Guild Wars 2

Dual.8953:

I’d say it’s a pride thing. If he doesn’t play the meta, he’s willfully making himself a 2nd rate player. A lot of dungeon runners to dungeons for prestige, but there’s no prestige to be had in GW2’s dungeons aside from being the speediest speed runner.
So if you want to be respected by your fellow dungeon runners, you have to follow the meta.
You can argue that if you like, but the dungeon community, at least on these forums is none to kind to those that don’t follow their meta.
I recall one incident with a certain youtuber who made fun build guides, they pretty much chased him off the forums because he refused to make meta guides.

I think the biggest thing is attitude the meta has created. The PvE scene has gone from a situation where player skill = skill to where player build = skill. If you aren’t meta, you’re considered unskilled and second rate. Just because of your build.

So let’s change the game and force people to adhere to a new meta because some players are too proud to make their own play how you want parties.

I’m sorry but that’s not the direction I feel GW2 should take. The game already caters to everybody since everybody can complete content and do it relatively easily.

To take that away and just force people into a different meta is absurd. Why make content that can be tackled by everyone, in any party composition, in any gear require certain sets of gear and certain party compositions?

I’m not sure if theese players would like to simply be buffbots or take pride in that but I guarantee you they wouldn’t be getting more love/respect from the community.

I can tell you back from my days of GW1 – whatever happened if something went wrong it was ultimately the healer/support guy’s fault. He was the first to be called out, bashed and kicked.

The meta has created no attitude – players create attitude and it has nothing to do with what meta is being used.

Player skill, build and other attributes are ultimately just factors that indicate player mentality.
The current meta is a min/max meta with maximum rewards with the minimum of time invested. That’s the core of any meta in any game and we’ll always have a meta revolving around this concept ( because players want rewards – which are the primary motivator in an MMO).

Any player that doesn’t adhere to the min/max meta is going to be undesirable regardless of his skill level, gear or anything else about him. It’s about mentality and nothing else.
Meta players are min-maxers, they want to get in fast and get the loot. If you’re not the same you’re not wanted. It’s as simple as that.

You could be the best full zerker in the game pushing out a lot of damage and being awesome – if you aggro more mobs than you should and make the run slower you’re getting kicked. Not because of gear, or because of skill but because you’ve made the run slower therefore you don’t belong in a group that wants fast runs.

Devata.6589:

“If i need stealth i….” The point is that the main thing you always need is DPS. Would be really great if you could mix it with some toughness.

Devata.6589:

It’s all about DPS and it would be nice to also bring some toughness around.

Devata.6589:

that is however what seems to be the main requirement in the game, DPS and some toughness if possible.

There you go.
I assumed, because …
1. Nothing stop you from using a toughness based build and satisfy your obsession with higher armor numbers.
2a. Therefore you are bothered of the fact that “your playstyle” isn’t accepted OR
2b. You want the same killing speed as full offensive builds.

As i said, you still can’t see it. There are roles which can be filled with various tools (read: skills by weapons, utilites or traits). And tell me an MMO where the fights aren’t based around damage thus killing your opponent thus boiling down to go full DPS after every buff, utility and defense is covered.

Game doesn’t need to force everyone to play a certain way, but it does need content where glass cannons are not optimal. They could still do it but they’ll either be wiped a lot or have to take it slow.
Why should these be allowed to exist? Because they’d be niche encounter for those who value finesse over brute forcing. It wouldn’t be the whole game, but it would be a place for players who prefer techinque over force to thrive. It wouldn’t matter if it’s unfair to the damage focused player. They have all the rest of PvE to play in.

Dalanor.5387:

Devata.6589:

“If i need stealth i….” The point is that the main thing you always need is DPS. Would be really great if you could mix it with some toughness.

Devata.6589:

It’s all about DPS and it would be nice to also bring some toughness around.

Devata.6589:

that is however what seems to be the main requirement in the game, DPS and some toughness if possible.

There you go.
Stop insulting and reporting me. I assumed, because …
1. Nothing stop you from using a toughness based build and satisfy your obsession with higher armor numbers.
2a. Therefore you are bothered of the fact that “your playstyle” isn’t accepted OR
2b. You want the same killing speed as full offensive builds.

As i said, you still can’t see it. There are roles which can be filled with various tools (read: skills by weapons, utilites or traits). And tell me an MMO where the fights aren’t based around damage thus killing your opponent thus boiling down to go full DPS after every buff, utility and defense is covered.

I do have one example. It was a terribly gimicky raid, but a very very fun one.

Pillars of Alra in EQ.

You had 4 areas, each pillar was different.

White you needed Pally’s/Clerics who did extra damage and took less damage IIRC. In there you also had conditions which needed cleansing so it specialized itself for certain classes. Pretty standard but a little gimicky towards those classes strengths. Kill a boss, cleanse the conditions react to the emotes

Black required SK/bards for extra damage and taking less damage. SK’s strength was AE agro and agro in general, in here you had to kite some things while killing off other things and keeping them separated. Again played to the strengths of certain classes

Green required condition damage. It was basically about kiting adds while slowly DoTing the boss to death, Necros, Rangers and Druids were needed here.

Blue… this was my favorite by far. This was the CC area. You had gargoyles that would die upon being Mezed (think Dazed/stuned), If they were close to eachother they broke eachother out. So you were forced to position correctly. Also bigger enemies came through once in a while and would break them out, these people had to be killed with charms. So some things dying to mez, some to charm, basically the entire thing was done without attacking once. It was beautiful. Then to finish that one you had a crystal that had to be destroyed using magic only.

If you scored high enough on those 4 trials it would spawn the last boss which was your generic tank and spank.

But this event did play to the strenght of every class and to every play style. It was made by a guy who I think is one of the best developers I’ve ever seen, he really knew what the players wanted, and how they played. But, in the end it was gimicky, it required certain setups, and it took 54 people to get that kind of diversity. I do not think that’s the aim of GW2 or ANet, I think they want more freedom of choice, but of course with that comes the optimization being more DPS, if more DPS is allowed to run the content then it will be optimal, it’s simply a fact.

Ok just catching up. That’s a great post [i}Ropechef[/i] with the analogue of racing cars and different tracks. But I feel in GW2 you can almost use the one car for all tracks. Now it’s not exactly true, optimal performance requires different offensive builds but it’s still high end PvE be offensive focus or go home.

The other largest problems when talking dungeons in PvE they have felt forgotten. There was the change to AC & a new path in TA but were are the other changes they talked about. PvE focus has been LS, now some like it some not so much but that’s another discussion. It has been almost 2 years and we as players have mastered the existing dungeons with existing mechanics. Their is no longer much if any challenge for these players.

Last on this note if I was a designer of these dungeon I would feel a bit sad as dungeons (meta) have become skipping, stacking & burn. Little of all the designed content is experienced any more in dungeon and I would ask myself why make a whole dungeon if players only want to fight the bosses get the reward and skip everything else in it. For me this type of play would work best in a group Queen Gauntlet with a scoreboard were players can compete on times receiving rewards for fastest of the day, week or month. A dungeon, even a speed run for me should be a battle the whole way through. You should have to fight to each sub boss and the final boss (not skipping all the mobs in between then). This is were I feel different modes could play:

• Speed run Offensive focus, it all about efficiency and speed.
• Vanquishing, Offensive (physical & condition), Defensive, Support & Control focus could all be require as it requires killing all the mobs plus bosses. (Meta unknown)
• Gauntlet. another game that could have progression using dungeon completions, speed run completion & Vanquishing completion to open up options with maybe a laurel plus high gold cost as another (like traits). But functions like the LS2 & personal story, anyone can party up and play but you must have to unlock to get full reward (should be something) and achievements.

Now back to topic and replying.

omg, did u played other game?
roles is MORE different between classes, what’s the difference here? some reflection? then everyone go for dps…
other games have a deepest gameplay and i’d like to see it also in gw2

@Dual
So you want to punish full offensive builds at certain areas for no particular reason meanwhile full tank builds are viable everywhere and removes the lack of risk and the need of using anything beside auto-attack. Seriously. Try it. If something needs to be nerfed in PvE, it’s PVT and cleric builds.

@Bezagron
Still waiting for the list of 1 shot skills from PvE dungeon bosses.

@Jerus
You said yourself, it’s extremely gimmicky fight and my point still stands. Get what you need, fill the rest with DPS.

@Lian
Not a good example, but WoW wasn’t much engaging. DPS classes used 4-5 skills, tanks neither had much more ability, most of them was an emergency button if kitten hits the fan and healers lately got awesome addons thus you just clicked at the whole raid. Roles was the same. Bring your unique stuff and go full nuts, nothing fancy, you can put down your rose tinted glasses.
Care to elaborate with detailed examples?

edit:
@Lian again
WoW had a similar boss in Icecrown, Valrithia Dreamwalker when you need to get a few healers (sometimes one was enough) to phase out and heal the dragon up while the rest of the group does the tank ‘n spank on the swarming adds which comes faster and faster as you progress with the healing. At the beginning when your healers weren’t good enough to duo or solo the “boss” it was a dps race to prevent the adds from overwhelming the raid and kill everybody. Ofc gear solved that problem, but that would be a non-issue here.

Lian Olsam.9541:

other games have a deepest gameplay and i’d like to see it also in gw2

If you’re told what you have to take, that doesn’t add depth; it takes away from depth, since the player can’t make choices themselves.

i didnt play too much at wow, so i dont remember everything, i can speak for example about dcuo, it was some different classes with different ability, 4 main roles, tank, dps, healer and controller (he gave the power for spells at all the group)
dungeons and raids had some trash mob part (and u CANT skip or avoid them like gw2) and bosses with different mechanism…
first of all why i have to see alot of corridors with mobs i can skip… what’s the point?
second, bosses was more engaging, with some mechanics, every classes can give their support differently, u have to cooperate for beat him, in gw2 it’s all about found a corner, stack and do more dps as possible, if someone can put some reflect it will be nice… end of gameplay…
i love gw2 cause he give a chance to everyclasses to be dps or support, but u dont need enything but dps in this game, sure, some skills will help, like wall of reflection, banners, feedback… but alot of classes is pretty useless, necros it’s embarassing, no cleave, no sustain, no mobility, he is good with condi, but u cant play condi in dungeon, every classes spam condi also in full zerk cause skills apply it and u saturate the stacks….

i dont think will be possible modify dungeons we have, and maybe it will also not so fair for ppl love to farm with supazerkfullspeedrun… but i’d like have something like fotm, with a party need some roles “dps, support, cc” at least, cause u will need it for sure, cause some mechanism inside the istance will need that…. u can have alot of alts, so u can switch as u need, is not like other games with bilion of tiers, with the supamegamain t9 and alts with t1… in this game u can make an 80 lvl and buy with gold, www, tokens, crafting a properly armor for make contents, so i’d like to enjoy that… like i told in some post, i play 6 different classes at lvl 80 pve and spvp so i know classes mechanism, and it’s really sad see a big potential back to the game will never see the light…

TheDaiBish.9735:

Lian Olsam.9541:

other games have a deepest gameplay and i’d like to see it also in gw2

If you’re told what you have to take, that doesn’t add depth; it takes away from depth, since the player can’t make choices themselves.

and now what choice do u have? zerk then zerk then zerk? or what? explain me dude, cause i dont see too many choice, i see ppl lf zerk, lf guard war mesm i see necros, engins being kicked from party when they join a lfg, they didnt have the time to say “hello” they will be istantly kicked…. where is the choice?

I’ve got a thought on why things are they way they are. GW2 needs desparately for there to be a hard mode. And it needs to be so hard that Zerker parties will be virtually impossible.
This game is too easy, it’s easy to the point that the elite players in this game have to find ways to severely handcap themselves just too challege themselves.
The reason for that is the game was designed so that full glass cannon parties can be viable.
That considered, hardmode needs to be designed to counter the meta. Enemies need to be hard enough and fast enough that a glass cannon will be at high risk if they melee. They need to not fall for simple tactics like stacking. These dungeons need to operate outside the boundaries that the current dungeons limit themselves to.
The reason why it should be virtually impossible to do in a glass cannon build is because as long as a dungeon is so easy that any team comp works, it can not be truely challenging.
The reason this should exist is there’s a hardcore audience in this game and they are currently not being catered to in any noticable way. They’ve reached the top level of skill this game for asks and now struggle to find ways to squeeze more challenge out of the game.
The reason hard mode needs to be very harsh on the damage meta is, the damage meta forms when the player base has completely mastered the given content. It is the pinnacle of player development. If the content has been mastered to the point that damage meta can exist, the players of that content have nothing more to strive for and the content stagnates. As long as the content is balanced so that glass cannon parties are viable, the content is unable to be truely difficult.
The existence of this content, which defies the game’s current design philisophy, should be permissable because the rest of PvE has already been designed to cater to be playable by everyone. Hardmode is to be a haven for the hardcore players to stretch their legs and push themselves to the limit, which is an experience the main game cannot provide.

Lian Olsam.9541:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Lian Olsam.9541:

other games have a deepest gameplay and i’d like to see it also in gw2

If you’re told what you have to take, that doesn’t add depth; it takes away from depth, since the player can’t make choices themselves.

and now what choice do u have? zerk then zerk then zerk? or what? explain me dude, cause i dont see too many choice, i see ppl lf zerk, lf guard war mesm i see necros, engins being kicked from party when they join a lfg, they didn’t have the time to say “hello” they will be instantly kicked…. where is the choice?

I never said that the current situation is any better, although you do have choice, since for the most part you can complete content with any profession. All that changes is the time it takes to complete said content.

What the game needs is the middle ground; freedom to build your character how you want while having mechanics that get the player to think “what can I bring to this fight that will help it go easier?”. More openness like this also gives groups the choice on how they want to approach the content – each player specialised (dedicated roles) or everyone brings a little of each thing (hybridisation and co-ordination).

When you look at it alongside horizontal progression, this is the whole point of horizontal progression in the form of skills and traits; as the player acquires more tools, more situations where they’re effective should be introduced.

Not content that tells the player “you need to bring classes / roles X, Y and Z otherwise you can’t do the content”.

Thanks for the different take on different minded players IndigoSunDown.

IndigoSundown.5419:

• Defensive-minded: Outside of a trinity game, where do you see defensive gear coming into play?

And this is the sheep in the wolf pack. I agree what’s the point of this gear? Why have it in game? But as you said it find use in WvW so obviously they is a point. So why does it work in WvW and not PvE.

I also like you ideas, why not have objectives like that in some dungeons. Arah story has it with two players required to stand on pressure plates. About trait and gear swapping maybe a dungeon mode like sPvP arena’s that once started locks build for the dungeon run, be locked in unable to change could result in better rewards and making the dungeon harder. I feel dungeons need more mechanics and options.

IndigoSundown.5419:

• DoT Minded: No arguments from me. ANet’s treatment of condition damage in GW2 PvE borders on the ridiculous.

Bar the PvE problems with conditions the minimum kill times on bosses and that even physical damage builds apply conditions makes condition focus build very much less wanted. DoT game play requires time for full effect and meta is all about the burn so as such the boss presents less threat unable to to have time to use all there skills.

IndigoSundown.5419:

• Support: Honestly, I don’t think a dedicated buff-bot can be made to work in high end PvE in this game.

I think we have different ideas of what support is. Buff-bot is one but not when I mean when I support minded. For me support means supporting the team. At the moment offensive support is all the is wanted in meta. Defensive focus support is not. For me support uses all available options this includes boons, condition & control. Support minded for me mean focusing on support the whole encounter.

IndigoSundown.5419:

• Control: If you’re playing high end PvE, I don’t see an issue with requiring a coordinated group to strip Defiant stacks.

Defiant stack as a mechanic aren’t too bad some could say a learn to play issue but defiant has it’s own problems and personal I think defiant once removed should allow controls to effect the target for a small window then just one control.

But is more of the total control immunities that are the main issues with control. I also don’t see much problems with requiring control in groups as many control effects are already tied into most weapon set and it’s raw for any build not to have at least one control available.

IndigoSundown.5419:

1. Every PvE combat encounter in every MMO requires players to defeat the mobs.
2. Optimal DPS is required in high end PvE in every MMO’s meta. Every one. And it always will be. Players doing less than the best DPS are only brought along because the game requires tanks and healers, or because specific encounters require an ability only one build has (e.g., Instructor Razuvious in 25-player Wrath Naxxramas).
3. Dedicated roles were not intended to be part of GW2.
4. Players are expected to be much more self-sufficient in their ability to sustain themselves in GW2 than in older MMO’s.

1. But is damage to only way to defeat something, true it’s the standard method but can encounters have more.
2. If optimal DSP is the only role then you’re excluding every other player. This comes down to encounter mechanics more then anything else. So only DPS players should have access to high end PvE but all players have access to high end sPvP & WvW. Something just seem wrong it that.
3. But players have already created dedicated roles and all of them are offensive focused. As soon as there is an event or encounter there are always roles. You can’t have engaging group play without roles.
4. Self-sufficient does not exclude roles in group encounters otherwise why have group play. GW2 sPvP & WvW have excellent group dynamics that has room for all player minded types that requires other group members to help sustain you so why is this not possible in PvE.

Devata.6589:

Bezagron.7352:

True IndigoSundown you can play for fun

If it is not required to use tactics and team-play what is the fun of doing it. Lets be all tactical and trying to use different roles.. of course he will also just die if we DPS the hell out of him. There is no fun in teamplay (making use of different roles) if it’s useless. It’s fun of that teamplay is the reason you are being victorious.

But who decides what is fun. Each player has a different idea of what’s fun for them and what type of team play is fun.

@Lian
The choice is … make your own groups and you can tank in PVT all day long with likeminded people. And stop with this misinformation, i usually spend 20-30 minutes to find an actual full berserker party (and they can be still traited badly …), meanwhile countless casual parties get filled. Make. Your. Own. Group.

@Dual
Then you just make and artifical challange and force more tanky gear on everyone and remove risk immediately. Balance mate, think about balance.
Elite players are bored anyway, anywhere. The average player is the majority of the playerbase or the less skilles ones. A lot of people still can’t understand how the game could be played (combo fields, proper utility skills, whatnot), but instead of that they just smash everything and hope stuff just dies. Once i had a party where the staff ele literally spammed everything on CD, switch attunement and do the same. When i asked why he just spams? Because earth#4 on a stationary boss (we were in TA wurm at that moment) is kinda pointless. Answer? For fun. Sorry, for me it’s stupid, fun won’t kill the enemy. And you forgot about FGS too, but meh … That would be a logical complain.

DaiBish has good points btw.

@Bezagron
To your last 4 points.

1. Sure, but thats what we call puzzle or gimmicky fights. Think about the trap part in ACp2, where you do nothing just use an enviromental weapon to defeat the “boss” (yeah i know it changed in the recent patch, but you get it). The point still stand for most of the encounters. You deal dmg, the enemy lose health, it dies eventually.

2. Did you ever played any MMO before? There is a best option since this game is based around numbers. Certain factors make a best option out of every possible option. Simple as that. Of course in actual gameplay you must be practical. A good example would be guardian meta builds, which sacrifice a lot of damage output just to get support traits (aoe blind and might on F1 spamming, condi removal, longer reflects, shout cd reduction, vuln stacking, etc.). If a WvW player comes in and want to roleplay tank in PvE, go on. Make his own party, search for likeminded people and do the content.

3. Roles are more flexible and players are using them. For example if you have a thief and engi in your party, you won’t force hopefully the engi to stealth the party, when the thief can done the job better, BUT there is an option to use engi. Same with other mechanics. People use plenty of defensive abilities too like blinds, cripple, chill, aegis, protection, blocks, invulnerabilities, etc.

4. In full offensive parties usually it’s more like damage mitigation, instead of eating the damage and reactively heal it back. But in a full tanky setup it works just fine in PvE.

Bezagron.7352:

IndigoSundown.5419:

• Defensive-minded

And this is the sheep in the wolf pack. I agree what’s the point of this gear? Why have it in game? But as you said it find use in WvW so obviously they is a point. So why does it work in WvW and not PvE?

At the risk of being obtuse, it does work in PvE. It’s an option for someone who feels like they need to be more resilient, so they give up some of their damage for more survivability. This is the same function it serves in the PvP modes.

Bezagron.7352:

I think we have different ideas of what support is. Buff-bot is one but not when I mean when I support minded. For me support means supporting the team. At the moment offensive support is all the is wanted in meta.

I see reflection, block, blind, stealth and protection used quite frequently. Perhaps in the easy, most farmed paths that is not the case, but not all dungeon paths are easy, and the use of these defensive procs makes for a better run.

Bezagron.7352:

1. But is damage to only way to defeat something, true it’s the standard method but can encounters have more.
2. If optimal DSP is the only role then you’re excluding every other player. This comes down to encounter mechanics more then anything else. So only DPS players should have access to high end PvE but all players have access to high end sPvP & WvW. Something just seem wrong it that.
3. But players have already created dedicated roles and all of them are offensive focused. As soon as there is an event or encounter there are always roles. You can’t have engaging group play without roles.
4. Self-sufficient does not exclude roles in group encounters otherwise why have group play. GW2 sPvP & WvW have excellent group dynamics that has room for all player minded types that requires other group members to help sustain you so why is this not possible in PvE.

1. Unless the encounter is set up so that mobs take damage from something other than damage skills, damage is the only way to kill mobs. Such encounters could be used as a variation from the normal, but should not be the norm.
2. In every other MMO, healers and tanks solo poorly. Of course, they do because healing and resilience balance low damage. GW2 is no different. I get that you want other gear setups to have a place in the optimum meta, but I don’t see how that can be made to happen without making certain stat set-ups required.
3. We may have to agree to disagree on this one. I find tank/healer/dps/support roles to be boring as all get out. I’d rather contribute with good play than relying on filling a role mandated by the game. That said, I would have preferred GW2 have a similar stat setup to the original game, with the only stats on armor being defense, and some extra health/energy. The only stats on weapons were damage and a few odds and ends, like a little extra damage and health. If the game had been designed that way, all this talk about gear equating to roles would be moot.
4. GW2 dungeon play was designed with synergy in mind. Coordinated groups were supposed to find ways to be more than the sum of their parts. That is teamwork. What actually happened was that dungeons were designed with a wee bit more forgiveness in mind. One result of this is that non-coordinated groups of anything goes can finish some (maybe not all) paths. Another is that after doing them ad nauseam, the individual contributions to synergy get taken for granted, or aren’t really needed in the easier paths that get done all the time.

Harper.4173:

The core aspect is that I want to play with similar individuals and anyone who doesn’t correspond from that point of view will be excluded.

And I have no problems with this but when looking at a game overall that say play the way you want should high end PvE only have offensive minded players only. Also should the PuG meta be the same as speed runners, the most efficient and high end PvE players I know. We talking about random players coming together to complete content, there meta should be different from the elite of the elite.

When I say defensive, support, control and condition minded players I mean that their focus on these before looking at increasing offence. These players have access to high end play in sPvP & WvW but not PvE this is not about player skill but access.

Then talking about gear again should zerker be to only wanted gear at high end play. Why have all these options, why have all these build choices related to these gear choices if they are pointless. I not saying remove zerker but shouldn’t there be other high end PvE gear choices because if zerker is all you want at high end PvE any other drop are worthless in your mind. Making high end PvE less rewarding for these players.

A overall general comment.

Also I think PvE & GW2 are going to have some interesting changes coming as Arenanet seem to agree that damage should not be the only play style at high end PvE. I say this as the ferocity change was stated as a first step in this process and that they are working on bring support & control up to a similar level.

Harper.4173:

So let’s change the game and force people to adhere to a new meta because some players are too proud to make their own play how you want parties.

Harper your at the highest level of PvE which there should be a level like that but should the random PuG meta be the same? Most other games I know it’s not. Once you have master the PuG meta your next goal is this other meta. Typically this meta requires pre made groups with every member performing at the highest skill level, group coordination and know the content like the back of there hand. This should be the min/maxing level were your pushing the limits not the PuG meta.

I have my doubts that the PuG meta has caught up to the actual meta. However, to whatever extent that it might have, this would be a result of stagnation in the dungeons themselves.

@Dalanor: In pve, all challenge is artificial.
Hard mode should be exist so the hardcore playerbase can actually challenge themselves. A good analogy believe would be swimmers. Gw2 pve is currently like a 1 meter deep kiddy pool, which is perfect for casual swimmers. The issue is competitive swimmers exist too and they can cross the kiddy pool in 5 seconds. They known the butterfly stroke but the kiddy pool is too small to do the breast stroke. They have all this raw skill and nowhere to use it.
This is where hardmode comes in, hardmode comes in. Hardmode is a full sized olympic pool where the competitive swimmer can put all his skills into practice and hone his skills till he fully realizes his potential.
Also when I said it should be virtually impossible to zerk, I mean the enemies strong that you’ll have to play almost perfectly to zerk. Nightmare mode bullet hell hard, but at the same time be fair to those that can manage it. The idea is to make a challenge so hard that the meta that has developed will not work there. Everyone will be knocked down a few pegs. Some as low as Sentinels. Over time as players improve, they’ll shed more and more defense, but ideally the challenge will be so hard that a great deal of players, simply won’t have the capabilities to run zerker melee.
The reason this kind of challenge would be allowed to exist it wouldn’t be a main part of the core gw2 experience. I could take it a step further and say hardmode dungeons shouldn’t reward players in the same way that normal dungeons do. The rewards should be things like rare dungeon exclusive skins. And getting these skins shouldn’t be through rng but rather either currency or a reward track. These skins would be status symbols. Players who play hardmode would play for the prestige these skins bring and the satisfaction of a good challenge, farming should be left to the normal dungeons. (It may also be prudent to disallow changing party members in hardmode, to keep them from being sellable)
Also they shouldn’t allow skipping or anything else that promotes farming. I know it sounds like just another jab at the meta, but the reason is allowing players to skip in a hardmode dungeon it will deminish the value of completing the run. Who’s going to care that you completed the challenge in it’s entirety when that other guy got the same reward as you for half the effort?

Good lord I write long posts on my phone.

Dalanor I always thought GW2 has 1 shot mechanics, but ok 2 shot, downed then defeated unless it’s falling damage. AC Lieutenants Kholer’s pull and spin attack is one that jumps straight to mind as I remember many getting downed.

I will admit that I barely do dungeon any more and only with friends. But my understanding of a 1 shot mechanic is anything that can down/defeat you in 1 hit if you have 75% or more health.

As in any boss fight I don’t expect to be at full health once the fights started. I also find GW2 seem to employ these 1 shot mechanic as there is so much active defence available.

I also don’t feel much different in passive defence between full toughness/vitality (dying 2-3 hits) and have none at all zerker (dying 1-2 hits). The advance zerker provides out strips any reason for having any passive defence. But this is a discrepancy between offensive stats & defence stats. Any no I don’t want passives deciding the out come but their should be a reason for them if they are in game. The offensive stats seem to effect active game play more then the defensive stats. GW2 seems to think defence stats means passive. Allowing for full effect of active defences without having to have any defensive stats. If you don’t use offensive stats your active offence is decease but again this is not the same for active defences.

This means there is no want or desire for any defence stats at high end PvE. This effects build options, the feel of roles (makes only offensive focused roles wanted), and how rewarding rewards feel at high end PvE. As well as making it hard to balance the 3 game modes as PvE is so far removed from sPvP & WvW.

No thank you for the replies IndigoSundown one person’s point of view should not be the be all and end all. I also try not to be obtuse too when discussing.

And to start I agree there is no problem with roles or gear in PvE at anything other then high end PvE.

It’s just that high end sPvP & WvW can have these roles & gears and these high end type of players feel wanted and respected in these game modes. Also item drops feel more rewarding. But there is no room for them in high end PvE.

IndigoSundown I agree support is in a better place then I come across sometimes but in encounters that take less the 20 – 30 sec support feels lacking as it’s more of a fire and forget play. Now this is only my feeling but for these type of players fight times need to be longer. There needs to be plays & counter plays in the support role. The chance to fail.

But I agree there is support roles, it just support gear and roles/build around these are undesired. This comes about because offensive stat improve active offence but defence stats don’t improve active defence but only passive defence.

On the numbered points.

1. I agree these should not be the norm but could provide entertaining variations.
2. Refer to above regarding stats. This is were I believe the problem to be, somehow defence stats also need to be able to improve active defence just like offence stats.
3. I think we have to agree to disagree. But I believe even in the zerker meta of PvE there still are roles. Any well learnt encounter has roles that group member get assigned too.
4. Actually not a problem there is amazing teamwork in GW2 group play. sPvP, WvW & PvE have great examples of this. But is mechanic players have discovered that can bypass these encounters that make them so much faster with less risk.

Ok think I’ve caught up.

IndigoSundown Sadly dungeons have become stagnated and this is part of the large problem with dungeons.

Dual I also believe optional & harder modes and challenges need to be provided. I can only dream for a hard mode, permanent Queen’s gauntlet (solo & group), vanquishing. It also why I’m curious about the new LS2’s challenges & achievements.

@Bezagron: I’m hoping they hard enough to bestow bragging rights.

Dalanor.5387:

@Jerus
You said yourself, it’s extremely gimmicky fight and my point still stands. Get what you need, fill the rest with DPS.

Aye, I was and have been saying the same thing for years , just felt like giving an example of something I had seen, but while it was fun, if the entire game was that way, it wouldn’t feel the same, it’d just be a series of gimmicks.

Lian Olsam.9541:

i didnt play too much at wow, so i dont remember everything, i can speak for example about dcuo, it was some different classes with different ability, 4 main roles, tank, dps, healer and controller (he gave the power for spells at all the group)
dungeons and raids had some trash mob part (and u CANT skip or avoid them like gw2) and bosses with different mechanism…
first of all why i have to see alot of corridors with mobs i can skip… what’s the point?
second, bosses was more engaging, with some mechanics, every classes can give their support differently, u have to cooperate for beat him, in gw2 it’s all about found a corner, stack and do more dps as possible, if someone can put some reflect it will be nice… end of gameplay…

I played DCUO A LOT, and I mean A LOT. My tanks were in full DPS gear for everything except Nexus/Paradox. My healers were always in a mix of DPS and healer gear because I didn’t need that much resto. Troller was the only class that was worth keeping in full gear as power was the fuel of everyone in the group.

Back when Paradox came out after we initially beat it, the first thing we did was take the new Celestial class and utilize it’s Damage → healing conversion to go FULL dps healers and pump out 1/2-2/3 of the damage of DPS while still healing the raid.

Skipping… did you do alerts? Run to the locked door, turn around and kill. Gates of Tartarus, skip the hallways for speed runs.

It was NO DIFFERENT AT ALL from what we’re seeing in GW2, again witht he exception of keeping 1 power troll in content you need it.

They just released Amazon’s Fury a month or two back and people are running that content (top level content for the time being) with 4 DPS.

it had the trinity type system, but even still, to optimize for speed runs (6min paradox) you sacrificed those alternate stats for DPS stats wherever you were safe to do so.

Dual.8953:

Game doesn’t need to force everyone to play a certain way, but it does need content where glass cannons are not optimal. They could still do it but they’ll either be wiped a lot or have to take it slow.
Why should these be allowed to exist? Because they’d be niche encounter for those who value finesse over brute forcing. It wouldn’t be the whole game, but it would be a place for players who prefer techinque over force to thrive. It wouldn’t matter if it’s unfair to the damage focused player. They have all the rest of PvE to play in.

Why does not optimal always have to mean either :

1.Wipe a lot
2.Take it slow.

Why can’t risk be a factor? The Aetherblade Retreat during the LS was not really optimal for full glass until people figured out how to stay alive by getting better.
Does that mean the content was wrongly designed? No. It was designed to be more anti-glass than the norm, but people got better at it.

Eventually people will get better at anything.

You mention “finesse” and “technique” yet I see no difference between bashing things over the head in my zerker gear and doing the same in knight’s gear or PVT. It’s the same thing only slower.

If these sort of instances are what people truly want I suggest these people start working on their fractal progression rank, and get to 49 or 50 and play exactly the content you’ve described.
High-level fractals aren’t “brute forced” and they already exist in the game now.

Also I’m not against adding more content that’s designed the way you mentioned to the game – I just don’t see what value it would bring.

Mechanically different fights would matter – imagine a fight that combined the difficulty of killing Liardri with the difficulty of the Mad King’s Clocktower jumping puzzle.
That I would like to see. That would be something that poses a challenge.

[quote=4136171;Bezagron.7352:

Last on this note if I was a designer of these dungeon I would feel a bit sad as dungeons (meta) have become skipping, stacking & burn. Little of all the designed content is experienced any more in dungeon and I would ask myself why make a whole dungeon if players only want to fight the bosses get the reward and skip everything else in it.

[/quote]

I’ll gladly answer this :

Because all content becomes stale after a repeated number of times of playing through it.

Sure it might have have been exciting to clear a dungeon, fight every mob and see everything the dungeon had to throw at you the first few times.
It might have been fun to explore every inch and fight your way through every encounter, but the more you do it the less interesting/fun it becomes.
And the more you do it the less point you see in doing all the things that you don’t need to do in order to complete.

Dungeons in this game were dead – people rarely did them ( outside of farming) before the dungeon reward update hit and boosted the rewards. That’s when people started doing them again.

But they started doing them again for the reward and not for the experience.

The dungeon experience in GW2 was something that veteran players have experienced almost 2 years ago, lived through it and that was that.

No matter how the dungeon is changed, with mobs not running aggro or bosses being made harder AC will never be new to me after having done it hundreds of times.

Once you’ve done the content hundreds of times and know it by heart be sure you’ll also want to skip the stuff you could quote by heart and have seen an endless amount of times in order to get to what actually brought you there – the reward.

The answer to GW2’s dungeon problem is simple :

More dungeons.

Dual.8953:

The reason for that is the game was designed so that full glass cannon parties can be viable.

That’s not actually it. The reason is that they designed the game to have a very low skill ceiling required to play and complete content successfully.

This was done in order to keep a good retention rate of hypercasual players – the kind of player that isn’t very good at games and can’t be very good ( because he’s got a job and spends most of his time outside the game) but who might be inclined to spend money on the gem store ( because he has a job and can afford it).

The indirect ( and unavoidable) side-effect of this is that very skilled players ( the kind that play the game for thousands of hours on end because they have the time – or just the kind that are good at games in general) are capable of mitigating every threat the game poses through skill and don’t need defensive gear because they can compensate the lack of passive defense with their own ability as a player.

This is what lead to the viability of full glass parties.

Bezagron.7352:

Harper.4173:

The core aspect is that I want to play with similar individuals and anyone who doesn’t correspond from that point of view will be excluded.

And I have no problems with this but when looking at a game overall that say play the way you want should high end PvE only have offensive minded players only. Also should the PuG meta be the same as speed runners, the most efficient and high end PvE players I know. We talking about random players coming together to complete content, there meta should be different from the elite of the elite.

When I say defensive, support, control and condition minded players I mean that their focus on these before looking at increasing offence. These players have access to high end play in sPvP & WvW but not PvE this is not about player skill but access.

Then talking about gear again should zerker be to only wanted gear at high end play. Why have all these options, why have all these build choices related to these gear choices if they are pointless. I not saying remove zerker but shouldn’t there be other high end PvE gear choices because if zerker is all you want at high end PvE any other drop are worthless in your mind. Making high end PvE less rewarding for these players.

1.High-end PVE will always have maximum offense in mind. With just as much defense as they’re forced to take. And I stress forced.
Change the game to force the meta of high-end to incorporate a Cleric’s guardian for example and he won’t be wanted there – he’ll be required. It’s a completely different thing.

2.The PUG meta is very different from the speed runner’s meta. The fact that you don’t know this makes me wonder if you’re really informed about these things.
The current PUG meta in dungeons is : “stack warriors and guardians, kick rangers and other stuff”. More or less that.

High-end speed clear teams have one warrior maximum – for the banners. These teams stack eles because eles pump out a lot more damage than warriors.
Even trait-wise high-end teams and PUG groups don’t overlap – PUG traits are distributed around what they feel they need and don’t change at all. High-end teams usually change traits before a dungeon/ encounter and are usually very flexible.

The PUG meta in GW2 is metaphorically a kid on a bicycle trying to imitate a guy on a motorcycle. They are not the same.

3.Condition players are never going to have a place in PVE not because of kill times ( which wouldn’t be that big of an issue since I doubt they’d vary greatly but because of condition caps. That has nothing to do with the meta.

4.Control will never be a thing because defiant makes it unreliable.

Players who don’t get points 3 and 4 will be excluded from high-end content ran by efficient players simply because they don’t understand the game.

5.High end-PVE will always have a preferred set-up – it might be zerker’s now and something else later -but there will always be something that is the best and people will only want that and exclude those who don’t have it.
If they nerf zerker’s / change the encounters – we’ll just roll with whatever’s best in line and people will exclude based on that.

Dual.8953:

Game doesn’t need to force everyone to play a certain way, but it does need content where glass cannons are not optimal. They could still do it but they’ll either be wiped a lot or have to take it slow.
Why should these be allowed to exist? Because they’d be niche encounter for those who value finesse over brute forcing. It wouldn’t be the whole game, but it would be a place for players who prefer techinque over force to thrive. It wouldn’t matter if it’s unfair to the damage focused player. They have all the rest of PvE to play in.

You have it, it’s called Tequatl where glass cannon is not optimal and pvt is.

Dual.8953:

I’ve got a thought on why things are they way they are. GW2 needs desparately for there to be a hard mode. And it needs to be so hard that Zerker parties will be virtually impossible.
This game is too easy, it’s easy to the point that the elite players in this game have to find ways to severely handcap themselves just too challege themselves.
The reason for that is the game was designed so that full glass cannon parties can be viable.
That considered, hardmode needs to be designed to counter the meta. Enemies need to be hard enough and fast enough that a glass cannon will be at high risk if they melee. They need to not fall for simple tactics like stacking. These dungeons need to operate outside the boundaries that the current dungeons limit themselves to.
The reason why it should be virtually impossible to do in a glass cannon build is because as long as a dungeon is so easy that any team comp works, it can not be truely challenging.
The reason this should exist is there’s a hardcore audience in this game and they are currently not being catered to in any noticable way. They’ve reached the top level of skill this game for asks and now struggle to find ways to squeeze more challenge out of the game.
The reason hard mode needs to be very harsh on the damage meta is, the damage meta forms when the player base has completely mastered the given content. It is the pinnacle of player development. If the content has been mastered to the point that damage meta can exist, the players of that content have nothing more to strive for and the content stagnates. As long as the content is balanced so that glass cannon parties are viable, the content is unable to be truely difficult.
The existence of this content, which defies the game’s current design philisophy, should be permissable because the rest of PvE has already been designed to cater to be playable by everyone. Hardmode is to be a haven for the hardcore players to stretch their legs and push themselves to the limit, which is an experience the main game cannot provide.

So full zerker is now impossible, I swap from it to pvt and now I can complete a content. What has changed for me except that I have to spend money on another set of gear?

What has happened is that people crying about berserker have their little fix and then they’ll start crying about your PVT gear a day later.

“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard, that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu

That aside, forcing a Hard Mode that ‘counters the META’ isn’t going to solve much. If people like the Hard Mode, they’ll just find a new META to complete it as efficiently as possible, and you’ll just have 2 different META’s, and then people will complain about that META as well, and we’ll be full circle.

Also, I don’t see how artificially forcing people to wear more defensive gear, thus stretching out fights makes anything interesting. Forcing people to range isn’t very interesting either. Look at the Ooze boss in Arah p1, or Melandru in Arah p4, and look how much love those bosses. Hint: they don’t.

@Bezagron

You keep saying that there should be dedicated support that needs to look at support before DPS. But that’s simply not how it works. People will always take the bare minimum they need for support and spec full offense after they covered all their bases. This has always been done in any MMO with a META ever. Even in GW1, in DoA, we had 2 backline support roles, and one of them took certain extra skills to speed up some encounters, depending on which team build you ran. In fact, the META right now is having that person take 1 skill that’s useful in exactly 4 spots in the entire area. Yet, they take it, because it speeds up those 4 encounters enough to make it worth taking that skill, and an extra support skill would be redundant anyway.

People take defensive support in high-level Fractals. A hammer Guardian for perma prot, blind spam on multiple characters usually. Other than that, I don’t really see what more support you need. Forcing people to take support is not good design. Right now, anyone can run anything. You have complete freedom. I really don’t understand why people want to deviate from full freedom in order to get their niche satisfied.

Harper.4173:

Dual.8953:

The reason for that is the game was designed so that full glass cannon parties can be viable.

That’s not actually it. The reason is that they designed the game to have a very low skill ceiling required to play and complete content successfully.

This was done in order to keep a good retention rate of hypercasual players – the kind of player that isn’t very good at games and can’t be very good ( because he’s got a job and spends most of his time outside the game) but who might be inclined to spend money on the gem store ( because he has a job and can afford it).

The indirect ( and unavoidable) side-effect of this is that very skilled players ( the kind that play the game for thousands of hours on end because they have the time – or just the kind that are good at games in general) are capable of mitigating every threat the game poses through skill and don’t need defensive gear because they can compensate the lack of passive defense with their own ability as a player.

This is what lead to the viability of full glass parties.

Still if they make a hard mode they should make it with the top players in mind rather than the bottom. At least imo. Otherwise I see the Hard mode content becoming just as trivial as the regular content.

@Dual
Making every possible damage source to a 50k+ instagib isn’t hard mode nor interesting. Thats why i said it’s artifical challange (cough fractals cough) and by itself isn’t enough. Forcing players to wear tanky gear to handle content is lame and simoltaneously it slows down encounters for no reason.
Protection, slaying potions, blinds, weakness, blocks etc. would help a lot still, so meh …
Skipping is great! Why? First of all, you aren’t forced to do it, except in Arah thats just a pain in the rear end. Second it’s extremely rewarding to do it, because you finish the dungeon faster (no drop -> no point to kill them). Third, i find it great that GW2 utilize movement skills in the content.

For your latest post. If Anet makes such content, it shouldn’t be more rewarding than other options more accesible to “casuals” because it would make them cry. That way the rewards should be in line or worse, so after the initial novelty wears off, people will abandon it. Fractals says hi!

@Bezagron
Move out from AC please. In my opinion, 1 shot skill is which kills you in 1 shot, but luckily we have only a handful of these. Of course it depends on your class a lot, since Ele die from a sneeze, while warrior can eat a few here and there, even the most devastating ones.

Question. Give me a reason why should i stack defensive stats (even if they would scale better) when active defenses negates damage by 100% from multiple sources often for a few seconds meanwhile it enables to wear full offensive gear and finish the content faster?

haviz.1340:

Dual.8953:

I’ve got a thought on why things are they way they are. GW2 needs desparately for there to be a hard mode. And it needs to be so hard that Zerker parties will be virtually impossible.
This game is too easy, it’s easy to the point that the elite players in this game have to find ways to severely handcap themselves just too challege themselves.
The reason for that is the game was designed so that full glass cannon parties can be viable.
That considered, hardmode needs to be designed to counter the meta. Enemies need to be hard enough and fast enough that a glass cannon will be at high risk if they melee. They need to not fall for simple tactics like stacking. These dungeons need to operate outside the boundaries that the current dungeons limit themselves to.
The reason why it should be virtually impossible to do in a glass cannon build is because as long as a dungeon is so easy that any team comp works, it can not be truely challenging.
The reason this should exist is there’s a hardcore audience in this game and they are currently not being catered to in any noticable way. They’ve reached the top level of skill this game for asks and now struggle to find ways to squeeze more challenge out of the game.
The reason hard mode needs to be very harsh on the damage meta is, the damage meta forms when the player base has completely mastered the given content. It is the pinnacle of player development. If the content has been mastered to the point that damage meta can exist, the players of that content have nothing more to strive for and the content stagnates. As long as the content is balanced so that glass cannon parties are viable, the content is unable to be truely difficult.
The existence of this content, which defies the game’s current design philisophy, should be permissable because the rest of PvE has already been designed to cater to be playable by everyone. Hardmode is to be a haven for the hardcore players to stretch their legs and push themselves to the limit, which is an experience the main game cannot provide.

So full zerker is now impossible, I swap from it to pvt and now I can complete a content. What has changed for me except that I have to spend money on another set of gear?

I never said impossible, I said virtually impossible. Soldiers, would be what people would run when they’re still learning not to die. Ideally what would happen is the majority of players would eventually become skilled enough that they could do it in Knight’s (or something around there, there’s a lot of gear that’s similar to Knight’s), a small handful could do it in Zerkers, and the best of those ones could go Zerker Melee.
The beauty of having the majority of players at a Knight’s skill level is Knights is something of a middle ground, meaning most player base will have to consider defense just as important as offense. The beauty of that situation is that’s where most of the build variety is.
Make things hard enough and all the things that the current glass cannon meta scoffs at becomes more appealing, meaning more valid weapon choices, upgrade choices, trait choices and skill choices.
The other thing to consider is, if you really must Zerk speedrun, you can still go to normal mode.
In fact I’d prefer if they designed hard mode’s reward structure different from normal mode’s.
First, I think that hard mode shouldn’t offer more gold and mats than normal mode. Hard mode shouldn’t be something people go to farm, but rather a place for players to test their skill.
Rather that gold and such the rewards in hard mode should be status symbols. Unique skins and titles.
I think the best way to distribute them would be track rewards rather than tokens or RNG.
That way when players see you strutting around with your (say for example) Flaming Zhaitan’s Fang Greatsword, they’ll know you endured Arah Hard Mode 5 times to get that.
If they do it this way and account bind the skins, the rewards from hard mode dungeons would be arguably more of a show of your prowess as a player than Legendaries.
On a last note, in order to preserve the integrity hard mode, I think they’d also need to make it so you can’t change party members during a run. This’d be to stop players from selling the slots or kicking for guildies.

With all that said, I’ll assume that I have successfully disgusted the entire speed run community, and to them I give a sigh, and start reminiscing about days long past, when beating Contra without the konami code made you the coolest kid on the block.

Again, a nonsense idea against legit path sellers … Envy?
Btw blind, aegis, blocks, invulnerability, projectile defense etc still negates 100% incoming damage and the combination of protection and weakness reduce damage by a lot too, so whats the point of increasing mob damage? It’s just dumb. Overwhelm the instance with unvadoidable damage is dumb and lazy solution. Discriminating really good players by locking the instance is just rude. Stop with the playhowiwant attitude pls.

Fractals currently is the closest to having a PVT pug “meta” and you still get berserker LFGs for 49/50s.

You’re never going to have a situation where the majority are running PVT/knights and people actually ask for that stat combination once the content has been done a billion times.

Harper.4173:

Because all content becomes stale after a repeated number of times of playing through it.

I strongly agree with this. And thank you Harper my mistake for coming across as if PuG meta was the same as high end speed clears.

But talking high end PvE how rewarding is it? 90% of any drop feels next to worthless. Part of the problem is were are the rewards for this level of player? The other half is that all other items other then what fits zerker are undesired.

You also say forced to take but speed clears are about efficiency. When you talk about efficiency aren’t defensive, supportive, and control focused play styles included. Or is only offensive focus styles to be the only efficient high end play allowed. Can’t encounters be create that include these as well and efficient players wants then.

Also why is it offensive stats can improve active offensive play but defensive stats can’t improve active defence play.

As you say skilled players can mitigate every threat the game poses.

But this is only because active defence is independent and does not require any defensive stats. A truly offensive player has the exact same active defence as a defensive focused player.

Also more needs to be done for high end players, a speed run mode and/or vanquishing mode for dungeons. You just enjoy boss fights, maybe a queen’s gauntlet style arena were you can solo or do group play. It could also have progression were you go around the world killing champions & legendary boss & creatures to collect them for you arena with a similar option like traits too buy. Timed jumping puzzles. All of these with in game leader boards, but this is getting side tracked.

All I’m really wondering is why these other focused role can’t be included, as there is no problem in the other 2 game modes (sPvP & WvW) at high end play.

Dalanor I left the dungeons a long time ago. A been there done that kind of thing. Also they kind of loss there challenge, I just do them for fun sometimes now and then.

As just mentioned above at the moment if your that skilled there is none, as active defence is enough to complete content. This is because defensive stats do nothing to improve active game play but offensive stats do. For defensive stat to be more desired they need to somehow improve active game play as well.

Dalanor.5387:

Again, a nonsense idea against legit path sellers … Envy?
Btw blind, aegis, blocks, invulnerability, projectile defense etc still negates 100% incoming damage and the combination of protection and weakness reduce damage by a lot too, so whats the point of increasing mob damage? It’s just dumb. Overwhelm the instance with unvadoidable damage is dumb and lazy solution. Discriminating really good players by locking the instance is just rude. Stop with the playhowiwant attitude pls.

This isn’t play how you want. Hard mode throws that concept out the window. And you’re thinking way to small.
I never said unavoidable damage or just increasing. I said make it so you have to be an outstanding player to be a melee Zerker in hard mode, if you’re able to go zerk right off the bat and succeed, then fine, you’ve proven you’re outstandingly skilled.
What I have in mind for meleeing in hardmode is akin to hard mode in a bullet hell game. Really hard to do, but still doable if you have the skills.

In other words, rather than simple stat changes to mobs, they need new attack patterns, new AI, wider access to skills and other combat facets like boons, evades and debuffs. If these are to be hardmode mobs, the designer better be doing something innovative while channeling their inner sadist. The restrictions that hold the bar low enough for the playhowyouwants are gone, the goal is to make the most grueling, unforgiving yet doable challenge possible.
Explain to me how such a challenge is playhowyouwant. It sounds more like you just don’t want to adapt, which is fine, you can still do your normal mode speed runs, and probably be richer at the end of the day.

The reason I said no path selling in hard mode is because my idea of the hard mode rewards are status symbols. If you let any old joe buy their way to the end, then those status symbols lose their meaning.
I mean look at the Dungeon Master title, no one cares that you have it, and they probably suspect you bought paths to get it.
Look at the Legendary weapons, they’re supposed to be the ultimate status symbols in this game, and yet since it’s possible to buy them off the TP, they mean nothing to the playerbase.
If you want a status symbol to keep its prestige, you can’t allow player’s to bypass the challenge that the symbol represents.

@Dual
Give proper examples, because “make a better encounter” isn’t enough. Either the mob hit harder or faster or both, therefore you encourage tanky gear. Sure, you are right in that matter that if you are good enough as a team you can still succed, but that would just boil down to the same concept as we have now. Get proper builds, get banners and other buffs, might stack, position and FGS stuff to death if you need heavy burst. But here you would simply punish not so good parties with the above things i wrote, right? Because currently the lack of punishment is one of the reasons that makes the content easy and of course it’s old and players run trough it a million times. So you get it.

So give an example, because your idea of, let me quote:

In other words, rather than simple stat changes to mobs, they need new attack patterns, new AI, wider access to skills and other combat facets like boons, evades and debuffs.

It doesn’t cut it. New AI? How? Wider acces to skills? Well that could be good, Lupi and Liadri imo is a great example to this. Boons and debuffs can be removed, so i don’t see it as an improvement, except if they can’t be removed, but thats just dumb isn’kitten Evades can be good, but if the mob just spams it randomly (pirate crew in the gauntlet) it’s worthless. This kind of idea is playhowiwant not the challange, because it suggests another generic “lets nerf the crap out of zerkers and make my playstyle aka tanking optimal” idea. Sorry if i misunderstood you.

I’m not sure this status symbol thing would be a thing ever in this game, since Anet want to treat everyone with this “everybody is equal” stuff, hell even legendaries can be bought with gold … Oh one exception, the SAB tribulation skins, but that content suited for solo play more or less.
And as i wrote above, the reward shouldn’t be better than other options, since the “non-elite” players would demand it and cry about why certain part of the playerbase can earn more and they don’t (see: legit path sellers). If you make it less rewarding than it should be, it won’t worth the effort and you made Fractals 2.0, but prestige items would have a value for a while like TA Aether weapon drops.

ps: Archdiviner and Mossman on higher scales actually similar to your idea. It can be punishing (party wipe) for lesser skilled groups (if they actually fight with them and dont use safe spots) or better ones just steamroll over them. But i’m not sure you tought about this kind of challange.

@Bezagron
Healing power and boon duration increase certain active abilities effect, which can be great if you build for it. My favourite pre-patch vid about how tanky builds are viable. And how vitality and toughness should improve anything beside armor and health pool which are passive stats? More importantly, why?
Gear and thus stats are balancing out your own survival vs. your damage output so you can gear yourself up with a set that suits your skill level. If you are good enough, go full offensive, if you need some backup, use knights or a few soldier pieces. Get it?

To clarify the concept, the idea isn’t to make Zerk’s not optimal, just up the risk factor across all armour sets. Skilled Zerkers will thrive, sloppy zerkers will be punished for their sloppiness. What I’m aiming for is an alternative mode of play in which players looking for a challenge can thrive. I want it to be about challenging yourself and earning your bragging rights, so I’d rather not see Hard Mode dungeons become something people farm.
As for the mobs, I can’t say I know exactly what I’d like it to look like, but I’d like meleeing them to be an intense struggle, something that gives you a rush to fight. They’d need to not be as easy to manipulate as our current mobs. I think the main thing I’d like to to see is from them is more action game, less rpg.
As for whether or not the rewards should be non-monetary (account bound) status symbols, if they decided to make them status symbols, I’d like them to have the stones to tell the whiner’s no.
If they make the rewards like their normal mode counterparts with bigger numbers then sell away.
The whole thing is up to Anet in the end anyway.

I saw how they do boss fights in a certain other NCSoft game, and it was a beautiful sight to behold, dancing around patterned AoEs, always in motion. I wish Anet would introduce encounters more similar to that, or a certain Sega MMO who’s predecessor got me into the genre in the first play.

Bezagron.7352:

Devata.6589:

Bezagron.7352:

True IndigoSundown you can play for fun

If it is not required to use tactics and team-play what is the fun of doing it. Lets be all tactical and trying to use different roles.. of course he will also just die if we DPS the hell out of him. There is no fun in teamplay (making use of different roles) if it’s useless. It’s fun of that teamplay is the reason you are being victorious.

But who decides what is fun. Each player has a different idea of what’s fun for them and what type of team play is fun.

Well obviously everybody complaining about the fact that it’s all so heavily focused on DPS in stead of some good team-play and different roles, does not consider stack and DPS to be fun. But sure there will also be people whole like just ‘brainless’ zerging and DPSing. Others like fights that require some more tactics.

@Dual
Ahh, that makes more sense now. Can you show me a proper example of your idea? Another game is fine too and youtube link is appreciated.

@Devata
If you aren’t “zerging and DPSing” what do you do personally? Stand still? I’m pretty sure you deal damage thus DPSing. But lets step aside from that.
If you aren’t “zerging” you already wear a more tanky gear set and based on your comments you don’t play a meta build either so, where is the tactic? Ranging? Hahh, no. Melee in immortal tanky builds? What? What do you do exactly? Use this editor, i’m seriously curious.

Dual.8953:

First, I think that hard mode shouldn’t offer more gold and mats than normal mode. Hard mode shouldn’t be something people go to farm, but rather a place for players to test their skill.
Rather that gold and such the rewards in hard mode should be status symbols. Unique skins and titles.
I think the best way to distribute them would be track rewards rather than tokens or RNG.

Yeah, if that is how it’s implemented, people will run it once, just to get the achievement or title, or get the reward from it they want (provided they actually want one of the rewards, given the effort), and then never ever touch it again.

You might think it’s noble to run a path purely for the challenge of it, but if it’s not properly rewarding, people aren’t going to run it. The Aetherpath in TA provided some artificial challenge, which was poorly implemented. Most of it exists of pointlessly long puzzles. And, I don’t mind a puzzle in a dungeon path, in fact, most dungeon paths have a puzzle in them (orb in Arah p3/4, CoF p1 gate, CoE lasers and the button in p1…) and they’re just fine. The thing is, Aetherpath included too many puzzles, artificially slowing you down and making the path a lot less interesting.

It also included some anti-melee mechanics, as in, thing that blow up in your face when you die. Also, a lot of stuns, confusion etc, all things that would slow down a melee zerker party.

Remind me again how popular the Aetherpath is.

(on a side note, bring TAFU back, I miss Vevina, she was actually and interesting fight)

Devata.6589:

Well obviously everybody complain about the fact that it’s all so heavily focused on DPS in stead of some good team-play and different roles, does not consider stack and DPS to be fun. But sure there will also be people whole like just ‘brainless’ zerging and DPSing. Others like fights that require some more tactics.

If running organized zerker tactics is so easy, why do people always complain about zerkers being dead? I don’t get it, people always claim 2 things: 1. zerker takes no skill and there is no risk/reward 2. zerkers are always dead. It can be one, or the other, but it can’t be both. Unless it actually does have risk/reward and bad players can’t pull it off.

Also, running in organized groups isn’t mindless zerging. It’s spamming blinds, timing Aegis, stacking might, keeping vuln up, keeping the proper buffs on your group, etc.

Just because it doesn’t happen in PUG groups doesn’t mean that everybody plays as unorganized as you do.

Errant.1942:

@Bezagron

You keep saying that there should be dedicated support that needs to look at support before DPS. But that’s simply not how it works. People will always take the bare minimum they need for support and spec full offense after they covered all their bases. This has always been done in any MMO with a META ever.Even in GW1, in DoA, we had 2 backline support roles, and one of them took certain extra skills to speed up some encounters, depending on which team build you ran. In fact, the META right now is having that person take 1 skill that’s useful in exactly 4 spots in the entire area. Yet, they take it, because it speeds up those 4 encounters enough to make it worth taking that skill, and an extra support skill would be redundant anyway.

People take defensive support in high-level Fractals. A hammer Guardian for perma prot, blind spam on multiple characters usually. Other than that, I don’t really see what more support you need. Forcing people to take support is not good design. Right now, anyone can run anything. You have complete freedom. I really don’t understand why people want to deviate from full freedom in order to get their niche satisfied.

The bolded, I have to say the first line is incorrect based on the following lines. As you say you cover the bases… that IS treating support first, but simply stopping that as soon as you are covered.

A guardian/mesmer is there for support first, and DPS second. Just so happen that with the game as it is, we can run full glass cannon builds with only a few concessions to our DPS in order to have that support we need.

Mesmer can run 66002 or 64004 for DPS, but when they want more reflects they’ll bounce to 64040 or something like that. And the whole time they’re choosing their weapons/traits based on primarily the support they bring with mantras going in the default spots if nothing is needed.

Same for guard. I run hammer so I will go 55040 for max DPS, but I rarely have the opportunity to run that as I usually want Consecrations which means 35042 at a minimum. But I also usually want to cover condition removal in my group personally. So I drop to 33044. The DPS additions are dropped instantly when the utility and support is needed. I only bring the max DPS when I know I’m safe to do so.

Support first, DPS in every spot that you don’t need to choose the support option.

Dual.8953:

Harper.4173:

Dual.8953:

The reason for that is the game was designed so that full glass cannon parties can be viable.

That’s not actually it. The reason is that they designed the game to have a very low skill ceiling required to play and complete content successfully.

This was done in order to keep a good retention rate of hypercasual players – the kind of player that isn’t very good at games and can’t be very good ( because he’s got a job and spends most of his time outside the game) but who might be inclined to spend money on the gem store ( because he has a job and can afford it).

The indirect ( and unavoidable) side-effect of this is that very skilled players ( the kind that play the game for thousands of hours on end because they have the time – or just the kind that are good at games in general) are capable of mitigating every threat the game poses through skill and don’t need defensive gear because they can compensate the lack of passive defense with their own ability as a player.

This is what lead to the viability of full glass parties.

Still if they make a hard mode they should make it with the top players in mind rather than the bottom. At least imo. Otherwise I see the Hard mode content becoming just as trivial as the regular content.

100% agreed.

I want Hard Mode to be really hard. I also want worthwile rewards that are worth getting in for the hours put in to get good at those encounter.

And I don’t mean gold – sure gold is good and it could give us some gold but far better rewards could come in the form of :

-unique armor and weapon skins
-unique titles
-unique minis

Things that are specific to that place alone. Sort of like fractal weapons but dear god please WITHOUT THE RNG.
Use a token system!!!.

Dalanor.5387:

@Dual
Ahh, that makes more sense now. Can you show me a proper example of your idea? Another game is fine too and youtube link is appreciated.

@Devata
If you aren’t “zerging and DPSing” what do you do personally? Stand still? I’m pretty sure you deal damage thus DPSing. But lets step aside from that.
If you aren’t “zerging” you already wear a more tanky gear set and based on your comments you don’t play a meta build either so, where is the tactic? Ranging? Hahh, no. Melee in immortal tanky builds? What? What do you do exactly? Use this editor, i’m seriously curious.

I don’t do anything as there is nothing to do. Thats the whole point. Isn’t is. So strange question.

My main is a ranger so how can I make use of my (as ranger) specialties to help the group in tactical play. What is my specialty that the team likes to make use of?

Range isn’t any required ‘tactic’ in this game. It could be depending on how you design bosses and content but it isn’t in GW2.

Going back to the Wolfenstein ET example. Yeah obviously everybody does damage but you also have your own specialties the group needs. The engineer helps to clear the route to the target by blowing up walls or other blockades. Sometimes even blowing up the target. The Field Ops makes sure everybody has enough ammo and also gives support fire (letting a plane drop some bombs). The medic helps people up and get the to 100% HP again. The soldier is there to support in your heavy fire also useful to attack enemy vehicles or clearing an area (flame thrower). Lastly there is Covert Ops who is for your more precise attacks. Using a sniper or steal an enemy identity letting you inside enemy building without having to blow up the entrance.
Together you get the job done.

Of course there are many more examples of other games. Another good example is commandos (1 – 3) there also every class has it’s obvious specialties / role. Now that makes teamwork interesting. So again there is no problem in doing something else as the holy trinity as that reduces the whole combat to 3 roles… Oow and also then there are many classes (what some people now here try to sell as roles but really isn’t) but basically there are 3 roles. Healer, Tank and DPS.