Guild Wars 2

Wanze.8410:

Fred Fargone.3127:

Coulter.2315:

Ability to choose bad traits reduced by 99.8%.

If the traits were bad, just fix the traits. Don’t cripple the system.

That was the whole point of the change, its easier to balance now.

And forcing everyone play in very specific way would be even more easier to balance. And that’s the general direction we’re heading. I don’t like that.

I agree to a certain extent. If I want an optimal build that performs well in most situations the new system does that better. If I like to theorycraft and find that one gem in the sea of garbage then the old system worked well for that.

My only problem with the new system is that I feel most of my current builds are just clones of everyone else’s and I may as well be a robot behind the keyboard. I preferred the choice of experimentation myself; but then again there is only so much you can change in traits when 99% of all content is done with full zerkers anyways.

Coldtart.4785:

How is having ‘only’ 196830 options a ‘problem’? If you spent 1 hour playing each possible combination you would be playing 24/7 for 22.47 years. Are you seriously trying to say that there’s any difference in meaningful choices between 10^5 combinations and 10^7 combinations?

Because everyone has a way they like to play. I have less than 20 choices now to play the way I like. That gets old fast. Past 700 hours I burned through few hundred choices with the old system. I was supposed to still have several hundred to go before running out.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Gaaroth.2567:

Seriously? Mathematically you are right, didn’t run the calc my self, but the number is plausible.
Still, in that 100% you are counting 90% of utterly useless and non-sense builds (someone recall GW1 second class system? Same issue there)

Current system is FAR better…higher numbers mean squat if you can’t build, play and balance with ease.
So yeah 0,2% anyday.

Now we can argue that new traits need fix, but this is another story.

I specifically didn’t include the 200mil less viable builds. The 100 mil are each quite viable with max number of major traits and max number of synenergy between traits (due to being from the same line). Sure, there are some more viable builds and less viable builds, but in the new system, we don’t 200k equally viable builds either.

Imho they didnt cut freedom, we’ll never get all out of the current possible combination either, but at least now is easier, even stronger in some cases and more synergic with the rework. My 2 cents at least.

And despite a significant loss in theoreticaly possible combinations,the large majority of people play the same tired combos again and again, making even 100 combinations per class much too much… ^^

I’d rather have less traits available if it makes them all meaningful.

Gaaroth.2567:

Fred Fargone.3127:

Gaaroth.2567:

Seriously? Mathematically you are right, didn’t run the calc my self, but the number is plausible.
Still, in that 100% you are counting 90% of utterly useless and non-sense builds (someone recall GW1 second class system? Same issue there)

Current system is FAR better…higher numbers mean squat if you can’t build, play and balance with ease.
So yeah 0,2% anyday.

Now we can argue that new traits need fix, but this is another story.

I specifically didn’t include the 200mil less viable builds. The 100 mil are each quite viable with max number of major traits and max number of synenergy between traits (due to being from the same line). Sure, there are some more viable builds and less viable builds, but in the new system, we don’t 200k equally viable builds either.

Imho they didnt cut freedom, we’ll never get all out of the current possible combination either, but at least now is easier, even stronger in some cases and more synergic with the rework. My 2 cents at least.

How did they not cut freedom? For example, with the Tempest trait line, I just want the first minor trait, because the rest I have no use for and the first minor is a new F# mechanism. Old system, I could do that if I so wanted (I WANT TO), new system, I can’t.

Torolan.5816:

And despite a significant loss in theoreticaly possible combinations,the large majority of people play the same tired combos again and again, making even 100 combinations per class much too much… ^^

The problem isn’t everyone playing 100 million different styles.
The problem is that there used to be a style for everyone but isn’t any more.

OP, if this was such a hot topic, this forum would have been flooded with complaints. In case you haven’t noticed, this fan base isn’t bashful. They didn’t like the last trait system and they let Anet know.

While there has been a bit of grumbling about the new system, there’s been even more support. So while you may think you’re right, many disagree with you.

I personally have lost some builds I really liked in the change, but I’ve definitely found more builds I can use after the change.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Coldtart.4785:

How is having ‘only’ 196830 options a ‘problem’? If you spent 1 hour playing each possible combination you would be playing 24/7 for 22.47 years. Are you seriously trying to say that there’s any difference in meaningful choices between 10^5 combinations and 10^7 combinations?

Because everyone has a way they like to play. I have less than 20 choices now to play the way I like. That gets old fast. Past 700 hours I burned through few hundred choices with the old system. I was supposed to still have several hundred to go before running out.

So, you just play a build for an hour, or two and then change it to another one?

That is how you enjoy the game?

If so, I think you’re very unusual, because most people seem to pick a build that they think will suit their playstyle and then play it for ages, while trying to get the most out of it.

I’ve certainly never met anyone, before, who says they get their pleasure from the game from switching traits all day?

Vayne.8563:

While there has been a bit of grumbling about the new system, there’s been even more support. So while you may think you’re right, many disagree with you.

I know the math is right. The rest is opinion, and you can’t really tell someone their opinion is wrong. However, you’re free to disagree. Just like I am.

Vayne.8563:

I personally have lost some builds I really liked in the change, but I’ve definitely found more builds I can use after the change.

I haven’t :<
That’s why I’m rather miffed.

Fred Fargone you are just too late to the party. It’s been months and we discussed that to death already. The general concensus is that :

1) The new system give us less diversity
2) The new system give us more diversity in viable build
3) They could have just remove stats and improve trait to get both more viable build and keep the total diversity
4) They choose that way to improve the balance
5) Overall, even if this system is not perfect, it’s a better system than the old one.

It’s been several months and we never had as much different great build that work in the game. So we all know that not everything they did was a good idea, but in the end the new system work better than the old one. You can continue to rant, but the system won’t change. Like I said you are to late to the party.

Tigaseye.2047:

Fred Fargone.3127:

Coldtart.4785:

How is having ‘only’ 196830 options a ‘problem’? If you spent 1 hour playing each possible combination you would be playing 24/7 for 22.47 years. Are you seriously trying to say that there’s any difference in meaningful choices between 10^5 combinations and 10^7 combinations?

Because everyone has a way they like to play. I have less than 20 choices now to play the way I like. That gets old fast. Past 700 hours I burned through few hundred choices with the old system. I was supposed to still have several hundred to go before running out.

So, you just play a build for an hour, or two and then change it to another one?

That is how you enjoy the game?

If so, I think you’re very unusual, because most people seem to pick a build that they think will suit their playstyle and then play it for ages, while trying to get the most out of it.

I’ve certainly never met anyone, before, who says they get their pleasure from the game from switching traits all day?

The builds I’ve tried haven’t spread across the 700 hours evenly. I’ve tried some, then I’ve changed. Then I’ve found some I liked, I played those till I got bored. Then I tried some until I found one I liked.

Just want to point out that possible number of combinations does not mean equal number of viable builds. If you factor in:
- trait synergies
- traits blatantly being better than other two choices
- poor trait placement where there’s 0 competition between them
- inability to take two traits from same tier
- potential buggy traits

The number of possible builds is SIGNIFICANTLY lower. In single digits, actually.

Thaddeus.4891:

It’s been several months and we never had as much different great build that work in the game. So we all know that not everything they did was a good idea, but in the end the new system work better than the old one. You can continue to rant, but the system won’t change. Like I said you are to late to the party.

Doesn’t mean we can’t wish for more diversity. I’m not saying “roll it back”, I’m saying we should find a way to increase the amount of possible builds to suit everyone’s needs.

Zergs.9715:

Just want to point out that possible number of combinations does not mean equal number of viable builds. If you factor in:
- trait synergies
- traits blatantly being better than other two choices
- poor trait placement where there’s 0 competition between them
- inability to take two traits from same tier
- potential buggy traits

The number of possible builds is SIGNIFICANTLY lower. In single digits, actually.

I specifically didn’t include the 200mil useless builds. The 100mil are the more viable ones.

Oh, wait, did you meant the new system? Well, I was just trying to be fair

Fred Fargone.3127:

Tigaseye.2047:

Fred Fargone.3127:

Coldtart.4785:

How is having ‘only’ 196830 options a ‘problem’? If you spent 1 hour playing each possible combination you would be playing 24/7 for 22.47 years. Are you seriously trying to say that there’s any difference in meaningful choices between 10^5 combinations and 10^7 combinations?

Because everyone has a way they like to play. I have less than 20 choices now to play the way I like. That gets old fast. Past 700 hours I burned through few hundred choices with the old system. I was supposed to still have several hundred to go before running out.

So, you just play a build for an hour, or two and then change it to another one?

That is how you enjoy the game?

If so, I think you’re very unusual, because most people seem to pick a build that they think will suit their playstyle and then play it for ages, while trying to get the most out of it.

I’ve certainly never met anyone, before, who says they get their pleasure from the game from switching traits all day?

The builds I’ve tried haven’t spread across the 700 hours evenly. I’ve tried some, then I’ve changed. Then I’ve found some I liked, I played those till I got bored. Then I tried some until I found one I liked.

Oh, OK.

You are not accounting for a number of things here.

Many traits that were necessary to take for certain builds to be useful were frequently in very irritating places due to trait tree location i.e. level of the trait/or being on in the same tree as other traits that would make your build viable or optimal/the associated stats with the trait tree) are now baseline. (Since this question is asked often, baseline means it is now a part of your class/weapon and does not require a trait to make it so.)

Same thing as above for certain traits that are now rolled INTO the other traits that they should have been naturally paired with from the start.

The removal of stats from the trait lines also adds freedom of choice.

I will be among the most staunch and vehement to say that GW2 combat system is a shallow pool compared to the depth and breadth offered in the original Guild Wars. They were going for quality over quantity as well as removal of the ability to choose poorly in terms of build-skill combination that are not reasonable/viable and really did not hit the mark. In terms of comparison with the old game, they still aren’t even close- but again they went for that same philosophy with these changes and I think they did do better this time around.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Thaddeus.4891:

It’s been several months and we never had as much different great build that work in the game. So we all know that not everything they did was a good idea, but in the end the new system work better than the old one. You can continue to rant, but the system won’t change. Like I said you are to late to the party.

Doesn’t mean we can’t wish for more diversity. I’m not saying “roll it back”, I’m saying we should find a way to increase the amount of possible builds to suit everyone’s needs.

Yes they could. IMO it won’t improve the game, but it will decrease the balance. And I prefer having a better balance than adding a couple of thousand more useless build.

I wouldn’t spit on the possibility to use adept trait instead of a master, or a adept/master trait intead of a grandmaster. But even better would be just to make some fix to some trait so we always have 3 good options to choose from.

Maybe you should give it a couple of month to experience the system for real. A lot of people that I know and dislike the system, now like it. Keep in mind that if Anet does what you want, it won’t necessary improve the system. More build diversity doesn’t equal better because it decrease the balance in the game. 196 830 build, I’ll never try that much build.

Thaddeus.4891:

Yes they could. IMO it won’t improve the game, but it will decrease the balance. And I prefer having a better balance than adding a couple of thousand more useless build.

That, I think we’ll just have to disagree on.

Thaddeus.4891:

I wouldn’t spit on the possibility to use adept trait instead of a master, or a adept/master trait intead of a grandmaster. But even better would be just to make some fix to some trait so we always have 3 good options to choose from.

This. Exactly this. I was thinking along the same lines as well, and it’s mainly what I’m after. In retrospect, I suppose I should’ve included the suggestion in the OP instead of just a rant. But as I’m sure you can understand, I was a bit frustrated and not thinking quite so clearly.

Thaddeus.4891:

Maybe you should give it a couple of month to experience the system for real. A lot of people that I know and dislike the system, now like it. Keep in mind that if Anet does what you want, it won’t necessary improve the system. More build diversity doesn’t equal better because it decrease the balance in the game. 196 830 build, I’ll never try that much build.

That’s some sound advice, but I’ve now logged in the game 5 times, milled about a bit and just left. I don’t know, maybe it’ll pass.
And yeah, I’m not going to try 196k builds. It’s just that there are now almost no builds in the mix that I’d like to try. Having just 2 traits that I’d like on each trait line is kinda frustrating.

Zergs.9715:

Just want to point out that possible number of combinations does not mean equal number of viable builds. If you factor in:
- trait synergies
- traits blatantly being better than other two choices
- poor trait placement where there’s 0 competition between them
- inability to take two traits from same tier
- potential buggy traits

The number of possible builds is SIGNIFICANTLY lower. In single digits, actually.

All of the things you listed except the two traits from a same tier are shortcomings of ArenaNet and not the system. They are glacial at class/trait changes and didn’t want to put in the work to balance the traits/skills. Instead they simplified things and smashed traits together.

The number of possible viable builds is roughly the same, which is sad. The game needed MORE options, it needed ArenaNet to step up and balance/revamp traits and skills. This doesn’t set a good precedent either, what will they do about trait balancing now? Combine the 3 lines into 1? Combine lines into a single trait choice? Their balancing team has been an issue since the game released and it really needs to be looked at, more so than the trait system did.

Dovienya.6597:

You are not accounting for a number of things here.

Many traits that were necessary to take for certain builds to be useful were frequently in very irritating places due to trait tree location i.e. level of the trait/or being on in the same tree as other traits that would make your build viable or optimal/the associated stats with the trait tree) are now baseline. (Since this question is asked often, baseline means it is now a part of your class/weapon and does not require a trait to make it so.)

Same thing as above for certain traits that are now rolled INTO the other traits that they should have been naturally paired with from the start.

Well, to be fair, I did exclude 200mil possible builds and just claimed 100mil viable. Of course, there are more and less viable builds in the mix.
However, in the new system we have similar problems. Like instead of having traits in inconvenient locations, we now have locations with no convenient traits.

Dovienya.6597:

The removal of stats from the trait lines also adds freedom of choice.

Yes, I agree with you on that. And I’m not saying “roll it back”, I just want them to “make it better”.

Dovienya.6597:

I will be among the most staunch and vehement to say that GW2 combat system is a shallow pool compared to the depth and breadth offered in the original Guild Wars. They were going for quality over quantity as well as removal of the ability to choose poorly in terms of build-skill combination that are not reasonable/viable and really did not hit the mark. In terms of comparison with the old game, they still aren’t even close- but again they went for that same philosophy with these changes and I think they did do better this time around.

Yes, I do agree that that is a fact. Still, I’m hoping either drastically more weapons, or even a binary choice between each weapon skill.

Ive started to see this too since the whole trait changes. Now there are honestly only good choices and bad ones.

When you go to your job, can you work like how you want? When you go to school, can you do what you want? As such, in gw we have been boxed into real life methods contrary to the fantasy escape world it is suppose to be.

The logic is high in this game especially for a long bow to shoot farther than a rifle...

I have a good news : since 6 nCr 3 = 20, when HOT releases there will be a 100% increase of accessible builds for each profession!
Enjoy the future !

Ya I can understand Fred. I was kitten off at first too. But then, we started to see a lot of synergy between trait, a lot of new build of great quality emerged. We all have our personnal opinion on what should be in the game and anet can’t satisfied every single players.

But like I said, give it a try. Play with it a couple of months and you might grow to like it. One thing for sure, anet is all about the expansion now, so the system won’t change (And IMO shouldn’t change) before the expansion. One thing that can and should change is some fine tuning of the traits. There still some trait that are lacking or misplaced. Best exemple of that is Glacial Heart for guardian. It’s a great trait that people want to play, but can’t because of where it is. That’s where our feedback should concentrate right now, because I’m sure that this kind of information Anet will listen too because of course there will be a couple of balance patch before the expansion. They created a new build system and fixed the most urgent stuff like Mesmer, Symbolic Avenger, Grenadier, etc. But they will still improve the balance to be ready for the expansion.

Ranael.6423:

I have a good news : since 6 nCr 3 = 20, when HOT releases there will be a 100% increase of accessible builds for each profession!
Enjoy the future !

Yes, that is good

Possible builds don’t mean anything they have to be working after the spec patch we have MORE working builds than before so overall it’s a boost to build diversity and choice. More good/working builds is better than more possible builds.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Vayne.8563:

While there has been a bit of grumbling about the new system, there’s been even more support. So while you may think you’re right, many disagree with you.

I know the math is right. The rest is opinion, and you can’t really tell someone their opinion is wrong. However, you’re free to disagree. Just like I am.

Vayne.8563:

I personally have lost some builds I really liked in the change, but I’ve definitely found more builds I can use after the change.

I haven’t :<
That’s why I’m rather miffed.

Well no you’re coming here with words like “how can you guys let that happen?” those are your words not mine. I’m simply saying we can let it happen because it seems many of us, if not most of us, like this system better than the one that was replaced, and for me, even the original system.

The problem here is you’re not listening to the sound of your own post. If you just said, I don’t like it, I’d be fine. But once you ask how we could let it happen, obviously someone should point out that the majority do seem to like it. It’s a logical response.

As far as I can tell the trait changes INCREASED build diversity. Before the changes there was 1, maybe 2 viable builds per class.

Now there are 2-6 viable builds per class.

Before the change: 16-24 viable builds, total
After the change: 24-48 viable builds total

If you aren’t playing one of those builds then you probably aren’t qualified to be talking about balance or choices anyway. So for all the players that matter the change more than doubled the viable choices.

Fred Fargone.3127:

mtpelion.4562:

Fred Fargone.3127:

Coulter.2315:

Ability to choose bad traits reduced by 99.8%.

If the traits were bad, just fix the traits.

They did.

So why did they change the trait system then? Just for the fun of it?

Bad traits were a symptom of a bad trait system. Fix the system, fix the traits.

The funny thing is not only did we have this conversation back when the new set up was announced… we had it 20 months ago in the Horizontal progression CDI.

They know. Seriously, the class balance team knows. Obliterating choice so that players stop surprising them is the POINT. They got sick of unexpected permutations vastly over-performing. And having accomplished what they set out to do — create a system so simplistic that they could actually stay ahead of the metagame arms race — they ain’t going back.

Fred Fargone.3127:

EDIT: Just to be clear, my main grievance with the new system is that most of the time, I find my self with zero choices for one of the traits in otherwise fine line.

EDIT: And no, I’m not saying “Roll it back” I’m saying “Keep improving it. Maybe with bit more diversity next? Pretty please?”

EDIT: For example, in old system we had traits in inconvenient locations. Now we have locations with no convenient traits. I’d love if this was addressed by either ensuring that each trait is always viable and not bound to a weapon or skill type, OR if we could still choose other traits from the entire trait line incase we can’t find “grandmaster” trait that is usable for our build.

I know, it’s been some time since the trait update. I was having a break, and when I come back… How… why did you guys let ANet get away with this?

I’m not going to calculate every possible build for the old system, just interested in the more viable ones, that is, 2 maxed out with one major trait in third line, and 1 maxed out with 2 major traits in 2 lines. So there are some hundred million more builds than I’m numbering here. I also used quite a few builds with one maxed out traitline and rest at the first major trait each, but some would argue those builds are useless. Still, freedom to choose is freedom to choose.

So, the calculation for one traitline in the old system, is that you get to choose 1 out of 6 for the first trait, 1 out of 10 for the second except for the one you already picked, and 1 out of 12 for the third, except for the 2 you already picked. So the calculation is:
6*(10-1)(12-2) = 540
A traitline with 2 traits would be:
6*(10-1) = 54
A traitline with 1 trait would be:
6

For both cases, you get to pick 3 out of 5 traitlines:
(5 nCr 3) = 10
For both cases, you get to choose which of the 3 traitlines is the one with different amount of traits:
3

So, for the 2 maxed out, we’ll get:
10*3*6*540*540 = 52488000
And for the one with 1 maxed out:
10*3*54*54*540 = 47239200
So the old system with 3 trait lines chosen had
99727200 builds. Or, actually more since we’re not counting in cases where two lines have minor trait as their last choice.

So the old system with just 3 traitlines with points in them had 99727200 builds. That’s not even counting the builds with 4 or 5 chosen traitlines, or counting the builds with minor traits as last chosen traits, as people argue those are less viable builds. (They’re still a choice tho, but a figure as high as 99727200 is quite enough for this thread.)

Now the new system:
So the new system lets you select 3 traitlines out of 5.
(5 nCr 3) = 10
The new system let’s you select 1 out of 3 traits, then 1 out of 3 traits, and then 1 out of 3 traits for each trait line. That is
3*3*3 = 27
So the total number of builds available for the new system is…
10 * 27 * 27 * 27 = 196830
196830 total. The absolute total. There is no other possible trait combinations than that. Just 196830.

So now we have (1 – 196830 / 99727200) * 100 = 99.80 % reduction in freedom to choose. Actually, MORE than 99.8% due to all the builds I did not count. But they were a bit less viable, so who cares, right?

I’m not sure how I’m going to get over this. 99.8%? We have 0.2% of the freedom we used to have when it comes to builds. Now, I know, HoT will double the amount of possible builds there will be since they’re adding a whole new trait line. So we really lost “only” (more than) 99.6% of possible builds.

Couple that with the update to dailies and the fact that HoT will now have some weapons and F# abilities bound to traits… I’m starting to be worried that we’ll eventually just have 3 ways to play each profession in the future.

To Arenanet: I had a reply typed out but then this got merged and I lost what I had. Please do something about that.

The assumption that the number of possiblilities going from one huge number to another, slightly lower, huge number means it will eventually become just 3 is frankly ridiculous.

There were horrible choices made in the update that introduced the new trait system but the trait system itself was not one of them.
I’m not saying the new one is better (I’m not even sure which I prefer yet) but it’s far from as horrible as you try to make it seem.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Ranael.6423:

I have a good news : since 6 nCr 3 = 20, when HOT releases there will be a 100% increase of accessible builds for each profession!
Enjoy the future !

Yes, that is good

Edit: It’s important to not just use the 540 you have because almost half of those are repeating trait combinations. A I, II, III trait combination is the exact same as a III, II, I combination in different slots. Thus, it must be disregarded.

Fred, not sure where you got your numbers exactly, but you’re off by factors of hundreds. The actual total in the old system was 66,713,226 total combinations, which included all the variations of non-repeating trait combinations (6/6/2, 6/4/2/2, 6/3/3/2, etc.)

Your number about the total traits now being ~196,000 is correct though.

Please refer to this Google doc I made a couple of months ago. It has all the calculations built in already.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H9KAc7ghxmrxsq0bkWNALddKMkETmdQ1dW-eS7Xa8Hc/edit?usp=sharing

ANet could let us freely choose to attack other players in open-world PvE and that would be disastrous. They could let us freely choose our weapons, armor, level, profession, and race, and that would utterly destroy the role-playing and progression aspects of the game.

More choices isn’t always better. The game designer’s first obligation to their players is to deliver an experience, not to facilitate as many poor decisions as possible. All choices that players make within a game are necessarily curated (exploits notwithstanding) simply because the game designer must program those choices in. As such, the game designer is well within their rights to reduce the number of choices at a given stage if they believe doing so will create a richer experience.

20,000 build options is plenty. We don’t need a further 180,000 that suck.

Etienne.3049:

To Arenanet: I had a reply typed out but then this got merged and I lost what I had. Please do something about that.

Same. <Insert string of words that would be replaced by “kitten.”>

Thaddeus.4891:

Ya I can understand Fred. I was kitten off at first too. But then, we started to see a lot of synergy between trait, a lot of new build of great quality emerged. We all have our personnal opinion on what should be in the game and anet can’t satisfied every single players.

But like I said, give it a try. Play with it a couple of months and you might grow to like it. One thing for sure, anet is all about the expansion now, so the system won’t change (And IMO shouldn’t change) before the expansion. One thing that can and should change is some fine tuning of the traits. There still some trait that are lacking or misplaced. Best exemple of that is Glacial Heart for guardian. It’s a great trait that people want to play, but can’t because of where it is. That’s where our feedback should concentrate right now, because I’m sure that this kind of information Anet will listen too because of course there will be a couple of balance patch before the expansion. They created a new build system and fixed the most urgent stuff like Mesmer, Symbolic Avenger, Grenadier, etc. But they will still improve the balance to be ready for the expansion.

Y’know, you’re absolutely right. I’ll just try to grow to accept it. I was just shocked when I got back at the sheer number of builds we lost, but I guess I’ll get over it. I’m just hoping that ANet will give us few more skills than what we saw at fist BWE of HoT, I’d be just dandy then

And as someone else pointed out, I had done a slight miscalculation and included repeated builds. So it’s still shocking, not just quite so shocking.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Thaddeus.4891:

Ya I can understand Fred. I was kitten off at first too. But then, we started to see a lot of synergy between trait, a lot of new build of great quality emerged. We all have our personnal opinion on what should be in the game and anet can’t satisfied every single players.

But like I said, give it a try. Play with it a couple of months and you might grow to like it. One thing for sure, anet is all about the expansion now, so the system won’t change (And IMO shouldn’t change) before the expansion. One thing that can and should change is some fine tuning of the traits. There still some trait that are lacking or misplaced. Best exemple of that is Glacial Heart for guardian. It’s a great trait that people want to play, but can’t because of where it is. That’s where our feedback should concentrate right now, because I’m sure that this kind of information Anet will listen too because of course there will be a couple of balance patch before the expansion. They created a new build system and fixed the most urgent stuff like Mesmer, Symbolic Avenger, Grenadier, etc. But they will still improve the balance to be ready for the expansion.

Y’know, you’re absolutely right. I’ll just try to grow to accept it. I was just shocked when I got back at the sheer number of builds we lost, but I guess I’ll get over it. I’m just hoping that ANet will give us few more skills than what we saw at fist BWE of HoT, I’d be just dandy then

And as someone else pointed out, I had done a slight miscalculation and included repeated builds. So it’s still shocking, not just quite so shocking.

We didn’t lose builds, we lost useless trait combinations.

Fred Fargone.3127:

However, in the new system we have similar problems. Like instead of having traits in inconvenient locations, we now have locations with no convenient traits.

Conceded, absolutely.

This is more of a hassle now in certain circumstances, but this has always been a problem endemic to the trait system. Previously it was because you had that extra trait point, or 5 points in the old old system to spend, and no matter where it was spent there was nowhere that fit well with the build in question, or because you NEEDED that master trait and/or those attributes but none of other traits in the line (the number of choices not withstanding) fit the bill. NOW this happens because as you noted so eloquently, of the limited number of choices per level of trait per line.

I am not certain if it is because I used to spend more time trying to find viable builds in the old system that I’d run into spots where I chose useless traits, or perhaps bias because the system was around for longer, but it seems to me that the new system- while flawed, leads to less “useless trait” situations.

Bad. There are no rangers around anymore which is sad

the new trait system is bad . shame they wont fix it and make it so you can change your skills out and in . to what you want and need to use for what you are going for.

ham.8209:

the new trait system is bad . shame they wont fix it and make it so you can change your skills out and in . to what you want and need to use for what you are going for.

I don’t get this. You can change the traits and skill any time you want to adapt to any situation.

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

the new trait system is bad . shame they wont fix it and make it so you can change your skills out and in . to what you want and need to use for what you are going for.

I don’t get this. You can change the traits and skill any time you want to adapt to any situation.

iam not supersized at all you do not get this concept at all . but putting it like that yes and you could even do it if you was out side of a town . and not have to wait to do it. with a skill build loading system . where you safe your skill sets and you can load them when and where ever you need them . and you do not have to be in town to load them . bet that blows your kitten marbles out of the water huh LOL :P

Its vary bad,i quit doing WvW since that patch which broke everything.

ham.8209:

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

the new trait system is bad . shame they wont fix it and make it so you can change your skills out and in . to what you want and need to use for what you are going for.

I don’t get this. You can change the traits and skill any time you want to adapt to any situation.

iam not supersized at all you do not get this concept at all . but putting it like that yes and you could even do it if you was out side of a town . and not have to wait to do it. with a skill build loading system . where you safe your skill sets and you can load them when and where ever you need them . and you do not have to be in town to load them . bet that blows your kitten marbles out of the water huh LOL :P

I can change my skills and traits at any point I want even during a dungeon run, in fact when I’m doing dungeons on my Thief I might change my build 5-7 times. I don’t have to wait and I don’t have to be in town. Maybe you are talking about another game?

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

the new trait system is bad . shame they wont fix it and make it so you can change your skills out and in . to what you want and need to use for what you are going for.

I don’t get this. You can change the traits and skill any time you want to adapt to any situation.

iam not supersized at all you do not get this concept at all . but putting it like that yes and you could even do it if you was out side of a town . and not have to wait to do it. with a skill build loading system . where you safe your skill sets and you can load them when and where ever you need them . and you do not have to be in town to load them . bet that blows your kitten marbles out of the water huh LOL :P

I can change my skills and traits at any point I want even during a dungeon run, in fact when I’m doing dungeons on my Thief I might change my build 5-7 times. I don’t have to wait and I don’t have to be in town. Maybe you are talking about another game?

no you just think you can but you can not do that at all in this game. as it is impossible the way the game is set up now . to use necro or monk skills if your a warrior or thief . it just does not happen . sounds more like your thinking way to hard . you just do not get it . that is plain and clear . go play gw1 and then maybe you just might get it . but i doubt it .

ham.8209:

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

the new trait system is bad . shame they wont fix it and make it so you can change your skills out and in . to what you want and need to use for what you are going for.

I don’t get this. You can change the traits and skill any time you want to adapt to any situation.

iam not supersized at all you do not get this concept at all . but putting it like that yes and you could even do it if you was out side of a town . and not have to wait to do it. with a skill build loading system . where you safe your skill sets and you can load them when and where ever you need them . and you do not have to be in town to load them . bet that blows your kitten marbles out of the water huh LOL :P

I can change my skills and traits at any point I want even during a dungeon run, in fact when I’m doing dungeons on my Thief I might change my build 5-7 times. I don’t have to wait and I don’t have to be in town. Maybe you are talking about another game?

no you just think you can but you can not do that at all in this game. as it is impossible the way the game is set up now . to use necro or monk skills if your a warrior or thief . it just does not happen . sounds more like your thinking way to hard . you just do not get it . that is plain and clear . go play gw1 and then maybe you just might get it . but i doubt it .

There is no monk in the game… this really makes absolutely no sense.

If you haven’t noticed the “new trait system” is about the recent specialization change not a comparison between GW1 and GW2.

ham.8209:

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

the new trait system is bad . shame they wont fix it and make it so you can change your skills out and in . to what you want and need to use for what you are going for.

I don’t get this. You can change the traits and skill any time you want to adapt to any situation.

iam not supersized at all you do not get this concept at all . but putting it like that yes and you could even do it if you was out side of a town . and not have to wait to do it. with a skill build loading system . where you safe your skill sets and you can load them when and where ever you need them . and you do not have to be in town to load them . bet that blows your kitten marbles out of the water huh LOL :P

I can change my skills and traits at any point I want even during a dungeon run, in fact when I’m doing dungeons on my Thief I might change my build 5-7 times. I don’t have to wait and I don’t have to be in town. Maybe you are talking about another game?

no you just think you can but you can not do that at all in this game. as it is impossible the way the game is set up now . to use necro or monk skills if your a warrior or thief . it just does not happen . sounds more like your thinking way to hard . you just do not get it . that is plain and clear . go play gw1 and then maybe you just might get it . but i doubt it .

kitten did I read?

You do know that you’re on the GW2-forum and not on the GW1-forum? Because in GW2 it’s impossible for a class to use the skills of another class. Also GW2 doesn’t have Monks (and GW1 doesn’t have Thiefs, which makes your post even more confusing). What game are you talking about?

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

the new trait system is bad . shame they wont fix it and make it so you can change your skills out and in . to what you want and need to use for what you are going for.

I don’t get this. You can change the traits and skill any time you want to adapt to any situation.

iam not supersized at all you do not get this concept at all . but putting it like that yes and you could even do it if you was out side of a town . and not have to wait to do it. with a skill build loading system . where you safe your skill sets and you can load them when and where ever you need them . and you do not have to be in town to load them . bet that blows your kitten marbles out of the water huh LOL :P

I can change my skills and traits at any point I want even during a dungeon run, in fact when I’m doing dungeons on my Thief I might change my build 5-7 times. I don’t have to wait and I don’t have to be in town. Maybe you are talking about another game?

no you just think you can but you can not do that at all in this game. as it is impossible the way the game is set up now . to use necro or monk skills if your a warrior or thief . it just does not happen . sounds more like your thinking way to hard . you just do not get it . that is plain and clear . go play gw1 and then maybe you just might get it . but i doubt it .

There is no monk in the game… this really makes absolutely no sense.

If you haven’t noticed the “new trait system” is about the recent specialization change not a comparison between GW1 and GW2.

i see it all now very clear . oh well time to give up and go back to farming as no one will get it . no matter how you spell it out

BunjiKugashira.9754:

ham.8209:

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

maddoctor.2738:

ham.8209:

the new trait system is bad . shame they wont fix it and make it so you can change your skills out and in . to what you want and need to use for what you are going for.

I don’t get this. You can change the traits and skill any time you want to adapt to any situation.

iam not supersized at all you do not get this concept at all . but putting it like that yes and you could even do it if you was out side of a town . and not have to wait to do it. with a skill build loading system . where you safe your skill sets and you can load them when and where ever you need them . and you do not have to be in town to load them . bet that blows your kitten marbles out of the water huh LOL :P

I can change my skills and traits at any point I want even during a dungeon run, in fact when I’m doing dungeons on my Thief I might change my build 5-7 times. I don’t have to wait and I don’t have to be in town. Maybe you are talking about another game?

no you just think you can but you can not do that at all in this game. as it is impossible the way the game is set up now . to use necro or monk skills if your a warrior or thief . it just does not happen . sounds more like your thinking way to hard . you just do not get it . that is plain and clear . go play gw1 and then maybe you just might get it . but i doubt it .

kitten did I read?

You do know that you’re on the GW2-forum and not on the GW1-forum? Because in GW2 it’s impossible for a class to use the skills of another class. Also GW2 doesn’t have Monks (and GW1 doesn’t have Thiefs, which makes your post even more confusing). What game are you talking about?

in kitten this only proves my point.s at lest one is still able to have fun in this game by them selfs to a point .

I’m sorry to ask this stupid noob question. But, I am not really very smart on the whole trait and build system. I experiment.

But, it looks like, to me, that one of the complaints about the new trait system is that you can’t just pick the one trait you want from the line and move on to other traits you want because those other traits might be in a different line and you’re stuck with a whole trait line for the benefit of one particular trait you wanted.

But, are you taking into account that the skills in the trait line you didn’t want still do add some usefulness to your character?

Like on my Mesmer, there was a skill that allowed you to dodge and leave a clone behind you. I never picked that trait because I didn’t see it as useful as another trait I wanted.

But with this new trait system, I have the benefit of that trait as well as the ones I also wanted. So, now, 3x out of 5x when I dodge, I’m leaving that clone behind me and it’s very helpful to me when I’m trying to flee through places and drop mobs, whatnot. It’s great way to grab a quick clone to shatter to activate might or fury buffs on the fly … if the situation arises.

It seemed to me that so many players get on such a rigid platform for their builds and they don’t consider the minute benefits of other traits that weren’t worth traiting with before. I know you have all experimented, invested heavily in time, effort and gold to come up with the best build for your class/profession and are unhappy if you no longer have the flexibility to recreate that build now with the new trait system. That is a BIG down side to making such a large change in the game and the devs should have had that in mind when they did this.

I understand that players have the most successful builds that work best for them and their play style. That is a personal thing. Is it that some of you are just reluctant to change or is your build really diminished now because of the inflexibility of not being able to pick and chose only the traits you want?

My feeling right now is that I am happy with the new trait line because, one, it’s kind of simpler for me. I’m not as up on all the mechanics of builds as most of you are. So, it’s a simplified system for someone like me. And I am getting very good information in this thread that is helping me understand how to build my character better.

That’s why I say, sorry for this , stupid noob question about whether you are discounting the benefits of the traits you never wanted before now that you have some of them.

Electra.7530:

I’m sorry to ask this stupid noob question. But, I am not really very smart on the whole trait and build system. I experiment.

But, it looks like, to me, that one of the complaints about the new trait system is that you can’t just pick the one trait you want from the line and move on to other traits you want because those other traits might be in a different line and you’re stuck with a whole trait line for the benefit of one particular trait you wanted.

But, are you taking into account that the skills in the trait line you didn’t want still do add some usefulness to your character?

Like on my Mesmer, there was a skill that allowed you to dodge and leave a clone behind you. I never picked that trait because I didn’t see it as useful as another trait I wanted.

But with this new trait system, I have the benefit of that trait as well as the ones I also wanted. So, now, 3x out of 5x when I dodge, I’m leaving that clone behind me and it’s very helpful to me when I’m trying to flee through places and drop mobs, whatnot.

It seemed to me that so many players get on such a rigid platform for their builds and they don’t consider the minute benefits of other traits that weren’t worth traiting with before. I know you have all experimented, invested heavily in time, effort and gold to come up with the best build for your class/profession and are unhappy if you no longer have the flexibility to recreate that build now with the new trait system. That is a BIG down side to making such a large change in the game and the devs should have had that in mind when they did this.

I understand that players have the most successful builds that work best for them and their play style. That is a personal thing. Is it that some of you are just reluctant to change or is your build really diminished now because of the inflexibility of not being able to pick and chose only the traits you want?

My feeling right now is that I am happy with the new trait line because, one, it’s kind of simpler for me. I’m not as up on all the mechanics of builds as most of you are. So, it’s a simplified system for someone like me. And I am getting very good information in this thread that is helping me understand how to build my character better.

That’s why I say, sorry for this , stupid noob question about whether you are discounting the benefits of the traits you never wanted before now that you have some of them.

in the name of kittens some one who get,s it all . i think iam going to faint or cry now . if i can i will say this there is no noob questions . just questions not ask a bright mind is most impressive . sigh