Guild Wars 2

I’m feeling pretty fed up with this game atm, because it seems that instead of actually making the game hard by making people actually use individual tactics, they are making it hard through “commanding” 100+ people who either don’t care or have no clue what they are doing. But I gave up on getting this point across during the Teq BS event, clearly making the game hard for the individual instead of the group isn’t an ability the ANET team has anymore. FYI I played some GW1 with a guildie the other day and even after 5k hours played I felt it still had more difficulty than GW2 has(at least when you aren’t using Heroes).

come on Vayne, I expect you of all people to understand percentages as a form of saying the majority, if I had concrete numbers I would submit data sources, seriously !

I think you and I are on the same page with some minor miscommunication issues here and there.

yes many people do not know how to play the game or do not want to get better because all they want is to have “fun”
“Fun” is a very subjective word and means something different to every single individual on earth.

the point I want to bring forward is this:
- If the majority of the game is made for casuals why the outcry about 2 pieces of content implemented to keep the more efficiency/hardcore focused players happy ?
- don’t they deserve to have their needs met some of the time ?
- in a whole year there have been 2 difficulty revamps out of all the biweekly updates that have been released over the past year and half.

- to me it is very simple, you want to participate in Raid level Boss fights you need to know and understand you have to bring your A game aka meta build and efficiency mentality.

Latinkuro.9420:

come on Vayne, I expect you of all people to understand percentages as a form of saying the majority, if I had concrete numbers I would submit data sources, seriously !

I think you and I are on the same page with some minor miscommunication issues here and there.

yes many people do not know how to play the game or do not want to get better because all they want is to have “fun”
“Fun” is a very subjective word and means something different to every single individual on earth.

the point I want to bring forward is this:
- If the majority of the game is made for casuals why the outcry about 2 pieces of content implemented to keep the more efficiency/hardcore focused players happy ?
- don’t they deserve to have their needs met some of the time ?
- in a whole year there have been 2 difficulty revamps out of all the biweekly updates that have been released over the past year and half.

- to me it is very simple, you want to participate in Raid level Boss fights you need to know and understand you have to bring your A game aka meta build and efficiency mentality.

I agree with everything but your last point. THat is to say, I think encounters can be designed to cater to both groups of players…but I also think it will take time for that to occur.

In the Teq fight there’s a zerg, but there are people on guns, which require skill and people defending them which requires skill.

The marionette fight is badly designed because it’s allowing anyone to be in a key position.

@ Vayne hmmm, the main culprit here is the word “meta” if they change the “meta” to include other builds besides DPS focused builds that’s the day when open world raiding will succeed.

Latinkuro.9420:

@ Vayne hmmm, the main culprit here is the word “meta” if they change the “meta” to include other builds besides DPS focused builds that’s the day when open world raiding will succeed.

In this game it’s called meta. In other games it’s called FotM. It happens in every game. I agree, 100% there needs to be more build variety. But they have, to some degree, already started addressing that.

So in the Tequatl fight, zerkers are pretty useless. He can’t be hit by crits. In the wurm fight, you need people with condition damage, because conditions do more damage to the husks.

It’s a learning process, and it’s taking time, because each major encounter takes so long to develop. But that doesn’t mean they’re not moving toward it.

Vayne.8563:

Latinkuro.9420:

@ Vayne hmmm, the main culprit here is the word “meta” if they change the “meta” to include other builds besides DPS focused builds that’s the day when open world raiding will succeed.

In this game it’s called meta. In other games it’s called FotM. It happens in every game. I agree, 100% there needs to be more build variety. But they have, to some degree, already started addressing that.

So in the Tequatl fight, zerkers are pretty useless. He can’t be hit by crits. In the wurm fight, you need people with condition damage, because conditions do more damage to the husks.

It’s a learning process, and it’s taking time, because each major encounter takes so long to develop. But that doesn’t mean they’re not moving toward it.

That said, even if they do include other builds, those builds will also have meta and efficiency factors, in that light I do not see why you do not agree with the fact efficiency and meta mentality will always be a part of this sort of content.

Think about it, if all of a sudden tanking became viable
would you bring a subpar tank ? or would you bring a meta tank focused on efficiency?

see, the efficiency and meta mentality just doesn’t go away no matter what kind of builds are included into the meta game.

Vayne.8563:

I agree with everything but your last point. THat is to say, I think encounters can be designed to cater to both groups of players…but I also think it will take time for that to occur.

The key word here is encounter

open world, dungeon encounters should be designed for just about every one to be able to beat them so designing it for min/max players is a bad idea.

the problem is raid boss encounters, cannot be designed for any subpar or inefficient build
here’s why:

- the very definition of Raiding brings up the mentality of extremely difficult content.
- if a subpar build can beat it than it would be considered to easy for any min/max player.
this is why meta’s exist and keep changing as things get nerffed or buffed aka fotm
- anything your class can do some other class can do it better, why would you bring say a tank spec warrior when a guardian can do it so much better ?
why would you bring a condition spec ranger when a necro or engineer can do it so much better ? these are just examples please don’t take them to literal.

Latinkuro.9420:

Vayne.8563:

Latinkuro.9420:

@ Vayne hmmm, the main culprit here is the word “meta” if they change the “meta” to include other builds besides DPS focused builds that’s the day when open world raiding will succeed.

In this game it’s called meta. In other games it’s called FotM. It happens in every game. I agree, 100% there needs to be more build variety. But they have, to some degree, already started addressing that.

So in the Tequatl fight, zerkers are pretty useless. He can’t be hit by crits. In the wurm fight, you need people with condition damage, because conditions do more damage to the husks.

It’s a learning process, and it’s taking time, because each major encounter takes so long to develop. But that doesn’t mean they’re not moving toward it.

That said, even if they do include other builds, those builds will also have meta and efficiency factors, in that light I do not see why you do not agree with the fact efficiency and meta mentality will always be a part of this sort of content.

Think about it, if all of a sudden tanking became viable
would you bring a subpar tank ? or would you bring a meta tank focused on efficiency?

see, the efficiency and meta mentality just doesn’t go away no matter what kind of builds are included into the meta game.

I think you’re looking at traditional raids, but not open world content. Think of a huge mega store. You need to hire 100 people. You’re not going to find 100 awesome hard workers. You’ll get a tiny percentage of self-starting manager types who want to do the right thing. A small percentage of ambitious guys who only want to get ahead no matter what. And most of the people want to do the job and go home. And a few people will want to not do the job but get paid anyway.

When you have an encounter like these big world events, you STILL will need bodies. So you have to have roles for people who really do carry the event forward, but if you want to get enough people to do it, you’re not likely to field 100 guys like that.

Raids were the same way. Do you remember 40 man raids. Five guys knew what was going on, five guys were really good and followed directions and you had to hit the other 30 people over the head repeatedly to get them to stay out of red circles.

This isn’t really much different.

I never liked 40 man raids, for that exact reason I don’t like carrying dead weight whose only purpose is to lower my RNG % chances of getting something good at the end.

it’s a lot more difficult to do with active defense, twitch response and all.

I would love to see some encounter’s a la vindictus or Tera.
if they can do it, I’m sure a.net can do it to, it’s just a matter of time before they learn.

I’m not saying those games do it perfectly but some of those vindictus encounters are absolutely amazing, and there are no red circles to tell you where and when it will land more skill play.

Latinkuro.9420:

I never liked 40 man raids, for that exact reason I don’t like carrying dead weight whose only purpose is to lower my RNG % chances of getting something good at the end.

it’s a lot more difficult to do with active defense, twitch response and all.

I would love to see some encounter’s a la vindictus or Tera.
if they can do it, I’m sure a.net can do it to, it’s just a matter of time before they learn.

I’m not saying those games do it perfectly but some of those vindictus encounters are absolutely amazing, and there are no red circles to tell you where and when it will land more skill play.

The most skilled content of difficult games is done by a vast minority of players. Why put time and effort into something for 5 or 10 %?

Vayne.8563:

Beldin.5498:

Jim Hunter.6821:

I’m pretty sure the only ones that are against having both options are the people on the open world side because they’re afraid they won’t be able to find a big enough zerg to spam 1 with.

If you spam 1 constantly you should know that you can activate auto-attack with ctrl-leftclick.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Auto-attack

Don’t know how I missed this comment.

No Jim, that’s not true. I can beat instances, and I can raid. I do just fine in dungeons and fractals.

But I didn’t buy this game to play instances. I’ve always wanted an MMO that was more about the open world.

And if you think you can just spam 1 in open world fights and win, I invite you to try the new jungle wurm encounter.

Yes there is plenty of content where spamming 1 does work. There’s also some content where it doesn’t.

I think you didn’t got the hidden message in what i said.

The “spamming #1” is a kind of insult, while nobody really spams #1 besides maybe when your between head and claw of Jormag, but sadly most people still don’t get that even if you tell it 100 times in chat.

Vayne.8563:

The most skilled content of difficult games is done by a vast minority of players. Why put time and effort into something for 5 or 10 %?

- because even though they are indeed the minority, they also deserve to be catered to from time to time.
- they may be the minority, but they also help identify what is overpowered and what is underpowered.
- they are the one the ones the general player base looks to for builds, guides etc.
so you see that 5-10% of the population may be a minority but they are needed.
- 2 updates out of 20+ in a year for targeting them seems to me like a very good compromise.

Latinkuro.9420:

Vayne.8563:

The most skilled content of difficult games is done by a vast minority of players. Why put time and effort into something for 5 or 10 %?

- because even though they are indeed the minority, they also deserve to be catered to from time to time.
- they may be the minority, but they also help identify what is overpowered and what is underpowered.
- they are the one the ones the general player base looks to for builds, guides etc.
so you see that 5-10% of the population may be a minority but they are needed.
- 2 updates out of 20+ in a year for targeting them seems to me like a very good compromise.

No one “deserves” to be catered too. Businesses are businesses…in business to make money. If you have a dish that’s not selling particularly well in a restaurant and it costs more to make because you’re running special equiptment, you’d stop making it…even if five guys didn’t come in.

The bottom line is taking development time away from everyone else to cater to the 5% strikes me as bad business..but it’s worse.

Because that 5% is going to beat that content and want MORE content. And they’ll often beat it faster than everyone else.

So if Anet can make content that caters to that 5% and STILL allows others to participate (TTS has Tequatl on farm), then why shouldn’t they?

The 5% get the harder battle and the coordination but more people that aren’t in the 5% have something to do too.

Some would call that a win win.

This game doesn’t have enough developers and development hours to just cater to one group at a time, unless it’s a very large group. So they try to create content that both the majority and that group can both enjoy.

They’ve met mixed success so far, but they’re learning.

I do agree with that, but you’re missing the point it is bad business for them to ignore that 5-10%
they may be a minority but they help drive the game forward on social media more than any other casual player ever would, make them mad and they get very vocal which is bad for their business, so you see keeping them happy is also good for business.

EDIT:
The bottom line is taking development time away from everyone else to cater to the 5% strikes me as bad business..but it’s worse.

you do remember there are 4 live teams right ?
how is 2 out of 20+ updates taking away from casual content development ?
I’m starting to get the idea you just might hate hardcore/efficient players.

Latinkuro.9420:

I do agree with that, but you’re missing the point it is bad business for them to ignore that 5-10%
they may be a minority but they help drive the game forward on social media more than any other casual player ever would, make them mad and they get very vocal which is bad for their business, so you see keeping them happy is also good for business.

But that’s my point. They’re NOT ignoring 5-10% (or whatever the percentage is). They ARE making harder content. They’re not putting it instances.

If they have to make something to cater to that 5-10% that ecludes 90-95%, one would think that’s bad business.

Because there is only so much development time. It’s called a compromise.

Until I stop getting booted from my home server to overflow where you stand an exponentially lower chance of success due to 1. lowered coordination or 2. simply an inability to achieve numbers. I would prefer some of the events moved to instances or a server priority code put in place.

If I’m on my home server; I should have priority for events on that server and non-grouped people guesting over should be punted to overflow.

Vayne.8563:

No one “deserves” to be catered too. Businesses are businesses

hmmm, you’re starting to contradict yourself mate

Khai.6435:

Until I stop getting booted from my home server to overflow where you stand an exponentially lower chance of success due to 1. lowered coordination or 2. simply an inability to achieve numbers. I would prefer some of the events moved to instances or a server priority code put in place.

If I’m on my home server; I should have priority for events on that server and non-grouped people guesting over should be punted to overflow.

I loved the idea of open world Raiding, I was utterly excited by it till….
I couldn’t get onto my home server’s bloodtide coast map for 3 days straight
add to that the random disconnects and no priority for home players and I was screaming for instanced Raiding the reasons why every other game does instanced large scale group content became fairly obvious at that point.

Latinkuro.9420:

Vayne.8563:

No one “deserves” to be catered too. Businesses are businesses

hmmm, you’re starting to contradict yourself mate

Nah the word deserves is the problem there. Businesses don’t give you stuff because you “deserve it”. They give you stuff because it makes them money. It’s not a “right”.

Khai.6435:

Until I stop getting booted from my home server to overflow where you stand an exponentially lower chance of success due to 1. lowered coordination or 2. simply an inability to achieve numbers. I would prefer some of the events moved to instances or a server priority code put in place.

If I’m on my home server; I should have priority for events on that server and non-grouped people guesting over should be punted to overflow.

Yep, this MUST be fixed.

One of the biggest complaints about this game is the lack of endgame content. How would designing content for the very vocal 5-10% percent (if that’s all it is) that want that be bad business? Knowing there is endgame content would give a lot of people a reason to play and/or keep playing this game.

And I’m sorry but people on their home servers should not get priority over people guesting. People have to guest because there are a bunch of dead servers that need to be merged. If they are willing to sit and wait in the zone longer than you than they should get priority. Or better yet, they could just add an instanced version of the content and really solve the problem.

Having end game content wouldnt keep me playing this game with its poor coding and being kicked all the time because i take 1 too many waypoints or I just stand in Lions Arch. If I wanted large scale world events I would just play Rift. You can join raid groups out in the world without saying “lfg”, theres a trinity so theres some control over the encounter and they can add in a lot more mechanics, the events are usually zone wide where you have to sometimes man turrets in different parts to bring a dragon minion down and they announce what and where events are according to your level.

Truthfully there shouldnt be any overflow servers and GW2 has gotten a lot of flack about it since the game launched. Their servers arent that great, their coding sucks, the living story and major events like Teq are getting quite a bit of bad reviews and people arent able to play with their guild or friends and its called Guild Wars for crying out loud. I guess I’ll just have to wait for an expansion to come out to fix everything because its not going to be fixed in game any time soon.

Jongi.7612:

Having end game content wouldnt keep me playing this game with its poor coding and being kicked all the time because i take 1 too many waypoints or I just stand in Lions Arch. If I wanted large scale world events I would just play Rift. You can join raid groups out in the world without saying “lfg”, theres a trinity so theres some control over the encounter and they can add in a lot more mechanics, the events are usually zone wide where you have to sometimes man turrets in different parts to bring a dragon minion down and they announce what and where events are according to your level.

Truthfully there shouldnt be any overflow servers and GW2 has gotten a lot of flack about it since the game launched. Their servers arent that great, their coding sucks, the living story and major events like Teq are getting quite a bit of bad reviews and people arent able to play with their guild or friends and its called Guild Wars for crying out loud. I guess I’ll just have to wait for an expansion to come out to fix everything because its not going to be fixed in game any time soon.

See, I felt that way about Rift. There was nothing there that would keep me playing that game. I thought it was godawful. I leveled to characters to max level and the thought of even playing one of them bores me to tears.

Guess that’s why many games are made. Different people have different preferences.

Vayne.8563:

Jongi.7612:

Having end game content wouldnt keep me playing this game with its poor coding and being kicked all the time because i take 1 too many waypoints or I just stand in Lions Arch. If I wanted large scale world events I would just play Rift. You can join raid groups out in the world without saying “lfg”, theres a trinity so theres some control over the encounter and they can add in a lot more mechanics, the events are usually zone wide where you have to sometimes man turrets in different parts to bring a dragon minion down and they announce what and where events are according to your level.

Truthfully there shouldnt be any overflow servers and GW2 has gotten a lot of flack about it since the game launched. Their servers arent that great, their coding sucks, the living story and major events like Teq are getting quite a bit of bad reviews and people arent able to play with their guild or friends and its called Guild Wars for crying out loud. I guess I’ll just have to wait for an expansion to come out to fix everything because its not going to be fixed in game any time soon.

See, I felt that way about Rift. There was nothing there that would keep me playing that game. I thought it was godawful. I leveled to characters to max level and the thought of even playing one of them bores me to tears.

Guess that’s why many games are made. Different people have different preferences.

Honestly, at least as far as open world "raids’ are concerned, the two aren’t that different. I remember many invasions in Rift being about as poorly attended as Teq is on FC. What was less apparent on Rift was that the invasion was going to fail — and when it’s just three players and Teq, imminent failure is readily discernible. I don’t remember guesting in Rift, nor an overflow mechanic — though those mechanics have their downsides as well as their upsides.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Jongi.7612:

Having end game content wouldnt keep me playing this game with its poor coding and being kicked all the time because i take 1 too many waypoints or I just stand in Lions Arch. If I wanted large scale world events I would just play Rift. You can join raid groups out in the world without saying “lfg”, theres a trinity so theres some control over the encounter and they can add in a lot more mechanics, the events are usually zone wide where you have to sometimes man turrets in different parts to bring a dragon minion down and they announce what and where events are according to your level.

Truthfully there shouldnt be any overflow servers and GW2 has gotten a lot of flack about it since the game launched. Their servers arent that great, their coding sucks, the living story and major events like Teq are getting quite a bit of bad reviews and people arent able to play with their guild or friends and its called Guild Wars for crying out loud. I guess I’ll just have to wait for an expansion to come out to fix everything because its not going to be fixed in game any time soon.

See, I felt that way about Rift. There was nothing there that would keep me playing that game. I thought it was godawful. I leveled to characters to max level and the thought of even playing one of them bores me to tears.

Guess that’s why many games are made. Different people have different preferences.

Honestly, at least as far as open world "raids’ are concerned, the two aren’t that different. I remember many invasions in Rift being about as poorly attended as Teq is on FC. What was less apparent on Rift was that the invasion was going to fail — and when it’s just three players and Teq, imminent failure is readily discernible. I don’t remember guesting in Rift, nor an overflow mechanic — though those mechanics have their downsides as well as their upsides.

No Rift didn’t have a guesting or overflow server. What it had instead was a once a week free transfer to any server, with the busiest servers experiencing login in waits at peak times. That is, you’d try to log in and you’d sit in a queue and wait to get in. On weekends those queues could get quite long.

I transferred to Corthana off a busier server, because I was tired of waiting an hour or more in a queue just to start playing. The problem was the population on Corthana was very low and we never got any events done.

Rift, back when I played it, had two kinds of events, Rifts which were all roughly the same, and zone wide events. Events in Rift didn’t chain, didn’t really tell stories. Didn’t really affect the world.

In fact, if an invasion in Rift was successful, the creatures invading despawned in an hour whether players did anything or not. Truth is, the dynamic events in Rift, not including zone wide events, were not all that interesting to me. The zone wide events, which reminded me a bit of Scarlet events, I did like. However, no one ever did them on my server, so there was no point in doing them.

And they happened so often, that they often interfered with other things I wanted to do.

The Teq fight is one event out of 1500. One meta zone event out of 30 or so.

It doesn’t matter if people are or aren’t doing Teq (and people are, because TTS does exist), because there are 28 other metas that get done.

Even the Karka Queen, which everyone complained wasn’t being done at all, gets done on my server pretty frequently.

Hello,

As this thread has derailed with off-topic posting, it is now closed.

Thank you for your understanding.