Guild Wars 2

Fenrir.3609:

AntiGw.9367:

Fenrir.3609:

You don’t have to run 8 year financial forecasts to realise that there are alternatives to funding a game other than through RNG cash shop.

Can you explain what those alternatives are, and what makes them better than selling random cosmetic items?

I can’t think of any myself.

From a consumer point of view? Well (sticking to non sub options) selling fixed rate items is one obvious alternative. What makes that better than RNG boxes? Clarity for the consumer and the ability for them to make more informed value judgements.

Is that better from a company side stand point? Well as long as people are still willing to pay for the RNG version, probably not.

I’ll have to agree with Fenrir here. From a strictly moral standpoint, I can see why this isn’t a problem. From a consumer view point, I can see where this is a problem.

Consumers shouldn’t stop fighting to get what is the best product they can. By the same token, consumers don’t always know what’s best for them. But in this case, they well may.

Unless of course the amount of money needed to actually run the game and develop it going further requires a greater influx of funds than they were getting just by selling skins.

Fenrir.3609:

AntiGw.9367:

Fenrir.3609:

You don’t have to run 8 year financial forecasts to realise that there are alternatives to funding a game other than through RNG cash shop.

Can you explain what those alternatives are, and what makes them better than selling random cosmetic items?

I can’t think of any myself.

From a consumer point of view? Well (sticking to non sub options) selling fixed rate items is one obvious alternative. What makes that better than RNG boxes? Clarity for the consumer and the ability for them to make more informed value judgements.

Is that better from a company side stand point? Well as long as people are still willing to pay for the RNG version, probably not.

A big problem with fixed prices is the exchange rate of $. In another game I’ve played, the same item had different prices in different countries. That caused players (les Americaines that is) to complain that they had to pay more money for the same item. How do you ensure that an item is priced properly in all countries?

As you can see, such alternatives can really complicate things.

I feel that the solution I suggested has potential. Obviously an ~analysis~ is quite hard considering we don’t have any of their sales numbers, but let me repeat myself.

The idea is that by making a major investment in gem store skins now, they widen the market of those who are willing to purchase skins. If an MMO is healthy, it gains new players and its current players roll alts – both of which offers the potential for ongoing sales from these skins.

Another gain you make here is not driving a portion of you playerbase away with your greed. I got this idea from someone on youtube, who no longer plays. I’m tabbed out of WoW right now, coz I resubbed several hours ago – speaking with my wallet tbh.

And yes, being from a sub background, I’ve always valued ANet’s need for income and have regularly made gem purchases

AntiGw.9367:

A big problem with fixed prices is the exchange rate of $. In another game I’ve played, the same item had different prices in different countries. That caused players (les Americaines that is) to complain that they had to pay more money for the same item. How do you ensure that an item is priced properly in all countries?

As you can see, such alternatives can really complicate things.

There are already fixed rate priced items in the game and localised rates has not proved to be an issue thus far.

All items can be pegged to the dollar or euro rate. So regardless of your local currency, you are paying the same pegged rate as everyone else.

That side is very easily sorted and pretty much a non issue. The real sticking points would be:

1. Would the game be economically viable from the companies perspective with a move to fixed rate. One would imagine so but it is impossible to say without hard data. If not then clearly it is a non starter, but one would have to call into question a business model so reliant upon RNG (outside of pure gambling business models ofc).

2. Setting the fixed rate to be high enough to promote people actually buying the stuff as opposed to just being able to farm for 3 hours and buy it with gold. But low enough not to put people off.

Point 2 is interesting because it shows how “dodgy” the whole RNG model is. ANET could be clearly obfuscating the real average cost of items because they realise that if people could see for themselves that actual average cost, they would realise they are either -

A. Being taken for a ride by a company trying to screw them over, or..
B. The model is simply unsustainable without grossly expensive items.

Neither of which are ideal.

JustTrogdor.7892:

For all of you that want to buy all these skins direct consider this scenario.. They are all on the gem store buy direct. You can’t wait to get your elite new skin. You buy gems with money or (gold that you can earn in game at no cost other than time) get your skin and put it on. You head to LA and look around, everyone is wearing the same skin you have. Suddenly it doesn’t seem so special does it?

I tend to disagree with that statement.
For me at least, exclusivity comes from various armor/weapon/color combinations and over time.
If nobody looks exactly like me, i am a happy camper
You can´t make everything super exclusive, because there will literally nobody walking around with certain skins.
I really wanted the grinning shield skin on Halloween, but refused to get suckered in to the rng. Since then i have seen exactly 0 people having that skin equipped on my server.

On other games i played, where cosmetics were a big part, exclusivity often came after a period of time. Lets take the grinning shield as an example again, if more people got their skin, but decided later that it didn´t fit their overall style, we could see less and less equipped. After a while it would be more exclusive again.

On topic:
Like many others i have met, i haven´t spend a single cent on the gemstore.
Partly because there is nothing i highly desire, partly because i refuse to buy any rng related stuff. On top of that, even if there is stuff i would like to buy from the store, i really don´t want to support a company that is so heavily relying on random rewards in game and in the store.
Another problem for me of course, since i am an altoholic, prices are way to steep to justify a 10 € investment for a single item.

In short, in order for me to invest some real money into this, prices need to come down quite considerably and no rng in the store.

Fenrir.3609:

AntiGw.9367:

A big problem with fixed prices is the exchange rate of $. In another game I’ve played, the same item had different prices in different countries. That caused players (les Americaines that is) to complain that they had to pay more money for the same item. How do you ensure that an item is priced properly in all countries?

As you can see, such alternatives can really complicate things.

There are already fixed rate priced items in the game and localised rates has not proved to be an issue thus far.

All items can be pegged to the dollar or euro rate. So regardless of your local currency, you are paying the same pegged rate as everyone else.

I suspect that it would become more apparent as more items are added to the shop.

I’m going to go ahead and waste my time and say I put my 10 bucks in, got a karka shell and will never buy one of these god forsaken boxes again, put the weapon skins in for 20 bucks and I’ll buy it if its good, but I will never spend money on RNG again.

You got me Anet/NCsoft. You got my 10 dollars and I hate you for it. Grats.

Etna.5026:

I’m going to go ahead and waste my time and say I put my 10 bucks in, got a karka shell and will never buy one of these god forsaken boxes again, put the weapon skins in for 20 bucks and I’ll buy it if its good, but I will never spend money on RNG again.

You got me Anet/NCsoft. You got my 10 dollars and I hate you for it. Grats.

Since you knew the odds are long on getting them, why would you hate someone for you playing the odds. It’s like hating casinos when you go and lose. Of course you lose. The odds are against you. The only person you should be mad at is yourself for going to the casino in the first place.

There is a rare chance to get those skins. Those who like to gamble should buy those things, but those who don’t should vote with their wallets.

AntiGw.9367:

I suspect that it would become more apparent as more items are added to the shop.

But it clearly wouldn’t. Switching to full fixed rate would have zero impact in terms of the issue you are concerned about here. I’m unsure exactly as to why you think it would.

I just wish everyone would stop calling the RNG portion of the game ‘gambling’. It’s not! You buy boxes that are guaranteed to give you in-game items EVERY time you open them. Just like toys in a cereal box. You do not get what you want? Well sit down and eat your cereal.

Gambling means you are at risk to lose your stake (money, chips, pretzel sticks), in other words you are poorer than when you started. In these cases you aren’t. You might not like the ‘toys in the box’, but you still got toys.

Do I agree with RNG…no. I do not, AND I do not support it with my money. However, I do not begrudge those that can afford to buy chests and boxes, and I do not feel a need to be overly protective towards those that want to purchase these items.

Sleepless.1906:

I feel that the solution I suggested has potential. Obviously an ~analysis~ is quite hard considering we don’t have any of their sales numbers, but let me repeat myself.

The idea is that by making a major investment in gem store skins now, they widen the market of those who are willing to purchase skins. If an MMO is healthy, it gains new players and its current players roll alts – both of which offers the potential for ongoing sales from these skins.

Another gain you make here is not driving a portion of you playerbase away with your greed. I got this idea from someone on youtube, who no longer plays. I’m tabbed out of WoW right now, coz I resubbed several hours ago – speaking with my wallet tbh.

And yes, being from a sub background, I’ve always valued ANet’s need for income and have regularly made gem purchases

Ultimately, the decisions about this are decided above the level of the game designers, by people who place the desires of the company’s shareholders above that of the company’s customers. The shareholders want to make more money, the customers want to spend less. When the company can cut costs and increase sales, everyone wins. But when someone in the middle makes the decision to sacrifice profit in the interest of the customer, he will be called upon to explain his actions, and most likely fired and replaced with someone who will not do this.

So, they hire professionals who study the market and formulate plans and project sales figures, and use their recommendations to make decisions. These people will not say “stay away from RNG lotteries because it’s the right thing to do,” they will point out where such strategies have been effective in other games (TOR) and other markets (state lotteries) and predict that these items will produce more profit than other methods of selling the virtual goods to players.

Every time the Powerball or somesuch lottery reaches a very large jackpot, you see huge lines at convenience stores as people rush to buy tickets in hopes of getting a piece of it. An individual or a subculture may refuse to gamble but it’s clear that out culture as a whole is very interested in it, and spends a LOT of money on it.

Instead of focusing on the RNG-based skins, realize that Anet tries to give something to everyone by using a hybrid system where some skins are distributed randomly, others through game play and still others by direct purchase. We don’t have the numbers, but I can assure you that your protests here and ragequits will not overtake the sales of the RNG boxes and cause the company to reconsider their position. Be grateful that you have options, and choose which is right for you.

Not to derail the whole discussion, but I’ve often wondered why it seems to be impossible to increase the quantity and variety of skins offered to the public (via the gem store if necessary) instead of deciding between highly priced one-time purchases or RNG chests.

Again, unless I’m missing something very fundamental, it seems to me that designing a new skin isn’t really that much work (well, not as much as it’s being made out to be) unless the implementation system is radically different from other games (one that immediately springs to mind is Skyrim). If anyone bothered to even glance at the Nexus, you’d see multitudes upon multitudes of fan-made skins, of which a surprisingly large number are equal, if not better the default skins made by the developers.

I’m sure it does take a fair amount of work to come up with one, but I honestly don’t think it’s something that is effectively “if we don’t make $20,000 from this skin, we’ve lost money coming up with the skin” kind of scenario.

On the RNG issue, I think the issue is pretty well laid out – consumers should know that they should not engage in the RNG chests, but ultimately sufficient numbers do to make RNG chests the more profitable venture and as long as that remains the case.. I’ve personally seen people not blink when dumping thousands of dollars to get an item a month earlier than everyone else and RNG is perfect answer (from the company’s perspective) to this demographic.

Lightning.8397:

Not to derail the whole discussion, but I’ve often wondered why it seems to be impossible to increase the quantity and variety of skins offered to the public (via the gem store if necessary) instead of deciding between highly priced one-time purchases or RNG chests.

Again, unless I’m missing something very fundamental, it seems to me that designing a new skin isn’t really that much work (well, not as much as it’s being made out to be) unless the implementation system is radically different from other games (one that immediately springs to mind is Skyrim). If anyone bothered to even glance at the Nexus, you’d see multitudes upon multitudes of fan-made skins, of which a surprisingly large number are equal, if not better the default skins made by the developers.

I’m sure it does take a fair amount of work to come up with one, but I honestly don’t think it’s something that is effectively “if we don’t make $20,000 from this skin, we’ve lost money coming up with the skin” kind of scenario.

On the RNG issue, I think the issue is pretty well laid out – consumers should know that they should not engage in the RNG chests, but ultimately sufficient numbers do to make RNG chests the more profitable venture and as long as that remains the case.. I’ve personally seen people not blink when dumping thousands of dollars to get an item a month earlier than everyone else and RNG is perfect answer (from the company’s perspective) to this demographic.

It takes a long time to do anything with 3d modeling. It’s just hell. I used to alpha test for a company that made 3D graphics clip art for other companies to use…you would not believe the amount of testing that goes for each piece.

For one thing, you have to test it/scale it for every race. You have to try it with different components to try to minimize clipping. Stuff that looks great on a charr, could look like crap on an Asura. Small details like seems and that sort of thing really throw a monkey wrench into things.

Most people who design stuff for Skyrim aren’t designing a 3d object, they’re throwing a map over an existing 3D object. Essentially they’re just retexturing something that already exists.

Creating armor sets is a very different animal.

Very good post. I was happy with GW2 but then things started going bad since the Xmas Minipets, they weren’t a buy once pack like the Halloween set and that was the day when the greed started.

Fast forward to this day, the cash shop is full of limited time items making players feel in a hurry like they have a knife to their throats, Speaking for myself this isn’t how things should be, I think ANet would make more money by making the items permanent ESPECIALLY when the said items can’t be traded.

Scenario: ANet releases 1 week limited time Bow of Awesomeness but Player 1 won’t be able to buy it during that week for a reason or the other BUT will buy it in the future, however since the item was time bombed Player 1 didn’t get his item and ANet didn’t make profit. It’s a loss-loss situation for both.

I’ve played the RNG game in other MMOS before and it failed every time. I once believed ANet was different, I was wrong and mostly disappointed. The cash shop is getting worse everyday and much similar to other F2P MMOS out there. If I wanted to play the same RNG game I would have saved myself the 60$ and keep playing F2P games, after such an experience I won’t buy any future expansion packs it just doesn’t seem worth it.

Vayne.8563:

It takes a long time to do anything with 3d modeling. It’s just hell. I used to alpha test for a company that made 3D graphics clip art for other companies to use…you would not believe the amount of testing that goes for each piece.

For one thing, you have to test it/scale it for every race. You have to try it with different components to try to minimize clipping. Stuff that looks great on a charr, could look like crap on an Asura. Small details like seems and that sort of thing really throw a monkey wrench into things.

Most people who design stuff for Skyrim aren’t designing a 3d object, they’re throwing a map over an existing 3D object. Essentially they’re just retexturing something that already exists.

Creating armor sets is a very different animal.

I get that coming up with completely new armor sets can be very time consuming if 3D modelling is involved. However, using the Skyrim example, there are so many ways you can (using the lingo) create new maps over the current existing 3D objects to create new armor sets without actually throwing everything into the bin and starting over. From experience, just different shades of dyes already can create radically different looks – I think that if they were creative in their reconstruction, they could create a number of sets of armor from essentially the same 3D object – I mean, if people could come up with thousands of different armors from the same 3d object over there, why not here? (on a side note, I’m not graphic design savvy but some of the armor mods there are mad awesome, they look completely different from any base armor available in game so if that can be done… ).

Lightning.8397:

Vayne.8563:

It takes a long time to do anything with 3d modeling. It’s just hell. I used to alpha test for a company that made 3D graphics clip art for other companies to use…you would not believe the amount of testing that goes for each piece.

For one thing, you have to test it/scale it for every race. You have to try it with different components to try to minimize clipping. Stuff that looks great on a charr, could look like crap on an Asura. Small details like seems and that sort of thing really throw a monkey wrench into things.

Most people who design stuff for Skyrim aren’t designing a 3d object, they’re throwing a map over an existing 3D object. Essentially they’re just retexturing something that already exists.

Creating armor sets is a very different animal.

I get that coming up with completely new armor sets can be very time consuming if 3D modelling is involved. However, using the Skyrim example, there are so many ways you can (using the lingo) create new maps over the current existing 3D objects to create new armor sets without actually throwing everything into the bin and starting over. From experience, just different shades of dyes already can create radically different looks – I think that if they were creative in their reconstruction, they could create a number of sets of armor from essentially the same 3D object – I mean, if people could come up with thousands of different armors from the same 3d object over there, why not here? (on a side note, I’m not graphic design savvy but some of the armor mods there are mad awesome, they look completely different from any base armor available in game so if that can be done… ).

Players don’t really want “reskinned” armor. Everyone knows you’re reskinning and using it again. Players want different armor, that really is different..at least most do.

The reskinning of things is one of the things that players will call gaming companies on.

Lightning.8397:

On the RNG issue, I think the issue is pretty well laid out – consumers should know that they should not engage in the RNG chests, but ultimately sufficient numbers do to make RNG chests the more profitable venture and as long as that remains the case..

I’ll submit that some consumers should perhaps not engage in the RNG chests. What all consumers should be doing is assessing their own financial situation and weighing their purchase priorities.

I can afford all the chests I want. I’m in a decent place financially. But I won’t, because I disagree with the practice.

Lightning.8397:

I get that coming up with completely new armor sets can be very time consuming if 3D modelling is involved. However, using the Skyrim example, there are so many ways you can (using the lingo) create new maps over the current existing 3D objects to create new armor sets without actually throwing everything into the bin and starting over. From experience, just different shades of dyes already can create radically different looks – I think that if they were creative in their reconstruction, they could create a number of sets of armor from essentially the same 3D object – I mean, if people could come up with thousands of different armors from the same 3d object over there, why not here? (on a side note, I’m not graphic design savvy but some of the armor mods there are mad awesome, they look completely different from any base armor available in game so if that can be done… ).

Because they’d look like… a word that will be changed to kitten.

Imagine the uproar… completely new models with particle effects for the RNG boxes, an old skin in a different color for the people who don’t want to play the lottery. It would be a waste of time and cause more problems than it solves.

I do wonder why things develop so slowly, but remember when people say “Anet has a staff of over 200 people” that it’s not necessarily 200+ programmers working ten hours a day churning out code. They have long- and short-term plans to work on, bugs to track down, new content to test for new bugs, and are under enormous pressure to produce something for patch day at the end of each month.

I have a limited experience with programming, mostly outdated now, but enough that I know it’s a lot harder than people think. With so many people working on a project of this complexity, there are bound to be conflicts between what they want to do, and what they can do. I accept the idea that they are doing the best job they can and are working to improve the game as a whole, no matter how long it takes.

Villious.8530:

1. Not everyone can “work/grind hard enough”. We have the real life work/grind to put food on the table. Not enough time in the day.

I agree not everyone can “grind hard enough” due to real life obligations. I’m one of those people and I am highly in favor of people not using all their free time to play video games.

However, I don’t see any messages from Anet saying you only have ‘x’ amount of days to earn enough gold for gems. Everyone wants immediate gain but for most people that isn’t likely so they have to work, save and wait.

I want to reach level cap and have the best gear I can so I actually have a better chance of competing in WvW (the green arrow makes you an immediate target most of the time). Unfortunately it will take me a very long time because I have very limited free time. So is it unfair to me because some people can do it in a few days?

Cosmetic items such as skins/mini pets have no value as far as improving stats/game performance. They are account bound so you can’t sell them/trade them. The only value they have is the subjective value the individual places on them.

I don’t get the argument that Anet is greedy. Technically everything after the initial purchase of the game is free. It depends on the value of these items the individual puts on them. You never have to spend real money on gems. Personally I think that is pretty fair considering there is no subscription. If players feel that this ‘greed’ is out of hand they can vote against it by keeping your wallet closed.

I’d actually prefer a monthly subscription with some of these items dropping a bit more in game. But wait! That isn’t fair to the person that has less time to play because others play more and can get these items faster.

Statements that leave me incredulous:

1. You should work hard to enjoy your video game.

2. If you gamble for money and you at least get a payout of pocket lint for each try, it’s not gambling.

3. People want to be unique in a game played by hundreds of thousands of players.

I agree with the OP. GW2 is a fun game, and thankfully I do fine and have a good time playing while completely ignoring the cash shop RNG stuff. But it’s kind of shady to have this Vegas-style system which relies on the old adage “there’s a sucker born every minute.” In reality those suckers can’t always help it.

The concept of “intermittent reinforcer” applies here. A quote from an article to explain it:

…under continuous reinforcement, every time the rat hits the bar, it receives a food pellet. Under intermittent reinforcement, the rat might be required to hit the bar 50 times to get the pellet, or the rat might be reinforced only once every five minutes, or the rat might be reinforced only when you are in the room, or in accordance with some other pattern, but not every time. Any pattern of reinforcement other than continuous reinforcement is a form of intermittent reinforcement.

The fact that intermittent reinforcement produces persistence or resistance to extinction is an important insight for parents. Parents try to discourage a child from throwing tantrums, but some parents tire under the onslaught of the child’s rage and “cave in” by reinforcing the child. In effect, they are putting the child on an intermittent reinforcement schedule. This makes the tantrums harder to stop in the future.

It’s pretty much a proven psychological condition, and there is money to be made by those who choose to take advantage of it.

Gibson.4036:

3. People want to be unique in a game played by hundreds of thousands of players.

Some people want to be unique in a game played by billions of players. It’s called real life.

dinominator.9862:

Gibson.4036:

3. People want to be unique in a game played by hundreds of thousands of players.

Some people want to be unique in a game played by billions of players. It’s called real life.

And has infinitely more variables to work with.

But thanks for setting your apple next to my orange.

Gibson.4036:

dinominator.9862:

Gibson.4036:

3. People want to be unique in a game played by hundreds of thousands of players.

Some people want to be unique in a game played by billions of players. It’s called real life.

And has infinitely more variables to work with.

But thanks for setting your apple next to my orange.

If you say so.

Mourningcry.9428:

I’ve yet to see a single such proposition backed up with any type of financial analysis.

We’re not privy to ANet’s sales figures, so a financial analysis consisting of anything other than pure speculation is impossible. But alternatives have been suggested.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Do people get all bothered about card packs? That’s what RNG boxes are. RNG boxes are not slot machines, Texas-hold-‘em tables, lotteries or raffles. They’re kittening baseball/M:tG cards.

If you don’t like RNG boxes (as I don’t), then don’t buy them (as I won’t). Posts like these will not change the minds of the monetization crew at ANet. More importantly, it won’t change the minds of the people buying the RNG boxes — and they’re why these things keep showing up.

And as far as people who oppose certain positions, you’re over-analyzing. Many posters post in opposition for one simple reason. It’s ingrained in the human ego to want to think that we’re right, and nothing makes people feel more right than pointing out where others are wrong. This is nothing new, and the whole “Whatever happened to gamers looking out for gamers?” is remarkably disingenuous for suggesting that it was ever different. There are, of course, exceptions to everything, but as a general trend, no. Now, I’m not condoning the behavior, but the pseudo psycho-analysis is wrong.

Well there is a big difference between real world items and in game items. There’s simply no way to personally bind an item to you. The biggest complaint i have on the RNG boxes is just that.

JustTrogdor.7892:

I don’t get the argument that Anet is greedy. Technically everything after the initial purchase of the game is free. It depends on the value of these items the individual puts on them. You never have to spend real money on gems. Personally I think that is pretty fair considering there is no subscription. If players feel that this ‘greed’ is out of hand they can vote against it by keeping your wallet closed.

I’d actually prefer a monthly subscription with some of these items dropping a bit more in game. But wait! That isn’t fair to the person that has less time to play because others play more and can get these items faster.

Everything after the initial purchase of the game is not free, not buy any stretch of the imagination. Earning that kind of gold to buy limited one time items is putting a time limit on how much gold you can earn before the items go away. In almost every case, you simply cannot earn enough gold to keep up with these special offers, it’s physically impossible. There will be plenty of people boasting that they can earn 100g a week, but the fact of the matter is, it’s not happening on any grand scale, if it were the economy would look entirely different.

On the greed statement, yes it can very well be viewed as a greedy practice since there are plenty of other ways to offer this stuff. Their goal has always been to make things accessible for all players, that’s not what we are seeing here. Limited time items demand cash payments by most of the games player base, even worse, getting hooked into the amount of gold it would take just to RNG to the item you wanted, would blow most peoples earnings since release.

Amazing post, thank you, and very true.

3 or 4 topics open not including the ones that got merged and still no response on RNG or a fix for it. Keep making our opinions heard, they can’t ignore their customers forever

I would pay 10 dollars a pop for a skin I wanted, but I won’t spend even spend 150 gems converted from gold on a chance for an item.

Gibson.4036:

Statements that leave me incredulous:

1. You should work hard to enjoy your video game.

2. If you gamble for money and you at least get a payout of pocket lint for each try, it’s not gambling.

3. People want to be unique in a game played by hundreds of thousands of players.

I agree that there is no requirent to work hard to enjoy the game and as a self labeled casual player I don’t feel the need and I enjoy the game. I don’t get:

1. I have to spend more money to play the game. False gems are technically free since they can be bought for in game gold.

2. Anet is greedy because they are trying to make more money. Actually Anet is a subsidiary of NCsoft. They have a huge market share in Korea and shares are traded via the Korean exchange. So I would be willing to wager that many shareholders are probably in game as we speak and disagree that NCsoft should not try to make as much money as possible.

3. But it isn’t fair because other games do this, other games do that, WoW does this but GW2 doesn’t. GW1 did this but GW2 doesn’t. I always thought that 2 doesn’t = 1.

At the end of the day if you have only played 60 hours you have probably gotten your money worth at $1.00 per hour. If everything is so terrible there are several things players can do among others. Just don’t play anymore. Spend more time playing the MMO that does everything you want. Keep playing but don’t spend money in the gem store to cast your vote against the way it is set up. Or continue to complain here with a low probability of anything changing.

I have seen it claimed here many times that most players want ‘X’. People posting here, blogging, so and so the big time player made a video saying ‘this’ etc. are most likely a very minuscule percentage of total players. It would be extremely difficult to back up that claim without access to total player feedback.

Generally voluntary feedback is often skewed. The pattern most often seen is that those leaving feedback are usual very happy or very unhappy. People who are content or indifferent often don’t bother to leave feedback, do satisfaction surveys and such.
This is why you often see surveys on a purchase receipt that say, “Do our survey for a chance to win X amount of money.” They are trying to get those who are in the middle, yet highest percentage of customers, to leave feedback since they are the majority.

Then you toss in a probably high percentage of those that never come to these forums much less comment and it is even more difficult to assess how most players feel.

munkiman.3068:

Everything after the initial purchase of the game is not free, not buy any stretch of the imagination. Earning that kind of gold to buy limited one time items is putting a time limit on how much gold you can earn before the items go away. In almost every case, you simply cannot earn enough gold to keep up with these special offers, it’s physically impossible. There will be plenty of people boasting that they can earn 100g a week, but the fact of the matter is, it’s not happening on any grand scale, if it were the economy would look entirely different.

I don’t think Trogdor was suggesting that all gem shop items are free, maybe he was, but I interpreted his comment as being directed toward content updates, which are 100% free. Even if I’m wrong, the option to buy items with real money does not in any way translate to ‘you must spend money on this game.’ So yes, everything in the game is free, and new free things are being added, at no cost to the players. The cash shop is not free, of course it’s not. Are you suggesting that the cash shop items should be free in a no-subscription game model with regular, free content updates?

In regard to earning enough gold to convert to gems and buy gem store items, I read your argument as assuming that a players waits until a gem store update occurs, then grinds like crazy to get enough gold to convert to gems and buy the item before it’s removed. In actuality, if you play the game you should be making gold fairly often and will be sitting on quite a pile of it when a gem store item you like comes out. Maybe you grind a little more to afford it, but I’ve never come across a situation you describe where it’s physically impossible to make enough gold in time to purchase an item I like.

Mourningcry.9428:

darkace.8925:

Mourningcry.9428:

I’ve yet to see a single such proposition backed up with any type of financial analysis.

We’re not privy to ANet’s sales figures, so a financial analysis consisting of anything other than pure speculation is impossible. But alternatives have been suggested.

Please see my post above. I’m not asking for sales, revenue or growth projections. All I’m asking for is some analysis that at least shows some thought about the possible financial implications of some of these alternatives being suggested.

I was called out on this earlier, and replied.

Maybe reading previous posts, in the same thread, might be a good idea? But pretty much like those alternative posts, you’re too lazy, and just post away with out even thinking. No worries, I’m used to it.

I’m still wondering how a speculative analysis would be worth much. We could speculate many options and be so far off on the numbers that it wouldn’t even mean anything. It doesn’t seem lazy to not do it, it just seems like a waste of time.

munkiman.3068:

JustTrogdor.7892:

I don’t get the argument that Anet is greedy. Technically everything after the initial purchase of the game is free. It depends on the value of these items the individual puts on them. You never have to spend real money on gems. Personally I think that is pretty fair considering there is no subscription. If players feel that this ‘greed’ is out of hand they can vote against it by keeping your wallet closed.

I’d actually prefer a monthly subscription with some of these items dropping a bit more in game. But wait! That isn’t fair to the person that has less time to play because others play more and can get these items faster.

Everything after the initial purchase of the game is not free, not buy any stretch of the imagination. Earning that kind of gold to buy limited one time items is putting a time limit on how much gold you can earn before the items go away. In almost every case, you simply cannot earn enough gold to keep up with these special offers, it’s physically impossible. There will be plenty of people boasting that they can earn 100g a week, but the fact of the matter is, it’s not happening on any grand scale, if it were the economy would look entirely different.

But you don’t have to have those items to play. I don’t need to have a $500 watch to be able to tell time. I can buy a $60 watch and use it as long as it still functions. If I see it is available for a limited time I have a few choices. Work more to get it, spend expendable income I already have, or simply decide it isn’t worth the money and or time.

If this were a subscription based game you would have to pay to keep playing. You would have to decide is it worth the money? You would not have a choice aside from paying the monthly fee or trying to log in and finding an error message that your subscription has ended.

I’ve said it in other MMO forums, and I’ll reiterate here. This will fit in nicely with the quote provided in the OP. When and why did we feel obligated to assume the best financial needs of the gaming company? Unless we’ve all got stock in Nexon- last time I checked I didn’t; that’s the job of the company and publisher. I see all of this talk about alternatives and better options, but we have no right, and it’s doing us no good speculating all of this crap about how they make their money. That is not our job as consumers of the product…if you want to put it in equally perfunctory terms. Spouting all of this nonsense about what’s right/wrong for the company is getting us nowhere, because we’re acknowledging our uselessness as their pawns. Capitalism is not a new term, and we know that even if millions suffer and a dime is made…it will prevail.

As consumers, we should be addressing what we can as players of the game. I couldn’t give two kittens if Anet was dead broke and have expended all opportunities to bring the bacon. As long as I can play the game in the way that suits me and my peers the best, I am content. Obviously the greed is a large factor of that, but we’re not going to be able to stop it. I am all for trying a petition to inform the impulsive pawns that keep reinforcing this atrocity, but please stop indirectly advocating the greed by acting like you know what’s good for Anet rather than yourself as a gamer.

Facepunch.5710:

munkiman.3068:

Everything after the initial purchase of the game is not free, not buy any stretch of the imagination. Earning that kind of gold to buy limited one time items is putting a time limit on how much gold you can earn before the items go away. In almost every case, you simply cannot earn enough gold to keep up with these special offers, it’s physically impossible. There will be plenty of people boasting that they can earn 100g a week, but the fact of the matter is, it’s not happening on any grand scale, if it were the economy would look entirely different.

I don’t think Trogdor was suggesting that all gem shop items are free, maybe he was, but I interpreted his comment as being directed toward content updates, which are 100% free. Even if I’m wrong, the option to buy items with real money does not in any way translate to ‘you must spend money on this game.’ So yes, everything in the game is free, and new free things are being added, at no cost to the players. The cash shop is not free, of course it’s not. Are you suggesting that the cash shop items should be free in a no-subscription game model with regular, free content updates?

In regard to earning enough gold to convert to gems and buy gem store items, I read your argument as assuming that a players waits until a gem store update occurs, then grinds like crazy to get enough gold to convert to gems and buy the item before it’s removed. In actuality, if you play the game you should be making gold fairly often and will be sitting on quite a pile of it when a gem store item you like comes out. Maybe you grind a little more to afford it, but I’ve never come across a situation you describe where it’s physically impossible to make enough gold in time to purchase an item I like.

As more players pitch in gold for gems the cost to “earn” these items continues to climb, keeping up with this inflated rate over time is what i’m talking about. You could easily blow your entire earnings on these RNG boxes and have very little to show for it. Down the road, when gold to gems hits a 4 or 5 to 100 ratio, you’d be even further behind. It’s a very straightforward system to keep these gem shop items out of reach for players only willing to use in game gold to purchase stuff, it’s really quite clever.

No it doesn’t “force players to spend money” but every time new content is provided in the gem shop, players will get to the point of not having a viable choice other than to spend money on those new shinies.

TheRudeDude.1596:

i really don´t want to support a company that is so heavily relying on random rewards in game and in the store.

Do keep in mind the rng stuff is cosmetic, you can convert in-game currency to cash shop currency, there is no subscription fee, and we’ve been given a ton of content for free.

I’m not going to speak for anyone else, but while I hate the rng boxes in the gem shop, they’re not so egregious as to make me forget all the great stuff ANet has done/is doing with this game.

Vayne.8563:

Since you knew the odds are long on getting them, why would you hate someone for you playing the odds. It’s like hating casinos when you go and lose. Of course you lose. The odds are against you. The only person you should be mad at is yourself for going to the casino in the first place.

There is a rare chance to get those skins. Those who like to gamble should buy those things, but those who don’t should vote with their wallets.

That’s part of the problem; we don’t know the odds. The odds in casino games are readily available. The odds of getting a weapon skin from a GW2 rng box aren’t. “Rare” is too vague. I might consider 1 in 10 rare while you might consider 1 in 10,000 rare. If players at least knew the odds of getting item X, they would better be able to calculate the risk/reward and make a fully informed decision.

Borked.6824:

Capitalism is not a new term, and we know that even if millions suffer and a dime is made…it will prevail.

Oh boy…

Dog.1472:

Anet is starting to feel more and more like that guy in a trench coat standing in an alley that wants you to try your luck at finding the cup with a coin under it.

This is probably the most true statement I have read. I have stopped buying RNG items and will never purchase another. I’ll purchase gems, but only for flat rate services/items that I know what I’m getting. It is simply too unrewarding for me, personally, to buy into those chests.

Unfortunately, if the business model is working for them then I don’t see it ever stopping. Which is a shame…

darkace.8925:

That’s part of the problem; we don’t know the odds. The odds in casino games are readily available. The odds of getting a weapon skin from a GW2 rng box aren’t. “Rare” is too vague. I might consider 1 in 10 rare while you might consider 1 in 10,000 rare. If players at least knew the odds of getting item X, they would better be able to calculate the risk/reward and make a fully informed decision.

This is one issue regarding RNG I agree with. If people are paying cash they should disclose the odds to allow the consumer to assess risk v reward.

Vayne.8563:

Do you know the difference between baseball cards and this?

No one knows when looking at someone else on the street exactly what baseball cards they got. But everyone can see that you have a fused greatsword. lol

Yeah, but M:tG cards can provide a better chance to actually win the game. Baseball cards can be sold for lots of real money to collectors. I’d think that either of those conditions applying to MMO lock boxes (PW, I’m looking at you!) would be a lot worse than cosmetic items in a video game.

munkiman.3068:

Well there is a big difference between real world items and in game items. There’s simply no way to personally bind an item to you. The biggest complaint i have on the RNG boxes is just that.

I’ve seen posts in this thread saying that people made gold by selling stuff from the SS boxes. That means not everything is bound.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’ve seen posts in this thread saying that people made gold by selling stuff from the SS boxes. That means not everything is bound.

Yep I bought I think 10 boxes and everything I got was some kind of mat I think. I’m fairly new so I noticed they were high level. I wasn’t sure what they were for or what they did so I sold them on the TP for some decent coin. They were all bought up with half an hour.

I’m not complaining because I decided they were worth the risk for me. I would have been much more unhappy if the chest was empty or it was a bunch of account bound stuff I couldn’t use.

munkiman.3068:

As more players pitch in gold for gems the cost to “earn” these items continues to climb, keeping up with this inflated rate over time is what i’m talking about. You could easily blow your entire earnings on these RNG boxes and have very little to show for it. Down the road, when gold to gems hits a 4 or 5 to 100 ratio, you’d be even further behind. It’s a very straightforward system to keep these gem shop items out of reach for players only willing to use in game gold to purchase stuff, it’s really quite clever.

No it doesn’t “force players to spend money” but every time new content is provided in the gem shop, players will get to the point of not having a viable choice other than to spend money on those new shinies.

Well I see your argument now I suppose, I just disagree. I guess items like weapon skins and minis are technically content, but I see them as little bonuses outside of the game itself. Are you insinuating that ANet knows that people can become obsessed about having every limited time and their exploiting that to make money? If that’s the argument, then I guess I would say the player is at fault if they can’t control themselves enough to not spent lots of cash on rolls of the dice.

I see a fantastic game, better than any pay to play game I’ve played in the past, and there’s no subscription fee. If the price for that is that when I’ve really gotta have a limited time cosmetic item, I may be too short on in game gold and have to drop ten bucks, fine. If another aspect of that is that some items will just be out of reach because of the RNG and my unwillingness to spend more, then I’m fine with that, too.

JustTrogdor.7892:

But you don’t have to have those items to play. I don’t need to have a $500 watch to be able to tell time. I can buy a $60 watch and use it as long as it still functions. If I see it is available for a limited time I have a few choices. Work more to get it, spend expendable income I already have, or simply decide it isn’t worth the money and or time.

If this were a subscription based game you would have to pay to keep playing. You would have to decide is it worth the money? You would not have a choice aside from paying the monthly fee or trying to log in and finding an error message that your subscription has ended.

This is the sort of defense of this practice i see a lot on here. It’s not about having to have the items, it’s about wanting to have them. Comparing real life luxury items, with in game items is really a bit silly, don’t you think?

The Sims is an extremely popular game because it gives players stuff for just playing, lots and lots of stuff. People continue buying these content packs to support more new stuff, and on and on. So they are actually getting this stuff at what they feel is an incredible value since they enjoy the content. That’s kinda the point, you don’t need to get this stuff, you can simply buy the base game and play it, never purchasing any of the new stuff. That’s just not the case here, not with these RNG items, paying for a chance at a new item is and will always be a crappy practice in my eyes. Sell me the content or don’t offer it. Playing is always optional, negating anything after as a required processes.

Borked.6824:

I’ve said it in other MMO forums, and I’ll reiterate here. This will fit in nicely with the quote provided in the OP. When and why did we feel obligated to assume the best financial needs of the gaming company? Unless we’ve all got stock in Nexon- last time I checked I didn’t; that’s the job of the company and publisher. I see all of this talk about alternatives and better options, but we have no right, and it’s doing us no good speculating all of this crap about how they make their money. That is not our job as consumers of the product…if you want to put it in equally perfunctory terms. Spouting all of this nonsense about what’s right/wrong for the company is getting us nowhere, because we’re acknowledging our uselessness as their pawns. Capitalism is not a new term, and we know that even if millions suffer and a dime is made…it will prevail.

As consumers, we should be addressing what we can as players of the game. I couldn’t give two kittens if Anet was dead broke and have expended all opportunities to bring the bacon. As long as I can play the game in the way that suits me and my peers the best, I am content. Obviously the greed is a large factor of that, but we’re not going to be able to stop it. I am all for trying a petition to inform the impulsive pawns that keep reinforcing this atrocity, but please stop indirectly advocating the greed by acting like you know what’s good for Anet rather than yourself as a gamer.

It’s all about self-interest. I like the game. I want to see the game grow. I’d like to see more content for the game. If I’m not interested in the company, then I don’t get the things I want. I think that’s pretty straight forward.

It’s not like it was eight years ago where there were very few MMOs competing with each other. In order for a company to compete TODAY, then they have to be able to provide constant or near constant content updates. The more money they have the more people they can hire, the more content I get.

Now, some people love to go game to game to game, but I’m not one of them. Therefore, it’s in my best interest AS A CONSUMER to support the company.

Let’s say I arrange a boycott and get everyone to stop patronizing the gem store. Let’s say enough people participated to hurt the company. Great. Now the company changes its practices. It yields to popular demand. It makes less money and does it produce the same number of upgrades? The same quality upgrades? Are you saying more money to invest back into the game won’t equal a better game?

The question I have is how do you draw the line in an MMO between you the consumer and what the company makes?

Because without the extra content, no one plays this game and we can all go onto the next game.

Which is fine for some people, but not so fine for those who like it here.

munkiman.3068:

Mourningcry.9428:

Please see my post above. I’m not asking for sales, revenue or growth projections. All I’m asking for is some analysis that at least shows some thought about the possible financial implications of some of these alternatives being suggested.

I was called out on this earlier, and replied.

Maybe reading previous posts, in the same thread, might be a good idea? But pretty much like those alternative posts, you’re too lazy, and just post away with out even thinking. No worries, I’m used to it.

I’m still wondering how a speculative analysis would be worth much. We could speculate many options and be so far off on the numbers that it wouldn’t even mean anything. It doesn’t seem lazy to not do it, it just seems like a waste of time.

Fine. How’s this? A lot of alternatives center around the idea of outright, fixed price sales of items. And some even want to increase the number of these items. Great.

Question. What’s the price and why?

Ya, seems like a great idea until you start getting into the details. Pricing methodology is not trival. Do you think it’s arbitrary that the new loot boxes are priced @ 150 gems, and that a bundle of them is also avaialble for 1200gems?

Do any of these kind of alternatives people list even bother to offer an explanation of how they’d go about pricing the items? Nope.

Quite frankly, one might argue that that may be a “waste of time”.

And ANet takes one square between the eyes.

@Maz
Thanks for that. It sums up my feelings on what has become of the Gem Shop pretty succinctly. I’ve always been a little miffed at the pricing, but not so much that I ever felt I was being disadvantaged. It was just over-priced, like most things today. But it’s the gambling — the kittening gambling — that really irks me.

munkiman.3068:

This is the sort of defense of this practice i see a lot on here. It’s not about having to have the items, it’s about wanting to have them. Comparing real life luxury items, with in game items is really a bit silly, don’t you think?

No, I don’t. I see no difference at all in the purchase of real life luxury item and a virtual luxury item. And cosmetic skins are just that, luxury items. I don’t like the rng system any more than you do, but let’s not pretend these cosmetic skins are required to enjoy the game.

tolunart.2095:

Because they’d look like… a word that will be changed to kitten.

Imagine the uproar… completely new models with particle effects for the RNG boxes, an old skin in a different color for the people who don’t want to play the lottery. It would be a waste of time and cause more problems than it solves.

I do wonder why things develop so slowly, but remember when people say “Anet has a staff of over 200 people” that it’s not necessarily 200+ programmers working ten hours a day churning out code. They have long- and short-term plans to work on, bugs to track down, new content to test for new bugs, and are under enormous pressure to produce something for patch day at the end of each month.

I have a limited experience with programming, mostly outdated now, but enough that I know it’s a lot harder than people think. With so many people working on a project of this complexity, there are bound to be conflicts between what they want to do, and what they can do. I accept the idea that they are doing the best job they can and are working to improve the game as a whole, no matter how long it takes.

Actually, no. If you are a fan of Skyrim Nexus, you’d see that the fan made armors are not just reskinned/recoloured versions of the base armor, but have evolved to a point where some of the beautiful armor sets are not even remotely close to any base armor in game. I don’t have the technical knowledge to really look into the specifics, but if these armor sets are created as a map over existing 3D objects (I’m just requoting lingo here) that a guy/girl at home can come up with that during his/her spare time..

In GW2 we already have dyes to play around with in game, so recolours are a no-go. Even particles are not added, I for one would be happy to see more armor sets/weapons added to the game. Again, the creative redesign I’m thinking is more along how different inscriptions/etchings can be made into the armor or a play on the look of the material (darkened/grooved), or rearrangement of pockets/greaves etc rather than reproducing the same armor but in .. red.

I imagine it wouldn’t be too difficult for Anet to hold a contest for armor set designs based on specific parameters (i.e. something the existing 3D model can work with) with game gems as prizes so Anet is not out anything at all. They can then just work these armor sets into the game, give one complimentary set to the designer FOC, and sell the same on the gem store before releasing it to the general public … 6 months down. That way, you pay for the privilege of having exclusive armor for 6 months, but everyone gets it eventually. Win – win.

darkace.8925:

munkiman.3068:

This is the sort of defense of this practice i see a lot on here. It’s not about having to have the items, it’s about wanting to have them. Comparing real life luxury items, with in game items is really a bit silly, don’t you think?

No, I don’t. I see no difference at all in the purchase of real life luxury item and a virtual luxury item. And cosmetic skins are just that, luxury items. I don’t like the rng system any more than you do, but let’s not pretend these cosmetic skins are required to enjoy the game.

I agree with most of what you said, but you worded that last line incorrectly. They are not required to be SUCCESSFUL in the game, but whether or not they are required to enjoy the game is 100% subjective. For some players, aesthetics are a big part of a game and if they find an aesthetic they desire for their character and have no valid way of attaining that item, it can indeed kill their enjoyment of the game.

It would be like a raider being told there is a raid in the game and they have a random chance of getting to play it. You might be thinking “That’s different. That’s actually playing!”. No, it isn’t. That’s what a raider enjoys doing. Aesthetics is what others may enjoy. The way you are thinking about aesthetics, I am thinking about that raid. Me being able to enter that instance doesn’t affect my enjoyment in any way, shape or form, so I wouldn’t care if it was RNG.

Anet added this RNG in with super low chances knowing full well that it would kill the enjoyment of the game for certain individuals. That’s impossible to deny. But it’s that same fact that brings in so much money for them- those people are going to spend spend spend (if they can) to get those items to increase their own enjoyment.

They know those players want their next hit, and Anet is the only provider for them.