Guild Wars 2

GW2’s PvE design is supposedly based on a “soft trinity” of

1) Damage
2) Control
3) Support

Now, let’s take a look at the stats that support these roles:

1) Power, Precision, Ferocity, Condition Damage, Condition Duration
2) Condition Duration
3) Boon duration, Healing Power, Condition Duration

So, what are the equipment prefixes for each role?

1) Zerker and its various CDmg counterparts
2) Giver’s weapons
3) Giver’s armor / Snowflake / other sets with Healing Power

As you can see, Damage is well-supported by a variety of stat combinations. Giver’s is the only prefix that supports Control, but its Condition Duration boost is a rather small 20% (armor doesn’t give CD) and Condition Duration isn’t essential for Control to begin with. There’s a wide variety of equipment that gives Healing Power, but Healing Power is just a small part of Support and its scaling suggests ANet never meant for it to be a viable focus to begin with. Snowflake equipment gives Boon Duration, but a tiny amount of it. In the end, the current prefix system only offers meaningful support to the Damage role, while other roles rely on trait, food, sigil, skill and rune bonuses.

This leads to what we’re seeing now: The game is designed around three roles, but you only need Zerker equipment to fill all of them. Other equipment fills niches that were never meant to be filled. It’s a bunch of Tank and Healer sets that would feel at home in a Trinity game. Even if steps are taken to make bosses more aggressive and defensive stats more desirable, the current system will not offer meaningful choice, because you’ll always want enough Toughness/Vitality to survive and the rest in Zerker stats.

Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but I’ve never seen the connection between the Zerker meta and GW2’s trinity system pointed out and its has always bugged me.

Real issue I see is:

1. 1 needs to be separated into POWER and CONDITION sub sets as CONDITION has rather LARGE disadvantages in large group (or even relatively small group) situations.
2. 2 is only effective during a limited time in BOSS fights (if at all). Can be very effective in lower end “mob” situations (but is not really needed if #1 already killed them).
3. 3 is simply not needed if a group is running proper builds (tho can be helpful).

I’m not sure a “Soft Trinity” really exists and is just wishful thinking by some players. To be brutally honest, you can make an “effective” build that includes all 3 of them (tho you won’t win any speed clearing records in a Dungeon with it). I think THAT is Anet’s true intention and players wanting to play a dedicated “role” in a party is a fabrication (and not needed).

Brother Grimm.5176:

I’m not sure a “Soft Trinity” really exists and is just wishful thinking by some players. To be brutally honest, you can make an “effective” build that includes all 3 of them (tho you won’t win any speed clearing records in a Dungeon with it). I think THAT is Anet’s true intention and players wanting to play a dedicated “role” in a party is a fabrication (and not needed).

Wishful thinking by ANet, actually (the last paragraph):

http://gw2101.gtm.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/

It’s “soft” because many aspects of it can be included in a build. Actually, they have to be included, because you can’t avoid having a healing skill and most weapon sets have at least some CC. The intention was probably that you could shift your build’s focus around a bit, but now you don’t have to.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Real issue I see is:

1. 1 needs to be separated into POWER and CONDITION sub sets as CONDITION has rather LARGE disadvantages in large group (or even relatively small group) situations.
2. 2 is only effective during a limited time in BOSS fights (if at all). Can be very effective in lower end “mob” situations (but is not really needed if #1 already killed them).

These are major problems, as well, which is why the topic is titled “one of the reasons”, but I’d say they are results of other broken/stupid mechanics (stack limits and Defiant) and not faults in the character development system.

1. 3 is simply not needed if a group is running proper builds (tho can be helpful).

Might and Vulnerability stacks count as Support, so it’s quite important for good results.

Quoting Brother Grimm “running proper builds”

They said we wouldn’t have to worry about cookie cutter builds. That’s all there ever is. It’s this build or you’re bad, get out. Really sick of this mentality and the fact that the game requires it.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Real issue I see is:

1. 1 needs to be separated into POWER and CONDITION sub sets as CONDITION has rather LARGE disadvantages in large group (or even relatively small group) situations.
2. 2 is only effective during a limited time in BOSS fights (if at all). Can be very effective in lower end “mob” situations (but is not really needed if #1 already killed them).
3. 3 is simply not needed if a group is running proper builds (tho can be helpful).

I’m not sure a “Soft Trinity” really exists and is just wishful thinking by some players. To be brutally honest, you can make an “effective” build that includes all 3 of them (tho you won’t win any speed clearing records in a Dungeon with it). I think THAT is Anet’s true intention and players wanting to play a dedicated “role” in a party is a fabrication (and not needed).

There’s another problem. Power/precision/and condition builds all use conditions. If they’d just remove conditions from non-condition builds (ie make them only available to condition builds who are maxed in grande master in condition damage lines) it would remove some of the problems we’re seeing with conditions in large groups. I totally agree with the power portion, I think power should improve the initial damage that condition skills do, like the runes for necros for example, or the initial blast from bombs/grenades.

The roles are irrelevant because you don’t need a team composition built around the roles (like in the hard trinity). As a result, roles are lacking. While being very pug friendly, it leads to very unsatisfying team work.

Assuming the roles were relevant, keep in mind that a lot of CC and Support come from skills as opposed to gearing (i.e. reflection skills, barriers, skill revives, stuns, etc). So +condition duration is meaningless for those. In short associating gearing with roles is not a perfect match.

Your “soft trinity” isn’t based on gear, it’s based around builds. Damage, control, support all comes from what you bring to the fights with weapon sets, traits, and utilities.

1) Damage – DPS
2) Control – cc, chill, freeze, immobilize
3) Support – might, fury, aegis, reflects, blinds, vuln

What gear you wear has no effect on 2 and 3. Damage is the only one affected by what gear you have, and to do a lot of it berserker gear is the way to go.

Just to make a comment on your healing power for support; healing power only allows YOU to heal better. Healing power does not help you heal those in your party.

“and Condition Duration isn’t essential for Control to begin with”
- Correction, duration does increase the length of immobilization, so it does have merit if you want to keep someone stationary. Although there are cases where mobs are immune to that condition and therefore negate its benefits.

As for the rest, I agree. Though, I personally run with Celestial because there have been cases in the past where Anet introduced mobs that are impervious to physical damage, or reflect conditions. In those cases, it was really nice to have one set of gear to fulfil my needs and not have to micro manage gear.

On the flipside, this is Anet’s game and their vision. I don’t have any problem with it and I enjoy it for what it is. Though there does exist questionable stat choices, it’s up to the player to decide what best suits their needs.

The problem is failing to let go of the idea (picked up in other games) that gear determines your role in the game. GW2 was designed so that dedicated roles are not a thing in PvE. Gear is just another aspect of the character building system, not a determining factor.

Stop associating gear with roles. Associate classes with roles. Mesmers and guardians provide group condition cleansing and damage mitigation via reflects, blocks. Mesmers can double boons which is unique to them. Warriors and rangers are offensive oriented classes so they are capable of providing might, fury, banners, spirits and other passive dps buffs. Eles can provide vast quantities of might as part of their combat rotation and conjures, thieves provide stealth and are the epitome of glass cannon dps, engineers are a toolbox able to grant might, stealth, reflects and large amounts of vulnerability. The only class that doesn’t fit well is necro, but they can at least provide vuln, condition cleanse and condition conversion and boon corruption.

Allelya.6830:

Quoting Brother Grimm “running proper builds”

They said we wouldn’t have to worry about cookie cutter builds. That’s all there ever is. It’s this build or you’re bad, get out. Really sick of this mentality and the fact that the game requires it.

The game requires it? Or some random guy requires it in his LFG dungeon speedrun listing?

I’m just gonna extend my neck and make a case for healing, at least for my niche. I main Guardian which is one of the biggest blenders of the “soft trinity”. Even armor-wise, I prefer to run Zealot’s with Monk runes than Berserker’s with Scholar/Flame Legion runes (unless a group asks for zerker only) because my preferred healing skill in 5 party groups is the massively underrated Healing Breeze (scales 1:1 with both the incoming and outgoing healing). Combine that with the Selfish Daring trait which heals me and a radius around me for a little bit above my healing power with every roll, the buff to Bow of Truth (which can be overkill), and a tendency to keep my Mace as an alt-weapon to my main-hand Sword often allows me to keep the entire party healed above 90% in high-damage instances such as meleeing Frost in CM Path 1, melee stacking Laurent and his guard in TA Forward, meleeing Destroyer of Worlds in SE Path 3, and meleeing Aldus Stormcaller in HOTW Path 1, and many different instances in Fractals. This is particularly helpful in pug/LFG groups.

Knowing running something like this isn’t “meta” and won’t get me into DnT anytime soon, I still choose to run it because in my 2 year and 4000~ hours in the game I think it works very well. My lack of damage runes and Berserker’s armor (I still run Berserker’s trinkets and weapons) hurts the DPS for sure but it’s a mix of doing as much damage as I can do while still making sure that people downing and having to worry about healing themselves is kept to a minimum.

dekou.6012:

……
Might and Vulnerability stacks count as Support, so it’s quite important for good results.

Those things allow enemies to die faster and that is always “good”. It is NOT however NEEDED to complete content in any way.

Quoting Brother Grimm “running proper builds”

They said we wouldn’t have to worry about cookie cutter builds. That’s all there ever is. It’s this build or you’re bad, get out. Really sick of this mentality and the fact that the game requires it.

I assume you are talking about Dungeon running? Despite some player’s belief, the entire game is a 5 person speed run instance. Besides that one nitch of the game, nobody runs “cookie cutter builds” that I’m aware of (maybe if you are doing specific content or Story missions?). If you want to complain about what you are forced to run in Dungeons, that would be better discussed in that forum.

Sure there are accepted “good” builds but outside of Dungeons, nobody really cares if you use them or not. When I say “proper builds” I mean ones that provide some self healing, condition removal and possibly some control or support….thus all of the things the OP lists as part of “the soft trinity”. Nobody is forced to use these things, it’s just generally a good idea to consider them when making a build.

The game doesn’t require “roles” but you kittentainly choose to run one if you want (but it’s less than optimal).

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem is failing to let go of the idea (picked up in other games) that gear determines your role in the game. GW2 was designed so that dedicated roles are not a thing in PvE. Gear is just another aspect of the character building system, not a determining factor.

So zerker is meaningless for DPS?

I think what you said is more true for GW2 than say WoW, but gearing is still impactful on your role. So you could wear Giver’s armor for DPS and yeah you could still DPS but you wouldn’t be as good as a character in Zerker’s.

Fyrebrand.4859:

Allelya.6830:

Quoting Brother Grimm “running proper builds”

They said we wouldn’t have to worry about cookie cutter builds. That’s all there ever is. It’s this build or you’re bad, get out. Really sick of this mentality and the fact that the game requires it.

The game requires it? Or some random guy requires it in his LFG dungeon speedrun listing?

I don’t understand why game companies take so much time and energy to fight the whole “cookie cutter build” mentality. It’s going to exist whether you want it to or not. Even if it’s the most insignificant advantage (the difference in less than 5% of damage), there will STILL always be a superior build.

There are only two real ways to handle the situation. Embrace it and acknowledge that there will always be a “superior build”, or water down every class and ability to the point where there is effectively no difference between anyone, ergo nothing to optimize for an “optimal” build.

and meleeing Aldus Stormcaller in HOTW Path 1

WALL OF REFLECTION, SHIELD OF THE AVENGER

ZERO HEALING REQUIRED

Those things allow enemies to die faster and that is always “good”. It is NOT however NEEDED to complete content in any way.

I don’t “need” a tank. I don’t “need” a healer in some trinity game instances.

They’re “good” to have.

here’s the thing – you clearly prefer players to have to be interdependent in dungeons. I, and a lot of others however do not want to have to rely on the tank or the healer or the dps to do their jobs properly to even be able to clear the content. I like knowing that I can be in a group of four absolutely atrocious players, pull my weight no matter what class I’m on and get us through it.

Independence > interdependence, IMO.

So zerker is meaningless for DPS?
I think what you said is more true for GW2 than say WoW, but gearing is still impactful on your role. So you could wear Giver’s armor for DPS and yeah you could still DPS but you wouldn’t be as good as a character in Zerker’s.

Gearing is still important, but if you trait stupidly you can still hit for complete peanuts in berserker gear.

A warrior in an optimised build for example can achieve 38% in damage modifiers and might and vulnerability on critical hit through traits. Now if you include night/slaying sigils, scholar runes, that’s an extra 30%. Plus of course you have 250+ precision and 300+ power and 150+ ferocity from traiting.

So if you run full berserker but trait like a complete idiot, that’s a lot of damage you can lose out on. The person in soldier but with DPS traits might end up doing more damage with optimal traits and sigils.

Fyrebrand.4859:

Allelya.6830:

Quoting Brother Grimm “running proper builds”

They said we wouldn’t have to worry about cookie cutter builds. That’s all there ever is. It’s this build or you’re bad, get out. Really sick of this mentality and the fact that the game requires it.

The game requires it? Or some random guy requires it in his LFG dungeon speedrun listing?

I second this question. Lots of builds are viable in that the accomplish a goal, like killing MOB. Running a dungeons with 5 condi necros can get it done. 5 zerker warriors will likely do it faster, but the 5 necros can do it.

So, it’s less the game forcing bland builds, but rather certain parts of the community, isn’kitten

dekou.6012:

GW2’s PvE design is supposedly based on a “soft trinity” of

1) Damage
2) Control
3) Support

Now, let’s take a look at the stats that support these roles:

1) Power, Precision, Ferocity, Condition Damage, Condition Duration
2) Condition Duration
3) Boon duration, Healing Power, Condition Duration

So, what are the equipment prefixes for each role?

1) Zerker and its various CDmg counterparts
2) Giver’s weapons
3) Giver’s armor / Snowflake / other sets with Healing Power

As you can see, Damage is well-supported by a variety of stat combinations. Giver’s is the only prefix that supports Control, but its Condition Duration boost is a rather small 20% (armor doesn’t give CD) and Condition Duration isn’t essential for Control to begin with. There’s a wide variety of equipment that gives Healing Power, but Healing Power is just a small part of Support and its scaling suggests ANet never meant for it to be a viable focus to begin with. Snowflake equipment gives Boon Duration, but a tiny amount of it. In the end, the current prefix system only offers meaningful support to the Damage role, while other roles rely on trait, food, sigil, skill and rune bonuses.

This leads to what we’re seeing now: The game is designed around three roles, but you only need Zerker equipment to fill all of them. Other equipment fills niches that were never meant to be filled. It’s a bunch of Tank and Healer sets that would feel at home in a Trinity game. Even if steps are taken to make bosses more aggressive and defensive stats more desirable, the current system will not offer meaningful choice, because you’ll always want enough Toughness/Vitality to survive and the rest in Zerker stats.

Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but I’ve never seen the connection between the Zerker meta and GW2’s trinity system pointed out and its has always bugged me.

You’ve completely missed the point of the game.

The game is designed with 3 roles in mind – and in harder content ( FOTM 50) those roles still apply.

Keep in mind that you can complete any content in any gear in this game ( except maybe 50 FOTM with zerker if your party is bad).

The problem is that in 2+ years people have mastered the content to such a degree that they don’t need tanky or healy gear to complete the content. You don’t need your gear to be able to take that extra hit because you’ve done that content so many times you know when that hit will be coming and when it won’t so preparing for something you already know is pointless.

It’s like bringing 10 days worth of food for a hike that only takes two. You might do it the first few times ( just to be sure) but after the 20th time you won’t.

the current system will not offer meaningful choice, because you’ll always want enough Toughness/Vitality to survive and the rest in Zerker stats.

News flash – that’s the case in any game. any game ever – trinity or non-trinity mmo – ideally you want just enough armor/vitality to keep you alive and the rest damage so you can clear the content as fast as possible.

Clear it faster ? More gold/loot/whatever. That’s what it comes down to.

Look at other hard trinity MMOs – do you think they bring unnecessary tanks and healers? No. They bring just enough to clear it – the rest is DPS.

Also I’ve seen threads like this one a ton of times. It’s been done and redone and people still don’t get it.

The zerker meta is the meta because people want rewards fast and don’t mind learning content by heart to get them – no matter how you change the game it’ll always come down to some speed meta trying to clear it as fast as possible.

dekou.6012:

It’s “soft” because many aspects of it can be included in a build. Actually, they have to be included, because you can’t avoid having a healing skill and most weapon sets have at least some CC. The intention was probably that you could shift your build’s focus around a bit, but now you don’t have to.

This was the case at launch – people didn’t know bosses or encounter and for most boss fights ended up running the boss around with cripple while ranging ( ergo the cc part of the weapons) but after 2 years do you really expect them to play the same?

Allelya.6830:

Quoting Brother Grimm “running proper builds”

They said we wouldn’t have to worry about cookie cutter builds. That’s all there ever is. It’s this build or you’re bad, get out. Really sick of this mentality and the fact that the game requires it.

This is people deciding who they want to play with. If you’re not the kind of player people are looking for they won’t take you .There’s nothing wrong with that.

If I’m the kind of player that only cares about getting rewards fast you bet I’m not going to take anything else in my party except other players like me. I don’t want to be slow.

If you want non-cookie cutter builds make your non-cookie cutter parties with people who like that and play like that.

Others have the same right to play the game, just like you do.

Mattargul.9235:

Fyrebrand.4859:

Allelya.6830:

Quoting Brother Grimm “running proper builds”

They said we wouldn’t have to worry about cookie cutter builds. That’s all there ever is. It’s this build or you’re bad, get out. Really sick of this mentality and the fact that the game requires it.

The game requires it? Or some random guy requires it in his LFG dungeon speedrun listing?

I second this question. Lots of builds are viable in that the accomplish a goal, like killing MOB. Running a dungeons with 5 condi necros can get it done. 5 zerker warriors will likely do it faster, but the 5 necros can do it.

So, it’s less the game forcing bland builds, but rather certain parts of the community, isn’kitten

Conditions do not stack beyond certain limits, so five condition necros would clear five times slower than five Berserker warriors. Its okay to extrapolate, but make sure that its at least a comparison that is in the same league.

Yes you can clear any content with any class and any build.

Should you do it ? No. Because after a certain point its not even fun or interesting, its stting at your keyboard watching a boss’s HP go down five times slower than before. It has not made the battle more engaging, the boss still just has a massive HP bar, and players will still be dying in a single hit to undodged attacks.

The problem is not, was not, and never willl be classes or builds. Its the mind-numbing PvE in this game and the fact that no role other than DPS is needed because all content ends in a boss with massive HP bars and one-hit kill abilities.

Speedrunners do it for efficiency. But everyone does it just to get the thing to die while they sit drinking a coffee, chewing gum and pressing 1 repeatedly.

And that’s just dungeons, open world is downright unspeakable.

juno.1840:

The roles are irrelevant because you don’t need a team composition built around the roles (like in the hard trinity). As a result, roles are lacking. While being very pug friendly, it leads to very unsatisfying team work.

Assuming the roles were relevant, keep in mind that a lot of CC and Support come from skills as opposed to gearing (i.e. reflection skills, barriers, skill revives, stuns, etc). So +condition duration is meaningless for those. In short associating gearing with roles is not a perfect match.

This game is meant to be forgiving and easy to complete – in almost all its aspects.

That aside – one of its biggest merits is the fact that it doesn’t chain you to other players and force their mistakes to be your downfall.

What you call lack of teamwork I call individual responsibility – no longer can you blame your healer for your dying, your tank for your bad aggro or your dps for the fact that the fight took 20+ minutes.

You have to play right without someone there to cover for you all the time.

Allelya.6830:

Quoting Brother Grimm “running proper builds”

They said we wouldn’t have to worry about cookie cutter builds. That’s all there ever is. It’s this build or you’re bad, get out. Really sick of this mentality and the fact that the game requires it.

I agree, scrap the whole build system! everyone the same! /sarcasm

Y is it so hard to comprehend that some builds are better than others for some things…
It’s not about cookie cutter but about knowing how to adapt.

LostBalloon.6423:

Allelya.6830:

Quoting Brother Grimm “running proper builds”

They said we wouldn’t have to worry about cookie cutter builds. That’s all there ever is. It’s this build or you’re bad, get out. Really sick of this mentality and the fact that the game requires it.

I agree, scrap the whole build system! everyone the same! /sarcasm

Y is it so hard to comprehend that some builds are better than others for some things…
It’s not about cookie cutter but about knowing how to adapt.

It’s not really adapting if you’re using the same generic “Berserker All Big-Hit Abilities” build for every single fight in the game. :p

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

LostBalloon.6423:

Allelya.6830:

Quoting Brother Grimm “running proper builds”

They said we wouldn’t have to worry about cookie cutter builds. That’s all there ever is. It’s this build or you’re bad, get out. Really sick of this mentality and the fact that the game requires it.

I agree, scrap the whole build system! everyone the same! /sarcasm

Y is it so hard to comprehend that some builds are better than others for some things…
It’s not about cookie cutter but about knowing how to adapt.

It’s not really adapting if you’re using the same generic “Berserker All Big-Hit Abilities” build for every single fight in the game. :p

There’s nothing new to adapt to. People have adapted to the current content already because they’ve been playing the same thing for 2 years. When or if there’s new and different content, people will adapt to it and if it’s just more of the same there will be no adaptation needed.

juno.1840:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem is failing to let go of the idea (picked up in other games) that gear determines your role in the game. GW2 was designed so that dedicated roles are not a thing in PvE. Gear is just another aspect of the character building system, not a determining factor.

So zerker is meaningless for DPS?

I think what you said is more true for GW2 than say WoW, but gearing is still impactful on your role. So you could wear Giver’s armor for DPS and yeah you could still DPS but you wouldn’t be as good as a character in Zerker’s.

Relative levels of effectiveness aside, GW2 is designed so that everyone in any build can and probably does do damage. Damage is not a role, it’s something that everyone does. In the same way, support is not a role, nor is control. You can enter an encounter prepared to provide more of A, B or C. You can also restrict yourself to mostly A, B or C. That’s a viable — but certainly not optimal — choice.

I wish ANet had not removed the old blog on healing. It was the source of the “GW2 trinity” assumptions. What it actually said was something more along the lines of damage, support and control being things that players do during the natural course of play. It certainly did not promise dedicated roles, yet that’s what most of the posts like the OP’s are really about.

@IndigoSundown – Wasn’t that one of the articles they posted on the lead-up to GW2? I remember reading those articles, and they opened my eyes to what an MMO could be, after years of playing WoW and other games of that ilk.

It’s a sad thing if they really did remove those posts. I wish I had saved them for posterity.

Haishao.6851:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

LostBalloon.6423:

Allelya.6830:

Quoting Brother Grimm “running proper builds”

They said we wouldn’t have to worry about cookie cutter builds. That’s all there ever is. It’s this build or you’re bad, get out. Really sick of this mentality and the fact that the game requires it.

I agree, scrap the whole build system! everyone the same! /sarcasm

Y is it so hard to comprehend that some builds are better than others for some things…
It’s not about cookie cutter but about knowing how to adapt.

It’s not really adapting if you’re using the same generic “Berserker All Big-Hit Abilities” build for every single fight in the game. :p

There’s nothing new to adapt to. People have adapted to the current content already because they’ve been playing the same thing for 2 years. When or if there’s new and different content, people will adapt to it and if it’s just more of the same there will be no adaptation needed.

Try berserker in WvW, you will get destroyed (well, some classes could have a zerker build)
But you are doing something wrong if your utilities and traits never change.
Though i cant blame anyone, this game was made to be easy-mode, so changing things around to adapt to the different fights is not what everybody does.

Arah is a good example of changing skills/weps around (though not many ppl actually see to be running it because it is “hard”)

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

@IndigoSundown – Wasn’t that one of the articles they posted on the lead-up to GW2? I remember reading those articles, and they opened my eyes to what an MMO could be, after years of playing WoW and other games of that ilk.

It’s a sad thing if they really did remove those posts. I wish I had saved them for posterity.

It was the second of the pre-launch articles I read on their site, so it was around long before launch. It disappeared fairly recently. Iirc, I reread it during early summer, but it no longer seems to be there. I find its removal sad, also.

IndigoSundown.5419:

juno.1840:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem is failing to let go of the idea (picked up in other games) that gear determines your role in the game. GW2 was designed so that dedicated roles are not a thing in PvE. Gear is just another aspect of the character building system, not a determining factor.

So zerker is meaningless for DPS?

I think what you said is more true for GW2 than say WoW, but gearing is still impactful on your role. So you could wear Giver’s armor for DPS and yeah you could still DPS but you wouldn’t be as good as a character in Zerker’s.

Relative levels of effectiveness aside, GW2 is designed so that everyone in any build can and probably does do damage. Damage is not a role, it’s something that everyone does. In the same way, support is not a role, nor is control. You can enter an encounter prepared to provide more of A, B or C. You can also restrict yourself to mostly A, B or C. That’s a viable — but certainly not optimal — choice.

I wish ANet had not removed the old blog on healing. It was the source of the “GW2 trinity” assumptions. What it actually said was something more along the lines of damage, support and control being things that players do during the natural course of play. It certainly did not promise dedicated roles, yet that’s what most of the posts like the OP’s are really about.

A lot of the old blog posts are gone because a lot of that early concept has been abandoned, changed or already implemented.

The vision they had for this game 3-4-5 years ago no longer works with what we have today. It’s not even in the same book let alone the same page. So yes – they’re never going to do “those” things.

There are no (Soft-Trinity) in GW2.

Check out my Guide which’s also supported by ArenaNet and it’s a [Sticky] under players-helping-players sub-forum:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/players/GW2-Combat-system-101-Guide/first

Damage/Control/Support are combat mechanics.
Each mechanic is unique and all classes need to learn how to utilize them.

Good luck!

If stats on armor are meant to be entirely removed from your actual combat capability, then there should be no stats at all. Just have runes, sigils, and traits and be done with it.

There is no direct interplay between your stats and your defenses. Rolls and roll stamina are affected by trait effects, reflects are only affected by traits, boon/condition duration are the only stats which do anything to the effectiveness of the non-regeneration boons and non-damaging conditions you generate, with traits adding extra avenues by which you can apply them, as well as different bonuses for applying them.

Why not allow for defensive stats to have an effect on boon intensity? Or on some appropriate utilities? Or even create new stats to do that very same thing. Have some actual interplay with stats that allow people to really be better at different things. The current system is boring to me precisely because I know I’m not giving up anything meaningful by wearing a full set of berserker armor. The boons I give will have the same intensity no matter what, meaning proper timing on application of boons limits the need for even more boon duration. It acts more like a crutch rather than a tool to expand my skill, to the point where requiring less and less boon duration is a mark of greater mastery over my character’s abilities.

If the only use vitality and toughness have is to just keep my health bar bigger after getting hit by another brainless AI, without anything meaningful to do with that extra time I don’t need to roll around, then it is all just uninteresting gameplay because I can’t apply those strengths directly to aiding my allies or punishing my enemy.

I can be just as helpful rolling around in less strudy armor and keeping myself aware of my environment. Even more so, as I’m not giving up my offensive capabilities in order to breath a little easier.

What I’m saying is, if a system where people did not consider going through a dungeon in soldier gear “training wheels” could be put in place, where all that toughness and vitality could translate into abilities which would help actually defend the group or interefere with the enemy in some manner. Creating bosses that are immune to critical hits is also not what I would consider a viable solution. Armor is never the problem, encounter design and a system that does not want to fully commit to its own ideas are the issue here.

I’m also not a big fan of a lot of the traits available to the classes, but that’s another matter. Also note that most of this argument applies to how PVE works. PVP is not my forte, and I cannot comment on possible imbalances this would bring.

TLDR; Make other stats more useful to ability effectiveness or get rid of the stats entirely.

IndigoSundown.5419:

juno.1840:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem is failing to let go of the idea (picked up in other games) that gear determines your role in the game. GW2 was designed so that dedicated roles are not a thing in PvE. Gear is just another aspect of the character building system, not a determining factor.

So zerker is meaningless for DPS?

I think what you said is more true for GW2 than say WoW, but gearing is still impactful on your role. So you could wear Giver’s armor for DPS and yeah you could still DPS but you wouldn’t be as good as a character in Zerker’s.

Relative levels of effectiveness aside, GW2 is designed so that everyone in any build can and probably does do damage. Damage is not a role, it’s something that everyone does. In the same way, support is not a role, nor is control. You can enter an encounter prepared to provide more of A, B or C. You can also restrict yourself to mostly A, B or C. That’s a viable — but certainly not optimal — choice.

I wish ANet had not removed the old blog on healing. It was the source of the “GW2 trinity” assumptions. What it actually said was something more along the lines of damage, support and control being things that players do during the natural course of play. It certainly did not promise dedicated roles, yet that’s what most of the posts like the OP’s are really about.

I agree with everything you wrote — it’s the lack of roles that many people find disappointing. Roles required a minimum of teamwork to execute. You can use the Trinity as a classic example of roles, or create a new set of roles. It doesn’t matter, it’s the point that roles add depth to the game. It’s not as satisfying without them.

The combat system in GW2 is nice (best in any MMO I’ve seen) but it is quite shallow. There’s little complexity or depth to it. The lack of roles and required team work contributes heavily to this result.

You can execute combos as a team but they are hardly required, and definitely not necessary for success. If they were, it would enforce a degree of team work and coordination that would be very rewarding upon success. Some teams would fail (and should) but that’s the nature of challenging and rewarding content.

juno.1840:

IndigoSundown.5419:

juno.1840:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem is failing to let go of the idea (picked up in other games) that gear determines your role in the game. GW2 was designed so that dedicated roles are not a thing in PvE. Gear is just another aspect of the character building system, not a determining factor.

So zerker is meaningless for DPS?

I think what you said is more true for GW2 than say WoW, but gearing is still impactful on your role. So you could wear Giver’s armor for DPS and yeah you could still DPS but you wouldn’t be as good as a character in Zerker’s.

Relative levels of effectiveness aside, GW2 is designed so that everyone in any build can and probably does do damage. Damage is not a role, it’s something that everyone does. In the same way, support is not a role, nor is control. You can enter an encounter prepared to provide more of A, B or C. You can also restrict yourself to mostly A, B or C. That’s a viable — but certainly not optimal — choice.

I wish ANet had not removed the old blog on healing. It was the source of the “GW2 trinity” assumptions. What it actually said was something more along the lines of damage, support and control being things that players do during the natural course of play. It certainly did not promise dedicated roles, yet that’s what most of the posts like the OP’s are really about.

I agree with everything you wrote — it’s the lack of roles that many people find disappointing. Roles required a minimum of teamwork to execute. You can use the Trinity as a classic example of roles, or create a new set of roles. It doesn’t matter, it’s the point that roles add depth to the game. It’s not as satisfying without them.

The combat system in GW2 is nice (best in any MMO I’ve seen) but it is quite shallow. There’s little complexity or depth to it. The lack of roles and required team work contributes heavily to this result.

You can execute combos as a team but they are hardly required, and definitely not necessary for success. If they were, it would enforce a degree of team work and coordination that would be very rewarding upon success. Some teams would fail (and should) but that’s the nature of challenging and rewarding content.

I agree with most of what you said except the lack of role, there is role in GW2, they aren’t necessary but they exist.

When I join a party, I expect the guardian to use Aegis, Reflect, condi cleanse just like I expected my tank to keep the aggro, it’s a different role, but it’s still one. I expect my warrior to run Banners, give might and fury. Thief using stealth, blind, blasting combo field etc. Instead of being forced into a healer, tank, dps role, you choose which class you want to play which role. Right now every class can be useful (except maybe necro which aren’t as useful as other classes)

Teamwork is useful in gw2 to be efficient, most people won’t like the example I’m about to post but look at how everyone know what they have to do, Warrior CC’ing abomination, thief using black powder, everyone throwing a blast, guardian using reflect and aegis at the right time, elementalist using swirling winds. The amout of coordination in this run is insane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmmBAQzfSF4

GW2 Trinity, well, for PvE, due to huge majority of mobs use same design and are Trash mobs too.

• High HP is used as buffer for higher rank mobs, to create difficulty, but they still melt under berserker Direct Dmg zergs. Unfortunately this reduces effectiviness of Condition dmg.
• Spike dmg is common attack for many mobs, they hit hard with single attacks but majority of mobs attack once every 3-5 seconds.
• Abilities are same as mosquito bites, most mobs abilities cannot even down players who stand and attack them, so players are not required to use most mechanics or dodge. Mobs also don’t use enough boons that could change the pace of the combat, so Boon/Condition manipulations are also in heavy disuse.
• NoRank, Veterans and Elites are trash mobs, Veterans and Elites might hit harder but still have the low/0 resistance against Direct Dmg, good way to limit other builds usefulness, by limiting the true long duration combat scenarios to Champions and higher ranks…
• Extremely low/0 armor, which main weakness is Direct Dmg. Usually HP is upped as buffer for mob rank ups, which reduces the effectiveness of Condition dmg…

• Regarding Ranks, I suspect ranks increase mob stats with multipliers, so near 0 number stats will never rise up enough.

Because mobs melt way too fast under Direct Dmg DPS builds with Berserker, this will always destroy the potential long durationcombat scenarios that any other build are designed for.

99% of PvE is “SUPER EASY MODE” quick combat with Full Berserker, support is not always required, especially in huge zergs, as support effects are mostly limited to 5 allies at a time, so they don’t affect majority of the zerg for most of the time.

Of all the PvE content, ones that creates long duration combat scenarios, is only 1%, these are the places where non-DPS builds will create results that can match DPS builds. This is too small fraction of all PvE content for other builds, when compared to Direct Dmg DPS builds viability for all PvE content…

If ANet would update the huge majority of mobs to have variety, give Veterans and Elites abilities of higher ranks but as toned-down versions.

NoRank mobs can play the role of Trash mobs, but they too should have some stat variety too, to create situations where there’s need for dodging, traits, other utilities and even control effects, instead of just blindly hitting the mob and hoping it dies before it kills the player.

Good examples of more varied mob design are Mordrem so far, full DPS berserker is near suicide against them, solo or group.
Veteran Karka offers the only mob that uses boons for best effect.
Giant Beetles offer the best target for general use of Control effects, and are not Champions for a good reason.

Well, unfortunately I don’t expect this kind of change any time soon. But I keep on wishing they update the mobs accordingly some day, so we can play any build and create results that match DPS builds then.

Optional right now, means “Useless for majority of content”…

A take on GW2 Trinity:

• DPS can provide support and Control, but they focus solely on DPS, while effects of Control and Support are less potent. This is DPS role.
• Support can deal damage and Control, but they focus solely on Support, while effects of DPS and Control are less potent. This is Support role.
• Control can deal damage and provide support, but they focus solely on Control, while effects of DPS and Support are less potent. This is Control role.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Good examples of more varied mob design are Mordrem so far[…]

I don’t find high damage attacks and retaliation more varied. Bad players still find it hard, decent and good ones still breeze trough it.

All three roles matter in PvP. That isn’t the case in PvE. It could be the case in PvE if they would do skill splits. That won’t ever happen though.

Allelya.6830:

Quoting Brother Grimm “running proper builds”

They said we wouldn’t have to worry about cookie cutter builds. That’s all there ever is. It’s this build or you’re bad, get out. Really sick of this mentality and the fact that the game requires it.

Traits do make a huge difference.
zerker gear is without doubt best stat, because a corpse wont attack you (dont bring up undead, i’m not including those in my umbrella term corpse).

If LEARNING content, go for knights. You’ll take more aggro, which is good for you learning. Also transitioning to zerker becomes easier.

IF however you don’t want “meta” we should have no gear or trait options at all. Then there won’t be a “best is slot” type of situation.
So.. no armor stats, no weapon stats, no sigils, no runes, no traits. Is this really what you want?

FrostSpectre.4198:

Good examples of more varied mob design are Mordrem so far, full DPS berserker is near suicide against them, solo or group.

That is more learn to dodge, learn to avoid aoes, learn to get behind the mob so it can’t hit you, bring condi removal, etc.

Honestly it is only suicide if you expect the same type of fight as you do vs shatterer (afk auto attack fest). oddly enough you can move while attacking (unless 1h sword ranger, but lets not go there..).

The joys of a hidden learning curve so the game isn’t daunting to noobs ey?

Hannelore.8153:

Speedrunners do it for efficiency. But everyone does it just to get the thing to die while they sit drinking a coffee, chewing gum and pressing 1 repeatedly.

And that’s just dungeons, open world is downright unspeakable.

I can honestly say I’ve never once run a dungeon where someone was just pressing 1 repeatedly. World bosses definitely, but that is not exclusive to people in Zerker gear, pretty much the entire zerg mashes 1 for the majority of world boss fights, that’s a zerg mentality thing. But dungeons? I’ve never seen or heard of people doing that.

Frostspectre nailed it.

Einlanzer.1627:

Frostspectre nailed it.

yea, I kinda like frostspectre evaluation.

However, I want to mention that mobs also lack skill variety. Players have so many skills to shut down mobs, it is not even funny. There reflect for all range projectiles, stun breakers, blind and other cc. Even worse group condition removal. A group of 5 have way too many possibilities to defeat mobs. Mobs dont really have the ability to fight back.

I know anet can make unique mobs, look at the heart of the mist class npcs. They are more interesting to fight than majority of pve content.

However, i am happy he mention the new unique mob design of living story. At least Anet is trying.

Dalanor.5387:

FrostSpectre.4198:

Good examples of more varied mob design are Mordrem so far[…]

I don’t find high damage attacks and retaliation more varied. Bad players still find it hard, decent and good ones still breeze trough it.

They have more than just that, IMHO.

Mordrem Husk:
Trait: High Toughness
Result: Encourages conditions

Mordrem Wolf:
Trait: Exceedingly high damage when flanking
Result: Encourages control and positioning

Mordrem Leeching Thrasher:
Trait: AoE damage that heals proportionally to damage dealt
Result: Encourages poison, range, control, and positioning

Mordrem Vile Thrasher:
Trait: Leaves condition-dealing trail, takes more damage from behind
Result: Encourages condition removal, range, control, and positioning

Mordrem Vine:
Trait: Immobile, but long-range attacks
Result: Encourages melee in a roundabout way (You’ll get hit regardless, might as well be up close)

Your mileage may vary, but personally I found that they strongly encourage build diversity. Can you kill each of them as a cookie-cutter zerker warrior? Sure, if you play right. Is it easier to deal with ones suited to your build? Definitely.

Sylentir.8913:

Your mileage may vary, but personally I found that they strongly encourage build diversity. Can you kill each of them as a cookie-cutter zerker warrior? Sure, if you play right. Is it easier to deal with ones suited to your build? Definitely.

If i kill them with the same “cookie-cutter” build on zerker ele (see? im awsum!) how it encourage build diversity? They just blow up as every other mob except the ones with retaliation so i need to kill them one by one to not kill myself. Or just go down and lava font finishes the job anyway. =]
Or when the new inquest mobs get “better” AI and everybody praised how great they move away from the player. Yeah, great, 2 seconds later they come back to the meatgrinder anyway.

Trice.4598:

juno.1840:

IndigoSundown.5419:

juno.1840:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem is failing to let go of the idea (picked up in other games) that gear determines your role in the game. GW2 was designed so that dedicated roles are not a thing in PvE. Gear is just another aspect of the character building system, not a determining factor.

So zerker is meaningless for DPS?

I think what you said is more true for GW2 than say WoW, but gearing is still impactful on your role. So you could wear Giver’s armor for DPS and yeah you could still DPS but you wouldn’t be as good as a character in Zerker’s.

Relative levels of effectiveness aside, GW2 is designed so that everyone in any build can and probably does do damage. Damage is not a role, it’s something that everyone does. In the same way, support is not a role, nor is control. You can enter an encounter prepared to provide more of A, B or C. You can also restrict yourself to mostly A, B or C. That’s a viable — but certainly not optimal — choice.

I wish ANet had not removed the old blog on healing. It was the source of the “GW2 trinity” assumptions. What it actually said was something more along the lines of damage, support and control being things that players do during the natural course of play. It certainly did not promise dedicated roles, yet that’s what most of the posts like the OP’s are really about.

I agree with everything you wrote — it’s the lack of roles that many people find disappointing. Roles required a minimum of teamwork to execute. You can use the Trinity as a classic example of roles, or create a new set of roles. It doesn’t matter, it’s the point that roles add depth to the game. It’s not as satisfying without them.

The combat system in GW2 is nice (best in any MMO I’ve seen) but it is quite shallow. There’s little complexity or depth to it. The lack of roles and required team work contributes heavily to this result.

You can execute combos as a team but they are hardly required, and definitely not necessary for success. If they were, it would enforce a degree of team work and coordination that would be very rewarding upon success. Some teams would fail (and should) but that’s the nature of challenging and rewarding content.

I agree with most of what you said except the lack of role, there is role in GW2, they aren’t necessary but they exist.

When I join a party, I expect the guardian to use Aegis, Reflect, condi cleanse just like I expected my tank to keep the aggro, it’s a different role, but it’s still one. I expect my warrior to run Banners, give might and fury. Thief using stealth, blind, blasting combo field etc. Instead of being forced into a healer, tank, dps role, you choose which class you want to play which role. Right now every class can be useful (except maybe necro which aren’t as useful as other classes)

Teamwork is useful in gw2 to be efficient, most people won’t like the example I’m about to post but look at how everyone know what they have to do, Warrior CC’ing abomination, thief using black powder, everyone throwing a blast, guardian using reflect and aegis at the right time, elementalist using swirling winds. The amout of coordination in this run is insane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmmBAQzfSF4

Exactly my point — the roles aren’t necessary. As a result, role-based team coordination is not required. Some situations require team work like the platforms in a dredge fractals for example. Those are great imho because it requires something other than mindless key mashing.

I love the combat system in GW2, I just think it’s shallow without the required roles.

juno.1840:

Trice.4598:

juno.1840:

IndigoSundown.5419:

juno.1840:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem is failing to let go of the idea (picked up in other games) that gear determines your role in the game. GW2 was designed so that dedicated roles are not a thing in PvE. Gear is just another aspect of the character building system, not a determining factor.

So zerker is meaningless for DPS?

I think what you said is more true for GW2 than say WoW, but gearing is still impactful on your role. So you could wear Giver’s armor for DPS and yeah you could still DPS but you wouldn’t be as good as a character in Zerker’s.

Relative levels of effectiveness aside, GW2 is designed so that everyone in any build can and probably does do damage. Damage is not a role, it’s something that everyone does. In the same way, support is not a role, nor is control. You can enter an encounter prepared to provide more of A, B or C. You can also restrict yourself to mostly A, B or C. That’s a viable — but certainly not optimal — choice.

I wish ANet had not removed the old blog on healing. It was the source of the “GW2 trinity” assumptions. What it actually said was something more along the lines of damage, support and control being things that players do during the natural course of play. It certainly did not promise dedicated roles, yet that’s what most of the posts like the OP’s are really about.

I agree with everything you wrote — it’s the lack of roles that many people find disappointing. Roles required a minimum of teamwork to execute. You can use the Trinity as a classic example of roles, or create a new set of roles. It doesn’t matter, it’s the point that roles add depth to the game. It’s not as satisfying without them.

The combat system in GW2 is nice (best in any MMO I’ve seen) but it is quite shallow. There’s little complexity or depth to it. The lack of roles and required team work contributes heavily to this result.

You can execute combos as a team but they are hardly required, and definitely not necessary for success. If they were, it would enforce a degree of team work and coordination that would be very rewarding upon success. Some teams would fail (and should) but that’s the nature of challenging and rewarding content.

I agree with most of what you said except the lack of role, there is role in GW2, they aren’t necessary but they exist.

When I join a party, I expect the guardian to use Aegis, Reflect, condi cleanse just like I expected my tank to keep the aggro, it’s a different role, but it’s still one. I expect my warrior to run Banners, give might and fury. Thief using stealth, blind, blasting combo field etc. Instead of being forced into a healer, tank, dps role, you choose which class you want to play which role. Right now every class can be useful (except maybe necro which aren’t as useful as other classes)

Teamwork is useful in gw2 to be efficient, most people won’t like the example I’m about to post but look at how everyone know what they have to do, Warrior CC’ing abomination, thief using black powder, everyone throwing a blast, guardian using reflect and aegis at the right time, elementalist using swirling winds. The amout of coordination in this run is insane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmmBAQzfSF4

Exactly my point — the roles aren’t necessary. As a result, role-based team coordination is not required. Some situations require team work like the platforms in a dredge fractals for example. Those are great imho because it requires something other than mindless key mashing.

I love the combat system in GW2, I just think it’s shallow without the required roles.

Casuals (not as an offensive word now) already complain a lot about the combat (see this thread). If you make these existing roles required basically you make everything else truly obsolete but berserkers and kazuls would flip the table. And unable to do the content. They already can’t manage half of that, what would happen if a fight requires high uptime and capped might, vuln, other conditions, proper aegis rotation, whatnot?
Well it was a little exaggeration but you get my point.

Dalanor.5387:

Casuals (not as an offensive word now) already complain a lot about the combat (see this thread). If you make these existing roles required basically you make everything else truly obsolete but berserkers and kazuls would flip the table. And unable to do the content. They already can’t manage half of that, what would happen if a fight requires high uptime and capped might, vuln, other conditions, proper aegis rotation, whatnot?
Well it was a little exaggeration but you get my point.

Yep I totally get it, and it’s why combat will always be less satisfying than say LotRO or even WoW (how old is that now?). I’m still waiting for some developer to create an MMO with a combat system as fluid as GW2’s but with the depth from one of these classic games. Archeage could have been that game as it has some GW1 aspects which are really cool… but there are other mechanics dragging it down (lag, server queues, kill tagging, etc). It’s only a “few weeks old” though so maybe in two years (same amount of time as GW2) it might be epic.