Not full Holy Trinity, but vary proffs?

Not full Holy Trinity, but vary proffs?

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

2/2

I think this game is too easy and need more challenge. I would love for hardcore difficult dungeon. I still don’t agree that there is no roles. But I understand that we don’t have the same definition of role for GW2.

Well they could do that in two ways. Putting more focus on the specific roles and so requiring better teamwork where everybody uses his special ability and together you get the task done. (also a result of better AI or / and more versatile game-play)

Or they could higher the Damage and HP of the encounter. I think the last one would be kinda boring. However the first one would mean you will need / have more specific roles. What you seem not to want. Or you do but you just don’t know that thats what you want because you are so focused on "everybody should be able to take almost everybody’s place”.

Yup. The main focus is always DPS and active defense. And that’s what make that game so awesome for me. If you want more bigger, important, different and obligatory roles, there is plenty of those in other games.

Didn’t you start of saying that it was very much about roles? Anyway it’s nice to see that we finally agree. It’s mainly about DPS.

Exactly the opposite of what was said in Robechef’s post that you referred to as a ‘excellent answer’ in your first comment here. What he said is that only noobs did think it was all about DPS but in fact it was much more about skills (referring to the roles). They just did not get it and so only did see the DPS (as if those people where only observers not players).

Anyway, you may like it thats it’s so much focused on DPS. But thats exactly what so many people dislike. They want more interesting battles that do work more on the roles then the DPS and so require more tactics and more tactics then mainly brainless DPS.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Devata

Wait, before there where here people arguing that the whole ‘no roles’ argument was just something bad players came up with because they did not know how to play different roles so all went DPS (and rushed true all content.. bud bad players none the less). Now you basically say DPS is only for good players.

The roles exist within the DPS role.

There is a survival→DPS tradeoff that is a personal choice of the player.

THen there is the utility and role that is defined by the traits/weapons/skills chosen for the given profession.

Good players choose the more DPS rather than more survival whenever they are allowed (which is most cases as the true defense of the game is active defense, not passive survivability).

That doesn’t in any way change the fact that they also spec themselves to fill a certain role. Do you need might? ok, go with a Scepter build for Ele. Need projectile defense, then use a focus for air4 (i think it is, kinda newbish at ele myself). Encountering a lot of trash mobs? Lightning Hammer auto blinds which is flipping amazing. Have adds that have devistating multi hit attacks that can’t be dodged? shocking aura on dagger air3.

You bring the right tool for the job, but you also try to make sure that you’re set up for as much damage as you can, while still not falling over dead all the time.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Your example with the Mesmer portal. That’s where I got that from. The only other professions with self-teleports are, as far as I know, Thief, Guardian, Elementalist and Necro (providing you’ve either put the worm out of the area or got enough time to). Unless you make the actual attack unavoidable / countered with Stability or escapable with Leaps, if you’re a Warrior, Engineer or Ranger in that situation, bad luck.

Or the thief makes everybody invisible? And remember the Take Root? That also makes you invulnerable. Ranger can have pets that drop weapons including Elixir of Heroes what also makes you invulnerable. Again there are possible ways it’s just up to you imagination (or lack of that). But indeed not everybody might have something for it. That’s the whole point of focusing more on roles. You are depending on each other when you get in the situation where you need the skills from another player / role. That what makes team-play important.

So it’s not a problem where you require specific classes otherwise you can’t do the content? Sorry, but I’ll have to disagree on that one. If you can be smart and build your character to be effective in a role, you should be able to. You shouldn’t be restricted by your class. The content should bring the player, not the class.

The definition of ‘role’ is your purpose in the group. If you need to Immobilise an enemy at certain points, that shouldn’t be restricted to 2 or 3 classes.

“If you can be smart and build your character to be effective in a role” Effective in a role thats never really needed because everybody can take your plays always. I can’t even define that as a role anymore. No it’s no problem if you can’t do content if you are not able to provide in a few specific roles required for that content. Some roles might be available for 2 or even 3 classes of course.

And yes a role is also depending on the content. But it’s also based on your skills. See your own example. Immobilize an enemy. Then you need the ability to immobilize or a role based around that. But you also need an enemy that required to be immobilized. You need both.

I disagree. Builds have a lot to do with what your character can bring to the fight, moreso than class. Class is more of how they can handle specific things. For example, Incoming Conditions in respect to helping team-mates, most of the ways are either removing, drawing or converting conditions:

I was talking about the armor not the full build. Mistake. But even then a build should only help to help you specialize in one of the roles as a class can likely have multiple roles or to tweak it a little to your liking. It should not make your role completely (so that without a build everybody is the same)

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Ok, so fire works better against water. What bosses? And wouldn’t that just leave Ele working better in different attuenments? Who else uses water? How would you actually apply this idea to GW2?

Thieves are huge on stealth, but you don’t have to build your spec into it IF your team is coordinated. if you’re highly coordinated they can even do as little as using pistol5 and having the team blast it quickly and move on. And what’s the point of speed when you’re leaving your group behind? How would you apply your ideas to GW2? In what way would they be used?

You’re right though, it doesn’t make sense why we’re discussing the DPS aspect because it’s a constant throughout every MMO i’ve played. You get enough defense, and once that is covered you go all offense. It’s a very simple concept.

Again it was just an example and I also said you had to work on the content and on the classes. So if you would make a change like that (water is stronger against fire) then it also makes sense you implement roles more based on those elements. In the current state there would indeed not be much to go with as only elementelist has water as far as I know and it has also fire so it would not even be a specific role.

“Thieves are huge on stealth, but you don’t have to build your spec into it IF your team is coordinated. " So again you agree that the’role’ is not so very important. All I say is to make roles more important and DPS less important. I did also give concrete examples in this thread. (see what I talked about with TheDaiBish)

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Devata

Wait, before there where here people arguing that the whole ‘no roles’ argument was just something bad players came up with because they did not know how to play different roles so all went DPS (and rushed true all content.. bud bad players none the less). Now you basically say DPS is only for good players.

The roles exist within the DPS role.

There is a survival->DPS tradeoff that is a personal choice of the player.

THen there is the utility and role that is defined by the traits/weapons/skills chosen for the given profession.

Good players choose the more DPS rather than more survival whenever they are allowed (which is most cases as the true defense of the game is active defense, not passive survivability).

That doesn’t in any way change the fact that they also spec themselves to fill a certain role. Do you need might? ok, go with a Scepter build for Ele. Need projectile defense, then use a focus for air4 (i think it is, kinda newbish at ele myself). Encountering a lot of trash mobs? Lightning Hammer auto blinds which is flipping amazing. Have adds that have devistating multi hit attacks that can’t be dodged? shocking aura on dagger air3.

You bring the right tool for the job, but you also try to make sure that you’re set up for as much damage as you can, while still not falling over dead all the time.

However DPS seem to always be the biggest factor and that is what so many people mean when they say combat is dull and it’s all about dps dps dps.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Devata

Wait, before there where here people arguing that the whole ‘no roles’ argument was just something bad players came up with because they did not know how to play different roles so all went DPS (and rushed true all content.. bud bad players none the less). Now you basically say DPS is only for good players.

The roles exist within the DPS role.

There is a survival->DPS tradeoff that is a personal choice of the player.

THen there is the utility and role that is defined by the traits/weapons/skills chosen for the given profession.

Good players choose the more DPS rather than more survival whenever they are allowed (which is most cases as the true defense of the game is active defense, not passive survivability).

That doesn’t in any way change the fact that they also spec themselves to fill a certain role. Do you need might? ok, go with a Scepter build for Ele. Need projectile defense, then use a focus for air4 (i think it is, kinda newbish at ele myself). Encountering a lot of trash mobs? Lightning Hammer auto blinds which is flipping amazing. Have adds that have devistating multi hit attacks that can’t be dodged? shocking aura on dagger air3.

You bring the right tool for the job, but you also try to make sure that you’re set up for as much damage as you can, while still not falling over dead all the time.

However DPS seem to always be the biggest factor and that is what so many people mean when they say combat is dull and it’s all about dps dps dps.

And those people are oversimplifying it and focusing on one point rather than the fact that DPS is only one aspect of the game. yes you always want as much damage as you can get. But you have to bring or should bring other utilities along as they will help as well. A well used stealth can speed up a dungeon just as fast as changing from PVT to zerk gear. A properly used reflect wall on say Lupi can account for rediculous damage, speeding that up quite a bit. Good use of defensive abilities can prevent wipes which means faster and smoother runs as well.

There is a lot more than just “dps dps dps”, if you choose to ignore those things then you won’t have as smooth or as quick of runs as those who do appreciate those tools.

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Posted by: TheDaiBish.9735

TheDaiBish.9735

Or the thief makes everybody invisible? And remember the Take Root? That also makes you invulnerable. Ranger can have pets that drop weapons including Elixir of Heroes what also makes you invulnerable. Again there are possible ways it’s just up to you imagination (or lack of that). But indeed not everybody might have something for it. That’s the whole point of focusing more on roles. You are depending on each other when you get in the situation where you need the skills from another player / role. That what makes team-play important.

Stealth doesn’t prevent damage, and that Ranger pet skill is a 1 in 3 chance of getting Elixer of Heroes, so you can’t rely on it.

You can have dependency on people doing their role without having flat-out reliance. You simply make that role integral to completing that encounter, but not to the individual’s survival.

“If you can be smart and build your character to be effective in a role” Effective in a role thats never really needed because everybody can take your plays always. I can’t even define that as a role anymore. No it’s no problem if you can’t do content if you are not able to provide in a few specific roles required for that content. Some roles might be available for 2 or even 3 classes of course.

And yes a role is also depending on the content. But it’s also based on your skills. See your own example. Immobilize an enemy. Then you need the ability to immobilize or a role based around that. But you also need an enemy that required to be immobilized. You need both.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on the whole locking people out of content thing.

As for the ‘role never needed anymore since people steal your plays’, one, you’re wrong since the role is still needed to complete the encounter and two, you reduce the amount of people running a build for the same mechanic by having multiple mechanics in the fight

For example, imagine you have a three-boss fight. You’re fighting these bosses at the same time:

Boss A has a stacking buff that is permanently applied for every second they’re moving. That buff doubles in stacking rate if they have Swiftness, and is reduced to 2 seconds if they have Cripple. The buff is prevented with Immobilize.

Boss B has a stacking buff for every second they’re still. That buff doubles in rate if they become Immobilised, but only applies every 2 seconds if they’re moving. The buff is prevented when subject to CC that moves it.

Boss C has a stacking buff that stacks at a rate dependent on it’s distance from the other two bosses. This buff slows to a rate of 1 stack every 2 seconds if it’s more than, say, 900 units away from the others, and stops completely at 1,200 units. It stacks at a rate of 2 every second if it’s near one boss and 4 every second if it’s near both.

Here you have 4 roles inherent to that encounter:

  • Keeping Boss A still
  • Keeping Boss B moving
  • Keeping Boss C away from the others
  • Damage

Now, this fight can be approached by you in a number of ways:

  • Groups can choose to share the roles out so damage doesn’t lag behind. It’s a quicker way but requires co-ordination and timing.
  • Groups can choose to specialise, each building with one boss in mind. It’s a safer way but will take longer.

For you, option 2 would allow you to fulfill a role of, say, kiting Boss B around, with no-one taking that role from you.

I was talking about the armor not the full build. Mistake. But even then a build should only help to help you specialize in one of the roles as a class can likely have multiple roles or to tweak it a little to your liking. It should not make your role completely (so that without a build everybody is the same)

I’ll be disagreeing with you on this. I see absolutely no objective reason why ‘role’ should be limited by profession.

Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.

(edited by TheDaiBish.9735)

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Posted by: NumenorLord.6539

NumenorLord.6539

Guardians are bottom of the pack DPS-wise, but can tank and heal for England. Conditions give them a bit of extra damage, and their control and sustain are weak.

I think I’, playing a different game, Guardians have one of the highest sustained DPS of the game.

I don’t like to sound like an kitten but if you like trinity there are a lot of games out there that still have tank-dps-healer systems, you can go try them.

GW2 needs some class balance IMO but not regarding PVE.

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Posted by: William Bradley Knight.2609

William Bradley Knight.2609

The ‘trinity’ is Damage, Damage, Damage

FIFY.

Okay, not exactly, but this is close to true. I know the game is not balanced around PvE and it shouldn’t be, but to bring more “balance” to PvE it seems like better balancing of damage and survivability of each of the classes would help with the perceived problem.

For example, a full zerk ele currently does much more DPS than a full zerk warrior but is much less survivable. But if said ele adjusts his traits and gear to be as survivable as the warrior, it then doesn’t (I think) do as much damage as the warrior. Also, the warrior simply cannot adjust its traits and gear in such a way that it can be less survivable and then do as much DPS as the ele. It’s probably impossible, but since PvE is basically about damage, it would be a nice goal to try and make it so that similar DPS/survivability ratios are possible across the professions. Then the differences between classes would mainly be due to support (i.e. who can provide group buffs and debuffs like might, vulnerability, etc.) And it should be attempted to balance even those factors. ANet may try to do this and has simply found it to be an impossible task. Or maybe it’s not a concern. I’m not sure.

An added bonus if the above were possible would be that it might be possible for highly skilled players to run teams of minimal survivability that can produce even higher DPS than the current best dungeon speed clear groups. It would add challenge to the game for some, which is a not infrequent request by some players. But it might also make the average PUG groups more open to variations in team composition, maybe causing them to think about what to look for in a group beyond the usual “need more heavies,” like what factors actually contribute to success…like skill. Or maybe not. PUGs gonna PUG.

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Posted by: emikochan.8504

emikochan.8504

The only thing that needs improving is mob AI, pvp is awesome and the pve mobs should lose defiance and gain a brain. Problem solved \o/

Welcome to my world – http://emikochan13.wordpress.com

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Posted by: Bezagron.7352

Bezagron.7352

So what is the point of having gear stat choices in PvE then. When I see talk about dungeons it’s all about offensive. You want damage, support that increase damage (Reflects, might, fury, quickness vulnerability). All the meta dungeon builds I see are all focus on damage or maxing your damage with a small lost that you greatly increase the groups damage output.

Now yes dungeons can be complete with any group but looking at the completion times it’s a joke (5-6min Meta to Oo 1-2hrs) and were talking about high end gameplay.

What I think people are complaining about when they talk about roles is in high end PvE gameplay were is the condition minded, the defensive minded or the control minded players. This player base is cut off from high PvE gameplay. They typically don’t use zerker gear (bar zerker condition but condition have their own problems in PvE). So you have:

  • Player like’s defensive play and maxing their defence. No high end PvE for you.
  • Player like’s damage over time play (conditions) but conditions take time and there’s no point to condition if you kill the Boss in less then 10sec. No high end PvE for you too.
  • Player like’s controlling their enemies. Defiance, Unstoppable says hi. No high end PvE for you as well.
  • Player like’s supporting their allies excluding all else. But your not pulling your own weight (leeching off / being carried). No high end PvE here too.

This is only mainly a problem in PvE as each of these play styles is available in sPvP & WvW. For me I believe this is the heart of what players are talking about with roles in PvE. The high end PvE meta is all offensive focused, yes you can bring support & control but as a side not a focus.

So all player base that likes to focus on conditions, support & control are excluded from high end PvE and that’s the problem.

Edit: missed support focus in dot points, now added.

(edited by Bezagron.7352)

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Posted by: Bezagron.7352

Bezagron.7352

Off topic a bit but with speed runs and skipping what is the point of the dungeon. You log in run through kill sub boss, run to next sub boss… reach final boss and kill them. Looking at it this way why have the dungeon at all if your only killing the bosses. Why not just have a permanent Queen’s Gauntlet were you have a scoreboard, select boss rotation an compete in speed kills. You could create content for this faster then a new dungeon or dungeon path. Dungeon for me were meant to be adventure you going it and it’s a battle throughout the whole dungeon. Not Ok we only killing bosses. In this way I always thought a dungeon vanquishing mode would work fantastic.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

So what is the point of having gear stat choices in PvE then. When I see talk about dungeons it’s all about offensive. You want damage, support that increase damage (Reflects, might, fury, quickness vulnerability). All the meta dungeon builds I see are all focus on damage or maxing your damage with a small lost that you greatly increase the groups damage output.

Now yes dungeons can be complete with any group but looking at the completion times it’s a joke (5-6min Meta to Oo 1-2hrs) and were talking about high end gameplay.

What I think people are complaining about when they talk about roles is in high end PvE gameplay were is the condition minded, the defensive minded or the control minded players. This player base is cut off from high PvE gameplay. They typically don’t use zerker gear (bar zerker condition but condition have their own problems in PvE). So you have:

  • Player like’s defensive play and maxing their defence. No high end PvE for you.
  • Player like’s damage over time play (conditions) but conditions take time and there’s no point to condition if you kill the Boss in less then 10sec. No high end PvE for you too.
  • Player like’s controlling their enemies. Defiance, Unstoppable says hi. No high end PvE for you as well.

This is only mainly a problem in PvE as each of these play styles is available in sPvP & WvW. For me I believe this is the heart of what players are talking about with roles in PvE. The high end PvE meta is all offensive focused, yes you can bring support & control but as a side not a focus.

So all player base that likes to focus on conditions, support & control are excluded from high end PvE and that’s the problem.

How can you claim to “like defensive play” and then load yourself up with a crap ton of passive survival so that you don’t have to use the active defense. And if you are using the active defense then you’re not getting touched and all that passive survival is all for nothing. I have played a tank role in every game I have played, when you set yourself up that you’re tanking things just fine that’s when you start playing with adding more damage if you want to be an above average tank. This whole idea of stacking passive defense has no place in GW2 because it’s a game based on active defense, it’s supposed to promote skill and correct actions rather than simply setting yourself up so you can’t die. There is no trinity, there is no tank, there is no healer, accept the game for what it is.

Condi, yup, it’s unfortunate. It’s been a downfall of that play style in many games, ramp up time when you’re killing quickly is just going to put you at a disadvantage. It’s typically a bit better as they work on longer boss fights, but in this game we have a cap, which just makes the whole thing worse as the only longer fights are things you have tons of people and every condition is capped.

Control… every MMO i’ve ever played has had defiance type things on boss mobs. This game is no different. More bosses with Adds meant to be CCed, that’d be awesome. But for now you get an initial shot on bosses if you screw that up you have to strip the defiance so you can get another shot. It could surely use developing but defiance is something you need, you don’t want people just stunlocking boss mobs right?

I do miss my CC classes that say EQ had, but at the same time they were so powerful in certain situations that you required them. So content was either you need them or you don’t need them, nothing really in between, I don’t think GW2 wants that kind of requirement for anything, it’s designed to be more open to alternative tactics and group compositions.

Support: Phalanx War, Guardian, Mesmer, Might stacking Ele, Stealthing thief, lots of support people cna set themselves up to do. Much of it is not about the entire build but just a select few elements (str runes for might stacking, using correct skills/traits for others) but support is absolutely something that we use.

(edited by Jerus.4350)

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Posted by: blakdoxa.7520

blakdoxa.7520

The trinity is even more DDD (D3 or 3D) with the nerf of reflects…

Hell even guardians barrier skills now put us in combat with the recent change….

Guardian hold up in the rear… Guys, wait for him to catch up…

Devona’s Rest

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Posted by: Bezagron.7352

Bezagron.7352

I did not claimed I liked defensive play but it is a style some players like. Arenanet’s claim was you can play your way but these type of players are excluded in high end PvE. They find play in both sPvP & WvW so why isn’t there any place for them in high end PvE.

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Posted by: Dual.8953

Dual.8953

So what is the point of having gear stat choices in PvE then. When I see talk about dungeons it’s all about offensive. You want damage, support that increase damage (Reflects, might, fury, quickness vulnerability). All the meta dungeon builds I see are all focus on damage or maxing your damage with a small lost that you greatly increase the groups damage output.

Now yes dungeons can be complete with any group but looking at the completion times it’s a joke (5-6min Meta to Oo 1-2hrs) and were talking about high end gameplay.

What I think people are complaining about when they talk about roles is in high end PvE gameplay were is the condition minded, the defensive minded or the control minded players. This player base is cut off from high PvE gameplay. They typically don’t use zerker gear (bar zerker condition but condition have their own problems in PvE). So you have:

  • Player like’s defensive play and maxing their defence. No high end PvE for you.
  • Player like’s damage over time play (conditions) but conditions take time and there’s no point to condition if you kill the Boss in less then 10sec. No high end PvE for you too.
  • Player like’s controlling their enemies. Defiance, Unstoppable says hi. No high end PvE for you as well.
  • Player like’s supporting their allies excluding all else. But your not pulling your own weight (leeching off / being carried). No high end PvE here too.

This is only mainly a problem in PvE as each of these play styles is available in sPvP & WvW. For me I believe this is the heart of what players are talking about with roles in PvE. The high end PvE meta is all offensive focused, yes you can bring support & control but as a side not a focus.

So all player base that likes to focus on conditions, support & control are excluded from high end PvE and that’s the problem.

Edit: missed support focus in dot points, now added.

That’s one of the things that bugs me. Aside from the occasional Headshot defiance burn, there’s no reason for me on my thief to do anything but straight DPS most of the time with a little blind on the side. Sure Pistol Whip has a stun, but that’s not why I use it. Thieves have a lot of unique control options in their utilities and traits, but the only thing people that us to bring is our stealths for skipping, what’s even worse is when I’m not assisting a skip, I’m usually expected to run nothing but stat boosting signet passives. No reason to bring chill, cripple, pull, immobilize and cripple to a dungeon, soft CC is pointless in a stack and the ever present monks cough I mean Guardians render most of my CCs and Support options redundant.
One could go as far to say unless you’re a Guardian, pretty much the only support you’ll do is buffing group DPS. (The only exception being a handful of AoE condi clears, blinds and reflects)

PS. Can we just rename Guardian, Monk already? They have a lot of the same skills and themes and the same party presence across all modes.

Registered Altaholic
Part-time Kittenposter

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

A warrior built entirely around shout healing can probably out heal most other classes. You can max out at around 3000 heal per shout which you can practically spam if you take the right traits. Add a war horn and a war banner and you become a support machine.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

I did not claimed I liked defensive play but it is a style some players like. Arenanet’s claim was you can play your way but these type of players are excluded in high end PvE. They find play in both sPvP & WvW so why isn’t there any place for them in high end PvE.

I mean the global “you” not trying to point at you specifically, sorry.

you are free to play your way, but people are also free to disagree with your way such that they don’t have to play with you. (gain meaning global you hehe, too hard to rephrase).

PVE is a different beast in that there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. To push the high skill active gameplay they are striving for they have made the success in PVE mainly based on the use of the active defense tools. Evades, Dodges, Projectile Walls, Blinds, Blocks, Aegis, positioning, CC, and stuff like that.

They could create gear checks, where we have unavoidable damage that will kill us in X time. They could make conditions that apply special effects (healing weaker/skill refresh) becoming more impactful. There are things they could do. But personally I’m not all that big of a fan of the gear check type idea, but that’s really the only way to make tankier builds optimal in any way is to force it upon people, but then you’re just creating a new baseline. More impactful CC/Conditions I think could happen without it being detrimental overall.

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Posted by: Bezagron.7352

Bezagron.7352

When I was talking about defensive play this includes active & passive. I agree active play is better but there should be a reason for passive stats (high toughness, high vitality, boon duration) otherwise why have them in the game at all.

The bigest problem in PvE is the 1 shot mechanic. Why increase these stat’s at all if your going to die just as fast as a zerker. With 1 shots & massive health pools zerker is really the only choice.

The only way I can see any passive defensive stats mattering in PvE is if somehow they also improve the available active defences. Meaning active defences & defensive support provided by a defensive player is more effective then a full zerker bring the same active defences & defensive support (I’m not saying I support this but is one option I see).

Again this is only a problem in high end PvE.

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Posted by: Dual.8953

Dual.8953

A warrior built entirely around shout healing can probably out heal most other classes. You can max out at around 3000 heal per shout which you can practically spam if you take the right traits. Add a war horn and a war banner and you become a support machine.

Then get kicked for not bringing banners, just like they’d kick a venom Thief for not being a dps/stealth thief.

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Posted by: Charak.9761

Charak.9761

Guardians are bottom of the pack DPS-wise.

What. Guardians have the highest dps under Staff eles.

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Posted by: Bezagron.7352

Bezagron.7352

I agree I don’t want gear checks, as they’re something I’m not fond of. But Again with PvE why have other gear stat choices if they’re pointless (again talking high end). Of course there is always going to be optimal gear choices for content & roles.

But the only gear choice, zerker being the be all an end all for every role at high end PvE that were I think people are finding problems. It also makes item/gear drop less reward in PvE if the item stats are not zerker. If it wasn’t for WvW these item would be worthless.
(Just vendor trash)

So again why have different gear stats in PvE:

  • Items not having zerker stats might as well be vendor trash (Less rewarding rewards).
  • Your a noob if using anything but zerker in PvE (Your viewed as a player with no skill).
  • Your PvE performance is sub par if not using zerker. (It takes so much longer to complete any PvE content, just look at dungeon times).

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

“All hail the great PuG meta! The PuG meta rules supreme!”

That’s what I hear from a lot of posts complaining about builds they’d rather play or gear they’d rather wear being rejected. Why do you give such power to random people on the internet? Why not do what you want?

To paraphrase: But what if your dungeon run philosophy isn’t based on a speed run, and your party composition motivation isn’t driven by having the best return on time? When looking at dungeon party composition in GW2, why not ask the question: What if I were to base my party composition on … wait for it … fun?

Could it be because this is not about fun? If it were about fun, you’d be creating your own parties and using the builds you want and the gear you prefer.

@ Bezagron: There are other stats on PvE gear because PvE gear is used in WvW also, and because not everyone who PVE’s wants to play with the speed runners.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

When I was talking about defensive play this includes active & passive. I agree active play is better but there should be a reason for passive stats (high toughness, high vitality, boon duration) otherwise why have them in the game at all.

The bigest problem in PvE is the 1 shot mechanic. Why increase these stat’s at all if your going to die just as fast as a zerker. With 1 shots & massive health pools zerker is really the only choice.

The only way I can see any passive defensive stats mattering in PvE is if somehow they also improve the available active defences. Meaning active defences & defensive support provided by a defensive player is more effective then a full zerker bring the same active defences & defensive support (I’m not saying I support this but is one option I see).

Again this is only a problem in high end PvE.

There is a purpose, it’s for those who are incapable, or unwilling to be perfect on their active defense. it’s options that give more leeway. If they built that into the game, then that means those players have less leeway as even the best need some of it.

I do agree on one shots though, if you go PVT you shouldn’t be completely taken out by any one attack. it kinda defeats the purpose as you say.

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Posted by: Bezagron.7352

Bezagron.7352

True IndigoSundown you can play for fun, it’s mainly how I enjoy to play. But unless you have a close group of friends or a like minded guild when talking about high end PvE your talking about the PuG meta and joining random players. You must remember this is the game play new player’s are going to experience before finding like minded players that don’t mind playing for fun and taking so much longer to complete content. Dungeon speed run are the best example as time differences are a joke.

Also I mentioned that item stats other then zerker being worthless but only when looking at PvE. There are a lot of PvE players that don’t WvW making these item stats useless for them (Again rewards feel less rewarding).

At the moment you can at least make gold off then but this is only because WvWers will buy then. But if you take WvW away what happens to the values of these items then.

I was also talking about player styles, which is typically associated with roles that I believe many feel are missing and these are:

  • Defensive minded
  • Condition (Damage over time) minded
  • Control minded and,
  • Support minded

These players that like to first focus on these styles of play are exclude from high end PvE when not playing with like minded players. Also if you log on but your friends/guild are not logged in unless you play with PuGs you are excluded.

To play high end PvE you need to focus on damage first and then you can bring some support & contol but don’t think about condition focus characters as the boss/champion should be dead before they will have the same effect physical damage has. Not to mention more then one condition player is a no go.

(edited by Bezagron.7352)

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Posted by: Bezagron.7352

Bezagron.7352

But Jerus again using dungeon as an example should the time difference be so great and yes there should be a tellable difference. We’re also talking about high end PvE so players skill should not be in question.

So high end PvE amplifies the problem with item stats other then zerker. This is also half the problem with high end PvE rewards. As again an item drop not having zerker stats is automatically less rewarding, it saving grace is you can sell to WvWers for worth while gold, as with out them no one would be buying them.

Every player has different mind set and play styles unfortunately at high end PvE unless you’re offensive focus you’re exclude to only play at mid to low end PvE. Were these players have no problem performing in high end sPvP & high end WvW. So why isn’t there a place for them in high end PvE.

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Posted by: Dual.8953

Dual.8953

But Jerus again using dungeon as an example should the time difference be so great and yes there should be a tellable difference. We’re also talking about high end PvE so players skill should not be in question.

So high end PvE amplifies the problem with item stats other then zerker. This is also half the problem with high end PvE rewards. As again an item drop not having zerker stats is automatically less rewarding, it saving grace is you can sell to WvWers for worth while gold, as with out them no one would be buying them.

Every player has different mind set and play styles unfortunately at high end PvE unless you’re offensive focus you’re exclude to only play at mid to low end PvE. Were these players have no problem performing in high end sPvP & high end WvW. So why isn’t there a place for them in high end PvE.

That last point really resonates with me. In the PvP modes there’s room for different focuses. In PvE, there one top strategy without rival. It can’t change like the PvP metas because the enemies can’t change themselves and they’re all so similar to one another.
Since the enemies are static and similar, there is an universal, optimal playstyle, which is to be offensively focused. Everything else makes you second rate regardless of your personal skill level.

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Posted by: Bezagron.7352

Bezagron.7352

Dual I have to agree, this is the largest problem I have with PvE as if you try sPvP and/or WvW suddenly these play styles are respected, wanted and can be used at the highest level of play. It’s also part of the shock PvE player feel the first time they try sPvP or WvW and causes some of the problems between the different player bases.

A high end PvE player top of there skill and respected comes across into WvW and/or sPvP and finds them self being destroyed by the other players being call a noob or PvE hero. On the same note a top tier sPvP or WvW player that is not offensively focused can receive the same shock and treatment. It leave a bad taste and much to be desired for the player experience.

Dual you also bring up a great point about the different meta’s as PvE only has an offensive focus it makes it so much harder to balance all three game modes. As improvements high end PvEer want will destroy balance for sPvP and/or WvW and sPvPers & WvWers wanted balances are non existence or destroy PvE balance.

The roles people want do exist in GW2 you only have to look at sPvP & WvW to find then. The problem is with PvE combat & encounters, as these roles are not needed and/or wanted at high end PvE play at the moment.

I will say at the start of GW2 before anyone started to master PvE I found most encounters interesting. But once the PvE zerker was born I found that it trivialise so much of the content that I then found it boring (It was just so much easier & faster, monsters & mob almost never got to use their skill and become a real threat). It also started to make PvE reward feel little to worthless for me until I started playing the other game modes.

(edited by Bezagron.7352)

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Posted by: Ropechef.6192

Ropechef.6192

Well put Bezagron,

An anology that I like to use when describing this. regardless of what anyone does outside of gaming or whatever hobby you choose to partake in We can all at least have a basic understanding of Cars and racing right???

So there you are sitting at the starting line of the Daytona 500. Pretty straight forward track right? Sure there is plenty of considerations one takes into account as you are about to run around it 500 times hence the challenge. So you come prepared. You slot some good solid construction on your car. you got some spare tires in the trunk and a tank of gas in the back. and you have 4 of your buddies along with you each with their own respective car. One guy even went a little more beefy and has an extra gas tank for anyone else if they need it. And so the starting gun goes off. and away you go. Sure enough after some minor setbacks here and there. One of your guys lost a tire. or someone ran out of gas. Good thing you had that back up. Yay! you made it. good on you. here is your prize and your sense of acomplishment.

Alright, lets do it again…. you know, i didnt use that tank of gas last time. i wonder if i could do without this time. You know we only lost 1 tire last time. do we need to bring 4 extras? lets trim it down to 2… just in case.

Alright lets do it again…. you know, we are getting pretty good at this. no one ran out of gas the last few runs. and we havent blown a tire in ages….

So hey gang. Me and the other guy tried it by ourselves last night. did’nt do to bad. we had some extra tires and gas if we needed it. but we only ended up using one of them.

I wonder if we can make our cars faster???

Ohh hey guys… i heard about this race Called the Baja, we should go check it out. We might need to get new cars though I am not sure our street races are gonna work so well in the offroad.

Ohh hey guys There is this other circuit over in Europe. supposed to be really fast. lots of fun. we might need new cars though… we can probably go faster then them but we cant turn worth anything. and they have lots and lots of turns.


something to think about. we are talking about a “race” that has been going for 2 years now. And yes it was certainly very hard in the beginning. But we got better. and we learned and we know how it all works now. We don’t need to change the existing tracks. there are still a large number of people that struggle with them even as it is. We need MORE tracks. New places to learn and test our mettle.

There is Balance in PvE. EVERY playstyle is viable. But If you show up with your trophy Truck, and line up with a bunch of stock cars. and then yell at the stock cars for “breaking the Race, and Ruining the track”……

The quote I posted before was not written by me, but someone else. Of which myself at least very much respects. he also wrote something else. that i think is appliciable now vs before. or at least an excerpt.


-

“The content is too easy”: No, the content is too old. I assure you, the first time you did Arah path 1 in September of 2012 was not as fast as it is done now, even if you are an elite dungeon runner now. Arah is very, very hard. Drop a new player into Arah with no experienced teammates and no video guides and suboptimal builds. He will fail very hard. In fact, drop the same player into any of the dungeons and they will likely struggle mightily. The content isn’’t too easy, it’s just too old. Even the more challenging raids in other games go on farm after two years of existence. The type of raid that took progression guilds two weeks to beat the first time around are facerolled by pugs after two years once the builds and strats are known. This is how MMO goes. If you want to decrease the berserker population, add brand new dungeons that don’t have established guides and community tactics yet and watch the casual berserker users put on defensive gear, or avoid the content altogether.


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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Very well put Ropechef.

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Posted by: Dual.8953

Dual.8953

I’d take it a step farther. They should use the current dungeons as examples and try to design future dungeons with the aim of providing completely unique challenges to those provided in earlier entries. An aim to make the optimal playstyle for that dungeon, unique to it. Maybe slip in things that reward players for using a skill or weapon that is usually unfavored. Like normally you have to go this way, but if you have the someone with a long range CC, you can go this way. Ideally they’d try to make a fair spread these niche tricks.
Bottomline, just design new dungeons so their optimal style will be something unique to those dungeons, so there will be room for other playstyles to shine.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

@ Bezagron: I’d be happy to discuss those four play styles.

  • Defensive-minded: Outside of a trinity game, where do you see defensive gear coming into play? It gets used in GW2 PvP because game-play objectives require players to hold points solo. It gets used in WvW if a player wants more survivability. To give defensive gear optimal status in PvE, you’d have to provide objectives for someone to hold in group play while the rest deal with something else — or similar mechanics. However, if all encounters were like that, that would just mean that the meta now required one bunker. If it were only on some encounters, you’d get some players carrying two gear sets and switching. Alternatively, you could make survivability more of an issue, but then you’d just be creating anything from a full survival meta to a hybrid (e.g., 75% Glass/25% Survival) meta.
  • DoT Minded: No arguments from me. ANet’s treatment of condition damage in GW2 PvE borders on the ridiculous. They’ve as much as said, "You guys that want DoT play need to play PvP, or solo. Forget group play and forget group events. Worst case I’ve seen of designing a game feature without the behind-the-scenes architecture to make it work across all game modes. If there’s any system in GW2 that deserves a failing grade, conditions in group PvE is it.
  • Support: Honestly, I don’t think a dedicated buff-bot can be made to work in high end PvE in this game. Buff-bot as a main play style would require drastically lowering the effectiveness of support for other builds. This would break many builds used in PvE, WvW and PvP. Are dedicated buff-bots really used in small group play in any of the post-WoW MMO’s? I can’t think of one. I know that Rift has the Archon Soul. However, meta wisdom there said Archon was only valuable in raids where the buffs would affect enough players to make up for the Archon’s lower DPS. Playing one in a dungeon was not desired. I believe people are just going to have to accept that a full-time dedicated support role is just not going to happen in GW2. Support buffs are an integral part of what makes various professions and builds tick. Too much of the game would have to be redone to re-balance these builds and professions to produce a dedicated role that the game was never intended to have.
  • Control: If you’re playing high end PvE, I don’t see an issue with requiring a coordinated group to strip Defiant stacks. The game could use more encounters where control is desirable. However, making control required across the board is going to sink a lot of bring-what-you-want non meta groups. I don’t see how that would be good — for them. I also don’t see why control has to be a dedicated role used in every encounter.
  1. Every PvE combat encounter in every MMO requires players to defeat the mobs.
  2. Optimal DPS is required in high end PvE in every MMO’s meta. Every one. And it always will be. Players doing less than the best DPS are only brought along because the game requires tanks and healers, or because specific encounters require an ability only one build has (e.g., Instructor Razuvious in 25-player Wrath Naxxramas).
  3. Dedicated roles were not intended to be part of GW2.
  4. Players are expected to be much more self-sufficient in their ability to sustain themselves in GW2 than in older MMO’s.

Given 1-2 above, how is it going to be possible to force players in GW2 PvE meta groups to accept lower DPS without sacrificing either 3 or 4?

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Posted by: Dual.8953

Dual.8953

@ Bezagron: I’d be happy to discuss those four play styles.

  • Defensive-minded: Outside of a trinity game, where do you see defensive gear coming into play? It gets used in GW2 PvP because game-play objectives require players to hold points solo. It gets used in WvW if a player wants more survivability. To give defensive gear optimal status in PvE, you’d have to provide objectives for someone to hold in group play while the rest deal with something else — or similar mechanics. However, if all encounters were like that, that would just mean that the meta now required one bunker. If it were only on some encounters, you’d get some players carrying two gear sets and switching. Alternatively, you could make survivability more of an issue, but then you’d just be creating anything from a full survival meta to a hybrid (e.g., 75% Glass/25% Survival) meta.
  • DoT Minded: No arguments from me. ANet’s treatment of condition damage in GW2 PvE borders on the ridiculous. They’ve as much as said, "You guys that want DoT play need to play PvP, or solo. Forget group play and forget group events. Worst case I’ve seen of designing a game feature without the behind-the-scenes architecture to make it work across all game modes. If there’s any system in GW2 that deserves a failing grade, conditions in group PvE is it.
  • Support: Honestly, I don’t think a dedicated buff-bot can be made to work in high end PvE in this game. Buff-bot as a main play style would require drastically lowering the effectiveness of support for other builds. This would break many builds used in PvE, WvW and PvP. Are dedicated buff-bots really used in small group play in any of the post-WoW MMO’s? I can’t think of one. I know that Rift has the Archon Soul. However, meta wisdom there said Archon was only valuable in raids where the buffs would affect enough players to make up for the Archon’s lower DPS. Playing one in a dungeon was not desired. I believe people are just going to have to accept that a full-time dedicated support role is just not going to happen in GW2. Support buffs are an integral part of what makes various professions and builds tick. Too much of the game would have to be redone to re-balance these builds and professions to produce a dedicated role that the game was never intended to have.
  • Control: If you’re playing high end PvE, I don’t see an issue with requiring a coordinated group to strip Defiant stacks. The game could use more encounters where control is desirable. However, making control required across the board is going to sink a lot of bring-what-you-want non meta groups. I don’t see how that would be good — for them. I also don’t see why control has to be a dedicated role used in every encounter.
  1. Every PvE combat encounter in every MMO requires players to defeat the mobs.
  2. Optimal DPS is required in high end PvE in every MMO’s meta. Every one. And it always will be. Players doing less than the best DPS are only brought along because the game requires tanks and healers, or because specific encounters require an ability only one build has (e.g., Instructor Razuvious in 25-player Wrath Naxxramas).
  3. Dedicated roles were not intended to be part of GW2.
  4. Players are expected to be much more self-sufficient in their ability to sustain themselves in GW2 than in older MMO’s.

Given 1-2 above, how is it going to be possible to force players in GW2 PvE meta groups to accept lower DPS without sacrificing either 3 or 4?

You could add things like alternate routes on the same dungeon path with unique challenges rewarding different roles. It’d be the same A and B in the end. (Would take active tweaking to balance)
They should also add more boss AI types, and be mindful of thier arenas.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Devata is obsiously a troll and should get reported, but i bite it.

Why do you want to get toughness? What keeps out of doing it? Why do you want the same killing speed as a berserker geared character? Why you can’t leave this gear issue and realize your build is more reliant on weapon, trait and skill choices?
Why? Why? Why?

Lol naming me a troll based on nothing and then coming with a troll post. Where did I say I want toughness? Where did I say I want the same killing speed as berserker? Where, where where? I did not, that is however what seems to be the main requirement in the game, DPS and some toughness if possible.

I want more focus on roles.

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Posted by: Lian Olsam.9541

Lian Olsam.9541

I’d love to have some differences between classes and pve, dungeons purpose, i play thief guard war necro mesm ele and the only pve purpose is do the max dmg…
I d like to use my chars differently, more mechanism, some parts who groups need only to cc enemies for protect npc etc etc…
Problem is anet doesent read those kind of thread, and just make living story who alot of ppl doesent care, ppl wanna some dungeons with progress like fotm, and wanna have some unique chance for use his classes.. is not possible lf max dps in every contents…

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

True IndigoSundown you can play for fun

If it is not required to use tactics and team-play what is the fun of doing it. Lets be all tactical and trying to use different roles.. of course he will also just die if we DPS the hell out of him. There is no fun in teamplay (making use of different roles) if it’s useless. It’s fun of that teamplay is the reason you are being victorious.

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Posted by: Ropechef.6192

Ropechef.6192

I’d love to have some differences between classes and pve, dungeons purpose,
there is quite alot actually

i play thief guard war necro mesm ele and the only pve purpose is do the max dmg…
that is incorrect. You assume that is the only reason. it is in fact not

I d like to use my chars differently,
what is stopping you? *

more mechanism, some parts who groups need only to cc enemies for protect npc etc etc…
So you are asking for Content that requires a specific type a role. there by denying access to said content unless you are of that role. Which goes against the fundamental Concepts of this game.

Problem is anet doesent read those kind of thread,
They do actually. *

and just make living story who alot of ppl doesent care,
Alot of people LIKE the living story. *

ppl wanna some dungeons with progress like fotm,
Yes I agree. if anything there is a cry out from the mass for More stuff to do. this has been established. *

and wanna have some unique chance for use his classes..
Again, what is stopping you?

is not possible lf max dps in every contents…
And again this is an incorrect assumption

Bolding mine.

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

I personally think it’s a terrible idea since, despite your intentions, it still pigeon-holes players into playing certain professions for certain gameplay choices. Want to play a condition Warrior, or a burst Guardian? Sure, but you’re gimping yourself in terms of effectiveness.

Not only that, but then you have to design content that requires roles x, y and z. Players figure the best way to do it, and you’ll get 3 professions excluded – same as we have now. Unless they bring in dungeons that adapt the mechanics based on group composition, it improves nothing.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with the system we have now; you can have variations within each profession as to what they do. A Warrior with a Greatsword is different to a Warrior with a Hammer, for example – the former being about more damage and the latter being about more control.

Exactly what this man wrote.

I’d have to say no to your suggestion OP.
Like pointed out above it’s just another way to force players into specific play styles. That’s what we don’t want in GW2.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Or how about we don’t go trinity-lite and let people play exactly how they want? Why are people so insistent on imposing restrictions on classes? Do you not enjoy freedom? Do you not enjoy the fact that you can go balls deep min-max or play a completely atrocious, random build and yet still clear content?

They want to enjoy the freedom of forcing others to play the way they want to. Also the freedom to force others to take them on runs based on the fact that they like to play a spec that would be required.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

True IndigoSundown you can play for fun, it’s mainly how I enjoy to play. But unless you have a close group of friends or a like minded guild when talking about high end PvE your talking about the PuG meta and joining random players. You must remember this is the game play new player’s are going to experience before finding like minded players that don’t mind playing for fun and taking so much longer to complete content. Dungeon speed run are the best example as time differences are a joke.

Also I mentioned that item stats other then zerker being worthless but only when looking at PvE. There are a lot of PvE players that don’t WvW making these item stats useless for them (Again rewards feel less rewarding).

At the moment you can at least make gold off then but this is only because WvWers will buy then. But if you take WvW away what happens to the values of these items then.

I was also talking about player styles, which is typically associated with roles that I believe many feel are missing and these are:

  • Defensive minded
  • Condition (Damage over time) minded
  • Control minded and,
  • Support minded

These players that like to first focus on these styles of play are exclude from high end PvE when not playing with like minded players. Also if you log on but your friends/guild are not logged in unless you play with PuGs you are excluded.

To play high end PvE you need to focus on damage first and then you can bring some support & contol but don’t think about condition focus characters as the boss/champion should be dead before they will have the same effect physical damage has. Not to mention more then one condition player is a no go.

Defensive minded and support minded players are not excluded from anything. You can provide active defense for your party and support in the forms of boons and reflects even in full offensive gear.

Control is somewhat irrelevant given the Defiant mechanic.
Conditions are actually good – the problem with them is the cap that is hit very quickly.

The last 2 ( Control and conditions) have nothing to do with zerker in terms of why they are or are not wanted in high-end PVE.

You mention exclusion but you fail to realize something : players are excluded not because of their gear but because of the way they see the game.

I’m an efficiency oriented player – so I’ll exclude those who are less efficient – gear, number o deaths, choice of class in different areas, understanding of ways to navigate content are all parts of what makes me keep or not keep a player in my party but they’re not the core aspect.

The core aspect is that I want to play with similar individuals and anyone who doesn’t correspond from that point of view will be excluded.

You can be full zerker but if you’re not playing the content right or dying a lot you’ll get kicked.
You can be great at surviving and very good at support and dps but if you’re going to aggro more mobs than we need to you’re going to get kicked.

These examples above serve to explain one core idea : players exclude players based on whether they are part of a category they enjoy playing with or not.
This has everything to do with mentality and very little to do with gear.

That’s why players should play with friends/ similarly minded individuals. You won’t be excluded if the group you’re in is the group for you – with a similar mindset and who want you there.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Devata is obsiously a troll and should get reported, but i bite it.

Why do you want to get toughness? What keeps out of doing it? Why do you want the same killing speed as a berserker geared character? Why you can’t leave this gear issue and realize your build is more reliant on weapon, trait and skill choices?
Why? Why? Why?

Lol naming me a troll based on nothing and then coming with a troll post. Where did I say I want toughness? Where did I say I want the same killing speed as berserker? Where, where where? I did not, that is however what seems to be the main requirement in the game, DPS and some toughness if possible.

I want more focus on roles.

Rigth in this post and previously in a few others.
I assumed you want that, because otherwise it’s just pointless complain from your side.
There there there.

Roles exist, you just can’t see. Not our problem, just yours.

@Bezagron

Please post 1 shot skills from bosses.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

You could add things like alternate routes on the same dungeon path with unique challenges rewarding different roles. It’d be the same A and B in the end. (Would take active tweaking to balance) They should also add more boss AI types, and be mindful of their arenas.

There are different requests among those asking for “diverse play-styles.” Some people, like you, seem to be asking for unique challenges that require seldom used-skills or non-glass gear (A). Others (seems like the majority of the suggestions) are asking for dedicated roles (B).

I won’t say no to your former suggestion. However, what will really happen if something like this would occur? One DPS player would bring along the requisite weapon and/or use the requisite utility skill. If the unique challenge required one player to have different armor, players would start carrying two sets. Once the unique challenge is past, these players would switch back to their max DPS stuff. This might satisfy A, but it wouldn’t do a thing for B.

As to your latter suggestions, variety in new boss encounters would be welcome. That initiative already seems to be on ANet’s plate, at least if TA:AP is any indication. Whether there are further dungeons coming is anyone’s guess. Also, if, “Be mindful of their arenas” means, “Don’t design fights where boss AI cripples itself if pulled somewhere,” then also, “Yes.” That last is not likely to deter meta glass users, though it might mean fewer pseudo-meta PuGgers being able to skate by.

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Posted by: Lian Olsam.9541

Lian Olsam.9541

I’d love to have some differences between classes and pve, dungeons purpose,
there is quite alot actually

i play thief guard war necro mesm ele and the only pve purpose is do the max dmg…
that is incorrect. You assume that is the only reason. it is in fact not

I d like to use my chars differently,
what is stopping you? *

more mechanism, some parts who groups need only to cc enemies for protect npc etc etc…
So you are asking for Content that requires a specific type a role. there by denying access to said content unless you are of that role. Which goes against the fundamental Concepts of this game.

Problem is anet doesent read those kind of thread,
They do actually. *

and just make living story who alot of ppl doesent care,
Alot of people LIKE the living story. *

ppl wanna some dungeons with progress like fotm,
Yes I agree. if anything there is a cry out from the mass for More stuff to do. this has been established. *

and wanna have some unique chance for use his classes..
Again, what is stopping you?

is not possible lf max dps in every contents…
And again this is an incorrect assumption

Bolding mine.

the meta it stopping me…
why i have to spent double of time doing a content if i can do it faster and better?

i’ve tryed to do it differently with some friends, but onestly there is no motivation for follow another way…. the only guys i love support is guardian, i think its better have 4 zerk and a support guard, it’s safer imho, but that’s it, there is no point to play differently…

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

I’d love to have some differences between classes and pve, dungeons purpose,
there is quite alot actually

i play thief guard war necro mesm ele and the only pve purpose is do the max dmg…
that is incorrect. You assume that is the only reason. it is in fact not

I d like to use my chars differently,
what is stopping you? *

more mechanism, some parts who groups need only to cc enemies for protect npc etc etc…
So you are asking for Content that requires a specific type a role. there by denying access to said content unless you are of that role. Which goes against the fundamental Concepts of this game.

Problem is anet doesent read those kind of thread,
They do actually. *

and just make living story who alot of ppl doesent care,
Alot of people LIKE the living story. *

ppl wanna some dungeons with progress like fotm,
Yes I agree. if anything there is a cry out from the mass for More stuff to do. this has been established. *

and wanna have some unique chance for use his classes..
Again, what is stopping you?

is not possible lf max dps in every contents…
And again this is an incorrect assumption

Bolding mine.

the meta it stopping me…
why i have to spent double of time doing a content if i can do it faster and better?

i’ve tryed to do it differently with some friends, but onestly there is no motivation for follow another way…. the only guys i love support is guardian, i think its better have 4 zerk and a support guard, it’s safer imho, but that’s it, there is no point to play differently…

No that’s not what is stopping you. What’s stopping you is the fact that it bugs you that others are playing more efficiently even though that’s not how you want to play.

And because it bothers you you want that to change so everyone is forced to play your way.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Ropechef.6192

Ropechef.6192

the only guys i love support is guardian, i think its better have 4 zerk and a support guard, it’s safer imho, but that’s it, there is no point to play differently…

That is the problem.

You are tying support to gear. Don’t do that.

Everything about a guardian is support.

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Posted by: Dual.8953

Dual.8953

I’d say it’s a pride thing. If he doesn’t play the meta, he’s willfully making himself a 2nd rate player. A lot of dungeon runners to dungeons for prestige, but there’s no prestige to be had in GW2’s dungeons aside from being the speediest speed runner.
So if you want to be respected by your fellow dungeon runners, you have to follow the meta.
You can argue that if you like, but the dungeon community, at least on these forums is none to kind to those that don’t follow their meta.
I recall one incident with a certain youtuber who made fun build guides, they pretty much chased him off the forums because he refused to make meta guides.

I think the biggest thing is attitude the meta has created. The PvE scene has gone from a situation where player skill = skill to where player build = skill. If you aren’t meta, you’re considered unskilled and second rate. Just because of your build.

Registered Altaholic
Part-time Kittenposter

(edited by Dual.8953)

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

Then get kicked for not bringing banners, just like they’d kick a venom Thief for not being a dps/stealth thief.

What? Just yesterday I played fully traited venom thief with an awesome epidemic necro and mobs had like 20-25 stacks of torment all day. So much dps was going around it was unimaginable.

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Posted by: Dual.8953

Dual.8953

Then get kicked for not bringing banners, just like they’d kick a venom Thief for not being a dps/stealth thief.

What? Just yesterday I played fully traited venom thief with an awesome epidemic necro and mobs had like 20-25 stacks of torment all day. So much dps was going around it was unimaginable.

Why not go share said build on the dungeon forum asking for a critique?

Registered Altaholic
Part-time Kittenposter

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

Why not go share said build on the dungeon forum asking for a critique?

I make my own builds and I know they are decent enough, after all my team completes the content smoothly and swiftly.

Besides, last time I did share my own build (codenamed spiritual searing druid) with the montage of its superiority it didn’t end well for me. Suffice it to say, I learnt my lesson. Well, dungeon subforum feedback was actually extremely positive, it was guardian subforum that made me sceptical when it comes to sharing.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Devata is obsiously a troll and should get reported, but i bite it.

Why do you want to get toughness? What keeps out of doing it? Why do you want the same killing speed as a berserker geared character? Why you can’t leave this gear issue and realize your build is more reliant on weapon, trait and skill choices?
Why? Why? Why?

Lol naming me a troll based on nothing and then coming with a troll post. Where did I say I want toughness? Where did I say I want the same killing speed as berserker? Where, where where? I did not, that is however what seems to be the main requirement in the game, DPS and some toughness if possible.

I want more focus on roles.

Rigth in this post and previously in a few others.
I assumed you want that, because otherwise it’s just pointless complain from your side.
There there there.

Roles exist, you just can’t see. Not our problem, just yours.

@Bezagron

Please post 1 shot skills from bosses.

“Rigth in this post” Quote it!

“I assumed” thats where you go wrong all the time.

“Roles exist, you just can’t see. Not our problem, just yours.” Not really, classes (professions) exist but your ‘role’ in a fight boils mainly down to DPS.