Guild Wars 2

TheDaiBish.9735:

morrolan.9608:

TheDaiBish.9735:

morrolan.9608:

TheDaiBish.9735:

The only reason I assume this though is because he specifically mentioned waypoint zerging to be an issue,

An issue for whom? This is PvE how can it be an issue except for more uncompromising players.

“only way to beat some of the difficult encounters at the moment is to have dead players run back from nearby waypoints while players that are alive kite the mobs)”

That’s the issue.

Really so what, if a group wants to do that who does it hurt?

It’s just plain poor game design, getting rewarded for playing poorly. It just brings the game down.

You’re not catering to ‘casuals’ then, you’re catering to ‘entitled’ gamers who think that they have the right to complete the dungeon, regardless of how poorly they play.

Ex A: AC P2 defending charr fixing mortars. Ghost spawn: ele, necro, ranger. Me: huddle in feedle positions and take kitten beating
Ex B: CoF defending asura Me: huddle in feedle position and take kitten beating, respawn rinse and repeat.

…. etc

so yes i feel i am “entitled” to a reward for getting my kitten handed to me on a silver platter… im not the best player but i understand my class and how to play it, in both of those encounters i listed none of that matters.

patasde.6087:

this will only punish lower lvl players noone will take them to dungeon… only 80s with full exo

You might see that as a good thing but actually that is going to cause the newer players not wanting to do dungeon runs. and more so, no one will take newer players.
You recall the people asking to see your rank in HA in gw1? guess what, this is Anet now implementing that.

ZilentNight.5089:

patasde.6087:

this will only punish lower lvl players noone will take them to dungeon… only 80s with full exo

You might see that as a good thing but actually that is going to cause the newer players not wanting to do dungeon runs. and more so, no one will take newer players.
You recall the people asking to see your rank in HA in gw1? guess what, this is Anet now implementing that.

ie. more elitism, seriously they do not think these changes through to the logical conclusion. Just like with the fractals /ascended gear patch.

Lucky.4263:

Ex A: AC P2 defending charr fixing mortars. Ghost spawn: ele, necro, ranger. Me: huddle in feedle positions and take kitten beating
Ex B: CoF defending asura Me: huddle in feedle position and take kitten beating, respawn rinse and repeat.

…. etc

so yes i feel i am “entitled” to a reward for getting my kitten handed to me on a silver platter… im not the best player but i understand my class and how to play it, in both of those encounters i listed none of that matters.

The more difficult encounters (where this is the only feasible tactic) will be nerfed appropriately.

People need to look at what they’re doing as a whole, instead of QQing about individual parts.

Lucky.4263:

Ex A: AC P2 defending charr fixing mortars. Ghost spawn: ele, necro, ranger. Me: huddle in feedle positions and take kitten beating
Ex B: CoF defending asura Me: huddle in feedle position and take kitten beating, respawn rinse and repeat.

…. etc

so yes i feel i am “entitled” to a reward for getting my kitten handed to me on a silver platter… im not the best player but i understand my class and how to play it, in both of those encounters i listed none of that matters.

Whiiiiiiiiich is completely false because plenty of people have done AC and CoF, and actually killed those mobs.

In the AC instance, sometimes with low level characters too. Heck I’ve done AC a ton of time with lowbies. It’s a tough fight but you make it out like it’s impossible. Which it isn’t.

I guess we’ll see more elitist groups for dungeon runs, and more new players gets excluded and not be able to find groups, which results in more players losing interest in dungeons. Oh, and don’t forget those who do find groups but end up failing miserably after hours of trying because no one knows what to do.

Inb4 “LFM AC exp path 3 lvl 80 experienced full exotic player only”

TheDaiBish.9735:

Cina Reas.6938:

So the story mode dungeons are only to be played by elite players and only in the prescribed way? LOL.

Let’s put it this way:

You got an exam.

No matter how badly you do in that exam, you’ll still pass anyway. How is that a good test of your knowledge?

It’s the same with dungeons: They’re a test of skill. If you can just keep running to your death and still get your reward (“passing the test”), how is that good design.

As I said previously, you aren’t catering to casual players, you’re catering to the entitled who think it’s their God-given right that they should be rewarded.

If they keep dying, they keep paying for repair cost = they are getting less of a reward.
Its as simple as that.

Why dont we go an extra step ahead and remove the reward of getting any Glory points in sPvp if your team loses, will you still want to do spvp? no
Precisely the point, time should equate to some reward, players learn, they are already getting penalised by dying, no point penalizing the entire team.
Sarcasm intended

PowerCat.5738:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Just to clarify, you’ll no longer be able to use waypoints when a party member is in combat inside a dungeon. This is prevent people from using waypoints to rush and kill bosses or clear areas, which is not intended game play.

All other forms of res remain unchanged.

Are you confirming that we can resurrect a fully dead team mate, at any time?

Are you also suggesting that this will make it that if one person dies in an encouter, they cannot WP to resurrect? The only way is to use the orb or get rezzed?

Basically what he is saying is its going to be the same as fractals. There will probably still be the waypoints instead of the checkpoint system in fractals. What I see happening is when everyone is dead, the popup window occurs, then it would list the available waypoints unlocked so far and you could res to one of those. This way the waypoints wouldn’t have been wasted effort, and if you needed repairs, you could port to the start waypoint before waypointing to the latest waypoint. It just seem like some paths are less linear than fractals are which makes the checkpoints they would have to place require more thought. Another reason to use the waypoint system rather than the checkpoint system is in AC, since you can run past everything and get to the checkpoint, only one person would have to be able to run it, others would wait. This kind of activity is already seen in the underwater fractal.

expect some classes with lower DPS to not be allowed in certain dungeon paths (Ranger I’m looking at you) really some encounters are impossible to do without decent DPS, like path 2 CoF for example. Someone here said that he did AC with some low lvl party members and that it wasn’t impossible, sure it isn’t but I doubt people will wan’t to take 2 hours instead of 15/20 min in a path. This will require a massive nerf in the encounters.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Just to clarify, you’ll no longer be able to use waypoints when a party member is in combat inside a dungeon. This is prevent people from using waypoints to rush and kill bosses or clear areas, which is not intended game play.

All other forms of res remain unchanged.

I only ask that when you rebalance the dungeon encounters you err on the side of too easy and building them up later.

Sounds like a good change, but it wont make any dungeon hard enough to be considered hard.

EverythingXen.1835:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Just to clarify, you’ll no longer be able to use waypoints when a party member is in combat inside a dungeon. This is prevent people from using waypoints to rush and kill bosses or clear areas, which is not intended game play.

All other forms of res remain unchanged.

I only ask that when you rebalance the dungeon encounters you err on the side of too easy and building them up later.

From the Livestream:

We are nerfing some of the encounters that are a bit more challenging

Phase 2 – go back and look at some of the encounters – retune and increase difficulty if necessary.

From the Blogpost:

Expanded and re-designed encounters for bosses in dungeons and the open world.

If you also consider:

• You need to get downed 5 times in a minute to be completely defeated, giving you a margin of error
• Every minute one stage of death penalty wears off
• People can still revive you

alongside the encounter reworks, the lack of waypoint zerging isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

i for one dislike this change as it guarantees that i will die more in dungeons.

ex: after 4/5 get blasted by colossus rumblus, i’ll be fighting it alone instead of holding out until they come back, which virtually guarantees a death or a 30 min long solo fight.

ex: in TA, when all the silly ranged characters get stomped by the vines, i’ll have to hack away at the champ vine all alone and hopefully win. 1 mistake and i’ll be dead and we’ll fail.

this punishes the players that would not otherwise die. the bad players are still going to die and get a repair punishment. why also punish the players that don’t die by making it nigh impossible for them to stay alive?

edit: also how will the kiting part of p2 CoF work? because that path guarantees that you die and run back. i don’t see any but classes of full heavy being able to do it in 1 rotation.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Cina Reas.6938:

So the story mode dungeons are only to be played by elite players and only in the prescribed way? LOL.

Let’s put it this way:

You got an exam.

No matter how badly you do in that exam, you’ll still pass anyway. How is that a good test of your knowledge?

It’s the same with dungeons: They’re a test of skill. If you can just keep running to your death and still get your reward (“passing the test”), how is that good design.

As I said previously, you aren’t catering to casual players, you’re catering to the entitled who think it’s their God-given right that they should be rewarded.

Please do not forget GW2 is a game, an entertainment. It is sold to the general public as such.

The story mode dungeons ( just to be clear: Story Mode ) are already hard for a large number of casual players. Are you suggesting that these players are excluded by increasing the difficuly?

And as for rewards; Have you actually completed a story mode dungeon and seen the vendor trash you get?

Having just endured 1.5 hours in TA with a team of casuals, only just managing to complete it. There is no way it should be made any more difficult by restricting how it is played.

I’m inclined to agree that this will definitely impact pugs in a bad way. It’s another reason to have groups 80s only in full exo’s.

Tbh it would be more efficient for teams to kick defeated players and invite new players than to try and rez defeated players during combat or going a “man down” in certain areas. I don’t like the sound of that at all.

Seems like this is mainly to combat the kiting in CoF path 2 “defend magg”. Where else is this really an issue?

TheDaiBish.9735:

EverythingXen.1835:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Just to clarify, you’ll no longer be able to use waypoints when a party member is in combat inside a dungeon. This is prevent people from using waypoints to rush and kill bosses or clear areas, which is not intended game play.

All other forms of res remain unchanged.

I only ask that when you rebalance the dungeon encounters you err on the side of too easy and building them up later.

From the Livestream:

We are nerfing some of the encounters that are a bit more challenging

Phase 2 – go back and look at some of the encounters – retune and increase difficulty if necessary.

From the Blogpost:

Expanded and re-designed encounters for bosses in dungeons and the open world.

If they’d said “a majority”, “most” or “all Silver class” encounters instead of “some” I’d feel better about it. Wait and see it is then.

Cina Reas.6938:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Cina Reas.6938:

So the story mode dungeons are only to be played by elite players and only in the prescribed way? LOL.

Let’s put it this way:

You got an exam.

No matter how badly you do in that exam, you’ll still pass anyway. How is that a good test of your knowledge?

It’s the same with dungeons: They’re a test of skill. If you can just keep running to your death and still get your reward (“passing the test”), how is that good design.

As I said previously, you aren’t catering to casual players, you’re catering to the entitled who think it’s their God-given right that they should be rewarded.

Please do not forget GW2 is a game, an entertainment. It is sold to the general public as such.

The story mode dungeons ( just to be clear: Story Mode ) are already hard for a large number of casual players. Are you suggesting that these players are excluded by increasing the difficuly?

And as for rewards; Have you actually completed a story mode dungeon and seen the vendor trash you get?

Having just endured 1.5 hours in TA with a team of casuals, only just managing to complete it. There is no way it should be made any more difficult by restricting how it is played.

Seconded. If I have to view my playtime like an exam, I might as well power off the computer and chill with a book on the sofa…
StoryMode ALREADY feels more difficult (definitely more tedious) than ExplorableMode, which was NOT intended in the beginning. Story Mode should not be “a test of skill”, but something you do to experience the story, because the erwards are crap. I am OK with explorable mode getting a little more challenging, but penalizing the whole group for one player dying just doesn’t sound like fun…

Essence Snow.3194:

I’m inclined to agree that this will definitely impact pugs in a bad way. It’s another reason to have groups 80s only in full exo’s.

Tbh it would be more efficient for teams to kick defeated players and invite new players than to try and rez defeated players during combat or going a “man down” in certain areas. I don’t like the sound of that at all.

Seems like this is mainly to combat the kiting in CoF path 2 “defend magg”. Where else is this really an issue?

This issue is also in Arah like fight against lupi is perfect example, very easy to make a mistake there especially if the boss wants you for lunch.

Lupi isnt hard with 5 good players but guess wat, take a mediocre team, with 1-2 players down and the fight gets incredibly hard, not to mention, ressing during the fight with lupi has to be done very carefully or ur asking to be killed.

Main issue this is nerfing is how 2-3 players can kite the boss around till the 2 dead players run back and continue to fight instead of starting from phase 1.
I think this is a bad idea since if the dungeon required players to use a strategy then it is already hard and if you going to make it too easy then no point nerfing the wp zerg since ppl wont need to use it.

This is a pointless update and it will only affect the game in a bad way.

Cina Reas.6938:

Please do not forget GW2 is a game, an entertainment. It is sold to the general public as such.

Because running, dying, running, dying is incredibly gripping entertainment, no? There’s also entertainment to be had in a challenge.

Cina Reas.6938:

The story mode dungeons ( just to be clear: Story Mode ) are already hard for a large number of casual players. Are you suggesting that these players are excluded by increasing the difficulty?

And as for rewards; Have you actually completed a story mode dungeon and seen the vendor trash you get?

Yes I have.

As for difficulty and excluding ‘casuals’:

No, I’m not suggesting that at all. And having difficult content doesn’t exclude casuals who face up to the challenge and try to improve until they got the fight down. It excludes the people who want it easy, not put the effort in to learn the fights and want rewards anyway.

This coming from a casual player myself who probably plays only 4 – 5 hours a week.

But at the same time, I don’t think making content trivial is the answer either (and being able to run back and fore until you kill the guy is trivialising content since you don’t need to pay attention to anything).

great. so one player dies in a group boss + adds become manageable , two players die we get into trouble ress takes to long with mobs ramming your kitten and boss oneshoting.
in other words win at the first try or try again -_- great.
I get it but for some reason i will see prblems on the horizon cause boss goes out of combat heals practicually instantly hmmm i wonder how its gonna work

While good ideas caused this idea, I really don’t like the feel of it :

1) Makes dungeons even longer than they used to be, as you’re wasting even more time as soon as someone dies.
2) Consequence of #1 : omg waste of time, let’s skip moar, and only take lv 80 full exotics with only those builds. Moar elitism.
Basically, it makes the skipping “issue” and the elitism even worse, which is clearly bad.
3) During some fights, it’s absolutely impossible to rez allies, while there’s always a way to do it in fotm (even if it’s difficult). I mean, just take a look at the Nightmare Vines in TA : if people die, you can’t try to rez them or you’ll die very fast too. As you don’t rez them, you lose DPS and cannot stay alive very long, so you wipe while you should not have.
I’m also thinking about Lupicus : just how exactly are you supposed to rez while in fight ?
I know it’s possible but it’s insanely hard for little interest.
4) So, the game is supposed to be fun. Now tell me, how is lying dead, not being able to do anything and watching your team slowly dying fun ? Manifesto meant for players to actually PLAY the game and have death not too tragic an event.
With this, death will be a major threat and it removes fun of people learning mechanics.
5) Dungeons aren’t like fotm. Fotm was meant to be more competitive, and is causing elitism on higher levels. We don’t need that in classic dungeons, especially when we look at the difference in what you earn …
6) Removes GW2 its unique status, not inspired by other MMOs. Now it would just be like WoW when you play, you die, you wait very long before playing again …

For all these reasons, I really think it’s a bad idea. I think it COULD be a good idea, but it should not apply to everything.
I mean, for instance, it’s very good for the event of CoF path 2, definitely. But seriously, it cannot be that good for others (Lupicus, Alpha, Nightmare Vines ….)
It should not be a general system, but it should be looked specifically, encounter by encounter.

Going to be difficult to finish Crucible of Eternity in explorable mode without rez rushing… i think it’s the last boss, every time you try and revive a downed player the whole floor turns red and goes boom… you can dodge, but you are going to die eventually… my experience anyways.

We finished the encounter, but all had broken gear at the end.

Hopefully they won’t nerf lupi because that would only make him less challenging than he is currently. They might nerf simin though, judging by the amount of whines coming from future “dungeon masters”.

Dungeons are pretty unpopular right now due to the lack of an in-game LFG function, lackluster rewards and an overabundance of difficulty. So the solution is making them more tedious by forcing players that are fighting bosses that do extremely unnessissary amounts of damage and have absurd pools of health stop to resurrect players in a movement-based game? ANet is going to catch utter hell for this decision and quite frankly they deserve it if they think this is a good idea.

KratosAngel, well put!

This is exactly the ditinguishing factor between Fractals and ur regular dungeons, if people want that sort of challenge then go do fractals.
Another issue with this is, the person who is dead is essentially now leeching the points, so wait Anet wanted to not allow zerging but they will promote leeching?

How will they prevent someone who purposely just dies and still gets the dungeon reward? I guess lets all reward leechers now, thats the way to do it. sarcasm intended

Every time I start to second guess my decision not to bother with dungeons, I come to the forums and get to read something that verifies my decision.
The elitists say L2P, and the devs say “let’s try to think of as many things as we can to prevent L2P from being fun, or even possible.”

At least in GW1, you could find someone every once in a while who could help you learn something new, like a new build that helped in a tough mission or area (Though there were lots of ‘no-noob’ runs like Duncan the Black or speed clears). Or you could use heroes to go in and get a clue of how to beat the mission or dungeon.
In GW2 without a decent LFG tool and separate servers and 5-man teams where one weak link/learner hoses the group, and most groups opting for elitist, what is the point of trying to learn?

I’m a bit disappointed about it. I play my g.f. and our friends who are not hardcore players who stat calculate nor do they use Specialty builds. I mean I’m usually the one that dies the least in our party holding the aggro, attacking and rezzing other players and anything else I need to do. Removing the waypoints means that now I either have to limit myself to just rezzing them non stop to keep the party alive or go find a more specialized group to complete them which I don’t want to do and is punishing good players like myself. That is the reason we don’t play fractals and personally I avoid fractals. I hate the grind of Fractals. As far as Dungeon’s are for only the elite and bad players shouldn’t be rewarded I’ll have to disagree. As stated they are already punished with DP and Repair Costs. If they want a harder difficulty then add a Hard Mode Option for the dungeons.

Oh LOOK that boss just just 1-shoted you right at the start of the fight,now you can have the FUN FUN FUN experience of watching your corpse for 15 minutes till your teammates kill the boss.
FUN FUN FUN

LOL What a TERRIBAD idea. Can’t wait to see how this works out on COF path 2 and Subject Alpha. Honestly, instead of punishing players and stacking the odds against them you should be introducing MORE waypoints…instead of forcing people to run back ages for no good reason other than wasting time. This and the AOE nerfs are two awful awful ideas and you should really rethink them before going live.

So….lfg’s would look like this now…?

“LF2M, Full exotic only, link all gear, EXPERIENCED ONLY OR KICK, Magic Find GTFO”

Hah, slippery slope if they don’t balance the damage they deal in dungeons, it will be a hostile elitest-ville groupings even more so and would cripple pug runs.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Let’s put it this way:

You got an exam.

No matter how badly you do in that exam, you’ll still pass anyway. How is that a good test of your knowledge?

It’s the same with dungeons: They’re a test of skill. If you can just keep running to your death and still get your reward (“passing the test”), how is that good design.

Your analogy doesn’t really fly because there’s no guarantee that the waypoint zerg will always beat the boss, as it only works so long as one target remains alive until the others can reach the boss room again (which is harder than it sounds at times). I honestly don’t think that’s a problem.

I do, however, think that telling players they cannot self-rez in a dungeon while their party fights for its life is a bad idea. It’s punishing players a bit too much for dying. It means your party is that much more likely to wipe. It means having to make a decision between fighting the boss with only four or severely cutting your group DPS to help your lost teammate up (all while hoping that the boss doesn’t go for you as you try to rez your teammate). And most of all, it means frustration will set in much sooner in most general PUGs, leading to the dungeon run being abandoned.

People claim this is all about “skill” but it really boils down to playability, and the proposed model decreases the playability of the dungeons, especially when there are so many ways to be OHKOed in dungeons. You may argue that zerg rushes from the waypoint are bad design, and that’s fair enough. But rendering 10 minutes of a party’s effort worthless because of one guy getting spiked at the wrong time thus leading to total party collapse….that’s hardly good design, either.

It’s okay to try and negotiate some middle ground here, and it’s already a mechanic that other games have done before: just set a hard cap on the time between resurrections, starting out low (say, 5-10 seconds) and steadily increasing if you die within X amount of time of your last waypoint rez. Poof, the waypoint zerg is basically DEAD, unless that solo party member left alive out of the five is awfully kitten good at avoiding death for a long period of time….and really, shouldn’t the idea be to REWARD that kind of success, rather than punish it?

Brangien.7462:

“LF2M, Full exotic only, link all gear, EXPERIENCED ONLY OR KICK, Magic Find GTFO”

That looks like most lfgs in GW1 elite mission hubs.

We’ll see if it’ll turn to this soon.

Yeah bad idea to me too, generally i never need a Zerg rush to kill a boss, but is true that are some bosses who Spam AOE attack that is really hard to ress because if you dont rush to rez a player he simple die because the AOE attacks ( Lupicus, TOA Vine etc..), and if you rush is a great risk that anothers player trying give res die too, and if the player is full down it take the res take AGES, is better leave him in the floor, you are risking too much.

I dont know, i think that something to try stop the zerg rush is OK, but i saw this more like a bad thing that good and a lazy solution, just lay in the floor without play, watching the rest of your team dying seems boring and a great punishment.

-1 to this solution.

ASB.4295:

Brangien.7462:

“LF2M, Full exotic only, link all gear, EXPERIENCED ONLY OR KICK, Magic Find GTFO”

That looks like most lfgs in GW1 elite mission hubs.

We’ll see if it’ll turn to this soon.

It will be even worse than that..LFG only warrior guardian and mesmer any one else f off

In my opinion they should offer a solo/scaled down more casual version of dungeons with obviously less rewards,

but a chance for players to learn it so they CAN eventually join the elite-ist groups.

DDO did this and it worked out GREAT.

Mitch.4781:

ASB.4295:

Brangien.7462:

“LF2M, Full exotic only, link all gear, EXPERIENCED ONLY OR KICK, Magic Find GTFO”

That looks like most lfgs in GW1 elite mission hubs.

We’ll see if it’ll turn to this soon.

It will be even worse than that..LFG only warrior guardian and mesmer any one else f off

hah, its already heading down that route sadly.

Lucky.4263:

TheDaiBish.9735:

morrolan.9608:

TheDaiBish.9735:

morrolan.9608:

TheDaiBish.9735:

The only reason I assume this though is because he specifically mentioned waypoint zerging to be an issue,

An issue for whom? This is PvE how can it be an issue except for more uncompromising players.

“only way to beat some of the difficult encounters at the moment is to have dead players run back from nearby waypoints while players that are alive kite the mobs)”

That’s the issue.

Really so what, if a group wants to do that who does it hurt?

It’s just plain poor game design, getting rewarded for playing poorly. It just brings the game down.

You’re not catering to ‘casuals’ then, you’re catering to ‘entitled’ gamers who think that they have the right to complete the dungeon, regardless of how poorly they play.

Ex A: AC P2 defending charr fixing mortars. Ghost spawn: ele, necro, ranger. Me: huddle in feedle positions and take kitten beating
Ex B: CoF defending asura Me: huddle in feedle position and take kitten beating, respawn rinse and repeat.

…. etc

so yes i feel i am “entitled” to a reward for getting my kitten handed to me on a silver platter… im not the best player but i understand my class and how to play it, in both of those encounters i listed none of that matters.

Uh, yeah, sorry, that’s your end. The group I regular AC with completely wipes the floor with every mob that even tries to take one step towards Detha, and in CoF path 2 we usually only have the Hellstorm or a couple of the archer types left before the event is over.

You are not entitled to it, because you did not earn it. Stop pugging with terrible people, or step up your own game.

Soooo…this doesn’t help already skilled player or players whom already have a decent guild. This does hurt players who are new to MMO’s (one of their targeted audiences), players who pug a lot, or players who are learning a dungeon. Brings nothing to the table to help any player base. Again, who do they have at these meetings where this stuff is brought up?

Letifer.4360:

expect some classes with lower DPS to not be allowed in certain dungeon paths (Ranger I’m looking at you) really some encounters are impossible to do without decent DPS, like path 2 CoF for example. Someone here said that he did AC with some low lvl party members and that it wasn’t impossible, sure it isn’t but I doubt people will wan’t to take 2 hours instead of 15/20 min in a path. This will require a massive nerf in the encounters.

I did AC all 3 paths last night with a 35, a 47 a 58 and a pair of 80’s and it didnt take all that long. a powerhouse of decked out 80s would have been faster but only by 5-10 minutes per path and thats mostly because I’d expect the 80s to know the run (2 of the lowbies got their AC explorable cherry’s popped and needed a bit of hand holding) Anybody that feels the need to exclude all but the top potential DPS are either very impatient or just compensating for sub par play as in most cases better play will still succeed in a reasonable time frame.

Mitch.4781:

It will be even worse than that..LFG only warrior guardian and mesmer any one else f off

Again, sounds pretty much like what the meta dictated in GW1. If you didn’t have a profession with the right build and equipment for the mission’s established speed clear build, you could gtfo. Okay, leveling and gearing up was a lot faster, so you had the option of rerolling to fill another role to increase your chances of getting into groups, but still.

Another issue that im think, before when you are full down you dont recive loot from bosses, you have to comeback and rush and hit the boss to get your loot.

Now what, they will fix this or if your team dont give you res before the boss die you have no loot ?

KratosAngel.7289:

4) So, the game is supposed to be fun. Now tell me, how is lying dead, not being able to do anything and watching your team slowly dying fun ? Manifesto meant for players to actually PLAY the game and have death not too tragic an event.
With this, death will be a major threat and it removes fun of people learning mechanics.

That right there is the clincher to me. Lying around doing nothing is not fun, and restricting waypoint ressing is definately going to increase how much of that you’re going to be doing if you aren’t great at survival. And also as said, you won’t be learning much about the timing to dodge and such if you’re dead on the ground (at best you can watch your teammates who can dodge I guess, but its not the same as doing it yourself).

critickitten.1498:

I do, however, think that telling players they cannot self-rez in a dungeon while their party fights for its life is a bad idea. It’s punishing players a bit too much for dying. It means your party is that much more likely to wipe. It means having to make a decision between fighting the boss with only four or severely cutting your group DPS to help your lost teammate up (all while hoping that the boss doesn’t go for you as you try to rez your teammate). And most of all, it means frustration will set in much sooner in most general PUGs, leading to the dungeon run being abandoned.

People claim this is all about “skill” but it really boils down to playability, and the proposed model decreases the playability of the dungeons, especially when there are so many ways to be OHKOed in dungeons. You may argue that zerg rushes from the waypoint are bad design, and that’s fair enough. But rendering 10 minutes of a party’s effort worthless because of one guy getting spiked at the wrong time thus leading to total party collapse….that’s hardly good design, either.

It’s okay to try and negotiate some middle ground here, and it’s already a mechanic that other games have done before: just set a hard cap on the time between resurrections, starting out low (say, 5-10 seconds) and steadily increasing if you die within X amount of time of your last waypoint rez. Poof, the waypoint zerg is basically DEAD, unless that solo party member left alive out of the five is awfully kitten good at avoiding death for a long period of time….and really, shouldn’t the idea be to REWARD that kind of success, rather than punish it?

Also that. With waypoint rezzing, if you die you hurt yourself (repair costs) and you do detriment your team to some degree during the time it takes you to you run back, but at least you’re able to get back to the fight on your own in a decent amount of time and without further hurting the team.

Without waypointing, you dying is a massive detriment to the team. You permanently lose 1/5 the damage and survivability of the team when someone dies, and the only way to restore that is to remove another 1/5 for a time as someone rezzes them.

The degree you hurt your team by dying is going to increase greatly with this change, which is only going to lead to more hostility towards people who aren’t great at staying alive. I’ve heard plenty of complaining from people about players who just die too much in dungeons and how irritating they are as it is, but with this its going to go beyond just irritation. Who knows how long people are going to put up with it before you just get thrown out.

Koheler should be interesting with less experienced groups lol. I like the contrast of oh “we don’t want you to skip mobs and bosses but we are going to give you even less incentive to them now than ever before!” Yay!

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

First week in Cof p2 when this comes will be hilarious.

I will be on the disagree side as well for this. Unless they make the dungeon revamp really promising. Yes, it will be like fotm and most people are used to checkpoint wipe. But there is one boss at around LV 18+ that drive me crazy with this feature, the Imbued Shaman. The zerg of Lava Elemental made me decide to avoid this path from now on as much as possible (Was an easy boss in lower level). Imagine CoF, and TA Nightmare Vine, CoE Alpha, SE, and probably AC ghost zerg of path 2. Well, almost every single dungeon has at least one path for the revamp. Oh and don’t forget some of story modes.
Or it’s a NIGHTMARE.
Or we will be requiring 5 Warriors for every single dungeon.
So when the feature is implemented, I will be really expecting a Really good dungeon revamp

lol at anet,

so dev, tell me how to ress my party member at COE p3 boss ‘Experimental Subject’ when my teammate fall to the lava ?

design at coe p3 already bad, and w/o waypoint u make it almost impossible to beat, except u have ranger/enginer in ur party, but heck, that will take more than 15m to kill that boss only …

Since they’re putting in this new feature, can we maybe see more waypoints in certain dungeons? coughTAcough

ColinJohanson.2394:

Just to clarify, you’ll no longer be able to use waypoints when a party member is in combat inside a dungeon. This is prevent people from using waypoints to rush and kill bosses or clear areas, which is not intended game play.

All other forms of res remain unchanged.

this will prevent people from completing the dungeons entirely. Sometimes the only way to beat bosses was to make sure that at least one party member is alive in there and rush back from a waypoint far away hoping to reach the boss before the party member dies and the boss resets. Some of these kind of runs take 2-3 hours. Some bosses can be really tough. Glad that I got my dungeon gear already. Won’t be setting my foot in one again.

Mirta.5029:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Just to clarify, you’ll no longer be able to use waypoints when a party member is in combat inside a dungeon. This is prevent people from using waypoints to rush and kill bosses or clear areas, which is not intended game play.

All other forms of res remain unchanged.

Glad that I got my dungeon gear already. Won’t be setting my foot in one again.

On the plus side, i may now actually have a use for my tailorer and armoursmith :|

critickitten.1498:

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Your analogy doesn’t really fly because there’s no guarantee that the waypoint zerg will always beat the boss, as it only works so long as one target remains alive until the others can reach the boss room again (which is harder than it sounds at times). I honestly don’t think that’s a problem.

I do, however, think that telling players they cannot self-rez in a dungeon while their party fights for its life is a bad idea. It’s punishing players a bit too much for dying. It means your party is that much more likely to wipe. It means having to make a decision between fighting the boss with only four or severely cutting your group DPS to help your lost teammate up (all while hoping that the boss doesn’t go for you as you try to rez your teammate). And most of all, it means frustration will set in much sooner in most general PUGs, leading to the dungeon run being abandoned.

People claim this is all about “skill” but it really boils down to playability, and the proposed model decreases the playability of the dungeons, especially when there are so many ways to be OHKOed in dungeons. You may argue that zerg rushes from the waypoint are bad design, and that’s fair enough. But rendering 10 minutes of a party’s effort worthless because of one guy getting spiked at the wrong time thus leading to total party collapse….that’s hardly good design, either.

It’s okay to try and negotiate some middle ground here, and it’s already a mechanic that other games have done before: just set a hard cap on the time between resurrections, starting out low (say, 5-10 seconds) and steadily increasing if you die within X amount of time of your last waypoint rez. Poof, the waypoint zerg is basically DEAD, unless that solo party member left alive out of the five is awfully kitten good at avoiding death for a long period of time….and really, shouldn’t the idea be to REWARD that kind of success, rather than punish it?

I should probably put my argument forward better:

People aren’t taking into consideration everything they’re working on alongside this

A lot of the arguments are “well, x boss in y dungeon does z, which makes it harder.”

However, remember the devs will be balancing fights around the fact that you can’t waypoint zerg anymore. Given their statement that they’ll be nerfing, and then reviewing, increasing difficulty as necessary (phase 2), makes it sound like they’ll be slightly under-tuning fights at first and gradually building up.

This means reviewing 1HKO, and ridiculous AoE spam, surely?

People aren’t taking into consideration Death Penalty

No-one dies straight away. The only way someone will get Defeated straight away is if they get Downed 5 times in one minute. After a minute, one point goes away.

So, for example, you get Downed 3 times (50% health), but don’t get Downed for another minute, the Downed health then goes up to 75%.

Coinciding with point one, because the fight mechanics are going to be balanced around not way-point zerging, this could potentially mean reviving allies will become easier.

After the fight then, you just wait for the DP to wear off.

Both of these points are a case of ‘wait and see’.

If it was just a case of ‘well, you can’t res at way-point anymore’, I’d be agreeing with the lot of you.

But the system has the potential to be a lot more lenient than a lot of people realise (depending on how they balance encounter mechanics).

Merendel.7128:

Letifer.4360:

expect some classes with lower DPS to not be allowed in certain dungeon paths (Ranger I’m looking at you) really some encounters are impossible to do without decent DPS, like path 2 CoF for example. Someone here said that he did AC with some low lvl party members and that it wasn’t impossible, sure it isn’t but I doubt people will wan’t to take 2 hours instead of 15/20 min in a path. This will require a massive nerf in the encounters.

I did AC all 3 paths last night with a 35, a 47 a 58 and a pair of 80’s and it didnt take all that long. a powerhouse of decked out 80s would have been faster but only by 5-10 minutes per path and thats mostly because I’d expect the 80s to know the run (2 of the lowbies got their AC explorable cherry’s popped and needed a bit of hand holding) Anybody that feels the need to exclude all but the top potential DPS are either very impatient or just compensating for sub par play as in most cases better play will still succeed in a reasonable time frame.

Sorry but I don’t believe that a team of lowbies can do AC that fast from the experience I have had with them in pugs, that just wont happen period. The DPS isn’t a question of doing a dungeon faster, its a question of doing it or be stuck and quit in some cases like I said.