Guild Wars 2

thisolderhead.5127:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

thisolderhead.5127:

“If Anet was really after cash sales from the shop, they’d introduce pay to win options like many other games.”

There is a (n often direct) path from real money to the highest stat items in the game, it is pay to win already. Fortunately most of the players seem to be poor/cheap mwhahahahaha.

Or just unwilling to spend on it when there’s a method of getting there less impactful to their wallets

Though I’m not quite sure I see “pay to win” here . . . sure you can burn a bunch of cash, into Gems, into Gold . . . into items. But most of those items are mostly readily accessible in other ways. Except Legendaries, which is more “pay to look awesome/silly”.

Ah – I see, nothing I was referring to was exclusively P2W, just that cash to domination would be viable for a decent/good player.

And that’s another strange thing: a player good enough to take advantage of that is probably good enough to get by without it. A player bad enough to need an edge by buying it probably isn’t going to be helped by it.

Vayne.8563:

Proof? Because I don’t spend money on the game and play it just fine. This kind of conspiracy theory is the worst kind of conspiracy theory. One that appeals to fear in people without having a shred of evidence to back it up.

I would hardly call a corporation taking actions to increase their own profits a “conspiracy theory.” More like common sense. The only question is what the business strategy is.

Its is an ethical requirement that a company be profitable (if you are a director) so to suggest a conspiracy theory is a bit rich when it is the job/responsibility of the staff to make some money.

In civil law most countries only require evidence on the balance of likelihood – not “beyond reasonable doubt”… so many “you can’t prove that” arguments, so little need under the eyes of most laws.

Anyone not paying money to the gem store is a free loader, paying gamers are still subsidising your game play, I still think paying customers are better than you.

Three disjointed points to go into the weekend, as where I am its time for beers.

I tend to agree with most of the OP. I sense that the problem is actually that Arenanet aren’t being honest with themselves as to how far recent changes actually stray from the promise the game seemed to offer. This is the best MMO on the market and could be a long term, sustainable hit, but it sometimes seems like the developers don’t know what to do with that success and that potential.

The game, it’s systems and it’s core design philosophy all lend themselves to a game that can simultaneously appeal to large swaths of the gaming populace, from casual to elite, from occasional to daily play. One thing that excited me about the game was that there were so many ways with in this framework that they could scale content to allow development time spent trying to appeal to the hardcore to also provide content for the casual. However, now it seems they want to make the all to common mistake of chasing after the fickle needs of the nomadic, game hopping elite at the cost of the other 95% of their players.

It just doesn’t make much sense.

I do take issue with the OP on dailies. There is enough choice to support many playstyles and characters of all levels. Today, for instance, you can do the Shiverspeaks Events and Ascalonian Kills in newb zones if you wish, but with each region also containing zones pretty high up the level range.

My only reservation about the dailies is that I’m finding it’s very easy to become so focused on efficiently completing dailies that you stop playing the game in a natural manner. Running around with a checklist of stuff to do detracts from immersion and exploration and eventually people are going to get really sick of the daily routine, even with efforts to change the mix every day.

I don’t know what the solution to that is, but it is something I’m worried about and the dailies have started to detract from my personal game play in noticeable ways which has me even more worried.

Now, this is just my personal impression, but with most of the design decisions that have made me cringe since launch, I just can’t shake the feeling that some developers are more worried about the game they are working an being perceived as “hardcore” by their peers in the profession, rather than a casual friendly game. Fostering this impression is the number of times they’ve decided to design to the elite, even when the game offered ready solutions for difficulty scaling that would allow the new content to appeal to a wide range of players.

There is just no reason for so much time being spent on content that is artificially and needlessly rendered exclusionary.

All those developers in the industry teasing you for having a casual friendly game are really just wishing they had as big a hit on their hands as you have with GW2. Put the egos away and make the game that advances a new paradigm for MMOs, rather than retreating back to the safe confines of the old paradigm!

thisolderhead.5127:

Anyone not paying money to the gem store is a free loader, paying gamers are still subsidising your game play, I still think paying customers are better than you.

Actually, not quite.

The subtle reality is that your so-called “free loaders” are providing a service to the game company. They are providing “user-generated content” that makes the game more attractive and entices “big spenders” to spend liberally. In exchange, the game company provides them “free” entertainment.

Vayne.8563:

What did he expect? Flowers?

You know what… I had this long post all typed out in response to Martin (and arenanet in general…). It had words like ‘gestapo’ and ‘north korea’ and such but then I realized that it’s probably a bit harsh, and, it will just get moder… erm, ignored, most probably. In my opinion, ofc.

No, you are right, critic shouldn’t have expected flowers. If he did, shame on him. I can imagine that, if I* took the time to write up the OP that I* may be forgiven to expect an honest and sincere reply to to my* (and any remaining ex-GW1 following the game still has) trust issues by someone like Gaile or Collin. Surely not flowers.

*If I was him, in my opinion, ofc.

Vayne.8563:

We want to change the way people view combat. Nothing about grinding for achievements. Nothing about grinding for gear. Nothing about vertical progression.

- I see it now. They wanted to make combat and heart quests non-grindy by design. It has worked too. I wonder if I was the only one who was confused by this statement thinking there would not be grind in the game (as there wasn’t in Guild Wars).

Still it’s undeniable that having to complete content repeatedly for dozens of times is grind by design and fractal relics are good example of this. Players are also locked out of content (Guild missions) unless their guild has earned required large number of influence points. Going through the hoops to earn laurels every day is another questionable way. They are really pressing the border of grind with these decisions. I’m afraid of what future may hold.

Zenith.6403:

Vayne.8563:

We want to change the way people view combat. Nothing about grinding for achievements. Nothing about grinding for gear. Nothing about vertical progression.

- I see it now. They wanted to make combat and heart quests non-grindy by design. It has worked too. I wonder if I was the only one who was confused by this statement thinking there would not be grind in the game (as there wasn’t in Guild Wars).

People keep saying there wasn’t grind in Guild Wars but there really was. Really really. Am I the only person remembering “chest runs” for Wisdom? The sheer piles of lockpicks used up trying to raise Luck? The time devoted to turning Balthazar Faction into Zaishen Keys to get a crack at the chest?

critickitten.1498:

This game no longer feels like a game that “takes everything I love about GW1”, nor a game that encourages me to “play the way I want to”.

For what is worth, Critickitten, you are not alone in your stance that this game does not take everything we loved about GW. We, those that agree, have not all left Tyria [250 years later]. Some of us hope to see the magic of the original Prophecies [all the way through] Winds of Change come to this new ‘sequel.’ Some of us quietly hope for an announcement for a GW3, a true heir to GW whilst others of us accept that a golden age, and the years of enjoyment in it, are gone. If you must go, go in peace, for you will receive some [goodwill] from GW Faithful but less from the populations we’ve inherited from elsewhere.

If you would like to reiminisce about the good old times. Look me up. We’ll talk
Monk Anchorwind.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

People keep saying there wasn’t grind in Guild Wars but there really was. Really really. Am I the only person remembering “chest runs” for Wisdom? The sheer piles of lockpicks used up trying to raise Luck? The time devoted to turning Balthazar Faction into Zaishen Keys to get a crack at the chest?

- I make the difference between grind by design (e.g. you must repeatedly complete fractals to get relics) and grind as voluntary behavior, like choosing to run chests for money you could have by many other means. Important thing about Guild Wars was that there was no grind for power until very late at the game’s life cycle (skill power based on title). Adding new currencies for new activities and rewards effectively makes it so that power gain is exclusive to that content type. Scaling up numbers means that content has to be run repeatedly. There’s the thing that causes grind.

Raijjn.8256:

let me add my 2 cents in here…

first and foremost, there’s something that all of you have failed to understand. Guild wars 1 was a game, guild wars 2 is NOT a game, it’s not here for your entertainment. Guild wars 2 is a business.. it’s entire design is centered around creating your need to spend real money on it. THAT’s the bottom line… anet, doesn’t give 2 squirts is p*ss about whether or not you like the changes they make. they don’t care a bit about what you feel they should or should not add to the game. they’re sole purpose is to create, in you, a need to spend your money. there are far too many examples of this in game for me to list here, but for those of you who will undoubtedly call bs.. take a look at the history thus far.. anything that deals with the gem store get immediate attention.. everything else, get attention, IF at all, when they feel like getting around to it. how long did it take them to fix the skritt segment of the personal storyline? how long did it take them to fix the cattlepult so ppl could get the vista? during this time, how many new items did they add to the gem store for you to spend money on? how many new bugs did they introduce, rather than fixing any of the existing bugs? I loved gw1.. but anet has lost their sense of gaming when they discovered what kind of money they could make from all the suckers that don’t see the big picture.

vv que trolls vv

Your right, so right is sad really.

Really people have had issues grinding zombies since september and still there’s no change to that.

Zenith.6403:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

People keep saying there wasn’t grind in Guild Wars but there really was. Really really. Am I the only person remembering “chest runs” for Wisdom? The sheer piles of lockpicks used up trying to raise Luck? The time devoted to turning Balthazar Faction into Zaishen Keys to get a crack at the chest?

- I make the difference between grind by design (e.g. you must repeatedly complete fractals to get relics) and grind as voluntary behavior, like choosing to run chests for money you could have by many other means. Important thing about Guild Wars was that there was no grind for power until very late at the game’s life cycle (skill power based on title).

Chest runs weren’t for money, chest runs were for Wisdom rank which in turn affected your chance to pull upgrades out of items. It was that, and for the maxed title title (“God Walking Amongst Mere Mortls”) which people wanted. Of course, that was WAY more grind than anything we have even now, in several places.

The grind for Wisdom and Luck (again, also a factor in pulling upgrades) was present before Factions. Then there was the grind for Survivor, which was very much a luck-based debacle for the largest part of the game lifecycle. And the grind for PvP related titles. These existed before the Factions skills which ran off the title track there, which was also hardly “late in life cycle”. The skill “Save Yourselves!” came to be known at least in some circles as more unbalancing than Ursan’s Blessing in more situations. It’s just that Ursan’s Blessing was easier to work with and required next to no care to execute.

These are what you’re referring to as the title-based skills? Because that’s what I think of. That and Pain Inverter, which was practically a staple for dealing with bosses.

Adding new currencies for new activities and rewards effectively makes it so that power gain is exclusive to that content type. Scaling up numbers means that content has to be run repeatedly. There’s the thing that causes grind.

You’re half right, this does often lead to grind. Of course, there’s the other path to grind, which is the idea it’s built in to keep something “exclusive”. You know, the usual culprits. The 0.05% drop rate, the immense gold sinks, the “do it til you get it right, save or die” quests/missions/events . . . all meant to keep the bulk of players from not getting to that content so it’s by its nature rare.

And I have no objections to either path to grind if it’s for a cosmetic reward or boasting rights. I have relatively mild objections if it’s for “best in slot” items, and I keep them to myself if it’s possible to go without and still do passably well.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

People keep saying there wasn’t grind in Guild Wars but there really was. Really really. Am I the only person remembering “chest runs” for Wisdom? The sheer piles of lockpicks used up trying to raise Luck? The time devoted to turning Balthazar Faction into Zaishen Keys to get a crack at the chest?

We know there was grind in Guild Wars, but it wasn’t the same and there was VERY little that had to do with max stats. Lockpicks/Luck was really a non-issue because “stat-wise” luck was just a built-in cost reduction for using your xth Lockpick – so that grinding Luck for the stat was self-defeating (you were of course free to grind the title – Guild Wars had plenty of super grindy titles). Earning Balthazar Faction was never a grind for me at all… I earned millions of faction without even having a thing to use it on (and thus just lost it). Besides, the chests were cosmetics and titles. All things considered, GW grind was/is a very different animal from what we see in GW2 today.

1. The new dailies have been easier for me to complete. The other day I completed the daily doing a fractals run, a dungeon run, a personal story mission on an alt and running around Straits of Devastation doing events and killing random ambient animals, which I do normally anyway. I do a fractals run every few days, I run a dungeon when guildies are up for it and I usually level an alt a bit if there isn’t something I want to do on my main. I completed six of the nine things on the daily just by doing what I normally do. It’s not like I have to do the dungeon runs, but that’s what many guildies want to do, and if I’m not in a dungeon run, I’m randomly running around a zone that I feel like exploring, leveling an alt or helping out guildies. Sure I do go out of my way to complete a daily if it’s not done after a few hours of playing, but most of the time, I get most or all of the categories done without even worrying about it.

2. The gear grind in this game is nothing compared to others. I did a ton of dungeon runs in green/rare gear for the longest time and you don’t even good gear to run around Orr, though it does help a tad. Sure gear helps, but its by no means required and it doesn’t even help you that much. Unless you consider a person having 20 more stats than you significant. In the end, those stat differences don’t even matter in most of the game. In PVE the only thing requiring good gear is high level fractals, which is only for those who wish to grind up to the highest level they can possibly get. Most of my guildies are happy with running 1-10 fractals even though many of them can run 15+. WvW can have an effect based upon your gear, but in a group battle, most of the battles is based upon your group’s ability to outplay your foe, either by superior tactics, or in many cases superior numbers (which can be considered by some not a way to outplay a foe, but it’s a legitimate strategy).

3. The conflicting information you are citing is being released in a different order than you said it is, or at least from what I’ve read in threads. At first they said that they are not currently working on the precursor system, but then they said that they do plan to release it… eventually. Eventually isn’t a term people want to read, but they are working on it. They are going to work on conditions, I read the thread earlier in the week. First a dev said that they weren’t. Later another dev said that this is not true and that they are working on finding an effective system to fix this without changing how the game plays. The first dev apologized for having out of date information because he was in another part of the world, not in the offices. The AoE I can partially agree with, but lets look at it realistically, nerfing all aoe would make several builds insignificant and unviable. The point of nerfing aoe is to make the overpowered skills balanced and keeping the balanced skills balanced… and increasing the viability of currently outclassed builds while keeping as many of the currently viable builds as possible. And also on culling. From how I’ve seen it work, yes it is worse, but it’s not as bad as some people would think. I only noticed culling in dragon fights or in other large events, but I always see what I need to see, which are the enemies. Personally I think they should add an option to render all players and npcs. Whether or not your computer can handle it is your problem. And finally, in game development, plans change on a daily basis, while getting information is good, no information can also mean that things are changing so much that saying things can be detrimental, because it can be cut or changed hours later.

I understand you are frustrated with this game. I personally want to see more end-game related pve events, but that’s another time. The game released 6 months ago and its pretty different from Guild Wars 1. This isn’t an updated version of gw1, it’s following their vision. They’ve stated their vision, and I think they are following it for the most part. You can’t expect the game to be perfect in such little time.

Derk.3189:

I’m not trying to insult you, but reading your post I can only sum it up with that you are naive. Colin’s blog post stemmed from a torrent of complaints about Arenanet breaking their promises, leading them to phrase their words in specific ways, even citing that they do not wish to be caught out on something later on when they do decide to have another change in their philosophies. Leaving avenues open so to speak. I am certain another tier of gear will come, probably next year. I am also certain I won’t be around in this game to care either.

That amuses me. From reading this thread, playing the game, and listening to Anet I’ve surmised that they have broken no promises. If you wish that the game was catered directly to what you believe the design should be (or, more likely, what you interpreted their words as saying) then you’re the naive one.

Zenith.6403:

- I make the difference between grind by design (e.g. you must repeatedly complete fractals to get relics) and grind as voluntary behavior, like choosing to run chests for money you could have by many other means. Important thing about Guild Wars was that there was no grind for power until very late at the game’s life cycle (skill power based on title). Adding new currencies for new activities and rewards effectively makes it so that power gain is exclusive to that content type. Scaling up numbers means that content has to be run repeatedly. There’s the thing that causes grind.

The items in fractals are increasingly becoming able to be obtained outside of fractals, therefore allowing people to not need to grind fractals (at least it’s bearable; if it was the exact same dungeon over and over people would be up in arms). Chest runs had just as much option and obligation to do them. I don’t need a fractal capacitor, and I don’t need the treasure hunter title track. I don’t have either of them because I don’t want them, honestly. And I dislike spending that much time doing one thing. But I admire those who enjoy doing that, and I don’t think it should be changed. I’ll get ascended gear eventually, don’t need it now. Grind is always an option, but I’ll be getting my ascended gear mostly outside fractals. (I do enjoy the occasional fractal run though, good source of money and can be quite fun.)

Also I’m surprised by the people talking about condition damage builds not working anymore…I use that and it works quite well.

Fortuna.7259:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

People keep saying there wasn’t grind in Guild Wars but there really was. Really really. Am I the only person remembering “chest runs” for Wisdom? The sheer piles of lockpicks used up trying to raise Luck? The time devoted to turning Balthazar Faction into Zaishen Keys to get a crack at the chest?

We know there was grind in Guild Wars, but it wasn’t the same and there was VERY little that had to do with max stats. Lockpicks/Luck was really a non-issue because “stat-wise” luck was just a built-in cost reduction for using your xth Lockpick – so that grinding Luck for the stat was self-defeating (you were of course free to grind the title – Guild Wars had plenty of super grindy titles). Earning Balthazar Faction was never a grind for me at all… I earned millions of faction without even having a thing to use it on (and thus just lost it). Besides, the chests were cosmetics and titles. All things considered, GW grind was/is a very different animal from what we see in GW2 today.

You didn’t have to grind for Balth? Great! Unfortunately . . . I did. Oh DEAR GODS I had to grind that like I needed spices and my blender was broken. I had to grind that and swallow lots of profanity and dealing with learning how PvP was so very different from the rest of the game that I am surprised I didn’t cause more flames than a League player on a bad losing streak.

And no argument that the two don’t compare directly. But it still amuses me people continue saying there wasn’t any grind in Guild Wars 1, when I know what I went through for my “Expert Treasure Hunter” . . . and that’s not even halfway to the maximum.

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

Also I’m surprised by the people talking about condition damage builds not working anymore…I use that and it works quite well.

I applaud your post, though I want to clarify something. It’s not that condition builds don’t work, just they are sub-optimal in some situations, mostly in cases where you hit the 25 bleed cap or are fighting structures (i.e turrets and walls).

I’ve been playing since the first BWE. I remember being told by Anet that exotic gear would be the best armor/weapon tier available and legendaries would match it because horizontal progression is better than vertical progression. Well I took a break from Oct-January (real life stuff). I get back on Guild Wars 2 and find out I’ve been left behind I am now currently trying to get ascended gear.

I was really hoping this game wouldn’t add in more tiers of armor because that is the one thing I hate about MMOs. I love my exotic gear I have and I dread the thought of having to replace it every 6 months. Plus, with characters being scaled down in most zones I just don’t understand the need for uber 1337 gear that will eventually do 9,999,999 damage and one-hit-kills Zhaitan.

WatchTheShow.7203:

I was really hoping this game wouldn’t add in more tiers of armor because that is the one thing I hate about MMOs. I love my exotic gear I have and I dread the thought of having to replace it every 6 months. Plus, with characters being scaled down in most zones I just don’t understand the need for uber 1337 gear that will eventually do 9,999,999 damage and one-hit-kills Zhaitan.

About two things to add to this about why your fears are premature.

1. They haven’t jumped off the deep end yet on the gear progression issue. It looks more like they dipped their foot in, found it wasn’t going to do and backed off to the kiddie pool. Sure, they might go back and try again, but we don’t ever have any guarantees of anything.

2. You’re not going to see one-hit-kills of Zhaitan or significant open-world boss type encounters due to how the downscaling works. You may see them be folded over like they were rammed in the stomach with a sledgehammer and having sand poured down their pants, but you get enough people beating on them now and they do that anyway.

(Poor Svanir Shaman, better luck next time at the Maw.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But it still amuses me people continue saying there wasn’t any grind in Guild Wars 1

You must’ve been playing a different game. I got my Tormented Shield in like a day, my Voltaic spear in like 2 hours, and of course those 26 plats required for +3 shadow arts just so I can solo farm? Got it in like a minute. No grind at all dude.

Fiontar.4695:

My only reservation about the dailies is that I’m finding it’s very easy to become so focused on efficiently completing dailies that you stop playing the game in a natural manner. Running around with a checklist of stuff to do detracts from immersion and exploration and eventually people are going to get really sick of the daily routine, even with efforts to change the mix every day.

I don’t know what the to that is, but it is something I’m worried about and the dailies have started to detract from my personal game play in noticeable ways which has me even more worried.

The solution is very simple make open world drop all kind of loot including precursor and fractal items and we will get everything we need wihle playing the game the fun way (our way).
But Anet solution for that is do the Daily to get the items you need.(they fixed a problem but created another problem)

Ursan.7846:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But it still amuses me people continue saying there wasn’t any grind in Guild Wars 1

You must’ve been playing a different game. I got my Tormented Shield in like a day, my Voltaic spear in like 2 hours, and of course those 26 plats required for +3 shadow arts just so I can solo farm? Got it in like a minute. No grind at all dude.

Read closer. I’m not talking about the gear, especially when you can buy it from players if you have enough coin on hand. If anything that game had such a simplistic approach to gear it was almost a negligible concern for 90% of the time you were playing. It’s the titles which had it.

And before you tell me they don’t count because you could ignore them, stop and think long and hard on if you want to pull that exact line which gets people blasted on these forums concerning Fractals.

Fortuna.7259:

Vayne.8563:

Proof? Because I don’t spend money on the game and play it just fine. This kind of conspiracy theory is the worst kind of conspiracy theory. One that appeals to fear in people without having a shred of evidence to back it up.

I would hardly call a corporation taking actions to increase their own profits a “conspiracy theory.” More like common sense. The only question is what the business strategy is.

Saying Anet doesn’t care at all about anything but making money through the cash shop is a conspiracy theory. The poster is saying that everything they do is about making money through the cash shop. Except I can think of tons of things they could have done but haven’t. So maybe it’s not that clear cut.

Every company wants to increase its profits, but some companies do have self-imposed moral limits. I had a computer store at one point in my life and I had things I wouldn’t do. I wouldn’t buy stolen merchandise, even if I knew I could get away with it, because I didn’t want to make money that way. That’s a limit.

Anet has limits too. Look at other F2P MMOs and compare their cash shop with Anets. Then we’ll talk about greed.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Read closer. I’m not talking about the gear, especially when you can buy it from players if you have enough coin on hand. If anything that game had such a simplistic approach to gear it was almost a negligible concern for 90% of the time you were playing. It’s the titles which had it.

And before you tell me they don’t count because you could ignore them, stop and think long and hard on if you want to pull that exact line which gets people blasted on these forums concerning Fractals.

I actually was being sarcastic. I apologize if it didn’t come across well. I worked my kitten off for 3 years in GW to get everything I mentioned, plus the Lucky/Salvage titles, and I still don’t have GWAMM.

Vayne.8563:

Fortuna.7259:

Vayne.8563:

Proof? Because I don’t spend money on the game and play it just fine. This kind of conspiracy theory is the worst kind of conspiracy theory. One that appeals to fear in people without having a shred of evidence to back it up.

I would hardly call a corporation taking actions to increase their own profits a “conspiracy theory.” More like common sense. The only question is what the business strategy is.

Saying Anet doesn’t care at all about anything but making money through the cash shop is a conspiracy theory. The poster is saying that everything they do is about making money through the cash shop. Except I can think of tons of things they could have done but haven’t. So maybe it’s not that clear cut.

Every company wants to increase its profits, but some companies do have self-imposed moral limits. I had a computer store at one point in my life and I had things I wouldn’t do. I wouldn’t buy stolen merchandise, even if I knew I could get away with it, because I didn’t want to make money that way. That’s a limit.

Anet has limits too. Look at other F2P MMOs and compare their cash shop with Anets. Then we’ll talk about greed.

Do I get to mention that one thing with the ponies which is deliciously evil?

Ursan.7846:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Read closer. I’m not talking about the gear, especially when you can buy it from players if you have enough coin on hand. If anything that game had such a simplistic approach to gear it was almost a negligible concern for 90% of the time you were playing. It’s the titles which had it.

And before you tell me they don’t count because you could ignore them, stop and think long and hard on if you want to pull that exact line which gets people blasted on these forums concerning Fractals.

I actually was being sarcastic. I apologize if it didn’t come across well. I worked my kitten off for 3 years in GW to get everything I mentioned, plus the Lucky/Salvage titles, and I still don’t have GWAMM.

I’ve had people say things like that to me with absolutely no trace of sarcasm and a reiteration they were actually serious about it, so my radar is a little off. Heh :P

Seven years, and I never even begun to get halfway to finishing some of those titles. Some were just WAY too time intensive and repetitive for me to bother doing (Chest runs, as mentioned) or plain expensive (Lucky).

Ursan.7846:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But it still amuses me people continue saying there wasn’t any grind in Guild Wars 1

You must’ve been playing a different game. I got my Tormented Shield in like a day, my Voltaic spear in like 2 hours, and of course those 26 plats required for +3 shadow arts just so I can solo farm? Got it in like a minute. No grind at all dude.

GW1 had grind. There, a 2nd person who thinks the same…

Sure, GW2 has “grind”, but so did GW1.

I’d say grind is something that is a person’s perspective for the most part. A lot of those “grind” elements of GW2 mentioned above are things I do not find to be “real” grind.

papryk.6273:

this forum is one of the worst I have ever seen…simply just write something that isn’t favorable to Anet even if it’s written in a polite way, it will be deleted, edited, moved, closed…. so there go you freedom of speech…in the trashbin.

[img]http://www.anh-usa.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/censorship.jpg[/img]

Forums have rules. Break or violate them results in said action. It’s like going to the police station and then smacking the police officer while screaming “It’s my freedom to do whatever I want!” It doesn’t work like that lol.

The GW2 forums are pretty lenient. I know that community forums and unofficial forums a very very strict on trash talking and bashing. On here, they let you give negative feedback, provided that you’re not excessively bashing or calling negatively at someone/something.

We’re still playing a game right? I think the OP needs to get a reality check and stop taking life too seriously. You can’t ‘trust’ AN. Really?

To the op. No, there is nothing left to trust in this game as a hardcore player doing wvw.

Vayne.8563:

Saying Anet doesn’t care at all about anything but making money through the cash shop is a conspiracy theory. The poster is saying that everything they do is about making money through the cash shop. Except I can think of tons of things they could have done but haven’t. So maybe it’s not that clear cut.

It still isn’t a conspiracy theory just because it was expressed using hyperbole. A company is effectively a single entity in this case… just whom would it be conspiring with? Furthermore, making profits through the cash shop is not a hidden agenda. There is just no “conspiracy” in the theory, sorry…

The words “conspiracy theory” evoke the idea that the idea is implausible on the basis that it requires an unreasonable amount of complicity to be true. What we have here is simply a business with an indisputable motivation (making money) and a several likely possible strategies to achieve its goal. One reasonable strategy (having been demonstrated by other similar companies) is pretty much what is being described. That doesn’t mean that it is true, but it holds a lot more weight than a conspiracy theory, and thus less burden of proof before it is worthy of consideration.

Vayne.8563:

Every company wants to increase its profits, but some companies do have self-imposed moral limits. I had a computer store at one point in my life and I had things I wouldn’t do. I wouldn’t buy stolen merchandise, even if I knew I could get away with it, because I didn’t want to make money that way. That’s a limit.

Anet has limits too. Look at other F2P MMOs and compare their cash shop with Anets. Then we’ll talk about greed.

I wouldn’t assume a corporation has any self-imposed moral limits. The behavior of corporations is governed by profits, and “moral” behavior by a corporation is about preventing the erosion its customer base. To project morals onto a corporation is a serious error in judgement… A lesson I believe Alan Greenspan claimed he was astonished to discover.

Differences in cash shop offerings are attributable to differences in business strategies, of which you are examining only the surface.

Azjenco.9425:

What if ascended items stood next to exotics? Instead of being the next step, ascended could have had different forms of stats and bonuses not found on exotics. If ascended items were represented in new ways, then it could have opened options and have you make meaningful choices about how you wish to build your character in different ways.

Problem! I think all the stat type distributions are covered by Exotics. And the ones which aren’t covered I’m . . . tentatively sure wouldn’t be very useful. They’d be horizontal enough if they were:

- Lacking an upgrade slot you could slot Runes/Crests/Jewels into.
- Infusions contained only Agony Resistance and one stat bonus. Set that bonus to the highest value a Crest contains.
- Only Trinkets.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Azjenco.9425:

What if ascended items stood next to exotics? Instead of being the next step, ascended could have had different forms of stats and bonuses not found on exotics. If ascended items were represented in new ways, then it could have opened options and have you make meaningful choices about how you wish to build your character in different ways.

Problem! I think all the stat type distributions are covered by Exotics. And the ones which aren’t covered I’m . . . tentatively sure wouldn’t be very useful. They’d be horizontal enough if they were:

- Lacking an upgrade slot you could slot Runes/Crests/Jewels into.
- Infusions contained only Agony Resistance and one stat bonus. Set that bonus to the highest value a Crest contains.
- Only Trinkets.

You see, that’s my biggest concern. Runes are completely excluded from ascended gear, though I’m not sure how ascended armor will be handled when it’s inevitably added into the game. Taking them away means removing another part of itemization choice. I really like Infusions, but Runes should still have a place. Maybe allow a certain infusion to slot a rune.

What I meant by different forms of stats and bonuses, I didn’t necessarily mean variations on the existing bonuses. What I rather meant was completely new forms of stats that distinguish then from exotics.
To give a rough example of what I had in mind, an ascended item could look something like this:
80 Power: +40 if you have a boon on you
80 Precision
80 Toughness: +40 if you have a condition on you

or

80 Precision/Condition Damage
80 Vitality/Toughness
80 Power/Healing
Switch from one set to the other whenever you switch between your weapons.

Again, this is a rough example, but there are ways to differentiate one gear type from another to maintain a level of horizontal progression. Also as an example, perhaps some rune effects can already be placed on ascended gear to substitute a stat. This is something not found on exotics and would really distinguish them from ascended gear.

Doing horizontal gear choices is really a place for designers to get creative and add deep choices for the players. Like I said, that would actually make you choose between which gear might make your build more interesting, rather than going from an exotic shaman set to an ascended shaman set.

I got excited when I saw a little red marker next to this thread name. Nope, just another threat to lock a thread that doesn’t put Guild Wars 2 in the best light. I guess they let this one slide because it was somewhat better written.

I’d like to echo some of the sentiments of the OP. I couldn’t have been more pro-ANet, really. I Loved GW1, and loved this game, on release. If anyone asked me 3 months ago “should I buy Guild Wars 2?”, I’d have said “heck yes!”. Now though? Especially with the February update? I dunno. I have a horrible feeling the game is going in the direction of many other MMOs which is simply: it gets worse with every patch.

I do feel like I’ve lost a lot of trust in ArenaNet. I try to remind myself that I’m in it for the beauty of the game. Well, I am…but…to paraphrase one of the new races: “ooo, shinies!”. Yes, the shinies. More shinies being introduced all the time and now finally some really feel out of my reach, or in the case of Ascended earrings, I feel like I’m being heavily penalised for only being able to purchase them through the laurel vendor. I try to tell myself sometimes that I don’t really need them. Exotic is fine. But you know, we all know there will come a time when only “full ascended” people will be wanted in Pick-up Groups, which I have to use often.

Then there’s rumour and speculation about Cantha. My beloved Cantha. If it’s ever confirmed those rumours are true that could be one pretty huge nail-in-the-coffin for me.

All in all, the lack of official responses on their own forum is very irritating. They often lock down threads that don’t put the game in the best light, but never chip in to debates. We all know why they don’t – if they said anything remotely out of line they get ripped to shreds. Most of us care about the game, a lot, even if we differ in opinion. After the introduction of Ascended gear, which many were opposed to, it now feels like unless we shout as loud as we can the staff might look upon that one post buy some kitten saying “uhhhhhh guise I wanna grind for one whole year for a 25% chance to get a special item” and actually implement it, like it’s something we all want.

Fortuna.7259:

I wouldn’t assume a corporation has any self-imposed moral limits. The behavior of corporations is governed by profits, and “moral” behavior by a corporation is about preventing the erosion its customer base. To project morals onto a corporation is a serious error in judgement… A lesson I believe Alan Greenspan claimed he was astonished to discover.

The only “self-imposed moral limits” here would be the from the devs because of their reputations and the playerbases’ opinion of them. They are a personal/identifiable facet of a company that we don’t usually get with corporations. Unfortanetly they represent a subsidary of the faceless corporation and don’t have absolute control over their statements and decisions.

I think that most of the things said before release were true, or at least believed to be true, when they were said. There were some misleading statements closer to release that I find hard to believe were last-minute changes or something the dev making the statement didn’t know about. One that really stood out for me was a video where legendary weapons were discussed that went into detail about them requiring items the player “can’t just buy” and requiring a large effort from the player, which while this is technically still true, was very misleading to imply that the weapons themselves were bound in some way on craft. This doesn’t really bother me, but it’s a definite blow to being able to trust anything these people say.

One thing that really does bother me, although it’s much more subjective, was the statements that went from early in development to near/after release about GW2 being alt-friendy and encouraging alts as a playstyle, especially as an end-game option. The addition of ascended gear and the extremely time-consuming methods of getting it, are ridiculously counter-productive to encouraging alts as a valid playstyle. Aside from RNG drops in Fractals, it would take minimum of 1 month to get a set of ascended jewelry/trinkets.

I’m basing this timeframe on the following
– 10 days each to get 2 rings from FotM tokens
– 30 days to get 1 amulet from the Laurels vendor
– 7 days each to get 2 accessories from the Guild Commendations vendor (based on reward info here http://www.guildwars2hub.com/guides/basics/complete-guide-guild-missions)

This is all assuming that you do every daily(and don’t spend Laurels on anything else), do FotM daily at level 10 or higher, and do every Guild Mission each week (requires a guild that actually has these unlocks, and being online at the time they are activated). This is feasible with the dailies, but a lot don’t have the time (or desire) to do FotM daily, and the Guild Missions can be very restrictive for the reasons stated above.

I’m fairly sure the reasons for the artificially/arbitrarily drawn-out process is to “balance” between casual and hardcore players, as well as keeping the hardcore crowd playing longer with this forced slow progression. Slowing down the hardcore players to what Anet thinks is a good rate for casuals kind of makes sense for single-character casuals versus single-character hardcores, but what about multi-profession players?

From what I’ve seen, a lot of hardcore players (especially the “content locust” type) focus on a single character, or have alts but only care about their “main” enough to get this type of gear. On the other hand, I know of a lot more casual players (some do spend a lot of time playing, but are not what most would call hardcore) that spread their time around alts and don’t focus on a single character. I consider myself part of the latter “hardcore casual” group. I have good amount of playtime, 7 level 80s, but no real “main”.

The single-character hardcore player has a huge advantage in this system, because a single month gets them everything they need for their “maxed out” character. On the other end of the spectrum the casuals and hardcore casuals with multiple characters have months/years to get the same for their characters, unless they are forced to choose one, which is completley against their playstyle. And this timeframe will continue to get longer as more ascended items are added with the same arbitrary time sinks. It’s already lengthened significantly if (like me) you don’t want to do FotM often, or have a small guild that will take months to even unlock Guild Missions, let alone the difficulties in getting the maximum number of Commendations each week.

As a member of this multi-char group, being forced into this choice is not “playing my way” or alt-friendy, it’s “playing Anet’s way” and devastating to alt-a-holics. And it is certainly not the gameplay I used to trust Anet to give to me.

I, for one, refuse to step onto this course, and will not be forced into Anet’s image of the “ideal player”…at the cost of knowing I will never have a “maxed”/completed character.

Gotta love the GW1 player base. Always good for a chuckle. Still upset this isn’t GW1 part 2, or an expansion of that game. Because, really, that’s what it breaks down to.

killcannon.2576:

Gotta love the GW1 player base. Always good for a chuckle. Still upset this isn’t GW1 part 2, or an expansion of that game. Because, really, that’s what it breaks down to.

GW2 is very fun to play, as one GW1. But the promise of “taking what made GW great and putting that into a persisent world” is just flat-out being destroyed in favor of “taking what kept the gear-addicts playing insert every other MMO and putting that into what was supposed to be a unique game”.

GW2 isn’t GW1, and it wasn’t supposed to be….but the great things about GW1 they did keep are being killed off in favor of being like everyone else.

Look at Guild Missions. All they are is raiding, on an even bigger scale. A raid that takes an incrediable amount of influence (and then Merits) to unlock, not to mention the disaster of trying to organize what is essentially an up to 500-player raid. It took long enough in GW1 to get a 12-player ready to do the Canthan “Elite Missions”.

Guild Missions sound a lot like this “preparing to have fun” part GW2 wasn’t supposed to have.
…I earned some influence and merits. …I earned some influence and merits again. Hey, I earned some again. That’s great!

mrstealth.6701:

killcannon.2576:

Gotta love the GW1 player base. Always good for a chuckle. Still upset this isn’t GW1 part 2, or an expansion of that game. Because, really, that’s what it breaks down to.

GW2 is very fun to play, as one GW1. But the promise of “taking what made GW great and putting that into a persisent world” is just flat-out being destroyed in favor of “taking what kept the gear-addicts playing insert every other MMO and putting that into what was supposed to be a unique game”.

GW2 isn’t GW1, and it wasn’t supposed to be….but the great things about GW1 they did keep are being killed off in favor of being like everyone else

Just curious though, if you take away lore, the world, and all the aesthetics, what of GW1 is still alive in GW2?

mrstealth.6701:

killcannon.2576:

Gotta love the GW1 player base. Always good for a chuckle. Still upset this isn’t GW1 part 2, or an expansion of that game. Because, really, that’s what it breaks down to.

GW2 is very fun to play, as one GW1. But the promise of “taking what made GW great and putting that into a persisent world” is just flat-out being destroyed in favor of “taking what kept the gear-addicts playing insert every other MMO and putting that into what was supposed to be a unique game”.

GW2 isn’t GW1, and it wasn’t supposed to be….but the great things about GW1 they did keep are being killed off in favor of…I don’t even know what.

Take it from a 7 year vet of WoW, there isn’t a gear chase here yet. They may start one, but it isn’t here yet. This is Happy Fun Princess Island of gear grinds compared to other mmos. I still can’t get over how nice it is here compared to other mmos. It’s relaxing, it’s fun, I don’t stress over not playing a couple days, and I can do all the content (except jp’s, hate jp’s). This may not be GW1, but it’s a kitten fine mmo.

Azjenco.9425:

mrstealth.6701:

killcannon.2576:

Gotta love the GW1 player base. Always good for a chuckle. Still upset this isn’t GW1 part 2, or an expansion of that game. Because, really, that’s what it breaks down to.

GW2 is very fun to play, as one GW1. But the promise of “taking what made GW great and putting that into a persisent world” is just flat-out being destroyed in favor of “taking what kept the gear-addicts playing insert every other MMO and putting that into what was supposed to be a unique game”.

GW2 isn’t GW1, and it wasn’t supposed to be….but the great things about GW1 they did keep are being killed off in favor of being like everyone else

Just curious though, if you take away lore, the world, and all the aesthetics, what of GW1 is still alive in GW2?

Does there need to be more than the lore, the world, and the aesthetics to turn what was essentially a coop rpg game into a true mmo? Some things would just never have worked from GW1 put into a persistent world setting with the population of an mmo. It can’t be the same, no matter how much they may have wanted it to be in the beginning, or how much the fans of the original may also want it to be.

killcannon.2576:

Take it from a 7 year vet of WoW, there isn’t a gear chase here yet. They may start one, but it isn’t here yet. This is Happy Fun Princess Island of gear grinds compared to other mmos. I still can’t get over how nice it is here compared to other mmos.

To someone that has 7 (close to 8 ) level 80s, it certainly is. I’d be looking at a minimum of 8 months to get ascended jewelry alone. That’s not including a back slot item, or any infusions. It might be better than a lot of other MMO’s, but I just don’t see how it’s not a gear chase if you have more than a single character.

killcannon.2576:

Does there need to be more than the lore, the world, and the aesthetics to turn what was essentially a coop rpg game into a true mmo? Some things would just never have worked from GW1 put into a persistent world setting with the population of an mmo. It can’t be the same, no matter how much they may have wanted it to be in the beginning, or how much the fans of the original may also want it to be.

The only thing I can think of are H&H and I’m glad they aren’t back. But I was more referring to the insane amount of builds an itemization. It’s still here, but not quite as strong as I remember it from back then. Item drops and time spent were better back then, something the devs are still trying to get right. Also, dailies aren’t quite yet the Zhaisen missions of GW2 which I think ANet are trying to replicate here.

To me GW2 is the superior product, but there certainly are some really strong things in GW1. People shouldn’t be so quick to scoff and roll their eyes at the GW1 fan base in this forum. There are still a few things GW2 can learn from GW1.

killcannon.2576:

killcannon.2576:

Gotta love the GW1 player base. Always good for a chuckle. Still upset this isn’t GW1 part 2, or an expansion of that game. Because, really, that’s what it breaks down to.

Take it from a 7 year vet of WoW.This is Happy Fun Princess Island of gear grinds compared to other mmos.

Gear grinds key word.

Azjenco.9425:

killcannon.2576:

Does there need to be more than the lore, the world, and the aesthetics to turn what was essentially a coop rpg game into a true mmo? Some things would just never have worked from GW1 put into a persistent world setting with the population of an mmo. It can’t be the same, no matter how much they may have wanted it to be in the beginning, or how much the fans of the original may also want it to be.

The only thing I can think of are H&H and I’m glad they aren’t back. But I was more referring to the insane amount of builds an itemization. It’s still here, but not quite as strong as I remember it from back then. Item drops and time spent were better back then, something the devs are still trying to get right. Also, dailies aren’t quite yet the Zhaisen missions of GW2 which I think ANet are trying to replicate here.

There were some really strong things in GW1 that could work here as well. People shouldn’t be so quick to scoff and roll their eyes at the GW1 fan base in forum. There are still a few things GW2 can learn from GW1.

It’s not my intention to trivialize GW1 players. Not at all. But most discussions of this type quickly break down to “GW1 was better, Anet is alienating the GW1 player base, etc etc” Instead of embracing the parts of the original that are intact, people seem to be offended at the parts they have left out. This isn’t a case of Diablo 2 vs Diablo 3, It’s a case of NWN vs D&D online. Some things just can’t be translated over.

One thing I do really miss is the ease of experimentation. I don’t mind the NPC/fee for changing trait points (it’s cheap anyway) but the gear limitions are the killer. In order to try a new build, you are very likely to need to buy a lot of gear.

In GW1, you could usually get away with just changing skills/attributes (free), and maybe a new weapon or rune. With GW2, you need a new set of armor (exotic armor in GW2 is a lot more trouble to get than max GW1 armor), a full set of runes, new weapons, and new jewelry. And if it doesn’t work you, you’ve wasted a good bit of money. At least in GW1, you can pretty cheaply repurpose armor with new runes/insignias.

mrstealth.6701:

killcannon.2576:

Take it from a 7 year vet of WoW, there isn’t a gear chase here yet. They may start one, but it isn’t here yet. This is Happy Fun Princess Island of gear grinds compared to other mmos. I still can’t get over how nice it is here compared to other mmos.

To someone that has 7 (close to 8 ) level 80s, it certainly is. I’d be looking at a minimum of 8 months to get ascended jewelry alone. That’s not including a back slot item, or any infusions. It might be better than a lot of other MMO’s, but I just don’t see how it’s not a gear chase if you have more than a single character.

It is a gear chase, and it will always be. Before ascended, it was a gear chase. It’s a mmo. I have five alts as well (my poor mesmer is neglected). What is your answer, then, to the gear chase problem? Once you buy something for one toon they all have it? It’s a juggle to try to keep people satisfied and to keep them playing. It’s what you buy into when you get an mmo. They have made remarkable strides in this game to keep everyone decently geared so you can do the content pretty much when it’s available. In other games of this genre (not GW1, not a mmo) , all the content isn’t accessible when your at the level of the content. If a player wants to do any dungeon, they can. If a player wants to do world bosses, they can. If a player wants to W3, they can. It’s something you just do not see in other games of this type.

Sovta.4719:

killcannon.2576:

killcannon.2576:

Gotta love the GW1 player base. Always good for a chuckle. Still upset this isn’t GW1 part 2, or an expansion of that game. Because, really, that’s what it breaks down to.

Take it from a 7 year vet of WoW.This is Happy Fun Princess Island of gear grinds compared to other mmos.

Gear grinds key word.

I can not argue the fact that there is, indeed, a gear grind for people who do not enjoy that play style. Some like it, some do not. I quit WoW because of it (mostly the pvp tier stuff). It is inherent in the MMO. But, yes but, this game ameliorates the grind to an enormous extent.

critickitten.1498:

2) One of my favorite features of GW1 was the concept of horizontal progression. …

for me, it’s the sudden lurch away from that core philosophy which broke my heart. i’d always tried not to believe that all gaming companies were the same. tried to believe that there were some who were composed of gamers who wanted to do more than play glorified platformers. and everything i read about gw2 over the past years only made me drool.

but wow – the whole idea of horizontal progression just got thrown out the window so FAST! one day, i’m playing a game which makes me feel like i’ve found the holy grail, and barely two patches later i’m playing something with hideous shades of every other mmo.

what happened to my anet?

remember when it wasn’t going to be about the loot? remember when it wasn’t going to be about the raiding? remember when it wasn’t about the grind?

yeah.

me neither. not any more.

There was a time, right up to around launch, that I had full confidence in this company as well. Everything they did, not just spoke about, indicated that they were keen advocates for their players and were doing everything in our best interests.

However, in the months since, the decisions they’ve made have made it clear to me that player enjoyment no longer was a priority. It’s as if some Wormtongue is whispering treasonous notions into their ears as they sleep, and those ideas are being thrown into the game without any thought.

Personally, I don’t have much of a problem with game bugs or technical weaknesses. I can live with those. It’s the actual decisions on how things should work in the game that I find abhorrent. ArenaNet has consistently succeeded in driving wedges into their player base, fracturing us with design mechanics that could so easily have been inclusive rather than exclusive.

The most recent example is the guild missions, which clearly have caused no end of anger and consternation with a huge cross-section of players. It would have been so easy to avoid this, but ArenaNet made a conscious decision to go forward with it anyway. That tells me they are either clueless as to what affect these types of mechanics are going to have on their players, or they just don’t care. That’s a long way from the company I remember from the months and years prior to release, who seemed to have their finger squarely on the pulse of their target audience and knew exactly what we were wanting from a game.

Frankly, it feels like completely different team from the one that got me hooked on the game with nothing more than a design manifesto. This one is not only out of touch with their community, but is borderline incompetent.

So yes, I would say that I no longer trust them. I’m not even sure who the hell they are anymore.

Blacklight.2871:

There was a time, right up to around launch, that I had full confidence in this company as well. Everything they did, not just spoke about, indicated that they were keen advocates for their players and were doing everything in our best interests.

However, in the months since, the decisions they’ve made have made it clear to me that player enjoyment no longer was a priority. It’s as if some Wormtongue is whispering treasonous notions into their ears as they sleep, and those ideas are being thrown into the game without any thought.

Personally, I don’t have much of a problem with game bugs or technical weaknesses. I can live with those. It’s the actual decisions on how things should work in the game that I find abhorrent. ArenaNet has consistently succeeded in driving wedges into their player base, fracturing us with design mechanics that could so easily have been inclusive rather than exclusive.

The most recent example is the guild missions, which clearly have caused no end of anger and consternation with a huge cross-section of players. It would have been so easy to avoid this, but ArenaNet made a conscious decision to go forward with it anyway. That tells me they are either clueless as to what affect these types of mechanics are going to have on their players, or they just don’t care. That’s a long way from the company I remember from the months and years prior to release, who seemed to have their finger squarely on the pulse of their target audience and knew exactly what we were wanting from a game.

Frankly, it feels like completely different team from the one that got me hooked on the game with nothing more than a design manifesto. This one is not only out of touch with their community, but is borderline incompetent.

So yes, I would say that I no longer trust them. I’m not even sure who the hell they are anymore.

+1
same feeling

Blacklight.2871:

There was a time, right up to around launch, that I had full confidence in this company as well. Everything they did, not just spoke about, indicated that they were keen advocates for their players and were doing everything in our best interests.

However, in the months since, the decisions they’ve made have made it clear to me that player enjoyment no longer was a priority. It’s as if some Wormtongue is whispering treasonous notions into their ears as they sleep, and those ideas are being thrown into the game without any thought.

Personally, I don’t have much of a problem with game bugs or technical weaknesses. I can live with those. It’s the actual decisions on how things should work in the game that I find abhorrent. ArenaNet has consistently succeeded in driving wedges into their player base, fracturing us with design mechanics that could so easily have been inclusive rather than exclusive.

The most recent example is the guild missions, which clearly have caused no end of anger and consternation with a huge cross-section of players. It would have been so easy to avoid this, but ArenaNet made a conscious decision to go forward with it anyway. That tells me they are either clueless as to what affect these types of mechanics are going to have on their players, or they just don’t care. That’s a long way from the company I remember from the months and years prior to release, who seemed to have their finger squarely on the pulse of their target audience and knew exactly what we were wanting from a game.

Frankly, it feels like completely different team from the one that got me hooked on the game with nothing more than a design manifesto. This one is not only out of touch with their community, but is borderline incompetent.

So yes, I would say that I no longer trust them. I’m not even sure who the hell they are anymore.

It’s not a cross section if it’s only players in small guilds.