New trait system Good or bad?
While many may find this as a scrubby complaint, or any other variation of insult; I simply wish to discuss the new trait system and find a consensus of whether the community is satisfied. Whereas I normally don’t use my time to post on forums, I must say that the new trait system is very disappointing. Not so much as the general understanding that humans don’t like change, but more along the lines that all classes have been weakened substantially. All of those little perks and buffs that came with a chosen class have been removed and many of the skills and complementary traits along a line are no longer usable together. I’ve only started this forum to say that personally I am not satisfied with the changes and neither is my guild. When a group of level 80s can go into Ascalonian Catacombs (a level 35 dungeon) and lose instantly to the first champ spider, it seems “balance” was not well achieved. Having started this game on the first Halloween of it’s existence, I’m sad to say much of the fun associated with dominating monsters and having a chance at soloing big bad champs is lost. The new system to me, is simply not a good move.
I’ve no problems with the new trait system. So far anyway. There isn’t much that bothers me about it.
From reading the forums for the last few days I think the AC issue has less to do with traits and more to do with the downscaling change. Or maybe a combination of both.
(and this is a gaming forum. your opening line has left you open for a greater possibility for insulted. just saying)
Fire up the Hyperbowl ma, we’re going to town!
Would you like some hard cheeze with your sad whine?
Would you like some hard cheeze with your sad whine?
I like it a lot. Seems much easier to navigate and understand. I like some of the new possibilities.
Also, you can find much discussion in one of the existing threads.
Good luck.
all classes have been weakened substantially.
No.
When a group of level 80s can go into Ascalonian Catacombs (a level 35 dungeon) and lose instantly to the first champ spider
That could happen before.
Most are disappointed in the loss of choice, at the same time most agree not having stats bound to lines is great. The specialization huggers were gained by turning the dps to 10 and making the game feel more optimized(i feel this more in pvp and wvw check threads). In reality it caused a lot of balance issues and bugs. When they fix those, all will be left is less choice!
As someone who was vocally against the past year and several months of a wrecked trait system, I have to say that this is much improved. I agree that most of your issues seem to stem from downscaling, rather than traits.
“Be angry about legendary weapons, sure, but what about the recent drought of content?”
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
Yeah downscaling is the problem, at least if you play like me alot in mid level areas.
Nearly all character feel nerfed there beside my engi. However when i went to
Frostgorge for Clawmag i noticed that he mobs there die as fast / faster than before
and also nearly as fast as mobs in Dredgehaunt or Timberline.
EVERY MMO is awesome until it is released then its unfinished. A month after release it just sucks.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.
I’m okay with the changes. I find I have, in most cases not all, more viable choices than I used to have.
Seems a bit like I’m being pushed into a shatter build with my mesmer, which isn’t my preference, but other than that, I’m okay with the changes.
all classes have been weakened substantially.
I have not seen any differences pre-patch and post-patch for my Elementalist. In fact, I don’t seem to feel there is any differences at all really.
In fact, I felt my Ele doing slightly better post-patch. But that’s just me.
But I think you probably need to wait for ANET to fix the major issues that was introduced in this patch first before making any judgement. And also hold off in making any changes to the equipment, until everything that is broken or OP has been ironed out by ANET.
But I do agree about traits that can’t be used together that players was able to use together in the old system. Well, I think this is ANET’s easy way to balance stuff, but it only makes players go with the minimum and maximum situation when selecting the traits. Many forumers have said it is a better system. I was at the beginning, but after a while I realized that it’s very restricting. Well, nothing much I can do about it if ANET wants to go with this system, I just learn to go with what works for my playstyle.
Just wait it out until a few patch later. Maybe it will get better. Hopefully.
all classes have been weakened substantially
Once upon a time, in PvE, my Thief had very limited means to gain Fury. There was one trait in Critical Strikes that would give 4 seconds of Fury on hitting an enemy below half health, with a 30 second cooldown. The Trickery trait line had Thrill of the Crime which could also grant Fury, but that wasn’t a good trait line to pick in PvE because of the poor stats associated with it. I had to accept that unless I was running with Warriors, Fury would be a boon I’d largely do without.
For the last two weeks, things have been different. Rather than the old major trait of 4 seconds of Fury each 30 seconds against 50% health, the Critical Strikes line now has a minor trait that gives 4 seconds of Fury each 10 seconds against foes under 90% health. On top of that, I get a new major trait that converts 10% of my Precision to Ferocity, and another new major trait that extends my Fury by 2 seconds each time I land a critical hit while under the effect of Fury, with a 2 second cooldown. The latter trait also boosts my Ferocity by 250 more.
I am scoring more critical hits and doing a lot more damage than I used to as a result.
I’m sorry that you haven’t figured out how to make a strong new build since the patch. The strong new builds are out there, though. As others have said, the issue might simply be the downscaling changes. Go run Citadel of Flame instead of Ascalonian Catacombs and see how you fare there.
Characters should be much stronger now than they were before.
While many may find this as a scrubby complaint, or any other variation of insult; I simply wish to discuss the new trait system and find a consensus of whether the community is satisfied.
That’s not going to happen. This community is too large and diverse to come to consensus about anything.
Whereas I normally don’t use my time to post on forums, I must say that the new trait system is very disappointing. Not so much as the general understanding that humans don’t like change, but more along the lines that all classes have been weakened substantially.
I guess you have not seen the massive complaints about damage having increased a lot with that patch. Weakened? You’re going to have to dive into specifics on that.
All of those little perks and buffs that came with a chosen class have been removed and many of the skills and complementary traits along a line are no longer usable together.
Many traits have been combined and players now get more traits than before. Others have been moved to generate some sense of opportunity cost. Care to comment on specifics? Regardless, saying that “all” of anything has been removed is simply not correct.
I’ve only started this forum to say that personally I am not satisfied with the changes and neither is my guild. When a group of level 80s can go into Ascalonian Catacombs (a level 35 dungeon) and lose instantly to the first champ spider, it seems “balance” was not well achieved.
This was not a result of the trait system, it was a result of adjustments to down-scaling. Correctly identifying the cause of your complaint is a key factor in making a case why what you want should be considered.
Having started this game on the first Halloween of it’s existence, I’m sad to say much of the fun associated with dominating monsters and having a chance at soloing big bad champs is lost. The new system to me, is simply not a good move.
Responses in italics, above.
I’m sorry you dislike the new trait system and other changes made to the game. Were you aware that many people who’ve posted on these forums considered the game to be ridiculously easy before the patch? Since that is indeed the case, any change in the direction of even a little bit more challenge in down-scaled areas is probably a good thing. It’s still possible to dominate monsters and solo big, bad champions in GW2. Perhaps if you were to plumb the depths of the new trait system and take the time to adjust to the way the game plays now, you can return to your halcyon days of being a badkitten.
(edited by IndigoSundown.5419)
If anything, I find the profs to be stronger now than before the patch. I’m still working my way through trying out new things, so I’m not ready to say that it’s better in all ways compared to the old system, with these exceptions
- Getting a choice of traits and skills to unlock is far better than the previous system and even the trait system in place at launch.
- For the first time, the game allows you to max traits & skills by L80, without map exploration.
- The traits and skills are organized more sensibly and there are better synergies than before. (Whether any of these “better” ones are meaningful…well, I’m still evaluating.)
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
There are some weird things, like spirit weapons and shattered aegis getting put in the same spot for guardians. Were cooldown reduced spirit shields applying shattered aegis with their activated ability really breaking the game enough that they deserved to be made mutually exclusive?
If this has all been said before i apologize, i’ve only been back in gw2 for 2 days now and havn’t seen any threads about what i’m going to say.
The trait system we have does not work. It is no where near an improvement and it does not allow more diversity in builds. The reasons why are pretty simple so i’m going to list the 3 major issues with it.
1.) Prior to the changes we were allowed to select traits from as many trees as we wanted. Now we are allowed to only select traits from 3 trees. It should be self explanatory on how this hurts diversity in builds and limits what we can do with our characters.
2.) Prior to the changes we were allowed to select traits from any tier at or below where our points where spent. (so if you traited 6 points into one tree you could select 3 traits from the first tier or 2 traits from the 2nd tier) Now we are forced into choosing one trait from each tier. This really hurts diversity in builds since it limits how we can / want to build our characters.
3.) Amount of traits have been reduced / changed / merged / moved. After looking through the traits a lot of it seems like the dev’s just picked traits out of a hat and merged / moved them that way. On top of that some of the traits have been removed which ruins some of the previous builds before these changes. In the end this entire move has really hurt diversity with builds.
The way traits are obtained is a lot more unique than before and i enjoy it. However the way traits work now is disappointing and it has put a huge limit to diversity in this game even more. I realize most everyone just followed the meta prior to these changes but there was at least enough options for players to find ways around the meta while still being successful. With the limit we have now; the meta will be even more popular and forceful on the players which in return is going to make combat even more bland since everyone is going to be using the same builds. For a game trying to promote esports this was a horrible route to take.
Edit:
tl;dr Anet “fixed” the previous trait system by removing its one issue (forced stat distribution) and replaced it with a new problem (forced trait distribution).
(edited by States.6387)
Lots of other threads about this but most of them are lost like 8-10 pages back. The trait system is okay. Yeah there are some big negatives but overall I don’t have an issue with it. You could look over those old threads if you like.
Many people are unhappy with them. Basically anet admitted they have limited player choice (my translation, dumbed down the game), but puzzlingly, they claim limiting choice is an improvement because now our fewer choices “matter more”. As a player in a game that expects massive amounts of time investment, I find choice is irreplaceable and that changing the game out from underneath people, causing significant annoyance in having to adjust and regear, is inexcusable.
I find this contrary to any concept of common sense or good game design. I used to think anet was one of the better studios…now I think they are mediocre at best, having just repeated some of the biggest mistakes I have ever seen in the industry.
It would have been fine if they were a little more careful with balance and had fixed some of the most useless skills, or added new ones along with new traits.
Many people are unhappy with them. Basically anet admitted they have limited player choice (my translation, dumbed down the game), but puzzlingly, they claim limiting choice is an improvement because now our fewer choices “matter more”. As a player in a game that expects massive amounts of time investment, I find choice is irreplaceable and that changing the game out from underneath people, causing significant annoyance in having to adjust and regear, is inexcusable.
I find this contrary to any concept of common sense or good game design. I used to think anet was one of the better studios…now I think they are mediocre at best, having just repeated some of the biggest mistakes I have ever seen in the industry.
They basically repeated what Blizzard did with their traits.
Blizzard: “Yes, fewer traits, but now they matter more!”
I know, there has to be balance for pvp, and in this game somewhat pve, and while I’m ok with the new system (its not bad), its just….boring.
Guess I’ll get my fix with PoE in customization…
I have no idea what you’re talking about. The new revamped trait system is far superior. Not only is it better but now they’ve made room for specializations. Soon we’ll have even more trees and traits to choose from.
As someone with 3600 hours played I’m so thankful they finally edited the traits. So many stat sets have become viable now.
Not only was the trait editing smart it was completely necessary going forward for specializations.
I’m extremely happy with the trait changes. They’re character progression now, not a gold or time sink. I think that not allowing us to double up on the tiers actually does make choosing the lines more meaningful. We now have access to more traits than we did previously in our old builds, and there are some balancing issues, but overall? The system is fantastic, in my opinion.
And, just in case, if you look at my posting history, you’ll see that I’m not one to shy away from voicing my dissent. I genuinely believe this is a superior system.
“Be angry about legendary weapons, sure, but what about the recent drought of content?”
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
Removing the stats from the traits was very good (although they will have to compensate with new gears). And I really feel like there is more viable builds now in most cases, which is good considering they have not really started balancing. The old system has had 3 years to improve/converge and I feel in many cases it did not offer as much viable variations as this one. So I am optimistic for this, and it was definitely needed to introduce elite specializations.
If you STILL think people are forced to run “meta” builds then clearly you dont understand the scope of what they did to traits. The majority of that being they merged similar traits together, no longer requiring people to take up an entire trait line just for a “single” buff (like guardian symbols previously did), moving traits to lines that made more sense, added and modified traits to provide more options.
Sure you can say they “limited diversity” because trait lines now have a total of 9 selections for each one. That just seriously discounts the fact that in those 9 traits, there’s several others rolled into them at the same time.
Explain to me how limiting customization in character builds is “far superior”
Explain how being forced to take a trait that does nothing for you or your build is “meaningful”. A lot of traits that were used in previous builds are scattered between all 5 trees now. That is not an improvement, it instead serves as a nerf to said builds regardless of them being op or not.
And no we do not have access to more traits, the previous system offered 70 the current one offers 60.
Not trying to come off rude but the evidence shows that this new system is inferior to what we had before. I already mentioned the way you acquire traits is better than how it was previously. However that does not excuse the way the system works once you acquire all those traits. The old system was perfectly fine regarding trait distribution. The only thing that was wrong with it was balance in the traits offered and forced stats in the trees and none of this was resolved with the new changes. On top of that you need to realize the forced meta that is going to come with this new trait system. People are going to have a lot harder time saying “you dont need to play meta” when its going to be shoved down our throats.
I’m extremely happy with the trait changes. They’re character progression now, not a gold or time sink. I think that not allowing us to double up on the tiers actually does make choosing the lines more meaningful. We now have access to more traits than we did previously in our old builds, and there are some balancing issues, but overall? The system is fantastic, in my opinion.
And, just in case, if you look at my posting history, you’ll see that I’m not one to shy away from voicing my dissent. I genuinely believe this is a superior system.
I agree. Some of the trait repositions were puzzling, some tiers in some lines are still burdened by having 3 niche traits (e.g., Guardian, Honor, Adept), However, I’d be ready to overlook a lot more than I actually have to because of the sentence I put bold on in Guhracie’s post.
Sure, ANet did not have to link the change to trait unlocks with the trait overhaul. However, the old iteration was badly in need of change. It was filled with bad or worthless traits, some of which have been removed. The old iteration also had many instances where higher tier traits had dubious value. There’s less of that now. I believe the complaints about not being as able to cherry-pick adept traits in multiple lines stem from the fact that some adept traits were way better than higher tier traits. The new iteration still has some dubious tier assignments, but it’s better than the old one in that regard.
Cant forget that they also merged traits that also affected similar things, such as, using your example, Writ of Persistence for guardians. IIRC, previously, it’s individual effects were spread out to 1 adept and 2 major traits in the same line.
If this has all been said before i apologize, i’ve only been back in gw2 for 2 days now and havn’t seen any threads about what i’m going to say.
The trait system we have does not work. It is no where near an improvement and it does not allow more diversity in builds. The reasons why are pretty simple so i’m going to list the 3 major issues with it.
1.) Prior to the changes we were allowed to select traits from as many trees as we wanted. Now we are allowed to only select traits from 3 trees. It should be self explanatory on how this hurts diversity in builds and limits what we can do with our characters.
2.) Prior to the changes we were allowed to select traits from any tier at or below where our points where spent. (so if you traited 6 points into one tree you could select 3 traits from the first tier or 2 traits from the 2nd tier) Now we are forced into choosing one trait from each tier. This really hurts diversity in builds since it limits how we can / want to build our characters.
3.) Amount of traits have been reduced / changed / merged / moved. After looking through the traits a lot of it seems like the dev’s just picked traits out of a hat and merged / moved them that way. On top of that some of the traits have been removed which ruins some of the previous builds before these changes. In the end this entire move has really hurt diversity with builds.
The way traits are obtained is a lot more unique than before and i enjoy it. However the way traits work now is disappointing and it has put a huge limit to diversity in this game even more. I realize most everyone just followed the meta prior to these changes but there was at least enough options for players to find ways around the meta while still being successful. With the limit we have now; the meta will be even more popular and forceful on the players which in return is going to make combat even more bland since everyone is going to be using the same builds. For a game trying to promote esports this was a horrible route to take.
#DealWithIt
ANET is never going to change back to the old system nor will be change it again. This system was done so that they can get their eSport PVP up and running. They seriously did not bother to fix bugs on the PvE maps. These bugs that are there since 2 – 3 years ago. Until now you still can see those bugs in the PvE maps. And ANET’s reason for unable to fix these bugs? Because it is complex and hard to fix…yadda,yadda.. Yet they spend their resources on putting up a new trait system that looks great, but the reality is that this new trait system really is all about the balancing workload. Probably no more overtime given when a patch that screws up balance in PvP will be fix during working hours and not extended working hours.
So, seriously, just deal with it. The current system. I know I did. But then again, my main character’s build wasn’t impacted much by the trait system changes as I wasn’t running meta in the first place. So, all good for me.
If this has all been said before i apologize, i’ve only been back in gw2 for 2 days now and havn’t seen any threads about what i’m going to say.
The trait system we have does not work. It is no where near an improvement and it does not allow more diversity in builds. The reasons why are pretty simple so i’m going to list the 3 major issues with it.
1.) Prior to the changes we were allowed to select traits from as many trees as we wanted. Now we are allowed to only select traits from 3 trees. It should be self explanatory on how this hurts diversity in builds and limits what we can do with our characters.
2.) Prior to the changes we were allowed to select traits from any tier at or below where our points where spent. (so if you traited 6 points into one tree you could select 3 traits from the first tier or 2 traits from the 2nd tier) Now we are forced into choosing one trait from each tier. This really hurts diversity in builds since it limits how we can / want to build our characters.
3.) Amount of traits have been reduced / changed / merged / moved. After looking through the traits a lot of it seems like the dev’s just picked traits out of a hat and merged / moved them that way. On top of that some of the traits have been removed which ruins some of the previous builds before these changes. In the end this entire move has really hurt diversity with builds.
The way traits are obtained is a lot more unique than before and i enjoy it. However the way traits work now is disappointing and it has put a huge limit to diversity in this game even more. I realize most everyone just followed the meta prior to these changes but there was at least enough options for players to find ways around the meta while still being successful. With the limit we have now; the meta will be even more popular and forceful on the players which in return is going to make combat even more bland since everyone is going to be using the same builds. For a game trying to promote esports this was a horrible route to take.
#DealWithIt
ANET is never going to change back to the old system nor will be change it again. This system was done so that they can get their eSport PVP up and running. They seriously did not bother to fix bugs on the PvE maps. These bugs that are there since 2 – 3 years ago. Until now you still can see those bugs in the PvE maps. And ANET’s reason for unable to fix these bugs? Because it is complex and hard to fix…yadda,yadda.. Yet they spend their resources on putting up a new trait system that looks great, but the reality is that this new trait system really is all about the balancing workload. Probably no more overtime given when a patch that screws up balance in PvP will be fix during working hours and not extended working hours.
So, seriously, just deal with it. The current system. I know I did. But then again, my main character’s build wasn’t impacted much by the trait system changes as I wasn’t running meta in the first place. So, all good for me.
Yes we should just “deal with it”. The exact type of mentality that has lead to destruction of many games. If only more players had this type of mentality then the gw2 dev team would have a much easier life since they would never have to worry about the millions of mistakes they constantly make.
You might have had a point if the trait change was a mistake.
… The old iteration also had many instances where higher tier traits had dubious value. There’s less of that now. I believe the complaints about not being as able to cherry-pick adept traits in multiple lines stem from the fact that some adept traits were way better than higher tier traits. The new iteration still has some dubious tier assignments, but it’s better than the old one in that regard.
Well, Adept, Master or Grandmaster doesn’t matter anymore. While higher-tier traits were more expensive in the old system, in the new one a grandmaster-trait is the same as an adept-trait: you choose the trait-line and get everything. Every trait comes at the price of having to pick the corresponding line now.
Over all I find the new system superior. It still needs some work in my opinion, but it has almost universally given me better builds in every profession.
they use the word “specialization” for a reason, as oppose to diversification …..
Cutie Phantasmer/Farinas [HAX] – CD Casual
Archeage = Farmville with PK
Archeage = Farmville with PK
The new system work just fine because Arenanet can’t do no wrong. Everyone complaining are just noobs that need to l2p.
//sarcasm off
In my opinion trait changes were ok:
Meta was based for a big part upon attributes from trait lines generally requiring 4-6 points in the trait lines giving poer anf precision and all too often having the last one in ferocity. the most suitable traits were then selected from these lines…
This effectively killed a lot of builds before any looks were given to other trait lines.
The fact the points have been removed is a good thing, and condition dmg has been adjusted. HOWEVER HEALING has been completely forgotten, most healing skills have been nerfed due to support builds losing 300 healing power, but NO EFFORT was made to improve scaling on healing… No, you need traits to get back some of your healing and the other 150 points just went up in smoke. Most healing skills are not actually buffed much by healing and if they are 1000 healing gives a minute amount of return 10 points per regen tick or 5 points per hiit on vampiric, where 1000 ferocity gives +33% DPS on ALL output, 1000 condition dmg makes for a VERY decent hybrid. Also the fact combat go a faster pace means the healing is now lacking due to the fact heals cannot do enough healing to matter, healing cannot be procced often enough COMPARED TO THE OLD SITUATION. And no I’m not looking for a full healer spec, but my 4 characters in zealot or clerics have way less influence losing dozens if not hundreds of points of healing/second which are now a waste of stats. And saying the signet for guards made it better is laughable. In any case the time lost casting a healing spell should be worth the loss of damage and it isn’t EVEN WHEN YOU HEAL 5 PPL 100%! The only valid heals are the heals on dodge (ele, guard) al others cost a lot of dmg and the amount of healing gained is often lost in the duration it takes to use the skill Healing power still is a minor factor in all heals.
When looking at things now the trait lines are again searched out with 1 purpose: finding as much DAMAGE coefficients as possible…
The builds are now more effective due to the fact most smaller traits have been merged, it saves me 1-3 traits a build and I have more traits, I also noticed traits are more powerfull combined, especially on builds that were non zerk beore, though a number of things have suffered.
Due to the rise of combat pace, healing and condi clear are now (mostly) USELESS, when fighting a dungeon boss now downscaled I can get oneshoted easily especially on low healthpool characters. in AC you run 3.1k HP now with glass builds, spider queen does more in most attacks. so EITHER YOU DODGE OR YOU DIE. you can do 100k dmg but if you cannot get it on the battlefield it is mostly harmless.. So it became Alpha… only with another skin.
The speed of combat also makes any skill with more then 2 seconds channel is effectively a deathsentence to yourself, make that: a suicide skill. The new signet for guardians asks for 4,25 seconds of just standing there. In wvw 4.25 seconds = dead target,, in dungeon 4,25 = dead, target, in pve in groups (temples or big events it has a good chance too kill you as well…) and in all cases you suicided yorself to help.
Due to the fact ppl have 60% of the traits available (50% soon) makes the similarities betwen builds quite extreme..Looking at the same class you are guaranteed to have at least 1 similar trat line at the moment, and maybe he uses adifferent build the minors will always be the same. diversity wwill increasse a little but as some traits are bound to power some to support and some to condition builds a normal build is easily derived.
I think the changes are a goodthing but some adjustments need to follow
my 3 suggestions
1 rebalance healing as a stat
2 rethink condition removal (recharge and amount ) I play a lot of power/condi hybrids and condition builds as well. and spamming ppl with 3,4,5 or more conditions will finish them way more effectively then DPS due to the fact they cannot cleanse. people can clean 1 maybe 2 conditions 2 times in 20 seconds and will die.
3 Rework ALL 3 and 4 second long channels, 2.5 is still too much. IMHO seconds is a guaranteed interupt by mesmers, thieves and others needing interupts for thier builds. Those skills ae powerfull, yes, but effectively a waste of slots as you can never proc them as the windows of opportunity are equaly small (resbanner on downeds? 2,5 seconds, stomp? ) 5 ppl on low health, affected by conditions and wanting to heal? 4,5 seconds later they are all DEAD, especially in dungeons, especially when ppl cannot use other heals and you use your elite as last resort. (oh and I use feel my wrath on all healing builds as the elite heal is unreliable with a 10 sec interval and the active is useless due to the time it takes to proc being a signet it will lose effectivenees until recharged…
The loss of some diversity is an exageration and cannot be helped and In my opinion it doesn’t mattter.
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
(edited by PaxTheGreatOne.9472)
Hmm, I never really have a problem casting meteor-shower, which is the skill with the longest cast-time in my build. Of course it’s risky and often I have to cancel the cast in order to dodge, but I don’t mind since it’s a high risk high reward skill.
Hmm, I never really have a problem casting meteor-shower, which is the skill with the longest cast-time in my build. Of course it’s risky and often I have to cancel the cast in order to dodge, but I don’t mind since it’s a high risk high reward skill.
I usually timed it to cast and press 4 to dodge about 75% of the channeling done when there is too much heat. Most of the time the meteor shower would have already been cast. You may lose a few meteor, but it still does the job. Well, unless some noob uses knockbacks. ….. (PvE) btw.
The Trait Changes did absolutely nothing to hurt your so-called “Build Diversity”.
Go check Metabattle and you’ll see a dozen new builds under just about any category, then come back and say that Diversity’s dead.
They culled out or combined a load of traits that were useless (But for some reason forgot the Fall Damage Traits, though I suspect that has something to do with the coming HoT Content.) and streamlined the Specializations something neatly.
Some old combinations no longer work, but in return we’ve gotten an equal amount of new combinations to play around with and test out.
Diversity is the exact same as before. Go ahead, name any profession and Stat combo and I’ll whip up 3 different builds for you, just like that.
Warrior – Wardancer | Guardian – Lorekeeper | Revenant – Vindicator |
Thief – Duelist | Ranger – Strider | Engineer – Technician |
Elementalist – Spellweaver | Necromancer – Warlock | Mesmer – Trickster |
Thief – Duelist | Ranger – Strider | Engineer – Technician |
Elementalist – Spellweaver | Necromancer – Warlock | Mesmer – Trickster |
The Trait Changes did absolutely nothing to hurt your so-called “Build Diversity”.
Go check Metabattle and you’ll see a dozen new builds under just about any category, then come back and say that Diversity’s dead.They culled out or combined a load of traits that were useless (But for some reason forgot the Fall Damage Traits, though I suspect that has something to do with the coming HoT Content.) and streamlined the Specializations something neatly.
Some old combinations no longer work, but in return we’ve gotten an equal amount of new combinations to play around with and test out.
Diversity is the exact same as before. Go ahead, name any profession and Stat combo and I’ll whip up 3 different builds for you, just like that.
if he asked you to name 5 each? or 10 each?
I have no idea what you’re talking about. The new revamped trait system is far superior. Not only is it better but now they’ve made room for specializations. Soon we’ll have even more trees and traits to choose from.
As someone with 3600 hours played I’m so thankful they finally edited the traits. So many stat sets have become viable now.
Not only was the trait editing smart it was completely necessary going forward for specializations.
I agree. I like the new way better than the old and I too have been around since the beginning. What I don’t like is that we can’t re-trait before level 80 but at level 80 everything is open anyway.
Guild Leader of The Black Court, we’re small, friendly and active.
The Trait Changes did absolutely nothing to hurt your so-called “Build Diversity”.
Go check Metabattle and you’ll see a dozen new builds under just about any category, then come back and say that Diversity’s dead.They culled out or combined a load of traits that were useless (But for some reason forgot the Fall Damage Traits, though I suspect that has something to do with the coming HoT Content.) and streamlined the Specializations something neatly.
Some old combinations no longer work, but in return we’ve gotten an equal amount of new combinations to play around with and test out.
Diversity is the exact same as before. Go ahead, name any profession and Stat combo and I’ll whip up 3 different builds for you, just like that.
Fall damage traits are used all the time in WvW, and also for people who regularly do jumping puzzles. You might not find them very useful but I’ve used them in a whole lot of builds.
The Trait Changes did absolutely nothing to hurt your so-called “Build Diversity”.
Go check Metabattle and you’ll see a dozen new builds under just about any category, then come back and say that Diversity’s dead.They culled out or combined a load of traits that were useless (But for some reason forgot the Fall Damage Traits, though I suspect that has something to do with the coming HoT Content.) and streamlined the Specializations something neatly.
Some old combinations no longer work, but in return we’ve gotten an equal amount of new combinations to play around with and test out.
Diversity is the exact same as before. Go ahead, name any profession and Stat combo and I’ll whip up 3 different builds for you, just like that.
Your honestly going to lie to yourself and say that limiting the way we trait our characters is not hurting the diversity in builds? Do you also believe 2+2 = 5?
Sure there might be more viable options for some classes now but that is because of buffs / alterations to some of the traits and not because of the way the trait system was revamped. If you were to remove the buffs/ alterations to the traits and then compare the previous trait system to the current one; you would easily be able to see the problems with the current one. And that is what i’m trying to address.
As for builds i dont need to give you anything because i know you cant build everything. The mettabattle website you think is so amazing contains a lot of builds for a couple classes while the rest have a few. Not to mention that many of the builds on there are all listed as “test” builds meaning they might not even be effective or useful. I mean what happened to the tanky necros? Surely if this new trait system has not hurt build diversity it wouldnt of completely removed a playstyle for one of the classes
Explain to me how limiting customization in character builds is “far superior”
Look at it this way. Let’s say you went to an icecream store and they had 50 types of toppings! Wow so many options! You have chocolate sprinkles, fudge, whipped cream, rainbow sprinkles, gummy bears, and then you get further down the line and you see they have anchovies, potato, rice, cilantro, hot sauce. You see where I’m going with this? The previous trait system had a lot of traits no one used. There were clearly better traits than others and combined with the GW2 meta it meant that most trait builds were never actually utilized.
I mean why keep a system that people don’t actually use. So they actually IMPROVED the system. They technically reduced the number of toppings available to choose from, but made the remaining toppings so much better.
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
The Trait Changes did absolutely nothing to hurt your so-called “Build Diversity”.
Go check Metabattle and you’ll see a dozen new builds under just about any category, then come back and say that Diversity’s dead.They culled out or combined a load of traits that were useless (But for some reason forgot the Fall Damage Traits, though I suspect that has something to do with the coming HoT Content.) and streamlined the Specializations something neatly.
Some old combinations no longer work, but in return we’ve gotten an equal amount of new combinations to play around with and test out.
Diversity is the exact same as before. Go ahead, name any profession and Stat combo and I’ll whip up 3 different builds for you, just like that.
Your honestly going to lie to yourself and say that limiting the way we trait our characters is not hurting the diversity in builds? Do you also believe 2+2 = 5?
Sure there might be more viable options for some classes now but that is because of buffs / alterations to some of the traits and not because of the way the trait system was revamped. If you were to remove the buffs/ alterations to the traits and then compare the previous trait system to the current one; you would easily be able to see the problems with the current one. And that is what i’m trying to address.
As for builds i dont need to give you anything because i know you cant build everything. The mettabattle website you think is so amazing contains a lot of builds for a couple classes while the rest have a few. Not to mention that many of the builds on there are all listed as “test” builds meaning they might not even be effective or useful. I mean what happened to the tanky necros? Surely if this new trait system has not hurt build diversity it wouldnt of completely removed a playstyle for one of the classes
Alright, one by one here:
1. For there to be Diversity, all options must fill some sort of function else they’ll be ignored and unused, otherwise those options are just dead ends that won’t lead to anything, least of all “diversity”. This was the case with many of the old and useless traits. In other words, Options != Diversity, while Viable Options = Diversity
2. More Viable Options, you say? Why, see my previous point. But I won’t say that Diversity has increased, though it hasn’t decreased either. It’s about on the same level as before.
3. The whole POINT of condensing traits together WAS to buff them so that they’d be more useful to players. So that we wouldn’t be stuck with a bunch of useless traits that noone ever used.
4. Metabattle doesn’t toss together every possible build there is for your convenience, they merely list the most efficient ones. If you’d actually Look Up some of those builds, you’d find that there are often several variations of the builds using different Utility Skills, Traits (Sometimes Specializations), Weapons, Runes and Sigils.
5. Tanky Necros? They’re in a better Place now than ever before. Try out Corrupter’s Fervor with Scepter and you’ll sit at +300 Toughness and -20% Condi. Duration. Or why not make a Minionmancer with the new 2 Traits that you need, which are both in the same Specialization and NOT spread all over the grid so that you had to spend half your points into places you don’t need.
Or you could try a Death Shroud tanky-build using Foot in the Grave and Unholy Sanctuary. Or why not a Siphon build with Wells and Daggers?
That’s 4 different builds-
TL;DR – Diversity remains the same as it ever was. Some builds are gone, new builds are available.
Warrior – Wardancer | Guardian – Lorekeeper | Revenant – Vindicator |
Thief – Duelist | Ranger – Strider | Engineer – Technician |
Elementalist – Spellweaver | Necromancer – Warlock | Mesmer – Trickster |
Thief – Duelist | Ranger – Strider | Engineer – Technician |
Elementalist – Spellweaver | Necromancer – Warlock | Mesmer – Trickster |
I like the new Trait interface but have to say a lot of the organization of traits is what’s caused problems. For many of us we had certain types of builds, and now the traits that made that build work are spread across 4 or 5 specializations.
I can see where some people like it.
“It didn’t effect my build”
“No one used them” (really? if no one used them why are they complaining about no longer being able to use them?)
They weren’t perfectly min/max optimized (not everyone cares, many play for, you know, fun, cause, well, it’s a game, and were perfectly happy using a build that was fun and good)
I don’t think this was as amazing an update as people want to convince themselves.
“The short answer is that new content is not going to drive people away from the game.
There is absolutely no evidence to support that it would.” -AnthonyOrdon
There is absolutely no evidence to support that it would.” -AnthonyOrdon
Oh alot of us see what you’re saying, it’s just we know Arena Net doesn’t care. This was just another update taking away choice from the end user, which clearly is their agenda these days.
Explain how being forced to take a trait that does nothing for you or your build is “meaningful”. A lot of traits that were used in previous builds are scattered between all 5 trees now. That is not an improvement, it instead serves as a nerf to said builds regardless of them being op or not.
And no we do not have access to more traits, the previous system offered 70 the current one offers 60.
Do you mean like how we used to have to take traits we didn’t really want just to get the 1 good grandmaster trait at the end that we actually wanted? Or how we had to take a line with stats we didn’t want to get a trait we needed? Don’t pretend we weren’t forced to take traits we didn’t want before, if anything the new trait lines have lessened this.
Ever hear the phrase “less is more”? Sure, there are less traits now, but now you can go fully into 3 lines instead of 2 and then trying to figure out where you wanted to shove the rest of your points. And because of this, when you distribute your points, you do have access to more traits. Before you got 7 major and 7 minor. Now you get 9 of each. And I’d rather have more viable builds and fewer options overall, then 1 viable build and 1000 non-viable builds.
And nothing lasts forever in an MMO, builds are always going to be getting changed/tweaked/buffed/nerfed. As you said, you’ve been back for 2 days. Maybe you should give it a little more time. I’ve been gone for 2 years, and I was surprised things hadn’t changed more since I was away.
Tarnished Coast
Counterargument why this is not a bad thing:
The devs have previously not managed to add meaning to all traits.
Looking at the new traits, they are again struggling to add meaning to them all.
If we now have less diversity, but still struggle to add meaning to the options we have, how would having more options again be helpful? If anything we’re not far enough down yet.
I’m not disputing that it’s a loss of diversity, but until all options we have (be that X total options), adding an option X+1 doesn’t seem sensible. There’s no room needed to grow, we aren’t filling out the current (smaller!) one yet.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
As long as I dont have to unlock traits via doing things randomly about the world I dont care what trait system is in play
Alright, one by one here:
1. For there to be Diversity, all options must fill some sort of function else they’ll be ignored and unused, otherwise those options are just dead ends that won’t lead to anything, least of all “diversity”. This was the case with many of the old and useless traits. In other words, Options != Diversity, while Viable Options = Diversity
2. More Viable Options, you say? Why, see my previous point. But I won’t say that Diversity has increased, though it hasn’t decreased either. It’s about on the same level as before.
3. The whole POINT of condensing traits together WAS to buff them so that they’d be more useful to players. So that we wouldn’t be stuck with a bunch of useless traits that noone ever used.
4. Metabattle doesn’t toss together every possible build there is for your convenience, they merely list the most efficient ones. If you’d actually Look Up some of those builds, you’d find that there are often several variations of the builds using different Utility Skills, Traits (Sometimes Specializations), Weapons, Runes and Sigils.
5. Tanky Necros? They’re in a better Place now than ever before. Try out Corrupter’s Fervor with Scepter and you’ll sit at +300 Toughness and -20% Condi. Duration. Or why not make a Minionmancer with the new 2 Traits that you need, which are both in the same Specialization and NOT spread all over the grid so that you had to spend half your points into places you don’t need.
Or you could try a Death Shroud tanky-build using Foot in the Grave and Unholy Sanctuary. Or why not a Siphon build with Wells and Daggers?That’s 4 different builds-
TL;DR – Diversity remains the same as it ever was. Some builds are gone, new builds are available.
Your basing your argument off the assumption that people did not use all the traits from the old system. That is extremely incorrect. Maybe you did not use all the traits in the previous system? But then again your also not the entire community nor are you an example of how the entire community plays this game.
Furthermore your trying to defend your argument against the new trait system by bringing up the traits themselves. These are two separate things….
Your obviously having trouble understanding the way the system works because your blinded by the changes to traits themselves. So to make things easier do this.
1.) Ignore the effects on all the traits. Instead just label each one with a number
2.) By looking at all the traits that now just have a number, see how many different combinations you can create with this new trait system
3.) Now look at the old trait system and label each of those traits with a number
4. ) See how many different combinations you can create with the old system
5.) compare the results
You should be able to easily see that the old system offered a much larger variety of builds. The issue of some of the traits being weaker than others or unused by some is an issue of balance which is a separate issue from the trait system.
As for the traits themselves; a lot of them had no need to be removed or altered. Look at the ranger for example. The power ranger lost a massive amount of damage due to some of the traits being altered in a wrong way. However i realize what should and should not be changed or removed is controversial since balance can be interpreted differently through others minds.
The 4 different builds you posted are complete garbage to what the necro tank could do before. The survivability on them are no where near as high as before and the damage has taken a step down. The necro tank before was able to spec for spectral abilities and maintain a constant death shroud. Every time you got low or ran out you only had to come out and wait till death shroud came off cd to go back into it at 100%. But seeing as how you listed minionmancer as a possible tank spec for the current trait system i’m guessing you have little knowledge on necros (since minionmancers are complete s***, always have been and always will be)
~snippy snip~
There was a thread I participated a while back that calculated all the different trait combinations possible and the number of builds available.
The old system had ~66,700,00 different, unique build combinations per class
The new system has ~196,000 different, unique build combinations per class
Most of these variants were lost from the 6/4/2/2 variant no longer being able to be made, which accounted for over 19 million of the 66.7 million by itself.
There are far fewer options now, but having that many options is not at all ideal from a balance perspective. You also can’t just ignore the effects of the traits. Many of the traits got merged together, so if you want to get really technical, what was once in the old system may amount to certain builds now having “more” traits than before. Numbers alone mean nothing without context.
Also, your opinion on Necromancer survival is merely that; an opinion (backed by mere anecdotal evidence at best). There are indeed Necromancers that can still keep Death Shroud maxed, popping in and out as needed and never dying on point. Unless you go out and try the builds they listed, then it would be hard for anybody to take what you said seriously.
Edit: Here is the link to the Google Doc where is have the calculations:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H9KAc7ghxmrxsq0bkWNALddKMkETmdQ1dW-eS7Xa8Hc/edit?usp=sharing