Guild Wars 2

LA GW.6753:

Olvendred.3027:

LA GW.6753:

Perfect example of less choice: Merry Christmas PvE Players, you can today do Fractals or you can do Fractals if you only do PvE for your daily AP. Cos TWO CHOICES FOR PVE TODAY, CHRISTMAS DAY, ARE FRACTALS!

While that is a bit odd, it also means you can get both those dailies for doing only one thing.

And —>Point

-->Your Head

This is a perfect example of restricted choice, the whole reason behind this thread. It’s not a feature. This is ANet trying to force people to do moldy old content many people have no interest in doing to inflate metrics and say ‘see? see? people play all our content!’

I agree with this, There are only 3 PvE dailies today and one of them is fractals. Frankly I take issue with that, even though I personally got my daily in WvW today.

This is wrong. You can’t expect people who PvE to do fractals. You need 3 that are attainable each day without grouping.

Filaha.1678:

Yes, there is no choice in how to get them. That is, however, entirely irrelevant.

Yes, there is only one method to get them, which is by logging in.

Thanks for admitting it, it is relevant, slightly at the very least since it is what the whole post is about “choice”.

Filaha.1678:

It removes a choice that barely even counts as a choice (since, as people like to point out, you would have gotten your dailies and by extension your laurels by just running around doing events and killing things) in order to give you absolute freedom with your playtime and still get your laurels.

True, still does remove a choice.

Filaha.1678:

Yes, it removes the choice of “How do I want to get the laurel?”, but it replaces it with the far superior “Now that my laurels are guaranteed, how do I want to spend my playtime not worrying about it at all?”

The “how do I want to spend my playtime not worrying about it at all?”… I guess that comes at a price of choice. Like you pointed out, doing the dailies beforehand was easy at it is, so that question would have still came up rather quickly.

In a weird way, it might have given some people something to do… <- this is irrelevant though.

The other weird choice removed, is the choice of getting laurels at all. In the old system you can ignore the whole daily system and choose to not be a part of it at all. Here, you’re part of the daily system whether you want it or not. It’s weird, yeah, but another choice has been removed. True, you can choose to throw out the laurel bags or not.

What matters is what this extends to, namely that once you have them, it doesn’t matter what you do with the rest of your playtime. Kill world bosses. Go to WvW. Go to PvP. Do fractals. Play the TP. Go caroling with your guild. Commit genocide on all the ambient bunnies. Throw a tea party with your minis. Run around Lion’s Arch naked and perform a mating dance towards all the Charr you see. Do all of the above. It doesn’t matter, because you already have your laurels.

It removes a choice that barely even counts as a choice (since, as people like to point out, you would have gotten your dailies and by extension your laurels by just running around doing events and killing things) in order to give you absolute freedom with your playtime and still get your laurels.

Yes, it removes the choice of “How do I want to get the laurel?”, but it replaces it with the far superior “Now that my laurels are guaranteed, how do I want to spend my playtime not worrying about it at all?”

The “choice” removed by the new system has nothing to do with laurels. If they want to include laurels with the login rewards then that ’s fine. The choice reduced by the new system is in what activities you do to earn your daily meta.

Zero Day.2594:

The “how do I want to spend my playtime not worrying about it at all?”… I guess that comes at a price of choice.

It doesn’t come at a price of choice, though. You can literally choose to spend your entire play time watching your character’s idle animations, which was an impossible choice if you wanted to get laurels before.

So in actual fact, it didn’t cost you choice at all. It gave you more choices. If you wanted your laurel before, you had to choose to do the dailies, which meant going out and doing stuff. Now you can choose not to do stuff, or to do stuff. If you don’t want the laurel to use, you can choose to destroy the bag or use it and just stockpile them until you have 8008135 laurels.

The other weird choice removed, is the choice of getting laurels at all. In the old system you can ignore the whole daily system and choose to not be a part of it at all. Here, you’re part of the daily system whether you want it or not. It’s weird, yeah, but another choice has been removed. True, you can choose to throw out the laurel bags or not.

Which I choose to file under “Reaching for things to argue about” and ignore it, as should anybody that wants to be taken seriously.

Ohoni.6057:

The “choice” removed by the new system has nothing to do with laurels. If they want to include laurels with the login rewards then that ’s fine. The choice reduced by the new system is in what activities you do to earn your daily meta.

Too bad the point I was arguing was, specifically, about laurels, so what other choices were removed is irrelevant to my particular argument.

That is fine that you are still arguing about laurels, but the topic of this thread is about choices.

Too bad the point I was arguing was, specifically, about laurels, so what other choices were removed is irrelevant to my particular argument.

Then your particular argument isn’t a particularly relevant one.

To your corners, please, for a breather. This isn’t a shouting match, it’s a discussion. I’m totally guilty of letting people get under my skin from time to time, but let’s all try to remember that we’re people here, and that we still have the choice to respond to people who aren’t communicating in a way that is conducive to honest discussion. I sincerely hope that I have done what I can to foster good communication, here.

Could we try to get to the overall picture again? My premise is that we’re looking at a much more restrictive game system in GW2 than we were last year at this time, and it’s quite sad, to me. Thanks so much, folks. I’m not trying to make anyone feel bad, so please accept my apologies if you do. Like I said, I have this issue, myself, and I think it’s a human issue to be so invested in things we have a passion for.

Ohoni.6057:

Too bad the point I was arguing was, specifically, about laurels, so what other choices were removed is irrelevant to my particular argument.

Then your particular argument isn’t a particularly relevant one.

Freedom in choosing how you want to play without worrying about whether or not it will get you laurels, to a person who specifically said:

With me only wanting the laurels

is somehow irrelevant to the discussion of freedom of choice in the game?

No, I would say that having more freedom of choice in one aspect of the game is entirely relevant to the implication that the whole philosophy of the game is shifting to less choice.

You can choose to disagree, but you’d be wrong.

My condolences to those who find that the new system reduces their choices, but I find that it increases mine.

I can now, like today for example, complete my dailies in much less time than was the case in the past, allowing me to spend more of my limited game time on things I want to do while still getting the rewards I desire. Today dailies took just about four minutes.

As to Laurels…from what those opposed to the new system seem to be saying there is almost no functional difference in the acquisition of laurels from the old system for them. They used to get laurels by logging in and doing whatever they wanted. They still do. I said, “almost no,” because the two functional differences are that you can get more of them now than was previously the case and the, “doing whatever they want,” can now include sitting around not actively doing anything at all.

Guhracie.3419:

Could we try to get to the overall picture again? My premise is that we’re looking at a much more restrictive game system in GW2 than we were last year at this time, and it’s quite sad, to me. Thanks so much, folks. I’m not trying to make anyone feel bad, so please accept my apologies if you do. Like I said, I have this issue, myself, and I think it’s a human issue to be so invested in things we have a passion for.

I find I have, when playing my main, a bit less restrictive game in GW2 these days. Mostly because I’ve passed a point where I have many things to get done. I don’t really need AP, or Laurels, or anything which the system was giving me before this last update.

However. I have not experienced playing through a second character due to always feeling like I should be playing my main rather than messing around on alts. This isn’t pressure from the system, per se, more like pressure internally for “you know you could be doing this on your ranger . . . you have so much more fun playing him than this stupid mesmer”.

I also don’t have the drive to rake in Gold/Laurels/AP for the sake of having them. I never really . . . got . . . the point of that in my games. I would do things to get these bragging rights awards and realize I had almost nobody to brag to about them who didn’t also have them.

(Seriously, the only one sitting there is completing the new Pokedex of 700+ and that’s . . . that’s not happening anytime soon.)

So while I’m happy to chase silly achievements like finding the Lost Coins, I’m really not a typical player.

Vayne.8563:

LA GW.6753:

Olvendred.3027:

LA GW.6753:

Perfect example of less choice: Merry Christmas PvE Players, you can today do Fractals or you can do Fractals if you only do PvE for your daily AP. Cos TWO CHOICES FOR PVE TODAY, CHRISTMAS DAY, ARE FRACTALS!

While that is a bit odd, it also means you can get both those dailies for doing only one thing.

And —>Point

-->Your Head

This is a perfect example of restricted choice, the whole reason behind this thread. It’s not a feature. This is ANet trying to force people to do moldy old content many people have no interest in doing to inflate metrics and say ‘see? see? people play all our content!’

I agree with this, There are only 3 PvE dailies today and one of them is fractals. Frankly I take issue with that, even though I personally got my daily in WvW today.

This is wrong. You can’t expect people who PvE to do fractals. You need 3 that are attainable each day without grouping.

In a way, I think this is the point of the new dailies. It’s a way to get people to branch out and do stuff they normally wouldn’t do. People that solely play open world pvp are now more inclined to try out WvW, SPvP and/or dungeons.

Vayne.8563:

LA GW.6753:

Olvendred.3027:

LA GW.6753:

Perfect example of less choice: Merry Christmas PvE Players, you can today do Fractals or you can do Fractals if you only do PvE for your daily AP. Cos TWO CHOICES FOR PVE TODAY, CHRISTMAS DAY, ARE FRACTALS!

While that is a bit odd, it also means you can get both those dailies for doing only one thing.

And —>Point

-->Your Head

This is a perfect example of restricted choice, the whole reason behind this thread. It’s not a feature. This is ANet trying to force people to do moldy old content many people have no interest in doing to inflate metrics and say ‘see? see? people play all our content!’

I agree with this, There are only 3 PvE dailies today and one of them is fractals. Frankly I take issue with that, even though I personally got my daily in WvW today.

This is wrong. You can’t expect people who PvE to do fractals. You need 3 that are attainable each day without grouping.

I agree with Vayne on this one, though I had 4 PvE choices with 2 choices involving fractals. The others were Maguma Miner and Brisban events. I cannot remember a time when I felt I had to group to get the old dailies completed. If there were group-oriented tasks under the old system, there were enough non-group related ones that the group ones would be for the extra AP, not the whole ball of wax. FWIW, I also completed my dailies in WvW today.

I can now, like today for example, complete my dailies in much less time than was the case in the past, allowing me to spend more of my limited game time on things I want to do while still getting the rewards I desire. Today dailies took just about four minutes.

Well, that’s lucky for you, but for me I find that it takes me about 2-3 times longer dedicated to completing dailies than before the change, leaving me considerably less time to do anything more interesting. I spent almost an hour in Fields of Ruin the other day just trying to find four active events.

Wouldn’t it be nicer if they just had a wider variety of options, so that you could complete yours in four minutes doing whatever it is you do now, while I would also be able to complete it in four minutes?

In a way, I think this is the point of the new dailies. It’s a way to get people to branch out and do stuff they normally wouldn’t do. People that solely play open world pvp are now more inclined to try out WvW, SPvP and/or dungeons.

But they also need to respect our choices when we know full well that we do not like green eggs and ham, for serious, no moral to that story, we just don’t like it. I’ve tried WvW, I’ve tried sPvP, I’ve tried Fractals, I know for a fact that I do not enjoy any of these activities and multiple attempts at it won’t make me enjoy it any more. I’ve tried them all, and not I’m asking the game to never give me any more reasons to dabble in them ever again.

“Branch out” mechanisms should be one time things, mechanisms to get you to attempt something at least once, and then respecting your reaction to it. “Branch out” mechanisms should not be something that occur on a daily basis, forcing you to constantly adapt your playstyle and play the game how they want you to play it, rather than respecting you as a customer to play the game how you most enjoy it.

I agree with Vayne on this one, though I had 4 PvE choices with 2 choices involving fractals. The others were Maguma Miner and Brisban events. I cannot remember a time when I felt I had to group to get the old dailies completed. If there were group-oriented tasks under the old system, there were enough non-group related ones that the group ones would be for the extra AP, not the whole ball of wax. FWIW, I also completed my dailies in WvW today.

It used to only be one Fractal or dungeon option, out of six PvE ones. If you didn’t do those, then worst case scenario you might need to do all the other ones, and they were all super-casual stuff, so no problem. Now it’s possible half the available options, and the other ones are typically super-specific, requiring to go to zones you might have no business whatsoever in, or build your entire play schedule around the timing of one specific world boss that doesn’t actually interest you.

They need to open these things up, so that you can fight the world boss you want, farm the resources in the zone you want, run the events in the zone you want, etc.

Ohoni.6057:

I can now, like today for example, complete my dailies in much less time than was the case in the past, allowing me to spend more of my limited game time on things I want to do while still getting the rewards I desire. Today dailies took just about four minutes.

Well, that’s lucky for you

No. No luck involved. Just choices. I chose the quick and easy options in order to complete the three minimum dailies as fast as possible. I’m sure that, if I so chose, I could have spent an hour or more on dailies as well. Its not as if anyone is forcing me to do dailies at all, theyve even removed most of the rewards.

Guhracie.3419:

Could we try to get to the overall picture again? My premise is that we’re looking at a much more restrictive game system in GW2 than we were last year at this time,

Here’s the problem:

There’s only one thing that I can agree with, off the top of my head, that is objectively significantly restrictive, and that’s the traits, which I have complained about before.

The daily system is not objectively restrictive. If one does not care about APs or has already hit the cap, any restrictions are moot. If one only cared about laurels or the other rewards from dailies, those come from the login rewards, so any restrictions through dailies are moot. If one plays only PvP or WvW, they weren’t going to get 10 AP per day previously, whereas now they can, so there are less restrictions.

There’s only one type of person who is restricted by the new daily system, and that’s the stubborn person who thinks they should get rewards for not going out of their way at all just because that’s how it worked before . It’s hard for me to feel sorry for those people, though, when they act like the world is ending because they might have to dip into WvW for a few seconds. Pro-tip, people: Nobody guards sentries, and dolyaks are easy to kill without a group. Land Claimer, Master of Ruins, and Caravan Disruptor are incredibly easy and fast, even if you only PvE, as long as you can kill a single veteran (and dolyaks aren’t even that). You probably won’t even SEE an enemy player unless you’re up against a server who camps sentries for some reason. Master of Ruins doesn’t even involve a single kill, just going to a specific location on your map and standing there for a minute.

It’d be like a WvW player complaining that they can’t do their WvW dailies so they have to go check out a vista in the Shiverpeaks.

Knowing how easy the dailies in WvW frequently are, it’s really, REALLY hard for me to take the complaints seriously.

I completely agree with the OP.

And regarding Dailies, I find it interesting that even though it seemed the point was to have less Dailies to do, there are actually more Dailies listed now since they added so many more WvW, PvP, etc. And as a PvE person I hate that I am very limited in my Daily choices.

I think when you take an extremely vague topic like “choice” you should really specify choice with regards to what overall aspect of the game.

There are objectively more things to do in the game today then there were a year ago.

There are objectively more items to customize your character today than there were a year ago.

There are objectively more ways to make gold today than there were a year ago.

There are objectively more ways to earn ap today than a year ago.

Then there are some things that have been changed which have been poorly implemented, even though the concepts themselves are solid. The biggest offender of this is the trait acquisition system. Questing for traits is great, but the quests should have been more relevant to the trait both in terms of activity and level.

Then there are people who have no common sense at all and see loss of choice even when there is more choice, like with the case of laurels. Resting through that argument made my head hurt. Previously, you log in, do five dailies and get your laurel. Today, log in, get you laurel, and do whatever you went. How the heck do you see that as less choice. I have no idea.

Even with the case of dailies, considering the laurel has been separated from them and the number you have to complete has been reduced to three while the choices remain at twelve, that’s objectively more choice, even if those choice aren’t necessarily ones you like.

Where is there objectively less choice?

@Filaha

Well, at least by your 2nd last response to me, you seemed to have understood what yolo was talking about. Not only that but you also did admit that what he was saying is true.

O.o So, my little step-in is done.

Whether you choose to reject or belittle other people’s points based on how you yourself value or (mis)understand them, is completely up to you!

Cheerio!

It’d be like a WvW player complaining that they can’t do their WvW dailies so they have to go check out a vista in the Shiverpeaks.

Knowing how easy the dailies in WvW frequently are, it’s really, REALLY hard for me to take the complaints seriously.

If the WvW achievements are so pointlessly effortless, then why not just remove them completely and just award the points from them by default? The fact remains that I do not want to have to do them, and resent that the game requires it to clear the dailies in a reasonable amount of time, and there is no argument that could convince me otherwise.

Ohoni.6057:

It’d be like a WvW player complaining that they can’t do their WvW dailies so they have to go check out a vista in the Shiverpeaks.

Knowing how easy the dailies in WvW frequently are, it’s really, REALLY hard for me to take the complaints seriously.

If the WvW achievements are so pointlessly effortless, then why not just remove them completely and just award the points from them by default? The fact remains that I do not want to have to do them, and resent that the game requires it to clear the dailies in a reasonable amount of time, and there is no argument that could convince me otherwise.

So don’t do the dailies. Seriously. Exercise your choice not to do them.

Subdue.5479:

Ohoni.6057:

It’d be like a WvW player complaining that they can’t do their WvW dailies so they have to go check out a vista in the Shiverpeaks.

Knowing how easy the dailies in WvW frequently are, it’s really, REALLY hard for me to take the complaints seriously.

If the WvW achievements are so pointlessly effortless, then why not just remove them completely and just award the points from them by default? The fact remains that I do not want to have to do them, and resent that the game requires it to clear the dailies in a reasonable amount of time, and there is no argument that could convince me otherwise.

So don’t do the dailies. Seriously. Exercise your choice not to do them.

Exactly. Not every bit of content will appeal to every player.

The only rewards offered by dailies can be earned almost anywhere in the game even if you opt to completely ignore the dailies.

So don’t do the dailies. Seriously. Exercise your choice not to do them.

My choice is to want to do them, I just want them to be better.

Subdue.5479:

Hamfast.8719:

Psientist.6437:

Obviously, you will counter that there are fewer PvE-centric options and you would be correct.

In his original post, Guhracie stated in no uncertain terms that he was speaking primarily with regards to PvE, his play mode of choice. So yes, there are absolutely, positively, without any question far fewer choices of PvE achievements to do. But after 4+ pages it perhaps doesn’t get specified in every post anymore. The OPs original issue is that we have less choice in PvE achievements now, which is unquestionably true.

Psientist.6437:

However, the stated purpose of the new daily system is to get players to explore new game modes.

After two years, most players have already explored other game modes. (Gotta do something to keep things fresh). We’ve explored many niches and we already know the things we like to do. This whole thing reeks of “New Player Experience” again, if you ask me; trying to tell newbies where to go and what to do at the expense of the veteran players.
______________________________

But back to PvE choices. I have always thought it unfair that PvPers and WvWers had fewer selections aimed specifically at their area of interest. It’s great that they’ve evened out the score in that respect, but as many people have pointed out the choices are still very limiting (play a specific Profession, etc.)

Yes, many of the Dailies are ridiculously (even stupidly) easy, and PvEers could go do non-PvE things to finish them. But this is a game, not a job. We play to have fun, not be told what to do by someone else. We need more freedom of choice in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Many players only want to play one of those three modes, and 4 options is not very many in that light.

Give us more options, and give us “meatier” options. No more “view a Vista in Queensdale”. That’s not an achievement. That’s “kill 10 rats”.

The problem with this point of view is the assumption that PVE players are somehow forced to do WvW or PvP content. They’re not. In fact, quite the opposite. With the bulk of rewards pulled from dailies and placed in the logins, more and more dailies are an optional endeavor. It’s no different from not being able to wear Arah armor because you don’t want to do the Arah dungeon, or not getting the 10 achievement points for a jumping puzzle because you don’t want to do the jumping puzzle.

As the person you quoted stated, and you conveniently ignored, the point of the daily revamp is to encourage people to explore other game features. Encourage, not force.

I’m sorry… where did I say “force”? I believe I said “options” and “choice”, but I don’t see the word “force” anywhere. As you stated in your first sentence, you are apparently making an assumption. And everyone knows what happens when you assume.

(Sorry for the delayed response. Been out of town for the holidays).

Subdue.5479:

snipped for space…

Then there are some things that have been changed which have been poorly implemented, even though the concepts themselves are solid. The biggest offender of this is the trait acquisition system. Questing for traits is great, but the quests should have been more relevant to the trait both in terms of activity and level.

Even with the case of dailies, considering the laurel has been separated from them and the number you have to complete has been reduced to three while the choices remain at twelve, that’s objectively more choice, even if those choice aren’t necessarily ones you like.

Hi, thank you for this response, as it seems to be both in keeping with the topic and in good faith. I must say that I feel like I did specify, in my original post, a lot of the areas in which I feel choices are becoming a thing of the past. I’m going to address your points in order.

Overall, more things to do in the game than there were a year ago at this time: I can kind of see that, since the new living story zones have been added. However, last year at this time, we still had the Tower of Nightmares update running, we all got the new heal skills, and the event wasn’t gated behind level 80.

I can’t fault Anet too much for the level gate on the living world. It had to be a balance, in order to make it repeatable- and an overwhelming number of people wanted to be able to replay the story. And I’ve heard rave reviews about the new zones, overall.

However, last year’s meta achievement had many more ways to complete it than the current one does.

Objectively, you can replay S2 to your heart’s content, and that counts for a lot of new stuff. Okay, there’s more stuff to do than there was last time at this year, objectively. There’s no objective way to measure quality, and I’m not qualified to speak about the quality of the new zones, anyway.

I’m not sure I agree that there are more ways to earn gold, nor that they’re more effective than methods we previously had access to. I’d be happy to discuss if you’d like to elaborate on this.

I do not believe that there are more items to customize your character with than there were a year ago. We lost a lot of options when town clothes were turned into potions or outfits. We might be breaking even, if you’re counting the outfits as customized items, but there are many arguments that customization of characters was damaged heavily in the last year.

Your argument about laurels is flawed. Previously, you’d log in, do your dailies and get a laurel. Now they don’t come every day, and not everyone is using them for big purchases, like ascended accessories. Some people use them for crafting materials, so waiting until you can log in on 7 different days to obtain 2 laurels actually does slow down that progression. It’s not a real problem for me, but that doesn’t mean I can’t see how it is a problem for other people. I can see how they might prefer the old system, even at the cost of 10 or so laurels.

Assuming a person was getting every monthly by logging in 3 days a month and powering through the monthly, that’s 156 laurels. In this system, they’d get 66 laurels for the same login rate. That’s not reaching for reasons to complain, it’s a significant loss for the exact same time investment a year ago. They’d have to spend a week out of every month instead of 3 days to get a comparable amount (165), which more than doubles the amount of days to log in.

The time commitment (specifically for the laurel reward) is less in this option, so maybe some of those people simply will log in for 20 seconds each day, for a week out of every month, but work schedules and such could interfere with that. And, it’s also less incentive to spend time in the game. That seems counter-productive to me.

Okay, look. This last paragraph of yours makes me feel like maybe you didn’t post this in good faith, and that’s disappointing. I’ve explained it. Other people have explained it. You’re choosing to ignore those explanations, so I’m simply not going to respond. But unforeseen issue or not, the daily we just had is an example of why it’s a bad idea to shuffle such specific dailies together. 2 of the 4 were fractals. And next time, in theory, we could have “daily fractal,” “daily fractal 1-10,” and “daily fractal 11-29” as our “choice.” Add Aetherpath as option number 4, and watch the forum burn. It’s such a narrow scope. If you really don’t see how that limits options, I don’t think the issue is with my communication skills.

Okay, this is long enough already. I’ve listed a number of places/systems in the game that were added this year that support my premise of less choice, and I don’t feel that your counterpoints cancel those out.

With regards to earning gold, I was referring to the changes to dungeon rewards and
World boss rewards, and the addition of areas like sw. I may be fuzzy on the time though, and some of those changes may be more than a year old.

With regards to customizing your character I was referring to bring able to use outfits in combat, but as stuff had been taken or as well, you may be either.

As for laurels, there are points at which you will have more laurels than you otherwise would at that point. At worst I’d call that a draw, though overall you get more laurels.

As for the dailies, yes I’ve read the arguments. Let me ask you this. I’d there were 12 choices for pve dailies but they were all difficult and or time consuming, but entirely available without venturing into pvp or wvw, would that satisfy your desire for choices?

Subdue.5479:

If there were 12 choices for pve dailies but they were all difficult and or time consuming, but entirely available without venturing into pvp or wvw, would that satisfy your desire for choices?

A choice of 6 PvE (and PvP as well as WvW) would probably be sufficient. As pointed out, 50% of today’s PvE choices included Fractals achievements. Not a lot of variety to choose from there.) I’m not sure where you’re getting that they have to be extra difficult or time consuming, but I would prefer choices on par with the old ones and not any super-simple new junk they’re giving us like viewing a vista or chopping 10 trees in a specific zone.

Hamfast.8719:

Subdue.5479:

If there were 12 choices for pve dailies but they were all difficult and or time consuming, but entirely available without venturing into pvp or wvw, would that satisfy your desire for choices?

A choice of 6 PvE (and PvP as well as WvW) would probably be sufficient. As pointed out, 50% of today’s PvE choices included Fractals achievements. Not a lot of variety to choose from there.) I’m not sure where you’re getting that they have to be extra difficult or time consuming, but I would prefer choices on par with the old ones and not any super-simple new junk they’re giving us like viewing a vista or chopping 10 trees in a specific zone.

This. I simply do not understand why there was a need to remove so many choices. Not from a game design perspective, and not from a coding perspective. Certainly not to reduce it to choose 3 out of an available 4. It doesn’t make any sense to me. And there’s no reason why the choices need to be arduous. I don’t understand this sudden desire to penalize choices that were previously available. Why?

Guhracie.3419:

Hamfast.8719:

Subdue.5479:

If there were 12 choices for pve dailies but they were all difficult and or time consuming, but entirely available without venturing into pvp or wvw, would that satisfy your desire for choices?

A choice of 6 PvE (and PvP as well as WvW) would probably be sufficient. As pointed out, 50% of today’s PvE choices included Fractals achievements. Not a lot of variety to choose from there.) I’m not sure where you’re getting that they have to be extra difficult or time consuming, but I would prefer choices on par with the old ones and not any super-simple new junk they’re giving us like viewing a vista or chopping 10 trees in a specific zone.

This. I simply do not understand why there was a need to remove so many choices. Not from a game design perspective, and not from a coding perspective. Certainly not to reduce it to choose 3 out of an available 4. It doesn’t make any sense to me. And there’s no reason why the choices need to be arduous. I don’t understand this sudden desire to penalize choices that were previously available. Why?

It’s pretty obvious that the goal of the revamped dailies is to encourage people to explore other game modes. That’s why each game mode tends to have two easy dailies and two difficult/time consuming ones. You can easily complete them by hopping around game modes, but if you absolutely are unwilling to do that, you’ve got two more difficult options to choose from.

If they were to leave the old, easy options, people would just default to those and the whole point of the revamp would be lost.

Subdue.5479:

Guhracie.3419:

Hamfast.8719:

Subdue.5479:

If there were 12 choices for pve dailies but they were all difficult and or time consuming, but entirely available without venturing into pvp or wvw, would that satisfy your desire for choices?

A choice of 6 PvE (and PvP as well as WvW) would probably be sufficient. As pointed out, 50% of today’s PvE choices included Fractals achievements. Not a lot of variety to choose from there.) I’m not sure where you’re getting that they have to be extra difficult or time consuming, but I would prefer choices on par with the old ones and not any super-simple new junk they’re giving us like viewing a vista or chopping 10 trees in a specific zone.

This. I simply do not understand why there was a need to remove so many choices. Not from a game design perspective, and not from a coding perspective. Certainly not to reduce it to choose 3 out of an available 4. It doesn’t make any sense to me. And there’s no reason why the choices need to be arduous. I don’t understand this sudden desire to penalize choices that were previously available. Why?

It’s pretty obvious that the goal of the revamped dailies is to encourage people to explore other game modes. That’s why each game mode tends to have two easy dailies and two difficult/time consuming ones. You can easily complete them by hopping around game modes, but if you absolutely are unwilling to do that, you’ve got two more difficult options to choose from.

If they were to leave the old, easy options, people would just default to those and the whole point of the revamp would be lost.

So the point of the change is to diminish choice of preferred game mode? That is exactly what this thread is about. I don’t see how that can possibly be a good change, but you clearly disagree and appreciate the narrower structure.

Guhracie.3419:

Subdue.5479:

Guhracie.3419:

Hamfast.8719:

Subdue.5479:

If there were 12 choices for pve dailies but they were all difficult and or time consuming, but entirely available without venturing into pvp or wvw, would that satisfy your desire for choices?

A choice of 6 PvE (and PvP as well as WvW) would probably be sufficient. As pointed out, 50% of today’s PvE choices included Fractals achievements. Not a lot of variety to choose from there.) I’m not sure where you’re getting that they have to be extra difficult or time consuming, but I would prefer choices on par with the old ones and not any super-simple new junk they’re giving us like viewing a vista or chopping 10 trees in a specific zone.

This. I simply do not understand why there was a need to remove so many choices. Not from a game design perspective, and not from a coding perspective. Certainly not to reduce it to choose 3 out of an available 4. It doesn’t make any sense to me. And there’s no reason why the choices need to be arduous. I don’t understand this sudden desire to penalize choices that were previously available. Why?

It’s pretty obvious that the goal of the revamped dailies is to encourage people to explore other game modes. That’s why each game mode tends to have two easy dailies and two difficult/time consuming ones. You can easily complete them by hopping around game modes, but if you absolutely are unwilling to do that, you’ve got two more difficult options to choose from.

If they were to leave the old, easy options, people would just default to those and the whole point of the revamp would be lost.

So the point of the change is to diminish choice of preferred game mode? That is exactly what this thread is about. I don’t see how that can possibly be a good change, but you clearly disagree and appreciate the narrower structure.

You know he answered your “why” question, rather then siding which he likes or dislikes.
Aside from what he said, another reason why is this:
There was a group of people that wanted to have something to do in all zones or zones that would otherwise be left empty… I think that’s their way of giving something to do in those zones…
All this though is irrelevant to this post’s discussion (about choice…).

I agree completely. Every update restricts us more. I haven’t logged into the game in 3 weeks and have no desire to at this time, because my sense of freedom and playing the way I want is gone. The game is almost completely lost to me. Such a shame…

Some one also mentioned that Anet is trying to force the different game modes on to us. I’ve also noticed this, especially with PvP. Seems like I cant get away from Anet shoving PvP down my throat. There seems to be an overwhelming emphasis on their PvP lately. Just let the PvPers do their thing, and leave me alone already.

Guhracie.3419:

Subdue.5479:

Guhracie.3419:

Hamfast.8719:

Subdue.5479:

If there were 12 choices for pve dailies but they were all difficult and or time consuming, but entirely available without venturing into pvp or wvw, would that satisfy your desire for choices?

A choice of 6 PvE (and PvP as well as WvW) would probably be sufficient. As pointed out, 50% of today’s PvE choices included Fractals achievements. Not a lot of variety to choose from there.) I’m not sure where you’re getting that they have to be extra difficult or time consuming, but I would prefer choices on par with the old ones and not any super-simple new junk they’re giving us like viewing a vista or chopping 10 trees in a specific zone.

This. I simply do not understand why there was a need to remove so many choices. Not from a game design perspective, and not from a coding perspective. Certainly not to reduce it to choose 3 out of an available 4. It doesn’t make any sense to me. And there’s no reason why the choices need to be arduous. I don’t understand this sudden desire to penalize choices that were previously available. Why?

It’s pretty obvious that the goal of the revamped dailies is to encourage people to explore other game modes. That’s why each game mode tends to have two easy dailies and two difficult/time consuming ones. You can easily complete them by hopping around game modes, but if you absolutely are unwilling to do that, you’ve got two more difficult options to choose from.

If they were to leave the old, easy options, people would just default to those and the whole point of the revamp would be lost.

So the point of the change is to diminish choice of preferred game mode? That is exactly what this thread is about. I don’t see how that can possibly be a good change, but you clearly disagree and appreciate the narrower structure.

No… Your choice isn’t diminished. There is literally nothing at all you could do before the change that you can’t do now. Nothing at all. What has changed is the reward for doing various activities. You can still kill ambients to your heart’s content, and have long, emotional conversions with the laurel vendor. Please keep dodging enemies, applying conditions, and removing them from yourself. You can still do all of these things. However if you choose to do the content that’s being encouraged, you get a small additional reward in the form of ap.

Ap is not unique to dailies, and pve is not somehow deficient in available ap. In fact it is quite the opposite. The bulk of accessible ap is in pve, both in the form of permanent achievements, living story achievements, and even the holiday events. You are not locked out of some otherwise unattainable resource should you choose not to do the dailies.

Third Eye.6718:

Filaha.1678:

There’s only one type of person who is restricted by the new daily system, and that’s the stubborn person who thinks they should get rewards for not going out of their way at all just because that’s how it worked before . It’s hard for me to feel sorry for those people, though, when they act like the world is ending because they might have to dip into WvW for a few seconds.

Subdue.5479:

Then there are people who have no common sense at all and see loss of choice even when there is more choice, like with the case of laurels. Resting through that argument made my head hurt. Previously, you log in, do five dailies and get your laurel. Today, log in, get you laurel, and do whatever you went. How the heck do you see that as less choice. I have no idea.

Seriously, you guys need to be a little more mindful of what you put out there because at times it’s just plain rude, not to mention hypocritical and contradictory. You talk about others being stubborn and having no common sense and yet display the same qualities…

Maybe it’s time to take a chill pill and work out why it’s so important to try and prove others wrong? ; )

Please go back through the thread and warn everybody else who’s been rude to not be rude. Please do not be rude yourself by centering your attacks against people who are only on one side of the argument.

Thank you.

Also, it would be hypocritical if I had said being stubborn was inherently bad. I didn’t. I used it as an adjective, not an insult. Please don’t accuse me of things I haven’t done.

Thank you.

Filaha.1678:

Third Eye.6718:

Filaha.1678:

There’s only one type of person who is restricted by the new daily system, and that’s the stubborn person who thinks they should get rewards for not going out of their way at all just because that’s how it worked before . It’s hard for me to feel sorry for those people, though, when they act like the world is ending because they might have to dip into WvW for a few seconds.

Subdue.5479:

Then there are people who have no common sense at all and see loss of choice even when there is more choice, like with the case of laurels. Resting through that argument made my head hurt. Previously, you log in, do five dailies and get your laurel. Today, log in, get you laurel, and do whatever you went. How the heck do you see that as less choice. I have no idea.

Seriously, you guys need to be a little more mindful of what you put out there because at times it’s just plain rude, not to mention hypocritical and contradictory. You talk about others being stubborn and having no common sense and yet display the same qualities…

Maybe it’s time to take a chill pill and work out why it’s so important to try and prove others wrong? ; )

Please go back through the thread and warn everybody else who’s been rude to not be rude. Please do not be rude yourself by centering your attacks against people who are only on one side of the argument.

Thank you.

Also, it would be hypocritical if I had said being stubborn was inherently bad. I didn’t. I used it as an adjective, not an insult. Please don’t accuse me of things I haven’t done.

Thank you.

Just something I’d like to throw in here as food for thought. You’re all complaining about some perceived loss of choice, when really, for the longest time PvE has been BY FAR the fastest and most efficient source of pretty much every available resource in this game aside from WvW badges and PvP rank points. It is so far above and beyond the other two that if you want to make a legendary, or even just amass some gold to buy an expensive (100g+) skin, you typically go to PvE content to grind it out. And as I mentioned before, PvE is already by far the biggest source of AP too. If PvE rewards were taken down a peg or two so that it was more in line with the rewards in the other two modes, wouldn’t that be making room for more choice, as you aren’t pigeonholed into having to go into PvE to unlock content that you want?

Subdue.5479:

Just something I’d like to throw in here as food for thought. You’re all complaining about some perceived loss of choice, when really, for the longest time PvE has been BY FAR the fastest and most efficient source of pretty much every available resource in this game aside from WvW badges and PvP rank points. It is so far above and beyond the other two that if you want to make a legendary, or even just amass some gold to buy an expensive (100g+) skin, you typically go to PvE content to grind it out. And as I mentioned before, PvE is already by far the biggest source of AP too. If PvE rewards were taken down a peg or two so that it was more in line with the rewards in the other two modes, wouldn’t that be making room for more choice, as you aren’t pigeonholed into having to go into PvE to unlock content that you want?

You seem to have missed my whole premise, which is that I’m all for choice for other game modes, but the reasoning that it has to be at the expense of choice in PvE is nonsensical.

Guhracie.3419:

Subdue.5479:

Just something I’d like to throw in here as food for thought. You’re all complaining about some perceived loss of choice, when really, for the longest time PvE has been BY FAR the fastest and most efficient source of pretty much every available resource in this game aside from WvW badges and PvP rank points. It is so far above and beyond the other two that if you want to make a legendary, or even just amass some gold to buy an expensive (100g+) skin, you typically go to PvE content to grind it out. And as I mentioned before, PvE is already by far the biggest source of AP too. If PvE rewards were taken down a peg or two so that it was more in line with the rewards in the other two modes, wouldn’t that be making room for more choice, as you aren’t pigeonholed into having to go into PvE to unlock content that you want?

You seem to have missed my whole premise, which is that I’m all for choice for other game modes, but the reasoning that it has to be at the expense of choice in PvE is nonsensical.

Actually it’s not. Ultimately pricing is based on the availability of gold. If gold can be gained at a much higher rate in one game mode (PVE) than in other game modes, that game mode sets the value for items. Therefore, in order to create equilibrium and keep prices fair for other game modes, PvE needs to be brought down to the level of PvP and WvW in terms of rewards.

It’s the same for AP really. If AP is easier to gain in PvE then the breakpoints for AP rewards have to be based on that, which means other game modes must suffer.

There are two people that seem to be trying to derail the thread by trying to switch it to how fast people acquire resources and now legendaries (btw the root of that evil is precursors…)…

This thread is devolving down to misunderstandings and sophistry. It’s really too bad that proving someone wrong on the internet trumps inferring from context and common sense. Or is it that people are afraid that ANet will take away the new shiny and bring back the old shiny and will seize any tangent to “prove” their point.

Zero Day.2594:

There are two people that seem to be trying to derail the thread by trying to switch it to how fast people acquire resources and now legendaries (btw the root of that evil is precursors…)…

That’s not true. While precursor prices have risen, that’s more a response to an increase in the availability of gold. It’s not like there are fewer precursors dropping now than a year ago.

The whole premise of this thread is that there are options being taken away from PvE players, when the only reward for dailies is AP, something that is abundant in PvE relative to the other game modes. I think the availability of the singular reward which is apparently forcing PvE players to grind painful events or travel begrudgingly outside their comfort zones is extremely relevant to a conversation about PvE players having choices in what content they want to do.

Subdue.5479:

The whole premise of this thread is that there are options being taken away from PvE players, when the only reward for dailies is AP, something that is abundant in PvE relative to the other game modes. I think the availability of the singular reward which is apparently forcing PvE players to grind painful events or travel begrudgingly outside their comfort zones is extremely relevant to a conversation about PvE players having choices in what content they want to do.

Yeah, you got the premise right, up until the first comma.
You should be able to get past most people like that though and back to taking that train off the tracks… (by train I mean the thread topic)

Zero Day.2594:

Subdue.5479:

The whole premise of this thread is that there are options being taken away from PvE players, when the only reward for dailies is AP, something that is abundant in PvE relative to the other game modes. I think the availability of the singular reward which is apparently forcing PvE players to grind painful events or travel begrudgingly outside their comfort zones is extremely relevant to a conversation about PvE players having choices in what content they want to do.

Yeah, you got the premise right, up until the first comma.
You should be able to get past most people like that though and back to taking that train off the tracks… (by train I mean the thread topic)

You can pretend it’s irrelevant if you like, but the only issue that’s on the table here is the reward system, as there are no activities that could be done pre-change that can’t be done now. It’s literally just the rewards that are different. Therefore any conversation about choice and rewards has to take in an inclusive view.

It’s cute that you keep saying I’m wrong without actually giving a reason. Really cute.

Subdue.5479:

Zero Day.2594:

Subdue.5479:

The whole premise of this thread is that there are options being taken away from PvE players, when the only reward for dailies is AP, something that is abundant in PvE relative to the other game modes. I think the availability of the singular reward which is apparently forcing PvE players to grind painful events or travel begrudgingly outside their comfort zones is extremely relevant to a conversation about PvE players having choices in what content they want to do.

Yeah, you got the premise right, up until the first comma.
You should be able to get past most people like that though and back to taking that train off the tracks… (by train I mean the thread topic)

You can pretend it’s irrelevant if you like, but the only issue that’s on the table here is the reward system, as there are no activities that could be done pre-change that can’t be done now. It’s literally just the rewards that are different. Therefore any conversation about choice and rewards has to take in an inclusive view.

It’s cute that you keep saying I’m wrong without actually giving a reason. Really cute.

Not too sure how I’m saying you’re wrong…
You are right, up to a certain point, and then after that point you’re trying to lead in another direction which probably stems from some own personal problem. Just because you’re attempting to take it another direction doesn’t mean it’s wrong, it’s just in another direction, and because it’s another direction it is irrelevant… And so it’s derailing the thread…

It’s cute you’re calling me cute. I think we may have something going between us here.

Subdue.5479:

You can pretend it’s irrelevant if you like, but the only issue that’s on the table here is the reward system, as there are no activities that could be done pre-change that can’t be done now. It’s literally just the rewards that are different. Therefore any conversation about choice and rewards has to take in an inclusive view.

It’s cute that you keep saying I’m wrong without actually giving a reason. Really cute.

Actually the issue is how we go about getting the rewards, not the rewards themselves. As far as I can tell, nobody on this forum has complained about the new collection of rewards because they are excellent compared to the old ones.

What gets to people is that now to get those rewards they have to basically stop what they were doing to get them. And this makes them feel like anet is trying to get them to jump through hoops, lest they are given fewer (if any) rewards at all.

The ‘perceived’ lack of choice was more apparent in yesterday’s daily. Two out of the four PvE dailies were for Fractals. If you don’t Fractal (or PvP or WvW) then you’re screwed. No daily for you.

People should simply stop responding to unreasonable people.

I will only do dailies if I like them, this won’t force me to do things I don’t like. If I feel that I’m not earning Achievement Points at a reasonable rate, maybe I’ll just quit the game. No, not only because of achievement points, but because this is yet another nail in the “play the way you want” coffin.

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

The ‘perceived’ lack of choice was more apparent in yesterday’s daily. Two out of the four PvE dailies were for Fractals. If you don’t Fractal (or PvP or WvW) then you’re screwed. No daily for you.

This is the problem I have with this argument and my problem with the argument hasn’t changed.

The reward you’re not getting that you would have got before is achievement points on which there is a cap.

That is to say, if you keep doing only the days you want, you’ll end up with the same achievement points eventually. Even if you skip a day, it’s unlikely in the old system, you’d have gotten ten points in a day. So it would probably cover two days worth. You can afford to skip every other day in the new system to be rewarded more than you were in the old system.

Most of the problem here is a matter of perception.

Vayne.8563:

This is the problem I have with this argument and my problem with the argument hasn’t changed.

The reward you’re not getting that you would have got before is achievement points on which there is a cap.

That is to say, if you keep doing only the days you want, you’ll end up with the same achievement points eventually. Even if you skip a day, it’s unlikely in the old system, you’d have gotten ten points in a day. So it would probably cover two days worth. You can afford to skip every other day in the new system to be rewarded more than you were in the old system.

Most of the problem here is a matter of perception.

I’ll agree with the last sentence, though not necessarily with the rest of your thoughts.

The only players who’d even have the cap on their radar are those chasing the top of the leader boards. What’s more likely is that players who don’t give a fig about the boards do care about their next reward chest.

I’d think most people would be happy to have the higher rate. You make a fair point about absolute gain versus the old system (i.e., you can afford to miss a day and get the same number of AP as you got if you did minimum completion). However, I don’t think comparative progression is the root of the issue for some people.

Under the old system, if peoples’ preferences meant they only did three tasks that day, they got 3 AP. They made some progress. Complaints about dungeon dailies or the PvP mode dailies were rare (at least from the solo PvE players). I think the root of the complaints is the impact of the changes on a daily sense of progressing towards short term goals. The new system is not one that gets you 0 to 10 AP, it’s 0 or 10 AP. Partial completion nets no AP. If you opt out of two of the PvE options, no progress. I think that’s a big motivational factor that plays into the complaints about lack of choice in dailies.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’ll agree with the last sentence, though not necessarily with the rest of your thoughts.

The only players who’d even have the cap on their radar are those chasing the top of the leader boards. What’s more likely is that players who don’t give a fig about the boards do care about their next reward chest.

I’d think most people would be happy to have the higher rate. You make a fair point about absolute gain versus the old system (i.e., you can afford to miss a day and get the same number of AP as you got if you did minimum completion). However, I don’t think comparative progression is the root of the issue for some people.

Under the old system, if peoples’ preferences meant they only did three tasks that day, they got 3 AP. They made some progress. Complaints about dungeon dailies or the PvP mode dailies were rare (at least from the solo PvE players). I think the root of the complaints is the impact of the changes on a daily sense of progressing towards short term goals. The new system is not one that gets you 0 to 10 AP, it’s 0 or 10 AP. Partial completion nets no AP. If you opt out of two of the PvE options, no progress. I think that’s a big motivational factor that plays into the complaints about lack of choice in dailies.

There is also the increased specificity of the tasks. Not killing X mobs in Magumma, but kill X mobs in Brisbane Wildlands. I might have a character that needs map completion somewhere in Maguuma, but I don’t have a character that needs to go back to Brisbane Wildlands.

Increasing restrictiveness is not a part of “play as you like”.