Guild Wars 2

Is it weird I was running Explorer’s gear and not dying in Honor of the Waves unless I was getting mobbed by a half-dozen Svanir/Icebrood? Or that wolfpack on the butcher path?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Is it weird I was running Explorer’s gear and not dying in Honor of the Waves unless I was getting mobbed by a half-dozen Svanir/Icebrood? Or that wolfpack on the butcher path?

No.
People do the same using a glass cannon spec/gear.

Dying may be something related more to your skill as a player than it is to your gear…

…but having weaker gear than everyone else for a personal gain is unfair to the team.

TheUndefined.1720:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

Trust me, that guy that died 3x in the first room of the dungeon would die 3x in the first room of the dungeon if he wasn’t wearing MF gear. Sometimes it’s just the skill factor and the player himself.

That one extra stat on his gear would not have tipped the scales in his favor to make him a productive member of the team.

I don’t want to start a tiff here but this assumption is simply untrue.

I’m appreciative of this thread pushing the idea that magic-find is a poorly implemented feature of Guild Wars 2 and should be looked into; however, there have been dozens upon dozens of these threads. Thankfully, I read a few of them and am a little educated in the matter, so I’ll reiterate (poorly I’m afraid) what I’ve read in other threads. The math has already been compared, and the amount of stats, though not significantly large, was not so negligible to be ignored. The difference very well could make an impact on game play.

I’m afraid to post how disheartened I’m becoming everytime I head to these forums. Not in response to complaints but watching the direction the game is taking without any alteration to truly disruptive game mechanics. Magic find is one of these ignored features.

Someone wearing explorer’s armor versus knight’s armor is just giving up toughness for the MF. If the player isn’t going down, the toughness wouldn’t help much anyways.

I’ve read through quite a few of those MF threads too. And all those big numbers everyone likes to throw around all comes back to someone wearing Beserker’s armor. Not Knight’s. Not Rampager’s. Not anything else.

With explorer’s, power and precision are minor stats and MF is major. With Knight’s, power and precision are minor stats and toughness is major. If we want to discuss the benefit of one extra stat vs MF, this would be a good comparison.

According to every one of those MF threads, everyone should be running max Beserker gear because that will yield the most benefit to the party. Any other combination, including MF gear, is just a drag to the party.

That is what really gets me. It’s not really the MF that is bothering people, it’s the fact that you aren’t running full zerker gear.

BurnedToast.3781:

Rising Dusk.2408:

In many dungeons, I run MF gear and die less than other players who wear PVT gear. It depends so heavily on player skill that it’s not a big deal. I contribute near-max dps in my MF gear and still rarely go down, so really I don’t think it detracts that heavily from the team’s efficiency. That said, in actually difficult content (or WvW) I run my other sets of armor without MF, but there is so little actually difficult content that it’s not all that frequent (basically this is for some specific parts in Fractals, boss fights like GL, Simin, and so forth).

Running berzerker’s instead of explorers will net you 30%+ more dps depending on your critrate and other traits.

So yeah. You might not be dying, but you’re still screwing your group by making the run take longer, for personal gain.

Not everyone wears Berzerker’s gear. For example, my guardian uses mainly Knight’s gear (or will once I finish my build). The main difference between someone using Explorer’s gear and Knight’s gear is the lack of toughness. If they can go though the dungeon without dying all the time despite having less toughness than me then they’re contributing just as well as I am.

If you’re going to tell him he’s not contributing enough to the group, then you have to tell everyone who doesn’t go full glass cannon build they’re not. And there’s no way I’m going to swap out my gear for Berzerker’s just because some random forum poster cried about how some imaginary, hypothetical dungeon run that could have gone a minute faster if I had used a different build, even though the run that actually did happen went smoothly. If you’re that worked up about efficiency then save everyone involved the grief, stop joining pugs, and stick to guild or speed runs.

Mf is the reason we need an inspect feature. If you want to screw over your team fine, but expect flak for it.

BurnedToast.3781:

So yeah. You might not be dying, but you’re still screwing your group by making the run take longer, for personal gain.

(Ironically, speed runners often sacrifice the “fun” aspect of whichever dungeon it is they are running, doing it as fast as possible, FOR PERSONAL GAIN; be it “my time is precious”, etc.)

By this logic, any stat other than Berserker is slowing the team down, not only MF gear. Not everyone wants to play as if this was a real life business, where “maximum efficiency” is required, and not everybody should use a “max DPS” build just because that’s what you dig and what believe is the “right” way to play, in and/or out of dungeons.

This also leads to the dreaded, specific party compositions that have been proven to be “more efficient”-further elitism that discriminates against a few professions out there.

No I don’t use MF gear in dungeons, but dislike when people want others to play their preferred way, MF or otherwise, even if it’s for some supposedly “justified” reason. Choose your own ways to play and enjoy the game-just don’t force them on others.

Find like-minded companions, rather than complain about the gear people use. The speed runners won’t go for most non-berserker gear-party up with them, and the MF “problem” disappears.

Ehra.5240:

BurnedToast.3781:

Rising Dusk.2408:

In many dungeons, I run MF gear and die less than other players who wear PVT gear. It depends so heavily on player skill that it’s not a big deal. I contribute near-max dps in my MF gear and still rarely go down, so really I don’t think it detracts that heavily from the team’s efficiency. That said, in actually difficult content (or WvW) I run my other sets of armor without MF, but there is so little actually difficult content that it’s not all that frequent (basically this is for some specific parts in Fractals, boss fights like GL, Simin, and so forth).

Running berzerker’s instead of explorers will net you 30%+ more dps depending on your critrate and other traits.

So yeah. You might not be dying, but you’re still screwing your group by making the run take longer, for personal gain.

Not everyone wears Berzerker’s gear. For example, my guardian uses mainly Knight’s gear (or will once I finish my build). The main difference between someone using Explorer’s gear and Knight’s gear is the lack of toughness. If they can go though the dungeon without dying all the time despite having less toughness than me then they’re contributing just as well as I am.

If you’re going to tell him he’s not contributing enough to the group, then you have to tell everyone who doesn’t go full glass cannon build they’re not. And there’s no way I’m going to swap out my gear for Berzerker’s just because some random forum poster cried about how some imaginary, hypothetical dungeon run that could have gone a minute faster if I had used a different build, even though the run that actually did happen went smoothly. If you’re that worked up about efficiency then save everyone involved the grief, stop joining pugs, and stick to guild or speed runs.

Very much what I meant on my post above. Party with similar speed runners, rather than trying to force others to use the gear you prefer to use-even if it has been “proven” to be more “efficient”, or whatever.

I wouldn’t mind someone wearing magic find gear in my group if his magic find chance was shared with the rest of the party.

kiba.2768:

Ehra.5240:

kiba.2768:

Xavori.3768:

Once we find out if we can infuse the amulets via the mystic forge, the whole utility slot thing might really go to magic find and gold find even in fractals as if you can, you can get your agony resist quite a bit up there with the built-in agony resistance, freeing you up to put whatever infusion you want in your gear, and as such, extra gold and magic find is going to be way better than 4 points of a stat since 4 points at level 80 has zero measurable effect.

p.s. A player who dies 3 times in the first room of a dungeon is a bad player. All the stats in the world won’t help. You can try to explain mob mechanics of the specific dungeon to see if that helps, but it’s going to be a longshot. Thankfully, most dungeons can be 3 and 4 manned so you can get prolly get away with carrying them.

when we have 12(13) ascended pieces, those +4/5 will have a measurable impact. might want to keep that in mind

That’s assuming all ascended pieces will offer the utility slot. At the moment, only amulets offer that choice so it really is just a question of +4/5 or +20% GF/MF. Even if the utility slot becomes more common, the comparison remains the same. You’ll be comparing +60/65 to one stat to 240% more gold. That’s a lot of coin.

you seriously think anet is going to allow a 240% bonus to gold? i’m not a gambler, but i’m willing to bet my entire year’s income, house and car that that won’t happen.

I’ll take you up on that, please send me your contact information.

P.S. I can already get 90% before the new guild mission upgrades… but hey I’m getting a house and a car so who cares!

Hmmm, well yay for being guilted into not using “selfish” gear? I guess if we can successfully get people not to wear it then we can begin working on making sure they don’t wear other kind of gear either . . .

Sorry – did you inspect them and confirm they are running MF gear? After death number two they explained that they are in MF gear and usually a better player?

I might be in your group in full MF gear, the average player in this game can’t tell what ability a boss used to kill them on their own – chances are you can’t tell the difference between one of the average using ’zerks and a great player using full explorer.

I recall Gear Score being advocated the same way in another MMO – “if they don’t have the score they are gimping the whole group and making things harder/longer”, MF haters are just Gear Score kiddies in new pants.

thisolderhead.5127:

I recall Gear Score being advocated the same way in another MMO – “if they don’t have the score they are gimping the whole group and making things harder/longer”, MF haters are just Gear Score kiddies in new pants.

Not quite, I feel they’ve grown a similar mindset but would vehemently deny they have anything in common with that other MMO’s players.

Ehra.5240:

BurnedToast.3781:

Rising Dusk.2408:

In many dungeons, I run MF gear and die less than other players who wear PVT gear. It depends so heavily on player skill that it’s not a big deal. I contribute near-max dps in my MF gear and still rarely go down, so really I don’t think it detracts that heavily from the team’s efficiency. That said, in actually difficult content (or WvW) I run my other sets of armor without MF, but there is so little actually difficult content that it’s not all that frequent (basically this is for some specific parts in Fractals, boss fights like GL, Simin, and so forth).

Running berzerker’s instead of explorers will net you 30%+ more dps depending on your critrate and other traits.

So yeah. You might not be dying, but you’re still screwing your group by making the run take longer, for personal gain.

Not everyone wears Berzerker’s gear. For example, my guardian uses mainly Knight’s gear (or will once I finish my build). The main difference between someone using Explorer’s gear and Knight’s gear is the lack of toughness. If they can go though the dungeon without dying all the time despite having less toughness than me then they’re contributing just as well as I am.

If you’re going to tell him he’s not contributing enough to the group, then you have to tell everyone who doesn’t go full glass cannon build they’re not. And there’s no way I’m going to swap out my gear for Berzerker’s just because some random forum poster cried about how some imaginary, hypothetical dungeon run that could have gone a minute faster if I had used a different build, even though the run that actually did happen went smoothly. If you’re that worked up about efficiency then save everyone involved the grief, stop joining pugs, and stick to guild or speed runs.

If you aren’t using/need the toughness… why not use a different stat?
Why do you assume its ok to throw those stats away?

No really – it is just a way of making someone else the demon of their mindset, complete with the “time vs. reward” crutch as the ONLY thing that the argument is left standing on at the end.

Give me any complaint about MF and I will go and grab a GS response that fits it EVERY time. A bunch of kiddies/aspies who OCD grind looking for ways to differentiate themselves from the rest of the player base in a way that doesn’t force them to pony up actual skill.

if they keep dying, it’s not because of their mf gear. mf does NOT make that big a difference.
now, if they suck, they shouldn’t be trying to improve their drop rate, they should be trying to improve their skills or strategy or trait allocation. Either way, the fact that they are using mf gear should be play into your hopelessness feeling. feel sad that the run will suck because they suck.

^^
There are often “minimum gear” gates in MMOs – full MF will not drop you below that gate. Those gates do however assume a level of skill, verticle progression is in part about dropping that skill level via increasing gearing levels, I prefer to see verticle progression not as a treadmill for me to walk on, but rather for horrible players to stand behind and wait for loots to fall out of.

Star Ace.5207:

BurnedToast.3781:

So yeah. You might not be dying, but you’re still screwing your group by making the run take longer, for personal gain.

(Ironically, speed runners often sacrifice the “fun” aspect of whichever dungeon it is they are running, doing it as fast as possible, FOR PERSONAL GAIN; be it “my time is precious”, etc.)

By this logic, any stat other than Berserker is slowing the team down, not only MF gear. Not everyone wants to play as if this was a real life business, where “maximum efficiency” is required, and not everybody should use a “max DPS” build just because that’s what you dig and what believe is the “right” way to play, in and/or out of dungeons.

This also leads to the dreaded, specific party compositions that have been proven to be “more efficient”-further elitism that discriminates against a few professions out there.

No I don’t use MF gear in dungeons, but dislike when people want others to play their preferred way, MF or otherwise, even if it’s for some supposedly “justified” reason. Choose your own ways to play and enjoy the game-just don’t force them on others.

Find like-minded companions, rather than complain about the gear people use. The speed runners won’t go for most non-berserker gear-party up with them, and the MF “problem” disappears.

It’s true – any stat other then ‘zerkers slows the group down (unless you need that toughness to stay alive, which the MF leeches are claiming they don’t). As far as there is a “right” way to play, doing max damage is it.

However, I don’t really care that much about “optimal” setups and whatever anyway (if I did I’d roll a ‘zerker warrior and farm with the rest of them). I don’t care if you’re condition spec, or toughness/vitality spec or whatever as long as you are doing your best. It’s just MF people, who specifically go out of their way to increase personal reward at the expensive of everyone else in the group that frustrate me. They are purposely hurting all the other people in the group just to get more rewards for themselves, and then trying to cover that with lame excuses like they could be wearing toughness gear instead (even though they obviously don’t need the toughness).

I don’t get the hate on MF. I carry 2 armor sets, 1 explorer which I wear unless my party seems to struggle, and the other rubicon armor of Lyssa which grants me more vitality, condition damage and condition removal. I do more damage with my MF and a lot of the time I am the one supporting my team. Zerker gear, I have run with those glass cannons, sure they excel in some situations that require really high dps but most of the time I find them on their kitten cause they can’t take a hit, where’s your DPS then?
I’ve also run with groups where everyone had MF gear that went really well.

kiba.2768:

Ehra.5240:

kiba.2768:

Xavori.3768:

Once we find out if we can infuse the amulets via the mystic forge, the whole utility slot thing might really go to magic find and gold find even in fractals as if you can, you can get your agony resist quite a bit up there with the built-in agony resistance, freeing you up to put whatever infusion you want in your gear, and as such, extra gold and magic find is going to be way better than 4 points of a stat since 4 points at level 80 has zero measurable effect.

p.s. A player who dies 3 times in the first room of a dungeon is a bad player. All the stats in the world won’t help. You can try to explain mob mechanics of the specific dungeon to see if that helps, but it’s going to be a longshot. Thankfully, most dungeons can be 3 and 4 manned so you can get prolly get away with carrying them.

when we have 12(13) ascended pieces, those +4/5 will have a measurable impact. might want to keep that in mind

That’s assuming all ascended pieces will offer the utility slot. At the moment, only amulets offer that choice so it really is just a question of +4/5 or +20% GF/MF. Even if the utility slot becomes more common, the comparison remains the same. You’ll be comparing +60/65 to one stat to 240% more gold. That’s a lot of coin.

you seriously think anet is going to allow a 240% bonus to gold? i’m not a gambler, but i’m willing to bet my entire year’s income, house and car that that won’t happen.

Where can i sign up?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Ehra.5240:

BurnedToast.3781:

Rising Dusk.2408:

In many dungeons, I run MF gear and die less than other players who wear PVT gear. It depends so heavily on player skill that it’s not a big deal. I contribute near-max dps in my MF gear and still rarely go down, so really I don’t think it detracts that heavily from the team’s efficiency. That said, in actually difficult content (or WvW) I run my other sets of armor without MF, but there is so little actually difficult content that it’s not all that frequent (basically this is for some specific parts in Fractals, boss fights like GL, Simin, and so forth).

Running berzerker’s instead of explorers will net you 30%+ more dps depending on your critrate and other traits.

So yeah. You might not be dying, but you’re still screwing your group by making the run take longer, for personal gain.

Not everyone wears Berzerker’s gear. For example, my guardian uses mainly Knight’s gear (or will once I finish my build). The main difference between someone using Explorer’s gear and Knight’s gear is the lack of toughness. If they can go though the dungeon without dying all the time despite having less toughness than me then they’re contributing just as well as I am.

If you’re going to tell him he’s not contributing enough to the group, then you have to tell everyone who doesn’t go full glass cannon build they’re not. And there’s no way I’m going to swap out my gear for Berzerker’s just because some random forum poster cried about how some imaginary, hypothetical dungeon run that could have gone a minute faster if I had used a different build, even though the run that actually did happen went smoothly. If you’re that worked up about efficiency then save everyone involved the grief, stop joining pugs, and stick to guild or speed runs.

If you aren’t using/need the toughness… why not use a different stat?
Why do you assume its ok to throw those stats away?

Why do you think it’s ok to tell other players what gear they should wear when they’re performing as well as anyone wearing non berserker’s gear? Since taking personal gain over group performance is so terrible, do you also throw a fit at people who don’t use food? How about people who use MF/GF food? People who don’t use the best stat food are choosing their own personal gain (not spending money) over the performance of the group. If someone doesn’t bring food and I have extra, am I being selfish for not sending it to the person in the group so the run could go faster?

Be real here. You don’t actually care about “selfishness” or “fairness” or “what’s best for the group.” You’re just crying about gear choice. Stick to your speed runs and let the rest of us selfish people actually enjoy the game.

Person 1 wants full ’zerks for the return on their time, and will tell EVERYONE!
Person 2 is wearing full MF for the return on their time, and is telling NOONE!

Seems to me like both camps want the same thing, to be filthy stinking rich – one camp is just doing it while the other complains about it.

Obvious outcome since Person 1 is attempting to tell/sell/convince other people to play the ’Zerk-way while Person 2 is just getting on with it and playing their own way!

Ehra.5240:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Ehra.5240:

BurnedToast.3781:

Rising Dusk.2408:

In many dungeons, I run MF gear and die less than other players who wear PVT gear. It depends so heavily on player skill that it’s not a big deal. I contribute near-max dps in my MF gear and still rarely go down, so really I don’t think it detracts that heavily from the team’s efficiency. That said, in actually difficult content (or WvW) I run my other sets of armor without MF, but there is so little actually difficult content that it’s not all that frequent (basically this is for some specific parts in Fractals, boss fights like GL, Simin, and so forth).

Running berzerker’s instead of explorers will net you 30%+ more dps depending on your critrate and other traits.

So yeah. You might not be dying, but you’re still screwing your group by making the run take longer, for personal gain.

Not everyone wears Berzerker’s gear. For example, my guardian uses mainly Knight’s gear (or will once I finish my build). The main difference between someone using Explorer’s gear and Knight’s gear is the lack of toughness. If they can go though the dungeon without dying all the time despite having less toughness than me then they’re contributing just as well as I am.

If you’re going to tell him he’s not contributing enough to the group, then you have to tell everyone who doesn’t go full glass cannon build they’re not. And there’s no way I’m going to swap out my gear for Berzerker’s just because some random forum poster cried about how some imaginary, hypothetical dungeon run that could have gone a minute faster if I had used a different build, even though the run that actually did happen went smoothly. If you’re that worked up about efficiency then save everyone involved the grief, stop joining pugs, and stick to guild or speed runs.

If you aren’t using/need the toughness… why not use a different stat?
Why do you assume its ok to throw those stats away?

Why do you think it’s ok to tell other players what gear they should wear when they’re performing as well as anyone wearing non berserker’s gear? Since taking personal gain over group performance is so terrible, do you also throw a fit at people who don’t use food? How about people who use MF/GF food? People who don’t use the best stat food are choosing their own personal gain (not spending money) over the performance of the group. If someone doesn’t bring food and I have extra, am I being selfish for not sending it to the person in the group so the run could go faster?

Be real here. You don’t actually care about “selfishness” or “fairness” or “what’s best for the group.” You’re just crying about gear choice. Stick to your speed runs and let the rest of us selfish people actually enjoy the game.

You have done nothing to support the MF gear, and instead decide to attack my choice for optimization in a party.

True, optimization might not be achievable at all times…. but you should always strive to be as close to optimal as possible. If you are using stats that don’t benefit you in any way…. you retrait/regear to get the most bang for your buck.

Magic Find gear sends you in the opposite direction. Instead of working toward an optimal setup… you deliberately choose to sacrifice performance output for personal gain.

What have ANY of you said that would support the use of MF gear?

“I could be using toughness that won’t matter”
Bottom line is…. toughness does matter.
…and if you feel like you can get away with less toughness, get rid of it and bring a different stat that will increase your performance.

Are you seriously telling me that none of the stats in the game would increase your performance at all…. to the point where you just decide to throw stat increases away for personal gain?

Give me one good un-selfish reason why magic find is better than choosing a stat that could increase performance…. and stop trying to justify this nonsense saying that you could be running toughness that you wouldn’t need.

I’d be happier if you were running toughness.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

You have done nothing to support the MF gear, and instead decide to attack my choice for optimization in a party.

Except for the post I made previously where I explained that Explorer’s is only “worse” than going full glass cannon. You can dodge the point all you want, if you’re going to say someone isn’t contributing enough by using Explorer’s then anyone who uses Knights isn’t contributing enough either.

And I didn’t attack your decision to optimize a party. You can go ahead and try to “optimize” all you want, but what we’re talking about is you walking into a PUG and telling everyone what gear they should wear. If you want that much optimization then do speed runs, which are exactly what you’re looking for. What I DID “attack” is the idea that you’re going on about fairness, and I used the example of food to show that you don’t. There are plenty of other examples I could bring up too; the game is full of people playing classes and builds that are “subpar” compared to other options available to them but they still choose them because that’s what they like playing.

I’d be happier if you were running toughness.

And this comment proves my point. You’d rather a person use a stat they don’t need to survive than benefit from MF. You’re not being a stickler for what’s “fair,” you’ve just got an irrational hatred for a stat in a video game.

(As an aside, it also shows you’ve got terrible reading comprehension, as I’ve already said in this thread that I personally don’t use MF gear in dungeons, and I use a mix of gear with toughness and vit because I’m not great at dodging. But don’t let facts like that get in the way of you accusing everyone who’s ok with other people using whatever gear they want of being the selfish ones)

Basically, you’re outraged that everyone else doesn’t mold their entire character build around getting YOU the most possible gold for your time spent, and you’re accusing them of being selfish as a result. Combine it with joining a PUG and expecting speed run level optimization and coordination and you’ve got a recipe for hilarity.

Except for the post I made previously where I explained that Explorer’s is only “worse” than going full glass cannon. You can dodge the point all you want, if you’re going to say someone isn’t contributing enough by using Explorer’s then anyone who uses Knights isn’t contributing enough either.

I don’t know about other people, but, I don’t consider damage the only way a player can be valuable to the group. I don’t hold a tanky/support character by the same standards I do glass cannon characters because I expect them to be doing different things. For example; I don’t expect a tanky/support character to strategically burst down an add, and I don’t expect a glass cannon to dive into a fire to rez somebody.

I think it’s just easier to talk about it from a glass cannon versus MF perspective, because the difference can be quantified in easy to compare numbers.

That said, I don’t think it’s about the specifics of the comparison per se’, the comparison just highlights the existence of a discrepancy at all. There’s unspoken rule in the social contract of grouping, that you should always try your best for the sake of your group. It doesn’t matter what your best actually boils down to in practical terms, just that you’re trying. I think when (most) people are talking about Magic Find being selfish, I don’t think they’re really hung up on exact percentages of efficiency, but that you’re volunteering not to put forth your best effort in exchange for personal gain.

Ehra.5240:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

You have done nothing to support the MF gear, and instead decide to attack my choice for optimization in a party.

Except for the post I made previously where I explained that Explorer’s is only “worse” than going full glass cannon. You can dodge the point all you want, if you’re going to say someone isn’t contributing enough by using Explorer’s then anyone who uses Knights isn’t contributing enough either.

And I didn’t attack your decision to optimize a party. You can go ahead and try to “optimize” all you want, but what we’re talking about is you walking into a PUG and telling everyone what gear they should wear. If you want that much optimization then do speed runs, which are exactly what you’re looking for. What I DID “attack” is the idea that you’re going on about fairness, and I used the example of food to show that you don’t. There are plenty of other examples I could bring up too; the game is full of people playing classes and builds that are “subpar” compared to other options available to them but they still choose them because that’s what they like playing.

I’d be happier if you were running toughness.

And this comment proves my point. You’d rather a person use a stat they don’t need to survive than benefit from MF. You’re not being a stickler for what’s “fair,” you’ve just got an irrational hatred for a stat in a video game.

(As an aside, it also shows you’ve got terrible reading comprehension, as I’ve already said in this thread that I personally don’t use MF gear in dungeons, and I use a mix of gear with toughness and vit because I’m not great at dodging. But don’t let facts like that get in the way of you accusing everyone who’s ok with other people using whatever gear they want of being the selfish ones)

Basically, you’re outraged that everyone else doesn’t mold their entire character build around getting YOU the most possible gold for your time spent, and you’re accusing them of being selfish as a result. Combine it with joining a PUG and expecting speed run level optimization and coordination and you’ve got a recipe for hilarity.

I’m not “dodging any points” I’m telling you that if you don’t use toughness, use something else…. besides MF! Explorers gear is worse than Knights gear… but at least with knights you have toughness…

If anyone says they never get hit, they are lying…. and if you are running magic find in place of a useful stat, I would definitely prefer you to be running AT LEAST toughness instead of nothing (MF). …and I’d prefer any number of other stats in place of toughness….
MF < toughness < most other stats…
but here we go again…. arguing about Explorer’s vs Knights instead of supporting MF, you go right back to the same argument that holds no water.

Also, I’ve talked about MF food and consumables earlier in the thread…. so I don’t understand what you are trying to say with the whole
“Oop… looks like you forgot about consumables.” thing.

In addition… its not “ME” who benefits from this outlook… its the TEAM.

I don’t understand how you could even attempt to justify calling me selfish.
Magic find benefits one person. There is nothing I have said that is going to benefit me that isn’t going to benefit the entire party… there is no selfishness on my end whatsoever… if anything this outlook is an opposition against selfishness in general, and the purpose of this entire thread is to find a way to make everyone happy about this.

IE: notions about averages in group MF

Also, if I form the team, and I don’t like the fact that someone is using MF gear, I have the option to remove them from the party at will. simple as that. Doesn’t take any coordination or optimization to see someone running mf gear and kick them.

You probably wouldn’t know anything about “joining a PUG and expecting speed run level optimization and coordination” like you said, if you are running MF gear.

ANY team you are on is sub optimal…. but go ahead and lecture me about it.

Leech, if you’re going to ignore my posts and keep talking to yourself then I don’t see any point in continuing to reply to you. It’s pretty clear you’d rather just have someone to yell at than have an actual discussion, considering you seem content to keep going on “ololo u use MF gear oloolo” despite the fact that I’ve repeatedly pointed out that I don’t.

If your most common reply to my arguments is “I don’t understand….” then maybe you should stop getting so angry at me and start thinking about what your actual issue with what I’m saying is. Nothing better than someone who admits they don’t get what your point is but they’re still convinced you’re wrong.

Vox Hollow.2736:

I don’t know about other people, but, I don’t consider damage the only way a player can be valuable to the group. I don’t hold a tanky/support character by the same standards I do glass cannon characters because I expect them to be doing different things. For example; I don’t expect a tanky/support character to strategically burst down an add, and I don’t expect a glass cannon to dive into a fire to rez somebody.

Explorer’s gear isn’t the only MF gear out there. If someone wanted to make a tanky character with MF gear they still can. Healing MF gear doesn’t exist, but there are lots of stat combos that are missing.

I don’t think they’re really hung up on exact percentages of efficiency, but that you’re volunteering not to put forth your best effort in exchange for personal gain.

Yeah, like I said earlier. It comes down to people getting upset because they feel they’re entitled to some imaginary run that COULD have gone a few minutes faster if their party members had done X thing differently. And there are a huge number of things that X could be, but for some reason only MF gear gets people upset enough to start throwing out insults.

It amazes me to no end the amount of rationalization MF leeches will go to justify their leeching. The stat helps no one but yourself, it is purely selfish. Any other stat would be better to the group, it doesn’t matter how marginal it would be. Stop rationalizing that the “extra stats wouldn’t matter” or “my skill can somehow surpass all game mechanics”. Since when was it okay to not be the best you can be? Since when can you spam dodge and dps while dodging? Since when do numbers not matter in a MMORPG?

Some MF defender please tell me how is it any better than someone rolling in all blues and asking to be carried? And don’t tell me that you would be okay carrying them because we all know that is a flat out lie, as soon as you wipe once. And before you get all excited, I am fully aware you can wear MF and not wipe. Speed becomes important as soon as people know the routine and just farm it for whatever. And guess what? Every number matters when you want speed. I feel like, all of a sudden, people want to change decades of common gaming etiquette because the shinnies are too tempting. In what other game is it okay and accepted to not be trying your best for pure greed? Apparently someone trolling your dungeon with purposely done lesser gear (for his own personal lawls) should be accepted because that is the path some of you suggest is okay.

I’m glad I run with guildies most of the time – they don’t care (or even ask) what gear anyone else is running, regardless of what we’re doing. We also take whatever characters people have available (gasp) when we do dungeon runs, so CoF P1 might take 10 minutes or more (oh no!).

I think most of the people in this thread, that are worried about what other people are using, are playing the game wrong. But that’s just a casual player’s opinion…

I find it funny that when people bring up how one will indeed have an advantage over other players with full ascended gear on the argument is that gear doesn’t affect the gameplay at all and that people are bad at math.

The moment someone has MF gear on tho people are all claiming that it’s horrible and MF gear causes sooo many deaths.

You can’t have it both ways.

Not everyone is interested in speed runs, I hate joining a group that skip 90% of the content just to get a chest and a few tokens. It’s a personal preference. Some of us don’t give a kitten if the group is suboptimal, as long as no one is in constant need of rez and things get killed. I couldn’t care less what build your playing as long as your are playing it well. I couldn’t care less if a run take 15mins or 1h15 as long as I get to have fun and non one is dying all the time. If you don’t like MF gear in your party that is your problem. Specify it in LFG, join your optimal power obsessive group and shut up about it. What really bugs me is when someone is calling me a noob and an idiot and blaming me for a bad run with a party that I put together because of my MF when I am the one that keeps rezzing them. DPS is fine as long as you can stay in combat long enough to get the job done. MF is fine as long as you stay in combat long enough to get the job done. I always tell my party that I am running MF and have backup gear is things get hairy, most are fine with that, if they aren’t they can kick me. In the end I play my toon the way I like cause it’s my kittening game and I kittening paid for it and I’ll be kitten if I will let some elitist dictate what I should and should not be doing.

Yeah, like I said earlier. It comes down to people getting upset because they feel they’re entitled to some imaginary run that COULD have gone a few minutes faster if their party members had done X thing differently. And there are a huge number of things that X could be, but for some reason only MF gear gets people upset enough to start throwing out insults.

I’m afraid you’ve mistaken me.

I’m saying people aren’t angry because you’re inefficient, they’re angry that you’re not giving the group your all. It’s not a numbers problem, it’s an attitude problem that just happens to involve numbers.

It amazes me to no end that people QQing about MF try to gussy their outrage up as an argument about what’s “fair” rather than that blatant elitism it is.

“Oh dear, you mean there might be people with blues in my PUG dungeon run!?” Monocle pops out. Record scratches to a halt. Closeup on comedic relief character making a funny face with a “huuuuuuuuuuuhgh??!” sound dubbed over.

edit:

Vox Hollow.2736:

I’m afraid you’ve mistaken me.

I’m saying people aren’t angry because you’re inefficient, they’re angry that you’re not giving the group your all. It’s not a numbers problem, it’s an attitude problem.

I didn’t misunderstand you. I’ve given previous examples of ways that people intentionally don’t give a group their all in exchange for personal profit, such as not using food, or using MG/GF food instead of stat food. A person is intentionally deciding to not spend money that could make a run go quicker, which is essentially the same exact thing as gear that improves your potential momentary gain rather than having better combat stats. Yet food use doesn’t produce as much outrage as slapping on some MF gear, and if this were really a philosophical issue like you’re trying to suggest then it would.

And the fact that we’ve got people going on comparing MF use to using blues, as if using blues is itself a terrible thing to do in a dungeon run, pretty much shows this absolutely is an issue of numbers. The outrage is because people aren’t getting fast enough runs, not because they’re offended over someone’s play style choices (as if that’s somehow any more reasonable).

Ehra.5240:

Yeah, like I said earlier. It comes down to people getting upset because they feel they’re entitled to some imaginary run that COULD have gone a few minutes faster if their party members had done X thing differently. And there are a huge number of things that X could be, but for some reason only MF gear gets people upset enough to start throwing out insults.

The answer is simple. You purposely chose to equip MF for purely selfish reasons. You knew exactly what you were doing and decided your drops were more important than any group concept. You decided that being lesser in a group environment was okay, so you can get dem shinnies.

Other sub-optimal builds are mostly done out of ignorance or poor choices. There was no intentional choice to screw the group and they often can be educated. If they refuse to accept any criticism for whatever selfish reason (RP, style etc) then they are ridiculed for not helping the group. I also aware that some builds are good on certain fights, so optimal build is very debatable in this game. But there is no debate for MF, it doesn’t help you preform at all.

Be right back guys, someone paid me 50 bucks to play a pickup basketball game with one of my fingers taped up. After all, it’s just one finger I am 100% sure it will have no effect on the game. I am sure they won’t mind, so I can get my money. Although I sure wish I could hide it, like MF, that way they would never know I was being selfish! (yay anonymity!!!)

Valenthor.4052:

Other sub-optimal builds are mostly done out of ignorance or poor choices. There was no intentional choice to screw the group and they often can be educated. If they refuse to accept any criticism for whatever selfish reason (RP, style etc) then they are ridiculed for not helping the group.

“People who don’t use the best builds are just ignorant, except when they aren’t in which case they’re selfish for not changing their character to meet my whims.”

And you think you’re helping your case

Ehra.5240:

It amazes me to no end that people QQing about MF try to gussy their outrage up as an argument about what’s “fair” rather than that blatant elitism it is.

“Oh dear, you mean there might be people with blues in my PUG dungeon run!?” Monocle pops out. Record scratches to a halt. Closeup on comedic relief character making a funny face with a “huuuuuuuuuuuhgh??!” sound dubbed over.

Excellent argument skills. Just label everyone who disagrees with you as “elitist”, a loosely held together insult akin to calling someone a fat nerd who takes games too seriously. It is a lot harder to put your big boy pants on and think of counter points isn’t it? This where I call you a terrible mouth breathing casual who facerolls his way to exotics.

Enjoy doing harder level fractals with someone in all blues. No, and this will shock you, I really don’t care if you are in blues and we are breezing through the dungeon. But as soon as we struggle and not killing anything, yeah you bet I am going to question things. The MF choice should be removed by Arenanet in group play, a selfish stat doesn’t fit in a group environment.

Ehra.5240:

“People who don’t use the best builds are just ignorant, except when they aren’t in which case they’re selfish for not changing their character to meet my whims.”

And you think you’re helping your case

And you think you are being clever? Putting words in people’s mouth isn’t making good points. You are so caught up on labeling me an “elitist” you can’t even see anything past that. Totally misunderstood what I was even saying. Someone is sensitive.

It’s not a binary indiscretion. People do genuinely seem more upset proportional to the more magic find you stack. I think if people seem more upset with the word ‘Armor set’ it’s because it refers to multiple pieces, while the word ‘Food’ just refers to one.

That’s not to imply there’s a threshold for happiness that your magic find can land under, just a threshold of unhappiness it can go over before people start pursuing the matter verbally.

Valenthor.4052:

It amazes me to no end the amount of rationalization MF leeches will go to justify their leeching. The stat helps no one but yourself, it is purely selfish. Any other stat would be better to the group, it doesn’t matter how marginal it would be. Stop rationalizing that the “extra stats wouldn’t matter” or “my skill can somehow surpass all game mechanics”. Since when was it okay to not be the best you can be? Since when can you spam dodge and dps while dodging? Since when do numbers not matter in a MMORPG?

Some MF defender please tell me how is it any better than someone rolling in all blues and asking to be carried? And don’t tell me that you would be okay carrying them because we all know that is a flat out lie, as soon as you wipe once. And before you get all excited, I am fully aware you can wear MF and not wipe. Speed becomes important as soon as people know the routine and just farm it for whatever. And guess what? Every number matters when you want speed. I feel like, all of a sudden, people want to change decades of common gaming etiquette because the shinnies are too tempting. In what other game is it okay and accepted to not be trying your best for pure greed? Apparently someone trolling your dungeon with purposely done lesser gear (for his own personal lawls) should be accepted because that is the path some of you suggest is okay.

All right, assuming I concede the point (I’m not, but we’ll assume I did). Assuming that not being the absolute best I could be is detrimental to any group I would join, MF, GF or neither . . .

What exactly should I be putting on my character to make him the best? And if I go with something else, we’ve already established it’s not good for a group, since it’s not the best and I made the choice not to.

I’m trying to see if this is what you’re suggesting in turn . . . that unless I am running a specific set of armor numerically identical to what you determined was “the best”, I should not be grouping. Am I correct?

Valenthor.4052:

Excellent argument skills. Just label everyone who disagrees with you as “elitist”

Kind of like how you’ve been throwing out the word selfish or accusing people who use gear you don’t like of being trolls, right? Come on, no one is buying the victim card you’re trying to play here. And, seriously, a huge lol at you trying to equate being called an “elitist” for throwing a fit over a player’s gear rarity to a personal insult directed at a person’s body type.

There’s all sorts of crazy going on in this thread right now so I think I’m going to call it quits for now. At the rate this thread’s going, it won’t be long until someone goes on about how Necromancers trying to join a dungeon are selfish for not playing a glass cannon Warrior instead.

And FYI, I don’t run Fractals.

edit:

And you think you are being clever? Putting words in people’s mouth isn’t making good points. You are so caught up on labeling me an “elitist” you can’t even see anything past that. Totally misunderstood what I was even saying. Someone is sensitive.

First you assumed that if someone had a suboptimal build then they didn’t know any better. Then you said if they didn’t take advice on their build for “selfish” reasons like playstyle or RP then they deserve ridicule. That was your exact argument, didn’t need to put any words into your mouth at all.

Valenthor.4052:

Ehra.5240:

“People who don’t use the best builds are just ignorant, except when they aren’t in which case they’re selfish for not changing their character to meet my whims.”

And you think you’re helping your case

And you think you are being clever? Putting words in people’s mouth isn’t making good points. You are so caught up on labeling me an “elitist” you can’t even see anything past that. Totally misunderstood what I was even saying. Someone is sensitive.

Don’t let this guy get to you…. You have made several valid points… something which he has yet to do.

Ehra.5240:

Valenthor.4052:

Excellent argument skills. Just label everyone who disagrees with you as “elitist”

Kind of like how you’ve been throwing out the word selfish or accusing people who use gear you don’t like of being trolls, right? Come on, no one is buying the victim card you’re trying to play here. And, seriously, a huge lol at you trying to equate being called an “elitist” for throwing a fit over a player’s gear rarity to a personal insult directed at a person’s body type.

There’s all sorts of crazy going on in this thread right now so I think I’m going to call it quits for now. At the rate this thread’s going, it won’t be long until someone goes on about how Necromancers trying to join a dungeon are selfish for not playing a glass cannon Warrior instead.

And FYI, I don’t run Fractals.

edit:

And you think you are being clever? Putting words in people’s mouth isn’t making good points. You are so caught up on labeling me an “elitist” you can’t even see anything past that. Totally misunderstood what I was even saying. Someone is sensitive.

First you assumed that if someone had a suboptimal build then they didn’t know any better. Then you said if they didn’t take advice on their build for “selfish” reasons like playstyle or RP then they deserve ridicule. That was your exact argument, didn’t need to put any words into your mouth at all.

Selfish isn’t a stereotype label to generalize a group of people. Selfish is an intention. Explain to me how choosing MF is not selfish in almost any context. You threw around the word “elitist” to try and say my point is wrong because I belong to some group, this isn’t my first rodeo in the poor internet argument land.

If we are wiping and struggling through a dungeon and I ask you “What spec are you?”. And you respond, “0/0/0, I am RPing a character that doesn’t use traits”. I am going to ask you to change, maybe make fun of you if you are an kitten about it, and if not kick you. When you enter a group environment, you are required to at least try your best to help the group. Not do whatever you want because it suits you. Welcome to normal human social interaction in any group environment. Stop with the slippery slope fallacy, it doesn’t lead to suddenly nobody inviting Necros. Nor do I personally review everyone’s spec (nice exaggeration btw!) and go on witchhunts when they have a “different” spec. You act as if this is black and white, either allow everyone to do whatever the hell they want or the evil elitist control the world. Some things are allowed and some are not, call it common sense, gamer etiquette, whatever you want it exists in every community.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Valenthor.4052:

It amazes me to no end the amount of rationalization MF leeches will go to justify their leeching. The stat helps no one but yourself, it is purely selfish. Any other stat would be better to the group, it doesn’t matter how marginal it would be. Stop rationalizing that the “extra stats wouldn’t matter” or “my skill can somehow surpass all game mechanics”. Since when was it okay to not be the best you can be? Since when can you spam dodge and dps while dodging? Since when do numbers not matter in a MMORPG?

Some MF defender please tell me how is it any better than someone rolling in all blues and asking to be carried? And don’t tell me that you would be okay carrying them because we all know that is a flat out lie, as soon as you wipe once. And before you get all excited, I am fully aware you can wear MF and not wipe. Speed becomes important as soon as people know the routine and just farm it for whatever. And guess what? Every number matters when you want speed. I feel like, all of a sudden, people want to change decades of common gaming etiquette because the shinnies are too tempting. In what other game is it okay and accepted to not be trying your best for pure greed? Apparently someone trolling your dungeon with purposely done lesser gear (for his own personal lawls) should be accepted because that is the path some of you suggest is okay.

All right, assuming I concede the point (I’m not, but we’ll assume I did). Assuming that not being the absolute best I could be is detrimental to any group I would join, MF, GF or neither . . .

What exactly should I be putting on my character to make him the best? And if I go with something else, we’ve already established it’s not good for a group, since it’s not the best and I made the choice not to.

I’m trying to see if this is what you’re suggesting in turn . . . that unless I am running a specific set of armor numerically identical to what you determined was “the best”, I should not be grouping. Am I correct?

No. Stop turning this MF debate into a debate about elitism. It is pretty difficult to have a “best” build in this game by it’s nature, but this is besides the point. The key is intention. There is a big difference between someone trying their best to help the group and someone who intentionally puts on a MF stat that helps only them and hurts the rest of the group. Especially when the group is struggling. If you are breezing through and let the group know you are going MF than it really doesn’t matter. Problem is most people will just hide it and leech, even when the group is struggling.

this thread is no longer inviting constructive critisism. Moderators, please close this thread as it is just a “blah blah blah mean comment mean comment” "blah blah blah mean comment mean comment. im looking at you tobias and valenthor>.>

Valenthor.4052:

No. Stop turning this MF debate into a debate about elitism. It is pretty difficult to have a “best” build in this game by it’s nature, but this is besides the point. The key is intention. There is a big difference between someone trying their best to help the group and someone who intentionally puts on a MF stat that helps only them and hurts the rest of the group. Especially when the group is struggling. If you are breezing through and let the group know you are going MF than it really doesn’t matter. Problem is most people will just hide it and leech, even when the group is struggling.

Not turning it into elitism, not turning it into a “don’t tell me how to do what I do”, I’m just wondering aloud why this is the only absolute you choose to bring up.

It doesn’t matter if we just breezed through and I never got downed, if I let it be known I’m wearing MF gear, the instant point is that I was being selfish and not helping the group. Even if it was working out fine, or even if I was doing very well, the instant I say MF was anywhere on my gear? In this line of thought you’re promoting, it wouldn’t MATTER how well I did. It still could have, theoretically, gone better.

And for the record? Most of my gear has no MF on it since I got Temple exotics. Even before that, it was Shaman and Cleric parts with Soldier medallions. (Why Soldier? I had 15 of them before I slotted them in.) I still use some jewelry but that’s because I’m still trying to waffle over what stats to shore up the most before I commit. I think there’s a total of +10% MF I’m using at all. But, as the argument would undoubtedly go . . . that’s +10% worth of other stats I could . . . should . . . be putting into something else. Like Power or Crit Damage to raise my DPS.

I don’t like people trying to tell me what gear to wear, or that I’m actively (or passive-aggressively) hurting the party by wearing certain gear. But I put up with it because I primarily group with guildmates and PUG only when they’re not available and I have the time.

I agree that there are situations where MF is not warranted and I think the problem is the a lot of people don’t know when to take it off. In most dungeons MF is pointless cause half the time the mods are skipped and half the mobs don’t drop a thing anyway. Fractals past 30 MF is not recommended, except for Maw, second half of Ascalon (if you are good enough to stay alive), middle part of the dredge (If you are good enough to stay alive), and the first half of the Aquatic Ruins (If you are good enough to stay alive). I agree, if your party is struggling, take it off. If you are struggling, take it off but if all is going smoothly, keep it on. To outright call it useless and people who use it selfish is wrong cause in a way you are selfish as well. You want people to play like you so that your runs go better and that you can improve your time invested/reward ratio. You can try and hide behind the whole “for the good of the entire party” argument all you want but in the end it’s your time and what you want to be reward for it and you are even more selfish cause you are trying to impose your way of thinking to achieve your goal. We all are selfish, it’s just human nature to look out for yourself first.

This is not the military where people actually die if you are not at the top of your game, it’s just a flipping video game and everyone should be able to be play and enjoy it the way they want without discrimination because they paid for it too.

This thread is just going to go on forever, like countless other MF argument threads and nobody is ever going to agree on the subject. In my mind it should be closed and the argument ended.

Honestly this whole thing is a stupid argument and doesn’t even really pan out in real game play. If you are wearing MF and doing a stellar job as a teammate, I have no problems or issues with you. If you are wearing MF and doing a crappy job as a teammate, it’s still probably not the MF causing the problem.

I’d take someone who makes the run go smoother over someone who doesn’t, pure and simple. Doesn’t matter what gear you are running. If you contribute (fractals for example — carry the Hammer in cliffside, stand on buttons in dredge, light fires in Snowblind, etc), you are a good teammate. Combos / Finishers, etc.

Yeah OK — if the person in MF is going down a lot or the group’s DPS is mind numbingly slow (as in you can tell the group is dragging in the DPS department), then it’d be nice if everyone took a look at their gear and tried to optimize. But it’s probably the whole group dragging and not just one guy.

For the record, I run full exotic (and whatever ascended I can get) Zerker gear. I just don’t think other people should care that much unless it’s a MAJOR hindrance. Which it probably isn’t if someone is wearing MF.

You want people to play like you so that your runs go better and that you can improve your time invested/reward ratio.

I sincerely do not care about profit/hr. I constantly mention my preference for fighting trash mobs during skipping debates in the dungeon forum, despite the terrible risk/reward ratio.

No sinister wordplay here.
It really is just about teamwork.

About “knight is no better than explorer”. If I’m dead for the lack of toughness I’m not helping the party, I’m hindering it.

Also, if somebody gets down and it’s about to die, with more toughness I can jump in and try to rally him under enemy fire. Or, with berserker, I can kill a mob faster to rally him.

So no matter what mf lovers say, if I get a mf geared toon it’s an auto kick. mf wearers are weaker, but they gain better rewards; non mf characters are stronger, but get less stuff. And I don’t like that a bit.

you wont even notice the MF on skilled players even i trash dungeons in a blink with MF gear. so its more a L2P issue.

Yeah, that’s why I said “if” I get them.