Guild Wars 2

tolunart.2095:

BurnedToast.3781:

The whole game is structured in such a way that if you don’t force yourself to play all the time you might as well never play.

If you don’t WANT to play, what’s the point of forcing yourself to play? If you want to play, you don’t need to force yourself to play.

I don’t understand the compulsion to play a game you don’t like. So what if you don’t experience the entire storyline… watch a playthrough of the dungeon on YouTube or something if you’re curious, but don’t want to play the game for a while.

The LS chapters are getting better, but they still aren’t going to win any awards for great writing… you literally will lose nothing by taking a break, but forcing yourself to play will just result in becoming burnt out on the game in general that much sooner.

I do want to play, I just don’t want to play ALL THE TIME.

I like to play for a few days a week, then take a week or two off, then play some more. For example, I finished the first half of fire and flame this way, but I missed the second half (I think I had 1 day to finish everything when I started playing again).

I’d also like to get ascended jewelry but since the only way to get some of it is from dailies… it’s going to be YEARS before I have enough tokens, because I can’t ever get more tokens when I do play…

Anet has basically said to me “play when we want you to play, or miss out on everything”. It’s offputting and I find myself logging in less and less because I know I’m never going to get to finish anything, ever.

Just saying “watch a youtube video” is…. well, let’s just say it’s not fun for me that way.

I don’t think you can stress this enough. People seem to think that they need to be constantly playing, and if the game can’t supply the content to meet their huge demands, that they should leave and never come back. Finished all the stuff you want to? Good on you, go do something else. Work out, read a book, go camping, when you come back there will probably be new stuff for you to do.

BurnedToast.3781:

tolunart.2095:

BurnedToast.3781:

The whole game is structured in such a way that if you don’t force yourself to play all the time you might as well never play.

If you don’t WANT to play, what’s the point of forcing yourself to play? If you want to play, you don’t need to force yourself to play.

I don’t understand the compulsion to play a game you don’t like. So what if you don’t experience the entire storyline… watch a playthrough of the dungeon on YouTube or something if you’re curious, but don’t want to play the game for a while.

The LS chapters are getting better, but they still aren’t going to win any awards for great writing… you literally will lose nothing by taking a break, but forcing yourself to play will just result in becoming burnt out on the game in general that much sooner.

I do want to play, I just don’t want to play ALL THE TIME.

I like to play for a few days a week, then take a week or two off, then play some more. For example, I finished the first half of fire and flame this way, but I missed the second half (I think I had 1 day to finish everything when I started playing again).

I’d also like to get ascended jewelry but since the only way to get some of it is from dailies… it’s going to be YEARS before I have enough tokens, because I can’t ever get more tokens when I do play…

Anet has basically said to me “play when we want you to play, or miss out on everything”. It’s offputting and I find myself logging in less and less because I know I’m never going to get to finish anything, ever.

Just saying “watch a youtube video” is…. well, let’s just say it’s not fun for me that way.

So, you want to play and you have goals you want to work towards, but the way you play the game doesn’t match your goals, so your response is to blame Anet and stop playing?

Anet is not the problem.

tolunart.2095:

So, you want to play and you have goals you want to work towards, but the way you play the game doesn’t match your goals, so your response is to blame Anet and stop playing?

Ah, but the way he wants to play does match the original stated design of the game. Not having to play everyday is also supposed to be one of the main points of subscriptionless games. As far as his way of playing goes, his goals should be reasonable in this game. They aren’t, because “someone” did change the rules after the game shipped.

Firstly, I think people have missed a part of the point … I never said people shouldn’t voice their opinions on the forums. Read the OP again – NEVER did I say people can’t have an opinion. In fact, I believe I said that people SHOULD post their opinions.

I also share many of the frustrations about the way ANet have set up some of their LS lines that encourage this feeling of being “forced” to log in to get something I want out of the game. @BurnedToast – it will also take me a very, very long time to get any ascended gear. I have limited time and I can’t often do dailies, let alone monthlies or run fractals/dungeons etc. So believe me, I can understand your point.

My point is simply this. What really happens if you DO miss out? I didn’t start playing at launch, and I missed out on some LS stuff. Sure, sometimes I think “gee, wouldn’t it have been great to get a Fused weapon skin”? And yes, yes, I’d love one. I can’t deny that should they decide to bring them back, I’d be first in line. But at the same time, I HAVEN’T really missed anything much. I missed a skin and some achievements.

But ultimately, nothing that’s core to my experience of the game.

And that’s my only point. Because of the way ANet have made things run in GW2, taking a break now and then really doesn’t punish you the way taking a break would in many other MMOs. I am WARY of the direction they went in with ascended gear, true. But I believe they said officially that this was it in terms of gear progression because it turned out so unpopular.

@Killcannon – can you clarify your post? I’m not sure how I’m working against ANet by encouraging people to take a break if it’s needed for their enjoyment of the game.

I can’t imagine anyone who would feel the need to force themselves to log into the game if they don’t want to. If I don’t want to play I just don’t. End of. it’s not like im missing out on anything

I kinda understand the pressure to log in, even in a game like this. I’ve been on break now more months than I’ve regularly played the game though. I’m a competent player, and an avid WvWer, but by the numbers I “only” have 500 hours in and “only” have ~2000 achievements. At a glance, I probably don’t look very hardcore.

You know what though? None of that matters. If your guild judges you by your kitten, and that’s not your bag, you’re in the wrong guild. It kind of sucks being behind on achievements now that you are being rewarded for them, but it only sucks a little. If not getting Hellfire skin any time soon is seriously impacting your life, you seriously need to reexamine your priorities.

Well, the great thing about achievement points is that you know that all the prizes ARE there to get and will stick around. It might take you longer than others, but there’s absolutely nothing really standing in your way. I have less than 2000, so there’ll be stuff I’ll have to be patient for. But I’m happy knowing they’re not going anywhere or asking me to find people to run through dungeons/fractals with etc.

Side note: my only hope for these achievement points is that you can use them more then once per account, like the HoM rewards.

I’m fairly certain I read that they were usable across all characters, so I’m betting and hoping that ’they’re also reusable.

Well in that case, I have no complaints! Lol. In all seriousness, this is something I am really looking forward to.

Astralporing.1957:

tolunart.2095:

So, you want to play and you have goals you want to work towards, but the way you play the game doesn’t match your goals, so your response is to blame Anet and stop playing?

Ah, but the way he wants to play does match the original stated design of the game. Not having to play everyday is also supposed to be one of the main points of subscriptionless games. As far as his way of playing goes, his goals should be reasonable in this game. They aren’t, because “someone” did change the rules after the game shipped.

In an MMO, change is expected, not avoided. He is blowing things waaaaaay out of proportion. What would happen if you went to the WoW forums and complained you wanted top tier raid gear, but you can only log on for an hour or two twice a month?

Ascended gear was not intended for casual players, and it is useless to casual players. Likewise Legendary weapons – both were created for individuals who put a lot of time into the game. He’s not missing anything by not having them, he’s just jealous of the people who have put in the time and effort to get them.

There’s no reason for Anet to hand loot out like Mardi Gras beads just because someone demands it.

tolunart.2095:

both were created for individuals who put a lot of time into the game

TBH, players who put a lot of time into the game doing mindless, easy content (aka farming, grinding, exploiting) don’t really deserve a reward. This kind of reward exists due to how pay to play MMORPGs work, but GW2 isn’t one of those games.

Rewards should be given for skilled players who can overcome challenging content, not for players willing to endure mindless content (that a bot can do better than a human being, for the records) while only focusing on a reward. People wonder why we have so little challenging content in GW2, but one of the main reasons is the way the playerbase is happy with the mediocrity of rewarding time spent, instead of rewarding skill.

Considering how one of the original goals of ArenaNet, a long time ago, was “skill > time spent”, it’s obvious they have changed for the worse over time.

Unfortunately, for the unskilled masses (like me), a lot of events that require skill also therefore require a lot of time. I can get through a quest GIVEN ENOUGH TIME, even if it is designed for players above my skill level (this is just the nature of most things in life … if things are PURELY skill dependent then ANet would have another issue as it means a lot of their content is gated, which people don’t want). But, if I don’t have the time or the skill, then I get nothing.

I’m not saying this is right or wrong, but just pointing it out as a design dilemma facing the devs. They need to balance the two demands, and it’s obviously difficult.

Actually, the problem here is neither in time required nor in skill. The skill requirements aren’t high, and the time required (7h30min for amulet, if we count one daily as 15 minutes) is also reasonable. The problem lies in how that time has to be used – in the fact that you are forced to parcel it out. That’s what ends you with one month per eq piece grind time – and that’s what ends you with the statement, that if you do not play everyday, you don’t even need to apply, because it’s not for you.
Play only on the wekends? No matter how good a player you might otherwise be, forget about ever gathering enough laurels for anything (single amulet – 15 weeks).

Haha, but you still can do it, I think is the point. It might take you 15 weeks, but people are prepared to put in months and months for a legendary – and at least at the end of the 15 weeks you know that for your laurel you WILL get the amulet, whereas you can’t even say that about a legendary.

Oh, sure, it’s not the most efficient way of doing things, but the point very much is that you can do it if you really want to.

Erasculio.2914:

Considering how one of the original goals of ArenaNet, a long time ago, was “skill > time spent”, it’s obvious they have changed for the worse over time.

It works better in theory than in practice.

Legendary Weapons are supposed to be about a reward for those who are most dedicated to the game – 100% map completion, badges from WvWvW, killing mobs until the precursor drops (or crafting rares and tossing them into the MF, etc.), gathering stacks of materials and dungeon tokens, etc.

Ascended gear is supposed to come from dedicated play in “hardcore” content like upper levels of Fractals and supports moving up in those same Fractals to do harder content.

But then human nature comes into play. If they had thought of the weapon ticket system before launch, precursor weapons would probably be account bound. The reasoning behind allowing them on the TP was probably something like, what if a player wants Dawn and gets Dusk instead? He can sell it to someone who wants Dusk and buy Dawn from the TP.

For many people, there is not such thing as “enough.” Legendaries are in the game, therefore they must have them. Not just Twilight, but Eternity. Not just Frostfang but Incinerator too – how could you stand to hold a lesser weapon in your off hand?

And if Ascended gear is going to be “best in slot,” then there are people who simply must have them, and will not be satisfied with exotics. But the compulsion to have them doesn’t necessarily involve a willingness to do what is required to get them. They are the best, so the player who must have the best deserves them, and will complain until he gets them.

If that means maxing out your credit card to buy Eternity, so be it. The laurel system, however, and to a lesser extent guild commissions and such, are a different matter. You can’t simply buy more laurels, so this kind of person sees them as inherently unfair – they separate him from his BIS gear and the only way to get them is to do the work necessary to get them.

These systems aren’t perfect, and in fact they are being reevaluated and improved constantly. Complaining that it will take YEARS to reach your goal is mistaken and shortsighted at best. The goals were intended to someone much more invested in the game, and if you’re not so invested, what do you need these things for, anyway? If they are necessary to enjoy the game, then Anet will make them more easily obtainable because they don’t want to arbitrarily lock people out of important content. Optional content is another matter.

tolunart.2095:

Complaining that it will take YEARS to reach your goal is mistaken and shortsighted at best. The goals were intended to someone much more invested in the game

And why would ArenaNet want to reward people who play more time, as opposed to more skilled players? That makes sense in a pay to play MMO, for obvious reasons, but in GW2, it doesn’t.

Astralporing.1957:

Play only on the wekends? No matter how good a player you might otherwise be, forget about ever gathering enough laurels for anything (single amulet – 15 weeks).

Less than four months? It may seem like forever when your 16, but it’s a semester of college – just a fraction of the time it takes to get a bachelor’s degree. Long-term goals are not a bad thing, it’s just that the instant gratification generation seems to think they should be handed everything right now.

Erasculio.2914:

tolunart.2095:

Complaining that it will take YEARS to reach your goal is mistaken and shortsighted at best. The goals were intended to someone much more invested in the game

And why would ArenaNet want to reward people who play more time, as opposed to more skilled players? That makes sense in a pay to play MMO, for obvious reasons, but in GW2, it doesn’t.

MMOs are not about skill.

Stand in front of a dragon, press 1, go back to watching tv. Five minutes later, collect your loot.

tolunart.2095:

MMOs are not about skill.

Stand in front of a dragon, press 1, go back to watching tv. Five minutes later, collect your loot.

As your example shows, MMORPGs are more often than not mediocre games. I don’t care about other MMOs… Why would Guild Wars 2 cater to time spent instead of skill? Just to be more of the same?

Erasculio.2914:

tolunart.2095:

MMOs are not about skill.

Stand in front of a dragon, press 1, go back to watching tv. Five minutes later, collect your loot.

As your example shows, MMORPGs are more often than not mediocre games. I don’t care about other MMOs… Why would Guild Wars 2 cater to time spent instead of skill? Just to be more of the same?

I think because they realise that the majority of their playerbase is likely to get somewhere with time, but maybe not with skill? I’m not saying that to be rude about the players (goodness knows I’m not one of the skilled), but there are a LOT of the more casual/less experienced/less skilled players who enjoy GW2, and they’d rather know that with time, they can achieve something, whereas if it’s purely dependent on skill, they might not bother.

I don’t really know – just a suggestion. A major selling point of GW2 is its accessibility. If they start rewarding skill alone then they’d lose that.

Also, we’re wandering OT (partly may fault as well, I agree). :p

CrossedHorse.4261:

I think because they realise that the majority of their playerbase is likely to get somewhere with time, but maybe not with skill?

The question then is – is ArenaNet catering to time spent more than skill because most of their players have more free time than skill? Or do most Guild Wars 2 players have more time than skill because that’s the kind of player ArenaNet is catering to?

Erasculio.2914:

tolunart.2095:

MMOs are not about skill.

Stand in front of a dragon, press 1, go back to watching tv. Five minutes later, collect your loot.

As your example shows, MMORPGs are more often than not mediocre games. I don’t care about other MMOs… Why would Guild Wars 2 cater to time spent instead of skill? Just to be more of the same?

Marketing hype is not reality. GW2 is aimed squarely at the casual player, whose place on the time/money/skill spectrum is squarely in the time/money intersection.

Erasculio.2914:

CrossedHorse.4261:

I think because they realise that the majority of their playerbase is likely to get somewhere with time, but maybe not with skill?

The question then is – is ArenaNet catering to time spent more than skill because most of their players have more free time than skill? Or do most Guild Wars 2 players have more time than skill because that’s the kind of player ArenaNet is catering to?

Hmm, probably the latter. I think that even though they marketed a game that should in ways appeal to a large playerbase, I do think that if you go through it there’s more to appeal to the casual player with more time etc … if you’re going to make the changes to such a convention-tied genre, you sure need to pick your market.

But those people will take time to really come in huge numbers as most of them probably decided long ago that MMOs weren’t for them and so don’t even check the news for ones like GW2 to crop up. I mean, a three-year build up and I hear about it nearly a year after it is released? yeah, they didn’t manage to get their marketing to the right market, imo.

tolunart.2095:

Astralporing.1957:

tolunart.2095:

So, you want to play and you have goals you want to work towards, but the way you play the game doesn’t match your goals, so your response is to blame Anet and stop playing?

Ah, but the way he wants to play does match the original stated design of the game. Not having to play everyday is also supposed to be one of the main points of subscriptionless games. As far as his way of playing goes, his goals should be reasonable in this game. They aren’t, because “someone” did change the rules after the game shipped.

In an MMO, change is expected, not avoided. He is blowing things waaaaaay out of proportion. What would happen if you went to the WoW forums and complained you wanted top tier raid gear, but you can only log on for an hour or two twice a month?

Ascended gear was not intended for casual players, and it is useless to casual players. Likewise Legendary weapons – both were created for individuals who put a lot of time into the game. He’s not missing anything by not having them, he’s just jealous of the people who have put in the time and effort to get them.

There’s no reason for Anet to hand loot out like Mardi Gras beads just because someone demands it.

Ascended gear not intended for casual players? Google vertical progression and then, perhaps, we can talk reasonably. Gear with higher stats not useful to casual players? Do you really believe that?

They didn’t add “Ascended gear” so much as they added vertical progression to the game. Ascended gear is simply its implementation. And, since it’s vertical and since it progresses there will be more pieces, and then more pieces, over time. You do realize that the laurels given in dailies were added to the game precisely so that all players, whether casual or hardcore, could keep up with vertical progression?

I do agree that there is no reason for Anet to hand out loot like Mardi Gras beads simply because people demand it. That’s not how games work. Loot should be a reward for play; not play that the play police have determined is skillful, but simply play. It’s part of why we play games in the first place. We play because it’s fun.

Raine.1394:

Ascended gear not intended for casual players? Google vertical progression and then, perhaps, we can talk reasonably. Gear with higher stats not useful to casual players? Do you really believe that?

Ascended gear was intended for use in higher level Fractal dungeons, which requires a heavy commitment to playing through low level Fractal dungeons – therefore, the items were not intended for casual players.

Useful as a stat boost is not the same as being intended for them. The intention of Ascended gear was to give hardcore players something to work for. Laurels will come to everyone in time, if someone wants to get laurels faster, they have to make a commitment to logging in more often – and therefore not play so casually.

Ascended gear was not intended for the casual player. I don’t run Fractal dungeons and I don’t have any Ascended gear. It doesn’t make a bit of difference to me and I still enjoy playing the game just fine, thanx.

tolunart.2095:

Raine.1394:

Ascended gear not intended for casual players? Google vertical progression and then, perhaps, we can talk reasonably. Gear with higher stats not useful to casual players? Do you really believe that?

Ascended gear was intended for use in higher level Fractal dungeons, which requires a heavy commitment to playing through low level Fractal dungeons – therefore, the items were not intended for casual players.

Useful as a stat boost is not the same as being intended for them. The intention of Ascended gear was to give hardcore players something to work for. Laurels will come to everyone in time, if someone wants to get laurels faster, they have to make a commitment to logging in more often – and therefore not play so casually.

Ascended gear was not intended for the casual player. I don’t run Fractal dungeons and I don’t have any Ascended gear. It doesn’t make a bit of difference to me and I still enjoy playing the game just fine, thanx.

Do you have a link from Anet on their intentions for Ascended gear? I mean that it’s intended for high level fractals only and not for casual players? I’ve read all their blog posts and statements on external sites and seem to have missed it.

tolunart.2095:

Astralporing.1957:

Play only on the wekends? No matter how good a player you might otherwise be, forget about ever gathering enough laurels for anything (single amulet – 15 weeks).

Less than four months? It may seem like forever when your 16, but it’s a semester of college – just a fraction of the time it takes to get a bachelor’s degree. Long-term goals are not a bad thing, it’s just that the instant gratification generation seems to think they should be handed everything right now.

…that’s one item. in a set of 13 (+ weapons). When the current stated strategy is that there will be both level cap increases and future gear progression.

That’s not a long-term goal. That’s running straight at the cliff ahead hoping they’ll build a bridge before you’ll get there.

Also, at 16 i was way, way more tolerant of lenghty grind (or would have been if there were any MMO’s then).

Raine.1394:

Do you have a link from Anet on their intentions for Ascended gear? I mean that it’s intended for high level fractals only and not for casual players? I’ve read all their blog posts and statements on external sites and seem to have missed it.

Because that’s not true. At the Chris Whiteside’s AMA shortly after they were introduced the devs clearly said that putting them in fractals only and hard to access was a mistake they are going to correct in the future, and that they were supposed to be accessible throughout many different avenues from the very beginning.

Well, they have to accomplish that yet, of course.

Raine.1394:

Do you have a link from Anet on their intentions for Ascended gear? I mean that it’s intended for high level fractals only and not for casual players? I’ve read all their blog posts and statements on external sites and seem to have missed it.

I’m psychic, I read it in Colin’s mind back when they first introduced them.

Well, now that with the update landing today we can craft ascended gear (or at least gear with the same stats even if it looks different), I’d be inclined to agree that originally it seems that the gear was intended for the more hardcore audience. Of course, casuals CAN run fractals, but I’d be willing to argue that the majority don’t – or at least not enough to really obtain the gear.

But now, provided you have a means of getting the quartz crystals, ascended gear is available to all. Happy day! My only concern is whether or not this heralds the introduction of NEW gear, with even higher stats somewhere down the line. I hope not, but I guess we’ll see.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Well, now that with the update landing today we can craft ascended gear (or at least gear with the same stats even if it looks different)

Can we? Celestial stat gear we get seems to be exotic tier, not ascended. Armor equivalent to karka shell accessory. Ascended tier celestial eq will be stronger.

Astralporing.1957:

CrossedHorse.4261:

Well, now that with the update landing today we can craft ascended gear (or at least gear with the same stats even if it looks different)

Can we? Celestial stat gear we get seems to be exotic tier, not ascended. Armor equivalent to karka shell accessory. Ascended tier celestial eq will be stronger.

Hmm. I think it is exotic in tier, but the +X to all stats is an ascended gear thing, so maybe they just couldn’t outright call it ascended because that is fractal specific. But this is a way of letting more casual players/players who don’t run fractals have the similar increase in stats.

I hadn’t thought about ascended celestial armour though … not sure what that will be. Sigh. Maybe it’s just the start of the long and disappointing road to the gear grind then. I hope not.

EDIT: I take it back. I’ve just seen another thread where it suggests that the “previously only found on ascended” line in the devs news thread refers to the fact that, with the exception of the amulet, the only celestial gear in the game was ascended tier. Now it’s available as exotic tier. So looks like the gear will have normal exotic stats.

Well, now I’m less excited about it, and even less motivated to grind away to get the crystals, charge the crystals over 5 days etc … I have to admit it, I’m disappointed. However, it does mean that I no longer have any problems at all about missing any of the Bazaar temp story content.

I won’t be grinding crystals. They’ll become more and more just like my laurels.
And now … with +1 magic find and +2 gold find I will be un stop able !
Mwahahahahaaaaa.
Seriously, I will craft one set for one character for sure. Most likely my Elementalist.
A new celectial look would have been awesome, but oh well.

Edit: celectial? soon coming with an s to a crafter near you.

I started playing at launch and left after a about a month. I originally came to the game for the promise of WvW, but found it quite disappointing. I returned about two months ago, and for a while had fun. However, there were just too many basic choices made regarding the games design that left it feeling flat for me. I have since started playing another game that recently went F2P and have found it to be MUCH more to my liking. I haven’t felt a “need” to log in (or a desire) in a couple of weeks now and, frankly, do not see that changing without a fairly major shift in thinking/design in ANets part. As of now the game is un-installed, though I will continue to read the forums in the hope something changes (it is a beautiful game after all, just a shame the mechanics are so one dimensional).