(edited by HiddenNick.7206)
No Gear Treadmills = Endless Grind
I think it really comes down to personal preference and what you’re used to.
Before GW2 I played single-player RPGs mainly, except for GW1 and UO about 10 years ago. So I’ve never really thought of new gear as a reward. It is literally equipment to me: I want better stats to make achieving my goals easier, but its not a goal in it’s own right.
I’d never do a dungeon or whatever purely to get the gear at the end. I’d do it to experience the dungeon and to have fun playing through it.
What’s good about this system is that it gives you more choice. You don’t have to do dungeons in order because you need gear from one to play the next, you don’t have to get full exotics before you can do PvP, if you’re away for a month you’re not going to have to rush to catch up with your friends because they’ve all got better gear than you. (Ok you will be behind on laurels, assuming you’re getting them regularly, but that’s not a big deal because as people are discovering you can get the Ascended items from laurels relatively quickly, and you can still play with your friends without them.)
Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).
“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”
“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”
(edited by Danikat.8537)
This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games. Like Danikat said, there are a lot of people that play video games for the content and the challenge of that content, rather than for the rewards. GW1 was particularly good at that aspect while having virtually no vertical progression, which is something that ArenaNet did much differently than any other MMO.
This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.
Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!
This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.
Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!
The progression is stagnant. You’re not actually getting stronger, you’re just coming up to par with whatever the top happens to be at that step in the treadmill.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.
Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!
Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.
Think of it this way, let’s say your gear power is a 3 on a scale from 1 to 10 and the encounter difficulty on a scale from 1 to 10. That’s a 1:1 ratio of gear power to encounter difficulty. If you get new gear and it is a 4 and your next encounter is a 4, then you still have a 1:1 ratio. The only thing that gets bigger are the numbers that pop up for damage, and the hidden hit points of the mobs you are attacking.
So, while there is perceived progression, there is really none. It is still a 1:1 ratio.
It doesn’t have to work just for 1:1 ratios either, you can have any ratio, but the gear largely has nothing to do with anything except making you feel more powerful. The only way you are more powerful is because in an MMO you compare yourself to the rest of the population. And, compared to the population, you are more powerful, but at the expense of creating a barrier for the lower population to enter “higher” level content.
What many argue should happen (and what GW1 did quite well) is to make content more challenging without the need for gear to increase. This not only allows you to avoid the common problems with power creep, but also to create content that new players can access so they don’t get discouraged and quit.
Basically, you don’t need better gear to make content more challenging or exciting, you need better content.
This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.
Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!
If you like what WoW does, why aren’t you playing WoW? It was clear that GW2 wouldn’t have the vertical progression you want.
In GW2, you don’t have an advantage over anybody who’s not playing the game regularly. That’s what makes this game interesting for most of its playerbase, that’s the reason for the ascended gear outrage.
The others already said why the numbers game doesn’t work out. Take a look at Diablo III, it took this to a ridiculous level. The more damage you deal, the more damage the enemies can take. That is a really, really bad and unrewarding mechanic when you look at it from a long time perspective. I remember when the first WoW addon came out and all the endgame equipment we grinded for was more or less worthless…
Iruwen Evillan, Human Mesmer on Drakkar Lake
PS just to show how I see reword systems in Gw2 and in other games:
Typical MMO: Gear Grind -> Raid 1(challenge) -> Gear Grind -> Raid 2(challenge) -> Gear Grind -> Raid 3(challenge)
Where does this end? Never. After grinding raid 1, a third of your audience stops playing due to the mind numbing effect of grinding gear for the next dungeon. After raid 2 you lost 66% of the players on your gear curve. Eventually, only a minority will be playing raid 3 and you’re forced to reset the game with an expansion, alienating everyone who never managed to complete his character progress. Rinse-repeat until you have no expansion content left except an old april’s fool joke.
Gw2 –
Fotm level 1-10 -> Gear Griiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnd -> Fotm level 10-20 -> Gear Griiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnd -> Fotm level 20-30 (half bad)
Or
Aesthetics Griiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnd -> NOTHING (B.A.D all the way)
I see it more like:
Get exotics > get ascended > done. There’s a very clear path to completing your character. Aragorn eventually became king and after that, the movie ends. He didn’t go tackle Sauron 2.0 (even though the hobbits technically tackled Saruman 2.0)
Aesthetics are entirely optional. Either you go:
Done. (good)
Entirely optional Griiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind > legendary > still done but you’re awesome looking now. (extremely good)
Gimli getting Galadriel’s hair didn’t increase his strength, yet it was the most valuable trophy anyone got in the entire book. Morgoth wanted the Silmaril because they were pretty, the magic in there wasn’t relevant.
If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto
Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.
That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.
This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.
Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!
Because the grinding in itself isn’t intrinsically rewarding (unless you like the grinding).
Basically, you’re grinding for the outcome, and not for the activity itself (again, unless you like grinding).
And you say no gear treadmill = endless grind? What about a gear treadmill? A treadmill, by design, is endless (unless you get off).
In this game, I personally don’t feel like I’m grinding. I got all of my Exotics, and I don’t feel the need to get Ascended. I play in whatever zone I want. I play for playing, not the rewards, and this makes the game infinitely more enjoyable than when I need to do something I don’t enjoy just to get to content I do enjoy.
Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.
Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!
If you like what WoW does, why aren’t you playing WoW? It was clear that GW2 wouldn’t have the vertical progression you want.
But it wasn’t clear the horizontal progression they hyped would depend so heavily on an RNG.
Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.
That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.
I think you nailed it with the production costs. It is less expensive to add the illusion of progression through gear rather than new and challenging content.
This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.
Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!
If you like what WoW does, why aren’t you playing WoW? It was clear that GW2 wouldn’t have the vertical progression you want.
But it wasn’t clear the horizontal progression they hyped would depend so heavily on an RNG.
That’s a different topic, I also don’t like the idea of having to buy keys for chests that may or may not contain a ticket. Bad design decision, and not understandable considering you could just buy the wintersday skins on the TP. That’s even worse than RNG alone.
Iruwen Evillan, Human Mesmer on Drakkar Lake
The OP makes my point better than I do. Here’s a guy who’s saying there’s no real vertical progression in Guild Wars 2, or at least not nearly enough. People from other games aren’t seeing this nefarious vertical progression that Guild Wars 1 players see. Guild Wars one players see the glass half empty, when in fact it’s not quite, but almost full.
There is some vertical progression in this game, but without the gated content, it’s meaningless. At least the OP seems to think so.
This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.
Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!
If you like what WoW does
Where did I wrote that?!
In GW2, you don’t have an advantage over anybody who’s not playing the game regularly.
So let’s suppose there is a guy level 75 with Blue Equipment.
And I’m level 80 with Exotic Equipment.
And I have a huge advantage over him.
I remember when the first WoW addon came out and all the endgame equipment we grinded for was more or less worthless…
Worthless?! It’s because you were grinding for items! Instead of playing for achievement or fun! Rewords doesn’t have anything to do with that!
The OP makes my point better than I do. Here’s a guy who’s saying there’s no real vertical progression in Guild Wars 2, or at least not nearly enough. People from other games aren’t seeing this nefarious vertical progression that Guild Wars 1 players see. Guild Wars one players see the glass half empty, when in fact it’s not quite, but almost full.
There is some vertical progression in this game, but without the gated content, it’s meaningless. At least the OP seems to think so.
There isn’t much vertical progression in this game. Even with the black eye ascended gear gave ArenaNet loyalists, it still has not reached the levels of other MMO’s. True.
But, what is inherently good about gear progression that isn’t about making players feel more powerful than other players? Do you honestly think there is a need for a gear treadmill in this game because other games do it? Remember, you said yourself you were a GW1 fanboy at some point – so do you think that game needed vertical gear progression? Clearly, it did quite well without it.
(edited by clay.7849)
Well, the one problem I see with no gear progression is in the Trading Post. Once everybody gets what they need, after a few years not much is going to sell on there because nobody is going to need the mats any more.
The OP makes my point better than I do. Here’s a guy who’s saying there’s no real vertical progression in Guild Wars 2, or at least not nearly enough. People from other games aren’t seeing this nefarious vertical progression that Guild Wars 1 players see. Guild Wars one players see the glass half empty, when in fact it’s not quite, but almost full.
There is some vertical progression in this game, but without the gated content, it’s meaningless. At least the OP seems to think so.
There isn’t much vertical progression in this game. Even the black eye ascended gear gave ArenaNet loyalists, it still has not reached the levels of other MMO’s. True.
But, what is inherently good about gear progression that isn’t about making players feel more powerful than other players? Do you honestly think there is a need for a gear treadmill in this game because other games do it? Remember, you said yourself you were a GW1 fanboy at some point – so do you think that game needed vertical gear progression? Clearly, it did quite well without it.
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
So Anet made “the compromise”. Let’s give the grinders 1 dungeon, FoTM that they could do. And we’ll limit the progression. Make it not so bad. This keeps those guys playing, doesn’t particularly affect guys like me, and the only people really unhappy were those who didn’t see the need for the change. They didn’t see that people really were leaving until the Fractals came out. People wanted something to grind away at to get better gear. I don’t personally want or need it. But I want at least one MMO that doesn’t have the gated content that forces me to grind for that stuff, and I’ve found it.
You can look at what Anet did in two ways. They betrayed you (personally, because like, they know you) or they did what any business would do. They tried to keep everyone happy. The stat guys would like higher stats and the cosmetic guys would like no stat increase at all.
As a compromise, I think Anet did okay. The only real issue was that they should have come out with numerous ways to get this gear in the first place.
This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.
Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!
If you like what WoW does
Where did I wrote that?!
In GW2, you don’t have an advantage over anybody who’s not playing the game regularly.
So let’s suppose there is a guy level 75 with Blue Equipment.
And I’m level 80 with Exotic Equipment.
And I have a huge advantage over him.
Irrelevant. Max 80 full exotic can be reached in matter of days. But is it fair that one guy with more playtime gets better gear and can beat the one with less? Is it fair that Kasparov plays with 5 queens, merely because of his experience playing chess? Would it be fair to race against Schumacher with a fiat punto while he can drive his Ferarri? Why do I get a handicap when playing golf while Tiger Woods spent so much more time in the game? Why doesn’t Usain Bolt get a 50 meter lead on me?
Oh yes I know… because someone who plays longer, usually gets worse stats in every other game genre. I don’t know why MMOs are different, and frankly, they shouldn’t be. It is one of the cancers making MMOs such a despicable genre as a whole, and rightfully so.
Tiger Woods, Kasparov, Schumacher … these guys are good because they’re good. If you demand a lead on me because you played longer … I would seriously expect you to be a very unskilled player.
I remember when the first WoW addon came out and all the endgame equipment we grinded for was more or less worthless…
Worthless?! It’s because you were grinding for items! Instead of playing for achievement or fun! Rewords doesn’t have anything to do with that!
That’s settled then. No further stat improvements. Welcome to the majority playing this game.
If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.
7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.
One of the best selling PC games ever made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.
I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.
Where did I wrote that?!
In the sentence I quoted.
Iruwen Evillan, Human Mesmer on Drakkar Lake
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.
7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.
One of the best selling PC games ever made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.
I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.
So I have 50/50 and GWAMM because I was never a fan? How does one get GWAMM without being a fan? You think I played maybe for a week. You want to come into Guild Wars and see my EL kunnevang tonic, maybe?
Guild Wars never took off. I say this because it’s true. When I say take off, it didn’t have the numbers to do what Anet wanted to do with it. It made a lot of sales and it had a die hard following, but in case you weren’t around then, once heroes were introduced, people found it harder and harder to find groups.
PvPers started leaving because of balance decisions with the newer professions. Some people started leaving when Ursan was nerfed or when perma-sin was nerfed. In the end, there were a whole lot less people playing, and then it picked up again with the HoM calculator because people were excited.
The only time it was really hopping was during things like Canthan New Year, when people would log on to get celestial pets.
But I watched some very big guilds whittle away to nothing in my time there.
If I wasn’t a fan, why would I have spent so much on in game costumes from the shop?
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.
7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.
One of the best selling PC games ever made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.
I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.
That list is way wrong.
Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.
7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.
One of the best selling PC games ever made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.
I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.
That list is way wrong.
Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.
That’s because they count each expansion of WoW separate.
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.
7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.
One of the best selling PC games ever made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.
I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.
So I have 50/50 and GWAMM because I was never a fan? How does one get GWAMM without being a fan? You think I played maybe for a week. You want to come into Guild Wars and see my EL kunnevang tonic, maybe?
Guild Wars never took off. I say this because it’s true. When I say take off, it didn’t have the numbers to do what Anet wanted to do with it. It made a lot of sales and it had a die hard following, but in case you weren’t around then, once heroes were introduced, people found it harder and harder to find groups.
PvPers started leaving because of balance decisions with the newer professions. Some people started leaving when Ursan was nerfed or when perma-sin was nerfed. In the end, there were a whole lot less people playing, and then it picked up again with the HoM calculator because people were excited.
The only time it was really hopping was during things like Canthan New Year, when people would log on to get celestial pets.
But I watched some very big guilds whittle away to nothing in my time there.
If I wasn’t a fan, why would I have spent so much on in game costumes from the shop?
Ok, so you were a fan. Sorry to offend you so much about a game. :/
Anyway, I agree with you about the heroes and the PvP. Those were all things ANet did that were detrimental to the game. However, to say it didn’t “take off” or wasn’t successful is simply wrong. GW1 had some of the best numbers of any online multiplayer game to date.
Also, the one thing you fail to mention, which is kind of the crux of this thread, is that it didn’t die because of no vertical gear progression.
That list is way wrong.
Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.
It’s entirely possible, since in Korea, they get the game for free, and only have to buy the time.
They also don’t count each separate expansion as a copy of WoW sold.
Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
Typical MMO: Gear Grind -> Raid 1(challenge) -> Gear Grind -> Raid 2(challenge) -> Gear Grind -> Raid 3(challenge)
300+ attempts on a boss until everyone has enough gear to finally down it isn’t a challenge, it’s a gear check. It’s kinda dumb when you think about it.
But some people like that (although very few from what I’m seeing lately). Those people should play games that offer that kind of (cough) mechanic.
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.
7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.
One of the best selling PC games ever made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.
I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.
That list is way wrong.
Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.
That’s because they count each expansion of WoW separate.
Ah, I see.
Still pretty misleading.
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.
7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.
One of the best selling PC games ever made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.
I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.
So I have 50/50 and GWAMM because I was never a fan? How does one get GWAMM without being a fan? You think I played maybe for a week. You want to come into Guild Wars and see my EL kunnevang tonic, maybe?
Guild Wars never took off. I say this because it’s true. When I say take off, it didn’t have the numbers to do what Anet wanted to do with it. It made a lot of sales and it had a die hard following, but in case you weren’t around then, once heroes were introduced, people found it harder and harder to find groups.
PvPers started leaving because of balance decisions with the newer professions. Some people started leaving when Ursan was nerfed or when perma-sin was nerfed. In the end, there were a whole lot less people playing, and then it picked up again with the HoM calculator because people were excited.
The only time it was really hopping was during things like Canthan New Year, when people would log on to get celestial pets.
But I watched some very big guilds whittle away to nothing in my time there.
If I wasn’t a fan, why would I have spent so much on in game costumes from the shop?
Ok, so you were a fan. Sorry to offend you so much about a game. :/
Anyway, I agree with you about the heroes and the PvP. Those were all things ANet did that were detrimental to the game. However, to say it didn’t “take off” or wasn’t successful is simply wrong. GW1 had some of the best numbers of any online multiplayer game to date.
Also, the one thing you fail to mention, which is kind of the crux of this thread, is that it didn’t die because of no vertical gear progression.
It never appealed to the “masses” though. See I have kids in the house and I know what’s talked about. Both the kids left Guild Wars to play WoW, along with all their friends. Eventually, you’d walk into stores and Guild Wars would be in the discount rack.
I went the other way. I left WoW to play Guild Wars. Do you know how many characters I had in Guild Wars? 37, over two accounts. Every single one of them finished Factions and Eye of the North, and most of them finished Prophecies or Nightfall or both. Yeah, I was a die hard fan. There were things I felt could have been done better, but I was a fan.
But I also watched what people were doing. There was WoW with it’s ten million active accounts (Guild Wars sold 7 million copies over a period of 7 years) and a zillion WoW clones. Guild Wars with more of a cult thing. Those who played it thought it was the bees knees (as we say downunder) but a zillion other people thought it was a joke…it was known largely in as a PvP game. A lot of people didn’t even know it had PVe. Frustrated the hell out of me.
The point is, for Anet to take the game to the next step and really create a huge world and content, it would have to appeal to a larger number….remember Anet supported a staff of about 50 people, not 270. In order for them to go where they wanted and take the game to the next level, they had to go mainstream.
And mainstream was my sons, and all the other guys who got trained not just by WoW, but they 87 gazillion games copying WoW. It sucks but that’s how I see it.
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.
7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.
One of the best selling PC games ever made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.
I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.
That list is way wrong.
Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.
That’s because they count each expansion of WoW separate.
Ah, I see.
Still pretty misleading.
Yes, it would be better if they were all included in one number. Even so, it is easy to see that compared to other multiplayer online PC games, GW1 did pretty kitten well.
This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.
Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!
I think the point is that in an ideal world everything you do in a game should be fun in and of itself. The game should be played for the sheer joy of playing it.
No game is ever going to do this 100% of the time, if for no other reason than different people like different things. However, if you think about “am I enjoying doing this, right now” you will end up spending more time doing what you like and less times on things you don’t.
Regarding getting new gear, we get conditioned to chase things. Achieving a goal or milestone gives us a rush. However, the key question how much fun is the chase itself?
Anything I post is just the opinion of a very vocal minority of 1.
The OP makes my point better than I do. Here’s a guy who’s saying there’s no real vertical progression in Guild Wars 2, or at least not nearly enough. People from other games aren’t seeing this nefarious vertical progression that Guild Wars 1 players see. Guild Wars one players see the glass half empty, when in fact it’s not quite, but almost full.
No, it is just a proof that trying to go halfway with progression is going to satisfy noone. For vertical progression fans it won’t be enough, for horizontal progression supporters it will be too much.
The glass may be half full for some, half empty for others, but noone will be actually satisfied until it is completely full or empty.
The devs need to decide. Either they’ll continue with the progression, (but then they’ll need to state this clearly, and make it both more steep and faster), or they’ll abandon it and go back to the horizontal progression idea (in which case again, it will have to be stated clearly, and current top tier needs to be made much easier to get).
I can understand, that the market strategy might force them to make the choice that goes against the original ideas. I won’t hold it against them (i will just leave). I will hold it against them if they’ll continue the denial strategy, trying to change the game philosophy while continuing to protest that they do no such thing.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.
7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.
One of the best selling PC games ever made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.
I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.
So I have 50/50 and GWAMM because I was never a fan? How does one get GWAMM without being a fan? You think I played maybe for a week. You want to come into Guild Wars and see my EL kunnevang tonic, maybe?
Guild Wars never took off. I say this because it’s true. When I say take off, it didn’t have the numbers to do what Anet wanted to do with it. It made a lot of sales and it had a die hard following, but in case you weren’t around then, once heroes were introduced, people found it harder and harder to find groups.
PvPers started leaving because of balance decisions with the newer professions. Some people started leaving when Ursan was nerfed or when perma-sin was nerfed. In the end, there were a whole lot less people playing, and then it picked up again with the HoM calculator because people were excited.
The only time it was really hopping was during things like Canthan New Year, when people would log on to get celestial pets.
But I watched some very big guilds whittle away to nothing in my time there.
If I wasn’t a fan, why would I have spent so much on in game costumes from the shop?
Ok, so you were a fan. Sorry to offend you so much about a game. :/
Anyway, I agree with you about the heroes and the PvP. Those were all things ANet did that were detrimental to the game. However, to say it didn’t “take off” or wasn’t successful is simply wrong. GW1 had some of the best numbers of any online multiplayer game to date.
Also, the one thing you fail to mention, which is kind of the crux of this thread, is that it didn’t die because of no vertical gear progression.
I have to partly agree with Vayne. GW1 really existed in limbo with too many loyal fans to let it die and not enough fans to keep it going full steam. At times it really felt dead. Blessed be the unique server infrastructure of GW1 that allowed it to scale so it didn’t have to be shut down at any point.
That being said. I did grind a ton in GW1. I got Luxon title merely by vanquishing VQ with heroes. Took me a very, very long time but it was one of the best experiences of my gaming life. I farmed it, specifically because it wouldn’t make my character stronger. If it gave any stat increase, I wouldn’t have bothered. Sure the luxon skills existed but they didn’t fit my build so meh.
Same for obby. Obsidian armor is a gold sink times a million. Took me over a year between buying my first and my last ecto, finally going into FOW with my last pennies for the 60k. I was happier with my obsidian armor than any piece of gear I ever got in WoW.
In GW2 the legendary really pulls me, mostly because of the lack in stats. As for ascended gear, I loath the first 3 steps of the ascended capacitor, it’s the fourth, cosmetic part that inspires me to go for it. Dumping 250 ecto on a cosmetic upgrade is at the heart of the Guild Wars philosophy.
If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.
7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.
One of the best selling PC games ever made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.
I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.
That list is way wrong.
Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.
That’s because they count each expansion of WoW separate.
Ah, I see.
Still pretty misleading.
Yes, it would be better if they were all included in one number. Even so, it is easy to see that compared to other multiplayer online PC games, GW1 did pretty kitten well.
It did do well, no doubt.
But that doesn’t mean people stayed because they loved the design of grinding for asthetics.
The OP makes my point better than I do. Here’s a guy who’s saying there’s no real vertical progression in Guild Wars 2, or at least not nearly enough. People from other games aren’t seeing this nefarious vertical progression that Guild Wars 1 players see. Guild Wars one players see the glass half empty, when in fact it’s not quite, but almost full.
No, it is just a proof that trying to go halfway with progression is going to satisfy noone. For vertical progression fans it won’t be enough, for horizontal progression supporters it will be too much.
The glass may be half full for some, half empty for others, but noone will be actually satisfied until it is completely full or empty.
Don’t project your entitlement on others. Most people are happy to settle for something that’s good enough. The rough edges are often what makes a game feel alive.
If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto
It never appealed to the “masses” though. See I have kids in the house and I know what’s talked about. Both the kids left Guild Wars to play WoW, along with all their friends. Eventually, you’d walk into stores and Guild Wars would be in the discount rack.
I went the other way. I left WoW to play Guild Wars. Do you know how many characters I had in Guild Wars? 37, over two accounts. Every single one of them finished Factions and Eye of the North, and most of them finished Prophecies or Nightfall or both. Yeah, I was a die hard fan. There were things I felt could have been done better, but I was a fan.
But I also watched what people were doing. There was WoW with it’s ten million active accounts (Guild Wars sold 7 million copies over a period of 7 years) and a zillion WoW clones. Guild Wars with more of a cult thing. Those who played it thought it was the bees knees (as we say downunder) but a zillion other people thought it was a joke…it was known largely in as a PvP game. A lot of people didn’t even know it had PVe. Frustrated the hell out of me.
The point is, for Anet to take the game to the next step and really create a huge world and content, it would have to appeal to a larger number….remember Anet supported a staff of about 50 people, not 270. In order for them to go where they wanted and take the game to the next level, they had to go mainstream.
And mainstream was my sons, and all the other guys who got trained not just by WoW, but they 87 gazillion games copying WoW. It sucks but that’s how I see it.
This is where we differ. WoW was a phenomenon that can’t be replicated, at least not in their style. I know you think GW2 isn’t a lot like WoW, but underneath the hood, it is. They are very very similar, even though GW2 is a great game and does do some things different.
Now, it is my personal opinion, as a marketing professional, that the best ROI is usually through appealing to a niche crowd. You can disagree all you want, but the fact is that there have been huge budgets for huge games that haven’t come close to taking down WoW.
In fact, the only two games of the last 10 years that could come close to being called successes (other than WoW) are EVE and GW1. GW2 may be a success, but with 6 months in, we can’t really make any concrete determinations thus far.
Basically, I think it is naive to think that in order to beat WoW you need to join WoW. I think, in order to beat WoW you need to be innovative and new. GW2 may be a step in the right direction, but I don’t think it is going to be the WoW killer you think it could be.
Last, I think that vertical gear progression is a lazy way to add to a game’s longevity – and it isn’t going to help to make a game that beats WoW. The game that beats WoW is going to be a game that has better content, not better rewards.
Fotm level 1-10 -> Gear Griiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnd -> Fotm level 10-20 -> Gear Griiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnd -> Fotm level 20-30 (half bad)
Mine was more like FotM 1-28 (First ring at 28, got back piece with relics at 20) → FotM 28-50. I enjoyed it more my way.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
It never appealed to the “masses” though. See I have kids in the house and I know what’s talked about. Both the kids left Guild Wars to play WoW, along with all their friends. Eventually, you’d walk into stores and Guild Wars would be in the discount rack.
I went the other way. I left WoW to play Guild Wars. Do you know how many characters I had in Guild Wars? 37, over two accounts. Every single one of them finished Factions and Eye of the North, and most of them finished Prophecies or Nightfall or both. Yeah, I was a die hard fan. There were things I felt could have been done better, but I was a fan.
But I also watched what people were doing. There was WoW with it’s ten million active accounts (Guild Wars sold 7 million copies over a period of 7 years) and a zillion WoW clones. Guild Wars with more of a cult thing. Those who played it thought it was the bees knees (as we say downunder) but a zillion other people thought it was a joke…it was known largely in as a PvP game. A lot of people didn’t even know it had PVe. Frustrated the hell out of me.
The point is, for Anet to take the game to the next step and really create a huge world and content, it would have to appeal to a larger number….remember Anet supported a staff of about 50 people, not 270. In order for them to go where they wanted and take the game to the next level, they had to go mainstream.
And mainstream was my sons, and all the other guys who got trained not just by WoW, but they 87 gazillion games copying WoW. It sucks but that’s how I see it.
This is where we differ. WoW was a phenomenon that can’t be replicated, at least not in their style. I know you think GW2 isn’t a lot like WoW, but underneath the hood, it is. They are very very similar, even though GW2 is a great game and does do some things different.
Now, it is my personal opinion, as a marketing professional, that the best ROI is usually through appealing to a niche crowd. You can disagree all you want, but the fact is that there have been huge budgets for huge games that haven’t come close to taking down WoW.
In fact, the only two games of the last 10 years that could come close to being called successes (other than WoW) are EVE and GW1. GW2 may be a success, but with 6 months in, we can’t really make any concrete determinations thus far.
Basically, I think it is naive to think that in order to beat WoW you need to join WoW. I think, in order to beat WoW you need to be innovative and new. GW2 may be a step in the right direction, but I don’t think it is going to be the WoW killer you think it could be.
Last, I think that vertical gear progression is a lazy way to add to a game’s longevity – and it isn’t going to help to make a game that beats WoW. The game that beats WoW is going to be a game that has better content, not better rewards.
Or both.
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.
7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.
One of the best selling PC games ever made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.
I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.
That list is way wrong.
Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.
That’s because they count each expansion of WoW separate.
Ah, I see.
Still pretty misleading.
Yes, it would be better if they were all included in one number. Even so, it is easy to see that compared to other multiplayer online PC games, GW1 did pretty kitten well.
It did do well, no doubt.
But that doesn’t mean people stayed because they loved the design of grinding for asthetics.
Take the rewards out of the game and think, is this game good just for the actual sake of playing the game?
That is the question we need to ask. And in GW1, in may cases it was. Why?
1. Beautiful world with amazing lore.
2. One of the best cooperative RPG’s ever made
3. One of the best PvP RPG games ever made
4. The story line was very well written and executed
5. The immersion into the world of Tyria was done well
Some of these things can be found in GW2, some are not. None of them have to do with rewards. Same thing can be said of EVE, it is good because the game play is good, not because the rewards are good.
Look at FPS games. There are really no rewards in those games. They are playable over and over again because they are fun to play.
When we stop looking at MMOs in terms of rewards and look at them in terms of whether content is fun to play, that is when we will find the next WoW beater.
(edited by clay.7849)
It never appealed to the “masses” though. See I have kids in the house and I know what’s talked about. Both the kids left Guild Wars to play WoW, along with all their friends. Eventually, you’d walk into stores and Guild Wars would be in the discount rack.
I went the other way. I left WoW to play Guild Wars. Do you know how many characters I had in Guild Wars? 37, over two accounts. Every single one of them finished Factions and Eye of the North, and most of them finished Prophecies or Nightfall or both. Yeah, I was a die hard fan. There were things I felt could have been done better, but I was a fan.
But I also watched what people were doing. There was WoW with it’s ten million active accounts (Guild Wars sold 7 million copies over a period of 7 years) and a zillion WoW clones. Guild Wars with more of a cult thing. Those who played it thought it was the bees knees (as we say downunder) but a zillion other people thought it was a joke…it was known largely in as a PvP game. A lot of people didn’t even know it had PVe. Frustrated the hell out of me.
The point is, for Anet to take the game to the next step and really create a huge world and content, it would have to appeal to a larger number….remember Anet supported a staff of about 50 people, not 270. In order for them to go where they wanted and take the game to the next level, they had to go mainstream.
And mainstream was my sons, and all the other guys who got trained not just by WoW, but they 87 gazillion games copying WoW. It sucks but that’s how I see it.
This is where we differ. WoW was a phenomenon that can’t be replicated, at least not in their style. I know you think GW2 isn’t a lot like WoW, but underneath the hood, it is. They are very very similar, even though GW2 is a great game and does do some things different.
Now, it is my personal opinion, as a marketing professional, that the best ROI is usually through appealing to a niche crowd. You can disagree all you want, but the fact is that there have been huge budgets for huge games that haven’t come close to taking down WoW.
In fact, the only two games of the last 10 years that could come close to being called successes (other than WoW) are EVE and GW1. GW2 may be a success, but with 6 months in, we can’t really make any concrete determinations thus far.
Basically, I think it is naive to think that in order to beat WoW you need to join WoW. I think, in order to beat WoW you need to be innovative and new. GW2 may be a step in the right direction, but I don’t think it is going to be the WoW killer you think it could be.
Last, I think that vertical gear progression is a lazy way to add to a game’s longevity – and it isn’t going to help to make a game that beats WoW. The game that beats WoW is going to be a game that has better content, not better rewards.
As you said, there were only 3 rather succesful MMOs in the last decade, each was succesful because they were different:
- WoW was always a game for the masses, a themepark MMO at best. Whether you like Justin Bieber or not, he’s popular and that has a value in its own right. Being popular and being good aren’t the same thing though.
- Eve was the space opera trading sandbox.
- Guild Wars 1 was the deck building pvp centred lvl 20 8-button game without a subscription.
Each had a completely different segment of the market cornered, and Eve is just as much a cult game as Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 2 shouldn’t expect to beat WoW or Eve, but rather be the successor to the Guild Wars 1 segment with a flat gear curve and skilled combat. The foundation is there.
If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto
I remember when the first WoW addon came out and all the endgame equipment we grinded for was more or less worthless…
Worthless?! It’s because you were grinding for items! Instead of playing for achievement or fun! Rewords doesn’t have anything to do with that!
That’s settled then. No further stat improvements. Welcome to the majority playing this game.
Lol this what you call discussion?
I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.
I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.
Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.
Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.
7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.
One of the best selling PC games ever made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.
I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.
That list is way wrong.
Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.
That’s because they count each expansion of WoW separate.
Ah, I see.
Still pretty misleading.
Yes, it would be better if they were all included in one number. Even so, it is easy to see that compared to other multiplayer online PC games, GW1 did pretty kitten well.
It did do well, no doubt.
But that doesn’t mean people stayed because they loved the design of grinding for asthetics.
Don’t get mad, but just listen for a second. Take the rewards out of the game and think, is this game good just for the actual sake of playing the game?
That is the question we need to ask. And in GW1, in may cases it was. Why?
1. Beautiful world with amazing lore.
2. One of the best cooperative RPG’s ever made
3. One of the best PvP RPG games ever made
4. The story line was very well written and executed
5. The immersion into the world of Tyria was done wellSome of these things can be found in GW2, some are not. None of them have to do with rewards. Same thing can be said of EVE, it is good because the game play is good, not because the rewards are good.
Look at FPS games. There are really no rewards in those games. They are playable over and over again because they are fun to play.
When we stop looking at MMOs in terms of rewards and look at them in terms of whether content is fun to play, that is when we will find the next WoW beater.
See, here’s the issue…you’re taking your opinion of what makes the game great and applying it to everybody when it’s just not possible to do so. If what you are saying really was the hooking part of the game, then after 4 years (arbitrary number)
I wouldn’t be logging into an essentially empty Lion’s Arch in GW. The 6 million who bought the game would still be there.
And I’m sorry, running missions which were on rails over and over again in GW was not fun to me, nor was the tedium of gearing/speccing heroes so they could run those missions with me, nor was it apparently fun for 4+ million other people who eventually left and found other things to do.
You can’t use your opinion of what makes a game great and make it the standard, Clay.
You just can’t.
And I’m sorry, but killing a world boss for the 8th time and not getting a reward for it in some way (a MEANINGFUL reward instead of just salvage fodder) is a waste of my time because it’s jut not that important to me to let everybody know I’ve killed that boss for the 8th time.
Having to buy a frigging key dozens of time in hope for a RNG to hit for me so I could have a skin drop isn’t fun for me.
Oh, and FPS aren’t fun for me, either. I just don’t get them.
There needs to be vertical progression, but it needs to be slow. Otherwise this game will live the life of GW1. A very small niche of players running around and doing the same thing over and over again with no real rewards other than it being their idea of “fun.”
And I’m not saying that’s bad for those players, but it is bad for the long-term outlook of the game, which, in turn affects those players.
And I’m not mad. :P
Look at FPS games. There are really no rewards in those games. They are playable over and over again because they are fun to play.
That changed dramatically too, look at Battlefield 3, Call of Duty or Counter-Strike: GO and what happened to series like Quake or Unreal Tournament. Games don’t seem to sell if there’s not an achievement popping up at least once per minute (at least that’s what developers/publishers think). They’re even going to do this in Battlefield 4 singleplayer as it seems. Kind of a sad development (literally), and people are becoming increasingly annoyed by it.
Iruwen Evillan, Human Mesmer on Drakkar Lake
As you said, there were only 3 rather succesful MMOs in the last decade, each was succesful because they were different:
- WoW was always a game for the masses, a themepark MMO at best. Whether you like Justin Bieber or not, he’s popular and that has a value in its own right. Being popular and being good aren’t the same thing though.
- Eve was the space opera trading sandbox.
- Guild Wars 1 was the deck building pvp centred lvl 20 8-button game without a subscription.
Each had a completely different segment of the market cornered, and Eve is just as much a cult game as Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 2 shouldn’t expect to beat WoW or Eve, but rather be the successor to the Guild Wars 1 segment with a flat gear curve and skilled combat. The foundation is there.
Yes, great post. Unfortunately, GW2 is not really a great successor to GW1 as it basically ignores some of the things that made GW1 great (at least to many people).
I really think that making niche games is the way to make money in this industry. It would be almost impossible to take WoW head on for all of their subscribers. Instead, they should be bled slowly by having those subscribers leave for games that fill their niche better.
My personal background is in marketing, and I can tell you that marketing to a niche crowd almost always has a better ROI, less competition and less cost than trying to market to the general public.
There needs to be vertical progression, but it needs to be slow. Otherwise this game will live the life of GW1. A very small niche of players running around and doing the same thing over and over again with no real rewards other than it being their idea of “fun.”
Although most of what you write isn’t actually “wrong”, the conclusions you draw unfortunately are.
Iruwen Evillan, Human Mesmer on Drakkar Lake
There needs to be vertical progression, but it needs to be slow. Otherwise this game will live the life of GW1. A very small niche of players running around and doing the same thing over and over again with no real rewards other than it being their idea of “fun.”
Although most of what you write isn’t actually “wrong”, the conclusions you draw unfortunately are.
And you are more than welcome to your opinion.
@Shootsfoot
I’m not trying to take what made a game great for me. Personally, all I really cared about in GW1 was the PvP. GW1 was successful because of those things, not because I liked them. It’s because those are the things that game did well.
But, if you look at the whole argument logically, unless the gear itself provides more complexity to the game or something that makes the gameplay better, which often times it does not, then you are simply adding rewards for the sake of adding rewards – you’re not actually making the game better.
See, here’s the issue…you’re taking your opinion of what makes the game great and applying it to everybody when it’s just not possible to do so. If what you are saying really was the hooking part of the game, then after 4 years (arbitrary number) I wouldn’t be logging into an essentially empty Lion’s Arch in GW. The 6 million who bought the game would still be there.
There were still lot of people playing at the time of Winds of change. People left only after it became clear that due to GW2 there will be no more support for GW1 anymore.
The game to live does have to change – new expansions and content are necessary. Balance tweaks are (unfortunately) also necessary. As long as GW received those, no other form of “progress” was needed. Without continued support, it is as good as dead (though the dying stage migh last for some time).
It wasn’t lack of gear treadmill that killed GW1, but it’s abandonment by Anet.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.
That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.
The production costs for a sense of horizontal progression are higher than the production costs of vertical progression as the extra credits video on power creep brings out. But, the easier, softer way of vertical progression bites you in the long run. It locks developers into now managing the spiraling power curve and it forces players into a gear grind. Because the power level of the game is increasing, you must perform the actions necessary to maintain yourself at the games power level. It’s not optional and players notice this and begin to object to it. It is illusory in that it doesn’t really go anywhere and players will eventually notice this and burn out and look for that ‘new’ MMO that GW2 promised it would be.
I would prefer that developers took on the task of creativity around progression and saw that as part of their value proposition in bringing a game to market. More than that, I would like to see it as a passion that drives a venture much like that seen in the pre-release videos and manifesto of GW2. That new conception of the MMO is an idea whose time has come and it can be supported by a large population of players who are increasingly growing knowledgeable of various aspects of game design.
Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.
Think of it this way, let’s say your gear power is a 3 on a scale from 1 to 10 and the encounter difficulty on a scale from 1 to 10. That’s a 1:1 ratio of gear power to encounter difficulty. If you get new gear and it is a 4 and your next encounter is a 4, then you still have a 1:1 ratio. The only thing that gets bigger are the numbers that pop up for damage, and the hidden hit points of the mobs you are attacking.
- This is true for PvE. Creating actually challenging artificial intelligence is difficult. Much faster way is to create artificial difficulty by increasing monster health and damage. Circumventing artificial difficulty with upgraded gear in turn is a way to increase longevity of game. There’s a line between everything dying in a matter of seconds and tedious – not difficult – boss fights taking 10 minutes to finish because boss has several million hit points.
PvP is a place where gear grinding doesn’t belong. When I think of PvP game, I want it to be about player skill and outsmarting opponent. Not about arbitrary factors like one side having inherently more powerful character. Take a look at popular PvP game League of Legends. With over 100 champions to choose from, the design is superbly well balanced. You can become a dominating force in one game, but it all resets for the next match. Anet’s idea of character progression is quite different. Your character becomes permanently more powerful over long course of time. Someone who buys the game a year from now will never be as powerful as someone who has grinded their gear and WXP every day.