PLEASE make condition builds USEFUL in PvE
Nope, they won’t. They don’t want those changes in PvP, for ArenaNet PvP is more important than PvE (because they still have that “LOL E-Sport!” dream, regardless of how dead the PvP community is), and so ArenaNet won’t make different versions of fundamental game mechanics.
regardless of how dead the PvP community is
Seems pretty alive to me.
for ArenaNet PvP is more important than PvE
Evidently not as most of the new content and focus always goes to PvE.
~Sincerely, Scissors
To be honest the easier change would be to increase the bleed caps based on enemy rank.
Give Veterans, Champions, etc different bleeds caps.
This would not change sPvP at all while fixing a lot for pve.
But then again Anet did nothing for 3 years so its rather obvious that dont give a kitten about conditions for pve.
I’ve been playing a condition build since release and love it. Yeah it needs tweaking and buffing but I have always felt that I am contributing and have been told as much from the people I have played with. It’s also great solo. The only time it’s a hindrance is in boss zergs which are broke as crap anyway, unless you call 30+ players standing in one spot spamming ranged skills fun.
Point being conditions are far from useless, your just caught up in the DPS meta mentality that can be quite easily ignored.
To be honest the easier change would be to increase the bleed caps based on enemy rank.
Give Veterans, Champions, etc different bleeds caps.
This would not change sPvP at all while fixing a lot for pve.But then again Anet did nothing for 3 years so its rather obvious that dont give a kitten about conditions for pve.
So, absence of evidence is the evidence of absence? This expansion must have been a rush job since they were doing nothing for three years prior like so many people claimed. I mean they didn’t tell us about it before the official announcement so it didn’t exist.
I get it. You want results and you want them now. If only development worked that way, we’d all be a little less grumpy.
So, absence of evidence is the evidence of absence?
Rikkiti: “Yes.. no.. what?”
~Sincerely, Scissors
To be honest the easier change would be to increase the bleed caps based on enemy rank.
Give Veterans, Champions, etc different bleeds caps.
This would not change sPvP at all while fixing a lot for pve.But then again Anet did nothing for 3 years so its rather obvious that dont give a kitten about conditions for pve.
So, absence of evidence is the evidence of absence? This expansion must have been a rush job since they were doing nothing for three years prior like so many people claimed. I mean they didn’t tell us about it before the official announcement so it didn’t exist.
I get it. You want results and you want them now. If only development worked that way, we’d all be a little less grumpy.
Do you really think that a “problem” that was here since release is really something anet considers worth fixing?
I know that development takes time. But its been 3 years and there wasnt even any sort of communication that indicates Anet has this on the radar and is working on it.
There is literally no reason to believe that Anet is doing anything to fix conditions for pve. If you can post a link to a devblog or something that would be nice, because I want conditions to be viable.
(I went for a Rampager build on my Warrior right after release, unaware thats this buils is 100% inferior to Berserker in any situation and have basically stopped playing my Warrior ever since because I like the playstyle, but its not viable)
But just saying that its going to be fixed with nothing to show for it is, well lets say bold.
And yes the fact that there is nothing to suggest that anet is working on this is evidence that Anet either doesnt seem to care about it, that they have no idea how to fix it, or that Anet is seriously terrible at communicating.
(edited by Arkinos.7245)
I actually opened a discussion which only 2 people replied to it regarding conditions with the upcoming expansion: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Conditions-in-HoT/first#post4839366
In it I wrote the 2 issues that are probably the most important regarding conditions(there are probably more but those 2 are most important).
You can go to it and discuss solutions or whateve you want there.
for ArenaNet PvP is more important than PvE
Evidently not as most of the new content and focus always goes to PvE.
For content, they focus on pve because that how they get people to buy gems, for skill balancing, it is almost 100% pvp related. And they are horrible at that.
Only pve focused skill balance was the ferocity change that was suppose to help cap the insane damage done by zerkers, but it actually buffed zerker damage in 95% of the game because it fixed crit dmage scaling at sub lvl 80 areas.
Anet fails at balancing when they argue that zerker should do the most damage because it is all offense, but doesn’t fix rampager, assassin and sinister stat combos (all offense only combos) so they are on par with zerker.
Do you really think that a “problem” that was here since release is really something anet considers worth fixing?
I know that development takes time. But its been 3 years and there wasnt even any sort of communication that indicates Anet has this on the radar and is working on it.
There is literally no reason to believe that Anet is doing anything to fix conditions for pve. If you can post a link to a devblog or something that would be nice, because I want conditions to be viable.
(I went for a Rampager build on my Warrior right after release, unaware thats this buils is 100% inferior to Berserker in any situation and have basically stopped playing my Warrior ever since because I like the playstyle, but its not viable)But just saying that its going to be fixed with nothing to show for it is, well lets say bold.
And yes the fact that there is nothing to suggest that anet is working on this is evidence that Anet either doesnt seem to care about it, that they have no idea how to fix it, or that Anet is seriously terrible at communicating.
This isn’t the first time your position has been mentioned to the devs.
“I certainly agree that we need to improve effectiveness of condition damage builds against objects. We have some ideas, but none of them are simple and easy to implement/test. Rest assured it is something we recognize as a problem.
Jon (Peters) " From 2012
“Actually…(condition damage) is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.
Jon (Peters)" From 2013_
It is what it is. You are talking about core combat mechanics and stuff that’s under the hood. Other mmos have taken years to implement balance changes, even stuff that might seem simple to us. I personally feel this is no different. They haven’t made any promises so I don’t really know what else to say. Would you like them to offer you a firm date on when they can fix it?
for skill balancing, it is almost 100% pvp related. And they are horrible at that.
Because they refuse to seperate pvp and pve balancing, like they did in gw1. As long as pvp and pve balance isn’t seperated, we will never even get close to balance.
~Sincerely, Scissors
Do you really think that a “problem” that was here since release is really something anet considers worth fixing?
I know that development takes time. But its been 3 years and there wasnt even any sort of communication that indicates Anet has this on the radar and is working on it.
There is literally no reason to believe that Anet is doing anything to fix conditions for pve. If you can post a link to a devblog or something that would be nice, because I want conditions to be viable.
(I went for a Rampager build on my Warrior right after release, unaware thats this buils is 100% inferior to Berserker in any situation and have basically stopped playing my Warrior ever since because I like the playstyle, but its not viable)But just saying that its going to be fixed with nothing to show for it is, well lets say bold.
And yes the fact that there is nothing to suggest that anet is working on this is evidence that Anet either doesnt seem to care about it, that they have no idea how to fix it, or that Anet is seriously terrible at communicating.This isn’t the first time your position has been mentioned to the devs.
“I certainly agree that we need to improve effectiveness of condition damage builds against objects. We have some ideas, but none of them are simple and easy to implement/test. Rest assured it is something we recognize as a problem.
Jon (Peters) " From 2012
“Actually…(condition damage) is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.
Jon (Peters)" From 2013_
It is what it is. You are talking about core combat mechanics and stuff that’s under the hood. Other mmos have taken years to implement balance changes, even stuff that might seem simple to us. I personally feel this is no different. They haven’t made any promises so I don’t really know what else to say. Would you like them to offer you a firm date on when they can fix it?
So they worked on this 3 years ago, and still havent figured out anything?
But ok I was wrong.
Arenanet isnt indifferent about this (or at least pretend to be), they are incompetent and cant find a solution.
Much better .
I like the idea of individual stacks of a condition per player.
So let’s use Bleeds as an example.
Upon the initial application of the bleed, you will only see your stacks while they build up, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. Upon reaching the maximum 25 stacks, you will see the number of max stacks per player.
Therefore, if 8 people have the maximum 25 stacks on the boss, you will see 8 represented on the general bleed icon on the boss.
This is also what is seen by anyone NOT applying bleeds.
A similar setup can be done for all conditions.
This will prevent too many icons on the boss and it will allow individual applications of separate conditions, ultimately removing the condition “cap” and making conditions viable.
This should be PvE only.
(edited by Jasher.6580)
Please stop making thread like this there is no chance they will made some radical change before HoT so this is pointless
Tekkit’s Workshop
Nope, they won’t. They don’t want those changes in PvP, for ArenaNet PvP is more important than PvE (because they still have that “LOL E-Sport!” dream, regardless of how dead the PvP community is), and so ArenaNet won’t make different versions of fundamental game mechanics.
I thought up a pretty kittening easy fix for this which won’t change balance in comparison because it will be active in ALL modes : Players gain an amount of X conditionresistance per bleeding/burn/etc. stack applied by different sources. The more stacks, the bigger the increase. Then ramp up the condition damage of certain mobs/turrets in PvE by a tiny bit. There, done. Same kittening thing in PvE and PvP (it is an incredibly stupid idea to not balance PvP differently, i mean they did it for AION and it works perfectly for kittens sake), conditions are now usefull in PvE while not breaking them in PvP. Whoop-di-kittening-do. Also, i don’t get the “but this would be busted in PvP mimimimimimi” anyway. There is not really a huge difference if theres 5 10-stacks of bleed ticking on you compared to five warris going Hundred Blades on your kitten . And even if there would, because some powerbuilds stack bleed on the side, or cele eles break it or whatever, my solution would take care of it. Now, can we please get this change after the “PvE and PvP shouldn’t be balanced differently” and “that would make condis in PvP/WvW so bust” issues are out of the way? I mean, Anet has created a legend for their new favourite child, the revenant, so we couldn’t have him useless in a major part of the game, now could we? If Anet is already trying their best to avoid any effort that it would take to properly balance things like other companies do EACH MONTH, SOMETIMES LESS, at least for that. Seriously they should go and let Digital Extremes (Case in Point : Warframe) show them how listening to player concerns and ideas and balancing are DONE. Even in League they at least TRY to balance the stuff out. While problems like useless PvE conditions, classes being useless in PvE, one playstyle dominating everything else, useless traits, garbage weapons that have a counterpart that is a lot better( in all points even )etc. have persisted for 2.5 years, and classes that finally saw some light with the few changes they got got nerfed into a worse state than they already were in.
/rant
To be honest the easier change would be to increase the bleed caps based on enemy rank.
Give Veterans, Champions, etc different bleeds caps.
This would not change sPvP at all while fixing a lot for pve.
This time a thousand!
Please stop making thread like this there is no chance they will made some radical change before HoT so this is pointless
Huh? Have you heard of stability/defiance change??
The Dhuumfire thread
To be honest the easier change would be to increase the bleed caps based on enemy rank.
Give Veterans, Champions, etc different bleeds caps.
This would not change sPvP at all while fixing a lot for pve.This time a thousand!
But that would be different balancing for PvE and PvP GASP we can’t have that! – Anet.
Allow individual applications of conditions per player on mobs.
Have you ever seen an MMO support thousands of conditions on a single target?
A 25 stack of bleeds is 25 different debuffs compacted into a single indicator. This is why the stack count can change as all those short bleeds fall off. Other MMOs will do the same thing to simply make it easier to see, however, when it comes to actual debuffs that stack, they are actually merged into a single debuff with a stack count. With that system, single stacks can’t fall off and instead, a single new application will keep the entire stack refreshed.
ArenaNet has probably gone through various potential fixes, but supporting an unlimited amount of debuffs simply isn’t possible because it’s too intensive. Other potential fixes would basically require rebalancing every skill and/or changing how conditions work entirely. If they wanted to be simple however, they could just make conditions that fall off deal a percentage of their damage immediately, but that would make certain things, like a zerg + fire fields, very powerful.
Any change that makes conditions better in a zerg will likely make conditions worse on an individual level.
Allow individual applications of conditions per player on mobs.
Have you ever seen an MMO support thousands of conditions on a single target?
Every other MMO that supports DoT DPS classes. Like literally EVERY other MMO.
To be honest the easier change would be to increase the bleed caps based on enemy rank.
Give Veterans, Champions, etc different bleeds caps.
This would not change sPvP at all while fixing a lot for pve.This time a thousand!
But that would be different balancing for PvE and PvP GASP we can’t have that! – Anet.
No it wouldnt.
This would be for pve and pvp.
The fact that there are no ranked NPCs in pvp is uhhh, completely unrelated.
Allow individual applications of conditions per player on mobs.
Have you ever seen an MMO support thousands of conditions on a single target?
A 25 stack of bleeds is 25 different debuffs compacted into a single indicator. This is why the stack count can change as all those short bleeds fall off. Other MMOs will do the same thing to simply make it easier to see, however, when it comes to actual debuffs that stack, they are actually merged into a single debuff with a stack count. With that system, single stacks can’t fall off and instead, a single new application will keep the entire stack refreshed.
ArenaNet has probably gone through various potential fixes, but supporting an unlimited amount of debuffs simply isn’t possible because it’s too intensive. Other potential fixes would basically require rebalancing every skill and/or changing how conditions work entirely. If they wanted to be simple however, they could just make conditions that fall off deal a percentage of their damage immediately, but that would make certain things, like a zerg + fire fields, very powerful.
Any change that makes conditions better in a zerg will likely make conditions worse on an individual level.
This isn’t everything. The condition system in GW2 is really badly designed. The conditions update per tick, meaning if you gain or lose condition damage during it the ticks will increase or lower. This means that calculations need to be done per tick, which is cpu intensive. That also has the effect of needing your client to talk to the server every tick, bandwidth intensive. It should have been a fire and forget system where the ticks are determined when it is applied and the only other time the server and client need to talk is if a condition removal is used. Then we have the whole stack of ticks going and it’s a huge problem for the servers and bandwidth. The entire system is poorly designed.
The only other MMO that I know of for a fact that had a debuff limit problem was WoW. They band-aided it within 6 months of launch and had it “fixed” within 2 years. Then they eventually made it unlimited debuffs. They recognized the problem, gave a quick fix, then made a better fix, and then finally fixed it for good. What has ArenaNet done in 2.5 years? Nothing. They do not get a pass at being utter failures to address that one of the two major damage types is absolutely useless in large scale PvE. They should be ashamed and embarrassed.
The entire condition system needs overhauled because it is horrible. Not every class should have all conditions, conditions should have equal damage potential, and no one should be able to hit a quarter of the condition cap let alone hit the condition cap solo. Condition cleanses shouldn’t be a a cure all, let them cure a number of stacks but not the full stack unless it’s a specific condition cure. Let Healing power increase the effectiveness of condition cleanse. Finally make the conditions fire and forget, no complicated calculations and bandwidth usage per tick.
The entire condition system needs overhauled because it is horrible. Not every class should have all conditions, conditions should have equal damage potential, and no one should be able to hit a quarter of the condition cap let alone hit the condition cap solo. Condition cleanses shouldn’t be a a cure all, let them cure a number of stacks but not the full stack unless it’s a specific condition cure. Let Healing power increase the effectiveness of condition cleanse. Finally make the conditions fire and forget, no complicated calculations and bandwidth usage per tick.
While your post sounds awesome and is indeed the best post on this topic that I have seen so far, I get the feeling Anet doesnt actually have the ressources for the major overhaul of GW2s combat system that it would take to make conditions interesting gameplay.
I am mostly disappointed that they couldnt be bothered to come up with some sort of quick and dirty fix that at least makes conditions less bad, and flat out let them rot until they find the holy grail that makes them super duper great.
Because chances are this holy grail isnt going to happen, ever.
I liked the idea of burst damage for condi’s over cap.
Every other MMO that supports DoT DPS classes. Like literally EVERY other MMO.
But they work differently under the hood.
To be honest the easier change would be to increase the bleed caps based on enemy rank.
Give Veterans, Champions, etc different bleeds caps.
This would not change sPvP at all while fixing a lot for pve.But then again Anet did nothing for 3 years so its rather obvious that dont give a kitten about conditions for pve.
I agree with this one. I mostly played pvp hoping that pve will be fixed soon, but… He-he. That’s what happens when people want to make money but don’t want to work.
Almost nothing in this game will ever be fixed.
Anet fix things only if it might increase gemstore sales.
It’s sad cuz I been doing dungeon collections. Lotsa Arah armor/weapons from track I’d toss on alts but now I’m doign TA and all the skins get salvaged cuz I don’t want to build any of my alts for condi because of how gross it is in pve.
Allow individual applications of conditions per player on mobs.
Have you ever seen an MMO support thousands of conditions on a single target?
A 25 stack of bleeds is 25 different debuffs compacted into a single indicator. This is why the stack count can change as all those short bleeds fall off. Other MMOs will do the same thing to simply make it easier to see, however, when it comes to actual debuffs that stack, they are actually merged into a single debuff with a stack count. With that system, single stacks can’t fall off and instead, a single new application will keep the entire stack refreshed.
ArenaNet has probably gone through various potential fixes, but supporting an unlimited amount of debuffs simply isn’t possible because it’s too intensive. Other potential fixes would basically require rebalancing every skill and/or changing how conditions work entirely. If they wanted to be simple however, they could just make conditions that fall off deal a percentage of their damage immediately, but that would make certain things, like a zerg + fire fields, very powerful.
Any change that makes conditions better in a zerg will likely make conditions worse on an individual level.
Yeah i have… like every MMO I’ve played. And no, it doesn’T count as “a thousand stacks”. The 25 shows the intensity of the condition.
(0.05 * Condition Damage) + (0.5 * Level) + 2.5 per stack per second
(0.05 * Condition Damage) + 42.5 per stack per second at level 80
Thats the forumla for bleeding. This method needs a few timers when the stacks will expire, and one calculating the damage every second. And with a few timers i do not mean “one for every stack”, i mean “one for every x stacks with the same duration”. If you didn’T know yet, most skills apply x stacks in one go, which needs one timer. Other MMO’s usually have a ton of different dot-effects ticking alongside each other. The only stack-using conditions that needs this change are bleed and torment (and maybe confusion). Burn stacks in duration. Other MMO’s have similar working DoTs that consist of (at the same time) : burn, poison, toxin, venom, Dot’s that work like confusion or torment, DoT’s that explode when enemies try to heal, hence have a different name, and so on and so forth. Basically, what we would do with stacks, those MMO’s do by their shier amount of differently named DoT’s spread over all classes that are applicable at the same time, and even then 2 burns by different persons tick individually.
Also, riddle me this: Why would having your proclaimed “1 k stacks” on different mobs in the swamp need more calculating than all of them on one boss? Simple answer: they don’t, if the system is implemented correctly.
Oh, another fun fact: adding, subtracting, and multiplying are extremely cost efficient in terms of "power"usage of computers. You could try programming something that would take a thousand variables and counts down their time, and it wouldn’t take a lot of “effort” for the mnachine. Also if it was such a huge problem, the affected DoT’s could be “normalized”, like one stack of bleed goes away every 1 second instead of the current “10 stacks applied at the same time vanish at the same time”. Then you could cut it down to 1 timer per stack , change the damage numbers on bleed a little so the endresult produces the same damage as the stacks did before, and call it a day.
(edited by Shiki.7148)
One of the main problems of DoTs in this game is that every class is applying same DoTs which lead to absurd situations when condi necro compete for stacks of bleeding with zerker warrior. Each class or bundle of classes (for example warrior + engineer + thief, necro+mesmer, guardian + ele) should have at least 1 unique DoT stackable to 25 (unlocked by spending points into condi trait lines) + bleeding and they can balance bleeding and other DoTs around this.
This alone would be a game changer because those speced into conditions would have their own stacks + shared bleeding stacks.
Yes all condi necros would compete for same stacks of their unique DoT/DoTs but it would be still better than what we have now.
One of the main problems of DoTs in this game is that every class is applying same DoTs which lead to absurd situations when condi necro compete for stacks of bleeding with zerker warrior. Each class or bundle of classes (for example warrior + engineer + thief, necro+mesmer, guardian + ele) should have at least 1 unique DoT stackable to 25 (unlocked by spending points into condi trait lines) + bleeding and they can balance bleeding and other DoTs around this.
This alone would be a game changer because those speced into conditions would have their own stacks + shared bleeding stacks.
Yes all condi necros would compete for same stacks of their unique DoT/DoTs but it would be still better than what we have now.
Which is why so many people want for them to just let it be one stack unique to the person that applies it. Same effect, nobody competes/overwrites anything, et voila. And a few posts before i made a suggestion that gets rid of the balance problems that could cause in PvP and WvW, while keeping PvE, PvP and WvW the same balance wise. But, duh, if Anet cared they’d have done something to fix this ages ago. Nevermind all the bugfixes, buffs, QoL changes etc. that are overdue 2.5 years now. There are bugs that have stuck since release, and some of them would be easily fixable, too, but no, they go and make a fancy camera instead of adressing pressing issues.
They are busy with new outfits ;-)
1. Other MMO’s usually have a ton of different dot-effects ticking alongside each other.
2. Oh, another fun fact: adding, subtracting, and multiplying are extremely cost efficient in terms of "power"usage of computers.
1. There’s one key difference though.
In most other MMO’s, the game very rarely has to work out differences in the space of a second. DoT’s tend to have a set value or range that, once their fired off, the server only has to return that it’s been applied to the enemy. GW had the pip system where bleeds were one pip of health degen, while burning was something like 5. WoWs DoT’s tended to have DoTs critting as the only variable.
In GW2, while in a fight, conditions are worked off of player’s current condition damage. During a fight, that condition damage can change in the space of a few seconds (Might stacks usually being the case). For example, Necro Scepter autoattack: The first bleed could be based off 100 CD, the next 160 CD and the poison (which has a different formula) 190 CD. That’s 3 different damage calculations that have to be sent to the server, calculated, and then the value returned to the player.
That’s essentially three different condition damage values that the game has to send to the servers to calculate, and return the value to the player.
Now, for examples sake, let’s say that there’s 20 necromancers with scepters at a boss. In the space of a second, that’s 20 bleeds applied to the boss. Unless every necro is operating under the same condition – that is, they have the exact same condition damage at the point that they fire off their bleeds – then the game will have to send 20 different damage values, one for each individual bleed, to the server.
Which brings me onto point 2:
2. Bandwidth has always been quoted by Anet as to why conditions are capped, as opposed to processing power.
Potential Solutions
1. Conditions are calculated client-side instead of server-side.
The advantage of this being less bandwidth needs to be used (less data is being sent – the total CD is sent as opposed to the condition and the Condition damage at time of application – and received), while the disadvantage being that it’s easier to tamper with the conditions if everything is done client-side.
2. Weapons have 2 skill sets.
If power from gear is over a certain amount (i.e. the gear’s primary stat is Power), then the weapon selects skill-set 1 which is full of skills that don’t apply damaging conditions, but have slightly higher co-efficient to make up for the lack of CD. If the CD from gear is over a certain threshold (i.e. the gear’s primary stat is Condition Damage), then the weapon gets the second skill set, which causes the skills to apply the condition while having the existing damage co-efficient.
This would help make conditions better in smaller group content, but it doesn’t really help with OW PvE and pretty much kills hybrid damage / condition builds.
3. Might no longer adds Condition Damage; formulas adjusted to compensate.
This removes the element of constant calculations the game has to do on an individual basis, but doesn’t really solve the issue that the game has to calculate for every condition applied i.e someone with 100 CD and someone with 200 CD.
4. Full stacks are consumed and turn into another condition
When a damaging condition gains full stacks, that stack is replaced with a condition that is fire and forget.
For example, 25 stacks of Bleeding get consumed and turn into Hemorrhaging, which is a short duration, high intensity bleed with a set damage amount that is refreshed with every 25 stacks.
This would allow Condition users to contribute to the fight without being hindered since the cap would essentially be removed, but it doesn’t really take into consideration each individual’s CD, meaning power users could bring a lot of low-damaging bleeds to trigger it.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
(edited by TheDaiBish.9735)
Please stop making thread like this there is no chance they will made some radical change before HoT so this is pointless
Huh? Have you heard of stability/defiance change??
I was just about to type this out.
To be honest the easier change would be to increase the bleed caps based on enemy rank.
Give Veterans, Champions, etc different bleeds caps.
This would not change sPvP at all while fixing a lot for pve.But then again Anet did nothing for 3 years so its rather obvious that dont give a kitten about conditions for pve.
People still think the bleed cap is the problem with conditions?
No it’s not.
The problem with condition damage is that, by the time you reach the bleed cap, the boss is almost already dead. By the time your conditions run their full course, the boss is most definitely dead. If that is not the case, your group either lacks dps or you are doing high level fractals where it’s not always so easy to burst bosses down.
-snip-
People aren’t saying that bleed caps are the problem. But in order to fix the problem, the base mechanics need to change. Bleed cap was an example of one of those base mechanics.
-snip-
People aren’t saying that bleed caps are the problem. But in order to fix the problem, the base mechanics need to change. Bleed cap was an example of one of those base mechanics.
ah, ok, but it would change nothing! So let’s say you can reach 100 stacks of bleed. What give? the boss will be dead before you are even at 30.
To be honest the easier change would be to increase the bleed caps based on enemy rank.
Give Veterans, Champions, etc different bleeds caps.
This would not change sPvP at all while fixing a lot for pve.But then again Anet did nothing for 3 years so its rather obvious that dont give a kitten about conditions for pve.
People still think the bleed cap is the problem with conditions?
No it’s not.
The problem with condition damage is that, by the time you reach the bleed cap, the boss is almost already dead. By the time your conditions run their full course, the boss is most definitely dead. If that is not the case, your group either lacks dps or you are doing high level fractals where it’s not always so easy to burst bosses down.
Two words: World Bosses. And no, bosses like the final boss in CoF, path 3 don’t die nearly as quickly. Well, if they fixed the bug that makes it able to skip him, that is. Also, the conditions wouldn’t need to tick through. The damage of high stacks of condis is fine, the problem is that as soon as they hit 25 stacks, everything goes to hell. Lowdmg, low duration condis overwrite the high damage, long duration ones, 2 condi users steal each others DPS etc.
for skill balancing, it is almost 100% pvp related. And they are horrible at that.
Because they refuse to seperate pvp and pve balancing, like they did in gw1. As long as pvp and pve balance isn’t seperated, we will never even get close to balance.
But why will they not separate PVP vs PVE balancing? You would think it would make their life easier. Lack of solid condition damage in PVE really effect my enjoyment and variety of builds.
I would so like to see condition build work in PVE.
This has already been discussed and established in multiple places:
The problem is that condition stacks use inefficient netcode and so they are hard limited at 25 to prevent performance issues / lag
It has nothing to do with PvP balancing.
what i don’t understand about this discussion is can’t you just communicate your builds to your party so you don’t overlap on conditions as much ie if there is a person who can bleed another switch to vul or something like that i realize it isn’t always that easy but that would alleviate a large bit of the problem
4. Full stacks are consumed and turn into another condition
When a damaging condition gains full stacks, that stack is replaced with a condition that is fire and forget.
For example, 25 stacks of Bleeding get consumed and turn into Hemorrhaging, which is a short duration, high intensity bleed with a set damage amount that is refreshed with every 25 stacks.
This would allow Condition users to contribute to the fight without being hindered since the cap would essentially be removed, but it doesn’t really take into consideration each individual’s CD, meaning power users could bring a lot of low-damaging bleeds to trigger it.
Idea #4 is quite nice. But it still needs similar processing power, because the new condition would need to factor in every single bleed’s duration, damage etc. for its own duration and damage. instead of processing the stacks of each player at the same time by multi-threading or similar methods, it would need to do it in one instance every x seconds, x being pretty low when considering world bosses. And as for the bandwidth-problem… same as i said before. The game can process the stacks of every player on a map if they all played condition already and it doesn’t cause lags for anyone with a decent connection. So, why would it suddenly increase so much the server would be overwhelmed or the bandwidth would need to process so much more if those stacks were on ONE target instead of spread over a ton of mobs for which HP, conditions, buffs, movement etc. need to be calculated seperately while all players bombing down one ONE boss would only need the processing of ONE HP bar and mob-mechanics?
4. Full stacks are consumed and turn into another condition
When a damaging condition gains full stacks, that stack is replaced with a condition that is fire and forget.
For example, 25 stacks of Bleeding get consumed and turn into Hemorrhaging, which is a short duration, high intensity bleed with a set damage amount that is refreshed with every 25 stacks.
This would allow Condition users to contribute to the fight without being hindered since the cap would essentially be removed, but it doesn’t really take into consideration each individual’s CD, meaning power users could bring a lot of low-damaging bleeds to trigger it.
Idea #4 is quite nice. But it still needs similar processing power, because the new condition would need to factor in every single bleed’s duration, damage etc. for its own duration and damage. instead of processing the stacks of each player at the same time by multi-threading or similar methods, it would need to do it in one instance every x seconds, x being pretty low when considering world bosses.
Well, the idea was that this new condition wouldn’t take into consideration the amount of time left on the bleeding stacks, damage or player stats.
The condition would be set in terms of duration and damage. So, for example, Hemorrhaging would do 6k damage over 2 seconds, and would only refresh / reapply when the Bleed stack hits 25 again.
And as for the bandwidth-problem… same as i said before. The game can process the stacks of every player on a map if they all played condition already and it doesn’t cause lags for anyone with a decent connection. So, why would it suddenly increase so much the server would be overwhelmed or the bandwidth would need to process so much more if those stacks were on ONE target instead of spread over a ton of mobs for which HP, conditions, buffs, movement etc. need to be calculated seperately while all players bombing down one ONE boss would only need the processing of ONE HP bar and mob-mechanics?
Because the amount of calculations it has to do is still limited at 25 per stack, since new conditions overwrite old conditions.
Removing the cap or giving each player their own stack to maintain would mean that the server would have to recieve, process and return a lot, lot more.
For example, a world boss has 100 players. Let’s say that 50 of them players apply bleed frequently.
Under the old system the game would only have to calculate 25 bleeds.
Removing the cap would mean that the game would have to process a lot more bleeds.
Giving each player a stack means that the game would have to process a maximum 1250 Bleeds (50 × 25 stacks) at any one time, all with potentially varying values, durations etc just for that boss encounter alone.
And that’s just bleeds. Add Torment, Confusion, Burning and Poison into it as well, and that’s a lot more bandwidth being used just to process conditions for a single boss encounter.
Remember, bandwith isn’t limited to just the player’s side; Anet have a limited amount of bandwidth to work with as well. Given how they coded the condition system, chances are that they know the limits of what they can get away with.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
Nope, they won’t. They don’t want those changes in PvP, for ArenaNet PvP is more important than PvE (because they still have that “LOL E-Sport!” dream, regardless of how dead the PvP community is), and so ArenaNet won’t make different versions of fundamental game mechanics.
What? They already made confusion different in PvE and PvP. I don’t see why the other conditions couldn’t work the same way.
Because the amount of calculations it has to do is still limited at 25 per stack, since new conditions overwrite old conditions.
This is a 10+ year old solved issue (see every other MMO, notably you know what). The current design is on purpose, it has nothing to do with technical limitations.
This is a 10+ year old solved issue (see every other MMO, notably you know what).
There’s a key difference though:
- In the game-that-shall-not-be-named and most other MMO’s, DoT’s tend to have very little variation in the damage they do; the only damage variable tends to be if it crits or not.
- In GW2, if 25 bleeds got applied in 1 second, every single one of them bleeds could have a different value, and so would technically count as 25 different conditions.
Not to mention it’s somewhat inane to say ‘well, this MMO can do it so this one should be able to as well’ since, chances are, they’re both different under the hood.
The current design is on purpose, it has nothing to do with technical limitations.
The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Technical limitation can dictate design.
Unless you got other information, the only information that we have to go by is that it’s done because of bandwidth and performance.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
-snip-
… Do I REALLY need to make a drawing of how it works? If you do not get it with this example I’ll have to.
So, let’s say we have a map. Now, on that map, there can be, let’s say, 500 players. Now these 500 players fight 500+ mobs, and they all use conditions. Guess what is happening? Right, the server calculates 500+ 15-20 bleeding-stacks, 1000+ healthbars, 500+ times poison, 500+ times torment stacks etc etc. Every player receives the info about his own stacks, the stacks on other mobs nearby fighting other players, all of the mobs healthbars, movements etc. Next, all of those 500 play+ gather up for the world boss event. And what happens now? The server has to calculate ONE Hp-bar, exactly 500 15-20 stacks of bleed, exactly 500 times the poison damage (but only factor healing reduction ONCE), torment etc. Which is EXACTLY THE SAME as what it calcuates if the 500 players were roaming around. Now for the players: they receive the info of their OWN stacks. They do not, however, need to see everyone elses stacks, it is enough to get the update on how the bosses HP is fairing.
Conclusion: the server CALCULATES THE SAME GODkitten AMOUNT OF INFO. Actually less, because only one HP bar is involved (I’ll leave eventual adds out of here). The players are sent THE SAME AMOUNT OF INFORMATION, or even less, because they do not need to receive the info for the other players’ stacks like they would if they were fighting two seperate mobs with a system that makes you apply stacks to the same DoT, meaning you need to receive that information.
Get it now? There is really no difference in processing power and bandwidth needed. At least not if you implement it correctly, meaning only sending the info of the results (the decrease of the bosses HP bar) instead of sending info about the damage every stack does, and even THEN, same thing applies for power-moves.
The only thing that would need factoring is how it is changed for attacks on players, because in that event, they’d obviously need the stack-info on how many bleeds are ticking on them, but even that could be simplyfied by having one number showing the highest amount of stacks on you, and another simply showing how many stacks from different persons you have for that DoT.
As for your idea… you see, if that new DoT wouldn’t factor the effectiveness and duration of the stacks used to build the 25 stacks, it would actually be a huge NERF for condition classes. Because you could simply use power-users that take zerker or assassin gear, meaning 0 condi duration or damage and would get the SAME RESULT, turning those two stats even more ineffective than they are currently.
(edited by Shiki.7148)
Now, on that map, there can be, let’s say, 500 players. Now these 500 players fight 500+ mobs, and they all use conditions. Guess what is happening? Right, the server calculates 500+ 15-20 bleeding-stacks, 1000+ healthbars, 500+ times poison, 500+ times torment stacks etc etc. Every player receives the info about his own stacks, the stacks on other mobs nearby fighting other players, all of the mobs healthbars, movements etc.
Next, all of those 500 play+ gather up for the world boss event. And what happens now? The server has to calculate ONE Hp-bar, exactly 500 15-20 stacks of bleed, exactly 500 times the poison damage (but only factor healing reduction ONCE), torment etc. Which is EXACTLY THE SAME as what it calcuates if the 500 players were roaming around. Now for the players: they receive the info of their OWN stacks. They do not, however, need to see everyone elses stacks, it is enough to get the update on how the bosses HP is fairing.
Conclusion: the server CALCULATES THE SAME GODkitten AMOUNT OF INFO. Actually less, because only one HP bar is involved (I’ll leave eventual adds out of here). The players are sent THE SAME AMOUNT OF INFORMATION, or even less, because they do not need to receive the info for the other players’ stacks like they would if they were fighting two seperate mobs with a system that makes you apply stacks to the same DoT, meaning you need to receive that information.
Get it now? There is really no difference in processing power and bandwidth needed. At least not if you implement it correctly, meaning only sending the info of the results (the decrease of the bosses HP bar) instead of sending info about the damage every stack does, and even THEN, same thing applies for power-moves.
1. I know players only need info on their own stacks. However, bandwidth isn’t an issue only the players have the deal with. Remember Anet needs to balance their bandwidth for the entire game, while we only need bandwith for what we’re currently doing.
2. We don’t know how much bandwith processing
As for your idea… you see, if that new DoT wouldn’t factor the effectiveness and duration of the stacks used to build the 25 stacks, it would actually be a huge NERF for condition classes. Because you could simply use power-users that take zerker or assassin gear, meaning 0 condi duration or damage and would get the SAME RESULT, turning those two stats even more ineffective than they are currently.
Which is something I addressed – the exact same concern as you just said, funnily enough – in the original suggestion if you look.
Personally I don’t think conditions in the open world will be fixed with a single change, but rather a number of changes.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
Out of the different things you do in game (sPvP, WvW, open-world, World boss, dungeons, exploration) the condi cap is mostly reached (and a problem) in two cases World bosses and Dungeons… but not always.
In term of damaging conditions, confusion and torment are less a problem than the others.
In the case of World boss for example, the vinewrath is not so awful for condi cap since during lane phase not everyone focus the same mob. Arguably during boss phase when enough people died against thrasher you’re free to apply your conditions. Orr bosses are really often done by 10-15 people without too much trouble for conditions.
Other World bosses are anyway just a zerg fest since the introduction of timers. You can do them as full healer or tank (aka with minimal damage) and the boss will die in any case.
In dungeons it mainly affects un-organized PUGs who don’t want to go as fast as possible. If you run a “slow” dungeon with guildies you set up your builds before starting in order to optimize the conditions applications.
So the problem is really not as bad as people like to complain about. I don’t say the statu quo is the best deal but I don’t think this really hurts the game so much.
To get condi build a bit more reliable I would change all minor traits that apply condi on crit from minor to major so that players have to actively slot them… it would greatly reduce the bleed cap (and maybe burning too) at least in dungeons.
World bosses are a desperate cause since they are so easy and timed….
Don’t know what your problem is, mine absolutely shreds.