Guild Wars 2

xsquared.1926:

Khal Drogo.9631:

Spiuk.8421:

Khal Drogo.9631:

Zepidel.5349:

Khal Drogo.9631:

Purple Miku.7032:

Khal Drogo.9631:

Purple Miku.7032:

@Khal

False. As someone that frequently went for solo times in Arah, I can assure you that in full ascended strength runes (switched from scholar for obvious reasons) I’m still not able to hit as well as I was before the patch unless I’m pretty much camping GS, which is obviously not a viable option most of the time.

I am quite sure that in an organized group in Arah / PUG in other dungeons it doesnt make a difference. The keywords are “camping GS”.

Well if we’re on the topic of organised groups again, then GS was rendered inefficient as of yesterday’s patch and scholar still remains the dominant rune choice along with camping axe AA with an empowered build and 30 in Arms.

Not every organized group as in non PUG not super organized speedrunners runs 2xeles or thieves have might spamming. I am not sure in that scenario you can keep 25 stacks up permanently (then again not much lasts that long in a maxed out party) and maintain >90% health.

I primarily PUG dungeons and open world ie do not have an organized group so I will stick with the more conservative approach with runes of strength.

In any case how is this RIP zerker build?

only 2 eles? hahaha what a noob how is everyone going to have a FGS with only 2 eles? If your group doesn’t have 3 eles at least you aren’t even playing the game as far as I’m concerned.

FGS ele DPS > a warrior axe axe burst? Dunno havent tried it – guess Zepidel doesnt play with 99% of GW2 population.

FGS ele DPS > combined DPS of 2 warriors (against a wall).

You could say 3 if you take into account the extra FGS for your ranger/mesmer.

Against a wall. And you are telling me that FGS ele has 10K DPS fully decked out? Can you post a link with the actual numbers, as well as a comparison when walls aren’t available?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnPui3MAx8Q

Warrior has nothing against ele

You may as well play a video of COF P2 eles owning the rock. It would interesting to see the warriors numbers.

Asmodeus.5782:

xsquared.1926:

Cloudwalkernz.1328:

Hopefully with this patch will end all the zerker only lfg.

While Zerker still do the most damage, it is no longer significantly better than other builds. In fact, for some classes that based its damage on conditions or power using non zerker gears is now much better.

Even with warrior I notice with zerker gears I have lost more than 10% damage. I find using Knight now offer better Survivability without losing much damage.

Quite the opposite.

Before the nerf i was able to carry people in level 80 dungeons with my own damage, but now i just enforce a gear check to see if everyone is wearing zerkers. That way i know pretty sure the run will go smoothly.

“carry”

Maybe ‘speed up’ a bit, but I assure you they would do just fine on their own without you. And the speeding up bit is only true if you are good at dodging. Gawds, I hate full zerker warriors in my parties, on the ground all the time…

Yes- it’s much better to have bearbows that barely hit anything from 1000 meters away. Much more useful.

MotherKitten.6795:

Does anyone ever ping zerker gear and then wear something else?

You. I like you.

MotherKitten.6795:

Does anyone ever ping zerker gear and then wear something else?

This again? I don’t often run with zerk or exp only groups myself even though I usually use zerk because I don’t care if takes a little longer and its seems snobby but there enough people playing generally that you don’t need to lie you way onto a zerk group. Just make your own! Let them play how they want. Lying about it and joining a group without meeting the requirements just makes you look like an kitten .

Khal Drogo.9631:

xsquared.1926:

Khal Drogo.9631:

Spiuk.8421:

Khal Drogo.9631:

Zepidel.5349:

Khal Drogo.9631:

Purple Miku.7032:

Khal Drogo.9631:

Purple Miku.7032:

@Khal

False. As someone that frequently went for solo times in Arah, I can assure you that in full ascended strength runes (switched from scholar for obvious reasons) I’m still not able to hit as well as I was before the patch unless I’m pretty much camping GS, which is obviously not a viable option most of the time.

I am quite sure that in an organized group in Arah / PUG in other dungeons it doesnt make a difference. The keywords are “camping GS”.

Well if we’re on the topic of organised groups again, then GS was rendered inefficient as of yesterday’s patch and scholar still remains the dominant rune choice along with camping axe AA with an empowered build and 30 in Arms.

Not every organized group as in non PUG not super organized speedrunners runs 2xeles or thieves have might spamming. I am not sure in that scenario you can keep 25 stacks up permanently (then again not much lasts that long in a maxed out party) and maintain >90% health.

I primarily PUG dungeons and open world ie do not have an organized group so I will stick with the more conservative approach with runes of strength.

In any case how is this RIP zerker build?

only 2 eles? hahaha what a noob how is everyone going to have a FGS with only 2 eles? If your group doesn’t have 3 eles at least you aren’t even playing the game as far as I’m concerned.

FGS ele DPS > a warrior axe axe burst? Dunno havent tried it – guess Zepidel doesnt play with 99% of GW2 population.

FGS ele DPS > combined DPS of 2 warriors (against a wall).

You could say 3 if you take into account the extra FGS for your ranger/mesmer.

Against a wall. And you are telling me that FGS ele has 10K DPS fully decked out? Can you post a link with the actual numbers, as well as a comparison when walls aren’t available?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnPui3MAx8Q

Warrior has nothing against ele

You may as well play a video of COF P2 eles owning the rock. It would interesting to see the warriors numbers.

Group:

Solo: (Consider stronger self buffing of warriors)

For the record, our ele did about 67k dps.

Treebeard The Swift.9620:

If i have 3 hours playtime and need to grind as many dungeons as fast as possible in that time to get my next legendary – why the hell would i want people slowing me down? If a run can be done in 12 mins but takes an hour with “we must kill everything” “My staff heals are helping you all survive!” “With my pvt hammer ah guard I never get downed!”
Why? I’ve run this these dungeons hundreds of times, i don’t need to dawdle and admire the scenery, i have it memorized.
You are selfishly eating up my time by your inability to see what is most effective.
Full world mapping as a zerk warr – 37 hours.
Full world mapping as a pvt guardian – still haven’t finished after 47 hours.
Combat eats time like popcorn if you’re not specced right.

^THIS

If you don’t like the efficiency of a full zerk party, THEN DON’T JOIN. We don’t need your QQing. I doubt anyone wants to carry someone else’s load. So why should zerks have to carry PVT users? PVT is needed by people who can’t dodge. I don’t want to have to sacrifice time just so a PVT user can stay alive for a tiny bit longer because he cannot avoid damage.

BTW, it’s one thing to be an “elitist” (it’s called being efficient with time, people). It’s another to villanize zerk players and put pressure on them to carry you through dungeons that you can’t do yourselves.

PVT, clerics, ect. Get more skill, and then, perhaps you shall understand.

Allow me to throw a few truth bombs out for the lot of you:

-Zerk is still best DPS

-Zerk DPS is actually scaling much better than crit dmg was in every low level explorable, we’re seeing higher numbers and faster clears in AC, CoF, SE, etc.

-The Zerk meta is NOT GREATSWORD WARRIORS ONLY, as you all so strongly believe, (infact GS war isnt even viable anymore, GS ranger is better than GS warrior imo). Warriors provide pure damage, yes, and utility, but there IS A ROLE FOR SUPPORT AND UTILITY IN THE CURRENT ZERK META. Optimum groups have reflects, protection, weakness, vulnerability, blind, and most importantly might stacks, which brings me on to my next point… I don’t do speed dungeon tours with my guild without a guardian and an ele, or some form of substitute.

-Zerk Ele is at the top of the meta at the moment and with new strength runes that doesnt look like it’s going to change, so your power/toughness/whatever Ele is not pulling bigger DPS than a zerk ele, sorry, it’s just not happening, and maybe the only reason you think that is because you haven’t played zerk

-your PTV gear might make you feel special but all it’s doing, and all it’s current use is, is for compensating your inability to read enemy movements and dodge properly. That’s why the best players run zerk, they know how to dodge, so all that’s left is doing damage…and condition just does not compare when you’re trying to knock things down fast, because it takes time to build up conditions, while raw damage just happens straight away.

-please stop calling people who only want zerk parties “elitist jerks”, we do not owe you a carry through Arah on your PTV or clerics guardian, we do not want someone who has to sacrifice damage because they aren’t able to dodge properly, if you can’t handle the fact that people will prefer playing with better players who produce better numbers, then the “dungeon scene”, or whatever you want to call it, is probably not the place for you
sorry if i came across as rude but you all really need to realize these things

Ethics.4519:

The “zerker” only groups will now be much more strict.

You have less room for error. Say a guild group with 4 people (all zerker, optimized build) used to run dungeons in a certain time frame, they could just add a 5th of whatever (cleric guardian most likely) and just carry him. Now that they got nerfed, that 5th person NEEDS to be zerker to make up for the nerf.

The better idea would have been to stop hating on the most efficient build, and embrace it.

Exactly! From what I’ve seen, all the hating is coming from the non-zerkers in denial.

MotherKitten.6795:

Does anyone ever ping zerker gear and then wear something else?

I hope everyone gets a permaban from the game if i can catch them with this.

Dalanor.5387:

MotherKitten.6795:

Does anyone ever ping zerker gear and then wear something else?

I hope everyone gets a permaban from the game if i can catch them with this.

I love these threads because my block list gets larger and larger. And I don’t even gear check! Hehe.

I only noticed a difference in my damage because I forgot to trait.

My elementalist is still happy.

Canakun.8031:

(infact GS war isnt even viable anymore, GS ranger is better than GS warrior imo).

The old 30/25 GS, Axe+mace meta is more than viable, in fact for certain situations (soloing dungeons, running with non elite level groups) it is often a better option than the current max dps axe build.

@ The thread in general and the idea that people would ping zerk gear and then use something else. Just, why? You have the gear, use it. If you can’t use it and you need the crutch of more “tanky” gear, then don’t try and join zerk ping groups in the first place.

Fenrir.3609:

@ The thread in general and the idea that people would ping zerk gear and then use something else. Just, why? You have the gear, use it. If you can’t use it and you need the crutch of more “tanky” gear, then don’t try and join zerk ping groups in the first place.

GW2 is opposite world where the people that claim to hate elitists tend to behave more like the stereotypical ‘elitist jerk’ themselves. All while the actual “elitist” players are busy commanding pugs in WvW or just playing within their guilds. It blows my mind but it’s also fascinating to see it on these boards at the same time.

• The accepted zerker meta is accepted because of logic, facts and calculations. You aren’t allowed to claim something else is better unless you provide logic, facts and calculations.

• You aren’t allowed to define what’s fun and what’s not. For some people speedrunning might be fun.

• It’s okay to run subpar builds. Not everyone is (or should be) interested in efficiency. Just don’t lie to yourself thinking you are more effective and play with like-minded people.

• Hating “elitist jerks” because of a different playstyle makes you way more of an elitist or a jerk than the average full-zerk party. If you want other builds to be more viable, ask Arenanet to fix the mechanics.

Sincerely,
a Guardian that could care less about speedruns.

In this thread:

Now moderators handle the LFG too?
I waited on lfg for 10 minutes with the following (CoF) and no succes.
“meta builds,link gear,lvl80,no ranger/engi/necro,p1&2”

I changed the first part to “zerker only”, it got removed in 10 seconds from the LFG and now im supressed. Even the game hate zerkers.

everybody who prefer any other gear in pve then zerker must be an RPG player

Pretend being a healer who heals the group with powerful magic
Pretend to tank Lupicus
Pretend bleed every mob to death
pretend using fear and pushbackskills can control the fight
Pretend ranging the mobs needs skills since ur arrows barely miss ur target

Wish u fun with ur RPG builds

my issue isn’t anything pointed at zergers, if you want to focus on speed rather then fun then be my guess.
my issue is how ppl tread non-zergers, they are seen as useless junk under the excuse that they should not be there and simply don’t belong.
sure, there are “some” groups who play for fun but be honest, how many are actually playing for fun?

if ppl just keep their foul remarks to them self then finding a group isn’t so bothersome, the game is there to have fun and relax and that’s exactly what i am planning to do.

It’s simple Sorudo, don’t handicap yourself and you’ll find more groups that welcome you. You’re basically asking for people to make up for the wrong choices you deliberately decide to make and keep.

sorudo.9054:

my issue isn’t anything pointed at zergers, if you want to focus on speed rather then fun then be my guess.
my issue is how ppl tread non-zergers, they are seen as useless junk under the excuse that they should not be there and simply don’t belong.
sure, there are “some” groups who play for fun but be honest, how many are actually playing for fun?

if ppl just keep their foul remarks to them self then finding a group isn’t so bothersome, the game is there to have fun and relax and that’s exactly what i am planning to do.

+100

I totally agree. Although it’s not so bad in game, it’s worse in the forums. Zerkers, typically, only care about DPS and themselves. Nothing else matters to them. Because to them DPS = money, and that is the whole of the game. Period. I tried to have a discussion as to why another build wasn’t viable, but no one wanted to hear it.

And to those who think that non-zerkers are only “pretending” to tank, do damage, whatever, and are not actually doing anything, really just need to get over yourselves and stop whining about how someone else plays. Because yes we are doing damage, yes we are using healing, and keeping people in the fight a little longer, among other things. There is no emote for swinging your weapon uselessly, or activing a skill etc.

A group of non zerkers can do a dungeon just as well as a zerker group. And guess what? The result is the same! Mobs die, boss gets killed, people get loot.

Balsa.3951:

everybody who prefer any other gear in pve then zerker must be an RPG player

Pretend being a healer who heals the group with powerful magic
Pretend to tank Lupicus
Pretend bleed every mob to death
pretend using fear and pushbackskills can control the fight
Pretend ranging the mobs needs skills since ur arrows barely miss ur target

Wish u fun with ur RPG builds

Or a colorblind person who can’t see red circles that makes dodging harder. Or a person who has a not so great internet connection, who might make dodges work randomly, or a person who has a slower computer who might not be able to make dodges work and needs a bit of vitality to help out. Or a person who’s just not as good at games.

There are plenty of reasons not to go full zerker. Not everyone grew up playing games…even if I personally use/prefer zerker for my dungeon running.

How come nobody can specifically describe what builds benefit from a nerf to Zerker build? They always speak of them vaguely, then when you take them to task they get defensive and deflect.

What builds benefit from a nerf to Zerker? How are they “more viable” now when the game play mechanics haven’t changed one iota?

pdavis.8031:

Lets have a moment of silence for the zerk……

Ok now thats out of the way. Good riddance. Didn’t much care for the zerker “elitists” mentality that if you didn’t have zerk you were a horrible player and a bad person. Nothing wrong with zerk in and of itself, its just the mentality that bothered me and prompted me to go a different direction with my warrior pre patch.

Your mentality bothers me, Why do you care that I want to do speed runs and I want to play with players that like to also do speed runs, Its the way I want to play, I dont have to play with you and you dont have to play with me, if you want to play with tanks and condition players then you make YOUR OWN LFG and announce no Zerk elitist in the description.

And I will make my own LFG and say, Ping gear, Zerk only, then you know not to play with me.

DonQuack.9025:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Zerker-was-buffed-in-numerous-zones-PvE/first#post3905579

There is nothing wrong with using ptv. Its just that you arent the most efficient in one section of dungeoning. Specifically speed clearing.

There has been links of ptv and healing power no dodge groups doing dungeons easily. Heck there was one of an ele soloing spider queen.

The fight took 35 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNMltxyvAvo

---

As for other builds being more viable? You mean like the mesmer staff/ sceptre torch build.

My eyes!

MrDmajor.7084:

How come nobody can specifically describe what builds benefit from a nerf to Zerker build? They always speak of them vaguely, then when you take them to task they get defensive and deflect.

What builds benefit from a nerf to Zerker? How are they “more viable” now when the game play mechanics haven’t changed one iota?

In order for MMOs to be playable for some people, they need variety. Saying zerker and only zerker hurts the game.

This “nerf to zerker” isn’t the final step of the changes Anet will be making to the game. They’ve said that this is only the first step but it’s a require step to make the other changes.

As it stands now the game suffers from a lack of build diversity. Certain measures are being introduced to mitigate that, but they’re being introduced slowly because MMO players aren’t universally fond of change.

This is a backbone change that allows them to make other changes.

But I can’t imagine anyone would believe that having one single viable build in PvE is good for the game.

MrDmajor.7084:

How come nobody can specifically describe what builds benefit from a nerf to Zerker build? They always speak of them vaguely, then when you take them to task they get defensive and deflect.

What builds benefit from a nerf to Zerker? How are they “more viable” now when the game play mechanics haven’t changed one iota?

Players that like the “Holy Trinity” Want it in this game and sense they cant get it they do what Humans do best, Bring everyone else down emotional to there level instead of trying to understand and just have fun.

Zerk got a slight nerf, not much at all, Pre path I did 15k Pistol whip to the Golems in CoE, Post path I do 13k-14k, a slight different, 1 Sword attack difference, not much at all.

They think b.c Zerk is worst that Tanks are better, but thats not ture. Just B.c 1 thing gets worst, it doesnt mean something else is better.

A full tank team will still take 20minutes to do CoF p1, and a Full zerk team will still stake 7 min to do CoF p1, before that zerk team did it in 6min and 30 sec. (thats a funny joke get it, b.c 10% nerf haha).

So Tanks for PvE are the same, Slow, boring, and not optimal for killing fast.

sorrychief.2563:

DonQuack.9025:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Zerker-was-buffed-in-numerous-zones-PvE/first#post3905579

There is nothing wrong with using ptv. Its just that you arent the most efficient in one section of dungeoning. Specifically speed clearing.

There has been links of ptv and healing power no dodge groups doing dungeons easily. Heck there was one of an ele soloing spider queen.

The fight took 35 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNMltxyvAvo

---

As for other builds being more viable? You mean like the mesmer staff/ sceptre torch build.

My eyes!

And yet a Zerk thief and do TA Up Full solo in 40min.

pdavis.8031:

sorudo.9054:

my issue isn’t anything pointed at zergers, if you want to focus on speed rather then fun then be my guess.
my issue is how ppl tread non-zergers, they are seen as useless junk under the excuse that they should not be there and simply don’t belong.
sure, there are “some” groups who play for fun but be honest, how many are actually playing for fun?

if ppl just keep their foul remarks to them self then finding a group isn’t so bothersome, the game is there to have fun and relax and that’s exactly what i am planning to do.

+100

I totally agree. Although it’s not so bad in game, it’s worse in the forums. Zerkers, typically, only care about DPS and themselves. Nothing else matters to them. Because to them DPS = money, and that is the whole of the game. Period. I tried to have a discussion as to why another build wasn’t viable, but no one wanted to hear it.

And to those who think that non-zerkers are only “pretending” to tank, do damage, whatever, and are not actually doing anything, really just need to get over yourselves and stop whining about how someone else plays. Because yes we are doing damage, yes we are using healing, and keeping people in the fight a little longer, among other things. There is no emote for swinging your weapon uselessly, or activing a skill etc.

A group of non zerkers can do a dungeon just as well as a zerker group. And guess what? The result is the same! Mobs die, boss gets killed, people get loot.

You’re not wrong that speed is important for dungeon runs, but another important distinction is that each zerker added makes it faster, so you dodge less. Less dodges = less chances of missing a dodge.

If you are the only zerker in your party, the fights will take longer, you will have to dodge more and your chance of missing a dodge increases significantly.

Don’t think of it as non-zerkers are slowing zerkers down. Non-zerkers increase the amount of risk involved in a run for those running zerker.

Nage.1520:

MrDmajor.7084:

How come nobody can specifically describe what builds benefit from a nerf to Zerker build? They always speak of them vaguely, then when you take them to task they get defensive and deflect.

What builds benefit from a nerf to Zerker? How are they “more viable” now when the game play mechanics haven’t changed one iota?

In order for MMOs to be playable for some people, they need variety. Saying zerker and only zerker hurts the game.

This “nerf to zerker” isn’t the final step of the changes Anet will be making to the game. They’ve said that this is only the first step but it’s a require step to make the other changes.

As it stands now the game suffers from a lack of build diversity. Certain measures are being introduced to mitigate that, but they’re being introduced slowly because MMO players aren’t universally fond of change.

This is a backbone change that allows them to make other changes.

But I can’t imagine anyone would believe that having one single viable build in PvE is good for the game.

Depends on your definition of viable. You can do any dungeon with any team with mixed (even outright terrible) builds afaik.

I’m no dungeoneer and thus I could care less about the stacking spots or meta-builds. My guardian has a decent chunk of vit and toughness because I don’t always time my dodges perfectly and I also WvW often. Had no problem getting to fractals level 40 and never had to hide my build to anyone.

Faux.1937:

pdavis.8031:

Lets have a moment of silence for the zerk……

Ok now thats out of the way. Good riddance. Didn’t much care for the zerker “elitists” mentality that if you didn’t have zerk you were a horrible player and a bad person. Nothing wrong with zerk in and of itself, its just the mentality that bothered me and prompted me to go a different direction with my warrior pre patch.

Your mentality bothers me, Why do you care that I want to do speed runs and I want to play with players that like to also do speed runs, Its the way I want to play, I dont have to play with you and you dont have to play with me, if you want to play with tanks and condition players then you make YOUR OWN LFG and announce no Zerk elitist in the description.

And I will make my own LFG and say, Ping gear, Zerk only, then you know not to play with me.

I don’t care, and thats the point. What I do care about is getting flamed, kicked, insulted, and worse for not playing zerker. I get tired of people saying I’m a horrible player because I refuse to use zerk. Get tired of people saying the way I play is all in my head because I’m not atually doing anything, but “think” I am. And the group of people that think and act this way are largly Zerkers. And I’m not the only one in this boat.

You want to play your way. Fine please do, I won’t get in your way. But don’t hate on me because I want to do something different.

MrDmajor.7084:

How come nobody can specifically describe what builds benefit from a nerf to Zerker build? They always speak of them vaguely, then when you take them to task they get defensive and deflect.

What builds benefit from a nerf to Zerker? How are they “more viable” now when the game play mechanics haven’t changed one iota?

In WvW, zerkers are doing less dmg while non-zerkers still have the same access to toughness/vita.

So people running defensive builds can either enjoy the increased defense against ferocity, or add power or something else to their builds while still enjoying the same level of defensive capabilites they had pre-patch.

Scrambles.2604:

pdavis.8031:

sorudo.9054:

my issue isn’t anything pointed at zergers, if you want to focus on speed rather then fun then be my guess.
my issue is how ppl tread non-zergers, they are seen as useless junk under the excuse that they should not be there and simply don’t belong.
sure, there are “some” groups who play for fun but be honest, how many are actually playing for fun?

if ppl just keep their foul remarks to them self then finding a group isn’t so bothersome, the game is there to have fun and relax and that’s exactly what i am planning to do.

+100

I totally agree. Although it’s not so bad in game, it’s worse in the forums. Zerkers, typically, only care about DPS and themselves. Nothing else matters to them. Because to them DPS = money, and that is the whole of the game. Period. I tried to have a discussion as to why another build wasn’t viable, but no one wanted to hear it.

And to those who think that non-zerkers are only “pretending” to tank, do damage, whatever, and are not actually doing anything, really just need to get over yourselves and stop whining about how someone else plays. Because yes we are doing damage, yes we are using healing, and keeping people in the fight a little longer, among other things. There is no emote for swinging your weapon uselessly, or activing a skill etc.

A group of non zerkers can do a dungeon just as well as a zerker group. And guess what? The result is the same! Mobs die, boss gets killed, people get loot.

You’re not wrong that speed is important for dungeon runs, but another important distinction is that each zerker added makes it faster, so you dodge less. Less dodges = less chances of missing a dodge.

If you are the only zerker in your party, the fights will take longer, you will have to dodge more and your chance of missing a dodge increases significantly.

Don’t think of it as non-zerkers are slowing zerkers down. Non-zerkers increase the amount of risk involved in a run for those running zerker.

^This.

It isn’t about people being elitist. It is that zerk groups really only work if the group is zerk. And now this is even more true than before where non zerks really can’t slip in. If only one person is zerk they are going to die because they can’t kill the thing fast enough on their own before running out of endurance and other active defense. That is why people say all the time that zerk sucks because they die all the time. Well they were in a party with too many non zerks. Watch some youtube videos of what a full zerk group does. They don’t die. They finish a dungeon faster than you can imagine. I would offer to take you with me, but if you don’t run zerk, you are only increasing the chance of me dying because in one hit I can dps as much as you can in about 15.

On a side note I love the reaction people have when my group of four decides to pick up a 5th for our speed runs from lfg. Always the same at the end “Wow how did we do that so fast? You guys are good!” That reaction is what people have when they realize why it is that people zerk group.

Scrambles.2604:

pdavis.8031:

sorudo.9054:

my issue isn’t anything pointed at zergers, if you want to focus on speed rather then fun then be my guess.
my issue is how ppl tread non-zergers, they are seen as useless junk under the excuse that they should not be there and simply don’t belong.
sure, there are “some” groups who play for fun but be honest, how many are actually playing for fun?

if ppl just keep their foul remarks to them self then finding a group isn’t so bothersome, the game is there to have fun and relax and that’s exactly what i am planning to do.

+100

I totally agree. Although it’s not so bad in game, it’s worse in the forums. Zerkers, typically, only care about DPS and themselves. Nothing else matters to them. Because to them DPS = money, and that is the whole of the game. Period. I tried to have a discussion as to why another build wasn’t viable, but no one wanted to hear it.

And to those who think that non-zerkers are only “pretending” to tank, do damage, whatever, and are not actually doing anything, really just need to get over yourselves and stop whining about how someone else plays. Because yes we are doing damage, yes we are using healing, and keeping people in the fight a little longer, among other things. There is no emote for swinging your weapon uselessly, or activing a skill etc.

A group of non zerkers can do a dungeon just as well as a zerker group. And guess what? The result is the same! Mobs die, boss gets killed, people get loot.

You’re not wrong that speed is important for dungeon runs, but another important distinction is that each zerker added makes it faster, so you dodge less. Less dodges = less chances of missing a dodge.

If you are the only zerker in your party, the fights will take longer, you will have to dodge more and your chance of missing a dodge increases significantly.

Don’t think of it as non-zerkers are slowing zerkers down. Non-zerkers increase the amount of risk involved in a run for those running zerker.

Of course. I’m not denying the benefits of zerker speed runs, I just chose to go another direction.

Nage.1520:

MrDmajor.7084:

How come nobody can specifically describe what builds benefit from a nerf to Zerker build? They always speak of them vaguely, then when you take them to task they get defensive and deflect.

What builds benefit from a nerf to Zerker? How are they “more viable” now when the game play mechanics haven’t changed one iota?

In order for MMOs to be playable for some people, they need variety. Saying zerker and only zerker hurts the game.

This “nerf to zerker” isn’t the final step of the changes Anet will be making to the game. They’ve said that this is only the first step but it’s a require step to make the other changes.

As it stands now the game suffers from a lack of build diversity. Certain measures are being introduced to mitigate that, but they’re being introduced slowly because MMO players aren’t universally fond of change.

This is a backbone change that allows them to make other changes.

But I can’t imagine anyone would believe that having one single viable build in PvE is good for the game.

Right now, post-patch:

Warrior builds:

30/25/0/0/15 (solo)
20/30/0/20/0 (only warrior in the group)
30/30/0/10/0 (first warrior is using the second build so you can use this one)

Mesmer builds:

30/30/0/0/10
30/25/0/0/15
10/20/0/25/15
30/10/0/20/10

Guardian Builds:

20/25/0/0/25
15/25/0/20/10
15/15/0/20/20
10/25/0/5/25 + 5

Thief Builds:

30/30/0/0/10
25/30/0/0/15
25/30/0/15/0

I don’t play other classes to know theirs – but we have eles in guild who switch between builds depending on what the dungeon demands.

What people need to understand is that there is no such thing as a “zerker build”. You stick on berserker gear, sure. But the traits for each meta build are designed to support a group as much as possible with relevant boons and abilities while stacking as many damage modifiers as possible. If you look at guardians for example (barely touched by ferocity), their meta builds don’t dip in to the critical damage trait line at all. It takes support traits in virtues and then damage modifiers in radiance and zeal. Does “a build that supports as well as possible while utilising as many damage modifiers as possible without compromising the level of support the class can offer” make it a “zerker build”? Do other builds not support their team or something? Or do they just do it in trivial ways? Those aren’t called non-zerker builds, those are called weak or suboptimal builds.

pdavis.8031:

Scrambles.2604:

pdavis.8031:

sorudo.9054:

my issue isn’t anything pointed at zergers, if you want to focus on speed rather then fun then be my guess.
my issue is how ppl tread non-zergers, they are seen as useless junk under the excuse that they should not be there and simply don’t belong.
sure, there are “some” groups who play for fun but be honest, how many are actually playing for fun?

if ppl just keep their foul remarks to them self then finding a group isn’t so bothersome, the game is there to have fun and relax and that’s exactly what i am planning to do.

+100

I totally agree. Although it’s not so bad in game, it’s worse in the forums. Zerkers, typically, only care about DPS and themselves. Nothing else matters to them. Because to them DPS = money, and that is the whole of the game. Period. I tried to have a discussion as to why another build wasn’t viable, but no one wanted to hear it.

And to those who think that non-zerkers are only “pretending” to tank, do damage, whatever, and are not actually doing anything, really just need to get over yourselves and stop whining about how someone else plays. Because yes we are doing damage, yes we are using healing, and keeping people in the fight a little longer, among other things. There is no emote for swinging your weapon uselessly, or activing a skill etc.

A group of non zerkers can do a dungeon just as well as a zerker group. And guess what? The result is the same! Mobs die, boss gets killed, people get loot.

You’re not wrong that speed is important for dungeon runs, but another important distinction is that each zerker added makes it faster, so you dodge less. Less dodges = less chances of missing a dodge.

If you are the only zerker in your party, the fights will take longer, you will have to dodge more and your chance of missing a dodge increases significantly.

Don’t think of it as non-zerkers are slowing zerkers down. Non-zerkers increase the amount of risk involved in a run for those running zerker.

Of course. I’m not denying the benefits of zerker speed runs, I just chose to go another direction.

i’m glad that’s clear. Maybe we can stop propagating disingenuous ideas that people in zerker gear are selfish and only think of themselves.

pdavis.8031:

Zerkers, typically, only care about DPS and themselves. Nothing else matters to them.

I find this terribly untrue. Every group will have the vocal and angry people, but for the zerkers, they don’t represent the majority. Heck, there are plenty of angry and negative people on the other side of the camp who are militantly opposed to people who use zerk gear, such as yourself.

For being selfish, this is also untrue. Being able to down the monsters faster means less time they can deal damage to my teammates. Additionally, I’m bringing plenty of support to my team whether it be through banners, fury and might, or aegis, protection and reflects, or a myriad of other support buffs.

A team that synergizes well will mean everyone stays up. It usually also means sharing the same goal.

True story: Before I really started exploring getting more DPS, I was a Rabid Condi warrior. (This was also before stacking was a thing.) You know what spurred me to looking into meta builds? Fighting Subject Alpha. The exact moment was when it was down to me and one other teammate, and he got crystalled. “Get me out,” he cried while I chopped at it with my swords. I couldn’t do it before the next Alpha attack, and he went down. And that’s when I knew that being tanky in this game wasn’t helping my teammates.

On a second point, many of the people who you have disparaged are also people who have created initiatives where they will gladly mentor people seeking to learn dungeons. They give their time with the intent to help people learn about dungeons and not be afraid of them.

pdavis.8031:

And guess what? The result is the same! Mobs die, boss gets killed, people get loot.

It isn’t the same. Because I and many have a different goal than you. People have fun, run is completed quickly with few or no deaths (ideally).

What honestly works best is to just stop hating the other side. Let them do their thing, and you do your thing. Both sides would be happier if everyone stopped spewing this vitriol around.

pdavis.8031:

Faux.1937:

pdavis.8031:

Lets have a moment of silence for the zerk……

Ok now thats out of the way. Good riddance. Didn’t much care for the zerker “elitists” mentality that if you didn’t have zerk you were a horrible player and a bad person. Nothing wrong with zerk in and of itself, its just the mentality that bothered me and prompted me to go a different direction with my warrior pre patch.

Your mentality bothers me, Why do you care that I want to do speed runs and I want to play with players that like to also do speed runs, Its the way I want to play, I dont have to play with you and you dont have to play with me, if you want to play with tanks and condition players then you make YOUR OWN LFG and announce no Zerk elitist in the description.

And I will make my own LFG and say, Ping gear, Zerk only, then you know not to play with me.

I don’t care, and thats the point. What I do care about is getting flamed, kicked, insulted, and worse for not playing zerker. I get tired of people saying I’m a horrible player because I refuse to use zerk. Get tired of people saying the way I play is all in my head because I’m not atually doing anything, but “think” I am. And the group of people that think and act this way are largly Zerkers. And I’m not the only one in this boat.

You want to play your way. Fine please do, I won’t get in your way. But don’t hate on me because I want to do something different.

I understand player want to play differently and wouldnt make fun of them for that, but that doesnt stop me from trying to play with zerkers, Its not like I invited you and then told you to go zerk or go home, Im starting the search with, “Please zerk only” and if your a tank/condi and you join then yes you will be kick, not b.c your a tank/condi HONESTLY its b.c you DONT respect the other players wishes.

There’s still plenty of people who jump on “no elitists” parties and do remarkably well and often better than those who are. So you can always join or make a party for it. It’s often faster than a zerker only party who spend even more time looking for zerk only people, and dying more often than they do when it finally starts.

I personally don’t like to deal with the bad attitudes that come with any elitist zerk parties, even if I run zerk myself or switch to different gear depending on the situation. But then again I don’t like dying every 5 minutes so I can always ping zerk gear even if I happen to switch to support in order to keep the rest of the party alive.

Cercie.1025:

But then again I don’t like dying every 5 minutes so I can always ping zerk gear even if I happen to switch to support in order to keep the rest of the party alive.

i keep reading about more and more people that do this— Ping zerk gear for a zerk only group and run something else. And then everyone wonders why so many zerker only groups are so hostile.

Nage.1520:

But I can’t imagine anyone would believe that having one single viable build in PvE is good for the game.

I always wondered why a lot of people bring this up all the time. Even WoW had this. One “way to go” build. Done.
Hell even here you need to swap out some traits in some situatons to get more benefit and hendo above me pointed out this really well.

Yaki.9563:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Now there will be more zerker only LFGs because those zerker groups that previously had enough DPS to bring a non-zerker with them now won’t be able to.

Not true. There was never “enough” DPS. It’s not like groups said “hey we got 3 zerks now we can take any random geared person”. It won’t be any different than before. Or if it is, those people are idiots and not thinking logically.

Given how many dodges you have and your skill cooldowns, there is a point at which you have enough DPS to melt the boss before you run out of dodges or mitigation skills. Once you hit that DPS point, you know you can finish the run smoothly and can take anyone you wish for the rest of the party.

Dalanor.5387:

Nage.1520:

But I can’t imagine anyone would believe that having one single viable build in PvE is good for the game.

I always wondered why a lot of people bring this up all the time. Even WoW had this. One “way to go” build. Done.
Hell even here you need to swap out some traits in some situatons to get more benefit and hendo above me pointed out this really well.

Yep, one of the reasons I don’t play WoW. That’s just horrid. Guess you never played Guild Wars 1.

pdavis.8031:

sorudo.9054:

my issue isn’t anything pointed at zergers, if you want to focus on speed rather then fun then be my guess.
my issue is how ppl tread non-zergers, they are seen as useless junk under the excuse that they should not be there and simply don’t belong.
sure, there are “some” groups who play for fun but be honest, how many are actually playing for fun?

if ppl just keep their foul remarks to them self then finding a group isn’t so bothersome, the game is there to have fun and relax and that’s exactly what i am planning to do.

+100

I totally agree. Although it’s not so bad in game, it’s worse in the forums. Zerkers, typically, only care about DPS and themselves. Nothing else matters to them. Because to them DPS = money, and that is the whole of the game. Period. I tried to have a discussion as to why another build wasn’t viable, but no one wanted to hear it.

And to those who think that non-zerkers are only “pretending” to tank, do damage, whatever, and are not actually doing anything, really just need to get over yourselves and stop whining about how someone else plays. Because yes we are doing damage, yes we are using healing, and keeping people in the fight a little longer, among other things. There is no emote for swinging your weapon uselessly, or activing a skill etc.

A group of non zerkers can do a dungeon just as well as a zerker group. And guess what? The result is the same! Mobs die, boss gets killed, people get loot.

If you don’t want to be efficient, or run with people who are not “elitists”…then don’t run with us. If you don’t wana deal with us, then don’t join parties labeled “zerk” or “5k + AP” or “zerk, ping gear on join”.

Cercie.1025:

There’s still plenty of people who jump on “no elitists” parties and do remarkably well and often better than those who are. So you can always join or make a party for it. It’s often faster than a zerker only party who spend even more time looking for zerk only people, and dying more often than they do when it finally starts.

I personally don’t like to deal with the bad attitudes that come with any elitist zerk parties, even if I run zerk myself or switch to different gear depending on the situation. But then again I don’t like dying every 5 minutes so I can always ping zerk gear even if I happen to switch to support in order to keep the rest of the party alive.

Jumping into zerk parties and pinging zerk gear but not wearing it is the reason those people go down. And people like you are the reason zerk people get hostile. You seem to think you are helping them by going “support” but in actuality you are the reason they die. You aren’t doing your part in their group comp (not saying your build is useless, but in a zerk intended group it is). Zerking is a specific comp where someone who comes in without actually doing equal damage to the other players will cause zerks to die. And lying about what you are wearing only gets you so far. Trust me we know the skill animations for every class and it is easy to tell when someone isn’t damaging like they should. Your weps/your animations, your armor looks (more so before than now) the way that you move and get hit all give away that you aren’t zerk.

You aren’t fooling anyone, you are just causing more virtol all around. If you don’t play zerk then don’t expect the fast rewards that zerk provides.

Faux.1937:

pdavis.8031:

Faux.1937:

pdavis.8031:

Lets have a moment of silence for the zerk……

Ok now thats out of the way. Good riddance. Didn’t much care for the zerker “elitists” mentality that if you didn’t have zerk you were a horrible player and a bad person. Nothing wrong with zerk in and of itself, its just the mentality that bothered me and prompted me to go a different direction with my warrior pre patch.

Your mentality bothers me, Why do you care that I want to do speed runs and I want to play with players that like to also do speed runs, Its the way I want to play, I dont have to play with you and you dont have to play with me, if you want to play with tanks and condition players then you make YOUR OWN LFG and announce no Zerk elitist in the description.

And I will make my own LFG and say, Ping gear, Zerk only, then you know not to play with me.

I don’t care, and thats the point. What I do care about is getting flamed, kicked, insulted, and worse for not playing zerker. I get tired of people saying I’m a horrible player because I refuse to use zerk. Get tired of people saying the way I play is all in my head because I’m not atually doing anything, but “think” I am. And the group of people that think and act this way are largly Zerkers. And I’m not the only one in this boat.

You want to play your way. Fine please do, I won’t get in your way. But don’t hate on me because I want to do something different.

I understand player want to play differently and wouldnt make fun of them for that, but that doesnt stop me from trying to play with zerkers, Its not like I invited you and then told you to go zerk or go home, Im starting the search with, “Please zerk only” and if your a tank/condi and you join then yes you will be kick, not b.c your a tank/condi HONESTLY its b.c you DONT respect the other players wishes.

I don’t join “zerk only” groups. Never have, never will, because I don’t run zerk. Yet I have been kicked from groups that didn’t state they were looking for only zerk because I wasn’t zerk. I’ve started plently of “any welcome” groups, and been insulted and had players try to kick, or rage quit because it wasn’t a zerk party.

pdavis.8031:

Faux.1937:

pdavis.8031:

Faux.1937:

pdavis.8031:

Lets have a moment of silence for the zerk……

Ok now thats out of the way. Good riddance. Didn’t much care for the zerker “elitists” mentality that if you didn’t have zerk you were a horrible player and a bad person. Nothing wrong with zerk in and of itself, its just the mentality that bothered me and prompted me to go a different direction with my warrior pre patch.

Your mentality bothers me, Why do you care that I want to do speed runs and I want to play with players that like to also do speed runs, Its the way I want to play, I dont have to play with you and you dont have to play with me, if you want to play with tanks and condition players then you make YOUR OWN LFG and announce no Zerk elitist in the description.

And I will make my own LFG and say, Ping gear, Zerk only, then you know not to play with me.

I don’t care, and thats the point. What I do care about is getting flamed, kicked, insulted, and worse for not playing zerker. I get tired of people saying I’m a horrible player because I refuse to use zerk. Get tired of people saying the way I play is all in my head because I’m not atually doing anything, but “think” I am. And the group of people that think and act this way are largly Zerkers. And I’m not the only one in this boat.

You want to play your way. Fine please do, I won’t get in your way. But don’t hate on me because I want to do something different.

I understand player want to play differently and wouldnt make fun of them for that, but that doesnt stop me from trying to play with zerkers, Its not like I invited you and then told you to go zerk or go home, Im starting the search with, “Please zerk only” and if your a tank/condi and you join then yes you will be kick, not b.c your a tank/condi HONESTLY its b.c you DONT respect the other players wishes.

I don’t join “zerk only” groups. Never have, never will, because I don’t run zerk. Yet I have been kicked from groups that didn’t state they were looking for only zerk because I wasn’t zerk. I’ve started plently of “any welcome” groups, and been insulted and had players try to kick, or rage quit because it wasn’t a zerk party.

Although I generally dislike people who QQ on zerk, I agree that zerk people going into “any welcome” parties and kittening around is not OK. I feel that Zerk users need to run with their own kind, or stop QQing. Either one or the other.

Hah. I’ve never actually switched zerk gear. I just said I could if I wanted to. But the hostile comments just proved my point. Zerk groups are overly hostile and willing to blame everyone else but themselves. They die because they either can’t dodge, expect to kill something by zerging it with no skill, or expect everyone else to make up for their own shortcomings. Plus most of them often ragequit if they happen to wipe once. Who needs the drama? Never had a problem running zerk, just many that do are not people you want to party with more than once if at all.

Nage.1520:

Dalanor.5387:

Nage.1520:

But I can’t imagine anyone would believe that having one single viable build in PvE is good for the game.

I always wondered why a lot of people bring this up all the time. Even WoW had this. One “way to go” build. Done.
Hell even here you need to swap out some traits in some situatons to get more benefit and hendo above me pointed out this really well.

Yep, one of the reasons I don’t play WoW. That’s just horrid. Guess you never played Guild Wars 1.

I would love to hear a less nostalgic opinion about this topic, but i don’t want to derail the thread.

@God of Mustard
Than please tell the pvt crowd to not join in “zerk / meta only” groups or don’t be dishonest liars and swap out gears during runs. Thank you!

@ God of Mustard
Well said!

Now let’s all do a group hug, sing kumbya, and move on.

This patch changed nothing. Zerker + scholar runes in pve is still the best. Hands down.

I think this is a DESIGN problem, not a gear problem.

First off, we are only talking about dungeon content here. Most agree that any build is fine for open world PvE, WvW is a different beast, and PvP was explicitly left out of this discussion.

So what are our build options?

1. Direct damage (beserker): does what it says.
2. Healing: everyone is/should be self-sufficient healers in dungeons AND healing stats scale poorly.
3. Conditions: all go into one pool so there is a very low ceiling on party condition damage.
4. Crowd-Control: useless on bosses within five seconds of starting the fight.
5. Tank build: not necessary as there is no reliable aggro mechanic 99% of the time, thus no benefit to party 99% of the time. Fine for learners, that’s it.

What builds did I miss? But here’s my point: People are going to tend strongly to direct damage builds because game design actively punishes all other types of builds.

Nerf direct damage all you want, it won’t change a single thing until you change the game design. I say that after experimenting again with some of the above builds in dungeons after the patch. I went straight back to direct damage.

pdavis.8031:

I don’t care, and thats the point. What I do care about is getting flamed, kicked, insulted, and worse for not playing zerker. I get tired of people saying I’m a horrible player because I refuse to use zerk. Get tired of people saying the way I play is all in my head because I’m not atually doing anything, but “think” I am. And the group of people that think and act this way are largly Zerkers. And I’m not the only one in this boat.

You want to play your way. Fine please do, I won’t get in your way. But don’t hate on me because I want to do something different.

That last part of your post actually makes sense.
So if you don’t want to be “in the way” don’t join zerker parties and you’re good to go. Nobody will have anything to do with you and you can go about your business and zerkers will go about theirs.