Guild Wars 2

Jasher.6580:

thefantasticg.3984:

I’ve read the same in a couple of places by Anet devs… which is why I have no hope for Condi pve builds and never plan on running one myself.

Success is determined not by whether or not you face obstacles, but by your reaction to them. And if you look at these obstacles as a containing fence, they become your excuse for failure. If you look at them as a hurdle, each one strengthens you for the next.

That’s great and all but success in PVE is killing it before it kills you… And that’s done with high DPS…. which conditions don’t do…. they fail. It’s been said by Anet devs that they cannot raise the condi caps because the hardware just can’t do it.

thefantasticg.3984:

Jasher.6580:

thefantasticg.3984:

I’ve read the same in a couple of places by Anet devs… which is why I have no hope for Condi pve builds and never plan on running one myself.

Success is determined not by whether or not you face obstacles, but by your reaction to them. And if you look at these obstacles as a containing fence, they become your excuse for failure. If you look at them as a hurdle, each one strengthens you for the next.

That’s great and all but success in PVE is killing it before it kills you… And that’s done with high DPS…. which conditions don’t do…. they fail. It’s been said by Anet devs that they cannot raise the condi caps because the hardware just can’t do it.

But can if the mobs are “tough” enough… Do you worry about the cap in pvp…follow how that mode goes to improve pve.

Brother Grimm.5176:

sorudo.9054:

…..full-DPS builds can be nerfed accordingly.

You say the damage is not to be focused on yet you want to nerf DPS builds?

I seriously can’t see how this would make the game better for anyone.

CD is less effective than direct damage and while that may upset some players, frankly, it hardly matters in the larger scheme of things. I guess I can see that 3 to 5 CD players have difficulty in Dungeons, but that is quite a nitch market to be pandering to.

i see you’re not even reading and just skim through this, i said nerf the DPS damage (so the normal DPS that makes all other dmg types useless) and make the same damage more powerful when conditions are applied.
that way you HAVE to have a cond build in your team to be effective, no cond means no high-end DPS.

thefantasticg.3984:

That’s great and all but success in PVE is killing it before it kills you… And that’s done with high DPS…. which conditions don’t do…. they fail. It’s been said by Anet devs that they cannot raise the condi caps because the hardware just can’t do it.

Not all bosses can be killed in such manner.
For example: first and last boss in hammer fractal.

vpchelko.4261:

thefantasticg.3984:

That’s great and all but success in PVE is killing it before it kills you… And that’s done with high DPS…. which conditions don’t do…. they fail. It’s been said by Anet devs that they cannot raise the condi caps because the hardware just can’t do it.

Not all bosses can be killed in such manner.
For example: first and last boss in hammer fractal.

Indeed, not all, but most are killed in such a manner. So, I’ll spec for the most… And even with the Archdiviner you still want to get through the his healthbar and the seals (thus chanters) fast as possible because you don’t want those crazy fanatics to spawn if you take too long… So, again, DPS race.

Sagat.3285:

thefantasticg.3984:

Jasher.6580:

thefantasticg.3984:

I’ve read the same in a couple of places by Anet devs… which is why I have no hope for Condi pve builds and never plan on running one myself.

Success is determined not by whether or not you face obstacles, but by your reaction to them. And if you look at these obstacles as a containing fence, they become your excuse for failure. If you look at them as a hurdle, each one strengthens you for the next.

That’s great and all but success in PVE is killing it before it kills you… And that’s done with high DPS…. which conditions don’t do…. they fail. It’s been said by Anet devs that they cannot raise the condi caps because the hardware just can’t do it.

But can if the mobs are “tough” enough… Do you worry about the cap in pvp…follow how that mode goes to improve pve.

So giving the mobs more toughness or health makes content harder…? Got it. Still doesn’t fix the condi cap…. which they can’t because it’s hardware limitations.

And no, I don’t worry about the cap in PVP because I don’t PVP. Why? Capture point is boring as H__l.

And again no, PVE is worse off because balance is done through PVP because they don’t split skills.

thefantasticg.3984:

It’s been said by Anet devs that they cannot raise the condi caps because the hardware just can’t do it.

Source?

You can google the forums if you want. I know I read it awhile back. The search engine on this forum is the absolute worst of any forum I have ever been apart of so feel free to do so. Or maybe someone else favorited that page with the post from the Devs on it? I know I didn’t because that was the same I day I wrote off condi builds outside of PVP.

An easy way to reduce the difficulty for condition users – make it so that you have to actively trait for condition application.

No more “My auto attack causes bleed/poison/weakness” unless you’ve actively traited.

At the very least, this would do away with berserker users overwriting actual powered conditions with their own minimum damage ones.

Came back from a long hiatus and was disappointing to see nothing has been done to address condition builds usefulness in PvE. Understand it must be a tough one to tackle but it’s been a long time coming. I don’t have much hope they are ever going to address it at this point for whatever reason.

sorudo.9054:

……
that way you HAVE to have a cond build in your team to be effective, no cond means no high-end DPS.

That just forces a different type of “trinity” on the group. I get you want your CD build to be desired, but that solution is no better than the old GW1 days when a Monk or Rit was required to do certain missions….as big a backward step as they could make.

Smart thing would be to ask for support builds to be viable, because this will open up gameplay options for players, to choose a role and a different style of playing the game, this will bring a lot to GW2, bring some nice variety. Condi dps? It’s still just a dps and it won’t be even that much different mechanically from power builds in how you play it in PvE. It will only bring more problems in balancing for PvP.

Brother Grimm.5176:

sorudo.9054:

……
that way you HAVE to have a cond build in your team to be effective, no cond means no high-end DPS.

That just forces a different type of “trinity” on the group. I get you want your CD build to be desired, but that solution is no better than the old GW1 days when a Monk or Rit was required to do certain missions….as big a backward step as they could make.

it’s better then spitting on necro’s while the current trinity steamroll through dungeons, i want conditions to be needed and that’s exactly what this does.

tho, earlier it was said that it’s better to make conditions something to connect on traits for certain attack types, that also needs to happen to make this work.

Uh… There’s no trinity right now steamrolling through dungeons… It’s DPS and active defenses combined.

sorudo.9054:

Brother Grimm.5176:

sorudo.9054:

……
that way you HAVE to have a cond build in your team to be effective, no cond means no high-end DPS.

That just forces a different type of “trinity” on the group. I get you want your CD build to be desired, but that solution is no better than the old GW1 days when a Monk or Rit was required to do certain missions….as big a backward step as they could make.

it’s better then spitting on necro’s while the current trinity steamroll through dungeons, i want conditions to be needed and that’s exactly what this does.

tho, earlier it was said that it’s better to make conditions something to connect on traits for certain attack types, that also needs to happen to make this work.

So you are advocating these changes just so your Necro is a desired class in Dungeons? That explains a lot.

How about something that would make the game better for ALL classes and players?

Brother Grimm.5176:

sorudo.9054:

Brother Grimm.5176:

sorudo.9054:

……
that way you HAVE to have a cond build in your team to be effective, no cond means no high-end DPS.

That just forces a different type of “trinity” on the group. I get you want your CD build to be desired, but that solution is no better than the old GW1 days when a Monk or Rit was required to do certain missions….as big a backward step as they could make.

it’s better then spitting on necro’s while the current trinity steamroll through dungeons, i want conditions to be needed and that’s exactly what this does.

tho, earlier it was said that it’s better to make conditions something to connect on traits for certain attack types, that also needs to happen to make this work.

So you are advocating these changes just so your Necro is a desired class in Dungeons? That explains a lot.

How about something that would make the game better for ALL classes and players?

ah, so like what we have now where all professions are better…except for necro’s…..-_-

thefantasticg.3984:

Andred.1087:

This has already been discussed and established in multiple places:

The problem is that condition stacks use inefficient netcode and so they are hard limited at 25 to prevent performance issues / lag

It has nothing to do with PvP balancing.

I’ve read the same in a couple of places by Anet devs… which is why I have no hope for Condi pve builds and never plan on running one myself.

He is wrong, btw. Its 25 stacks PER PLAYER, and even that isn’t entirely true. Because if you got 300 people on the same map fighting different monsters the server would have to be able to handle all of them stacks. Which it is able to do. What they CANNOT do is make it more than 25 stacks PER PLAYER (again thats not entirely true as 1 player may fight multiple mobs. Not that they would reach 25 stacks on all of them, but still).

Well, what they, Anet, said is that the hardware literally can’t handle 25 stacks per player per creature. If the search engine on the forum wasn’t so horrid I’d use it to go find the post about it from the Anet dev. Regardless, if their hardware could handle 25 stacks per player per creature, wouldn’t they be using that already to get rid of all the condi QQ? Seems illogical that they would have the capabilities to do it but just simply don’t. I mean anything’s possible but… wait… are you saying we need to break out the tinfoil hat because there is some Anet conspiracy to keep condis as 2nd class DPS to direct damage???

thefantasticg.3984:

vpchelko.4261:

thefantasticg.3984:

That’s great and all but success in PVE is killing it before it kills you… And that’s done with high DPS…. which conditions don’t do…. they fail. It’s been said by Anet devs that they cannot raise the condi caps because the hardware just can’t do it.

Not all bosses can be killed in such manner.
For example: first and last boss in hammer fractal.

Indeed, not all, but most are killed in such a manner. So, I’ll spec for the most… And even with the Archdiviner you still want to get through the his healthbar and the seals (thus chanters) fast as possible because you don’t want those crazy fanatics to spawn if you take too long… So, again, DPS race.

Sagat.3285:

thefantasticg.3984:

Jasher.6580:

thefantasticg.3984:

I’ve read the same in a couple of places by Anet devs… which is why I have no hope for Condi pve builds and never plan on running one myself.

Success is determined not by whether or not you face obstacles, but by your reaction to them. And if you look at these obstacles as a containing fence, they become your excuse for failure. If you look at them as a hurdle, each one strengthens you for the next.

That’s great and all but success in PVE is killing it before it kills you… And that’s done with high DPS…. which conditions don’t do…. they fail. It’s been said by Anet devs that they cannot raise the condi caps because the hardware just can’t do it.

But can if the mobs are “tough” enough… Do you worry about the cap in pvp…follow how that mode goes to improve pve.

So giving the mobs more toughness or health makes content harder…? Got it. Still doesn’t fix the condi cap…. which they can’t because it’s hardware limitations.

And no, I don’t worry about the cap in PVP because I don’t PVP. Why? Capture point is boring as H__l.

And again no, PVE is worse off because balance is done through PVP because they don’t split skills.

Follow pvp,are players hp sponge? Do you worry about cap on them?.. I’s not simply making them more durable but dynamic like vs a player or force to not ignore.

Here, let me bold it for you: “And NO, I don’t worry about the cap in PVP because I don’t PVP. Why? Capture point is boring as H__l.” Which, if I recall, there’s only ONE friggin deathmatch map where I would, in that case, worry about hitting cap if there was more than one necro in party (or soon to be Revenant). Regardless, we’re talking PVE, not PVP. If I wanted to play against other players I’d go PVP. So, back to PVE and condis being useful…

I have a feeling most of the issues with condition outside of PvP/WvW will be relegate as system limitations and just file away as an unfortunate side effect of building a MMORPG around a 5v5 conquest pvp games’ mechanics.

The solution of having all conditions applied over the cap hit as direct damage would not be affected by the so called condition cap.

Jasher.6580:

The solution of having all conditions applied over the cap hit as direct damage would not be affected by the so called condition cap.

Wasn’t there a really well thought out thread about this some 3 months or so ago? Seems like there was anyway. Yeah, so, I fully like/support this idea. Although I have no idea if the same hardware/tech limits that are limiting the condi stacking would limit this as well? Would be nice to get some real developer input on this.

Jasher.6580:

Allow individual applications of conditions per player on mobs.

Change the way low value conditions work against enemy NPC’s. eg. Confusion and Torment.

Thank you.

Conditions are becoming way more viable, look at SW and upcoming HoT Expansion. Confusion damage got a buff in January as well.

The only way to make condis be as useful is to have pve creatures be able to periodically prevent direct damage

Problem with Conditions is their scaling in group content is bad.

Alone they aren’t that bad, take a bit longer to kill than direct damage and a lot longer against unconditionable targets.
In 5man groups, it can already get capped out and damage is being lost.
With large content, like world bosses, conditions performance varies. If there are a lot of minions that need cleaning (i.e. Tqtl) they can contribute. If it’s one big spankfest (i.e. most of them) they are next to useless.

If there was a way for condition damage to scale into the direct damage component of condition abilities that would help a lot.

For example.

Vital Shot.
Damage: 134 (0.4)? Bleeding: 4 s

The direct damage part is 134 which scales with Power. But if the target is saturated on Bleeds, so you cannot apply more Bleeding, Condition damage is also used in that scaling.
So the direct damage component would scale with both Power and Condition Damage, resulting in Condition damage to essentially becoming a stand-in for Power if the target cannot be afflicted by the condition component.

Such a mechanic I’d suggest limiting to PvE only.

As pure condition builds are still below parr I’d say:

Invest in hybrids if you want conditions in PvE
for pve:
Carrion/rampager/sinister

For WvW
pure conditions ( roaming)
Dire/rabid
hybrids: (multi use, roaming, focusgroup)
Rabid/rampager or Rabid/sinister

Not sure if this idea has been thought of before, but I had an idea to improve condi builds without changing the cap.

So at the moment skills that inflict condi damage usually have low direct damage right? Well what if, for example, the more stacks of bleeding you apply to your target the more direct damage your bleed stacking attacks deal against that target. This would only increase the damage of those skills that stack bleeds, not skills that apply no bleeding. So for example, a DD thief’s death blossom direct damage would increase after bleed stacks are applied, but the other skills would not.

The direct damage from these skills would scale up through stages based on your overall condition damage stat and how many stacks of bleeding are on the target (from any source). However, the damage can also be scaled back down as you apply more and more of your own stacks beyond a certain threshold.

So to break it down:

- Bleed stacking attacks would have a direct damage increase based on your condi stat and the total number of bleed stacks on the enemy.

- The damage bonus would go back down if you have more of your own stacks on the target, so when fighting mobs solo you would not gain more damage than you would from stacking more bleeds. 11+ bleeds would be more damage then 10 bleeds plus a small damage boost. But 25 stacks (with only 10 or less being yours) would give a significant damage boost. Maybe not the equivalant of 25 of your own stacks, but enough to compensate for not being able to apply more bleeds.

- When solo the damage boost would not be very big at 5-10 stacks, so shouldn’t effect builds that much in PvP or solo PvE. However, when grouped up, the more bleeds on the foe, the more direct damage, so your damage output will increase significantly when 5-10 of your own stacks are applied.

I hope I have explained the idea well enough. It would obviously need some balancing and fine tuning of the numbers, and how the damage would scale up and down, but what do you guys think? Its not the perfect pure condi solution, but I think it could help to reduce the impact on condi builds when doing group content, without needing to change the condi cap.

Additional idea – To prevent hybrid builds getting a much bigger benefit, maybe the damage bonus could scale down based on your power and presition stats too. If they are high you get less of a bonus, so that it benefits pure condi builds more.

reapex.8546:

Jasher.6580:

Allow individual applications of conditions per player on mobs.

Change the way low value conditions work against enemy NPC’s. eg. Confusion and Torment.

Thank you.

Conditions are becoming way more viable, look at SW and upcoming HoT Expansion. Confusion damage got a buff in January as well.

They are only slightly more viable in new content. In old content they are still crap.

People have supplied dozens of ways to change conditions and even more variants:

Things which could change conditions would be:

Changing the amount of applications of any given to a lower amount but increasing dmg. (would complicated things even more (IMHO))

Changing the mechanics to add the actual overflow points to condition dmg overflows. (requires a new overflow system)
-As direct dmg (could be done, problem is direct dmg would be subject to armor )
-As an increased version of the condition (bleeding turns into heamoraging s doubled/tripled/qudrupled and so on dmg for each time flipped (seems broken when I type it..)

My suggestion would be:

Changing the mechanics so that only the condition dmg, as is at the time of applying, is added to respective newly created “total-condition stack” for each damaging condition, (being total of the condition dmg added by players times stacks added) (which could be stackable or as high as the maximum precise 32bit variable (total of 16.7M condition dmg maximum)…

My workout:

Goal: Allowing stacks to increase beyond a total of 25.
My Idea just contains a total condition and is scaled of all combined condition dmg*condition applications for duration) leaving 1 stack, but scalability far above the present as only the total amount of conidtion dmg which has been used for applying the conidtion is stored and the total condition dmg can be used to calculate the actual dmg. (which would allow for mechanics as epidemic to function BUT will not allow for added might added after the cast to affect condition dmg already stacked, which would considerably reduce load and allow for much higher stacks (infinite as long as the variable will allow for the number))

Problem: scaling on condition dmg will need to be reworked so conditions will scale with the base dmg. Base dmg needs to be converted to condition dmg so you can actually add a value in condition dmg for each application.

Comparison Present and Proposal:
So if 2 people (1 with 10 condition dmg and 1 with 15 condition dmg) would both add 2 bleeds (1st for 5 secs other for 8 secs ) When changed you do not track the 4 individual bleeds any longer

Example as it is now:
1st p1 bleed (10,10,10,10,10,0,0,0,0,0)
2nd p1 bleed(10,10,10,10,10,0,0,0,0,0)
1st p2 bleed(15,15,15,15,15,15,15,15,0,0)
2nd p2 bleed(15,15,15,15,15,15,15,15,0,0)
(Leaving the engine with easier traceable dmg patterns but an enourmous overhead, and allowing you to have benefit ofd a later dropped banner or might)

But you would combine all condition dmg in 1 TOTAL variable "condition_dmg_total for the known duration and thus with the condition dmg at the time of casting combined

Example as it could be:
total bleed (50,50,50,50,50,30,30,30,0,0)

(as individual tracking is removed load would be reduced and stacks could be build up much higher. The only consequence is banners and might should be applied before casting or their effects will not be added to the stacks you have already cast before they go up. on the other hand condition will not be overwritten, but the actual dmg will be less easiliy traceable (for loot distribution and so on).

Solution: (I think a 32 bit value could get a precise value which would always be acurate even in a 100 man zerk (16.7M condi cap max) (well if you would have 200 ppl all running S/S warriors all being able to cap out at 32-33 stacks of bleeds you could have use for 200*33 stacks*~2000 conidtion dmg (=13,2M condition dmg total) which should fit IMHO, for the few uber condi dmg characters… well I think it has still an overflow of 3.5M and there will be others not running s/s warrior or condition in the first place as well.)

I do not know it this would be implementable, but it would allow for a lot more use of conidtion dmg. and it would still allow condition scrubbing as before., use of epidemic ( From world boss send 10M condition dmg bleed to basic spawn? Ouch… ), or other condition based mechanics. (see also future revenant)

It would also alllow for a huge application of condition dmg at world bosses (it could actually compete with DPS IMO) and It would reduce the amount of condition dmg tracing to 1 table per spawn (7*60 (header + damaging conditions(bleed/torment, confusion/poison/fire/terror))*(seconds)), other condtiions including vulnerability could stay at original system…. (though I do not mind if you rework them so they are added with no end. (forcing us to take a condi clear))

It has 1 remark, any special conditions (poison master and improved burning) could be applied as well if they would be introduced for the stackable conditions, just by multiplyng the condition dmg with a relevant amount of condition dmg

Edit note: This has been modded a few times, I hope it is still comprehensible and readable after 7 edits…)

^Additions on m previous post

Condition dmg formulae need only be reworked a small bit

Bleeding for example does (0.05XCondiDmg)+ Lvl X 0.5+ 2.5 dmg /stack

This should be changed:
application of condition dmg on hit to the CondiDmg_totalbleed should be equal to:
lvl X 10 condidmg + 50+condidmg
(in case of a lvl80: 850 + condition dmg)

Calculation for dmg would be simplified:
0.05* condidmg_totalbleed /tick
(in case of an empty condition 850/20=42.5 for said lvl 80)

I do not know how much more or less overhead this system would have compared to previous system, but as dmg is only calculated 1 time for an enemy form this table this part should be better, but the addition of condition dmg to the total_stack table could be quite heavy…

IMO if this is possible for the server to handle (discarding or replacing stacs is overhead as well) ,we would have a possibility for a remake of the present condition system without the stack cap.
Retaining all present possibilities except for the -imidiate- scaling with might and banner, but the effects would carry for the duration of the application instead IMO generally improving condi dps by just a bit.
As individual conditions are no longer traced the amount off additions to the total stacks could be used as a measurement for participation bonusses ingame.

I do know this is a solution in a non dedicated thread but I hope it will be a decent enough suggestion and people will find this…or refer.

Only question I have is how to get all condition dmg recorded. Could so much information be captured and added. if you have the previously mentioned SS warriors all 200 doing a full adrenaline flurry at the same time… you would be collecting dmg for 1000+ conditions in a second if not double the amount, can this be added (if ppl are running sigil of strength or casting FGJ, of losing mighht or food condition dmg values could vary and would this be easily handled by the engine in the second while all other applications, dps and so on are also handled… and would this lead to less load in the end…

Or should we continue basing condition dmg on 25 newest stacks… and replacing all info each time in the table for th newest 25 stacks individually?

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

-snip-

Hybrid builds are also sub optimal.

This thread title is spot on and I hope that when Anet make changes, they do things to improve the performance of condition builds in PVE rather than implement things that serve to invalidate or nerf the effectiveness of zerker.

Reducing the performance of direct damage builds is approaching the problem from the wrong end.

When the occassional frustarted poster says that zerker is too strong and needs nerfing, they are wrong. Direct damage is where it should be. It’s just that condi damage isn’t. I know most people here understand this, but there will still be those voices in the future who cry ‘nerf zerker’.

Do you want to make them “useful” or “popular”? Because technically condition builds can still work though taking down enemies is not going to be as fast. That said, I will admit that they are on the weak side in open PvE and we are slowly transitioning to facing enemies that would need condition-based builds to defeat more quickly.

Malkavian.4516:

Do you want to make them “useful” or “popular”? Because technically condition builds can still work though taking down enemies is not going to be as fast. That said, I will admit that they are on the weak side in open PvE and we are slowly transitioning to facing enemies that would need condition-based builds to defeat more quickly.

Useful. Condition builds work very poorly in its current state. You can’t even kill objects.

sorudo.9054:

…….
ah, so like what we have now where all professions are better…except for necro’s…..-_-

So your suggestion is (again) to disrupt and imbalance the game in other areas so your Necro is desired in a Dungeon speed run group? You are aware there are 7 (soon to be 8 ) other professions you can Dungeon speed run with (and a 3 or 4 of those are very effective in that game mode), right?

Necro viability in Dungeon speed runs is a very specific (and kind of selfish) goal in a much more complicated issue (general Condition Damage system).

Jasher.6580:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

-snip-

Hybrid builds are also sub optimal.

Well I wonder if you ever did map with a condition build…I did with a rabid staff/scepter mesmer,… trust me if you want to run conditions atm make sure you have -some- power…. Killing 15 objects with a zerk build tends to be 30 maybe 45 hits…. when running full condi you will need 45 hits for 1 object.

Condi builds are non viable in situations where your target cannot bleed, usage of condition/power hybrids is very niche itself but -way more easy-.

And do consider there are only 4 armor sets providing both power and condition dmg, 2 are glass, 1 has no crit chance but some additional HP, and the last provides all stats 70% of the normal minor stat value…. (rampager, sinister, carrion, celestial)…. all those have power as minor stat, 2 have condition dmg as major stat…

If you can run zerk somewhere you can also run sinister, you’ll do a bit less dmg but where zerk needs to peel off you will need to as well BUT your stacks keep ticking.
making you able to do the same dmg to a foe on long term engagements. The armor ignoring part can be very usefull in many cases…. and it’s different…

Oh and I will not promote conditions for dungeon use until the condition system is rebuild so conditions are usable. I still remember dungeons in the first weeks after launch with 2 condition necro’s and other condi users in parties. Epidemic necro was a much ran build and full capped bleeds while 2 ppl couldn’t apply any further conditions was something which happened, leaving runs failed from first instance you joined. I would not want to get back to those days…

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

where zerk needs to peel off you will need to as well BUT your stacks keep ticking.

I keep seeing people use this as an example. It really doesn’t work this way in reality.

People make it seem like condi specs can just throw up DoT’s and dodge around and avoid stuff while their damage keeps ticking, whilst zerkers have all this down time while avoiding damage.

It may seem that way when you try to scratch it down on paper, but reality is a far cry from this scenario. ESPECIALLY with Mesmers.

Brother Grimm.5176:

sorudo.9054:

…….
ah, so like what we have now where all professions are better…except for necro’s…..-_-

So your suggestion is (again) to disrupt and imbalance the game in other areas so your Necro is desired in a Dungeon speed run group? You are aware there are 7 (soon to be 8 ) other professions you can Dungeon speed run with (and a 3 or 4 of those are very effective in that game mode), right?

Necro viability in Dungeon speed runs is a very specific (and kind of selfish) goal in a much more complicated issue (general Condition Damage system).

Well for speedrun you need ele’s, guards and thieves. Of course all other classes can bring benefits but are a waste of dps as it is now… rangers can stack vulnerability to 20 stacks in 2 seconds and add spotter, warriors could bannerbuff and Phalanx a bit if engagements take longer then prestacked might and suppply power , mesmers can boonstrip, feedback and timewarp and do moderate melee dmg. Necro’s can do AOE PBAOE, Engineers can do almost anythin, but limited.

But for non speedrun dungeons (so l80 EXP) I see all calsses have functions. and necro can be a dedicated healer/protector, with wells and marks boonstrip and vulnerability applications and acces to AOE blinds, chill cripple, weakness, bleeds poison and so on. And it could take the place of a guardian
Necrocould be used as a hybrid with focus on bleeds, poison and terror and torment, and It could be used as a plain AOE DPS character with well and marks….it will do good AOE dmg…

BUT imagine all being able to take condition dmg…
It would ignore armor and with ultra condition builds it could instantly be the new meta… necro’s can onlly stack up rto 2600 condition dmg as far as I know, mesmers though can stack up to 3000 condition dmg… Just so you know. you’d only need 1 or 2 dps chars for the objects, well guardians are perfect.

Jasher.6580:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

where zerk needs to peel off you will need to as well BUT your stacks keep ticking.

I keep seeing people use this as an example. It really doesn’t work this way in reality.

People make it seem like condi specs can just throw up DoT’s and dodge around and avoid stuff while their damage keeps ticking, whilst zerkers have all this down time while avoiding damage.

It may seem that way when you try to scratch it down on paper, but reality is a far cry from this scenario. ESPECIALLY with Mesmers.

Problem is: What do zerkers have to do with making condition more viable, instead of trying to tell us we think the wrong way pease take some time for self reflection! And try to answer the questions asked in the thread. Your “zerker pawns all” is not constructive. It shows a complete lack of creativity and a striking amount of disinterest.

SO what would you do to inprove viability of conditions in PVE? I mean other then just taking the obvious way and starting about already usefull and used conditions as blinds, chills, weakness, cripples stuns, fear, poison, vulnerability? (and the geneal CC’s (knockdown, push , pull, fear, dazes and stuns of course as they are part of conditions as well.) Which are ALSO overwritten and discarded in the present system! Or in case of the CC’s ignored due to unshakable, defiant and so on. Luckily theyt already posted defiant would be changed.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Your “zerker pawns all” is not constructive. It shows a complete lack of creativity and a striking amount of disinterest.

I play Zerker. What in the world are you talking about? This thread has nothing to do with bashing zerker. If you took the time to actually read the responses you would see that this entire thread is talking about ways to make condition damage a viable option in PvE.

Condi builds do exist in PvE, they’re just not as fast at killing as zerking everything. You have to dot and kite and peanut the mobs to death. But outside of questing and doing things in Orr or SW, you’re limited unless you join a friendly guild, because you’ll never see the inside of a dungeon through pugging.

Jasher.6580:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Your “zerker pawns all” is not constructive. It shows a complete lack of creativity and a striking amount of disinterest.

I play Zerker. What in the world are you talking about? This thread has nothing to do with bashing zerker. If you took the time to actually read the responses you would see that this entire thread is talking about ways to make condition damage a viable option in PvE.

The thread is a request to make condition builds usefull, The only use zerker had is the comparison of dmg…

I’m not bashing zerker, but you stating you run zerker will not improve the condition builds now will it, You do not add anything to the discussion how to make condition builds usefull.

I am very glad the condition caps seem to be under investigation, and overflows seem to be tested. Between the last post and this one we have witnessed 60+: some even reported 100 stacks in a beta trial… This will improve viability for conidtions, and not losing dmg on overflow will improve viability for conditions.

If these 2 things were to be implemented, then condition builds lose the 2 biggest handicaps in this game at the same time…..

We will see… with 100 stacks and overflow, dungeons could theoretically work…

fireflyry.7023:

I’ve been playing a condition build since release and love it. Yeah it needs tweaking and buffing but I have always felt that I am contributing and have been told as much from the people I have played with. It’s also great solo. The only time it’s a hindrance is in boss zergs which are broke as crap anyway, unless you call 30+ players standing in one spot spamming ranged skills fun.

Point being conditions are far from useless, your just caught up in the DPS meta mentality that can be quite easily ignored.

Well said. I run conditions on my warrior and love it.

Why spend more effort proposing solutions when in the past 3 years of repeated threads and suggestions, ArenaNet has replied with less than 3 posts in total in all the threads?

You can look through the Dev Tracker posts and observe the complete lack of anything even tangentially related.

If they ask for feedback, if they talk about changing conditions, adding input then would be good. Right now you’re just wasting effort on something that will disappear beyond the first 20 pages, before someone else restarts it in May.

And nothing will have changed.

Ahhh somebody can’t dodge and wants to spam condis from afar with autoattack while watching his/her favorite anime. I see what you did there OP

Condition damage won’t be useful in PvE as long as stacks are shared. The idea of raising the cap seems good in theory, letting other classes get their bleeds in, but all id does it make it a race to get your dots in and with world bosses, even a 50 cap is easily reached. It’s the Hatfield vs McCoy scenario. The only way to make Condi viable in PvE is for everyone to get their own bleed or Dot stacks. People are scream it lags the server, lags the connection, too much resources, etc. But there’s a hard fact that has to be faced. In a dungeon or world boss, how many condi classes are there stacking? And if that much reduces performance then Anet needs to step up or NC Soft and upgrade to handle the extra data from separate stacks.

Increases bleed stack size will only make Condi builds even more useless because they’ll have to struggle even more to get their dots in. Think about how quick 25 bleeds can get up on Grenth or Mel. Even if they increase it to 30, or 50 stacks, the problem is still there, Condi is shared.

Not to mention if they do increase stack size, what about old world content? It’ll have to be retuned, meaning bosses in Orr will need their HP increased to overcome being melted down even quicker by increased stack size.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Ahhh somebody can’t dodge and wants to spam condis from afar with autoattack while watching his/her favorite anime. I see what you did there OP

if you go power on ranged classes, then the rotation is exactly the same. For example if I’m rotating trough my earth and fire while on a hybrid ele, it doesn’t require any more effort than rotating trough all 4 specs on the exact same ele (as must as s/d is considered). Same with staff. I can also say the same for my necro. In order to keep bleeds up it requires the exact same effort as spammnig ranged power attacks.

You guys do know that they’ve already announced the first fix and told us more fixes are coming before/when HoT arrives….

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Increased-Bleeding-Stacks/first

Shadowmoon.7986:

Anet fails at balancing when they argue that zerker should do the most damage because it is all offense, but doesn’t fix rampager, assassin and sinister stat combos (all offense only combos) so they are on par with zerker.

Didn’t someone show that for certain classes, assassin gear was better in organised groups where you would reliably have 25 stacks of might?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

You guys do know that they’ve already announced the first fix and told us more fixes are coming before/when HoT arrives….

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Increased-Bleeding-Stacks/first

This is fantastic.