Guild Wars 2

Disclaimer- edits are coming when I have time.

I’ve had my fair share of games and classes and roles (tank roles, melee dps roles, ranged dps roles, heal roles, disruption roles, cc roles, non heal buff/support roles, debuff roles and hybrids of these roles), tons of solo and group pve and pvp stuff… over the course of many years. I can honestly say that playing heal support roles in gw2 has been the least enjoyable experience in all my years of mmo gaming. So while gw2 has a leg up with certain things like freedom to move and cast, a good targeting system, a general responsiveness with skills, being able to mix and match different skills… the quality of playable roles outside of being a damage dealer is just not there. Yes of course we have some skills that simulate roles, but those roles are more “esque” in nature.

It’s no secret that professions were designed to be self sufficient, and that the original intent was to have each profession viable for groups. Those are true, but the prevalent role here is damage dealer. There are hybrid damage + bits of “light” roles to play, but those are not really that great to be honest. Having a few skills that do X for 3 seconds on a 60 second cool down is not much of a defining or enjoyable role.

I’m not here to say that we need to turn warriors into tanks, eles into cc mages or druids into mace wielding clerics… I’m saying roles need to be better and better defined. There is nothing wrong with giving each class access to every role, but those roles need to be smooth and enjoyable to play.

So back on the topic of healing roles…

HoT and Raids brought more heal support to the game with druid, Ventari and a bit more healing to ele with tempest. It was clearly stated that the “zerker” meta was unhealthy for long term gameplay and that changes were being made. Some shifts have occurred for sure, but the healing support tool kits given to professions are meh. The gated heals and reticle aiming heal design of druid is sincerely not good. The clunky Ventari tablet is not good. Ele water/tempest is most tolerable of the other 2, but still not good compared to most every other heal role in any other game. Like I said, gw2 shines with freedom of movement and the stuff I mentioned earlier, but those are core combat system designs and have nothing to do with roles at all…

There are players who want to log in and play a decent heal role, not to be met with frustration. I can’t even tell you how ultra rare it is to see a healer outside of raids, that’s how bad it is. I’ve personally never seen a Ventari Rev in wvw because it’s just not practical or useful compared to blasting the enemy with ranged hammer… I’ve rarely seen quality heal spec Druids in open world pve and www, and they were certainly not using CA 1 and 2. All they, and I, do is random spam a couple skills. Ele is not much better either honestly.

There is not any quality and smooth healing in this game. It’s either clunky reticle or move clunky healing object around or “heal spray and pray” mostly… Heal support is only decent when groups and opponents are more stationary or confined to a small area, like in raids.

When I look at the combat system as a whole, the only way we can remedy the heal support issues is to make most heal skills pbaoe (point blank area of effect) and have splash heals on enemy targeted attacks for the most part… Long duration large area healing “patches” as well. So for some simplified examples of this… We take Druid CA and make it a non gated “stance” maintained until downed or manually exited (reenter timer starts upon exit). Make CA skill 1 and 2 single target ranged attacks with large area splash heals. CA 3, 4, 5 and seeds become large radius 5 target pbaoe burst heals that deal dot damage, and Glyphs continue to do what they do. Ventari tablet becomes a “backpack” so Revs can run around beating stuff up and doing their heal “things” tied in with energy mechanics. Ele is most similar to this style I’m recommending, but some improvements could be made.

Just to break down the above a bit more there could easily be enough variation for all profession heal roles using the burst, big dot, regen and “patch” styles

Druid- Staff “hippie” with CA “healing mage stance” that does some damage with a focus on heavy burst heals.

Rev- Staff Ventari “backpacker” with energy mechanics.

Ele- Warhorn/water/tempest/shouter/whatever… becomes the “soothing mist-er” style with regen and emergency “burst” dot heals.

Warrior- Staff “monk” with various healing support banners that cover large areas.

Necromancer- Frontline “juicer” hammer healer. Enemy takes damage and their life force “splash” heals allies.

Engineer- The “archer medic” that uses longbow or shortbow to fire offensive arrows fit with various healing canisters that support front liners.

Mesmer- Dual sword “blade dancer” that weaves steel and magic to slice up enemies and dot heal allies. Illusions function the same way. F skills do burst healing or regen or remove conditions or bigger dot heals.

Thief- The “shadow healer” channels the defensive properties of “shadow magic” to heal self and allies with an off hand Focus. This super cool healing “shadow magic” surrounds the thief and nearby allies in a wispy darkness that regenerate health and remove conditions.

Guardian- Revamp shield to constantly surround the guardian with “holy fire” that spreads big dot heals or regens or purges conditions on self and allies over a large area depending on toggle F skill chosen.

I know I’m just throwing out lots of crazy stuff, but the entire premise is to make healing support roles smooth and enjoyable to play in this movement heavy game. There is nothing worse right now during combat than to use all these clunky skills to support our teams. It’s poor design when a healer has to apologize for not having access to heals on Druid and to chase moving players with reticles and tablets hoping it will heal them. There has to be a better balance between incoming damage and conditions and heal and cleansing support. Doing these will also add another dimension to gameplay and provide decent roles to play instead of just dps/ultralight support for a few seconds.

I’ll have some edits like I mentioned, but I wanted to throw it out there because I’ve been frustrated playing my favorite role since hot launched. Maybe I’ll try to flesh out the simplified profession heal role ideas to make them more understandable and sensible.

The reason I only play my druid in raids and not WvW is because I do not want to exclusively play that role and need the variety of killing people in WvW.

Also, the real issue is not the method by which the classes heal but how rewards are calculated for not doing any real damage. You can heal your team in WvW till pigs fly but you are not going to get bags or rank as much as if you nuke a blob with meteor shower. Same goes for pve; heal the zerg at Tequatl but you still struggle to get silver.

You want players to play healers and support, you need to give them incentives/rewards that parallel doing the same in terms of damage. (Heal someone 5k should be the same as doing 10k damage or so to a player because of crits and things that do not apply to healing.)

1 – the algorithm that calculates rewards was updated to include healing and boon application, in addition to damage and CC contribution.

2 – I see little wrong with the current mechanics of healing. True, Ventari needs to be buffed/reworked some, but Druid and Tempest perform their respective healing roles just fine. I actually like that this game places the same active/reactive play-style that dps roles tend to experience on the healers as well. It keeps my healing from becoming a point-n-click adventure.

I’ve always played a healer role in MMOs, and I gotta say playing engineer healer is the most fun I’ve had so far in the last 12 years of heal/support.

In most games, a healer targets a party member and taps some buttons, but for a medic engie everything is a “skillshot” or PBAOE except the medblaster, and it’s just lovely to play with.

Super active and “hard” if you compare it to any other MMOs healing mechanics.

Tiilimon.6094:

I’ve always played a healer role in MMOs, and I gotta say playing engineer healer is the most fun I’ve had so far in the last 12 years of heal/support.

In most games, a healer targets a party member and taps some buttons, but for a medic engie everything is a “skillshot” or PBAOE except the medblaster, and it’s just lovely to play with.

Super active and “hard” if you compare it to any other MMOs healing mechanics.

MEDIC! MEDIC!

Sorry, I couldn’t help but make that reference. xD

It’d be nice if there were some equivalence in how various classes heal. Some healing roles have much better coefficients and simultaneous applications of healing power. Druid and Tempest/Water-Ele are pretty good about cranking heals out, and Guardian can do the same with just the number of simultaneous heals and protection boons.

And then there’s classes like Warrior. Even with a strong investment in Tactics and Discipline, there just aren’t enough heals to really be considered a strong support. Shouts dribble heals on semi-long cooldowns, and the heals are tied to more offensively-driven skills. Banners are a joke.

Necro’s also pretty laughable on support. You might be able to do some vampiric healing and a well, but the output isn’t nearly as good as an actual support-enabled class.

Healing support isn’t something this game is designed around. You’re better of supporting with things that help your teammates do more damage or mitigate more damage than trying to heal them. That usually means they failed a dodge or were in the wrong location, stand in circles and i dunno what else.

And support is always very dependable on the skill of your supportees. You could do the best job supporting but someone who is alive but doesn’t do much, doesn’t dodge doesn’t use his heal skill is going to be a huge burden to keep alive. And then you might come to the conclusion that support is bad, but it is just players who don’t know how to get the most out of it themselves. Especially in the open world.

That’s why most support healers aren’t good anyway, you can mitigate most damage with just dodging and a healing skill. The rest is what a support does, like stunbreak, heal conditions apply weakening conditions CC reflect walls and spreading auras.

Healing alone is rather pointless in gw2.

I had to log in just to support Swaggers post. has some really great ideas there. I agree, support rolls, all of them are lackluster compared to damage. I actually ENJOY healing, tanking, buffing and supporting. The game has all these tools to make each roll viable, right down to gear options, which rarely get used because it isn’t supported.

Having each class have its own “flavor” of support, like the OP suggested, would really push this game over the top. I know A-net wants to prevent a trinity, but having only damage is a bad design. Zerker still is the preferred method.

To have a dedicated healing build for each profession you need a situation where that build is necessary.

What I mean is that a PvE encounter must be more effective with X healers supporting Y damage dealers than having everyone on the offensive and taking care of themselves and their group as needed. Also implied is that dedicated healers increase the dps of dedicated attackers more than total dps would be with only attackers.

So what kind of PvE situation does that sound like? Escort events are one such situation.

GW2 does not have trinity. The sooner you realize the game means for you to be doing damage ALONG with whatever else you do, the more enjoyable it gets.

Anchoku.8142:

So what kind of PvE situation does that sound like? Escort events are one such situation.

Legendaries and high-damage champions. Some world bosses, too.

Basically any situation where the philosophy of “kill it with max dps before it can kill you” won’t work.

~EW

FrizzFreston.5290:

Healing support isn’t something this game is designed around. You’re better of supporting with things that help your teammates do more damage or mitigate more damage than trying to heal them. That usually means they failed a dodge or were in the wrong location, stand in circles and i dunno what else.

And support is always very dependable on the skill of your supportees. You could do the best job supporting but someone who is alive but doesn’t do much, doesn’t dodge doesn’t use his heal skill is going to be a huge burden to keep alive. And then you might come to the conclusion that support is bad, but it is just players who don’t know how to get the most out of it themselves. Especially in the open world.

That’s why most support healers aren’t good anyway, you can mitigate most damage with just dodging and a healing skill. The rest is what a support does, like stunbreak, heal conditions apply weakening conditions CC reflect walls and spreading auras.

Healing alone is rather pointless in gw2.

Well, more heal support specs were introduced for reasons with hot so I’m asking for them to be improved.

Healing is not pointless.

Playing any roles should not be a frustration experience, but that’s exactly what it feels like healing on any profession in any mode.

Aidan Savage.2078:

GW2 does not have trinity. The sooner you realize the game means for you to be doing damage ALONG with whatever else you do, the more enjoyable it gets.

And the devs already stated they wanted to move away from the “zerker” aka “damage only meta” because it was unhealthy.

Maybe the devs had a different vision for professions and combat early on, but we all know every profession has been forced into damage roles for the most part. While that’s great for all the players who play dps in every game, it shafts those of us who like diversity. Unfortunately the professions and combat in gw2 are still much more on the “one dimensional” damage side, and until better roles are offered it will always stay as such.

There are shifts happening in game with improved encounters, more gear options, more diversity with elite specializations… so we can’t sit here and pretend those changes aren’t intentional. Also, we can’t dismiss the fact more heal roles were introduced.

Swagger.1459:

Well, more heal support specs were introduced for reasons with hot so I’m asking for them to be improved.

Healing is not pointless.

Playing any roles should not be a frustration experience, but that’s exactly what it feels like healing on any profession in any mode.

They introduced the option yes, but the reality is that healing alone is not going to do much for you outside raids. Not that healing is pointless in general. I played support throughout this game’s life and I found that when I’m the one doing damage whilst also providing support for my allies works alot better than going full support healbot which seems to be the direction you want support to take.

More healing will not make the options much better. It will make people dodge even less than they do, stand more in circles, stand more outside of circles, be more stationary and require even more healing. Your ideas are basically just making healing → more healing. I don’t see that that would make a very great design.

If anything frustrates is not that healing is not enough, it’s more that players don’t know how to take advantage of what other players are supporting them with.

Delgotta.3817:

I had to log in just to support Swaggers post. has some really great ideas there. I agree, support rolls, all of them are lackluster compared to damage. I actually ENJOY healing, tanking, buffing and supporting. The game has all these tools to make each roll viable, right down to gear options, which rarely get used because it isn’t supported.

Having each class have its own “flavor” of support, like the OP suggested, would really push this game over the top. I know A-net wants to prevent a trinity, but having only damage is a bad design. Zerker still is the preferred method.

The fact that Zerker is still preferred is not only by class design though.

Enemies in PvE, outside of HoT were at least some support gets to see the light of day, just don’t warrant other playstyles as much.

This though would mean the core game would need to get harder, Zerker would have to be less profitable jadajada…

The community will make sure that will never happen because let’s be honest, there are enough players that just want to see high damage and not engaging game mechanics

LouWolfskin.3492:

Delgotta.3817:

I had to log in just to support Swaggers post. has some really great ideas there. I agree, support rolls, all of them are lackluster compared to damage. I actually ENJOY healing, tanking, buffing and supporting. The game has all these tools to make each roll viable, right down to gear options, which rarely get used because it isn’t supported.

Having each class have its own “flavor” of support, like the OP suggested, would really push this game over the top. I know A-net wants to prevent a trinity, but having only damage is a bad design. Zerker still is the preferred method.

The fact that Zerker is still preferred is not only by class design though.

Enemies in PvE, outside of HoT were at least some support gets to see the light of day, just don’t warrant other playstyles as much.

This though would mean the core game would need to get harder, Zerker would have to be less profitable jadajada…

The community will make sure that will never happen because let’s be honest, there are enough players that just want to see high damage and not engaging game mechanics

Orrrrrrrr, there are enough players that enjoy the reliance on personal skill and not having to have a healer and a tank tag along with them just to get through open world content.

Get out of the zerg and jump off the hero point train. Most of the elite and champ mobs have engaging mechanics that you actually need to play around when you’re not spamming 1 in an ocean of other players.

Tentonhammr.7849:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Delgotta.3817:

I had to log in just to support Swaggers post. has some really great ideas there. I agree, support rolls, all of them are lackluster compared to damage. I actually ENJOY healing, tanking, buffing and supporting. The game has all these tools to make each roll viable, right down to gear options, which rarely get used because it isn’t supported.

Having each class have its own “flavor” of support, like the OP suggested, would really push this game over the top. I know A-net wants to prevent a trinity, but having only damage is a bad design. Zerker still is the preferred method.

The fact that Zerker is still preferred is not only by class design though.

Enemies in PvE, outside of HoT were at least some support gets to see the light of day, just don’t warrant other playstyles as much.

This though would mean the core game would need to get harder, Zerker would have to be less profitable jadajada…

The community will make sure that will never happen because let’s be honest, there are enough players that just want to see high damage and not engaging game mechanics

Orrrrrrrr, there are enough players that enjoy the reliance on personal skill and not having to have a healer and a tank tag along with them just to get through open world content.

Get out of the zerg and jump off the hero point train. Most of the elite and champ mobs have engaging mechanics that you actually need to play around when you’re not spamming 1 in an ocean of other players.

I’d rather see those events force the bigger groups to play better together and that doesn’t mean pure healer/tank builds should be needed.

Balanced builds in this game give you enough to do for supportive purposes.

If an event, for example, would scale in a way that with 5+ players the first veterans spawn that actually support their allies and are harder to kill you need more damage, if then later, let’s say 10+ enemies with more conditions and/or counter skills spawn you need some more heal/cc whatnot.
And an overall more rounded group of people would get through there with no problem.

Then again, this is my point of view and i am in the vast majority with this.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Swagger.1459:

Well, more heal support specs were introduced for reasons with hot so I’m asking for them to be improved.

Healing is not pointless.

Playing any roles should not be a frustration experience, but that’s exactly what it feels like healing on any profession in any mode.

They introduced the option yes, but the reality is that healing alone is not going to do much for you outside raids. Not that healing is pointless in general. I played support throughout this game’s life and I found that when I’m the one doing damage whilst also providing support for my allies works alot better than going full support healbot which seems to be the direction you want support to take.

More healing will not make the options much better. It will make people dodge even less than they do, stand more in circles, stand more outside of circles, be more stationary and require even more healing. Your ideas are basically just making healing -> more healing. I don’t see that that would make a very great design.

If anything frustrates is not that healing is not enough, it’s more that players don’t know how to take advantage of what other players are supporting them with.

The Druid, Ventari and Tempest are already part of the game. I’m asking for improvements to those roles. They play and perform awkwardly by design. Ele is most fluid, but still not as quality as it could be.

As long as they remain I’ll keep asking for repairs. I’m not a dps player, I’m a support oriented player who has played various support roles in games. I can say hands down that healing support here is the least favorite experience I’ve ever had. I’m also not alone with these sentiments.

Do not conflate ‘support’ with ‘healing’.

Support in Guild Wars 2 comes in many forms. For instance in raids, your DPS comes from classes like Tempest or Necromancer. All of the heavy professions have lower DPS in comparison but all of the heavy professions are valued. Why? For the support and utility that they bring. None of them are ‘healers’ (yes, Ventari does need work).

Likewise, you will very rarely see a raid without a Chronomancer, yet Mesmers have the lowest DPS in the game by quite a margin. Chronomancers are some of the best tanks in the game and even when tanking isn’t needed, they bring a boatload of utility – of cooldown-reduction, ability-speeding SUPPORTIVE utility that’s essential.

On to healing specifically:

Healing in Guild Wars 2 is in its fledgling stages and I hope to see it develop, but for me, it would be a nightmare to see it develop into what you describe. Additionally, I like the core ‘feel’ of both Druid and Tempest healers. I like how the two are distinct from one another and provide different sorts of heals, which means that they are valuable in different ways. For sustained healing throughout an even-tempered fight, Tempests are lovely, but for burst heals in a fight with a more erratic tempo, Druids are awesome. In some fights (like Matthias Gabrel), having both can really help.

And I will stress here that Druids are not supposed to be ‘fluid’ healers. They are burst healers. They are there to help deal with moments of high pressure. They do that well.

Safer Saviour.9685:

Do not conflate ‘support’ with ‘healing’.

Support in Guild Wars 2 comes in many forms. For instance in raids, your DPS comes from classes like Tempest or Necromancer. All of the heavy professions have lower DPS in comparison but all of the heavy professions are valued. Why? For the support and utility that they bring. None of them are ‘healers’ (yes, Ventari does need work).

Likewise, you will very rarely see a raid without a Chronomancer, yet Mesmers have the lowest DPS in the game by quite a margin. Chronomancers are some of the best tanks in the game and even when tanking isn’t needed, they bring a boatload of utility – of cooldown-reduction, ability-speeding SUPPORTIVE utility that’s essential.

On to healing specifically:

Healing in Guild Wars 2 is in its fledgling stages and I hope to see it develop, but for me, it would be a nightmare to see it develop into what you describe. Additionally, I like the core ‘feel’ of both Druid and Tempest healers. I like how the two are distinct from one another and provide different sorts of heals, which means that they are valuable in different ways. For sustained healing throughout an even-tempered fight, Tempests are lovely, but for burst heals in a fight with a more erratic tempo, Druids are awesome. In some fights (like Matthias Gabrel), having both can really help.

And I will stress here that Druids are not supposed to be ‘fluid’ healers. They are burst healers. They are there to help deal with moments of high pressure. They do that well.

Do you want to niggle about wording?

Yes, “fledgling” stage of introducing healing and it’s evident and it has a long way to go.

I don’t care what the Druid was supposed to be. I care about healing my teams properly. I care about not needing to apologizing to teammates because heals are not ready. I care about having a good experience healing, not having to chase down players with reticles and tomes while everyone needs to move like a heard of cats by combat design.

Swagger.1459:

Safer Saviour.9685:

Do not conflate ‘support’ with ‘healing’.

Support in Guild Wars 2 comes in many forms. For instance in raids, your DPS comes from classes like Tempest or Necromancer. All of the heavy professions have lower DPS in comparison but all of the heavy professions are valued. Why? For the support and utility that they bring. None of them are ‘healers’ (yes, Ventari does need work).

Likewise, you will very rarely see a raid without a Chronomancer, yet Mesmers have the lowest DPS in the game by quite a margin. Chronomancers are some of the best tanks in the game and even when tanking isn’t needed, they bring a boatload of utility – of cooldown-reduction, ability-speeding SUPPORTIVE utility that’s essential.

On to healing specifically:

Healing in Guild Wars 2 is in its fledgling stages and I hope to see it develop, but for me, it would be a nightmare to see it develop into what you describe. Additionally, I like the core ‘feel’ of both Druid and Tempest healers. I like how the two are distinct from one another and provide different sorts of heals, which means that they are valuable in different ways. For sustained healing throughout an even-tempered fight, Tempests are lovely, but for burst heals in a fight with a more erratic tempo, Druids are awesome. In some fights (like Matthias Gabrel), having both can really help.

And I will stress here that Druids are not supposed to be ‘fluid’ healers. They are burst healers. They are there to help deal with moments of high pressure. They do that well.

Do you want to niggle about wording?

Yes, “fledgling” stage of introducing healing and it’s evident and it has a long way to go.

I don’t care what the Druid was supposed to be. I care about healing my teams properly. I care about not needing to apologizing to teammates because heals are not ready. I care about having a good experience healing, not having to chase down players with reticles and tomes while everyone needs to move like a heard of cats by combat design.

What you describe sounds like you want healing to become passive and point-n-click to the point that you don’t have to care Where you are healing, so much as That you are healing.

If I am correct with my analysis of this, then I thoroughly disagree. I love that healing in this game is a dynamic process; I get to experience the same ‘engaged’ sense that normally only dps-roles get to do.

Using all your heals and then getting mad that you are out of them when you team needs you…

is like using all your damaging attacks when the enemy is invulnerable, and then getting mad that you hardly did any damage.

It is a matter of timing and conservation that adds a flavorful element to healing that I deeply enjoy.

Swagger.1459:

Aidan Savage.2078:

GW2 does not have trinity. The sooner you realize the game means for you to be doing damage ALONG with whatever else you do, the more enjoyable it gets.

And the devs already stated they wanted to move away from the “zerker” aka “damage only meta” because it was unhealthy.

Maybe the devs had a different vision for professions and combat early on, but we all know every profession has been forced into damage roles for the most part. While that’s great for all the players who play dps in every game, it shafts those of us who like diversity. Unfortunately the professions and combat in gw2 are still much more on the “one dimensional” damage side, and until better roles are offered it will always stay as such.

There are shifts happening in game with improved encounters, more gear options, more diversity with elite specializations… so we can’t sit here and pretend those changes aren’t intentional. Also, we can’t dismiss the fact more heal roles were introduced.

Clearly you cant understand what I said. You should probably go read my post again before making another one. Moving away from the zerker meta doesnt mean they’re going to go to an opposite extreme. Regardless of what else you do, the game INTENDS for you to be inflicting damage. That’s how encounters are built. kitten dont die because you heal it to death.

Razor.9872:

I love that healing in this game is a dynamic process; I get to experience the same ‘engaged’ sense that normally only dps-roles get to do.deeply enjoy.

I had to single this out, because there’s a special set of feelings I get that I wouldn’t from WoW and other similar old-school MMOs. Setting down that targeting field and:

the target moves out of AoE
“GARGBLARG, What the Q-bert are you doing?!”
See also: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/75/55/c5/7555c519a37639cacf73bad558d2c201.jpg

nailed it
“F’ing Sweet! Take that no-heal meta!”’
See also: http://24.media.tumblr.com/1bbab78a4203a89b3f5185d0b6c1f289/tumblr_msimst8KgY1shtg7lo1_400.gif

I don’t mind if healing requires some positioning and active damage (much less boring than stand and cast, spam 1 to heal tank), I just wish all classes were at least reasonably close in performance for it. But hey, that’s what elite specs are for, so here’s to hoping.

Rauderi.8706:

, I just wish all classes were at least reasonably close in performance for it. But hey, that’s what elite specs are for, so here’s to hoping.

Some classes just arent logically suited to it. Warriors, for example, I can only see having their “utility” healing capacity. They’re a “hit things harder” class all the way.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Some classes just arent logically suited to it. Warriors, for example, I can only see having their “utility” healing capacity. They’re a “hit things harder” class all the way.

Not entirely. Shout-heals and regen from the banner can add a lot if the Warrior has prioritized Healing Power. Add rune of the trooper and you’re a healing/cleansing beast.

I’ve done a build where I could put down a single banner and keep regen up 100% of the time, even through the cooldown of that banner.

It’s true that Warrior has a lot more personal sustain (AH, Healing Sig, RR), but they can also help a lot with group healing if they’ve the right build.

~EW

I think the OP has got things turned around. This game’s roles aren’t supposed to be carefully defined — that is mostly up to us. I don’t play the role my team deserves — I play the role my team needs. I play druid when the team has trouble surviving; I don’t otherwise. I dust off the mesmer when the issue is utility or reflects. The ele can swap around between roles without too much effort.

I like that GW2 (mostly) provides us a variety of tools and gives us the freedom to figure out which role to play.

This has been my whole beef with the elite specializations. Nearly every class got higher damage output – absolutely ludicrous in some cases. The Ranger got Druid. Sure you can build a tanky troll build and slowly kill an opponent, but that is boring, and so is being roped into healing for raids.

Anyway, I was very disappointed in the inequitable distribution of the elite specializations.

Heibi.4251:

This has been my whole beef with the elite specializations. Nearly every class got higher damage output – absolutely ludicrous in some cases. The Ranger got Druid. Sure you can build a tanky troll build and slowly kill an opponent, but that is boring, and so is being roped into healing for raids.

Anyway, I was very disappointed in the inequitable distribution of the elite specializations.

And yet, many things actually do need that sort of healing that arent raids. Ever try to do scale 100 mai trin in 25 minutes, or less? Good luck getting that running around like headless chickens. A druid allows the fight to be done in a less risky, but not trivial, tank n spank run. I’ve seen my regular group finish mai trin in 15 minutes before, which is nice. Sadly I wasnt on the last step of ad infinitum by those runs.

Swagger.1459:

Engineer- The “archer medic” that uses longbow or shortbow to fire offensive arrows fit with various healing canisters that support front liners.

That’s mortar kit.

I think the OP has got things turned around. This game’s roles aren’t supposed to be carefully defined — that is mostly up to us. I don’t play the role my team deserves — I play the role my team needs. I play druid when the team has trouble surviving; I don’t otherwise. I dust off the mesmer when the issue is utility or reflects. The ele can swap around between roles without too much effort.

I like that GW2 (mostly) provides us a variety of tools and gives us the freedom to figure out which role to play.

But if the roles aren’t carefully defined shouldn’t you be saying “When I need to heal my team I take X skill on my Warrior.” instead of “When I need to heal I take a Druid.”? The roles are as clear as day honestly; you don’t take an Engineer to do a Mesmer’s job and you don’t take a Thief to be your Ranger and so forth and so on.

We do not define these roles, we just choose which ones to play, which isn’t the same thing in my opinion. Defining a role to me means actually being able to take any class and make it fit what you need.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I think the OP has got things turned around. This game’s roles aren’t supposed to be carefully defined — that is mostly up to us. I don’t play the role my team deserves — I play the role my team needs. I play druid when the team has trouble surviving; I don’t otherwise. I dust off the mesmer when the issue is utility or reflects. The ele can swap around between roles without too much effort.

I like that GW2 (mostly) provides us a variety of tools and gives us the freedom to figure out which role to play.

thats incorrect, in pvp for ele you can go support but anything else is not viable against a team with comparable skill, e.g go dps and you have no defense and melt like butter when focused down.

The problem is support participation is bugged in wvw. Healers shouldn’t be forced to deal damage to get rewards.

guildabd.6529:

The problem is support participation is bugged in wvw. Healers shouldn’t be forced to deal damage to get rewards.

I’m going to assume that they are working on that bug, or are at least aware of it, and wish to work on it soon.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Swagger.1459:

Aidan Savage.2078:

GW2 does not have trinity. The sooner you realize the game means for you to be doing damage ALONG with whatever else you do, the more enjoyable it gets.

And the devs already stated they wanted to move away from the “zerker” aka “damage only meta” because it was unhealthy.

Maybe the devs had a different vision for professions and combat early on, but we all know every profession has been forced into damage roles for the most part. While that’s great for all the players who play dps in every game, it shafts those of us who like diversity. Unfortunately the professions and combat in gw2 are still much more on the “one dimensional” damage side, and until better roles are offered it will always stay as such.

There are shifts happening in game with improved encounters, more gear options, more diversity with elite specializations… so we can’t sit here and pretend those changes aren’t intentional. Also, we can’t dismiss the fact more heal roles were introduced.

Clearly you cant understand what I said. You should probably go read my post again before making another one. Moving away from the zerker meta doesnt mean they’re going to go to an opposite extreme. Regardless of what else you do, the game INTENDS for you to be inflicting damage. That’s how encounters are built. kitten dont die because you heal it to death.

Sure we have trinity, it’s called “Damage, Control, Support”.

The devs have been aware of the issues with profession and combat designs… Quote from 2 years ago…

“We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.

Jon"

HoT was designed to make a shift away from the “Damage” meta and improve other roles including heal support… Watch the beginning of the video.

http://dulfy.net/2015/09/25/gw2-druid-ranger-elite-specialization-livestream-reveal/

Heal support is not smooth, not as fun to play and needs a heck of a lot more improvements than other roles here.

“I can’t even tell you how ultra rare it is to see a healer outside of raids, that’s how bad it is.”

This bit stood out for me. I am not sure that it indicates what the OP thinks it does. I am fairly confident that the reason one does not, normally, see dedicated healers outside of raids is because there is little, or no, use for them outside of raids, not because playing a healer is difficult, frustrating, or anything else in GW2. Ultimately players do not, IMO, want their characters to be useless, a waste of a spot in a group, or otherwise looked down upon by others.

Sure a group of friends can choose to play using a traditional healer type in their group, but, in most situations, this will mean the entire group performs less well.

Some people love playing support/healing roles, OP.

No, the game wasn’t designed to have any profession fill those roles. If that was the case, ANet lied in its manifesto and failed miserably.

The true goal for the game was that any comp could beat any encounter, which we saw with dungeons.

Since people raged about the “zerk meta” ANet implemented hard roles for professions to perform in raids.

And now we have support-based builds based on an open-ended framework which gets enforced due to the design of the content.

See, what people kitten ingly failed to recognize is that any role-based design is strict enforcement of a player-driven meta; that’s it. It doesn’t make the roles any more enjoyable, it just enforces the dependency and puts more strict emphasis on having the correct comp.

People brought this on themselves demanding for these roles to be mandatory in play or have such an emphasis put on them; there will always be a meta, and people will always enjoy playing in certain ways. That’s just how things work, because pushing for efficiency and recognizing and subsequently following patterns and procedures for success is human nature and part of intelligence.

Razor.9872:

Swagger.1459:

Safer Saviour.9685:

Do not conflate ‘support’ with ‘healing’.

Support in Guild Wars 2 comes in many forms. For instance in raids, your DPS comes from classes like Tempest or Necromancer. All of the heavy professions have lower DPS in comparison but all of the heavy professions are valued. Why? For the support and utility that they bring. None of them are ‘healers’ (yes, Ventari does need work).

Likewise, you will very rarely see a raid without a Chronomancer, yet Mesmers have the lowest DPS in the game by quite a margin. Chronomancers are some of the best tanks in the game and even when tanking isn’t needed, they bring a boatload of utility – of cooldown-reduction, ability-speeding SUPPORTIVE utility that’s essential.

On to healing specifically:

Healing in Guild Wars 2 is in its fledgling stages and I hope to see it develop, but for me, it would be a nightmare to see it develop into what you describe. Additionally, I like the core ‘feel’ of both Druid and Tempest healers. I like how the two are distinct from one another and provide different sorts of heals, which means that they are valuable in different ways. For sustained healing throughout an even-tempered fight, Tempests are lovely, but for burst heals in a fight with a more erratic tempo, Druids are awesome. In some fights (like Matthias Gabrel), having both can really help.

And I will stress here that Druids are not supposed to be ‘fluid’ healers. They are burst healers. They are there to help deal with moments of high pressure. They do that well.

Do you want to niggle about wording?

Yes, “fledgling” stage of introducing healing and it’s evident and it has a long way to go.

I don’t care what the Druid was supposed to be. I care about healing my teams properly. I care about not needing to apologizing to teammates because heals are not ready. I care about having a good experience healing, not having to chase down players with reticles and tomes while everyone needs to move like a heard of cats by combat design.

What you describe sounds like you want healing to become passive and point-n-click to the point that you don’t have to care Where you are healing, so much as That you are healing.

These suggestions fit in pretty well considering there is lack of player targeting and players are constantly moving. There is nothing passive about needing to play your role properly, and there is more than just healing in closed quarters or in stationary encounters. You could put a bit more thought into how combat unfolds in the various modes.

If I am correct with my analysis of this, then I thoroughly disagree. I love that healing in this game is a dynamic process; I get to experience the same ‘engaged’ sense that normally only dps-roles get to do.

Are you really saying that playing dps is a “dynamic process”? Seriously?

Using all your heals and then getting mad that you are out of them when you team needs you…

I like this assumption.

is like using all your damaging attacks when the enemy is invulnerable, and then getting mad that you hardly did any damage.

It is a matter of timing and conservation that adds a flavorful element to healing that I deeply enjoy.

You obviously miss the premise of this thread and are not look at combat as a whole.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I think the OP has got things turned around. This game’s roles aren’t supposed to be carefully defined — that is mostly up to us. I don’t play the role my team deserves — I play the role my team needs. I play druid when the team has trouble surviving; I don’t otherwise. I dust off the mesmer when the issue is utility or reflects. The ele can swap around between roles without too much effort.

I like that GW2 (mostly) provides us a variety of tools and gives us the freedom to figure out which role to play.

vesica tempestas.1563:

thats incorrect, in pvp for ele you can go support but anything else is not viable against a team with comparable skill, e.g go dps and you have no defense and melt like butter when focused down.

I should have typed that I was referring to PvE. The point remains: I can define the role I want to play; the game doesn’t lock me into one thing.

DGraves.3720:

But if the roles aren’t carefully defined shouldn’t you be saying “When I need to heal my team I take X skill on my Warrior.” instead of “When I need to heal I take a Druid.”? The roles are as clear as day honestly; you don’t take an Engineer to do a Mesmer’s job and you don’t take a Thief to be your Ranger and so forth and so on.

We do not define these roles, we just choose which ones to play, which isn’t the same thing in my opinion. Defining a role to me means actually being able to take any class and make it fit what you need.

I can’t agree with your abstraction. I don’t want that every class can do everything equally well — I want that I can swap around profs & builds and play the sort of role I want. When I wrote, “when I want to heal, I take my druid” — meant exactly that: when I want to heal. Ele & engineer also have some very effective healing builds for PvE. (And there’s the fun but perhaps horribly niche “Stealth Medic” for WvW.)

I think the issue is that the OP is expecting a traditional healer role, which more or less requires a traditional tank, too (or at least, conventional mechanics for which players developed the role originally). I like that GW2 hasn’t felt compelled to follow the 40-year old tropes from paper and pencil games in which there’s a close range fighter, a ranged erm ranger, a ranged defense/restore caster, and a ranged offense/buff caster… and all sorts of hybrids. Instead, every class is (mostly) self contained, with a range of things that makes them useful & fun.

The problem is to make heal support more viable in open world PvE you have to reduce the survivability of solo players who prefer other play styles. Because this game is designed around avoiding damage and not healing damage taken. Dodges, blocks, evades, blinds, reflects, aegis, etc.

Personally, I like being able to play by myself without having to worry as much about my health than I already do. Because I prefer to play primarily DPS.

DeceiverX.8361:

Some people love playing support/healing roles, OP.

No, the game wasn’t designed to have any profession fill those roles. If that was the case, ANet lied in its manifesto and failed miserably.

Elite specializations were designed to introduce role tool kits for each profession and to fill combat styles with weapons and skills.

The true goal for the game was that any comp could beat any encounter, which we saw with dungeons.

Since people raged about the “zerk meta” ANet implemented hard roles for professions to perform in raids.

And now we have support-based builds based on an open-ended framework which gets enforced due to the design of the content.

See, what people kitten ingly failed to recognize is that any role-based design is strict enforcement of a player-driven meta; that’s it. It doesn’t make the roles any more enjoyable, it just enforces the dependency and puts more strict emphasis on having the correct comp.

People brought this on themselves demanding for these roles to be mandatory in play or have such an emphasis put on them; there will always be a meta, and people will always enjoy playing in certain ways. That’s just how things work, because pushing for efficiency and recognizing and subsequently following patterns and procedures for success is human nature and part of intelligence.

The devs made a conscious design decision to make content more difficult and to start moving away from the “damage” meta with hot because it was unhealthy. Those were clearly stated, so it’s not just some imaginary player enforced ruling, it’s the devs starting to transition to improved content and improved roles.

Bolded

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I think the issue is that the OP is expecting a traditional healer role, which more or less requires a traditional tank, too (or at least, conventional mechanics for which players developed the role originally). I like that GW2 hasn’t felt compelled to follow the 40-year old tropes from paper and pencil games in which there’s a close range fighter, a ranged erm ranger, a ranged defense/restore caster, and a ranged offense/buff caster… and all sorts of hybrids. Instead, every class is (mostly) self contained, with a range of things that makes them useful & fun.

Hi Ill!

GW2 professions are hybrid by nature due to the fact you can switch up elements of your build. Elites were specifically designed to add more role tool kits for professions to choose from and to fill combat role gaps. The next set of elites will also follow this pattern of role and gap filling. The mention of the professions and heal roles at the end was to highlight the types of healing that “fit in” better to the overall combat designs.

My primary concern is the actual design and play mechanics of said healing builds I mentioned. Arenanet is transitioning away from the “Damage” meta and I’m asking for “smoother” healing mechanics that work better for this movement heavy game.

Not sure what professions you have, but take your heal specced Druid, a heal specced Rev Ventari and heal specced Ele Water/Tempest… and focus primarily on healing support in all movement based combat scenarios in pve, spvp and wvw. Spend some time trying it out and let me know how you felt after and how effective you actually were. We could even run some stuff together for fun if you wish so I can share my perspective better.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

DGraves.3720:

But if the roles aren’t carefully defined shouldn’t you be saying “When I need to heal my team I take X skill on my Warrior.” instead of “When I need to heal I take a Druid.”? The roles are as clear as day honestly; you don’t take an Engineer to do a Mesmer’s job and you don’t take a Thief to be your Ranger and so forth and so on.

We do not define these roles, we just choose which ones to play, which isn’t the same thing in my opinion. Defining a role to me means actually being able to take any class and make it fit what you need.

I can’t agree with your abstraction. I don’t want that every class can do everything equally well — I want that I can swap around profs & builds and play the sort of role I want. When I wrote, “when I want to heal, I take my druid” — meant exactly that: when I want to heal. Ele & engineer also have some very effective healing builds for PvE. (And there’s the fun but perhaps horribly niche “Stealth Medic” for WvW.)

I have no problem with not every class being able to do everything, that’s fine, but I think that the roles are clear. What is interesting however is the fact that every class can take care of itself equally well (self-healer) so this creates that void that the OP is talking about. There are tanks, there are bruisers, there are controllers, there are conditionmancers and DoT classes, there are supporters and buffers but there’s a real lack of a healing role. Druid is the only real healing class in the game. That’s not a bad thing but it definitely is a clear role for that particular class.

The only reason why I picked up on this particular statement is because your choice to play a role is not the same as the roles themselves being sort of hazy. They really aren’t. You have more wiggle room but really Mesmer isn’t Necromancer, etc. and they have very real roles with very real utility and pragmatism attached. That’s why it bleeds over into the issue at hand; “Heal/Support” really doesn’t exist in the same sense as the other roles because at least each could sort of manage the role but good luck getting half the classes good for such an endeavor.

I think the issue is that the OP is expecting a traditional healer role, which more or less requires a traditional tank, too (or at least, conventional mechanics for which players developed the role originally). I like that GW2 hasn’t felt compelled to follow the 40-year old tropes from paper and pencil games in which there’s a close range fighter, a ranged erm ranger, a ranged defense/restore caster, and a ranged offense/buff caster… and all sorts of hybrids. Instead, every class is (mostly) self contained, with a range of things that makes them useful & fun.

Warriors are and always have been traditional tanks though. They’re natural bruisers (heavy-damage tanks) just by design. I do know and understand what you’re saying to be true, it is good that they deviated, but their branch system sort of wobbled to one side way too heavily; boons, healing, support and general maintenance roles don’t really exist. You have damage output support but not really overall support without extreme gimmicks and builds built specifically to engage that gap and none of them do it terribly well. That’s why Druid is so controversial and important; they are the first and only class in the game to really fill in those bubbles and make damage not primary. Even old support which was effective was tied to damage gimmicks.

1. Heal support is not required for anything in the game, including raids. You have other options wherever a fully heal focused character would be used. You have the option of playing it, yes, but then you only have yourself to blame if you play it and don’t enjoy it.

2. Your proposed changes seem to mainly remove skill/strategy from the healing equation. I suppose that would mean “smoother” in the sense that it becomes idiot-proof when every heal becomes “wash the pain away” and warrior shouts, but it also becomes much less rewarding mechanically speaking and would require a severe reduction in numbers.

3. There a couple builds/tactics that accomplish this already in the game that you can try out.

Shout Heal Warrior

Healing Engineer (med kit or flamethrower+edf+reaper vampiric aura)

Healing Elementalist

Sorry, but when we picked our characters classes, we were not told that they would be changed to only fit specific roles. I have a good 4k hours on my Ranger and now it’s just a crafter only.
I will never play a Ranger as a healer, ever. We should have been offered a level 80 character replacement as a minimum when this was done. Ranger as it was used, was destroyed.

Crysto.7089:

1. Heal support is not required for anything in the game, including raids. You have other options wherever a fully heal focused character would be used. You have the option of playing it, yes, but then you only have yourself to blame if you play it and don’t enjoy it.

2. Your proposed changes seem to mainly remove skill/strategy from the healing equation. I suppose that would mean “smoother” in the sense that it becomes idiot-proof when every heal becomes “wash the pain away” and warrior shouts, but it also becomes much less rewarding mechanically speaking and would require a severe reduction in numbers.

3. There a couple builds/tactics that accomplish this already in the game that you can try out.

Shout Heal Warrior

Healing Engineer (med kit or flamethrower+edf+reaper vampiric aura)

Healing Elementalist

Well the devs wanted healing to be required, so we have more heal support. Guess this all means we need to make it actually required since the devs didn’t hit the target the first time…

The topic here is the clunky and awkward heal role designs. Yes, things could be smoother for sure. Idiot proof these healing styles are not, all you’re doing is looking at it from an isolated point of view.

Tumult.2578:

Sorry, but when we picked our characters classes, we were not told that they would be changed to only fit specific roles. I have a good 4k hours on my Ranger and now it’s just a crafter only.
I will never play a Ranger as a healer, ever. We should have been offered a level 80 character replacement as a minimum when this was done. Ranger as it was used, was destroyed.

This tells me you didn’t bother to read the op.

No, it tells you that while I agree with the OP’s many statements on healing and how it has changed, it does not address the simple fact that many of us now have level 80 healers, not geared for healing, that we never wanted.

I want a real support. I want a class that only throws out boons, cures conditions, no real healing but increased rally. I think it would be fun to have a class that does no actual damage, but maintains the status quo of the group in terms of kill speed.

Tumult.2578:

No, it tells you that while I agree with the OP’s many statements on healing and how it has changed, it does not address the simple fact that many of us now have level 80 healers, not geared for healing, that we never wanted.

Well you didn’t state that.

Your last post assumes it changes core classes and it doesn’t… We are getting future elites with new weapons and new trait lines and new skills… to form different roles and fill gaps in combat style. You are also confusing a “for example” of the different styles of healing, that’s not a precise wishlist. Just something I threw out there to make a point, but the basic ideas could be fleshed out so its more sensible… Theory crafting mostly.

Well we have more heal specs so let’s make them better because they are not going away.

Healing is weak thats why / end of

I personally enjoy the build diversity. I have 80 full zerks, I have level 80 full heals, I have level 80 full condis and each play their roles really well. I like the fact I can build a character to support and/or survive or deal the most damage. If people don’t think this can be done, you’ve not tried hard enough.