Guild Wars 2

Downed state and rally system are PVE features.

No PVP developer would’ve created these mechanics. There are way too many loop holes and ways to abuse this. The balancing is also a huge factor; let alone pace of game play.

I guess the question is, are we talking PvE or PvP. I wouldn’t care if the downed state was removed from PvP (it won’t be anyway), but in PvE, I think it would be a big, big mistake. If nothing else it adds drama.

If the effects of downed state were 100% balanced between classes there would be no issues because everyone would have the same chances to get back up or do the same damage in order to do s rescue rez.

There are tons of ways of improving the way they do this in every class. I’ve personally logged multiple suggestions on improving the engineers in their suggestion forums but nothings been done about the horrid skills engineers are stuck with while downed. So many device and attack options could be used to improve the overall setup of the 3 downed skills engineers can use but it’s like no one can come up with anything to improve the skills.

So why even have a downed state set of skills for engis if they aren’t going to improve them?

Vayne:

I guess the question is, are we talking about PvE or PvP. I wouldn’t care if the downed state was removed from PvP (it won’t be anyway), but in PvE, I think it would be a big, big mistake. If nothing else it adds drama.

Hi Vayne and thanks for the reply!

My grudge with down-state only extends to PvP, as it’s perfectly fine to imbalance players over NPCs with regard to combat.

Curiously, why do you think down-state won’t be removed from PvP?
Also, while I know you don’t really care, do you think down-state should be removed and do you think I’m warranted in my opinion?

Conan.8046:

Downstates are hugely unbalanced, some classes have it sweet where as others are easy to finish. Making it the same for all classes would probably be fair, how easy is it to stomp and engineer compared to a mesmer for example.

I play engi and we have a chill, a pull, a blowout and a self res in toss elixir R, I don’t think our down state is bad at all.

And ofcourse “long battles are better” is subjective, just like “downed state is bad” is subjective. I just like having more chances for responses and teamplay. Also my necro wrecks thieves when downed, hah.

Erebos.6741:

Vayne:

I guess the question is, are we talking about PvE or PvP. I wouldn’t care if the downed state was removed from PvP (it won’t be anyway), but in PvE, I think it would be a big, big mistake. If nothing else it adds drama.

Hi Vayne and thanks for the reply!

My grudge with down-state only extends to PvP, as it’s perfectly fine to imbalance players over NPCs with regard to combat.

Curiously, why do you think down-state won’t be removed from PvP?
Also, while I know you don’t really care, do you think down-state should be removed and do you think I’m warranted in my opinion?

Reviving downed allies is too much a part of team play and solo play. A tactic with one of my builds involvs casting a healing AoE right before I go down, teleporting out and getting back in the fight. It adds dynamic to an otherwise stale battlefield. When an enemy goes down, you make it your priority to make them stay down, and some classes like warrior excel at “res punishing”, or dealing heavy DPS to those attempting to revive allies to bring them down as well. I don’t know what this game would be without the downed state.

The down state is actually a huge improvement over what other game has. When you are down, you can still affect the fight some what and contribute instead of just staying there dead and hope someone cast a resurrect on you. Which do you prefer? Able to do something or able to do nothing?

Yes, down state make it more difficult to win a 1v2 but when you are able to pull it off, the victory is even sweeter. If you are not able to finish, you don’t deserve the kill.

Yes, reviving is very powerful however, it also put the reviver at a HUGE risk to himself. You are basically a sitting duck in that few seconds and if you can’t absorb that much damage, you are downed as well. Risk vs reward, I can’t count the number of times I am downed while trying to revive.

Down state rewards teamwork, knocking off an opponent who is about to stomp an ally and then quickly reviving that ally is a very satisfying experience.

There are flaws in the down state though, such as different class have down states of different effectiveness, some are just not too good. The revival speed could also be slow down some, making reviving more of a risk.

Well after playin’ said game for quite a while ,I’ve grown to dislike the Down State. Of course I blame other games that had this Feature. Not only is it annoying, but the risk that is involved to res someone or me is not worth it, ESPECIALLY ressing me.
Personal Observation has taught me when one Foe is down a Friend is never to far away. Truth be told I would rather be killed outright then to have some Safety Net catch me only to realize that net is burning. The option to have it turned off On our (my) side would be nice.
Sure I can see why so many players out there Dislike it so much in WvW and Spvp. It’s annoying and well not that very exciting to watch. That last part of the sentence is really my personal feel for it. I come from other games where using your weapons, fist, or grenades to Execute someone has a lot of joy to it.
All in all I would really much rather have the option to turn off the Down State AKA Safety Net. But I’ve played this game for this long , so I guess…eh I dunno. It’s here to stay and I can live with it.

emikochan.8504:

And ofcourse “long battles are better” is subjective, just like “downed state is bad” is subjective.

It seems I got my wording or definitions mixed up hehe.
Sorry! And thank you for correcting me

What I meant to say is that “longer” battles don’t necessarily make them better, as value in this context is not directly proportional to longevity.

Edit: I forgot to mention. Regarding our conflict about the pace of play I reached a conclusion after pondering the question: Is slower pace a bad thing? And the answer is simply no; it’s subject to what the developers want, and only they can validate such a question.

- I was going to go over everything in my original post to show how my opinions developed over time, but yeah I hit the character cap pretty soon ;P
In hindsight it would have been nice if I reserved a followup post

p.s. I like your art

my replies in bold text.

Perspective Insight:
What in your opinion is conceptually more difficult:
a) Soloing two players with the downed state mechanic?
b)Three without?
- Which accomplishment would be more satisfying to you?
a) is more difficult and more satisfying.

What would you deem more fun – considering all mindsets:
a)Downing two players solo but dying to a third; rallying the aforementioned downed players?
b)The same scenario minus the downed mechanic?
a) is deem more fun. guild wars 2 is a team game. there is strength in numbers! if i die alone, i dun complain.

One or more players overwhelm you and defeat is inescapable. Would you:
a) Rather delay death by entering the downed state?
b) Die and sooner re-spawn?
a) i can delay them for a few more seconds. because i can.

Two contingencies square-off and you are soon plummeted into downed state. Would you:
a) Prefer an ally immediately rehabilitate you?
b) Linger there for awhile until someone is able to rejuvenate you?
c) Just die?
b) the battlefield is quite unpredictable, you never know what may happen.

The down state mechanic imho is very good mechanic badly applied!

In the battlefield, it’s ridiculous how a teammate can revive a downed player simply by the push of a button and at the same time not being penalizing for anyone! Over the last months my view has also drastically changed in regard of this matter and i have came with a good applicability over this mechanic.

In a skill related perspective, what is “downed-state” and “reviving”?
Imho, it’s the ultimate healing → Ressurection! Within this point of view how could it be changed to best be applied to battle situations?

Easy → To revive someone, it should be used as a combination of the Healing skill (6) and elite skill (10). Both get on cd as if they were normally used (with a fixed cd). Doing a thing like this, first would create a cause-effect decision in behalf of the player reviving, revive and the team! Without those skills available, it should be impossible to revive an ally!

What do you think?

As a final remark, i honestly like the Downed State mechanic. However the easiness of the players to revive the others is really depressing! Sometimes it required hard work to kill a player and to be revived with no cost… Rage….

^ downed is not dead.

and revive cost is:
- time required
- vulnerable to attacks

you can also down the same target for 4 times within a minute.
on the 4th time, the target skips downed state and is defeated immediately.

I think the downed state is interesting in PvP precisely because it is unbalancing in its very nature. The competition is now not simply about that overly strong team or that one very skilled player (though both are completely capable of triumphing and most likely will, but it will give them more of a challenge which can’t be a bad thing, surely?). There are elements of risk/reward and wild card revives thrown into the mix, which means you can’t just look at the team list and go “oh, no point playing” etc. There’s always the chance you could pull off a victory because of the downed state, and I like that.

I can see why it seems like this could be putting skilled players at a disadvantage, but think of it as just one more skill to learn and to improve upon – how to effectively manage the downed state.

That said, I do think it would make it better if a suicide option were available to those in the downed state. This goes for PvE as well – there have been many times when I know there’s no hope of me getting up (like soloing a champion for instance – no one to help and he’s still got 3/4 of his health bar full) and I just think it would be better if I could just get back to a WP now.

Hello again Deimos Tel Arin!

Firstly thank you for the feedback! I’m always appreciative of sharing opinions

So about my quiz. I focused on the restricted ability to defeating enemy players as the key motive for my hatred towards the state – a disability it attributes, and how the effectual satisfaction of the amount of players is relative to the difficultly.

The point I was trying to make is that I feel combat potency is lacking in regard to PvP – undoubtedly hindered by down-state.

I think this is because the difficulty in finishing combat is set too high to help distinguish and accredit the weight of players, a trait which would be further appreciated by the viewers.

(Kill stealing kittens hogging all the glory )

If you look at most PvP games of this type, the Respawn time after death is significantly longer. I know in League of Legends it can get up to around 2mins towards the end of a match. That is 2min where all you can do is decide what upgrade you want next.

I feel the Downed State mitigates some of this time. You either flail around uselessly, then die and respawn 10 seconds later. Or you get rezed by your team and lower the time your out of action. However the time when you are twiddling your fingers not being able to do anything at all is far lower.

In other words, when you look at this question,

One or more players overwhelm you and defeat is inescapable. Would you:
a) Rather delay death by entering the downed state?
b) Die and sooner re-spawn?

b is not really what would happen if the downed state was removed and the game rebalanced, what your more likely to see is.

One or more players overwhelm you and defeat is inescapable. Would you:
a) Rather delay death by entering the downed state?
b) Die immediately and have a significantly longer wait to be able to respawn

It blunts some of the ability of spike damage and makes fights last a little longer. 2 thieves roaming together can’t pick off one person after another as quickly. They have to actually stick around to finish them off which puts them into danger. The last thing I would want to see is 2 Thieves rolling through a whole team.

Without downed state, I feel that maps would also have to be far more spread out. To make up for the speed a team could clear a node and move to the next one.

I personally like the downed state.

Erebos.6741:

(Kill stealing kittens hogging all the glory )

hmmm what kill stealing?

if 2 team members deal enough damage to 1 target, both get a kill registered.
there is no “last hit kills” and “assists” in guild wars 2.
just “kills” which can be also interpreted as a “team kill”

team work.
no solo glory here.
strength in numbers!

Great post Ratty! You communicated your points logically and clearly

To hopefully address most of these concerns, I’m going to reference a former response of mine targetting the same issues:

Erebos.6741:

Gandarel.5091:

Downed state is ESSENTIAL FOR PVP. Since we have no healers, if you get spiked, you can get downed in a blink of an eye. With downed state, your teammates can pick you up, thus surviving the spike.

Gandarel, are you asserting that it is too difficult (e.g. not well telegraphed) or beyond player capability to counter spike damage either or for sustained intervals?

Edit (to save you a reply):

If yes, than the core of the problem lies in the lack of player capability and/or failure in design to cater for human debility.

If no, than you got outplayed, which normally inflicts a penalty (death) to advantage the player towards winning the match, promote skillful play, and give meaning to/reward combat!

[rant]

Instead GW2 implemented down-state, which degrades the capability of the afflicted, which means the fight is biased; not appointing to skill! Or a corrupt loss due to unfair vantage set up by the downed player; also not pertaining to skill!

This demotes skillful play which in-turn degrades combat and befouls the fairness of competition.

[/rant]

Ratty.5176:

Without downed state, I feel that maps would also have to be far more spread out. To make up for the speed a team could clear a node and move to the next one.

You’re exactly right with your idea to counter map control! And I don’t know if you considered this but map size and objective times are also proportional to respawn time!

That is to say small maps where players are able to navigate objectives quickly are countered via larger maps or shorter respawn times! And larger maps like those in League of Legends warrant longer times to press the advantage.

I am genuinely impressed you noted such a correlation.

Edit: I’d be interested to hear if this complicated your favour for down-state

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Erebos.6741:

(Kill stealing kittens hogging all the glory )

hmmm what kill stealing?

It was a joke to iterate my post about player merit

We understood a long time ago that repawn time and map design are what dictates the flow of combat.

In GW2 you have invincibility frames (dodging), powerful attacks that are NOT telegraphed, out of combat health regeneration, out of combat movement speed buffs, downed state and rally mechanics all mixed together in a completely incoherent mess.

It’s basically a PVE ruleset applied to PVP is what it is.

Tigirius, while I agree standardizing downed skills would go a ways to increase balance, I also think the down-state places bias; imbalances combat at the mechanical level, and thus revamping down-state should supersede in preference.

I have a few questions intent on perplexing your opinion:

Erebos.6741:

Conan.8046:

Making it the same for all classes would probably be fair, how easy is it to stomp an engineer compared to a mesmer for example.

I agree with your logic, but do you also think it’s fair to reward negative play with reviving capability?

Doesn’t this go to counter-objectify the reward in outplaying/downing enemy players?

Isn’t this penalizing higher play by subjecting players to pain through inequity at no fault of their own?

And I’ll add – do you think down-state capability is as comparatively potent as non downed combat?

Edit: I just wanted to point out that while standardizing down-state would increase balance, I’m not sure I like that idea because I see diversity as a virtue to game combat.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Reviving downed allies is too much a part of team play and solo play. A tactic with one of my builds involvs casting a healing AoE right before I go down, teleporting out and getting back in the fight. It adds dynamic to an otherwise stale battlefield. When an enemy goes down, you make it your priority to make them stay down, and some classes like warrior excel at “res punishing”, or dealing heavy DPS to those attempting to revive allies to bring them down as well. I don’t know what this game would be without the downed state.

You raise a good point, and I recognize depth and strategy as added values.

I’m holding off on suggestions until my gripe is either invalidated or distinguished among the community, but I depict the changes would have to influence the underlying mechanics due to the reasons I present.

It is within the realm of possibility to adjust a fix with similar traits, and the possibilities for added depth and strategy are near-infinite!

Cymric.7368:

When you are down, you can still affect the fight some what and contribute instead of just staying there dead and hope someone cast a resurrect on you.
Which do you prefer? Able to do something or able to do nothing?

Able to do something – of-course! ^^

The relating problem however is the degree to which you can affect the fight - it’s akin to being stunned or immobilized; disabled effectiveness.

Do you agree this is a problem?

Cymric.7368:

Yes, down state make it more difficult to win a 1v2 but when you are able to pull it off, the victory is even sweeter. If you are not able to finish, you don’t deserve the kill.

You couldn’t be more right!
I hope you’re not suggesting I implied otherwise

Cymric.7368:

Yes, reviving is very powerful however, it also put the reviver at a HUGE risk to himself. You are basically a sitting duck in that few seconds and if you can’t absorb that much damage, you are downed as well. Risk vs reward, I can’t count the number of times I am downed while trying to revive.

This is somewhat true, however because you can easily overcome the risk this nowhere near justifies the reward. This isn’t always the case however, and the degree of difficulty fluctuates depending on precursors.
Fixing this will also correct why reviving unjustly counter-objectifies the reward of outplaying/downing players

I’m happy to provide simple examples if you so wish

Cymric.7368:

Down state rewards teamwork, knocking off an opponent who is about to stomp an ally and then quickly reviving that ally is a very satisfying experience.

It seems you beat me to it!

Cymric.7368:

There are flaws in the down state though, such as different class have down states of different effectiveness, some are just not too good. The revival speed could also be slow down some, making reviving more of a risk.

I can’t stop agreeing with you!

All-in-all I mostly agree with your post, and for that I award you a like

Great thread, imho this post pretty much sums up the current state of gw2 pvp:

Calae.1738:

We understood a long time ago that repawn time and map design are what dictates the flow of combat.

In GW2 you have invincibility frames (dodging), powerful attacks that are NOT telegraphed, out of combat health regeneration, out of combat movement speed buffs, downed state and rally mechanics all mixed together in a completely incoherent mess.

It’s basically a PVE ruleset applied to PVP is what it is.

My major concerns about downed are:

- downed and stomping skills are not balanced at all
- rally often feels pretty random (its doesn’t even account how low you got in downed state) and is pretty overpowered (you can go on bashing/using skills the moment you got up, there is no penalty for being downed at all)
- it massively favors the bigger group (this is mainly a wvw concern)
- being in downed state is outright boring for some classes, without the ability to show any skill

I find LHounds suggestion about rezzing with a combination of heal+elite interesting, but i can see some balance problems here (differing cooldowns are coming to my mind). I would prefeer one in combat resurrection skill for all (with a long cooldown or one time (per fight) like gw1s signet of resurrection), out of combat rezzing is fine, but could be speeded up a bit (i love to rezz my mates – i allways enjoyed healer classes).

I think some more defensive options are needed as well, imo gw2 puts way too much emphasis on (burst) damage, with downed giving the illusion of longer fights.

Torqueblue.1945:

the risk that is involved to res someone or me is not worth it,

The risk is plenty warranted over other strategy when able, and players are more than capable of reviving.
If conditions excel beyond that capability, than it would be wise not to undertake in the task.

Torqueblue.1945:

ESPECIALLY ressing me.

It’s disheartening knowing the shortcomings of others, especially when they were trying to help/do right, and worse still when you were partly accountable.

I think we can all relate to the frustrating loss of independence that comes with the mechanic.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

team work.
no solo glory here.
strength in numbers!

Take to the following extreme as an example:

How would it affect your enjoyment of GW2 PvP if they quadrupled the base HP of all professions?
- I’m guessing negatively. But why?

It’s hard to define the feeling, but this is due to the low damage ratio which affects combat potency; belittling your effective measure

The point is to accredit player volume.

My view has always been that the downed state and dodge mechanic are too powerful in combat in comparison to the skills you have.

When it comes to the downed state, I at some point realised it was an integral part of combat and it was an expected part of it. To me, however, getting downed doesn’t feel heroic if it happens a lot. It should not be an expectation but an exception in my view. And this is were I felt it was not a good mechanic.

To me, being downed should be a warning that you are not playing your class right or are undergeared for your level, not a part of your tactics. And as it’s expected people often will just assume the problem is not themselves. I am really not against people having to learn something and the way downed works, gives me the feeling it gives people an excuse not to learn.

Cause of course if you are completely down, it’s the other players’ fault for not ressing you on time…

Arena Net wants death to be an experience instead of punishment. This design philosophy is really funny to me.

What they haven’t learnt yet is that punishment is an integral part of the experience. When you lose “something” valuable; you learn a valuable lesson in return.

Only a casual gamer would consider punishment an inconvenience. Something that’s in their way from getting their entitled reward. We have an entire generation of kids growing up without knowing what failure is.

They get medals just for showing up and participating.

mhm, didnt realise this thread was still alive… might aswell fill in this quiz thing.

What in your opinion is conceptually more difficult:
a) Soloing two players with the downed state mechanic?
b)Three without?
- Which accomplishment would be more satisfying to you?
Im probably going with A, but it completely depends. the average person you meet in wvw roaming or spvp hotjoin are too much of a kitten to evne notice their ally to go down, so most of the time you can just kite around the downed untill they die. But when 1 goes down and the other actually notices and attempts to revive, its a matter of how much you prepared for dealing with it, and if you have the right skills available to do so.
As a mesmer i have 5 options to stop reviving/finish uninterupted.
1. distortion finish, very high cooldown and i may need it somewhere else in the fight
2. temporal curtain or diversion, For interupting the reviver when they can revive faster than my finisher finishes (like when they immediatally revive when they go down)
3. stealth, its probably on cooldown due to using it alot in the normal fight, and im still vulnerable to aoe interupts, but with teh right opposing professions its an option
4. chaos storm, i put a chaos storm on the downed and finish, so i block stuff and the reviver gets dazed, when he deos get dazed, he cant finish reviving even when mashing F as soona s the person goes down.
5. burst, i just burst the reviver if they are low enough health to scare them off or to down them too.
Basically when i fight multiple players, and one is about to go down or my burst recharged, i actually look if i have skills available to deal with him when hes downed, becuase downing them only to get them back up is a waste of my burst. Sometimes i get them both to low health and just try to down them at the same time, or keep them low untill cooldowns recharge.
Also, soloing 3 players without downed would be Way too easy. I can literally wear full berserkers (in wvw, in spvp it would be slightly harder), and just insta gib one of them, then just wait for cooldowns to recharge. a full burst has abouts 66% of the damage on a zero reaction time, which means its as fast as i press buttons, and while im pressing buttons im also probably stealthed. the other 34% damage has like a 2 second reaction time, at this point the person can or can not be aware im there, but if they arent its likely to hit teh full 2 seconds. In wvw the first 66% is sometimes enough to instagib someone.
the 1vs3 would look like this: i jump in, kill someone, i jump out. 10 seconds later (im still 100%hp) i jump in again and kill the second. 10 seconds later i kill the last. its that easy (Assuming theyre not wearing full sentinels or something xD)
with teh downed system you cant jump away, because theyll be revived (assuming their team isnt full of kittens), you have to prepare for the situation with downed and up enemies and make sure you can handle it.

What would you deem more fun – considering all mindsets:
a)Downing two players solo but dying to a third; rallying the aforementioned downed players?
b)The same scenario minus the downed mechanic?
Well, when im roaming theyll revive them even though theyre defeated, it doesnt really change much in a gameplay perspective. I dont really have an oppinion on this one because both choices dont really mean anything for me :/.

One or more players overwhelm you and defeat is inescapable. Would you:
a) Rather delay death by entering the downed state?
b) Die and sooner re-spawn?
The only time defeat is inescapable is when i kitten up something ^^. Defeat is never inescapable with proper cooldown management and planning…. unless 3 thieves backstab you at exactly the same time and you had no idea they were there :’(.
Im going with A simple because i love downed states in games, from an emotional and aestethic way (some games really mess the downed system up :o).
Also, if defeat is inescapable, like when im surrounded by like 20 enemies across a 5000 range (so theres no way im blinking and stealthing out of there) then it probably wouldnt last long for them to swallow me anyway.
i stand still → 1 second later im downed → 1 second of invulnerablity → 2 seconds later dead ;D
The only time i get swallowed is when i somehow spam skills and have nothing left though, and i dont have that much passive defense so the dying part goes quite quickly :P. Spamming skills and not having anything left is a mistake on my part, and dying is kind of like an experience where you look back at mistakes, and improving somehow is always fun to me. I never want to respawn as quickly as possible because i have to reflect for atleast 5 seconds, so respawning faster isnt really a reason to skip downed.
Im going with A, because theres nothing more embarassing and screaming “you kittened up somewhere, dont do it again”, than seeing your character be swallowed by a zerg of hungry kittens.

Two contingencies square-off and you are soon plummeted into downed state. Would you:
a) Prefer an ally immediately rehabilitate you?
b) Linger there for awhile until someone is able to rejuvenate you?
c) Just die?
English isnt my main langauge and i have no idea what the difference between rehabilitate and rejuvenate is. But ill keep it simple, when im with people whom i know are good players, i know theyll notice me going down and theres a chance that theyre going to be able to revive me, and that chance is huge in an organised team where people immediatally throw aoe control effects on you to push foes away.
In a wvw zerg theres always a chance to be revived if people are near you, ofcourse, you cant control them and they may just run by you.
Ill just go with A or B, whatever they mean.

TL;DR: the downed system adds a LOT of depth, there are alot of ways you can deal with downed allies or enemies. The only complexity, which i very much appreciate, is having to manage and save your cooldowns to PREPARE for downed enemies or allies. It just changes the way you use and manage your skills.

P.S. i forgot to mention when an ally goes down, theres different things to do aswell, ill mention 1 strategy i commonly use in an organised team: As im wearing mostly berserkers (berserker amulet in Spvp), im very bad at reviving, i often rely compeltely on active defense, and i cant use any of them while reviving. Sometimes i let the team’s bunker revive, but when i see an enemy approaching i can immobilize them. just to prevent damage from my team ^^.

I’ve played a number of professions and a few downed states are quite good. I can rally nearly every time with my mesmer. Ranger & Guardian self-heals are great.

But unfortunately my main Engineer has the absolute worst downed state. #3’s CD is waaay too long, #2 makes it easier for my opponent to stomp me and though it’s an interupt has a long cast time, and #1 is just pitiful.

I thought the point of the downed state was to give a player a chance to fight his/her way out. Not so if you’re an engi.

Some good points and examples have been added:

Calae: no punishment, i pretty much feel the same. I think something like a (at least) 15 second rally dizzieness would be appreciated by me. At the current state being downed with enough allies around simply has not enough impact on the battle.

Alissah: What you describe is a perfect example for:
- the hughe emphasis on burstdamage (without many good counter meassures), along with the disengagement potential some classes have
- and (Seras gives a good example for this as well) the imbalance of the downed skills between different classes

Imho the thread identifies some of the hughe balance problems gw2’s pvp has at the moment. I really would love to get some thoughts from anets pvpteam about the topics raised here (yeah wishful thinking…).

Edit: typo

LHound.8964:

The down state mechanic imho is very good mechanic badly applied!

Judging by the rest of your post I assume you only mean reviving.

Down-state is basically passive defense because it triggers without player input and serves to mitigate damage.
- The rally, reviving and stomp mechanics are all technically child objects of this parent.

So referring to down-state can also mean any of these mechanics, as they rely on down-state to coexist

LHound.8964:

What do you think?

I agree with Bil in that I find it interesting.

To reiterate your suggestion, the idea to double abilities as modifiers to combine effectiveness sounds like a cool design concept!

My problems however are the awkwardness of pressing the key combinations – but this can be mitigated through macros, and ArenaNet would have to redesign their entire combat structure around it :P

This is also kinda similar to the system in Magika, where they eliminate the awkwardness through queuing of elements – so I can’t accredit you total ingenuity

LHound.8964:

As a final remark, i honestly like the Downed State mechanic. However the easiness of the players to revive the others is really depressing! Sometimes it required hard work to kill a player and to be revived with no cost… Rage….

So true

And don’t forget self-rehabilitation through rallying! Player skill has never before been so well rewarded - hehe

remove this completely from wvw/spvp (leave it in pve tho). Rushing to rez your teammate isn’t gameplay or a strategy, just stupid game mechanic everyone does. If downed state wasn’t in the game, more people would actually use strategies instead of mob rushing in zerker gear half braindead as currently seen on scepter/dagger eles everywhere.

Erebos.6741:

How would it affect your enjoyment of GW2 PvP if they quadrupled the base HP of all professions?

if overall damage of all professions is quadrupled as well then i dun see any problem.

anyway, downed stated, reviving from downed, reviving from defeated, stomping, etc are all important features of this game.

those people who keep on asking for their removal, should stop.
just play the game the way it is meant to be played.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Erebos.6741:

How would it affect your enjoyment of GW2 PvP if they quadrupled the base HP of all professions?

if overall damage of all professions is quadrupled as well then i dun see any problem.

How do I get you to see to reason?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

anyway, downed stated, reviving from downed, reviving from defeated, stomping, etc are all important features of this game.

I’m happy to argue this case. Please present an argument or counter to my premise.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

those people who keep on asking for their removal, should stop.
just play the game the way it is meant to be played.

Have you no sympathy?
I am hugely competitive and play to have fun. Down-state prevents this for me; it’s not my intention

Tater.3506:

The downed State is one of many reasons I quit playing this game.
ArenaNet can “Love” The downed state all they want, Its not going to make me Hate it any less, Downed state is Unbalanced and Game breaking to me and Unless it is either changed in a way that makes the game more balanced or removed I will not be coming back, There are plenty of other games I can enjoy instead of wasting time “just rolling with it” and Im sure there are plenty of other people just like me, so If ArenaNet doesn’t mind losing that chunk of its players then by all means, keep on loving it all you want.
Just my take on it.

I feel exactly the same way as Tater.

CrossedHorse.4261:

I think the downed state is interesting in PvP precisely because it is unbalancing in its very nature.

More precisely I think down-state is interesting because the strategy involved in managing a side-objective (downed player) can be very fun depending on the skill involved in successfully coming out on top.

While the fun aspect of down-state rests on a crippled player – influencing new strategy and counter-strategy, it doesn’t have to unfairly punish said player.

So I think you’re both right and wrong. Take from my that what you will.

CrossedHorse.4261:

The competition is now not simply about that overly strong team or that one very skilled player (though both are completely capable of triumphing and most likely will, but it will give them more of a challenge which can’t be a bad thing, surely?).

Are you implying combat potency is demoted to the point as to accelerate other means of winning the match? Because I feel the demotion isn’t warranted/needed.

I ask because this follows the logical consensus adhering to lessened “skilled player” value in regard to down-state aka combat, but not overwhelmingly so to supersede their worth.

CrossedHorse.4261:

There are elements of risk/reward and wild card revives thrown into the mix, which means you can’t just look at the team list and go “oh, no point playing” etc. There’s always the chance you could pull off a victory because of the downed state, and I like that.

I think the risk unfairly licenses the reward, degrading skill as a determining factor of combat.
What do you think?

CrossedHorse.4261:

I can see why it seems like this could be putting skilled players at a disadvantage, but think of it as just one more skill to learn and to improve upon – how to effectively manage the downed state.

I don’t think it lowers their vantage at all, as all players are subject to the same system, but I do think it robs individuals of their combat potential.

CrossedHorse.4261:

That said, I do think it would make it better if a suicide option were available to those in the downed state. This goes for PvE as well – there have been many times when I know there’s no hope of me getting up (like soloing a champion for instance – no one to help and he’s still got 3/4 of his health bar full) and I just think it would be better if I could just get back to a WP now.

I think down-state imbalances combat at the mechanical level, and thus revamping should supersede in preference.

Sorry for my harshness, I’m just stern in my opinion – supported by the weight of my argument.

I can’t stress enough how much I value your assessment!
Please don’t let it deter you

Why does someone need to be lying down on the floor for it to create interesting and strategic gameplay? This is completely absurd.

The down-state makes no sense what so ever no matter which angle you’re looking at it from.

1) Strategy and team play elements aside; what is it exactly that you’re doing on the floor? Fight to survive? What does that mean? I’m waving my hand in the air and healing myself? When an ally gets down next to me; they appear to be rubbing me. Rubbing me with what? What is this rubbing action doing exactly? Applying a bandage? Providing arousal?

When I look at this down-state I can’t help but laugh at how ridiculous it looks. Yes, more ridiculous than hurling a fireball from my fingertips.

2) So you think your ally lying down on the floor brings some “dramatic” or strategic team play element to combat? I don’t. Being on the floor makes me feel like a useless cripple. People have become accustomed to being revived too. When they go down; they don’t even have the courtesy to take a way point and run back. I have to take time out of my game to revive them.

Guild Wars 2 didn’t get rid of the trinity. It turned everyone into healers. You go down; someone can just come up to you and heal you. They can even revive you. Death has little consequence because anyone can cover up your bad play. Which in turn is the reason why Guild Wars 2 players are so terrible at the game. There is little reason or incentive to improve your play when someone else can just run up to you and fix your mistakes.

Erebos.6741:

How do I get you to see to reason?

it is the other way round.

I’m happy to argue this case. Please present an argument or counter to my premise.

there is no reason to in the first place. there is no need to fix what is not broken.

I am hugely competitive and play to have fun. Down-state prevents this for me; it’s not my intention

down state is part of the game and if you cannot handle it. perhaps it is not meant to be. maybe you need accept that fact.

Calae.1738:

There is little reason or incentive to improve your play when someone else can just run up to you and fix your mistakes._*

team work. strength in numbers. covering each other.

there is no glory in solo death.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Calae.1738:

There is little reason or incentive to improve your play when someone else can just run up to you and fix your mistakes._*

team work. strength in numbers. covering each other.

there is no glory in solo death.

I don’t believe an ally should have the ability to erase what an opponent has created. Which is what healing is in a nutshell. It’s an eraser.

I believe allies should have a toolbox that shields me from taking damage. If you want real skill to come into play; death needs to have a serious consequence. Death may be temporarily avoided only if an ally can skillfully shield you from a killing blow.

Running up to someone; healing and reviving them not only makes no sense at all; but is the province of unskilled players.

Calae.1738:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Calae.1738:

There is little reason or incentive to improve your play when someone else can just run up to you and fix your mistakes._*

team work. strength in numbers. covering each other.

there is no glory in solo death.

I don’t believe an ally should have the ability to erase what an opponent has created. Which is what healing is in a nutshell. It’s an eraser.

I believe allies should have a toolbox that shields me from taking damage. If you want real skill to come into play; death needs to have a serious consequence. Death may be temporarily avoided only if an ally can skillfully shield you from a killing blow.

Running up to someone; healing and reviving them not only makes no sense at all; but is the province of unskilled players.

You couldn’t be more wrong. Certain professions excel in punishing res-rushing, specifically those who bring heavy damage support. Many situations when one person goes down can result in their entire team going down when attempting to revive their allies. It’s an active decision you have to make and adds more to the playing field. If you aren’t able to make the stomp, maybe you should try learning every profession’s downed state and adapt to it.

It’s not death. Just because your health bar went to zero and is replaced by a set of skills to potentially give you a second wind doesn’t mean that it’s broken. More often than not you can easily escape death, and quite a few builds for both my warrior and thief have revolved around the downed state to allow me to fight more than 1 opponent under glassier conditions. When you find your niche in the game, you cannot discount the fact that you have a downed state. Learn to use it properly and the game will have worlds more layers of combat complexity.

it is very simple actually.

those who adapt will thrive.
while those who refuse to adapt will continue whine and complain.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Calae.1738:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Calae.1738:

There is little reason or incentive to improve your play when someone else can just run up to you and fix your mistakes._*

team work. strength in numbers. covering each other.

there is no glory in solo death.

I don’t believe an ally should have the ability to erase what an opponent has created. Which is what healing is in a nutshell. It’s an eraser.

I believe allies should have a toolbox that shields me from taking damage. If you want real skill to come into play; death needs to have a serious consequence. Death may be temporarily avoided only if an ally can skillfully shield you from a killing blow.

Running up to someone; healing and reviving them not only makes no sense at all; but is the province of unskilled players.

You couldn’t be more wrong. Certain professions excel in punishing res-rushing, specifically those who bring heavy damage support. Many situations when one person goes down can result in their entire team going down when attempting to revive their allies. It’s an active decision you have to make and adds more to the playing field. If you aren’t able to make the stomp, maybe you should try learning every profession’s downed state and adapt to it.

It’s not death. Just because your health bar went to zero and is replaced by a set of skills to potentially give you a second wind doesn’t mean that it’s broken. More often than not you can easily escape death, and quite a few builds for both my warrior and thief have revolved around the downed state to allow me to fight more than 1 opponent under glassier conditions. When you find your niche in the game, you cannot discount the fact that you have a downed state. Learn to use it properly and the game will have worlds more layers of combat complexity.

I didn’t just learn to use it; I abuse it. Just like any poorly designed mechanic before it.

-I can revive players while invulnerable.
-I can tag 30 targets and have back to back rallies.
-I can revive someone downed while taking damage from multiple players.
-I have witnessed dozens of players simultaneously rally off of 1 downed target in WvW.

I eagerly wait the next MMO that doesn’t incorporate these casual PVE rulesets.

Calae.1738:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Calae.1738:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Calae.1738:

There is little reason or incentive to improve your play when someone else can just run up to you and fix your mistakes._*

team work. strength in numbers. covering each other.

there is no glory in solo death.

I don’t believe an ally should have the ability to erase what an opponent has created. Which is what healing is in a nutshell. It’s an eraser.

I believe allies should have a toolbox that shields me from taking damage. If you want real skill to come into play; death needs to have a serious consequence. Death may be temporarily avoided only if an ally can skillfully shield you from a killing blow.

Running up to someone; healing and reviving them not only makes no sense at all; but is the province of unskilled players.

You couldn’t be more wrong. Certain professions excel in punishing res-rushing, specifically those who bring heavy damage support. Many situations when one person goes down can result in their entire team going down when attempting to revive their allies. It’s an active decision you have to make and adds more to the playing field. If you aren’t able to make the stomp, maybe you should try learning every profession’s downed state and adapt to it.

It’s not death. Just because your health bar went to zero and is replaced by a set of skills to potentially give you a second wind doesn’t mean that it’s broken. More often than not you can easily escape death, and quite a few builds for both my warrior and thief have revolved around the downed state to allow me to fight more than 1 opponent under glassier conditions. When you find your niche in the game, you cannot discount the fact that you have a downed state. Learn to use it properly and the game will have worlds more layers of combat complexity.

I didn’t just learn to use it; I abuse it. Just like any poorly designed mechanic before it.

-I can revive players while invulnerable.
-I can tag 30 targets and have back to back rallies.
-I can revive someone downed while taking damage from multiple players.
-I have witnessed dozens of players simultaneously rally off of 1 downed target in WvW.

I eagerly wait the next MMO that doesn’t incorporate these casual PVE rulesets.

You don’t tag off of downed players anymore. This was fixed in a recent PvP update to slow rank progression but also affected WvW.

Secondly, you only have 3 downs within a certainly long period of time before you’re instantly dead.

Lastly, if you’d care to screenshot both your /age and /deaths across all of your characters that’d be great, because I guarantee you that you’ll contradict your own point of “death is escapable every time”.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Erebos.6741:

How would it affect your enjoyment of GW2 PvP if they quadrupled the base HP of all professions?

if overall damage of all professions is quadrupled as well then i dun see any problem.

But damage isn’t quadrupled in my example.
So you admit quadrupling HP would be a problem:

How is it problematic?

Viking Jorun.5413:

Calae.1738:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Calae.1738:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Calae.1738:

There is little reason or incentive to improve your play when someone else can just run up to you and fix your mistakes._*

team work. strength in numbers. covering each other.

there is no glory in solo death.

I don’t believe an ally should have the ability to erase what an opponent has created. Which is what healing is in a nutshell. It’s an eraser.

I believe allies should have a toolbox that shields me from taking damage. If you want real skill to come into play; death needs to have a serious consequence. Death may be temporarily avoided only if an ally can skillfully shield you from a killing blow.

Running up to someone; healing and reviving them not only makes no sense at all; but is the province of unskilled players.

You couldn’t be more wrong. Certain professions excel in punishing res-rushing, specifically those who bring heavy damage support. Many situations when one person goes down can result in their entire team going down when attempting to revive their allies. It’s an active decision you have to make and adds more to the playing field. If you aren’t able to make the stomp, maybe you should try learning every profession’s downed state and adapt to it.

It’s not death. Just because your health bar went to zero and is replaced by a set of skills to potentially give you a second wind doesn’t mean that it’s broken. More often than not you can easily escape death, and quite a few builds for both my warrior and thief have revolved around the downed state to allow me to fight more than 1 opponent under glassier conditions. When you find your niche in the game, you cannot discount the fact that you have a downed state. Learn to use it properly and the game will have worlds more layers of combat complexity.

I didn’t just learn to use it; I abuse it. Just like any poorly designed mechanic before it.

-I can revive players while invulnerable.
-I can tag 30 targets and have back to back rallies.
-I can revive someone downed while taking damage from multiple players.
-I have witnessed dozens of players simultaneously rally off of 1 downed target in WvW.

I eagerly wait the next MMO that doesn’t incorporate these casual PVE rulesets.

You don’t tag off of downed players anymore. This was fixed in a recent PvP update to slow rank progression but also affected WvW.

Secondly, you only have 3 downs within a certainly long period of time before you’re instantly dead.

Lastly, if you’d care to screenshot both your /age and /deaths across all of your characters that’d be great, because I guarantee you that you’ll contradict your own point of “death is escapable every time”.

Elementalist
1119 deaths
1864 hours
12,458 kills in WvW

I escape death almost every time. I usually rally while in mist form; down ability 2.
In zerg fights; some players go down and rally multiple times before a stomp even goes off. Most hilarious thing I’ve ever seen.

Bil.6354:

Great thread

On behalf of everyone involved, thank you!
Personally it inspires me to continue about my message :’)

Bil.6354:

My major concerns about downed are:

- downed and stomping skills are not balanced at all
- rally often feels pretty random (its doesn’t even account how low you got in downed state) and is pretty overpowered (you can go on bashing/using skills the moment you got up, there is no penalty for being downed at all)
- it massively favors the bigger group (this is mainly a wvw concern)
- being in downed state is outright boring for some classes, without the ability to show any skill

I think some more defensive options are needed as well, imo gw2 puts way too much emphasis on (burst) damage, with downed giving the illusion of longer fights.

I gave your concerns considerable thought as I do all contentions (to lower my bias), but the only logic I can at best question is:

Bil.6354:

- it massively favors the bigger group (this is mainly a wvw concern)

While true, are you implying it’s not a prioritizing issue in SPvP?
Because I believe it also plays a forcible influence in this setting.

and:

Bil.6354:

- being in downed state is outright boring for some classes, without the ability to show any skill

Just “some” classes [/lol]?
I get that you don’t literally mean “any skill”, but down-state capability is trifling in comparison to any professions before-state ;P

Thank you for your contributing to the thread!

p.s. So much for lowering my bias xD

Hi Erebos, i just read the topic post, it is very insightful.

I also dislike this mechanic, i even abuse it sometimes by keeping people downed as long as possible so they can never res or respawn, until their massive heals kick in and i am forced to stomp them.

I agree that nothing about Downed State requires any skill or thought, it’s simply trolling, they might as well rename it to Trolling State. Once i tried stomping a thief that tele’d away, then smoke bombed, then tele’d away again, after that i thought ‘Why am i forced to waste time with this? This is not fun for me, i got that guy to 0 HP’.

I doubt ArenaNet will ever remove it, not even just for sPvP, but dam being a class with a build that can’t ensure a stomp is unsatisfying in a 1vx.

PS: I am from Adelaide too o/ it is quite cold and rainy atm isn’t it :P i love rain tho.

Tobbygnome.6793:

PS: I am from Adelaide too o/ it is quite cold and rainy atm isn’t it :P i love rain tho.

Heck-yeah it is!

I prefer the cold though because I grew up without air-conditioning ; it was easier to warm-up through layers of insulation in the winter than it was to cool-down by whatever means available in the summer ;P

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Erebos.6741:

How do I get you to see to reason?

it is the other way round.

You haven’t even presented reasoning for your claims!

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Erebos.6741:

I’m happy to argue this case. Please present an argument or counter to my premise.

there is no reason to in the first place. there is no need to fix what is not broken.

“No reason”? Are you kittening kidding me?
I’ve provided abundant reason!

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Erebos.6741:

I am hugely competitive and play to have fun. Down-state prevents this for me; it’s not my intention

down state is part of the game and if you cannot handle it. perhaps it is not meant to be. maybe you need accept that fact.

You’re right! I can’t handle the game (PvP) if down-state isn’t amended, as it undermines my values of fun and fair play to keep interest.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

team work.
strength in numbers.
covering each other.

there is no glory in solo death.

These accusations don’t even warrant an exchange of opinion because you failed to provide any premise to legitimize their validity!
Nevertheless I’ll show you the courtesy:

• Team work doesn’t rest on the intricacies of down-state mechanics… So what’s your point?
• Strength in numbers... It’s vague, but I guess the point you’re trying to make is that down-state is good because it promotes (or rather enforces) potency through number of players (scaling bias towards numbers).
  How that’s a good thing I do not know.
  How it’s a bad thing however, is because it unfairly disproportions individual combat potentiality, which discriminates against fair play and promotes zerging, which makes for hard to follow combat which is less appealing for both players and viewers alike which is bad for business.
• Covering each other is good team play. That goes without saying. But I guess I already countered your potential premise of team work to reject the need for down-state.
• “There is no glory in solo death”. Even though I don’t see how this lends credibility to down-state, I disagree with it anyway! Because there is dignity to be had in both winning and losing against fair challenges, and based on my premise that down-state is unfair, I guess you have a point!

How arguments work:

The onus was foremost on me to provide logical evidence for my claims as to prove down-state is of poor design, and therefore necessitates change!

The burden is now on the contrary to either critically counter my premise (points of reason), or concede to my argument.

Tips for discounting my premises are to either logically disprove/exploit falsehood and/or explain why it is of meek value or interest.