Please stop once-per-day content
Galen Gray – “Acquisition was designed to take est 15 days each”
Dog – “Time gated content discriminates against players who can’t play daily”
And they will continue to talk past each other till the end of time.
Lesson here, when you introduce new items that you want acquisition take time, have both a time-gated currency and a random drop from every critter currency (like kite fortune scraps). Then you make the items cost either X time gated currency or y drop based currency. Toss in the possibility to convert one into the other at some unfriendly but better than nothing rate and everybody’s catered to.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
Vayne.8563
Okay, I’m not getting this it takes longer for casual players to get this stuff argument.Let’s say it takes me 30 days to get something. It takes a casual player the same 30 days to get it. That is to say, the days that player is not playing don’t count, because they’re not playing.
So it takes me 30 days of game time to get the stuff, same as them.
The days they’re not playing, they’re not playing. It’s the same with how much money I earn.
If I get X money per day then I"ll have more money then them after 30 days. But not necessarily more money after they’ve played for 30 days.
Usually i find myself to agree with you, but not this time.
we all have differnt time schedule, i sure that many people like me cannot play every day, and i mean every single day of my life.
usually my duties take me some very intensive day where altho icould connect to comple those ridiculus daily, i’d rather prefere to die on my bed.
on the other hand on saturdayb usually is full time play.
then i do play 12 hrsand get 1 laurel, 1cristal and 1 teddy bear whatsoever.
mister x logs in each day for 30 mins top, for a total of 3.5hr and get 7 times of what i had.
ya know when mmo were p2p u felt you must play to give value to money spent and was bad, now we did an improvement but the resoults are the same, i must play every single day or i cannot keep up.
Behellagh.1468
Galen Gray – “Acquisition was designed to take est 15 days each”
Dog – “Time gated content discriminates against players who can’t play daily”And they will continue to talk past each other till the end of time.
Lesson here, when you introduce new items that you want acquisition take time, have both a time-gated currency and a random drop from every critter currency (like kite fortune scraps). Then you make the items cost either X time gated currency or y drop based currency. Toss in the possibility to convert one into the other at some unfriendly but better than nothing rate and everybody’s catered to.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
be carefull dude they actually did this, or similar, drop shining new wings or well you can still grind 100K zaithaffy craps. lol
told ya be carefull on what you wish, bad djin is behind the corner
They clearly want ascended gear to take 15 days at least to earn.
Before time-gated mechanisms in games not a single designer talked about getting items in terms of days. It’s always been simply effort. Do X to get item Y. Not do insubstantial thing X for every day to get item Y after Z days.
They’re wrong in artificially dragging out content. Let’s not forget that this assumption of theirs is worth questioning.
They’re not talking days now either but each requirement defines that in various ways.
A piece of T3 cultural armor costing 20g doesnt directly state that said piece is meant to take 10 days to earn but for most people it will take 10 days to earn 20g either way.
Every requirement for a reward be it mats required to craft, gold, karma etc… is meant to require a certain play time before you get given said reward. Nothing is stopping Arenanet from pricing that 20g piece to 5c if they wanted to. Its not like a manufacturer has to be paid for the materials used or labor involved in creating said item. In games rewards are all valued based on item required to acquire them its just that time is hidden in creative ways be it requirements, drop rate, skill required, time locks etc…
They clearly want ascended gear to take 15 days at least to earn.
Before time-gated mechanisms in games not a single designer talked about getting items in terms of days. It’s always been simply effort. Do X to get item Y. Not do insubstantial thing X for every day to get item Y after Z days.
They’re wrong in artificially dragging out content. Let’s not forget that this assumption of theirs is worth questioning.
and i think the most obvious reason is money
keep people logging in and you have higher chance to sell on gemstore
They’re not talking days now either but each requirement defines that in various ways.
A piece of T3 cultural armor costing 20g doesnt directly state that said piece is meant to take 10 days to earn but for most people it will take 10 days to earn 20g either way
Of course, because effort is confounded with time: all actions take time to perform. But that is not to say that the time aspect of it is what drives the intention behind it.
The value of an item is in part determined by how hard it is to get, and usually this is a combination of effort and time. With the time-gated content it is just time, no effort, and therefore: wrong.
Get rid of time-gated content, make stuff effortful (and hopefully fun) to get, and don’t care that some people go all psycho on it and get it within a few days. What’s wrong with that approach?
and i think the most obvious reason is money
keep people logging in and you have higher chance to sell on gemstore
I’m naive enough to believe this is not their main motivation. I think they just want to give people stuff to strive for that will keep them busy for a long time, and also to level the playing ground between hardcore players and casuals.
They clearly want ascended gear to take 15 days at least to earn.
Yes, i know. This is exactly what i disagree with. As long as the top stat gear is hard/takes a long time to get, the vertical progress is a problem. The more time gates there are, the worse the situation is.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
They clearly want ascended gear to take 15 days at least to earn.
Before time-gated mechanisms in games not a single designer talked about getting items in terms of days. It’s always been simply effort. Do X to get item Y. Not do insubstantial thing X for every day to get item Y after Z days.
They’re wrong in artificially dragging out content. Let’s not forget that this assumption of theirs is worth questioning.
and i think the most obvious reason is money
keep people logging in and you have higher chance to sell on gemstore
People keep saying this but no one explained to me how 20 days worth of gold make you log in less then 20 days worth of dailies.
If anything, if you want to argue the more you log in the more chances you have to spend money in the gemstore wouldnt requiring 20 days worth of gold make it much more likely to use the cash shop?
for one you can just buy yourself out of those 20 days using gems → gold conversion but even forgetting that
you can finish 20 days worth of dailies in a about 15 hrs
20 days worth of gold on the other hand could take as long as 160 hrs if they calculate a day worth of gold as 8 hrs of game play.
Isnt someone who’s playing for 8hrs a day for 20 days be much more likely to spend money on the cash shop that another who barely logs in for 30 minutes a day for 20 days?
They’re not talking days now either but each requirement defines that in various ways.
A piece of T3 cultural armor costing 20g doesnt directly state that said piece is meant to take 10 days to earn but for most people it will take 10 days to earn 20g either way
Of course, because effort is confounded with time: all actions take time to perform. But that is not to say that the time aspect of it is what drives the intention behind it.
The value of an item is in part determined by how hard it is to get, and usually this is a combination of effort and time. With the time-gated content it is just time, no effort, and therefore: wrong.
Get rid of time-gated content, make stuff effortful (and hopefully fun) to get, and don’t care that some people go all psycho on it and get it within a few days. What’s wrong with that approach?
Nothing, I completely agree 100% with all you said. My only issue is can you imagine any thing you could put in a game thakittens combined effort-time is at least 15 days and which is also fun to play? Personally I cannot. When I look at other games, its either farm the same raid (which I hate and wouldnt find fun) or farm a ton of mats which is also not fun. Do you have any suggestions?
and i think the most obvious reason is money
keep people logging in and you have higher chance to sell on gemstoreI’m naive enough to believe this is not their main motivation. I think they just want to give people stuff to strive for that will keep them busy for a long time, and also to level the playing ground between hardcore players and casuals.
Your not naive, the for gem shop reason just doesnt add up in my opinion.
You’re not going to spend real money in the gem shop just because you logged on for 30 minutes to finish off your daily (if you were not going to log on at all on a particular day and logged just to finish of your daily its safe to assume you’re not going to stick around beyond finishing off that daily)
If their intention was to have you spent money in the gem shop the daily system actually hurts them in that regard. What would work beautifully is have a vendor sell them for gold or craft-able for non-time gated mats
If they price each piece at say 60g … 4g per day x 15 days
or if they make it craft-able and require materials that collectively cost 60g
how many people who find it hard to wait 15 days to get a single piece will get the credit card and change that 15 days into $24 ?
Yep no doubt in my mind that if their motivation was make money from the cash shop, removing the timegate would make them wayyyyy more money then what people logging in just to finish off a daily can ever hope of make them.
Unless I am missing some angle of course. If so please let me know.
Nothing, I completely agree 100% with all you said. My only issue is can you imagine any thing you could put in a game thakittens combined effort-time is at least 15 days and which is also fun to play? Personally I cannot. When I look at other games, its either farm the same raid (which I hate and wouldnt find fun) or farm a ton of mats which is also not fun. Do you have any suggestions?
I think Guild Wars 2 is perfectly suited to deal with this issue. They have a variety of activities that reward you; specifically with gold. You can do dungeon runs, run events, do WvW, sell your loot and rare finds, get friends to help you with gold, etc. After a while you can then buy the item you want, all the while having had fun getting that gold.
Usually there are some activities in the game that reward you with the most gold (CoF I guess) and then some people are drawn to that to get the item as quickly as possible but perhaps having less fun. This is just nearly impossible to solve and I don’t think it’s necessary to solve.
Although I think gold is great, I guess it is a bit less fun to just buy an item. Perhaps some kind of scavenger hunt type of activity is more fun.
Nothing, I completely agree 100% with all you said. My only issue is can you imagine any thing you could put in a game thakittens combined effort-time is at least 15 days and which is also fun to play? Personally I cannot. When I look at other games, its either farm the same raid (which I hate and wouldnt find fun) or farm a ton of mats which is also not fun. Do you have any suggestions?
I think Guild Wars 2 is perfectly suited to deal with this issue. They have a variety of activities that reward you; specifically with gold. You can do dungeon runs, run events, do WvW, sell your loot and rare finds, get friends to help you with gold, etc. After a while you can then buy the item you want, all the while having had fun getting that gold.
Usually there are some activities in the game that reward you with the most gold (CoF I guess) and then some people are drawn to that to get the item as quickly as possible but perhaps having less fun. This is just nearly impossible to solve and I don’t think it’s necessary to solve.
Although I think gold is great, I guess it is a bit less fun to just buy an item. Perhaps some kind of scavenger hunt type of activity is more fun.
Again conceptually I agree with you 100% even 200% here there is no doubt that one thing that makes this a great game is you’re free to do anything you love content wise and then use that to get your chosen reward. You’re right it would fit the gw2 phylosofy 100%. Unfortunately it has some problems when you map that to those 15 days.
The biggest problem is you can use your credit card to get as much as you want of it.
If you’re rich enough to pay $300 you can also get a whole ascended gear set in a few minutes rather then in 6 months. This would make matters a lot worst in the end because imagine the outcry of players demanding for a new gear tier and waving the I am entitled to a new set because I paid $300 in a day.
Of course you could go with karma which doesnt have that issue but then we come to issue 2 that is common to both karma and gold. How much gold or karma is 15 days worth? For some players who like to enjoy the game through exploration, engaging in mini games or just roleplaying 15 days is worth a lot less then players who like to farm, play TP, grind dungeons etc… So if you balance it towards hardcore players (and you have to based on those 15 days are most crucial to them) that means that for players who enjoy the game you’ll be charging them 30, 40 perhaps 50 days worth of karma / gold.
Its a complicated problem to solve. I dont envy Arenanet. I do think they came up with the best compromise. Of course an option if you want to a sense of accomplishment is to require more then just laurels, perhaps some item that drops off champion mobs or world bosses. Or some essence of the mist. But I am not sure the problem for many people is really a sense of accomplishment, I think its probably more then wish they could work harder to cut some time off those 15 days.
the for gem shop reason just doesnt add up in my opinion.
…
how many people who find it hard to wait 15 days to get a single piece will get the credit card and change that 15 days into $24 ?
I fully agree.
They clearly want ascended gear to take 15 days at least to earn.
Before time-gated mechanisms in games not a single designer talked about getting items in terms of days. It’s always been simply effort. Do X to get item Y. Not do insubstantial thing X for every day to get item Y after Z days.
They’re wrong in artificially dragging out content. Let’s not forget that this assumption of theirs is worth questioning.
and i think the most obvious reason is money
keep people logging in and you have higher chance to sell on gemstorePeople keep saying this but no one explained to me how 20 days worth of gold make you log in less then 20 days worth of dailies.
If anything, if you want to argue the more you log in the more chances you have to spend money in the gemstore wouldnt requiring 20 days worth of gold make it much more likely to use the cash shop?
for one you can just buy yourself out of those 20 days using gems -> gold conversion but even forgetting that
you can finish 20 days worth of dailies in a about 15 hrs
20 days worth of gold on the other hand could take as long as 160 hrs if they calculate a day worth of gold as 8 hrs of game play.Isnt someone who’s playing for 8hrs a day for 20 days be much more likely to spend money on the cash shop that another who barely logs in for 30 minutes a day for 20 days?
you had it right when you said
If anything, if you want to argue the more you log in the more chances you have to spend money in the gemstore
dailies and laurel system are something to make people come back because they are perceived as being easy and fast to do, with a good reward. gold is not as good at making people come back every day, because many people are tired of farming gold all the time, and anyway there are many people that don’t know or care to farm gold. but the daily they do know, and they know there is a good reward, so they say “i will log in for 15 min to get my laurel.” and this is like the sales in stores. did you think a sale was just to get rid of an item and sell a lot of it? no, the purpose is to get people into the store so they can see other products and maybe they think to themselves that they want to buy a few more items as well. it’s a similar concept with dailies.
Isnt someone who’s playing for 8hrs a day for 20 days be much more likely to spend money on the cash shop that another who barely logs in for 30 minutes a day for 20 days?
this is probably the opposite of the truth. it’s the people who don’t spend so much time in game (but continue to log in) that don’t have sufficient gold for nice items. so it’s them that are most likely to spend real money.
i don’t say that anet are an evil corporation that wants to suck all the money from people, no. however i don’t think we should be naive about their business model. in my opinion they are trying to find a balance between max profits and minimum player unhappiness. these dailies and the living story are “sales” to get people into the game and keep giving people chances to get interested again. an interested person spends money.
Anet wants you to log in at least once per day…its what mmo’s are all about really…so expect more once per day stuff not less…
But in the long run.. and it will only scare people away.
Temporary content / time-gated content is bad game-design. Anet has got many negatives reactions about this every since they started with it. Colin promised to have less but it has only gotten worse so far.
And that ‘long run’ is not so long anymore because they are doing it already for a pretty long time. Starting with the laurels and the temporary content from the living story. I expect that the player-base soon starts dropping because of this but we will see.
I have been active in multiple threads about this and many people complained so they where warned.
Vayne.8563
Okay, I’m not getting this it takes longer for casual players to get this stuff argument.Let’s say it takes me 30 days to get something. It takes a casual player the same 30 days to get it. That is to say, the days that player is not playing don’t count, because they’re not playing.
So it takes me 30 days of game time to get the stuff, same as them.
The days they’re not playing, they’re not playing. It’s the same with how much money I earn.
If I get X money per day then I"ll have more money then them after 30 days. But not necessarily more money after they’ve played for 30 days.
Usually i find myself to agree with you, but not this time.
we all have differnt time schedule, i sure that many people like me cannot play every day, and i mean every single day of my life.
usually my duties take me some very intensive day where altho icould connect to comple those ridiculus daily, i’d rather prefere to die on my bed.
on the other hand on saturdayb usually is full time play.
then i do play 12 hrsand get 1 laurel, 1cristal and 1 teddy bear whatsoever.
mister x logs in each day for 30 mins top, for a total of 3.5hr and get 7 times of what i had.
ya know when mmo were p2p u felt you must play to give value to money spent and was bad, now we did an improvement but the resoults are the same, i must play every single day or i cannot keep up.
My point is, you don’t have to “keep up”, because content isn’t gated based on this.
If I play every day (and I do), I can get an amulet in 30 days (or 20 but I’ll say 30). Now, I’ve spent 30 days of my play time not having an amulet. If you only play 1x per week, it will take you 30 weeks to get an amulet. You’re still only play 30 days without an amulet.
Unless you’re running high level fractals (and if you’re only playing that often, you’re unlikely to do the hard core stuff anyway), you can do everything else in the game.
We have people in our guild who took six months off, came back and play with us. Every dungeon, every dynamic events, WvW, SPvP. You can do it all.
It would be completely different if this were like other games and everyone had moved on and you couldn’t do anything, but that’s not how Anet designed the game.
They clearly want ascended gear to take 15 days at least to earn.
Before time-gated mechanisms in games not a single designer talked about getting items in terms of days. It’s always been simply effort. Do X to get item Y. Not do insubstantial thing X for every day to get item Y after Z days.
They’re wrong in artificially dragging out content. Let’s not forget that this assumption of theirs is worth questioning.
and i think the most obvious reason is money
keep people logging in and you have higher chance to sell on gemstorePeople keep saying this but no one explained to me how 20 days worth of gold make you log in less then 20 days worth of dailies.
If anything, if you want to argue the more you log in the more chances you have to spend money in the gemstore wouldnt requiring 20 days worth of gold make it much more likely to use the cash shop?
for one you can just buy yourself out of those 20 days using gems -> gold conversion but even forgetting that
you can finish 20 days worth of dailies in a about 15 hrs
20 days worth of gold on the other hand could take as long as 160 hrs if they calculate a day worth of gold as 8 hrs of game play.Isnt someone who’s playing for 8hrs a day for 20 days be much more likely to spend money on the cash shop that another who barely logs in for 30 minutes a day for 20 days?
you had it right when you said
If anything, if you want to argue the more you log in the more chances you have to spend money in the gemstore
dailies and laurel system are something to make people come back because they are perceived as being easy and fast to do, with a good reward. gold is not as good at making people come back every day, because many people are tired of farming gold all the time, and anyway there are many people that don’t know or care to farm gold. but the daily they do know, and they know there is a good reward, so they say “i will log in for 15 min to get my laurel.” and this is like the sales in stores. did you think a sale was just to get rid of an item and sell a lot of it? no, the purpose is to get people into the store so they can see other products and maybe they think to themselves that they want to buy a few more items as well. it’s a similar concept with dailies.
Isnt someone who’s playing for 8hrs a day for 20 days be much more likely to spend money on the cash shop that another who barely logs in for 30 minutes a day for 20 days?
this is probably the opposite of the truth. it’s the people who don’t spend so much time in game (but continue to log in) that don’t have sufficient gold for nice items. so it’s them that are most likely to spend real money.
i don’t say that anet are an evil corporation that wants to suck all the money from people, no. however i don’t think we should be naive about their business model. in my opinion they are trying to find a balance between max profits and minimum player unhappiness. these dailies and the living story are “sales” to get people into the game and keep giving people chances to get interested again. an interested person spends money.
Isn’t it bad that you need this sort of tactics to get people to log in in the first place? And many people don’t like to be presumed to do something so eventually people will start logging in less because of this.
However you do hit the mean part of the problem. I have also always linked this sort of bad game-design to a cash-shop focus. Thats the mean reason I don’t play F2P games and did go for GW2 who has supposed to be a B2P game. However as we know they are not working on an expansion and so they are now focusing on the gem-store resulting is a lot of this sort of bad game-design. It’s to bad that Anet went from the perfect payment system to a pretty bad one. It’s destroying the game.
Isn’t it bad that you need this sort of tactics to get people to log in in the first place? And many people don’t like to be presumed to do something so eventually people will start logging in less because of this.
Is it bad? Sure. I mean, it should have people logging in every day without it instead of just cherry-picking for events. You know, like the last two years of GW1 (“Is it special event weekend? No? Not logging in then.”)
I’m curious, could someone give me “the next ten words” about how they’d fix the problem mentioned here? I mean, I can tell we’ve got bright minds on the problem on both sides of the fence. Can we start brainstorming a way to make that fence not exist at all? It’s not like we’re discussing the viability of MF gear, we’re talking about how to get people to log in daily without needing to offer bonus rewards or other time-gating.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Lesson here, when you introduce new items that you want acquisition take time, have both a time-gated currency and a random drop from every critter currency (like kite fortune scraps). Then you make the items cost either X time gated currency or y drop based currency. Toss in the possibility to convert one into the other at some unfriendly but better than nothing rate and everybody’s catered to.
I agree.
I think the easiest solution would be to simply keep dailies as they are, but at the same time not restrict the rewards granted by dailies to them alone.
This way lazy people like Galen can still go on about sitting on their porch and getting their daily welfare checks, while goal oriented people can go about farming for their gear in addition to that.
Ascended rings for example aren’t the worst in the world simply because you have a variety of ways to earn them, rather than just logging on for 5 minutes and then leaving.
Of course, the infinitely wise and brilliant Galen will swoop in and share this pile of crap with everyone:
- ascended gear has to last so they dont have to introduce a new tier and alienate a big part of their fan base
Which of course is completely wrong, as it has already been touched up on in the thread that the game was originally advertised as not having vertical progression in the first place. I, and I’m sure many other people were drawn to this and were happy about it and don’t want ascended gear to exist at all.
“Please, you can look down on people without having to be physically above them.
As an asura, I do this all the time.”
As an asura, I do this all the time.”
(edited by Dog.1472)
weeklies>dailies
why dailies, I got a life and shiz, but I don’t want to miss out on daily rewards either…..
this “you have to log on everyday to be competitive”, its so old school and like 2006, seriously A-net…….
They clearly want ascended gear to take 15 days at least to earn.
Before time-gated mechanisms in games not a single designer talked about getting items in terms of days. It’s always been simply effort. Do X to get item Y. Not do insubstantial thing X for every day to get item Y after Z days.
They’re wrong in artificially dragging out content. Let’s not forget that this assumption of theirs is worth questioning.
and i think the most obvious reason is money
keep people logging in and you have higher chance to sell on gemstorePeople keep saying this but no one explained to me how 20 days worth of gold make you log in less then 20 days worth of dailies.
If anything, if you want to argue the more you log in the more chances you have to spend money in the gemstore wouldnt requiring 20 days worth of gold make it much more likely to use the cash shop?
for one you can just buy yourself out of those 20 days using gems -> gold conversion but even forgetting that
you can finish 20 days worth of dailies in a about 15 hrs
20 days worth of gold on the other hand could take as long as 160 hrs if they calculate a day worth of gold as 8 hrs of game play.Isnt someone who’s playing for 8hrs a day for 20 days be much more likely to spend money on the cash shop that another who barely logs in for 30 minutes a day for 20 days?
you had it right when you said
If anything, if you want to argue the more you log in the more chances you have to spend money in the gemstore
dailies and laurel system are something to make people come back because they are perceived as being easy and fast to do, with a good reward. gold is not as good at making people come back every day, because many people are tired of farming gold all the time, and anyway there are many people that don’t know or care to farm gold. but the daily they do know, and they know there is a good reward, so they say “i will log in for 15 min to get my laurel.” and this is like the sales in stores. did you think a sale was just to get rid of an item and sell a lot of it? no, the purpose is to get people into the store so they can see other products and maybe they think to themselves that they want to buy a few more items as well. it’s a similar concept with dailies.
Isnt someone who’s playing for 8hrs a day for 20 days be much more likely to spend money on the cash shop that another who barely logs in for 30 minutes a day for 20 days?
this is probably the opposite of the truth. it’s the people who don’t spend so much time in game (but continue to log in) that don’t have sufficient gold for nice items. so it’s them that are most likely to spend real money.
i don’t say that anet are an evil corporation that wants to suck all the money from people, no. however i don’t think we should be naive about their business model. in my opinion they are trying to find a balance between max profits and minimum player unhappiness. these dailies and the living story are “sales” to get people into the game and keep giving people chances to get interested again. an interested person spends money.
Isn’t it bad that you need this sort of tactics to get people to log in in the first place? And many people don’t like to be presumed to do something so eventually people will start logging in less because of this.
However you do hit the mean part of the problem. I have also always linked this sort of bad game-design to a cash-shop focus. Thats the mean reason I don’t play F2P games and did go for GW2 who has supposed to be a B2P game. However as we know they are not working on an expansion and so they are now focusing on the gem-store resulting is a lot of this sort of bad game-design. It’s to bad that Anet went from the perfect payment system to a pretty bad one. It’s destroying the game.
I don’t think any game will have enough people that keep logging in without actually having a reason to log in…at least over the long term. No matter how fun a game is, there will be die hard fans and people who just play. The die hard fans, they’re going to log in no matter what.
But even games like WoW with all their playerbase, still needs to resort to tactics to get people to log in. In WoW’s case dailies. And they still have 8.3 million subscribers. And yes, some people do hate that they have to log in.
But in Guild Wars 2, you don’t really have to log in to be competitive, at least not in the way of other games. With the exception of high level fractals, which only a small percentage of the playerbase do (at least I’m pretty sure that’s the case), you can do anything. We have people who took a six month break from the game, and ran Arah explorable with them. Try that with other MMOs.
We have people who took a six month break from the game, and ran Arah explorable with them. Try that with other MMOs.
How many MMOs can you not take a break from and come back to do the lower tier instanced content that was present at launch ?
I have not encountered even one such.
That said, you are correct, as of now at least, about the relatively low impact of gear progression in GW2.
Something to keep in mind is that the whole, “keeping up,” aspect that has been brought up a few times in this thread is quite real even if the difference does not seem all that great to some.
I personally, as someone who does not have time to play every day but who may have several hours available when I do play, believe that gating rewards to once per day is a poor decision. Telling me that my seven hours of play time is not as deserving of reward as someone else’s seven hours of play time makes it difficult to justify contributing to the game financially. If Joe 1 hour per day is the one who gets the rewards then let him pick up the slack for my gem purchases.
A weekly model is more player friendly (as in, you are limited to doing a task 7 times in a week rather than 1 per day). Players that do play everyday can space out the tasks once per day if they choose, or get them out of the way at the start of the week so they can get on to other things. Players who are busy during the week but can set aside a number of hours in there days off have the chance to “catch up”, so to speak – they might not get all 7 done, but they have the chance too and they’ll probably be able to get more done than the 1 or 2 they would with the daily system.
That’s not to say there should be no dailies, they have there place in encouraging daily log ins. However, time gates should not be only daily – harder group content like dungeons make sense on a weekly model. Time gating has its purpose, but I think it would be good for anet to move away from the all daily model to a more diverse model of daily/weekly/ monthly rewards.
guildless hobo who likes to solo – [x]
How many MMOs can you not take a break from and come back to do the lower tier instanced content that was present at launch ?
I have not encountered even one such.
That said, you are correct, as of now at least, about the relatively low impact of gear progression in GW2.
I’m relatively confused here, what lower-tier instanced content which was present at launch currently can’t be completed by someone gone for a month? Six months? Since November last year . . .?
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
..snip
Honestly I am not trying to be a pain but I really do no see it. If someone logs in the game to finish off the daily quickly so as to not add an extra day to their wait time for a particular reward, they’re not going to stick around once they finish the daily to browse the gem shop and buy some stuff for their character. They’ll likely be in a mad hurry, it takes time to browse the gem shop and choose stuff so why would they do it? If they feel the urge to buy stuff and again I dont see that happening if like you said they feel forced to log in and thus in an angry state for sure. If they feel like buying stuff it makes more sense to me that they would leave it for one of their regular gaming sessions when they have all the time they need to quitely look around and select stuff they like and not doing it at a time when they’re in a hurry and already spent 30 minutes they dont have playing to finish of the daily!
Anet wants you to log in at least once per day…its what mmo’s are all about really…so expect more once per day stuff not less…
But in the long run.. and it will only scare people away.
Temporary content / time-gated content is bad game-design. Anet has got many negatives reactions about this every since they started with it. Colin promised to have less but it has only gotten worse so far.
And that ‘long run’ is not so long anymore because they are doing it already for a pretty long time. Starting with the laurels and the temporary content from the living story. I expect that the player-base soon starts dropping because of this but we will see.
I have been active in multiple threads about this and many people complained so they where warned.
Just as an FYI Colin came out and said that he saw feed back suggesting he wasnt keeping up to his promise, but he pointed out that they needed time after making that statement to finish off what content they had in the pipeline and be able to take that direction. He said the first content in line with his promises will be coming out not the next update but the one after that.
Isn’t it bad that you need this sort of tactics to get people to log in in the first place? And many people don’t like to be presumed to do something so eventually people will start logging in less because of this.
However you do hit the mean part of the problem. I have also always linked this sort of bad game-design to a cash-shop focus. Thats the mean reason I don’t play F2P games and did go for GW2 who has supposed to be a B2P game. However as we know they are not working on an expansion and so they are now focusing on the gem-store resulting is a lot of this sort of bad game-design. It’s to bad that Anet went from the perfect payment system to a pretty bad one. It’s destroying the game.
I dont think this is a tactic to get people to play every day. In fact I completely disagree with the statement and have been trying to explain it is no different then any other non time gated currency.
15 days worth of gold take 15 days to earn
15 days worth of karma take 15 days to earn
15 days worth of dailies take 15 days to earn
In each case you need to play for 15 days to meet the requirements
In each case if you log 1 day less, 2 day less, x day less it will add x days to your 15 days.
why is it that with gold and karma its okey to add x days to your 15 days but with dailies its like you’re being forced to play every day?
I think this is just a perception issue.
Lesson here, when you introduce new items that you want acquisition take time, have both a time-gated currency and a random drop from every critter currency (like kite fortune scraps). Then you make the items cost either X time gated currency or y drop based currency. Toss in the possibility to convert one into the other at some unfriendly but better than nothing rate and everybody’s catered to.
I agree.
I think the easiest solution would be to simply keep dailies as they are, but at the same time not restrict the rewards granted by dailies to them alone.
This way lazy people like Galen can still go on about sitting on their porch and getting their daily welfare checks, while goal oriented people can go about farming for their gear in addition to that.
Ascended rings for example aren’t the worst in the world simply because you have a variety of ways to earn them, rather than just logging on for 5 minutes and then leaving.
Of course, the infinitely wise and brilliant Galen will swoop in and share this pile of crap with everyone:
- ascended gear has to last so they dont have to introduce a new tier and alienate a big part of their fan base
Which of course is completely wrong, as it has already been touched up on in the thread that the game was originally advertised as not having vertical progression in the first place. I, and I’m sure many other people were drawn to this and were happy about it and don’t want ascended gear to exist at all.
You really want to get banned it seems dont you? are you completely incapable of posting without getting personal and offending people?
But yes congratulations on assuming a lot. You know how lazy Galen is? he played nearly 1000hrs. You keep assuming that this is about I dont want to make an effort to get my reward. You keep assuming this is about I only can play 3hrs a week and I want to keep up with the person who plays 64 hrs a week. it is not about that this is about If I want to gear up one of my characters in Ascended gear I dont want to spend the next 940hrs farming karka (250karka shells x 15 items (weapons, armor, trinkets) / 4 karka shell drops per hour). I dont want to spend the next 300-500 hrs running dungeons to make 900g to pay for 225 days worth of gold (just used a conservative 4 gold per day). Running the same content over and over again is boring to me, I will drop any game that forces me to do that. I am not sure what you find exciting about grinding / farming but most people dont. This is about avoiding that.
Please can you point out where it was promised this game would have no vertical progression? Because facts are they talked about vertical progression as far back as 2011 for sure. Look at this interview:
http://amd-icbm.com/icbm/guild-wars-2-guru-gw2-qa-cd-projekt-conference/
“So, the maximum level in GW2 will be level 80 on the initial release of the game. And I’m sure as we add expansion content we’re going to add more progression and add more levels to the game.”
How many MMOs can you not take a break from and come back to do the lower tier instanced content that was present at launch ?
I have not encountered even one such.
That said, you are correct, as of now at least, about the relatively low impact of gear progression in GW2.
I’m relatively confused here, what lower-tier instanced content which was present at launch currently can’t be completed by someone gone for a month? Six months? Since November last year . . .?
Not only that but yesterday a friend of mine joined the game and at level 3 he came with me to do some mayhem fun in the queens pavilion. A starter character playing Max level content. Image how problematic it would be for a player who’s already at max level but took a long break to keep up?
But anyhow… thats not what Ahsen meant I believe, I think he meant that in other MMOs players can pick up right where they left without a problem… but that again is not in reply to what Tobias really said. What Tobias meant in the first place is a player gone for 6 months can join again and play along side his friends who never left without first progressing those 6 months they missed. Few MMOs allow you to do that.
..snip
Honestly I am not trying to be a pain but I really do no see it. If someone logs in the game to finish off the daily quickly so as to not add an extra day to their wait time for a particular reward, they’re not going to stick around once they finish the daily to browse the gem shop and buy some stuff for their character. They’ll likely be in a mad hurry, it takes time to browse the gem shop and choose stuff so why would they do it? If they feel the urge to buy stuff and again I dont see that happening if like you said they feel forced to log in and thus in an angry state for sure. If they feel like buying stuff it makes more sense to me that they would leave it for one of their regular gaming sessions when they have all the time they need to quitely look around and select stuff they like and not doing it at a time when they’re in a hurry and already spent 30 minutes they dont have playing to finish of the daily!
who is more likely to buy in the gemstore: someone who logs in for 15 min or someone who doesn’t log in at all?
they’ve got to get you into the game first. they can’t make you buy anything, they can only work to increase their chances that you’ll buy. they don’t especially need to “market” to the player that logs in every day for a few hours, because they are already hooked. they may or may not buy but there’s little else they can do to influence it. the amount of people that don’t have time to play but have money to spend however, is a market they can move in to.
…
this is probably the opposite of the truth. it’s the people who don’t spend so much time in game (but continue to log in) that don’t have sufficient gold for nice items. so it’s them that are most likely to spend real money.
i don’t say that anet are an evil corporation that wants to suck all the money from people, no. however i don’t think we should be naive about their business model. in my opinion they are trying to find a balance between max profits and minimum player unhappiness. these dailies and the living story are “sales” to get people into the game and keep giving people chances to get interested again. an interested person spends money.
This is pretty much how I feel about dailies, just a slight ‘nudge’ to play the game. They don’t provide any content, just some neat rewards. They don’t do anything for someone who no longer enjoys playing the game, and I think it’s safe to assume that most people don’t pursue things they don’t enjoy doing.
I dont think this is a tactic to get people to play every day. In fact I completely disagree with the statement and have been trying to explain it is no different then any other non time gated currency.
15 days worth of gold take 15 days to earn
15 days worth of karma take 15 days to earn
15 days worth of dailies take 15 days to earnwhy is it that with gold and karma its okey to add x days to your 15 days but with dailies its like you’re being forced to play every day?
Because the rewards are timegated.
Someone playing for two hours over two days can complete two dailies. Someone playing for two hours over one day can complete one. Change “two” to any other digit and it will apply. That’s the difference.
..snip
Honestly I am not trying to be a pain but I really do no see it. If someone logs in the game to finish off the daily quickly so as to not add an extra day to their wait time for a particular reward, they’re not going to stick around once they finish the daily to browse the gem shop and buy some stuff for their character. They’ll likely be in a mad hurry, it takes time to browse the gem shop and choose stuff so why would they do it? If they feel the urge to buy stuff and again I dont see that happening if like you said they feel forced to log in and thus in an angry state for sure. If they feel like buying stuff it makes more sense to me that they would leave it for one of their regular gaming sessions when they have all the time they need to quitely look around and select stuff they like and not doing it at a time when they’re in a hurry and already spent 30 minutes they dont have playing to finish of the daily!
who is more likely to buy in the gemstore: someone who logs in for 15 min or someone who doesn’t log in at all?
they’ve got to get you into the game first. they can’t make you buy anything, they can only work to increase their chances that you’ll buy. they don’t especially need to “market” to the player that logs in every day for a few hours, because they are already hooked. they may or may not buy but there’s little else they can do to influence it. the amount of people that don’t have time to play but have money to spend however, is a market they can move in to.
I’d say they’re both equally not to buy anything.
If they get you in for 15 minutes where you have nothing specific to do then yeah sure okey there is a chance there, but thats not what we’re talking here. Here we’re talking I have to go but I need to get this out of the way first or I loose my laurel. You have 0 time to do shopping in such a scenario.
Its not just getting people in the game, you have to 1 have them happy.. someone who is angry or stressed is unlikely to give you any money. 2. they need to have time to shop.
I would say the living story does what you’re saying sure.. New stuff every 2 weeks, new items for sale. The new stuff makes you login to check it out, the new stuff is an added incentive to buy. There I would agree 100%.
But “forcing” people to log in every day to finish off a daily? I just dont see someone logging in to quickly finish off the daily which means that person is likely late for something (we do have a premise they would not have logged in if it was not for the daily here lets not forget that) and then after they finish the daily you’re saying instead of hurrying off to whatever they’re already 30 minutes late for / behind schedule they’ll stop open the shop and look for costumes / stuff to buy?
Really you think thats likely to happen? Cause personally I would be surprised if it even happened once!
Because the rewards are timegated.
Someone playing for two hours over two days can complete two dailies. Someone playing for two hours over one day can complete one. Change “two” to any other digit and it will apply. That’s the difference.
Like I explained previously multiple times now the time gate only reduces the requirements on the player it doesnt change time required. Likewise non time gated currencies would still require the same time but to keep to that schedule they’d need to increase requirements on the player.
You are assuming the time required for earning those laurels would be the same exact time required to earn enough gold or karma if that same reward were to change over to those currencies.
Thats definitely never going to be the case.
1 laurel takes 30 minutes to earn. In 30 minutes you can make about 50s
you need 20 laurels for a single ascended item so you think a single ascended item is worth just 10g? less then many exotic items ?
They’re not meant 1:1 if ascended items where to be made tradeable no one is going to price them based on the 10hrs it takes to earn 20 laurels, they’re going to price them based on the 15 days it takes to get a single piece.
Thats why in my opinion if you change from laurels to gold you’re not going change 10hrs doing dailies for 10hrs earning gold you’ll be changing 10hrs doing dailies for 15 full days of earning gold.
Ergo someone playing 2 hrs over 2 days using dailies will be earning 2 full days progress
someone playing 2hrs over 2 days using gold would only earn 1/4 progress over a single day. Because a full day is more then 2hrs.
The dailies arent slowing you down, they’re just reducing the effort required for you to earn a reward.
Okay, I’m not getting this it takes longer for casual players to get this stuff argument.
Let’s say it takes me 30 days to get something. It takes a casual player the same 30 days to get it. That is to say, the days that player is not playing don’t count, because they’re not playing.
So it takes me 30 days of game time to get the stuff, same as them.
The days they’re not playing, they’re not playing. It’s the same with how much money I earn.
If I get X money per day then I"ll have more money then them after 30 days. But not necessarily more money after they’ve played for 30 days.
Most people get paid by the hour however, not per day. In essence Anet is paying you a full wage for showing up 1 hour a day per week and pay the same to people who work 40 hours a week. So, what should I tell my boss? Sry I can only work for one hour per week so you should pay me the full amount, because it’s not my fault that I only have 1 hour per day? He’d laugh at you and fire you. Aside from how ridiculous that would be it’s simply a matter of rewarding effort over attendance.
And you could argue, yeh but they get gold for it etc. All good and well, but the point is that it’s so easy to get max gear except for the ascended stuff…well that’s time gated and there’s no alternative for people who play more to get it faster. So all the gold can’t buy them those items. In the end, the people who play more hours tend to get the most use out of such items. They are in essence being punished for having more time to game. So in your communist way of equalising, you’re still being unfair…just to different people.
There are reasons why communism failed, corruption aside, giving everybody the same just doesn’t work. We all know how people were working as slowly as possible because they got their standard reward anyways. I do not believe in systems that just let people sit on their behinds and still reap the same rewards. Call it what you want, but it’s a bad idea in my book to play it this way because it brings out the worst in people and not the best. Going the other extreme has the same problem mind you. A more balanced approach with different options for different playstyles therefore is my suggestion.
Instead of adjusting the speed of gearing to the lowest common denominator, perhaps they should allow different player groups at different speeds. No casual has a right to complain if someone else gets the gear faster as long as he can still get it at a fair speed. If they do complain they’re just entitled children who never grew up. That’s my opinion.
It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.
..snip
Honestly I am not trying to be a pain but I really do no see it. If someone logs in the game to finish off the daily quickly so as to not add an extra day to their wait time for a particular reward, they’re not going to stick around once they finish the daily to browse the gem shop and buy some stuff for their character. They’ll likely be in a mad hurry, it takes time to browse the gem shop and choose stuff so why would they do it? If they feel the urge to buy stuff and again I dont see that happening if like you said they feel forced to log in and thus in an angry state for sure. If they feel like buying stuff it makes more sense to me that they would leave it for one of their regular gaming sessions when they have all the time they need to quitely look around and select stuff they like and not doing it at a time when they’re in a hurry and already spent 30 minutes they dont have playing to finish of the daily!
who is more likely to buy in the gemstore: someone who logs in for 15 min or someone who doesn’t log in at all?
they’ve got to get you into the game first. they can’t make you buy anything, they can only work to increase their chances that you’ll buy. they don’t especially need to “market” to the player that logs in every day for a few hours, because they are already hooked. they may or may not buy but there’s little else they can do to influence it. the amount of people that don’t have time to play but have money to spend however, is a market they can move in to.
I’d say they’re both equally not to buy anything.
you are simply wrong. i asked which was more likely to buy something, and the obvious answer is the person that logs in occasionally to do a daily. if you don’t understand how that would be the case then i’ve nothing further to add.
Like I explained previously multiple times now the time gate only reduces the requirements on the player it doesnt change time required.
That’s fine, but you asked why farming gold or karma is different than farming ‘dailies’ i.e. laurels. The difference is that you’re free to farm as much karma and gold as you want. This is not the same freedom the dailies promote, thus can encourage the feeling of ‘having to play’ a certain way. That’s why a lot of people have expressed concern, because a ‘weekly’ reward model makes more sense. That’s all I wanted to get across, so I’m not sure where the rest of your post is coming from.
Like I explained previously multiple times now the time gate only reduces the requirements on the player it doesnt change time required. Likewise non time gated currencies would still require the same time but to keep to that schedule they’d need to increase requirements on the player.
As i have explained to you several times already, it’s exactly those time requirements that are a problem.
In order for this game to not be about stat progression, BiS equipment cannot be hard or costly to acquire.
And this game was not supposed to be about stat progression.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
fact: nobody cares about the karma, gold, or experience they get from dailies. They don’t even factor into this argument because there are alternative ways to get them, some of which are potentially more efficient. The only thing that matters are the laurels and their exclusive stat boosting rewards.
If there were alternative ways to get laurels or the prizes bought by them, people would not be sweating the dailies so much and creating 8 page threads.
Fort Aspenwood – [fury], [SAO], [NICE]
Fun on someone else’s schedule is not fun
Fun on someone else’s schedule is not fun
Just stopped by to voice my agreement with the OP.
Time gating content is lazy design.
fact: nobody cares about the karma, gold, or experience they get from dailies. They don’t even factor into this argument because there are alternative ways to get them, some of which are potentially more efficient. The only thing that matters are the laurels and their exclusive stat boosting rewards.
If there were alternative ways to get laurels or the prizes bought by them, people would not be sweating the dailies so much and creating 8 page threads.
There are alternate ways of earning the stat-boosting rewards, save only the necklaces. Which I really won’t argue sucks, and they should have come up with a means of getting them by now.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
fact: nobody cares about the karma, gold, or experience they get from dailies. They don’t even factor into this argument because there are alternative ways to get them, some of which are potentially more efficient. The only thing that matters are the laurels and their exclusive stat boosting rewards.
If there were alternative ways to get laurels or the prizes bought by them, people would not be sweating the dailies so much and creating 8 page threads.
That’s not a fact at all. I’m sitting on over 220 laurels because I don’t care at all about the “exclusive stat boosting rewards” and nothing else obtained with laurels currently catches my fancy.
How many MMOs can you not take a break from and come back to do the lower tier instanced content that was present at launch ?
I have not encountered even one such.
That said, you are correct, as of now at least, about the relatively low impact of gear progression in GW2.
I’m relatively confused here, what lower-tier instanced content which was present at launch currently can’t be completed by someone gone for a month? Six months? Since November last year . . .?
Not only that but yesterday a friend of mine joined the game and at level 3 he came with me to do some mayhem fun in the queens pavilion. A starter character playing Max level content. Image how problematic it would be for a player who’s already at max level but took a long break to keep up?
But anyhow… thats not what Ahsen meant I believe, I think he meant that in other MMOs players can pick up right where they left without a problem… but that again is not in reply to what Tobias really said. What Tobias meant in the first place is a player gone for 6 months can join again and play along side his friends who never left without first progressing those 6 months they missed. Few MMOs allow you to do that.
Clarification: I quoted Vayne, not Tobias.
He implied that the ability to leave a game for six months and come back to play lower tier instances that were present at game launch was somehow unique to GW2. Every MMO I have played, or heard of, allows this. If you go away and come back six months, a year, or two years later, and go play low tier dungeons/instanced content (such as explorable versions of dungeons in GW2) you will be on the same footing as when you left with only two exceptions 1) a revamp of the game that completely alters character power level and 2) player skill that has atrophied over the time the player was gone.
Every MMO allows you to come back and play with your friends without first progressing through the six months you missed…if you and your friends are going to play old content (such as Arah explorable) from before your left.
(edited by Ashen.2907)
I agree to STOP or DIMINISH once-per-day content. We forgetting the problem here, lack of new content and that is not settled by dailies or monthlies. “Setting a pace” to hardcore or normal players by once-a-day content, that’s more like crippling our own game evolution and work. So we go to GW2 do the same thing 20x or more talking about dailies, and problem solved? No, of course not.
What do you do when you’re crippled, u remove it(Metaphor). We players feel rewarded when we do our efforts at our own pace. I think the 24/7 NERFS are enough, to cripple us.
At GW1 we didn’t have this troubles, so please set GW2 to a good way.
Make more armors, weapons other stuff! SO many stuff!
Hear your community, not people who defend everything you do, because that’s a fake evolution.
With regards
I like how this is 8 pages in and the mods / devs don’t want to touch this with a 10-foot pole.
It was mentioned earlier how having to log in every day instead of when its convenient to accomplish time sensitive things builds animosity. A feeling towards GW2 has been growing in me for a while but never could put a finger on it until I read that, and I haven’t even been around that long.
Daily content does not make me want to come back to this game. ANet is failing to copy things I like from other MMOs, instead opting into features from other MMOs that I -don’t- like.
7 weekly is infinitely more preferable if there has to be a time constraint..
Personally I don’t mind dailies/monthlies that much. I just don’t want to see any more once-per-day stuff… the dailies are ENOUGH, we don’t need any more.
The really annoying one is the charged quartz. I don’t even know if I want to craft the charged quartz gear yet, but since it takes 60 days to get the mats I would prefer to get them ready rather than wait 60 days after I decide I do. That is poor design in my opinion. Surely they could just be once-per-day PER place of power?
Crafting should not be time-gated, since it’s already gated by the need for resources.
Everyone sharing the same feeling towards this once-per-day stuff.
A Dev should be giving his “shout” to us and hopefully hear us, we are the one’s who keep GW2 up