Guild Wars 2

We need to talk. Like, serious discussion (puns unintended) about traits. Because you can’t deny how much traits make or break things. Hopefully, all of you will join on your thoughts and what not and with (LOTS) of luck we might get a red response.

Ok to me there are things you just don’t make for traits-
1)Steroids. Never. I don’t mean “gain 20% damage when target is below 50%” or something. I mean “give nearby allies 150 precision”. I want to slam my head into a wall when I read that. Why would I waste a trait for that? Also, “convert 10% of toughness into condi dmg”. No. That’s not only a steroid, its a BIG one. I don’t want to choose between overbearing or weak stat traits. I want something meaningful.
2) Cooldown reduction. Please stop. If I want to play a weaponset, I don’t want to search through my traits to see the “and if you buy now, we’ll throw in a second one free” ad. Either lower the cooldowns or don’t, but just remove these. They waste slots.
3) Redundant traits. “Hammer damage is increased by 25% to stunned targets. Oh and if you pick this trait in a completely unrelated line, you also gain 50% stun chance!!!!”….. “Now, you came to your thief. Good. Here- this trait lowers steals cd. But so does that one.” …. Stop. Just… stop please. Makes it look like no one cared when they read it, and makes us wonder if anyone did in fact read them.
4) Improper reward traits- 50% crit chance in deathshroud, 20% damage to targets below 50% hp…its like “oh you want big damage, here take these”. Then people are crying over a bursty meta… I wonder why. Not to say gaining damage is bad, but when the numbers are so high…
5) Mandatory traits. Anyone who plays Thief or Elementalist extensively will tell you that at least one line is mandatory. Not because of the benefits, or how strong it is, but because it contains so much that NEEDS TO BE BASELINE. Why do I have a trait that raises my base initiative? While you also nerfed the costs to be way too high on my skills? (cnd is 6, total without trickery line is 12, easy math folks) Elemental Attunement is pretty big.
6)RNG traits. Nuff said? Just in case not, I don’t want to pick a slot that “has a chance to” do something. That’s pointless. Either it does or it doesn’t, I don’t need random numbers. Neither do you when you balance. I don’t know anyone who enjoys gambling while trying to outplay someone.
7) Conflicting traits. One needs look no further than Rangers at this point. You have a trait that gives you 10% damage for keeping your endurance full, but on another line that you’d highly consider taking for damage you have a trait that gives you 10% damage for dodge rolling successfully.

Examples of good traits are everywhere however, because they (anet) do a good job very often- Panic Strike for Thieves is just beautiful. For doing your job as a thief, your trait rewards you. Meaningfully. Also, when you have a number of conditions on you, send them to your enemy (necro) and that synergizes with the signet trait that converts 2 boons to conditions when hitting someone with a signet. To me good traits are ones that reward you for playing. You don’t have to go “here’s a stat bar, eat it”. You get good traits like striking a foe while over 90% hp removes these conditions, burns apply blinds, blinds apply confusion. Things that, just by playing, you get an effect from. You don’t have to contemplate staying in one weapon set. You play how it makes you feel good, and you get something from it. Not to say everything will always be effective in that sort of scenario, but I don’t want to pick a trait that says I need a certain weapon to gain the effect (while wielding a sword, successfully evading an attack reduces steals cooldown).

Not saying Anet didn’t do a great job in some (a lot) of zones, but I wish they would take a quick second look. If you are set on releasing a new xpac, you need to be OPEN to suggestions and very willing to explain your reasoning. A one way door is one that people walk out of.

Before I talk about specific Traits lemme say (I’m going to make a bigger post on Thief and what I would do) I do think Anet needs to take time to read through each forum zone. Obviously you should have the manpower, your game is doing well. But then we look into the Thief and WvW forums and your last response to anything can be dated back to 2014. Anywho, Thief trait talk. Gotta find my file.

Hope you all read this, hope we get a red response, and I hope you share your thoughts and opinions with the rest of us. The threads purpose is for you to say what you see on traits and what your stance is on them- are they good, should we change some, are there specific traits that shouldn’t exist or that exist in a state too good too pass? I want to know what you guys think about these.

Many people (like me) can’t read these walls of text on a screen. Any chance of making it easier on the eyes by at least putting spaces between 1-6 points please?

I had to pick out bits as I can only skim read computer texts, but I agree with no.6. I’ve accepted procs, but never been a fan. Playing TSW, a game built entirely round RNG based builds did me in there I think…

Steroid traits. Kinda a fan sorry and my teams quite like them as well

Not sure what you meant by 2) since it seems clogged with a colourful analogy rather than an example. Can you elaborate?

Apart from some improved synergy and some profs neededing traitlines to have bettter “identities” (like warrior), I’m enjoyingthe new system very much.

Tl;DR.

I like the traits the way there are. I have no problem making builds I have fun playing, are they the best? Probably not, but isn’t experimenting half the fun?

Serious Thought.5394:

(I’m going to make a bigger post on Thief and what I would do)

God help us…

Wormed trough your writing; i agree.

Any credibility you might have had was blown immediately by implying that Spotter is a terrible trait. Although, using Necro traits (and Necro shroud traits, at that) to justify complaints about burst is kind of hilarious.

There is a discussion to be had about traits and traitlines and build diversity, but they’re better to have in the actual profession forums where the majority of the people are familiar with the class and can craft focused arguments for why specific things need to be changed/updated/tweaked. Just throwing out a list like this, with all the weird personal biases and poor reading comprehension (your example of a “redundant” trait is actually an example of two traits that compliment each other- the latter gives you more opportunity to proc the former) does nothing to move the actual conversation forward.

You don’t appear to give any compelling arguments on why certain traits are undesirable, apart from personal subjective opinion. I don’t think that personal preference is a good baseline for the sort of discussion you seem to want to have.

Please demonstrate why you think certain traits are ‘bad’ in a reasoned and objective manner.

Sorry for the wall, will edit when I have time. Also can’t find the Thief one, so that’ll have to wait (or I’ll type from scratch when I edit the main).

@Randulf- the main post hit the 5000 letter marker, so I cleaned it up best as I could. Thanks for agreeing on the procs. My pet peeve is seeing that “well, if luck is on your side, you just might possibly in a distant RNGesus elevator apply bleed…otherwise gg, go die”. At steroids I mean, wouldn’t you rather have something other than “enjoy your 150 toughness”? I’m not saying the %damage is annoying or bad, that can stay because usually its tagged onto something else. But… isn’t it more fun and more useful to have a trait that doesn’t have text saying something like “gain 150 toughness for you and your allies”. It’d be better if they added something, but… yea.

@BrotherBelial- will try to provide a tl;dr later. Sorry.

@niae and duka- Um, k/thx?

@Batelle- I didn’t say it was bad. I said I’d rather have something there. I don’t want a trait that literally says “here is a stat stick”. I’m not sure…you … read my post… um. I can’t post in the class specific profession threads because they receive little to NO traffic from reds and reds need to see this. Seriously, find the last time a Red said anything in the Thief forum. I’ll be here tomorrow when you finish. Redundant traits are just that- they are two traits that should just be one. Why do I need to waste two slots to get two effects from the same idea? Meanwhile, Ranger’s trait gives shortbow cooldown, shortbow pierce, damage boost on dodge. In one trait. It doesn’t move the damage boost elsewhere.

@PrettyPixie- Quick Pockets is a wonderful example. You get 3 initiative for swapping your weapon. But as a Thief, and considering its a GM, you’d never pick this. Ever. You are forced into a shortbow to survive, and you have one damage set. You could try to argue two weapons, but then you’d look elsewhere. Another Thief trait allows you to break stun and refill endurance, but provides no way to prevent being chained. Mesmer reflects your cc, Necro fears you, Warrior flat out breaks with stability. Thief, again, gets endurance. Why? Something like evade all incoming abilities for one second would be far superior, and would put it on the line to those 3 mentioned traits, but it won’t happen for reasons unknown to people like me who try to think of a perfectly balanced and engaging game.

Couldn’t find thief file and ended up farming gold (100 gold in 5 hours…new record for me =D).Will go line by line and pick problem traits and such to reduce post length. (before I continue, I had to talk to a guildie who saw my post and didn’t get why I hate stat sticks…guess it’d help if I explain why? The numbers in the game are nearly impossible to calculate (for instance 150 power only increases the Sword Auto on Warriors by 30 damage…) but a percentage is a percentage and is very easy to calculate and thus build around. it is far easier to work with a static concept then one that needs to be constantly calculated imo). This is just what I would change. Not what I think makes it healthy or unhealthy.

Deadly Arts: It only has three problems (technically four)- the rng on poison, the two trap traits, and gaining power for being revealed (but only on the reveal debuff). Make daggers apply poison every X attacks, revamp traps (heavily), and just replace the power trait- even if it says something like “Upon gaining Revealed, your next non-auto-attack-chain skill does 50% bonus damage” then it is so much better.

Crit Strikes- Keen Observer and Ankles shots. That’s it. And both are a matter of opinion rather than actual data, but Keen needs to be 75% hp OR all attacks crit while above 90% hp (which I think is a fantastic concept). Ankle just…no…pistols are bad. Otherwise this is an example of a cohesive and strong trait line ^.^ yaaaay

Shadow Arts: Last Refuge needs to go. Period. There was a thread with over 100 votes if memory serves that said delete this trait. Shadow’s Embrace needs a nerf revert. Cloaked in Shadow’s blind needs to move to Shadow’s Rejuvenation.

Acrobatics: Minors tell me this is a dodge line, but I have a stealth trait. Move the stealth trait (fleet shadow) to the stealth line. Hard to Catch needs to become harder to catch- instead of refilling endurance, do what other classes do and offer a window where we cannot be hit. After all evade line. We are the only class that does not have an invulnerable state (dodging/evasion do not count because other classes have it too) so being cc’d saying "refill endurance and evade incoming attacks for 1 second) is perfect for this line. Upper Hand and Swindler’s Equilibrium should just be together, it makes sense and you’ll see why in the Trickery line.

Trickery: This is the line that is mandatory for a well-rounded and viable dueling Thief build. Make the front two minors baseline and this would be far less necessary. Merge flanking strikes and trickster, merge thrill of the crime and bountiful theft, merge lead attacks and sleight of hand, merge pressure striking and bewildering ambush (into one or the other). Delete Quick Pockets and NEVER look back. So much redundancy and so much necessity. This is a trait line that thieves must take because it makes the class function. More than any other class, because we have no viable ranged dueling utility. Our conditions are burst and do less than Guardians/Eles with their burn builds, can instantly be cleansed by many other classes. And again burst. The second you gap close(open) you win a fight with the Thief class. We have to spend initiative (worse than blowing a cooldown) to get back into range and HOPE you don’t blow one of your far more potent cooldowns like Signet of Stone or Endure Pain or Distortion. Trickery however gives more initiative and a 10 second rip from our steals cooldown. That’s monumental. Without this line, very few (if any) thieves would work. If this line dies and thief is not buffed heavily elsewhere, you might not see many of us left.

Anywho, that’s my take on the traits. I did it quick since I didn’t have a draft saved, I apologize for the poor quality of post.

When you say you want something other than Spotter (group support without spirits being something rangers asked for btw) what do you mean?

Quick Pockets was used by a lot of SD Thieves before the update, I guess they didn’t want to change it (SD is dead now but not because of that – haha feline).

Redundant means something different than you think. Those warrior traits you mentioned would be synergistic.

Redundant- superfluous, unnecessary.
Superfluous- more than enough. My application may be wrong, but I know what it means. Sorry for that though, should be better with picking words.

I mean I want something that isn’t a stat stick. Guardians have a toughness aura, but they have a signet that heals- I was thinking of flipping that or something. Warriors have a power aura- it’d be better if it acted like sunfire cape (look up League of Legends). Spotter on Rangers could give an aoe proc (not rng). I just hate stat sticks because it makes build calculations aggravating. I hate steroids because I pvp a lot, and steroids are….very one dimensional- they give you the desired effect or they do not.

In response to the steroids trait reply, not really. I like how it can strengthen a good stat or make up for a potential gap. Theres good synergy in those traits when applied correctly. Are they fun? Well, sometimes functionality wins out instead.

Thats my wisdom of the day…im going back to bed to die of fatal man flu….

Serious Thought.5394:

I can’t post in the class specific profession threads because they receive little to NO traffic from reds and reds need to see this. Seriously, find the last time a Red said anything in the Thief forum. I’ll be here tomorrow when you finish.

We’ve been told by the forum moderator that devs read the forums that pertain to their area of responsibility. We also know that ANet has a “gag order” policy that means ANet employees will rarely if ever post about things that have not already been decided on (i.e., approved for inclusion). This tells us that dev posts are not a good indicator that a dev is reading posts in a forum. Those facts also tells us that any posts that pertain to the traits of a specific profession are best posted in that profession forum because that’s where the devs responsible are most likely to read them.

Building a taxonomy of trait types using your personal categories is fine, I guess, but doing so in a way that demonstrates your bias is going to generate more push back than it does productive discussion. I’d suggest you look at your wording and delete the hyperbole and personal opinions, find neutral wording to name your categories and then list pros and cons. If you can only think of cons, then say so and list those.

At least some of your complaints about the way specific traits are indicates a lack of understanding of how the game is balanced. There are and should be opportunity costs associated with build choices. Are the opp costs at all choice points great? No, I don’t think so, but some are fine. Any that make players agonize over which to take are great. I see no reference to the value of opportunity costs in your post, though you do complain about having to make choices. That alone is enough to make me question the seriousness of the discussion.

1)Steroids. Never. I don’t mean “gain 20% damage when target is below 50%” or something. I mean “give nearby allies 150 precision”. I want to slam my head into a wall when I read that. Why would I waste a trait for that? Also, “convert 10% of toughness into condi dmg”. No. That’s not only a steroid, its a BIG one. I don’t want to choose between overbearing or weak stat traits. I want something meaningful.

Spotter (the +150 Precision) trait will give the entire party +7% Critical Chance, given how to get 150 precision you need 2 accessories (if precision is minor), 1 amulet (if precision is major) or use a utility slot for a precision signet (those give +180) or Banner of Discipline. That +150 Precision is a big boost and is NOT a waste, it also affects yourself. It’s one of the better traits out there.

The stat boosting traits work much like the potions that do the same. It’s a way to increase your offensive capabilities while speccing for more defensive stats. They gave their uses, just like the potions that work like it.

Stat boost and damage modifier traits are the most widely used traits for dps

I agree that the traits are pretty borked. Half the time you pick entire specializations for a single trait and then pick all the rest of them purely by what sucks the least.

Elementalist is an absolute joke with their trait lines, which are element specific rather than weapon specific. Every Elementalist weapon has every element! Switching between elements is the whole point of the class. Why do the trait lines act as though you are supposed to focus on a specific element? With every other class you get to build your traits for what you’re using while skipping the traits for what you aren’t using, rather than being forced to be bad at half the stuff you can do. And yea, I know, Elementalists are really strong right now so nobody cares if their traits are stupid, but if they ever stop being able to nuke the site from orbit to be sure this might be a problem.

While I agree in many parts, do you want meaningful traits or not?

That’s a very basic, underlying question. Current traits are meaningful, but that is in itself the core of their balance worries, they provide a huge portion of your power, and hence any change to them (or any different selection) massively varies your power level. And if it’s not over 9000, you’ll end up losing.

Well, I also got the feeling that there’s personal bias in your suggestions…

Redundant traits like the warrior “Merciless Hammer” (25% vs stunned foes, -20% cooldowns) and “Unsuscepting Foe” (50% crit chance vs stunned foes):
Merciless hammer is on Discipline (Mandatory traitline for warriors), so I see no problems for warriors to go Berserker Hammer with combining Discipline with Arms trait lines. (before the “Merciless Hammer” was Defense trait line, which pretty much limited it’s use with any other than Defensive builds)

Arms line offers nice Adrenaline gain traits (Berserker’s Fury and Furious), which can be used to fuel the Earthshaker (since Discipline also reduces adrenal skill recharge).
Or you can go full defense with Defense trait line instead of Arms (or both depending on your build).

But then again, all these traits are still subject to changes (that ANet sees fit), since they’re still quite new and have unforeseen effects…

Serious Thought.5394:

I just hate stat sticks because it makes build calculations aggravating. I hate steroids because I pvp a lot, and steroids are….very one dimensional- they give you the desired effect or they do not.

Aaaand this right here is why I’m not taking you seriously. Like Indigo said, your points are not “this is a poorly balanced trait b/c xyz.” Your points are “I dislike these traits for personal reasons ANet please respond and fix them.”

Your points are 100% subjective. I enjoy and use most of the traits you listed, and find no problem with the balance. If you have objective problems with the traits, I would be happy to read them. But the fact that you’re pushing so hard for dev responses on completely subjective issues tells me that your perspective is way skewed on this one.

I’m really really bad at explaining myself without being opinionated, but I’ll give it a shot.

Steroid trait- These aren’t “bad”, they are just very one dimensional/linear. Either it gives a good enough amount of stats to be desired or it does not. On top of that, the only indication you get that anything is happening is with a little icon on your screen’s hotbar of boons/conditions. If (for instance) “Empower” acted like sunfire cape, or spotter gave a chance to proc a mini sigil or air- that’d be different and myaybe just as effective.

Cooldown Reduction: No one said anything about this, and the only reason I put it is so devs have ease of balancing (and because its a bit odd imo…curse my opinionated mentality >.>) because thats the same reason they adjusted venoms on Thief and they stated such.

Redundant Traits: Can’t do it, gotta be opinionated. To me, its odd that you have two traits performing the same function in a different manner taking up two slots. It’s already been demonstrated that adding power and merging power is perfectly fine. If it’s something humongous of course don’t, but if its something like the Hammer+crit on stuns for Warriors ///or/// the cdr on steal+cdr on steal… I have to question it or someone needs to explain it to me. It opens more trait diversity and also adds realistic choices where you don’t have to go search and grab both traits.

Improper Reward: This one was complete opinion, I’ll leave it out.

Mandatory Traits: No one has argued this, and I think all classes have a line that they need. Some more than others, others less than some.

Rng traits: I’d like to see them hold charges that recharge over time instead of rng. For instance sigil of air- you get 1 charge every 5 seconds for a max of 1 charge total; this charge is expended on the next critical hit and recharge starts on expenditure. For traits like Thief daggers apply poison either add the charge system (1 every 1 second, max 3) or make it so all dagger attacks always apply poison.

Conflicting Traits: No one has mentioned this, I will not either.

@Indigo/Kalarchis- how do I make them neutral? I’m really really bad at keeping my mentality out of my posts which is why I have the first line of my signature =/

Serious Thought.5394:

I’m really really bad at explaining myself without being opinionated, but I’ll give it a shot.

- snip -

@Indigo/Kalarchis- how do I make them neutral? I’m really really bad at keeping my mentality out of my posts which is why I have the first line of my signature =/

Pros and cons are going to contain opinion, but root the opinion in fact as much as you can.

“Spotter benefits both myself and several allies by increasing our critical chance, but I prefer traits that result in active rather than passive benefits.” rather than, “I mean “give nearby allies 150 precision”. I want to slam my head into a wall when I read that. Why would I waste a trait for that?”

The former statement offers facts, an alternative and a reason for considering it. Your statement is hyperbole. It also gives the impression that adding to one’s own and allies’ damage potential is bad in and of itself, which is not likely to be received well.

Were you me, you’d also leave off the use of statements like, “Makes it look like no one cared when they read it, and makes us wonder if anyone did in fact read them.” This seems more like an attempt to generate agreement about how badly ANet has handled something rather than an invitation to constructive discussion. How would you expect a reasonable person to react to such a call-out?

I do find the above post more factual than the OP, tbh, and thanks for trying.

To address the above points:

“Steroid” traits – I believe it’s clear after multiple posts that you prefer procs based on taking action rather than behind-the-scenes benefits. However, you’ve also stated opposition to RNG procs elsewhere. Consistency matters. Personally, I’m with those who do not dislike having some options for passive benefits. Mixing up the types of traits available yields a greater likelihood that the different preferences of more players will be catered to. That can’t help but be a good thing.

Mandatory Traits: This is a balance, diversity and opportunity costs issue. What makes build systems both interesting and fair is choice points that require players to think, to make decisions and most importantly, to not get everything they want.

Why? Because many players want to get the most benefits at the least cost. To the degree this is possible, diversity, balance and fairness go out the window. If the best options can all be taken, then that’s what many will do, resulting in even more of a “cookie-cutter” feel to builds. Leaving something that some players really want as a choice leaves open the possibility that others will make different choices and make them work as well or nearly as well. Making an option baseline removes it as a balancing factor and an opportunity cost, and tends to generate even mores sameness that we see now.

As it is now, there are no mandatory lines. although there are lines that efficiency players might feel are mandatory. If a line is that good (i.e., necessary for a highly effective play-style), then the fact that someone has to give up something else that is also desirable to get it is a good thing. not a bad one.

CD Reduction an Redundant Traits: Also balance and opportunity cost issues. If all CD’s are reduced (or left at baseline), then reduction ceases to be a balancing factor and reduction would no longer factor as an opportunity cost. Redundant traits? I think a case could be made whether some of the traits that were not combined are no more powerful than some that were, but that should be done on a case-by-case basis, not on a global one because you cannot globally evaluate the opportunity costs inherent in making those choices.

What I was thinking is maybe remove the % modifiers or converters from trait lines that are not profession specific and adding them to a mastery line so that you can have all these for all your classes. Might even make PvP and PvE easier to balance since they wouldn’t have to split skills because masteries are PvE progression. They could even add the stats that we lost after the spec patch. Traits should be left for things that alter or modify profession specific mechanics and theme.

Heck, they could even add cool down bonuses to masteries for skill types and weapon skills instead of having them on traits.

I agree not everything should be available- but I shouldn’t look into a traitline (Thief again) and see options that I can’t live without. An entire trait line is dedicated to that. All it would take to fix is make the Master Minor base. I said change rng procs to a charge system or make it definite =) it makes sense to me. I’d go and edit my base post but…its so long >.>

My main problem with traits is that they still don’t, directly, relate to each other.

Each traitline should be equal to the others (with equal choices), each individual trait choice (of the 3) should be equally valid and each individual choice should either be about a DPS boost, or a survivability boost, or whatever.

As opposed to the current situation, where they’re all jumbled up.

As long as that was the case, it wouldn’t really matter so much what they were, as nothing would overshadow anything else, or make anything else seem redundant.