Guild Wars 2

One problem for non dps builds is:

Support Skills are Utility Skills in general and dont interfere much with the own dps. Boon Duration from traits is no more. Only Runes, bufffood and the Utility Skills are really important except healing.

Crowd Control are Utility Skills or Weapon Skills. The dps from cc Weapons is in the most cases bad but with weapon switch you can use is with a full dps build. Boss Immunity makes it hard.

Problem in groups:

Groups favor 4-5 Members of the same. A healer cant help a zerker group because they are glass canon and one dps more bring the dps up and negate the incoming damage in form from faster kills.

A tanky group with heals, can afk kill Bosses because they can heal enough. When i mix a dps in this group and he has maybe aggro because of the lack of aggro managment you cant help him to survive.

A CC specialist and a zerker group? It doesnt help alot because unshakable. For lot of CC effects on a boss you need many cc effects from al members.

In the end GW2 favors mono cultures in group play because they roles are incompatible without a trinity.

Another thing are the stats. You start at 80 as heavy armor user with 1000 strength and 2000 armor. Plus 1000 strength doubled you damage but 1000 Toughness doenst bring the incoming damage to 50%. The bigger start value make an investment bad because of opportunity costs.

nexxe.7081:

Ragmon.6350:

Imagine the WoW druid (tank, healer, dd) depending on which tree you spec-ed, now apply that for all the WoW classes. That is GW2’s profession system in a nutshell.
Just that here the players define what they want and need for certain groups.

Not really, because there isn’t Direct Healing for Healers, and there isn’t Controlled Threat mechanics for Tanks.

Yea and there are no Trolls, Orcs, Tauren, Elfs and Gnomes either… are ya gonna nitpick some more? There are more action bars too in WoW.
The point was there are classes in WoW that resemble the GW2 idea of multi all-role classes.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Until the game gets dedicated healers and tanks, and actually makes playing them worth while, that comment from the POI has no meaning.

Not true at all.

Ok so playing as a healer or tank is viable then?

vi·a·ble
?v??b(?)l/
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.

—

What isn’t viable?

fixit.7189:

Dinks.2478:

you’re just as useless to your team as a clerics guardian using a staff.

And there we have it, this is what it all comes down to.

You are useless if you go clerics or any other support type build/gear set that isn’t the meta dps; you heard it here first!

You don’t really get it – you are and you aren’t useless.
You are useless to a farm team because they’re there to farm. It’s not the game that made you useless it’s the other players.
The fact that they’re good enough to not get hit and not need your healing coupled with the fact that Anet gave everybody self-sufficiency via their own healing skill means you’re trying to fill a role that people don’t need.

It’s the players – not necessarily the encounter that push this.

Having a required healer role in my opinion is a worse situation than the one we have now where you can complete content with any set-up.

DeceiverX.8361:

Harper.4173:

(A lot of intelligent arguments as to why the trinity concept is absolutely no better than what we have right this moment.)

I think a big issue is that the very same players abiding by the meta they complain about do not know that they are the ones actually creating and enforcing it under the pretense they believe thy’re the victims of a flawed system decided solely by the mechanics of the game that can easily be solved, rather than copy-paste efficiency mentality and stagnant content.

The entire prospect of the “berserker meta” has absolutely nothing to do with the gear or the difficulty of the content but entirely to do with the content itself being stale, per what Indigo mentioned above.

Yes but the large masses ( even in this thread) cannot discern this issue and instead orient their anger and hate at the one thing that is apparently causing them discomfort.
Since they are being asked for “berserker gear” when they want to join a speed clear run clearly “berserker gear” must be the problem.

Not the fact that people can navigate content blindly because they’ve done so thousands of times.
Not the fact that they have joined a party that wants to farm and maximize efficiency.

That’s the really sad part here. Anet will fix a problem that’s not really there if they implement mandatory roles while the core issue of people excluding people because of farming will still be left since you can’t fix that.

Majic.4801:

Unholy Unity

As long as combat is “dodge or die”, DPS will continue to be the meta, as it has for the past three years.

I’m hoping Colin and the gang have learned from that, because if the new, challenging combat being touted for HoT continues in the “one-shot, insta-down” tradition we’ve seen so far, it won’t change anything at all.

When no gear or build can handle a single hit, the only logical tactic is to deal as much damage as possible to eliminate incoming attacks and avoid getting hit.

“DPS Uber Alles” is about as far from a “trinity” as it gets.

Again I’m seeing this reply pop-up. And I don’t understand why.

Zerker gear vs more tanky gear (let’s say PVT) CLEARLY gives more survivability to the PVT wearer.

I’ve done FOTM 50 in hybrid Zerk + Knights. In all encounters it allowed me to take 1-2 extra hits before going down as opposed to full zerk.

I can imagine that full Knights would make me even harder to down and that full PvT would be even easier.

The point is this – in this game tanky gear does not allow you to stand there indefinitely scratching your head wondering what to do next.
Full glass zerker means 1 and done. Mixing in more tanky gear will give you more free passes BUT the way they designed the game is that you’ll never be able to (or should be able to) eat 3-4 big boss attacks and not go down.

This is because they tried to create active dynamic combat where people dodge and move around and use active defense skills such as blocks blinds and reflects in order to not get hit in the first place.

GW2’s combat system encourages players not getting hit and rewards you for it but tanky gear is still very effective since you can increase your survival pretty effectively negating most 1-hit-kill attacks.

nexxe.7081:

Here’s how i’ve always interpreted the devs on this issue.

1. They never restricted roles or the trinity.
2. They wanted all roles to be viable to get groups faster, so players wouldn’t have to wait for a Tank or Healer to join.

That’s it. Anyone who has followed GW2 before it’s launch would have known this.

100% true.
This is what I’m afraid they’re going back on and if they do it’ll be a huge mistake.

Mandatory roles for content will be a very big issue that will destroy the delicate LFG situation we have now even more.

nexxe.7081:

cthaeh.2168:

Tigaseye.2047:

Harper.4173:

My concern is this : if they create hard roles and the content in HoT requires a certain role for the party to be completed we will go back to square one on the whole “waiting around for 1 person to finally engage in content” problem they sought out to solve in the first place.

Yes and I agree that is not ideal.

But, neither is (IMO) dictatorial, skipping>permastacking>meleeing, DPS-only parties, all in matching clothes…

So if the choice is between waiting in queue for hours or all the fun I’ve been having for the past few years, I’ll take fun.

An automatic dungeon tool would eliminate that problem. It works good with SPvP currently. The wait times are negligible.

You already see a huge amount of issues and friction between types of players that run dungeons with the current LFG tool that has the ability to choose and find similarly minded people.

Can you imagine the horror it would bring if you had an automated dungeon tool that bunched in filthy elitist scum with carebear casual cute players? It’d be incredibly frustrating for all involved.

Honestly, if they meant for the trinity, then they should have given everyone a taunt because without a taunt you can’t tank. I think they changed their statement because of the revenant, because they decided to design a class that has three specific roles built in which is fine. I loved the revenant. There isn’t another class in this game, though, that can tank not even warrior.

Harper.4173:

nexxe.7081:

Here’s how i’ve always interpreted the devs on this issue.

1. They never restricted roles or the trinity.
2. They wanted all roles to be viable to get groups faster, so players wouldn’t have to wait for a Tank or Healer to join.

That’s it. Anyone who has followed GW2 before it’s launch would have known this.

100% true.
This is what I’m afraid they’re going back on and if they do it’ll be a huge mistake.

Mandatory roles for content will be a very big issue that will destroy the delicate LFG situation we have now even more.

There isn’t much difference in waiting for a “Tank” or “Healer” than waiting for that PS Warrior, the Staff DPS Ele, the Guardian with the reflects or the Thief with the team stealth. “Pro” groups already have mandotory roles

Harper.4173:

nexxe.7081:

cthaeh.2168:

Tigaseye.2047:

Harper.4173:

My concern is this : if they create hard roles and the content in HoT requires a certain role for the party to be completed we will go back to square one on the whole “waiting around for 1 person to finally engage in content” problem they sought out to solve in the first place.

Yes and I agree that is not ideal.

But, neither is (IMO) dictatorial, skipping>permastacking>meleeing, DPS-only parties, all in matching clothes…

So if the choice is between waiting in queue for hours or all the fun I’ve been having for the past few years, I’ll take fun.

An automatic dungeon tool would eliminate that problem. It works good with SPvP currently. The wait times are negligible.

You already see a huge amount of issues and friction between types of players that run dungeons with the current LFG tool that has the ability to choose and find similarly minded people.

Can you imagine the horror it would bring if you had an automated dungeon tool that bunched in filthy elitist scum with carebear casual cute players? It’d be incredibly frustrating for all involved.

That would be a very good thing.

If “filthy elitist scum” want to dictate all rules, they should form their own “filthy elitist scum” guild and run with it.

That’s partly what guilds are supposed to be for – narrow interests.

They should not utilise the random dungeon queue system, unless they are prepared to take what they get, without complaints.

If they’re as good as they think they are, carrying a couple of “carebears” should be a piece of cake, anyway.

Harper.4173:

It’s the players – not necessarily the encounter that push this.

No, it’s the encounter.
The game was never built around a required healer/tank, but the devs intended to built it around a required soft trinity were at least a player was supposed to stand there dodging/mitigating/blocking/kiting the damage. Stacking was never meant to be META. In that scenario regenerations and heals would have proven more useful because it would have been harder to avoid all damage, but still they wouldn’t be needed.
TL;DR= the encounters are designed around not needing dedicated tanks, healers, or anything but dps weapons.

Arkblue.6129:

Harper.4173:

It’s the players – not necessarily the encounter that push this.

No, it’s the encounter.
The game was never built around a required healer/tank, but the devs intended to built it around a required soft trinity were at least a player was supposed to stand there dodging/mitigating/blocking/kiting the damage. Stacking was never meant to be META. In that scenario regenerations and heals would have proven more useful because it would have been harder to avoid all damage, but still they wouldn’t be needed.
TL;DR= the encounters are designed around not needing dedicated tanks, healers, or anything but dps weapons.

While stacking is not META but laziness from fake pros, I don’t think it makes the encounters easier. Basically if boss cleaves with a OHKO skill, everyone dies. If people are spread only those in range do. Now if you have a good support (not healer) he’s able to negate the damage for the entire team since they’re all around.

About the stacking, the only “mandatory” thing is the 600 radius for combo, shouts, phalanx….

So compared to your Tl;DR I would say : The encounters are designed around not needing mandatory healer, tank or minimal dps. You can test different team composition but DPS gear with a minimal support character will be the most effective.

maddoctor.2738:

Harper.4173:

nexxe.7081:

Here’s how i’ve always interpreted the devs on this issue.

1. They never restricted roles or the trinity.
2. They wanted all roles to be viable to get groups faster, so players wouldn’t have to wait for a Tank or Healer to join.

That’s it. Anyone who has followed GW2 before it’s launch would have known this.

100% true.
This is what I’m afraid they’re going back on and if they do it’ll be a huge mistake.

Mandatory roles for content will be a very big issue that will destroy the delicate LFG situation we have now even more.

There isn’t much difference in waiting for a “Tank” or “Healer” than waiting for that PS Warrior, the Staff DPS Ele, the Guardian with the reflects or the Thief with the team stealth. “Pro” groups already have mandotory roles

The problem is that none of these roles are mandatory because of the content. They are mandatory because some people impose them – and those people are willing to wait so it’s fine.

The problem with roles that are mandatory because of content is that you can’t choose to not take them.

Think about it like this : a PS war is nice to have but you can complete any dungeon in GW2 without one. If you want to wait for one it’s your choice but you’re not forced to do it – you can go with whatever if you want to.

A mandatory healer is something you can’t go without – you can’t choose to not take it if you want to complete since it’s mandatory and enforced by game mechanics.

What PRO teams do is one thing, what most PUG groups do is another.
Pro teams know each other and organize among themselves. PUGs form spontaneously and taking forever to PUG a healer is a terrible experience.

maddoctor.2738:

Harper.4173:

nexxe.7081:

Here’s how i’ve always interpreted the devs on this issue.

1. They never restricted roles or the trinity.
2. They wanted all roles to be viable to get groups faster, so players wouldn’t have to wait for a Tank or Healer to join.

That’s it. Anyone who has followed GW2 before it’s launch would have known this.

100% true.
This is what I’m afraid they’re going back on and if they do it’ll be a huge mistake.

Mandatory roles for content will be a very big issue that will destroy the delicate LFG situation we have now even more.

There isn’t much difference in waiting for a “Tank” or “Healer” than waiting for that PS Warrior, the Staff DPS Ele, the Guardian with the reflects or the Thief with the team stealth. “Pro” groups already have mandotory roles

I can’t remember the last time I waited 30 minutes to get a dungeon group in GW2. That is quite common practice in WoW for damage dealers.

Also you fail to understand 1 central difference. Having the game mechanics require certain classes is in no way equal to having players demand certain classes due to speed or ease of clearance.

Running a dungeon in a traditional MMO in general will not work without a healer and a tank. In GW2 any content can be cleared with almost any class and skill setup, it just varies in difficulty and speed.

Tigaseye.2047:

Harper.4173:

nexxe.7081:

cthaeh.2168:

Tigaseye.2047:

Harper.4173:

My concern is this : if they create hard roles and the content in HoT requires a certain role for the party to be completed we will go back to square one on the whole “waiting around for 1 person to finally engage in content” problem they sought out to solve in the first place.

Yes and I agree that is not ideal.

But, neither is (IMO) dictatorial, skipping>permastacking>meleeing, DPS-only parties, all in matching clothes…

So if the choice is between waiting in queue for hours or all the fun I’ve been having for the past few years, I’ll take fun.

An automatic dungeon tool would eliminate that problem. It works good with SPvP currently. The wait times are negligible.

You already see a huge amount of issues and friction between types of players that run dungeons with the current LFG tool that has the ability to choose and find similarly minded people.

Can you imagine the horror it would bring if you had an automated dungeon tool that bunched in filthy elitist scum with carebear casual cute players? It’d be incredibly frustrating for all involved.

That would be a very good thing.

If “filthy elitist scum” want to dictate all rules, they should form their own “filthy elitist scum” guild and run with it.

That’s partly what guilds are supposed to be for – narrow interests.

They should not utilise the random dungeon queue system, unless they are prepared to take what they get, without complaints.

If they’re as good as they think they are, carrying a couple of “carebears” should be a piece of cake, anyway.

I disagree – when a party is formed those forming it have a right to choose whomever they play with.
I can turn things right around and say that if people want to play casually they should make casual-oriented guilds and run with those.
Also if the interest is so “narrow” why is it you and other PHIW people keep complaining there are only “zerker meta parties?” is it because most people are running zerker meta?
If that is true how is the interest narrow? If it is untrue how is it that PHIW players complain there are no PHIW parties?

There’s really no right way to play -everyone is free to play however they want – yet you seem to think casual PHIW players should be “more free”.

You want to play with me – run what I want – if not we won’t play together. Simple as that.

The current LFG system is not random – IT HAS DESCRIPTIONS specifically to avoid these situations.

And even if you do “get what you get” there are many ways to make someone leave if you don’t like them – and both groups will attempt to “troll each other into leaving” because they dislike each other.

Nothing good will come of it.

If they’re as good as they think they are, carrying a couple of “carebears” should be a piece of cake, anyway.

This I cannot stand for and disagree with fundamentally.
Even if I could complete the hardest dungeon or content in the game with the single press of a button ( if it could be that easy for me) I would NEVER carry anyone to an undeserved reward or win.

People like me don’t carry others not because we can’t (which we could more or less) but because we dislike it and there’s no reason to do it. I don’t have to do something I dislike.
If carrying others is something that ruins the game for me I should not have to do it and I won’t.

If people want to get carried they can look elsewhere -I’m not going to put in the effort and dedication others aren’t willing to put in themselves so they can get undeserved rewards

Arkblue.6129:

Harper.4173:

It’s the players – not necessarily the encounter that push this.

No, it’s the encounter.
The game was never built around a required healer/tank, but the devs intended to built it around a required soft trinity were at least a player was supposed to stand there dodging/mitigating/blocking/kiting the damage. Stacking was never meant to be META. In that scenario regenerations and heals would have proven more useful because it would have been harder to avoid all damage, but still they wouldn’t be needed.
TL;DR= the encounters are designed around not needing dedicated tanks, healers, or anything but dps weapons.

I have followed this game’s new stream since day 1 of official announcement. Never have the devs stated they wanted someone to stand there mitigating stuff.

How exactly do you know what stacking was or was not intended to be?

The encounters are designed around not needing any dedicated roles and thus players that are very skilled can bring more damage than players that are new and inexperienced.

This is a player problem. At launch the situation wasn’t at all like this because players weren’t this good. You can’t fix a player skill problem by changing gear.

The encounters are difficult – test them with a party of 5 new and inexperienced players and see how “easy” most GW2 dungeons are.

Dungeons were designed to be hard and were hard back when nobody knew how to play their class, what bosses and enemies did, how to dodge and so forth.

Arkblue.6129:

Harper.4173:

It’s the players – not necessarily the encounter that push this.

No, it’s the encounter.
The game was never built around a required healer/tank, but the devs intended to built it around a required soft trinity were at least a player was supposed to stand there dodging/mitigating/blocking/kiting the damage. Stacking was never meant to be META. In that scenario regenerations and heals would have proven more useful because it would have been harder to avoid all damage, but still they wouldn’t be needed.
TL;DR= the encounters are designed around not needing dedicated tanks, healers, or anything but dps weapons.

It really seems to be both.

Otaur.9268:

If they find a way to include Amount of Health Healed During X Event, then MAYBE people will support again.

Tagging by healing was awesome when they changed the tagging rules in LotRO with the Riders of Rohan expansion. I could go around with my minstrel just putting HoTs onto random people I came across and would tag pretty much every fight going on in the vincinity without having to go near a monster once. No risk, all reward .

Once you’ve experienced a system where every random boon or heal thrown around would automatically tag the kills of the affected players, you’d understand why ANet doesn’t want to go that way. The “problem” of people afk-tagging events really is negligible compared to tagging by healing/buffing.

maddoctor.2738:

There isn’t much difference in waiting for a “Tank” or “Healer” than waiting for that PS Warrior, the Staff DPS Ele, the Guardian with the reflects or the Thief with the team stealth. “Pro” groups already have mandotory roles

Here is the difference.

In holy trinity game I need to wait for a tank of a Healer or I won’t be able to complete the content.

In GW2 If i want I can wait for a PS Warrior or a Staff DPS Ele, but nothing force me too. I can complete the dungeon with about anything. The quality and speed of the run will be different, but we gonna be able to complete it.

maddoctor.2738:

There isn’t much difference in waiting for a “Tank” or “Healer” than waiting for that PS Warrior, the Staff DPS Ele, the Guardian with the reflects or the Thief with the team stealth. “Pro” groups already have mandotory roles

News flash: the really “pro” groups know how to deal with the content just as well without those “mandatory” classes/builds.

Why wait for that guardian and thief that noone in your group cares to play just now when you can do both jobs just as well with a decent mesmer and some really minor strategy adjustments? Why wait around 10 minutes for a staff ele if you can just take the next person that comes along on another class and take a minute or two longer (still saving you 8-9 minutes of wait time)?

Now if you’re one of those people that freak and give up if the icebow freeze doesn’t hit perfectly each fight, then I can see your problem, but if you really know class and combat mechanics in this game there’s nothing forcing you to wait for a specific class/build to run any of the dungeons we have.

Harny.6012:

Arkblue.6129:

Harper.4173:

It’s the players – not necessarily the encounter that push this.

No, it’s the encounter.
The game was never built around a required healer/tank, but the devs intended to built it around a required soft trinity were at least a player was supposed to stand there dodging/mitigating/blocking/kiting the damage. Stacking was never meant to be META. In that scenario regenerations and heals would have proven more useful because it would have been harder to avoid all damage, but still they wouldn’t be needed.
TL;DR= the encounters are designed around not needing dedicated tanks, healers, or anything but dps weapons.

It really seems to be both.

To those saying it’s the encounter – I ask you this :

Was GW2 easy at launch?

Is GW2 easy for a party of 5 newcomers even if fully geared in exotic and level 80?

Harper.4173:

Harny.6012:

Arkblue.6129:

Harper.4173:

It’s the players – not necessarily the encounter that push this.

No, it’s the encounter.
The game was never built around a required healer/tank, but the devs intended to built it around a required soft trinity were at least a player was supposed to stand there dodging/mitigating/blocking/kiting the damage. Stacking was never meant to be META. In that scenario regenerations and heals would have proven more useful because it would have been harder to avoid all damage, but still they wouldn’t be needed.
TL;DR= the encounters are designed around not needing dedicated tanks, healers, or anything but dps weapons.

It really seems to be both.

To those saying it’s the encounter – I ask you this :

Was GW2 easy at launch?

Is GW2 easy for a party of 5 newcomers even if fully geared in exotic and level 80?

No, i still remember there are a lot of players that prefer soldier or knight gear in dungeon. Its almost 3 years now, the dungeons are getting old….

To me, the devs seem to be preparing the ground for a massive boost to healing power. They really like that Ventari Tablet spec. Players appear to believe healing is near-worthless unless it’s;

1. Your healing skill or
2. Blasting a water field

With massive spike damage causing issues everywhere, mitigation is important, but devs don’t want PvP fights to go on forever, so they will probably leave the spike in the game but offer PvE players viable healing specs.

That’s what I think and is my * O P I N I O N * .

For a PUG, having people help with healing or damage mitigation might be helpful, but for over all survive chances Anet has made a game that favors DPS simply in the way they made Bosses work while making most trash mobs easy to ignore or roll over regardless of your build.

Fact is, until healers/support can effectively negate those big boss haymakers that don’t care how much armor you have or how many hit points you have and can still down you in one hit their utility in a group is nil.

All they do is prolong a fight thereby giving the boss that many more chances to use the big “kill everything hit”, which means increased chances of party wipes. And I say all of this as someone who likes to play tank/healer. The game just wasn’t designed well for them.

Now, that being said, newer content (like SW and the Vinewraith) have made my role as a healer/tank much more important and I love getting to flex those muscles, but I also have to remember to spec for some amount of damage or the fights will take forever. Now is it good to have someone out there doing pure healing? Meh…maybe, but its really not necessary as long as everyone can spec enough into their own healing as well as damage the way I did on my Guardian.

And just to add something else: I am really not down on the whole healing spec thing as my main warrior has been running full clerics and some combo of banners/shouts/warhorn since I made her ages ago. Her banners helped a lot during that S1 scarlet nonsense keeping people standing in the tower fights as well as WvW, but its was all secondary padding for those people there.

“No Tank. No Healer. No Trinity. ONLY RAW DPS! YEAAAA!!!”
This is sad.

I was in many groups. I were in none meta groups, semi meta ones, and part of full meta. All I can say, that full meta was not only the fastest, but also the easiest.
Zerker meta is not slightly faster, and easier. It is like compare 100m sprint of professional athlete, with overweight 80 years old.
Playing anything other than pure DPS is not only not helpful. It often burden rest of team, as other statistics scale badly compared to damage stats.
Being more tanky supposed to make content easier, but I didn’t find it true. Running CoF in cleric gear was more often curse than blessing.
Longer fights don’t mean they are easier you still need to use your active defences, because there happen “big bang attacks” that have to be dodged, and after your defences are used up then you have to wait for them to recharge (zerker group often finish boss, before it happen).

Is it possible to finish all content, some would say yes (I would love if someone can provide arah p4 with nomad party it would be fun to see, well part of it because I don’t have eternity to watch), but is it worth it?
Playing non-Zerker is like playing Neverwinter, and not buying astral diamonds.
Is it possible? Yes. But on every step you are reminded how much easier, and faster would be if you were. If you don’t it can change into not nice experience.

There is a trinity, it is just not fledged out. Healing – everybody has a healing skill. Utility – comes in form of reflects, blinds, stealth, weakness, protection, aegis, etc.
DPS – every class can bring DPS to the table. The thing is that neither healing, nor utility is killing the enemy. And killing the enemy as fast as possible is what you are aiming for. So healing and utility gets minimized, while the DPS gets maximized. Right now the encounters are that easy that there is simply no room for a character fully dedicated to healing or providing utility.

Nil – the question you should be asking yourself is this :

Were the full meta groups much easier and faster because they were full meta or because people knew what they were doing and you were running with good players?

See – the problem here is people get tricked into thinking they have an easier time in those “full zerk dps parties” because of the gear but the truth of it is that they’re having an easier time mostly because of the players.

I’ve been in PHIW parties and the number one problem I’ve encountered was this : people were bad, stubborn and didn’t know what to do or when to do it.

The reason zerk parties are so effective has a lot to do with the kind of people the “zerk” play style attracts.
These “no silly business” all serious and efficiency driven players sink THOUSANDS of hours into the game and run encounters thousands of times. So yes – I would Imagine a run with such players would be easy.

Alternatively if you run with PHIW parties the problem might not be their gear but their skill.

Do you think a run of any dungeon with “filthy elitist scum zerk players” dressed up as let’s say PVT would be hard ?
Do you think a run of any dungeon with really bad PHIW players that don’t even read chat in full zerk would be easy?

Harper.4173:

Nil – the question you should be asking yourself is this :

Were the full meta groups much easier and faster because they were full meta or because people knew what they were doing and you were running with good players?

See – the problem here is people get tricked into thinking they have an easier time in those “full zerk dps parties” because of the gear but the truth of it is that they’re having an easier time mostly because of the players.

I’ve been in PHIW parties and the number one problem I’ve encountered was this : people were bad, stubborn and didn’t know what to do or when to do it.

The reason zerk parties are so effective has a lot to do with the kind of people the “zerk” play style attracts.
These “no silly business” all serious and efficiency driven players sink THOUSANDS of hours into the game and run encounters thousands of times. So yes – I would Imagine a run with such players would be easy.

Alternatively if you run with PHIW parties the problem might not be their gear but their skill.

Do you think a run of any dungeon with “filthy elitist scum zerk players” dressed up as let’s say PVT would be hard ?
Do you think a run of any dungeon with really bad PHIW players that don’t even read chat in full zerk would be easy?

Its not that black or white. Its more than a bit of both.

Part of the player skill or game knowledge that has increased over the last nearly three years is which gear combinations provide the best results.

Harper.4173:

Arkblue.6129:

Harper.4173:

It’s the players – not necessarily the encounter that push this.

No, it’s the encounter.
The game was never built around a required healer/tank, but the devs intended to built it around a required soft trinity were at least a player was supposed to stand there dodging/mitigating/blocking/kiting the damage. Stacking was never meant to be META. In that scenario regenerations and heals would have proven more useful because it would have been harder to avoid all damage, but still they wouldn’t be needed.
TL;DR= the encounters are designed around not needing dedicated tanks, healers, or anything but dps weapons.

I have followed this game’s new stream since day 1 of official announcement. Never have the devs stated they wanted someone to stand there mitigating stuff.

How exactly do you know what stacking was or was not intended to be?

Because stacking depaupers the game experience and remove mobility and several abilities from the equation.
OHKO? Knockback? Just dodge IF you don’t have aegis or stability.
Really, it’s not about mitigation ONLY, but if they put certain kind of things into the game is because they wanted people to use them.

But hey, if you prefer to believe that the purposely left things to be abused like corner stacking and standing on the ledges against Frost in CM, feel free to do so.

But then don’t be offended when “edgy guy” talks about PVE content that “is not gonna be terrible” during events.

Let me point this out to you Arkblue – but Anet is not developing their first game here.

GW1 had corner stacking.
GW1 had mechanics that made mobs run away from AOE attacks and not stack in certain situations.

People abused corners in GW1 and there were mechanics present to avoid it in certain situations.

The fact that the same company produces GW2 a few years later yet these mechanics are not in place makes me feel that they must have wanted for this or at least something similar to be in play.

I can’t imagine them not knowing about stacking or not being aware of how effective it is.

Heck – balling mobs up and burning them down was a critical tactic used in Speed clears back in GW1 ( FOWSC 100b spike).

I really don’t see how your vision of “they didn’t want this” blends with the current state of the game.

Also there’s the issue of how boons work – there’s clearly incentive to stay close to your team.
There’s the way cleave works – if more mobs are closer together you do damage to all of them at the same time.

These didn’t come out of nowhere – the developers put these in.

Are you saying they were ignorant of the fact stacking would become the norm?

Harper.4173:

Nil – the question you should be asking yourself is this :

Were the full meta groups much easier and faster because they were full meta or because people knew what they were doing and you were running with good players?

Well the rally system is abused in zerker group. It should be harder in zerker group and it is. As long as it’s against 1 single boss. The moment there is thrash mobs, rally make zerker group so much easier.

Harper.4173:

Let me point this out to you Arkblue – but Anet is not developing their first game here.

GW1 had corner stacking.
GW1 had mechanics that made mobs run away from AOE attacks and not stack in certain situations.

People abused corners in GW1 and there were mechanics present to avoid it in certain situations.

The fact that the same company produces GW2 a few years later yet these mechanics are not in place makes me feel that they must have wanted for this or at least something similar to be in play.

I can’t imagine them not knowing about stacking or not being aware of how effective it is.

Heck – balling mobs up and burning them down was a critical tactic used in Speed clears back in GW1 ( FOWSC 100b spike).

I really don’t see how your vision of “they didn’t want this” blends with the current state of the game.

Also there’s the issue of how boons work – there’s clearly incentive to stay close to your team.
There’s the way cleave works – if more mobs are closer together you do damage to all of them at the same time.

These didn’t come out of nowhere – the developers put these in.

Are you saying they were ignorant of the fact stacking would become the norm?

From Software developed Dark Souls 1 and 2.
Dark Souls had better weapon collision and hitboxes than Dark Souls 2.
Either the company decided to make a worse product out of spite, or they simply decide to not waste their resources on the fixing of that issues.
Which is what I think Anet did with GW2 and AoE. They weren’t ignorant of that, they said “you know what? It’s not worth our efforts”.
Rounding up mobs for clearing them with AoE is one thing, always stacking because of a 600 range on EVERY party buffs is another thing.
Currently, the game rewards stacking, but also punishes everything else. If you think they purposefully did that, then I don’t know what to say.

Arkblue.6129:

Harper.4173:

It’s the players – not necessarily the encounter that push this.

No, it’s the encounter.
The game was never built around a required healer/tank, but the devs intended to built it around a required soft trinity were at least a player was supposed to stand there dodging/mitigating/blocking/kiting the damage. Stacking was never meant to be META. In that scenario regenerations and heals would have proven more useful because it would have been harder to avoid all damage, but still they wouldn’t be needed.
TL;DR= the encounters are designed around not needing dedicated tanks, healers, or anything but dps weapons.

I feel like you’ve never done a dungeon or something. There is a soft trinity. Every single META build accounts for various forms of control and support. Reflects, blinds, vulnerability, weakness, blocks, dodges, buffs, etc. Every single build accounts for this.

Stacking is a thing that is used in literally every single game since the beginning of time. Without stacking we’d all look like we were chickens with our heads cut off running in circles.

Dinks.2478:

Arkblue.6129:

Harper.4173:

It’s the players – not necessarily the encounter that push this.

No, it’s the encounter.
The game was never built around a required healer/tank, but the devs intended to built it around a required soft trinity were at least a player was supposed to stand there dodging/mitigating/blocking/kiting the damage. Stacking was never meant to be META. In that scenario regenerations and heals would have proven more useful because it would have been harder to avoid all damage, but still they wouldn’t be needed.
TL;DR= the encounters are designed around not needing dedicated tanks, healers, or anything but dps weapons.

I feel like you’ve never done a dungeon or something. There is a soft trinity. Every single META build accounts for various forms of control and support. Reflects, blinds, vulnerability, weakness, blocks, dodges, buffs, etc. Every single build accounts for this.

Stacking is a thing that is used in literally every single game since the beginning of time. Without stacking we’d all look like we were chickens with our heads cut off running in circles.

Well, reflects are usually brought because they increase dps. Aegis and dodges are used, but I rarely see Warriors bringing hammers or maces to apply weakness. Usually the utility spells offer enough utility to clear content easily. And at that point, why bringing a utility weapon when you can go full DPS, clear faster and avoid even more damage?

Stacking has been around since the beginning of time because that’s how gw works in general, both for weapon cleaves and party buffs, and I can’t say that’s a good thing.
http://gruulchant.ytmnd.com/

Warriors don’t bring hammers because they bring greatswords for PS. They apply massive amounts of might and vulnerability. Weakness isn’t all that good so its a low priority but classes might bring it. This is why Power Necro isn’t a huge meta class. They hit really hard but they don’t/didn’t bring too much to the group outside of raw damage.

An example of how important a PS warrior is pre-23rd patch. Warrior would still bring PS over pure DPS even though they hit a lot weaker. Because its a party buff that is more important than pure damage. Anybody that has ever looked at one of the meta builds should know right away that it isn’t about raw damage, it is about bringing the most to the party while still doing a lot of damage.

Dinks.2478:

Anybody that has ever looked at one of the meta builds should know right away that it isn’t about raw damage, it is about bringing the most to the party while still doing a lot of damage.

There is nothing wrong in caring only about damage, but still, you are only caring about damage. It’s ok, it’s the gw2 trademark, but it’s also a quite disappointing experience.

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Anybody that has ever looked at one of the meta builds should know right away that it isn’t about raw damage, it is about bringing the most to the party while still doing a lot of damage.

There is nothing wrong in caring only about damage, but still, you are only caring about damage. It’s ok, it’s the gw2 trademark, but it’s also a quite disappointing experience.

I’ve already pointed out that it isn’t about raw damage. To deny reality and live in your own world where you’re right is childish and wrong.

A grand example is Phalanx Strength warriors. Prior to June 23rd they did way less damage than pure DPS warriors. But they were still preferred because they were better for the party as a whole. Instead of more selfish direct damage utilities they’d bring banners, they’d bring might, they’d bring vulnerability.

It isn’t about raw damage it is about the party.

Ya but Phalanx is still about raw damage. It’s party wide damage over personnal damage.

GW2 have a huge place for support, but it’s underused. You can have enough support from a full dps build to do any content if you are a half decent player. You never really need protection, weakness. You only see sigil of energy in solo run. You never hear someone asking for vigor. Mesmer and Guardian sacrifice some trait to gain more reflect, but that’s pretty much it. If the content would be more challeging, we would have a more wide variety of build between DPS and Support. If they made CC important, then you have the true soft trinity that Anet talked about from the beginning. DPS, Support and CC.

Dinks.2478:

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Anybody that has ever looked at one of the meta builds should know right away that it isn’t about raw damage, it is about bringing the most to the party while still doing a lot of damage.

There is nothing wrong in caring only about damage, but still, you are only caring about damage. It’s ok, it’s the gw2 trademark, but it’s also a quite disappointing experience.

I’ve already pointed out that it isn’t about raw damage. To deny reality and live in your own world where you’re right is childish and wrong.

A grand example is Phalanx Strength warriors. Prior to June 23rd they did way less damage than pure DPS warriors. But they were still preferred because they were better for the party as a whole. Instead of more selfish direct damage utilities they’d bring banners, they’d bring might, they’d bring vulnerability.

It isn’t about raw damage it is about the party.

It’s about party damage. You aren’t talking about weakness, blinds, stuns, or controls.
They are not needed.
You aren’t talking about regeneration, aegis, or stability.
They are not needed (except for skips, maybe).

You are talking about:
Party Damage.
PS= party damage.
DPS =personal damage.

currently it’s the least common multiplier of the game.

And I’m ok with them not being needed, I’m less ok with them not having a place in PvE because things dies before they are useful. i.e. before stamina is drained, healing skills are on cd, and personal blocks have been used.

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Anybody that has ever looked at one of the meta builds should know right away that it isn’t about raw damage, it is about bringing the most to the party while still doing a lot of damage.

There is nothing wrong in caring only about damage, but still, you are only caring about damage. It’s ok, it’s the gw2 trademark, but it’s also a quite disappointing experience.

It’s exactly the same with the trinity. Tanks and healers only serve to keep people alive… in order to increase overall party DPS, as dead DPS is 0 DPS.

Defensive support is useful, just not so much in disorganised groups. Aegising a heavy hit saves people from having to dodge, but, unless they know about it ahead of time, they’ll likely dodge anyway, ruining the point of it.

Sword/pistol is seen as the primary thief trash clearer because of its spammable blind. Stability paired with regeration means that a coordinated team will know they they don’t have to dodge the minor attacks, and they can just tank through them, and thus spend more time doing damage.

Eponet.4829:

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Anybody that has ever looked at one of the meta builds should know right away that it isn’t about raw damage, it is about bringing the most to the party while still doing a lot of damage.

There is nothing wrong in caring only about damage, but still, you are only caring about damage. It’s ok, it’s the gw2 trademark, but it’s also a quite disappointing experience.

It’s exactly the same with the trinity. Tanks and healers only serve to keep people alive… in order to increase overall DPS.

Definitely not the same, no. But let’s not delve into what other games have, since we aren’t talking about other games.

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Anybody that has ever looked at one of the meta builds should know right away that it isn’t about raw damage, it is about bringing the most to the party while still doing a lot of damage.

There is nothing wrong in caring only about damage, but still, you are only caring about damage. It’s ok, it’s the gw2 trademark, but it’s also a quite disappointing experience.

I’ve already pointed out that it isn’t about raw damage. To deny reality and live in your own world where you’re right is childish and wrong.

A grand example is Phalanx Strength warriors. Prior to June 23rd they did way less damage than pure DPS warriors. But they were still preferred because they were better for the party as a whole. Instead of more selfish direct damage utilities they’d bring banners, they’d bring might, they’d bring vulnerability.

It isn’t about raw damage it is about the party.

It’s about party damage. You aren’t talking about weakness, blinds, stuns, or controls.
They are not needed.
You aren’t talking about regeneration, aegis, or stability.
They are not needed (except for skips, maybe).

You are talking about:
Party Damage.
PS= party damage.
DPS =personal damage.

currently it’s the least common multiplier of the game.

And I’m ok with them not being needed, I’m less ok with them not having a place in PvE because things dies before they are useful. i.e. before stamina is drained, healing skills are on cd, and personal blocks have been used.

Do you even understand what you suggest?

Increasing the length and/or lethality of combat in GW2 to the point that all the support skills are required (and no, relfects are not taken along only for damage, least not in high level fractals. stop arguing from noob dungeons that are 3 year old content) and your personal skills are required to survive an encounter, would up the demand for very select classes by a LOT.

Certain classes would not get taken along at all any more.

Your right, none of the defensive skills are needed. Now please go run a fractal 50 without a guardian providing aegis, without an elementalist/thief providing aoe blind, without reflects from mesmer or guardians.

Compare that to a group bringing all those things. Then come and tell me none of those are very useful. True, they aren’t required in dungeons or most open world content, because that content is way outdated. They aren’t required as in the fractal 50 run that takes 45 minutes with them, turns into 1.5-2 hours without them.

Cyninja.2954:

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Anybody that has ever looked at one of the meta builds should know right away that it isn’t about raw damage, it is about bringing the most to the party while still doing a lot of damage.

There is nothing wrong in caring only about damage, but still, you are only caring about damage. It’s ok, it’s the gw2 trademark, but it’s also a quite disappointing experience.

I’ve already pointed out that it isn’t about raw damage. To deny reality and live in your own world where you’re right is childish and wrong.

A grand example is Phalanx Strength warriors. Prior to June 23rd they did way less damage than pure DPS warriors. But they were still preferred because they were better for the party as a whole. Instead of more selfish direct damage utilities they’d bring banners, they’d bring might, they’d bring vulnerability.

It isn’t about raw damage it is about the party.

It’s about party damage. You aren’t talking about weakness, blinds, stuns, or controls.
They are not needed.
You aren’t talking about regeneration, aegis, or stability.
They are not needed (except for skips, maybe).

You are talking about:
Party Damage.
PS= party damage.
DPS =personal damage.

currently it’s the least common multiplier of the game.

And I’m ok with them not being needed, I’m less ok with them not having a place in PvE because things dies before they are useful. i.e. before stamina is drained, healing skills are on cd, and personal blocks have been used.

Do you even understand what you suggest?

Increasing the length and/or lethality of combat in GW2 to the point that all the support skills are required (and no, relfects are not taken along only for damage, least not in high level fractals. stop arguing from noob dungeons that are 3 year old content) and your personal skills are required to survive an encounter, would up the demand for very select classes by a LOT.

Certain classes would not get taken a long at all any more.

Your right, none of the defensive skills are needed. Now please go run a fractal 50 without a guardian providing aegis, without an elementalist/thief providing aoe blind, without reflects from mesmer or guardians.

Compare that to a group bringing all those things. Then come and tell me none of those are very useful. True, they aren’t required in dungeons or most open world content, because that content is way outdated. They aren’t required as in the run that takes 45 minutes with them, turns into 1.5-2 hours without them.

high level fractals only prolong the inevitable because most people are new to them, but since the core mechanics are the same as in dungeons, even there people will reach the point where they can just use some utility skills and dive in full zerker, simply because it’s the enemy AI that doesn’t require that kind of approach.

Increasing lethality is not the way go. Increasing complexity is the way to go.

Arkblue.6129:

It’s about party damage. You aren’t talking about weakness, blinds, stuns, or controls.
They are not needed.
You aren’t talking about regeneration, aegis, or stability.

Things that bring

Blinds: Eles, Necros, Thieves, Guardians, I’m sure there are others I am missing.

Stuns: Thieves and Eles, but not really usefull in most cases aside from knocking off defiance stacks.

Weakness: not really useful but in cases where it is deemed important I always swap my food to skale venom.

Controls: What are you referring to specifically? A lot of classes have knockbacks, pulls, immobilizes, freezes, etc. I’d say that stun belongs under here to begin with. It is all forms of CC, hard and soft CC to be precise. Hard CC being anything that causes defiance and a soft CC being stuff like chill and immobilize. I’d also say that a huge part of current meta (until break bar) is controlling your hard CC to avoid taking off too many stacks and screwing up the freeze.

Regeneration: Guardians, Eles, probably other stuff. Between Guardians passive regen and Eles throwing up random water fields in emergencies when they are in water for Ice Bow there is usually plenty to go around.

Aegis: Obviously very few classes have this in general, but as I main a Guardian I can 100% say with certainty that I use aegis often enough.

Stability: This is very important in a lot of encounters, otherwise our lovely stack can be knocked all around.

PS is sacrificing damage for party buffs. Whether or not those buffs increase the party damage overall is irrelevant to this conversation. Guardians sacrifice things like bane signet for stability or condi removal all the time. I personally change my build out 3 or 4 times in most dungeons. Going from condi removal to melee to ranged builds depending on the fight. Most META builds have alternatives like that for certain areas where certain things are needed. There is a reason that Guardian META in fractals often uses a hammer, the ring and the near constant protection/regen is amazing for high level fractals.

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Arkblue.6129:

Harper.4173:

It’s the players – not necessarily the encounter that push this.

No, it’s the encounter.
The game was never built around a required healer/tank, but the devs intended to built it around a required soft trinity were at least a player was supposed to stand there dodging/mitigating/blocking/kiting the damage. Stacking was never meant to be META. In that scenario regenerations and heals would have proven more useful because it would have been harder to avoid all damage, but still they wouldn’t be needed.
TL;DR= the encounters are designed around not needing dedicated tanks, healers, or anything but dps weapons.

I feel like you’ve never done a dungeon or something. There is a soft trinity. Every single META build accounts for various forms of control and support. Reflects, blinds, vulnerability, weakness, blocks, dodges, buffs, etc. Every single build accounts for this.

Stacking is a thing that is used in literally every single game since the beginning of time. Without stacking we’d all look like we were chickens with our heads cut off running in circles.

Well, reflects are usually brought because they increase dps. Aegis and dodges are used, but I rarely see Warriors bringing hammers or maces to apply weakness. Usually the utility spells offer enough utility to clear content easily. And at that point, why bringing a utility weapon when you can go full DPS, clear faster and avoid even more damage?

Stacking has been around since the beginning of time because that’s how gw works in general, both for weapon cleaves and party buffs, and I can’t say that’s a good thing.
http://gruulchant.ytmnd.com/

Weakness is also pretty /meh.

In protection’s case it’s a flat 33% drop
With Weakness it’s a chance to drop the damage, so it’s a roll of the dice on whether you benefit at all.

So yeah, if you’re getting hit a bunch you’ll notice a pretty nice damage reduction from Weakness, if you’re not, well you might get punched in the face just as hard or you might not.

Guardian Hammer in Fractals is a good example of the main issue we have in this game. That it’s all just old. Hammer used to be meta, but isn’t anymore because people have learned to play at a level that they simply don’t need the protection anymore really. So the Meta is the same as dungeons at this point, though that said, just like most defensive options, it still has power and benefits plus really not a huge on paper damage loss, though the practicality of it for some situations leaves it a bit wanting due to it’s slow ramp up.

Arkblue.6129:

Cyninja.2954:

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Anybody that has ever looked at one of the meta builds should know right away that it isn’t about raw damage, it is about bringing the most to the party while still doing a lot of damage.

There is nothing wrong in caring only about damage, but still, you are only caring about damage. It’s ok, it’s the gw2 trademark, but it’s also a quite disappointing experience.

I’ve already pointed out that it isn’t about raw damage. To deny reality and live in your own world where you’re right is childish and wrong.

A grand example is Phalanx Strength warriors. Prior to June 23rd they did way less damage than pure DPS warriors. But they were still preferred because they were better for the party as a whole. Instead of more selfish direct damage utilities they’d bring banners, they’d bring might, they’d bring vulnerability.

It isn’t about raw damage it is about the party.

It’s about party damage. You aren’t talking about weakness, blinds, stuns, or controls.
They are not needed.
You aren’t talking about regeneration, aegis, or stability.
They are not needed (except for skips, maybe).

You are talking about:
Party Damage.
PS= party damage.
DPS =personal damage.

currently it’s the least common multiplier of the game.

And I’m ok with them not being needed, I’m less ok with them not having a place in PvE because things dies before they are useful. i.e. before stamina is drained, healing skills are on cd, and personal blocks have been used.

Do you even understand what you suggest?

Increasing the length and/or lethality of combat in GW2 to the point that all the support skills are required (and no, relfects are not taken along only for damage, least not in high level fractals. stop arguing from noob dungeons that are 3 year old content) and your personal skills are required to survive an encounter, would up the demand for very select classes by a LOT.

Certain classes would not get taken a long at all any more.

Your right, none of the defensive skills are needed. Now please go run a fractal 50 without a guardian providing aegis, without an elementalist/thief providing aoe blind, without reflects from mesmer or guardians.

Compare that to a group bringing all those things. Then come and tell me none of those are very useful. True, they aren’t required in dungeons or most open world content, because that content is way outdated. They aren’t required as in the run that takes 45 minutes with them, turns into 1.5-2 hours without them.

high level fractals only prolong the inevitable because most people are new to them, but since the core mechanics are the same as in dungeons, even there people will reach the point where they can just use some utility skills and dive in full zerker, simply because it’s the enemy AI that doesn’t require that kind of approach.

Increasing lethality is not the way go. Increasing complexity is the way to go.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists

- added in November 16th, 2012
- Fractured update in November 26th 2013

Fractals have been almost as long in the game as dungeons. They are certainly not new content.

Yes, fractals even at 50 are run in full zerker gear (at least I do on my guardian/mesmer). Especially due to that all the defensive skills are even more important. A solid soft trinity and classes that provide proper utility and group skills are a huge boon to every ones nerves and sanity.

I agree on the complexity part. It’s almost like how most enemys and bosses in fractals get new skills every 10 levels (that’s new skills, not only agony)?

I really hope anet makes some of the new content on par with fractal 50 difficulty (or even harder since this is on farm for people) but my guess is the resonance in the majority of players would be to ignore those aspects of pve or start complaining over the high difficulty.

Cyninja.2954:

Arkblue.6129:

Cyninja.2954:

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Arkblue.6129:

Dinks.2478:

Anybody that has ever looked at one of the meta builds should know right away that it isn’t about raw damage, it is about bringing the most to the party while still doing a lot of damage.

There is nothing wrong in caring only about damage, but still, you are only caring about damage. It’s ok, it’s the gw2 trademark, but it’s also a quite disappointing experience.

I’ve already pointed out that it isn’t about raw damage. To deny reality and live in your own world where you’re right is childish and wrong.

A grand example is Phalanx Strength warriors. Prior to June 23rd they did way less damage than pure DPS warriors. But they were still preferred because they were better for the party as a whole. Instead of more selfish direct damage utilities they’d bring banners, they’d bring might, they’d bring vulnerability.

It isn’t about raw damage it is about the party.

It’s about party damage. You aren’t talking about weakness, blinds, stuns, or controls.
They are not needed.
You aren’t talking about regeneration, aegis, or stability.
They are not needed (except for skips, maybe).

You are talking about:
Party Damage.
PS= party damage.
DPS =personal damage.

currently it’s the least common multiplier of the game.

And I’m ok with them not being needed, I’m less ok with them not having a place in PvE because things dies before they are useful. i.e. before stamina is drained, healing skills are on cd, and personal blocks have been used.

Do you even understand what you suggest?

Increasing the length and/or lethality of combat in GW2 to the point that all the support skills are required (and no, relfects are not taken along only for damage, least not in high level fractals. stop arguing from noob dungeons that are 3 year old content) and your personal skills are required to survive an encounter, would up the demand for very select classes by a LOT.

Certain classes would not get taken a long at all any more.

Your right, none of the defensive skills are needed. Now please go run a fractal 50 without a guardian providing aegis, without an elementalist/thief providing aoe blind, without reflects from mesmer or guardians.

Compare that to a group bringing all those things. Then come and tell me none of those are very useful. True, they aren’t required in dungeons or most open world content, because that content is way outdated. They aren’t required as in the run that takes 45 minutes with them, turns into 1.5-2 hours without them.

high level fractals only prolong the inevitable because most people are new to them, but since the core mechanics are the same as in dungeons, even there people will reach the point where they can just use some utility skills and dive in full zerker, simply because it’s the enemy AI that doesn’t require that kind of approach.

Increasing lethality is not the way go. Increasing complexity is the way to go.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists

- added in November 16th, 2012
- Fractured update in November 26th 2013

Fractals have been almost as long in the game as dungeons. They are certainly not new content.

Yes, fractals even at 50 are run in full zerker gear (at least I do on my guardian/mesmer). Especially due to that all the defensive skills are even more important. A solid soft trinity and classes that provide proper utility and group skills are a huge boon to every ones nerves and sanity.

I agree on the complexity part. It’s almost like how most enemys and bosses in fractals get new skills every 10 levels (that’s new skills, not only agony)?

I really hope anet makes some of the new content on par with fractal 50 difficulty (or even harder since this is on farm for people) but my guess is the resonance in the majority of players would be to ignore those aspects of pve or start complaining over the high difficulty.

No, they need to stop trying to cater to both types of players with the same content. You can’t have content that appeals to players that like high difficulty content and players that like casual content at the same time. They need to introduce hard mode. So that less organized or just less hardcore players can enjoy the casual modes and then hardcore or just more organized groups can do the hard modes and get better rewards for their effort.