Guild Wars 2

timmyf.1490:

My assumption is that T6 mat requirements would remain the same since you didn’t state in your original post that T7, T8, and T9 mats would be introduced.

You’re of course welcome to your own opinion on farming, but it’s far less obviously beneficial to the entire playerbase than you claim. Farming has a purpose, an IMPORTANT purpose, but there’s still the matter of degree to worry about. A 100 Champ Bag/Hour farm is hard to justify, but I give you credit for trying.

The thing I read here is “I didn’t farm easily for my ascended/legendary/whatever, so no one should.” Why aren’t you saying that getting exotics is too easy already? Why ascended or legendaries cannot be easy to acquire? Is the only reason for it the fear of losing a long-term goal in the game?

I think it is. I also think that ascended is balanced quite nicely in term of gating and being a long-term goal (not in terms of weight cost discrepancy though), even though a bit of toning down on material cost won’t hurt with all the other restrictions from NPE, the trait system and such. I also say that farming is what makes long-term goals closer for everyone, not only for farmers, especially in short term; which is also why developers don’t like farming.

Lishtenbird.2814:

I think it is. I also think that ascended is balanced quite nicely in term of gating and being a long-term goal (not in terms of weight cost discrepancy though), even though a bit of toning down on material cost won’t hurt with all the other restrictions from NPE, the trait system and such. I also say that farming is what makes long-term goals closer for everyone, not only for farmers, especially in short term; which is also why developers don’t like farming.

I agree. I wouldn’t consider this game, or the original to be “Farmer Friendly”. Which is why I don’t farm.

Lishtenbird.2814:

As I said before, if a player goes around the map doing dynamic events and killing random moas, then the best he deserves really is Orr karma gear and some poultry meat. You can cry “farmers! farmers!” as much as you like, but unless you’re working really hard to earn money (harder than others), you won’t get anything – that’s basic economics and common sense.

But wasn’t the original vision of the game to travel this huge dynamic world, happen by incredible dynamic events, partake in them and marvel at the wonder while building your legend? What you mock and dismiss was actually part of the beauty of the game.

And lets be clear, by no means did I simply wander the map to make the wealth I have, if I did wander about and perform hearts I would have a fraction of even what I have now. I’m ashamed to say that I now actually keep in mind the relative value of my actions for how much they’re likely to earn (rather than look for challenge, new horizons, and the opportunity to be heroic). This simple fact is actually a rather tragic loss for what I feel the real spirit of the game is, and what it originally strove to be.

I’ve had to do this because I would like to one day be able to purchase a rare good (that hasn’t been made un-naturally cheap by farming). I’ve had to do this because money is made out of nothing in this game, and the supply is constantly increasing. I highly suspect farmers don’t decrease supply of money as a net effect.

I can’t get as much money for the things I’m more likely to find (as you’ve pointed out those things are likely to drop in value), and with the increasing supply the money I have is worth less and less for buying the things I am not likely to find (and no one else is).

When the game developers set new prices for things I would like to have and build in game, they do so with a mind to how much money the people likely to go for them have. They likely say, we want to make this item a prestige one, what cost would make it meaningful so that it would stay prestigous and give our hamsters something to spin the wheel for keeping them occupied. And thus you set how much the thread to build the new ascended gear will be worth. Or how much the latest super bag of holding’s runes will be.

So don’t fool yourself, the ease at which farming can be performed and generate wealth, can directly impact in a negative way those who would like things in the game that have real rarity. It devalues our money relative to rare goods we want, Impacts developer decisions on NPC costs, alters the price of gems, and reduces the value we can sell comodities we’re more likely to find for.

The complaint you get is that many people didn’t buy this game to play economic farmwars 2. As exciting as that may be to you, having areas that make getting money, and resources trivially simple does impact others in a negative way.

Or am I mistaken and the game was actually called farm wars, and it was sold as a game where you build little clocks, know exactly when the most profitable events are going to happen, fail them on purpose (very legendary) and stand around in the same place, repeating the same actions mind-numbingly, to flood the market with various commodities?

You can see why some people would prefer this not to be an option in the game, can’t you? You are not isolated, you do have rippling impact on everyone else.

Lishtenbird.2814:

This is a long-term goal and a race against other players, just like any other expensive item in an active MMO. You don’t want to race – you have to wait for the item to drop for you. But once you got your precursor, take a look at T6 mats and think about how many of those you can get in comparison to the fixed reward from a single dungeon run, and how the current “farm of the month” affected it.

If it’s a race, I’d prefer it be one where those playing the story for the stories sake were actually contenders in the race as well. I didn’t buy this game to try to figure out the latest exploit in making money until it gets patched. I have stocks in real life, this was sold to me as a cooperative game with my fellow players. A little world vs world thrown in for fun if that interested you. Not figure out where the developer oversight was and try to repeat the same tired cycle of actions over and over until you out-bore the other players – the race.

And finally, if your farming is generating so many precursors, and this has made them so cheap, then lets look back at 6 months into the game and the median amount of gold players had, vs. precursor price. Let’s look now at the median value in a players accounts relative to precursor prices. Do you think the ratio has gotten BETTER? No, because you ignore important facts, while you do create supply, you increase money far more, and so we’re worse off than before, not better.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Why ascended or legendaries cannot be easy to acquire?

Because Legendaries are supposed to be difficult (more accurately “expensive and time-consuming,” not difficult) to acquire. That is the fundamental design of the game.

I shouldn’t have to defend the fundamental design of the game. You should have to explain why you want to change that. Furthermore, you should have to explain why the way you want to change that is to allow for people to perform the same simple action for hours and hours on end.

The burden of proving the worth of change is on the party who wishes to change things.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Everything you asid was right, but…You seem to completely ignore the other side of the coin.

If a farm is too profitable a number of things happen that are bad for the game:

1. creates a split community. The people who participate in the farm quickly gain wealth, while those who don’t are left behind. This leads to a rich get richer, poor get poorer scenario where the community is fractured.

2. Mats become too common, continually falling in price until they eventually hit vendor price. This may seem like a good thing until you realize that the only thing that keeps most people playing the game is having long term goals. If they can suddenly buy every awesome skin they want in one day the game quickly becomes stale and boring and many players leave. This was a major problem in the beginning of the game and is why ascended gear was introduced. Devaluing ascended gear like this farm did is going to end up with a lot of players quitting and they may need to add in a new gear tier to bring them back.

The “rich” are not out there grinding for mats to sell. The “rich” are flipping legendaries and looking for emerging markets on the TP. Farmers are like a nice upper-middle class. Taking them out of the game is doing exactly what you think you’re preventing. These people are generating materials and items from their gameplay. They’re taking money out of the game and adding items of value for the consumer to buy. They’re ensuring that you can actually afford to buy mats and weapons.

Let’s stay away from statements like “only thing that keeps most people playing the game is having long term goals”. You don’t know what goals people set in the game. Stale and boring are 100% opinion based. Let’s stay away from assuming players will quit because Ascended gear is being devalued.

Objectively, farming is making mats, weapons, and gear more affordable to the average player’s wallet.

“Objectively, farming is making mats, weapons, and gear more affordable to the average player’s wallet.”

It’s also helpfully diminishing the value of the goods your more likely to find (as they can be farmed). And I haven’t seen precursors get more affordable? Or Gems get cheaper to purchase? I used to be able to buy an extra bank expansion slot for 14G if I recall (my first one). How much more affordable is it now for me to buy, hmmm? I mean objectively speaking.

thehipone.6812:

You assumed perfectly inelastic demand for what is essentially a luxury item. The way you presented it, demand was not a curve, as you claim it to be, but a vertical line ( 100 bought @ 2g, 100 bought @ 4g, two points define a line). This is severely flawed.

Yes, you’re right, I noticed later that I confused the last part and that is what timmyf might have tried to point out; the whole thing mixed several either-ors. I corrected the first post to depict several scenarios and changed lodestones to more neutral blobies.

timmyf.1490:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Why ascended or legendaries cannot be easy to acquire?

Because Legendaries are supposed to be difficult (more accurately “expensive and time-consuming,” not difficult) to acquire. That is the fundamental design of the game.

I shouldn’t have to defend the fundamental design of the game. You should have to explain why you want to change that. Furthermore, you should have to explain why the way you want to change that is to allow for people to perform the same simple action for hours and hours on end.

The burden of proving the worth of change is on the party who wishes to change things.

I don’t see where I wanted to “change” anything or said that I wanted to turn all GW2 into Silverwaste chestfarm. I’ve written enough in this thread to make it clear why moderate farming is good, and how more-than-moderate farming can affect the economy. A lot of people, disregarding entitled ones, are constantly mentioning that the game feels unrewarding and the main gameplay rewards should be improved – and they say it for a reason. People want long-term goals (like precursors) to be shorter, and preferably shorter via actual fun and gameplay; the developers, however, do not want it, as they live from a) retaining players via forcing them to grind for ultimate goals for years and trying to sell them something along the way and b) getting real cash from those players who prefer paying to grinding. So I don’t really see anything changing in the future anyway.

shion.2084:

But wasn’t the original vision of the game to travel this huge dynamic world, happen by incredible dynamic events, partake in them and marvel at the wonder while building your legend? What you mock and dismiss was actually part of the beauty of the game.

Don’t shoot the messenger. Turn your question to developers. But I already know what the (silent) reply would be: casual gaming means casual rewards; 2 years into the game, casual rewards are still enough to play all PvE (including low-level fractals); but if you want exclusive rewards, you either grind (invest time) or pay (invest money) – because GW2 still is a business.

As for your precursor and gem prices questions, these things have already been answered thousands of times (multiple times in this thread, too), and obliviously blaming farmers for it is just looking for a scapegoat.

shion.2084:

“Objectively, farming is making mats, weapons, and gear more affordable to the average player’s wallet.”

It’s also helpfully diminishing the value of the goods your more likely to find (as they can be farmed). And I haven’t seen precursors get more affordable? Or Gems get cheaper to purchase? I used to be able to buy an extra bank expansion slot for 14G if I recall (my first one). How much more affordable is it now for me to buy, hmmm? I mean objectively speaking.

Common things, like gems, become more expensive as more gold drips into the economy. Selling items you’ve farmed however destroys gold.
Rare things, like precursors, get more expensive as more players have a lot of gold.

So if someone farms a lot of gold, prices of common goods drop while prices of rare good rise. But don’t worry, there already so many players out there who have way more gold than everyone else so precursor prices wont rise that much.

Lishtenbird.2814:

I don’t see where I wanted to “change” anything or said that I wanted to turn all GW2 into Silverwaste chestfarm. I’ve written enough in this thread to make it clear why moderate farming is good, and how more-than-moderate farming can affect the economy. A lot of people, disregarding entitled ones, are constantly mentioning that the game feels unrewarding and the main gameplay rewards should be improved – and they say it for a reason. People want long-term goals (like precursors) to be shorter, and preferably shorter via actual fun and gameplay; the developers, however, do not want it, as they live from a) retaining players via forcing them to grind for ultimate goals for years and trying to sell them something along the way and b) getting real cash from those players who prefer paying to grinding. So I don’t really see anything changing in the future anyway.

That all seems fair. I took this post as an implicit defense of the SW farm pre-nerf and shouldn’t have.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Common things, like gems, become more expensive as more gold drips into the economy. Selling items you’ve farmed however destroys gold.
Rare things, like precursors, get more expensive as more players have a lot of gold.

So if someone farms a lot of gold, prices of common goods drop while prices of rare good rise. But don’t worry, there already so many players out there who have way more gold than everyone else so precursor prices wont rise that much.

So when you farm and get a lot of those leather mats, and sell them to an NPC at 250 stacks for about a gold… you are destroying gold?

Rare things get even more expensive when the wealth is not as evenly distributed. It’s not just sheer volume of money (which farmers actually increase) it’s also the unequal distribution of wealth. There’s more to it than what is being explained in these posts. They are not capturing the whole picture and conveniently missing out on inconvenient truths for the sake of promoting an agenda. If we’re going to objectively discuss we should discuss both sides.

hybrid.5027:

shion.2084:

This is great news! So you’re telling me that farming isn’t causing inflation, but is lowering prices? Awesome because I’d really like to buy a precursor since I’ve never had one drop (probably because I don’t farm enough).

So since I’ve been playing the enjoyable way to me, fractals, map exploration, a dungeon or two in a session, and saved almost every penny I’ve made for the last 809 days, I’m now closer to buying a precursor? I’ve got 401 gold Which one can I buy?

And when I get really lucky and manage to find a lvl 400 crafting material, can it sell for a lot to get me closer to my goal? Or has the majority of fairly “rare” things I am likely to come across now been devalued, while inflation has increased significantly for things that can’t be farmed?

Farming gold (dungeons) and farming mats (open world champ farms) have two different effects on the price of materials. In an ideal world the gold supply generated from dungeons will match the mat supply generated from open world and lead to price equilibrium/stability… which is basically where we have been for several months besides this last patch lowering material prices.

Not sure I agree that we’ve had prices being stable.

Since I started the game around march, prices of Powerful Blood have doubled. And this last month has been the most volatile of that time seeing quite the spike. Now, I just assume normal slow inflation for the majority of that, but they say that doesn’t exist so /shrug. Of course there are varying supply/demand shifts to explain some of the larger shifts.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Don’t shoot the messenger. Turn your question to developers. But I already know what the (silent) reply would be: casual gaming means casual rewards; 2 years into the game, casual rewards are still enough to play all PvE (including low-level fractals); but if you want exclusive rewards, you either grind (invest time) or pay (invest money) – because GW2 still is a business.

As for your precursor and gem prices questions, these things have already been answered thousands of times (multiple times in this thread, too), and obliviously blaming farmers for it is just looking for a scapegoat.

You have resorted to an ad hominem attack rather than address my points.

Take even the simplest of them

I contend that farmers will tend to increase the money supply on a whole and not decrease it. Are you saying this is incorrect? Are you seriously contending that the net total effect of farming is a substantial decrease to the money supply out there in GW2?

If it increases money supply then having done so will have a net effect of putting upward pressure on the price of gems.

Please don’t argue my point is wrong because it’s uninformed. That is logically fallacious. I might well be un-informed but that has no bearing on whether my statement is actually correct or not.

Jerus.4350:

hybrid.5027:

shion.2084:

This is great news! So you’re telling me that farming isn’t causing inflation, but is lowering prices? Awesome because I’d really like to buy a precursor since I’ve never had one drop (probably because I don’t farm enough).

So since I’ve been playing the enjoyable way to me, fractals, map exploration, a dungeon or two in a session, and saved almost every penny I’ve made for the last 809 days, I’m now closer to buying a precursor? I’ve got 401 gold Which one can I buy?

And when I get really lucky and manage to find a lvl 400 crafting material, can it sell for a lot to get me closer to my goal? Or has the majority of fairly “rare” things I am likely to come across now been devalued, while inflation has increased significantly for things that can’t be farmed?

Farming gold (dungeons) and farming mats (open world champ farms) have two different effects on the price of materials. In an ideal world the gold supply generated from dungeons will match the mat supply generated from open world and lead to price equilibrium/stability… which is basically where we have been for several months besides this last patch lowering material prices.

Not sure I agree that we’ve had prices being stable.

Since I started the game around march, prices of Powerful Blood have doubled. And this last month has been the most volatile of that time seeing quite the spike. Now, I just assume normal slow inflation for the majority of that, but they say that doesn’t exist so /shrug. Of course there are varying supply/demand shifts to explain some of the larger shifts.

Prices spiked significantly when the April feature patch introduced the wardrobe and created a demand spike. That demand spike subsided in about August and more or less prices have been stable since then, especially items like precursors which began to decline in price a small amount since their peak. This patch introduce a supply shock of silk, t5 and t6 mats (among others) which sent those prices down drastically.

The economy is (somewhat) balanced around the concept that 10g/hour is generated from the best gold farms and 10g/hour is generated from the best material farms, though obviously examples of better rates exist. That balance leads to price equilibrium. The SW farm lead to significantly more than 10g/hour of materials being generated per player and sent prices out of equilibrium.

shion.2084:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Common things, like gems, become more expensive as more gold drips into the economy. Selling items you’ve farmed however destroys gold.
Rare things, like precursors, get more expensive as more players have a lot of gold.

So if someone farms a lot of gold, prices of common goods drop while prices of rare good rise. But don’t worry, there already so many players out there who have way more gold than everyone else so precursor prices wont rise that much.

So when you farm and get a lot of those leather mats, and sell them to an NPC at 250 stacks for about a gold… you are destroying gold?

He’s referring to selling on the TP where the fees act as a gold sink.

I just keep looking at that picture and keep thinking it looks like a pretty steady increase over time.

True though August-Oct it leveled out a bit, dipping mid october then shooting back up around halloween – nov patch then falling back down to around that pre halloween level.

I’ve had people use the same explanation as you are here, but I just can’t shake that picture. People are claiming that the prices have not been increasing but I look at that picture and it’s pretty night and day that the prices are higher now than they were months ago and it’s quite a steady increase with some dips and gains here and there as to be expected.

I mean if the demand increase is over from april’s patch, why are they not down in the 40 silver range? Why is it considered an artificial drop for them to go as low as 60silver?

Everytime I look at that graph and talk about this I’m honestly tempted to just throw my money into Powerful bloods as an investment.

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Common things, like gems, become more expensive as more gold drips into the economy. Selling items you’ve farmed however destroys gold.
Rare things, like precursors, get more expensive as more players have a lot of gold.

So if someone farms a lot of gold, prices of common goods drop while prices of rare good rise. But don’t worry, there already so many players out there who have way more gold than everyone else so precursor prices wont rise that much.

So when you farm and get a lot of those leather mats, and sell them to an NPC at 250 stacks for about a gold… you are destroying gold?

He’s referring to selling on the TP where the fees act as a gold sink.

Exactly. This is my point. The OP is only looking at one aspect when he claims the benefits of farming in being a gold sink.

I’m pointing out other considerations that have been conveniently overlooked. Even this trivial one is a point… Once you drive common goods down to NPC minimum prices, you suddenly result in everyone selling directly to NPC and thus you ruin the sink in gold there. You in fact create a sudden increase in gold from nothing, as its no longer players paying for whats being sold. It’s money from nothing. The arguments the OP has made are not really looking objectively at the topic from all angles.

Consider this thought experiment. Take the halloween festivities, and work out what happens when you had dedicated labrynth farmers or maize balm farmers making TOT bags. How could farming hurt anyone you say? Farming is a net gold sink you say? Well don’t we have stats on how many bags were opened?

I’m assuming a lot of the people farming actually opened there bags, that the majority of bags were not in fact sold on the TP. Now if people simply took the skulls, corn, fangs, potions etc. and sold the excess at the end of halloween to merchants, how much extra money has been dumped into the supply do you think?

The Labrynth is an excellent example of a lucrative farm. Are you telling me you think that the net result of the labrynth events was in fact a decrease in the amount of money out there?

Think about what would happen if they didn’t “nerf” (aka remove) this farm at the end of the 2 week period and left it available all year round. What would be the net effect?

shion.2084:

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Common things, like gems, become more expensive as more gold drips into the economy. Selling items you’ve farmed however destroys gold.
Rare things, like precursors, get more expensive as more players have a lot of gold.

So if someone farms a lot of gold, prices of common goods drop while prices of rare good rise. But don’t worry, there already so many players out there who have way more gold than everyone else so precursor prices wont rise that much.

So when you farm and get a lot of those leather mats, and sell them to an NPC at 250 stacks for about a gold… you are destroying gold?

He’s referring to selling on the TP where the fees act as a gold sink.

Exactly. This is my point. The OP is only looking at one aspect when he claims the benefits of farming in being a gold sink.

I’m pointing out other considerations that have been conveniently overlooked. Even this trivial one is a point… Once you drive common goods down to NPC minimum prices, you suddenly result in everyone selling directly to NPC and thus you ruin the sink in gold there. You in fact create a sudden increase in gold from nothing, as its no longer players paying for whats being sold. It’s money from nothing. The arguments the OP has made are not really looking objectively at the topic from all angles.

So you’re discounting the benefits of farming and selling on the TP due to the downside when done excessively? Could you clarify?

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Common things, like gems, become more expensive as more gold drips into the economy. Selling items you’ve farmed however destroys gold.
Rare things, like precursors, get more expensive as more players have a lot of gold.

So if someone farms a lot of gold, prices of common goods drop while prices of rare good rise. But don’t worry, there already so many players out there who have way more gold than everyone else so precursor prices wont rise that much.

So when you farm and get a lot of those leather mats, and sell them to an NPC at 250 stacks for about a gold… you are destroying gold?

He’s referring to selling on the TP where the fees act as a gold sink.

Exactly. This is my point. The OP is only looking at one aspect when he claims the benefits of farming in being a gold sink.

I’m pointing out other considerations that have been conveniently overlooked. Even this trivial one is a point… Once you drive common goods down to NPC minimum prices, you suddenly result in everyone selling directly to NPC and thus you ruin the sink in gold there. You in fact create a sudden increase in gold from nothing, as its no longer players paying for whats being sold. It’s money from nothing. The arguments the OP has made are not really looking objectively at the topic from all angles.

So you’re discounting the benefits of farming and selling on the TP due to the downside when done excessively? Could you clarify?

How was I discounting? I didn’t say selling on the TP isn’t a gold sink. I was simply mentioning conveniently overlooked facts to the argument that the farming process only reduces money supply by pointing out that sometimes it doesn’t.

shion.2084:

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Common things, like gems, become more expensive as more gold drips into the economy. Selling items you’ve farmed however destroys gold.
Rare things, like precursors, get more expensive as more players have a lot of gold.

So if someone farms a lot of gold, prices of common goods drop while prices of rare good rise. But don’t worry, there already so many players out there who have way more gold than everyone else so precursor prices wont rise that much.

So when you farm and get a lot of those leather mats, and sell them to an NPC at 250 stacks for about a gold… you are destroying gold?

He’s referring to selling on the TP where the fees act as a gold sink.

Exactly. This is my point. The OP is only looking at one aspect when he claims the benefits of farming in being a gold sink.

I’m pointing out other considerations that have been conveniently overlooked. Even this trivial one is a point… Once you drive common goods down to NPC minimum prices, you suddenly result in everyone selling directly to NPC and thus you ruin the sink in gold there.

If a good is down to vendor prices, it’s more profitable to farm something else.
And to even get a good down to vendor prices you have to produce way more of that good than the players are buying.

shion.2084:

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Common things, like gems, become more expensive as more gold drips into the economy. Selling items you’ve farmed however destroys gold.
Rare things, like precursors, get more expensive as more players have a lot of gold.

So if someone farms a lot of gold, prices of common goods drop while prices of rare good rise. But don’t worry, there already so many players out there who have way more gold than everyone else so precursor prices wont rise that much.

So when you farm and get a lot of those leather mats, and sell them to an NPC at 250 stacks for about a gold… you are destroying gold?

He’s referring to selling on the TP where the fees act as a gold sink.

Exactly. This is my point. The OP is only looking at one aspect when he claims the benefits of farming in being a gold sink.

I’m pointing out other considerations that have been conveniently overlooked. Even this trivial one is a point… Once you drive common goods down to NPC minimum prices, you suddenly result in everyone selling directly to NPC and thus you ruin the sink in gold there. You in fact create a sudden increase in gold from nothing, as its no longer players paying for whats being sold. It’s money from nothing. The arguments the OP has made are not really looking objectively at the topic from all angles.

So you’re discounting the benefits of farming and selling on the TP due to the downside when done excessively? Could you clarify?

How was I discounting? I didn’t say selling on the TP isn’t a gold sink. I was simply mentioning conveniently overlooked facts to the argument that the farming process only reduces money supply by pointing out that sometimes it doesn’t.

I was referring to what seemed like you were saying farming wasn’t beneficial as you’re pointing out scenarios where it’s done to the extreme of sorts. That’s why I was asking for clarification so I knew what your position was.

Edit:

Farming something to the point that prices drop to vendor prices isn’t good as people will just sell to vendor and avoid the gold sink. That’s one of the points you made and I do agree with. When I read the rest, it came off as you were saying that all farming was bad as the items had the potential to hit vendor prices if farmed excessively. I was asking for clarification to make sure what your stance was and if this assumption was correct.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

shion.2084:

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Common things, like gems, become more expensive as more gold drips into the economy. Selling items you’ve farmed however destroys gold.
Rare things, like precursors, get more expensive as more players have a lot of gold.

So if someone farms a lot of gold, prices of common goods drop while prices of rare good rise. But don’t worry, there already so many players out there who have way more gold than everyone else so precursor prices wont rise that much.

So when you farm and get a lot of those leather mats, and sell them to an NPC at 250 stacks for about a gold… you are destroying gold?

He’s referring to selling on the TP where the fees act as a gold sink.

Exactly. This is my point. The OP is only looking at one aspect when he claims the benefits of farming in being a gold sink.

I’m pointing out other considerations that have been conveniently overlooked. Even this trivial one is a point… Once you drive common goods down to NPC minimum prices, you suddenly result in everyone selling directly to NPC and thus you ruin the sink in gold there.

If a good is down to vendor prices, it’s more profitable to farm something else.
And to even get a good down to vendor prices you have to produce way more of that good than the players are buying.

I wasn’t saying you were intending to farm the object that hit min value. That would be silly. They’re usually just a side effect of attempting to get the item farmed.

And yes, farming produces way more of certain goods than players are buying. So players then sell to NPC, and thus make money from nothing whereas they otherwise woudl have resorted to the TP and been a gold sink.

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Common things, like gems, become more expensive as more gold drips into the economy. Selling items you’ve farmed however destroys gold.
Rare things, like precursors, get more expensive as more players have a lot of gold.

So if someone farms a lot of gold, prices of common goods drop while prices of rare good rise. But don’t worry, there already so many players out there who have way more gold than everyone else so precursor prices wont rise that much.

So when you farm and get a lot of those leather mats, and sell them to an NPC at 250 stacks for about a gold… you are destroying gold?

He’s referring to selling on the TP where the fees act as a gold sink.

Exactly. This is my point. The OP is only looking at one aspect when he claims the benefits of farming in being a gold sink.

I’m pointing out other considerations that have been conveniently overlooked. Even this trivial one is a point… Once you drive common goods down to NPC minimum prices, you suddenly result in everyone selling directly to NPC and thus you ruin the sink in gold there. You in fact create a sudden increase in gold from nothing, as its no longer players paying for whats being sold. It’s money from nothing. The arguments the OP has made are not really looking objectively at the topic from all angles.

So you’re discounting the benefits of farming and selling on the TP due to the downside when done excessively? Could you clarify?

How was I discounting? I didn’t say selling on the TP isn’t a gold sink. I was simply mentioning conveniently overlooked facts to the argument that the farming process only reduces money supply by pointing out that sometimes it doesn’t.

I was referring to what seemed like you were saying farming wasn’t beneficial as you’re pointing out scenarios where it’s done to the extreme of sorts. That’s why I was asking for clarification so I knew what your position was.

Thank you for taking the time to ask before blasting away

shion.2084:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

shion.2084:

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Common things, like gems, become more expensive as more gold drips into the economy. Selling items you’ve farmed however destroys gold.
Rare things, like precursors, get more expensive as more players have a lot of gold.

So if someone farms a lot of gold, prices of common goods drop while prices of rare good rise. But don’t worry, there already so many players out there who have way more gold than everyone else so precursor prices wont rise that much.

So when you farm and get a lot of those leather mats, and sell them to an NPC at 250 stacks for about a gold… you are destroying gold?

He’s referring to selling on the TP where the fees act as a gold sink.

Exactly. This is my point. The OP is only looking at one aspect when he claims the benefits of farming in being a gold sink.

I’m pointing out other considerations that have been conveniently overlooked. Even this trivial one is a point… Once you drive common goods down to NPC minimum prices, you suddenly result in everyone selling directly to NPC and thus you ruin the sink in gold there.

If a good is down to vendor prices, it’s more profitable to farm something else.
And to even get a good down to vendor prices you have to produce way more of that good than the players are buying.

I wasn’t saying you were intending to farm the object that hit min value. That would be silly. They’re usually just a side effect of attempting to get the item farmed.

And yes, farming produces way more of certain goods than players are buying. So players then sell to NPC, and thus make money from nothing whereas they otherwise woudl have resorted to the TP and been a gold sink.

If we would follow your mindset, then you would be right. But your mindset is wrong. Farmers are the main source of supplies in this game; without them the prices on the TP would be much higher. Furthermore, the prices get determined by the interplay of demand and supply. If all players would start farming , then the prices would drop to vendor value, but not only because there is an oversupply of good but also because there is no demand for those goods.
The economy is a free market and if there is an oversupply of certain good, players will start to farm something else with a higher margin.

The only flaw farming has is the creation of unwanted goods, as phys has pointed out several times now. Those unwanted, or less desired goods could drop in price as long as they are the byproduct of goods that have a higher margin.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

shion.2084:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

shion.2084:

Ayrilana.1396:

shion.2084:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Common things, like gems, become more expensive as more gold drips into the economy. Selling items you’ve farmed however destroys gold.
Rare things, like precursors, get more expensive as more players have a lot of gold.

So if someone farms a lot of gold, prices of common goods drop while prices of rare good rise. But don’t worry, there already so many players out there who have way more gold than everyone else so precursor prices wont rise that much.

So when you farm and get a lot of those leather mats, and sell them to an NPC at 250 stacks for about a gold… you are destroying gold?

He’s referring to selling on the TP where the fees act as a gold sink.

Exactly. This is my point. The OP is only looking at one aspect when he claims the benefits of farming in being a gold sink.

I’m pointing out other considerations that have been conveniently overlooked. Even this trivial one is a point… Once you drive common goods down to NPC minimum prices, you suddenly result in everyone selling directly to NPC and thus you ruin the sink in gold there.

If a good is down to vendor prices, it’s more profitable to farm something else.
And to even get a good down to vendor prices you have to produce way more of that good than the players are buying.

I wasn’t saying you were intending to farm the object that hit min value. That would be silly. They’re usually just a side effect of attempting to get the item farmed.

And yes, farming produces way more of certain goods than players are buying. So players then sell to NPC, and thus make money from nothing whereas they otherwise woudl have resorted to the TP and been a gold sink.

If we would follow your mindset, then you would be right. But your mindset is wrong. Farmers are the main source of supplies in this game; without them the prices on the TP would be much higher. Furthermore, the prices get determined by the interplay of demand and supply. If all players would start farming , then the prices would drop to vendor value, but not only because there is an oversupply of good but also because there is no demand for those goods.
The economy is a free market and if there is an oversupply of certain good, players will start to farm something else with a higher margin.

No you miss my point I think. I’m saying the oversupply is in the unintentionally farmed by-products. The things you pick up that you didn’t want. Once farming produces so many unintentional leather strips for instance, that NPC price is met, suddenly everywhere in the game, people start selling to the NPC and making money from nothing, that wouldn’t have happened without the out of check supply. I am not saying you were actually intentionally farming leather strips.

You also generate money from farming, as certain monsters give you trophies to be sold. Heck sometimes you get money drops directly I think. This is another part where the “farming only reduces money supply” falls apart.

Look at halloween, after 15 min in the dungeon I could make a large some in trophies alone. These actions (selling trophies) are not increasing supply. What I’m telling you is these parts of the action are increasing the amount of money in the game, which devalues everyone elses when trying to buy gems, very rare goods, etc. I think I;ve explained this.

Take a look at the halloween model and extrapolate what would happen if that was left up year round. Then understand what farming “also” does in addition to create this helpful supply.

It becomes a problem when buying things from the store becomes the higher activity than actually playing the game and being rewarded. I don’t know about you but buying things has always been less fun to me. I’d much rather reach a goal through currency like marks than buy an item from another player who just happened to be lucky enough to get the lottery ticket. Arenanet needs to take a page from what Blizzard discovered in Diablo III and follow suit.

tigirius.9014:

It becomes a problem when buying things from the store becomes the higher activity than actually playing the game and being rewarded. I don’t know about you but buying things has always been less fun to me. I’d much rather reach a goal through currency like marks than buy an item from another player who just happened to be lucky enough to get the lottery ticket. Arenanet needs to take a page from what Blizzard discovered in Diablo III and follow suit.

That’s a problem with the implementation of the economy, one I agree with, rather than a problem with the economy itself.

I can play the game more if I have a bank slot to stash my stuff. I don’t really like the run back to your guild bank aspect of the game.

I have never bought a cosmetic item from the store. Only game functional ones, which I’m sort of forced to since they keep spewing out different currencies etc. etc.

It’s not that farmers are bad. It’s exploiting a mechanic that in the end destabilizes the economy in an unexpected way as well as preventing a scripted event from playing out they way the event designer planned.

I classify those who leap onto such an exploit in the same boot as those who stop on a highway to grab money that fell out of an armor truck or use an ATM or coin changer that gives you twice the money you asked for. Deep down you know this is too good to be true but you seize onto it and then get upset when it’s fixed.

It’s the (l)awful good contingent that looks at what’s going on, know that it isn’t right who are stunned by the avarice of those who seize upon it and believe that if it’s doable in the game it’s okay. It’s like the thread that laments you can’t go beyond the boundary of the map anymore and complain as if it was a bug. No the bug was you could go beyond the boundary of the map and fixing it isn’t a bug.

The OP is a really nice dissertation of farming. It is very logical and provides a lot of food for thought.

In my opinion most people dislike farmers because farmers are able to get things that the people who dislike them aren’t getting because they don’t want to farm. Does this make the people who don’t want to farm wrong? Is farming really the way the developers want people to play their game?

shion.2084:

Lishtenbird.2814:

As I said before, if a player goes around the map doing dynamic events and killing random moas, then the best he deserves really is Orr karma gear and some poultry meat. You can cry “farmers! farmers!” as much as you like, but unless you’re working really hard to earn money (harder than others), you won’t get anything – that’s basic economics and common sense.

But wasn’t the original vision of the game to travel this huge dynamic world, happen by incredible dynamic events, partake in them and marvel at the wonder while building your legend? What you mock and dismiss was actually part of the beauty of the game.

Lishtenbird.2814:

This is a long-term goal and a race against other players, just like any other expensive item in an active MMO. You don’t want to race – you have to wait for the item to drop for you. But once you got your precursor, take a look at T6 mats and think about how many of those you can get in comparison to the fixed reward from a single dungeon run, and how the current “farm of the month” affected it.

If it’s a race, I’d prefer it be one where those playing the story for the stories sake were actually contenders in the race as well. I didn’t buy this game to try to figure out the latest exploit in making money until it gets patched. I have stocks in real life, this was sold to me as a cooperative game with my fellow players. A little world vs world thrown in for fun if that interested you. Not figure out where the developer oversight was and try to repeat the same tired cycle of actions over and over until you out-bore the other players – the race.

This entire post was awesome but I wanted to especially focus on these bits. I don’t like grinding. As shion says it is too much like RL. I play a game to get away from RL. But not only is it a shame that this beautiful and creative game has become nothing more than numbers on a graph to a lot of people, it is also a shame that those who actually play the game are not rewarded MORE for doing so than those who treat the game as nothing but a system to be “worked”.

Sizer.5632:

Seems like a slightly more polite version of the other complaint threads about the chest farm being fixed, which is an improvement i guess.

Still no matter what arguments you come up with to justify you deserving to farm 10 champ bags every 5 minutes with 0 effort, rational people (ie the devs) arent going to agree. If they did agree then the queensdale champ trains or any of the other easy farms in the past would not have been nerfed.

People aren’t defending the farm, people are defending against all the stupid people who complain about how farmers ruin everything and want to see them gone.

shion.2084:

That’s nice, so if I want to pay real money I can buy it… Not exactly epic to “win” my legendary weapon by handing over my credit card.

Lets put it this way, I’ve been playing my way continuously and making money at a steady rate. I used to be able to afford a precursor, and now they are astronomically out of my reach. However I’m told that farming is lowering the price. Makes me glad all these farmers are around or who knows how expensive precursors would be, eh?

Consider that farming tends to put money in a small subset of the populations hands. Lets say hypothetically even that there is no money generated or created by farming. Simply the redistribution of wealth to 10% of the game playing population will drive the price of rare objects so as to be astronomically un-reachable by those who do not also fold and do the same thing.

Now imagine there was less farming, and money was more evenly distributed between the members of the population. The price of a precursor would actually be lower I’m guessing, as 1400 G or whatever would be ridiculously impossible.

While there are arguments against this, and farming doesn’t just alter wealth distributions, you can see the reasoning. Essentially if you don’t play the farm game as well, then your just left behind would be the argument of the non-farmer. And I haven’t seen anything in this post yet to concretely argue against this.

Tree.3916:

shion.2084:

This is great news! So you’re telling me that farming isn’t causing inflation, but is lowering prices? Awesome because I’d really like to buy a precursor since I’ve never had one drop (probably because I don’t farm enough).

So since I’ve been playing the enjoyable way to me, fractals, map exploration, a dungeon or two in a session, and saved almost every penny I’ve made for the last 809 days, I’m now closer to buying a precursor? I’ve got 401 gold Which one can I buy?

And when I get really lucky and manage to find a lvl 400 crafting material, can it sell for a lot to get me closer to my goal? Or has the majority of fairly “rare” things I am likely to come across now been devalued, while inflation has increased significantly for things that can’t be farmed?

There is a post on reddit where a guy compares prices (gems, gold and $$) of precursors and found that while the gold cost has been increasing, the actual $$ value is decreasing. ($$ value is if you bought the gold with real money vs. farming)

I have heard that there is a small group of people keeping the price of legendaries and precursors artificially high. So keep that in mind.

Kasima.8143:

I have heard that there is a small group of people keeping the price of legendaries and precursors artificially high. So keep that in mind.

Farmers are needed for every economy both real and in game. Its a part of life I don’t know why people don’t like farmers. Having said that I want to be clear I don’t approve of exploits.

OP misses the fact that these farmers, while creating an increase in supply for certain items, also increase demand for other items. Items they want/need but don’t get by the particular farming spot.

A demand backed by the higher than typical income of raw gold (game currency) brought in by the same farming spot. This compounds inflation for such items.

Oh and as for shifts in the supply and demand curves over the long run, you missed how a change in price causes a change in the supply and demand. Basically, if the supply increase causing a shift to the supply curve resulting in an equilibrium price, this drop will cause an increase in demand. In the long run, price level doesn’t change much at all but what does change is the moving quantity. However, the influx of gold will cause a change in price. This has more to do with the quantity and uneven distribution of wealth amongst the players and its impact on price level than it has anything to do with supply and demand. The supply and demand is for mats involved in gear that is account bound.

In short, the mats have little impact on the game’s GDP but the influx of gold will have a greater impact. Put these two together and the net result is an increase in GDP (inflation). But go ahead and make false assumption on the short term price changes of just the particular mats that drop and mistakenly base the game’s entire economy on just that small inadequate sample.

Edit: Just went back and started reading your second post but had to stop. I stopped when you mentioned RL money being backed by gold. That went way of the dodo a long time ago.

Both the government and central banks have tools they use and policies they follow to regulate the money supply and thus control inflation. Gold hasn’t anything to do with it.

Since I transfered to an EU server 3 months ago almost every balthazar event I witnessed failed. Well, the event itself isn’t that easy but NA got how to do it.
So, I needed the trait for my mesmer, I have done the event a hundred times, I know when it can fail: Right at the start, 1 minute after that, shortly before the end or when the Champion Risen Abomination downs the whole zerg, what has happend quite some times. Today we’ve been quite a lot and the final escort went relatively smoothly, the caravan wasn’t at 1% health in the end like the other 2 times I saw the event succeed. About a third of the people was downed by the Abomination, Balthazar was at 10% health when someone demanded that we stop attacking Balthazar because they would get more loot if also killing the Abomination.
The event fails 95% of the times, I (and others) get a trait for completing it, people who need obsidian shards need it (except for farmers who farmed the silverwastes). I’m not really convinced I like this overwhelming farming mentality – it’s okay if all of you farm but please just learn to not always get your way.

I’d like to put forward a middle-man opinion.

The OP has one good point : to prevent the economy to over-inflate we need to have two groups of players that are actively trading :

• The dungeon clearers (generate cash and buy items)
• The item providers (farmers or regular players selling their accumulated stock to get cash)

The taxes of the TP ensure that the amount of gold in the economy does not grow too fast and thus inflation remains in check.

HOWEVER! It does not mean that farming should not have diminishing returns.

Let me clarify : some farms have a natural diminishing return

• Lemongrass
• iron pig linen farm (nerfed nowadays)
• Any other single item farm

Why is that so ? Because all farmer are competing on a single item. In these farms, the laxs of offer and demand work well. If too many farmers farm too much, either the price of the item they are farming will sink and/or the DR mechanic will kick in after some time, lowering their benefits.

Some other farms (I called them champ bag farms) don’t have such problems. Why ? The items they get are too diversified to really compete on the TP and the DR mechanism does not affect them. It means that the first hour of farming brings roughly the same amount of money as the 8th one or the 100th one.

Why should such thing be impossible ? After all, these farms are making the prices go down, right ? That’s beneficial for everyone, right ?

Well…. NO. See, an economy is much healthier for everyone if the inequalities of wealth are kept low. If such farms are allowed to continue, eventually the no-lives that spend entire days farming the game will concentrate in their hands all the wealth of GW2. And, by lowering the price of most of the tradable items, they also reduce the wealth of casual gamers that have patiently accumulated items that used to be costly before the farm took place.

That is the reason why the DR has been implemented in the game in the first place. To prevent no-lives to concentrate too much wealth. Farming Cursed Shores for an hour bring a bit of money. However the 8th hour you spend here will bring you less than the 1st one.

TL; DR : Farming is beneficial to the game as long as it has diminishing returns. Otherwise, farmer will concentrate in their hands all the wealth of the game, making it extremely frustrating for non-farming people. Recently nerfed farms (coil watch, CS tunnel, amber chests, fireheart ambers etc…) all shared this property of being DR proof and not really subjected to the laws of offer and demand, this is also why they were so successful.

The problem is that the (best) way to get most things / items / rewards is by grinding. So it’s a game (rewarding) design that is bad and where people are complaining about.
And in fact a design of what Anet promoted the game with NOT being this way.

The complains are not the fact that people do grind.

Even in a game that is not so based on grinding (because you can directly work towards most items without a grind to get gold to buy the items) you will still have people who get there items that way. And thats fine.

So it’s not grinding or grinders that people complain about it’s the design of the game where grinding is the best or only really viable way to get most things.

The only other thing I did see people complain about was toxicity with grinders.

Oow and the price drop does not always have to be true, in fact an increase in price is also possible. Because the more those people grind the more money they have and so the prices can eventually even go up while the supply also is going up. As long as there is a demand for it of course. The price will only drop for items with a lower demand but go’s up for items with a higher demand.

That means that for the not grinders it becomes ever harder to get those items.

What might be the idea behind the design as that gives more reason to buy gems to convert to gold.

But again, this has to do how the game and mainly the rewarding system works and has nothing to do with grinders or grinding.

Ayrilana.1396:

Farming something to the point that prices drop to vendor prices isn’t good as people will just sell to vendor and avoid the gold sink. That’s one of the points you made and I do agree with. When I read the rest, it came off as you were saying that all farming was bad as the items had the potential to hit vendor prices if farmed excessively. I was asking for clarification to make sure what your stance was and if this assumption was correct.

How many people actually do vendor items instead of putting them into a gigantic pile on the TP, like the 13’911’063 supply for thick leather? Honestly, it took me some time to realize that some things are better vendored than sold; and IIRC, just until recently you could actually sell at vendor price on TP and lose money on fees.

shion.2084:

Take a look at the halloween model and extrapolate what would happen if that was left up year round. Then understand what farming “also” does in addition to create this helpful supply.

= “Take a look at Christmas and extrapolate what would happen if that was left up year round. People would spend all their money on presents and dinners and entertainment and die from starvation. That is why Christmas is bad.” That’s why this content is seasonal and limited; just like Wintersday, Bazaar of the Four Winds and Crown Pavillion/Gauntlet, it is a controlled farm introduced to make changes to economy – check out this post for some maniacal laughter from John Smith.

tigirius.9014:

I’d much rather reach a goal through currency like marks than buy an item from another player who just happened to be lucky enough to get the lottery ticket.

See this thread.

Djinn.9245:

But not only is it a shame that this beautiful and creative game has become nothing more than numbers on a graph to a lot of people, it is also a shame that those who actually play the game are not rewarded MORE for doing so than those who treat the game as nothing but a system to be “worked”.

Looking at Notre Dame de Paris and saying it’s cool is easy. Learning art, architecture and math to understand why Notre Dame de Paris is cool is hard. But when you’re done learning art and architecture, you don’t actually lose the ability to see that it’s cool.

Deamhan.9538:

OP misses the fact that these farmers, while creating an increase in supply for certain items, also increase demand for other items. Items they want/need but don’t get by the particular farming spot.

A demand backed by the higher than typical income of raw gold (game currency) brought in by the same farming spot. This compounds inflation for such items.

…which comes from exactly where? From those 50 copper mobs occasionally drop? Even if they drop 1 silver, you still have to kill 520 money-dropping mobs per hour to break even with the average CoF p1+p2 and AC p1+p2 which influxes raw 5g20s into the economy – excluding the coins dropped by mobs in the dungeon itself.

Jana.6831:

About a third of the people was downed by the Abomination, Balthazar was at 10% health when someone demanded that we stop attacking Balthazar because they would get more loot if also killing the Abomination.
The event fails 95% of the times, I (and others) get a trait for completing it, people who need obsidian shards need it (except for farmers who farmed the silverwastes). I’m not really convinced I like this overwhelming farming mentality – it’s okay if all of you farm but please just learn to not always get your way.

I have a different experience. It usually takes several days to get a trait in this event, as it is already done (most of the time, so obsi shards are available) or no one is doing it because it’s wrong time of day/wrong instance; when I stumble upon a decent try with enough people, I never see people asking to kill the champ instead of completing this event. It may fail, yes, but not because people farm it, but because people are noobs and don’t know where to focus.

Lishtenbird.2814:

I have a different experience. It usually takes several days to get a trait in this event, as it is already done (most of the time, so obsi shards are available) or no one is doing it because it’s wrong time of day/wrong instance; when I stumble upon a decent try with enough people, I never see people asking to kill the champ instead of completing this event. It may fail, yes, but not because people farm it, but because people are noobs and don’t know where to focus.

Yeah the focus should clearly be Balthazar – but the farmer didn’t get it.
This was an example for a lot of occassions in which some farmer demanded something stupid for a gilded coffer – if you haven’t witnessed it then lucky you. If you aren’t on an EU server then you won’t know how hard it can be to find an open temple of Balthazar or to get the trait.

Devata.6589:

The problem is that the (best) way to get most things / items / rewards is by grinding.

Grinding is the best way to get rewards only because it’s the only one.

I’m not going to expand too much on that topic : it’s common knowledge that devs lock their rewards behind grinding locks on purpose, so that people do not burn content too fast.

A shoddy but necessary tactic for any MMO.

VodCom.6924:

Devata.6589:

The problem is that the (best) way to get most things / items / rewards is by grinding.

Grinding is the best way to get rewards only because it’s the only one.

I’m not going to expand too much on that topic : it’s common knowledge that devs lock their rewards behind grinding locks on purpose, so that people do not burn content too fast.

A shoddy but necessary tactic for any MMO.

No it’s not a necessary tactic. In fact most mmo’s I did play did not use this tactic.

What they usually do is having an RNG drop. An RNG that is a little easier to get but is only behind specific content. You want item X? Kill mob Y in that area over there.

You want that mini? Do that dungeon.

You want that mount, do that raid dungeon.

This way people can work directly towards the items. The RNG means it’s still something you need to repeat doing. But it’s completely different from the grind in GW2. Where many things can drop in many places (or don’t drop at all but you can only buy them for gold.. or cash). So you cant work directly towards them by doing some specific content. The way to get them is doing something else, whatever earns you the fastest gold and then buy it for that gold.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Djinn.9245:

But not only is it a shame that this beautiful and creative game has become nothing more than numbers on a graph to a lot of people, it is also a shame that those who actually play the game are not rewarded MORE for doing so than those who treat the game as nothing but a system to be “worked”.

Looking at Notre Dame de Paris and saying it’s cool is easy. Learning art, architecture and math to understand why Notre Dame de Paris is cool is hard. But when you’re done learning art and architecture, you don’t actually lose the ability to see that it’s cool.

That’s actually not a good analogy. Let’s not pretend that all the people who farm the game are scholars lol.

Its more like the city of Paris hosts a one-day event to encourage people to see all of the city. There is no prize for “doing it the fastest” – just a souvenir at each destination on the list. Instead of touring the city and enjoying the sights some people determine the fastest route between all the destinations and race through grabbing souvenirs (1 per visit) so they can get the most souvenirs in that day.

Perhaps Anet doesn’t mind people using the game in this way and maybe they even expect it. But somehow it just doesn’t seem right that people who just play the game don’t get the same kind of rewards as those who DON’T play the game but instead work the system.

Chris Cleary.8017:

In a player driven economy, the demand of an item surpassing the supply generated by the playerbase will increase the value of it. While there are some items in these bags that are not based around cosmetics (the low drop rate of T6 mats), the price of these bags is directly relative to the cosmetic value that is being placed on them. While currently profitable, that profit is derived directly from other players and their willingness to play a higher price. In essence, this is a transfer of wealth not wealth generation.

As far as this specific spawn of ambients is concerned, it’s defiantly one of the faster ones to farm. As long as the playerbase is willing to pay for that item, and the demand remains higher than the supply, it will be profitable. This is not an exploit, it’s the playerbase saying “thank you for farming this, because we didn’t want to”.

Devata.6589:

VodCom.6924:

Devata.6589:

The problem is that the (best) way to get most things / items / rewards is by grinding.

Grinding is the best way to get rewards only because it’s the only one.

I’m not going to expand too much on that topic : it’s common knowledge that devs lock their rewards behind grinding locks on purpose, so that people do not burn content too fast.

A shoddy but necessary tactic for any MMO.

No it’s not a necessary tactic. In fact most mmo’s I did play did not use this tactic.

What they usually do is having an RNG drop. An RNG that is a little easier to get but is only behind specific content. You want item X? Kill mob Y in that area over there.

You want that mini? Do that dungeon.

You want that mount, do that raid dungeon.

This way people can work directly towards the items. The RNG means it’s still something you need to repeat doing. But it’s completely different from the grind in GW2. Where many things can drop in many places (or don’t drop at all but you can only buy them for gold.. or cash). So you cant work directly towards them by doing some specific content. The way to get them is doing something else, whatever earns you the fastest gold and then buy it for that gold.

It appears there is a misunderstanding between us.

While this wiki article does not have the highest standards of the encyclopedia, let’s take this as a common basis.

What you call grind is “money grind” or “gold war”. What I call grind is the process of engaging in repetitive tasks to have a good chance of getting an item/reward.

RNG (especially low odds of RNG) is no better for me than a gold grind. In the end they both involve doing the same thing all over again.

Tree.3916:

shion.2084:

This is great news! So you’re telling me that farming isn’t causing inflation, but is lowering prices? Awesome because I’d really like to buy a precursor since I’ve never had one drop (probably because I don’t farm enough).

So since I’ve been playing the enjoyable way to me, fractals, map exploration, a dungeon or two in a session, and saved almost every penny I’ve made for the last 809 days, I’m now closer to buying a precursor? I’ve got 401 gold Which one can I buy?

And when I get really lucky and manage to find a lvl 400 crafting material, can it sell for a lot to get me closer to my goal? Or has the majority of fairly “rare” things I am likely to come across now been devalued, while inflation has increased significantly for things that can’t be farmed?

There is a post on reddit where a guy compares prices (gems, gold and $$) of precursors and found that while the gold cost has been increasing, the actual $$ value is decreasing. ($$ value is if you bought the gold with real money vs. farming)

yes you currently get a lot more band for your buck buying gems and converting gold compared to what it was a year ago. It makes it much more enticing to buy gold then grind for it when they nerf every decent way of getting it in game. Plus they have nerfed all the drops so that supply is limited causing prices to go up. It makes that old saying exploit early and often the way to play. If you aren’t jumping in on the great farms that pop up now and then you are going to be grinding for ever to get anything. Just to clarify I’m not saying to exploit, just saying that if the opportunity arises to make a lot of money fast jump on it while you can because those types of things never last.

Economics.