Guild Wars 2

Amaimon.7823:

Q: Since when did MMO endgame content rely on players following the exact guide from sites like metabattle etc?
A: Since always, because as long as a game has variable numbers, there will always be an optimal set. Its called META: Most Efficient Tactic Available

The fact you’re making that presumption means you never played GW1, Diablo, World of Warcraft or any other RPG before?

GW2 has been very lenient in its designs. You don’t need META to play the game and enjoy both the easy and the hard content. Raids however are the peak of this difficulty designed for players to hunt this META and use it. The META will also change with new raid wings and class updates. Maybe with the next expansion we get new Elite Specs, which redefine the META again.

IN SHORT:
The game is very un-meta friendly. Meaning you can play ALMOST all content without being META which is a lot more than most games do.

You are aware that you contradict yourself? Most EFFICIENT tactic available does not mean ONLY tactic to succed available. But unfortunatly that’s what most of the metabattle users are acting alike. But as you (and others, myself included) say:

ONLY raids are designed for meta-ISH builds.

And that’s how I understood what the OP complains about- ppl not running exact meta builds but still efficient meta-ish builds being looked down on by metabattle copy&pasters.

OP:
Would you take 9 people that run nomad signet reapers with dual staves?
Wont do any damage. Wont do a lot of healing. Wont do a lot of group support.
BUT
get to play how they want because they like their non meta build more than some meta build that others are forcing on then.

Still taking them?

Do note that we wont be able to finish the raid but will have a fun time doing it. We wont use TS or something but type funny stories while we try to kite the boss around.

I hope you do want to finish the content. Otherwise I respect you that you chose to have fun over finishing the content. Bravo, but then you wont mix with lots of the people that actually want to clear the content as that is the fun part for them.
….
Sometimes running that is fun for you just does not work that well… I can tell you that this setup will end up on MANY wipes and will never clear the boss.

The Metabattle builds are a safe way for pug groups to have a shot at clearing the most challenging things in the game. Yes you can clear it with different builds. But pug groups just dont want the risk of picking someone up that will not contribute at all. At least the Meta build will contribute a bit.

You get to test different builds and setups with things like guild runs. (but in my experience you can only do that for a few weeks till people get annoyed)

Zedek.8932:

CMM.6712:

It’s your right not to. Form your own group and play how you want. BUT don’t force others to play your way either… see how that works?

Excelsior.

The thread creator allows EVERYONE to play the way they want – INCLUDING meta builds.
The meta sheeps however scrap that idea. So what is your point again against the TC?

My point was made in my post, and still stands. Name calling a segment of players isn’t helpful to anyone.

Hypairion.9210:

Menadena.7482:

I am more than happy to let the min/max people get away from the rest of us and hang out in raids or such. Unfortunately they insist on bringing their gaming culture everywhere, like gaming missionaries forcing their ideas on everyone.

The problem is when people like you force their way into raids, for example, when there are already some min \ max players…

Care to try again? The closest I have come to there is the aerodome to get the waypoint for LA completion. I have absolutely no problem with people suggesting things for a new PVE build when asked. In fact I often ask for it myself to see if the current thinking has changed due to nerfs since I last leveled that profession. What I do have a problem with are min/maxers getting in mapchat or such and criticizing builds people are using just fine, especially when they have no intention of raiding or have not stated what mode they want it for.

Menadena.7482:

Care to try again? The closest I have come to there is the aerodome to get the waypoint for LA completion. I have absolutely no problem with people suggesting things for a new PVE build when asked. In fact I often ask for it myself to see if the current thinking has changed due to nerfs since I last leveled that profession. What I do have a problem with are min/maxers getting in mapchat or such and criticizing builds people are using just fine, especially when they have no intention of raiding or have not stated what mode they want it for.

Read the OP problem. He wants to raid, but not with meta builds, hence this topic. Your first comment was totally off topic, that’s all.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Tsumiju.3071:

Since when did MMO endgame content rely on players following the exact guide from sites like metabattle etc? It seems nobody want’s to do raids unless someone has handed them the exact guide on a plate.

Neither statement is correct, as you’ve phrased them.

• People do not rely on exact builds. Some training guilds recommend different builds.
• Plenty of people who are experienced raiders run other things, once they know what works.

Tsumiju.3071:

It’s getting lame but I’m not changing a working build just to be “allowed” to participate in raids.

You’ve conflated two different ideas.

• Your build might ‘work’ in one game mode, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good choice for other modes. For example, lots of great PvE builds won’t work in WvW or sPvP or vice versa.
• It’s not about being ‘allowed’ to participate, it’s about understanding that you are not yet as experienced as the raid organizers. They know what’s required to succeed; you do not — not because you’re not clever or skilled enough, only because you haven’t seen it in action.

I’m a very experienced driver, but that doesn’t give me the knowledge to race at speeds double (or more) of what I drive on the freeway. Everything I know about being a ‘good’ driver on public roads isn’t enough to help me succeed on a race track. I rely on experts to show me what I need to do, including changing my idea of how positioning, speed when I reach a curve, and (to my chagrin) how often I need to look for other vehicles (hint for that last one: never, when I’m with a trainer).

tl;dr if you want to participate in someone else’s organized raid, then presume that they have good reasons for asking people to run certain builds. If you feel restricted by that, organize your own raid group and figure out what works by trial and error.

I love how none of you responded to this fellow’s comment. It’s the best explained response.

The only thing I’ll add to that is, in a PUG setting, the organizer doesn’t know who you are and what you’re capable off. Therefore, they try to minimize all those factors by having “gear / build” requirements, and then hoping that you can learn/understand the fight and perform your role.

The “I want to try a different build” usually is more accepting in guild raid groups that know who you are, how you perform, and generally has a level of trust in you.

Mea.5491:

Elitism. The cancer of MMOs.

No. Uneducated & inflexible people are, especially when it comes to challenging content that requires group effort. You need to be a team player.

Can I just point out that nowhere in the short process of:

1. Being asked to link my gear
2. Being kicked
3. Being told my build was wrong

was there any dialogue about being flexible. There are lots of keyboard warriors here defending the min/max meta nonsense and yes, meta is the culmination of lots of input and collating strategies. The inflexibility however was demonstrated on several occasions by the “experienced raiders” where the situation reads as “meta or do one” and THAT is what I would define as snobbery.

As for the racing example earlier in the thread, that’s also a mute point, you HAVE to be able to drive to be allowed to obtain a racing licence, which is a demonstration of ability. Where was the opportunity to demonstrate? Non existent, null, nil, nada. Nope instead the suggestion was that rather than good players they just want people that can read strategy guides and spend gold on what other people have worked out to be effective.

Sorry but if that’s how raids work here, I’ll do something more rewarding, like throwing my main off the Airship in GF repeatedly

Tsumiju.3071:

Can I just point out that nowhere in the short process of:

1. Being asked to link my gear
2. Being kicked
3. Being told my build was wrong

was there any dialogue about being flexible. There are lots of keyboard warriors here defending the min/max meta nonsense and yes, meta is the culmination of lots of input and collating strategies. The inflexibility however was demonstrated on several occasions by the “experienced raiders” where the situation reads as “meta or do one” and THAT is what I would define as snobbery.

As for the racing example earlier in the thread, that’s also a mute point, you HAVE to be able to drive to be allowed to obtain a racing licence, which is a demonstration of ability. Where was the opportunity to demonstrate? Non existent, null, nil, nada. Nope instead the suggestion was that rather than good players they just want people that can read strategy guides and spend gold on what other people have worked out to be effective.

Sorry but if that’s how raids work here, I’ll do something more rewarding, like throwing my main off the Airship in GF repeatedly

This has nothing to do with raids. Pick-up Groups (aka PUGs) will Always take the safe option of demanding meta for hard content. Remember, as has been pointed out earlier in this thread – they don’t know you or anyone else, so there’s no knowing how capable you are, and rahter than taking a chance on something that might or might not work, they go for the meta choice.

The only ways you can get around this is to either join a good raiding Guild which may show leniency toward your custom build, or start your own Groups in lfg and lead them yourself.

Now, this was true in dungeons a long time ago, and it was true in fractals (may still be, i don’t know), and it’s true for raids.

And no, I’m not one to have all the good gear and stuff, so I have opted out of raids and also high-level fractals. I’m perfectly happy playing the game in my gear and at my skill level. Do I wish I were able to get into raids? Maybe, but it just seems like a lot of “work” for a game I spend my free time on.

Tsumiju.3071:

Can I just point out that nowhere in the short process of:

1. Being asked to link my gear
2. Being kicked
3. Being told my build was wrong

was there any dialogue about being flexible. There are lots of keyboard warriors here defending the min/max meta nonsense and yes, meta is the culmination of lots of input and collating strategies. The inflexibility however was demonstrated on several occasions by the “experienced raiders” where the situation reads as “meta or do one” and THAT is what I would define as snobbery.

As for the racing example earlier in the thread, that’s also a mute point, you HAVE to be able to drive to be allowed to obtain a racing licence, which is a demonstration of ability. Where was the opportunity to demonstrate? Non existent, null, nil, nada. Nope instead the suggestion was that rather than good players they just want people that can read strategy guides and spend gold on what other people have worked out to be effective.

Sorry but if that’s how raids work here, I’ll do something more rewarding, like throwing my main off the Airship in GF repeatedly

It seems to me you have unrealistic expectations. It seems to be your asking a group of people who know how to beat a raid boss to accept a complete rookie with a build of their own choosing.

If this was a fractal or a dungeon, no problem, but the raids are just about impossible without proper cooperation and team work, and a good portion of that is the build you bring. If for example you come in with any toughness, you will mess up the tank who’s job it is to move the boss around.

If this was advertised as a training raid, again no problem as the people involved are not expecting to succeed right away. Each raid has a lot of mechanics that need to be learned and builds that make the whole thing go much better.

There is nothing snobbish about ten people who want to do a raid expecting the team to cooperate on what each person is bringing with them. If anyone makes to big a mistake it’s a wipe and you all get to die and start over again. Failing over and over again because one selfish team member brings an incompatible build (not a bad build, just not helpful to the current situation) is not an option the raid leader should allow.

The best thing to do is find a guild that raids, do some training runs, and I would be willing to bet you will come to the conclusion that your ‘perfect’ build is really only perfect for you playing open world PvE. Sure the best builds might get expensive, but certainly you can come up with an ‘acceptable’ build without spending a ton.

Avster.1935:

Mea.5491:

Elitism. The cancer of MMOs.

No. Uneducated & inflexible people are, especially when it comes to challenging content that requires group effort. You need to be a team player.

Many people who appear to be “inflexible” are not 100% that way. When forming a team and working to together it’s best to use positive team building communication skills. Most people view the term “elitism” as an attitude that is frequently extremely negative and condescending of anything that the “elitist” deems below himself/expectations/performance levels.

As I said in my previous post, if you approach someone by giving them orders, and telling them they are terribad, horrible, stupid, a noob, uneducated, casual, simply because they do not use a meta build. The player being addressed is far more likely to become defense, lash out, or become even less likely to want to change. Instead try approaching others with a friendly + positive attitude, it leads to better team work and communication.

Example: Stupid noob, terribad build. Switch to (insert build name) or gtfo noob casual. (yes it’s an extreme example, but I figure it gets the point across)
Better solution: Hey, we are really need (dps/tank/support/what ever), do you think you could use the (insert build name here)?

Both cases a build was suggested and request for the player to try. The later case will almost always have a better response.

Of course there will always be the super stubborn person who refuse to do anything different ever, which is no less snoby then the “meta” only attitude. In which case it’s probably best to just remove the player or reform. Also always try to keep in mind being a team player works all around, player A should be willing to work with player b, c and d. Each person should try to compromise at least to some extent to make the team work.

The short version of this wall of text is:
There’s very little room for error in raiding, so raid trainers and PUG commanders want people to be as prepared as possible. That means being some combination of reading up, having a build that fits into the team’s needs, and being adaptable to the team’s needs.

Tsumiju.3071:

Can I just point out that nowhere in the short process of:

1. Being asked to link my gear
2. Being kicked
3. Being told my build was wrong

was there any dialogue about being flexible.

Perhaps the people organizing that run were also rude, crude, and socially unacceptable. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t allowed to organize their team the way they want.

Tsumiju.3071:

There are lots of keyboard warriors here defending the min/max meta nonsense and yes, meta is the culmination of lots of input and collating strategies.

I’m not sure you understand what it is, if you insist on calling it “nonsense.” (And I don’t know what you mean by “Keyboard Warrior” — is that supposed to be a bad thing? Most players use the keyboard in computer games; that’s one of the genre’s big advantages over consoles.)

Tsumiju.3071:

The inflexibility however was demonstrated on several occasions by the “experienced raiders” where the situation reads as “meta or do one” and THAT is what I would define as snobbery.

When you are experienced raider, you can decide if that is “snobbery” or not. Until then, you’re evaluating the organizer’s choices without understanding why (or why not) they would require others to use certain builds.

Tsumiju.3071:

As for the racing example earlier in the thread, that’s also a mute point, you HAVE to be able to drive to be allowed to obtain a racing licence, which is a demonstration of ability.

You’ve misunderstood the analogy, then. I’m not questioning your potential nor your current skills. When I took racing training, they accepted that I was a skilled city driver; no one claimed otherwise. However, before even letting me in the car, they made me sit through training and put severe restrictions on what I was allowed to do.

Tsumiju.3071:

Where was the opportunity to demonstrate? Non existent, null, nil, nada.

Continuing the analogy, in effect you refused to accept the trainer’s restrictions. That’s why you didn’t get the opportunity to demonstrate, not because they don’t think it’s possible to use other builds.

Tsumiju.3071:

Nope instead the suggestion was that rather than good players they just want people that can read strategy guides and spend gold on what other people have worked out to be effective.

I’m afraid that’s not an accurate representation of the suggestions.

• Accept that experienced raiders have a reason for asking people to use certain builds.
• Accept that others will consider you to be a liability if you aren’t willing to accept what they’ve learned through trial and error, through failures and successes.

Part of what distinguishes a “good” player from one who is simply “skilled” or “knowledgeable” is being willing to adapt to new circumstances. There’s really no way to identify a good player ahead of time, so people look for those who have at least demonstrated a willingness to adapt and you’re adamantly insisting that you don’t have to do anything other than what you’ve already done.

Tsumiju.3071:

Sorry but if that’s how raids work here, I’ll do something more rewarding, like throwing my main off the Airship in GF repeatedly

That’s how all teams work. It doesn’t happen as often in Dungeons or Fractals because it doesn’t matter much what people run, if they know the fights. And with the right 3-4 other people, even that might not matter much.

In raids, it all matters, because there’s very little room for error.

Mea.5491:

Elitism. The cancer of MMOs.

I’d say idiots were to be honest. If everyone knew how to pull their weight, elitism wouldn’t exist.

Lahmia.2193:

I’d say idiots were to be honest. If everyone knew how to pull their weight, elitism wouldn’t exist.

People wanting to be at the top level of performance, speed, etc has no bearing on weather or not “idiots” exist. What makes someone that doesn’t meet your personal preconceived level of play, or someone who simply has a different play style/system then you and idiot?

Your idea of “idiots” wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for elitism, you are labeling those you feel don’t play up to your standards as idiots. There will ALWAYS be differences in player ability. That doesn’t make others idiots.

Lol you call raiders snobs but then you go and say anyone who uses a meta build isn’t an actual player?

You’re more toxic than any raider I’ve met

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

>…snip

I’m not sure you understand what it is, if you insist on calling it “nonsense.” (And I don’t know what you mean by “Keyboard Warrior” — is that supposed to be a bad thing? Most players use the keyboard in computer games; that’s one of the genre’s big advantages over
consoles.).

The rest of your post was awesome too, but I want to point this part out and say you rock!

-NG

I’m willing to run fun builds with people I know are good. However, I don’t know you and you’re asking me to put a lot of trust in someone I don’t know when you wanna try some special snowflake build.

maddoctor.2738:

Menadena.7482:

I am more than happy to let the min/max people get away from the rest of us and hang out in raids or such. Unfortunately they insist on bringing their gaming culture everywhere, like gaming missionaries forcing their ideas on everyone.

I think the opposite is also true. Players who don’t follow the meta want to enter min-max groups and thus we get threads like this one.

It is very possible (likely) that both are true -

which is exactly why game modes like raids need varied difficulty/tiered experiences where possible.

The meta is only an issue in areas where the game incorporates mechanics, most notably enrage timers and hard DPS checks, that are designed around a meta. Vary the experience for different playstyles and it becomes much less of an issue.

Raids, and some other content, are heavily gated so individual failures punish the team very strongly.

Difficulty is low once the raid mechanics are learned while recovery opportunities are also low. This is what I struggle with: Raids are memorization, timed/paced, and mechanical, making builds, and using them to their max, critical.

Because raids are so procedural, effort and skill have less value than repetition and build conformity.

It is difficult to separate reward rate (gold/hour) from raids. Perhaps metering rewards more by time than by achieving an all-or-nothing goal after passing multiple gates would help make raids less formidable end exclusive.

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

Menadena.7482:

I am more than happy to let the min/max people get away from the rest of us and hang out in raids or such. Unfortunately they insist on bringing their gaming culture everywhere, like gaming missionaries forcing their ideas on everyone.

I think the opposite is also true. Players who don’t follow the meta want to enter min-max groups and thus we get threads like this one.

It is very possible (likely) that both are true -

which is exactly why game modes like raids need varied difficulty/tiered experiences where possible.

The meta is only an issue in areas where the game incorporates mechanics, most notably enrage timers and hard DPS checks, that are designed around a meta. Vary the experience for different playstyles and it becomes much less of an issue.

Or just have different game modes for different play styles: open world, living story, fractals, raids.

KickzNGigglez.4958:

I’m willing to run fun builds with people I know are good. However, I don’t know you and you’re asking me to put a lot of trust in someone I don’t know when you wanna try some special snowflake build.

Again no snowflake conversation was had, it was a case of “you don’t meta, do one”. Not even a discussion about wanting to try something different.

Chaos.5072:

Lol you call raiders snobs but then you go and say anyone who uses a meta build isn’t an actual player?

You’re more toxic than any raider I’ve met

I’d say that raiders who demand that others already be equipped with meta builds before even joining the group, who’s response is an immediate kick without discussion for flexibility aren’t players a thousand times over without regret.

Tsumiju.3071:

Chaos.5072:

Lol you call raiders snobs but then you go and say anyone who uses a meta build isn’t an actual player?

You’re more toxic than any raider I’ve met

I’d say that raiders who demand that others already be equipped with meta builds before even joining the group, who’s response is an immediate kick without discussion for flexibility aren’t players a thousand times over without regret.

Then you obviously haven’t read anything in this thread and will continue getting kicked like that until you understand why.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Continuing the analogy, in effect you refused to accept the trainer’s restrictions. That’s why you didn’t get the opportunity to demonstrate, not because they don’t think it’s possible to use other builds.

Again there were no restrictions imposed, the LFG simply had looking for members with very limited titles, upon entering I said hello, was asked to link my gear, which I did. Was then booted with tells telling me I’d built my character wrong, this happened a few times with varying description parties throughout the weekend which led me to see what the general opinion was on here.

It seems the general consensus is that creating a squad entitles you to act like a moron, and the fact it’s “your” squad invokes ownership over how everyone else plays and behaves. If you want to try a raid but havn’t psychically understood that the ONLY way to play using LFG is to work out in advance which guide the raid leader is following and spend weeks acquiring the gear to adhere to their group. Or find a large enough guild that play for fun… It all sounds a bit Orwellian to me.

maddoctor.2738:

Then you obviously haven’t read anything in this thread and will continue getting kicked like that until you understand why.

So I’ll get kicked for joining, linking gear and not already having the exact build the raid leader wants already equipped? I’ll just activate my psychic powers…. As I’ve said how the hell can I tell what the raid leader needs if their only interaction is link gear, kick.

I think I’m not the one in need of a re-read

Tsumiju.3071:

maddoctor.2738:

Then you obviously haven’t read anything in this thread and will continue getting kicked like that until you understand why.

So I’ll get kicked for joining, linking gear and not already having the exact build the raid leader wants already equipped? I’ll just activate my psychic powers…. As I’ve said how the hell can I tell what the raid leader needs if their only interaction is link gear, kick.

I think I’m not the one in need of a re-read

Go to a site like metabattle and check the builds there, that’s what the leader wants already equipped, it’s not rocket science. The builds raid leaders expect are readily available for everyone to see. You read the build, acquire the build, get confident with the build and start raiding with randoms.

And to re-iterate for the thousandth time, the reason they do this is not because they are evil or as you call them “morons”. They don’t know you, they don’t care to know you, they want a speedy, efficient, as effortless as possible run, and it’s their right to want it. Therefore they expect you to have the build ready beforehand, and knowledge of the mechanics. It’s up to you to either adapt to it and be ready, or if you want to train look for a training run, there are a few around.

Tsumiju.3071:

So I’ll get kicked for joining, linking gear and not already having the exact build the raid leader wants already equipped? I’ll just activate my psychic powers…. As I’ve said how the hell can I tell what the raid leader needs if their only interaction is link gear, kick.

And how will that raid leader know you’re actually the one (a stranger) he needs for HIS raid party to succeed? Oh I get it, maybe he’s gonna use his physic power too and check your gears, kill proof, LIs, etc.

You will absolutely get kick if you don’t meet with the raid leader’s requirement. No argument needed, it’s common sense. It’s his/her own party and he/she has the responsibility for the rest of the members.

And why not post your idea for a raid party composition and builds so we can actually see if there’s substance to it to warrant any discussion? Your whole post gave off like a “carry me plz” vibe.

From reading your many posts in this thread you appear to have a belief that the other players in the group have a responsibility to you to give you a try at the potential cost of their time.
I.E instead of OK with 10 meta battle , decent skill players we can complete this in 2 hours.
You appear to be asking for:
“OK guys we have several different builds here, lets run at the first boss a few times and see can we adjust our groups build composition to succeed at the fight it might take a few tries but I’m sure we’ll do it.” time taken 4 hours if at all.

In the second example maybe it did work out, your build managed to get through the raid with the rest of the people… but you cost a combined 18 hours of time due to people having to adjust.

If on their weekly run you present people with both scenarios they will obviously choose the former over the latter. They are not interested in getting to know you or how you play, they have an objective they want to complete ideally in as little time as possible.

Tsumiju.3071:

Again there were no restrictions imposed, the LFG simply had looking for members with very limited titles, upon entering I said hello, was asked to link my gear, which I did. Was then booted with tells telling me I’d built my character wrong, this happened a few times with varying description parties throughout the weekend which led me to see what the general opinion was on here.

If you show up to a stealth mission with a grenade launcher I’m not going to wait and see what you do with it, I’d remove you because I feel you’d likely be a liability.
there’s an implicit level of build expectation when it comes to raids, as there is a small pool of successful builds.
Do remember your build has to not only work for you, it has to also work with the 9 other people on your team.

Tsumiju.3071:

It seems the general consensus is that creating a squad entitles you to act like a moron, and the fact it’s “your” squad invokes ownership over how everyone else plays and behaves. If you want to try a raid but havn’t psychically understood that the ONLY way to play using LFG is to work out in advance which guide the raid leader is following and spend weeks acquiring the gear to adhere to their group. Or find a large enough guild that play for fun… It all sounds a bit Orwellian to me.

Insulting people with name calling won’t help further your view.
It is technically an autocratic system, the commander is in charge and can kick you for any reason they so like even if they just don’t like your hairstyle.
And in this particular case, you were not running the build they wanted for their group which seems like a valid reason to remove you.

Tsumiju.3071:

maddoctor.2738:

Then you obviously haven’t read anything in this thread and will continue getting kicked like that until you understand why.

So I’ll get kicked for joining, linking gear and not already having the exact build the raid leader wants already equipped? I’ll just activate my psychic powers…. As I’ve said how the hell can I tell what the raid leader needs if their only interaction is link gear, kick.

I think I’m not the one in need of a re-read

I’ve not ever raided but aren’t raids supposed to be this difficult content that groups of players do as a team? Are you saying you showed up for this difficult, team content and you didn’t bother to research it first? After the first kick you didn’t realize it’s that build for the team effort or make your own group?

You complain about people expecting you to use a build but then you go into someone else’s team (where after the first kick you knew there was a team build) and expected them to fit your build in instead of using their team build. You are going into someone else’s group and someone else’s team build and you expect them to take the time to theory craft and fit your build in to their team build and other people to adjust their build to fit yours in. Do you not see the irony of asking that?

Pretty sure the answer to this has already been mentioned, make your own group.

There is absolutely zero obligation from the group or raid in this question to see what you have got running, it’s entirely possible that they could try giving your build a shot, but you might be a bit out of luck in the general raid LFG unless you make one yourself or join a Training group.

Hell funny story, I think it was a few years back during the time when Arah was effectively the hardest and longest content, I joined a group because they needed a Warrior, and after I zoned into the instance I noticed my party members were all colored pink. Not even joking with you, they asked me to quickly change the color of my armor to pink or I would be kicked. I would have to see if I have screenshots still but I asked if I could use Red instead and well, gg I was out of the group.

It’s not quite the same level of comparison like changing your build and gear, but the group can request whatever the hell they want since they made it. They all have agreed to the terms, and people who don’t agree the group ends up making the decision on whether to keep them or not.

Blaeys.3102:

I have been very vocal about this very topic, but from a different perspective.

Personally, I feel the issue is with the limited design of the raids themselves. While I do think playing at the highest level (which does include min/maxing) should result in the highest reward, there should be a raiding experience for people like the OP who enjoy different playstyles.

To me, the answer is variable difficulties with scaling rewards, thus offering raid experiences for people with a wider range of playstyles. This isn’t unprecedented (in fact, most of the game works this way) and is something the raid developers should strongly consider.

They tried it with fractals. There is no scaling reward because anet has opted for RnG. You’ll get offered a better loot table table the highere you go, but RnG will still play the largest role. It is why I can get an ascended chest from doing daily lvl 8 and only an ecto from doing Mai trin lvl 100.

Chad.6104:

I’ve not ever raided but aren’t raids supposed to be this difficult content that groups of players do as a team?

Yeah, that’s the original concept behind raids in MMOs in general. And that’s why I still curse the path Blizzard took with WotLK, trying to make raids accessible at any cost. It just devalued team efforts and on the other hand gave rise to that toxic attitude where people want to get everything served on a silver plate without any effort.

Or, to paraphrase some previous poster from this thread:
PUG raiders. The cancer of MMOs.

Danikat.8537:

I don’t know if this works in GW2 but in GW1 I found the simple solution to the problem was to make up a name for my build.

In that game the skills you chose were the main aspect of your build and groups would often ask you to share your skill bar in chat so they could decide whether they thought it looked good or not.

Honestly 9 times out of 10 the people making the call had no real idea what they were doing. If I told them I made the build up myself, I’ve used it in this dungeon/mission/whatever many times before and it works they’d kick me. If I told them I can’t remember what site I got it from but it’s called [whatever I felt like calling it at the time] (‘DOT + Profession name’ was a common form, or AoE + profession name) they’d accept it, no questions asked.

(Or if they were particularly observant I’d have to explain one detail, like I had a fiery bow string to go with Mark of Rodgort or yes, Dervishes do have AoE skills.)

Guess I wasn’t the only one who did that I had a Necro build that was totally off meta, but I loved it (and on one occasion in the Fire Island, kept me alive while everyone else wiped, long enough to kill enough Titans so I could get back to rez the Monk PC), and I used to tell people it came from a website.

Tsumiju.3071:

Since when did MMO endgame content rely on players following the exact guide from sites like metabattle etc? It seems nobody want’s to do raids unless someone has handed them the exact guide on a plate.

It’s getting lame but I’m not changing a working build just to be “allowed” to participate in raids.

Stop crying….MMOs like WoW used to make raids the real end-game-content….they had the end of the story from the whole expansions, best pve gear + other things and they were far harder….If you think that killing 9 bosses in 3 hours is a hard job, then I invite you to go try other mmos on internet.

Tsumiju.3071:

Oh I intend to, just wanted to gauge the response to see if there was more of a meta cadre on here or actual players!

Meta exists for a reason…..They exist because some players spend days switching between builds and trying each of them….They are not there overnight….Thea reason why people want menta in raid is because it was already confirmed that this build is the easiest for a class for that wing…..It’s about how easy is it….Nobody wants to lose 3 hours on a boss when they can kill it in 15 minutes.

Tsumiju.3071:

Since when did MMO endgame content rely on players following the exact guide from sites like metabattle etc? It seems nobody want’s to do raids unless someone has handed them the exact guide on a plate.

It’s getting lame but I’m not changing a working build just to be “allowed” to participate in raids.

Aside from the very, very high-end groups that run the content before the guides are made, this actually incredibly common. Raid mentality involves tons of “research” through YouTube videos with AMV background music and copying those who were already successful.

That’s probably the main reason why I can’t believe most raiders when they say they want a “challenge”. Most of them just want the exclusive loot after the thought-work has been done for them.

Rauderi.8706:

Aside from the very, very high-end groups that run the content before the guides are made, this actually incredibly common. Raid mentality involves tons of “research” through YouTube videos with AMV background music and copying those who were already successful.

That’s probably the main reason why I can’t believe most raiders when they say they want a “challenge”. Most of them just want the exclusive loot after the thought-work has been done for them.

Then, explain to me why many raiders I know repeat the raids several times a week, even after clearing all wings monday. Or why some raiders low man raid bosses…

Let’s pretend I’m forming a raid pug. I put up an LFG. People join. Their personal skill could range from 1-10 with the average being 5, ofcourse. I cannot control that. It’s impossible to pre-screen for skill. This is a variable outside of my control as a raid leader.

So what variables CAN I control? Basically only builds and tactics. Certain tactics only work with certain builds and vice versa. If I can ensure that our tactics are 10/10 and our builds are 10/10, we can live with 5/10 player skill and be successful.

If I didn’t screen for builds it would be leaving one easily controllable variable to chance. What kind of raid leader would I be to do that? The kind that wastes peoples’ time and wastes my own time and achieve no results.

No, I am sorry to tell you that unless you are the organizer of the raid you have no say in the matter other than opting out of the group if you refuse to be a team player. Hopefully now you understand why people want set builds: they are seeking to reduce as much variance as they can in a pug in order to maximize their chances of success. Allowing all 10 players to play whatever they want and however they want is the least successful strategy that a raid leader could pursue.

Raids are the best content for build variety, let me give my group as an example.

Wing 2: sloth i go as DH with wall of reflect and it traited for more uptime. At trio i change to Condi reaper, because its very durable and epi help killing the many bandits fast. At matthias I change to core necro with plage signet to make the life easier of everyone with condi transfer.
Wing 1: At VG condi reaper without epi because normally i’m the only reaper at the fight ( the other reaper use engi for seekers ), at Gors i use Epi as we go 2 reaper, and the shout with chilling to help hold two spirits alone. At sab i use hammer DH as the party stack on sab so perma protection is nice.
Wing 3: At Scort i use reaper because epi kill the group of mobs really fast, at KC i use Scepter DH because really big damage on burning phase, on Xera i use PS warrior for the comp 4-4-2.

You see i play a lot of builds in raids, and everyone of them have a porpuse. In any other content like fractals you just use the same build forever.

So raids are the best thing in GW2 for build divertsity, but you never played it so you dont know if your build fit the role you will fullfil or not, so you take the meta learn the encounter then you can decide if it fits or not. Or just form a group without anyone use meta and have 0 experience in raid, then come back saying how fun it was to not finish first phase of VG.

Danikat.8537:

I don’t know if this works in GW2 but in GW1 I found the simple solution to the problem was to make up a name for my build.

In that game the skills you chose were the main aspect of your build and groups would often ask you to share your skill bar in chat so they could decide whether they thought it looked good or not.

Honestly 9 times out of 10 the people making the call had no real idea what they were doing. If I told them I made the build up myself, I’ve used it in this dungeon/mission/whatever many times before and it works they’d kick me. If I told them I can’t remember what site I got it from but it’s called [whatever I felt like calling it at the time] (‘DOT + Profession name’ was a common form, or AoE + profession name) they’d accept it, no questions asked.

(Or if they were particularly observant I’d have to explain one detail, like I had a fiery bow string to go with Mark of Rodgort or yes, Dervishes do have AoE skills.)

Heh, I used to be in a speed clearing alliance and I remember we used to get people from time to time who would run a metabuild and not actually know how it worked. Was a more prevalent problem with pugs and drilled it into me not to attempt high-end content with random people. In the alliance we didn’t mind teaching people, it was more of an issue when someone would grab a build off PvX, claim they knew what they were doing and then kitten up. There’s no shame in admitting you’re new to content and these days there are plenty of Youtube videos and the like to help you understand what you’re meant to be doing before you get into things in game. When you’re not honest or lie, that’s when the problems start.

Interestingly enough, GW1 also taught me that public metabuilds aren’t the be all and end all; a lot of speed clearing guilds would use builds that weren’t public meta and get better results – a couple of guildies and I tinkered with MTSC builds to include more professions and subbed an EMo for a monk which helped when people wanted to get a feel for EMo before going into an elite area. However said players running those guild/alliance specific builds were often those who weren’t experiencing content for the first time. I remember one of my guilds starting to teach Domain of Anguish speed clear and having a set up which I think was based on LoD’s builds at the time, different to PvXWiki’s advertised meta, but we had great teachers who would talk us through how to use the builds as we went through the areas and these were specified as teaching runs. Likewise other guilds had specific team set ups for other areas like Urgoz and Underworld. Heck, I even did a 17 minute FoW with mesmer spikers which was extremely fun and a break from the HB/VoS+MoP meta.

Metabuilds are what the general populace will expect you to run, guilds and groups may have their own variations which could be ‘safer’ or faster than meta and may or may not depend on the experience of individual players and party composition. It pays to be familiar with the meta if you decide to pug or start out in an organised group as a starting point at the very least. Raids are still relatively new and I imagine in the next couple of years the meta options will expand further with new stats/elite specs coming out. While there will always be optimal builds, the number of viable builds will increase.

Personally I don’t see someone asking for metabuilds to be snobby or elitist. If you want to run non-meta form your own groups. I see threads most weeks from people saying they don’t want to run metabuilds so like-minded people are out there! You just might have a longer wait in forming a group. The worst thing you could do is join a group running meta builds, run your own thing and kitten everyone off in the process – that just hurts those who run metabuilds as well as those who don’t want to and increases the animosity between both sides. Those who do AP/LI checks are more elitist in my eyes (but hey, to each their own) and as a result I don’t join those groups, just as I didn’t in GW1 when people would ask for UW stones (which could be bought in any case) or specific title ranks. Saves my time and theirs.

tl;dr if you want to run non-meta, learn the meta first so you can safely deviate from it or make your own groups. If you want to learn in a non-hostile environment, join a guild that teaches. We have 5 guild slots after all

Rauderi.8706:

That’s probably the main reason why I can’t believe most raiders when they say they want a “challenge”. Most of them just want the exclusive loot after the thought-work has been done for them.

For me it’s the challenge of doing more than hitting 1 until something dies as you can do in most content. Probably why I’ve enjoyed getting into WvW and higher tier fractals. Even if you know what happens in a raid encounter, there’s always things that can go wrong and higher stakes if they do.

Miku.6297:

Lahmia.2193:

I’d say idiots were to be honest. If everyone knew how to pull their weight, elitism wouldn’t exist.

People wanting to be at the top level of performance, speed, etc has no bearing on weather or not “idiots” exist. What makes someone that doesn’t meet your personal preconceived level of play, or someone who simply has a different play style/system then you and idiot?

Your idea of “idiots” wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for elitism, you are labeling those you feel don’t play up to your standards as idiots. There will ALWAYS be differences in player ability. That doesn’t make others idiots.

When I say idiots I mean those people that try to join raids with no research done on how to do the raid, no knowledge of what is required from them and just generally someone who wants to be carried for free loot. I’ve helped plenty of new people get started with raids but I have no time for the previous people I’ve mentioned.

If a build works in dungeons or fractals, it does not mean it will work in raids. Unlike all other team PvE content, raids are time gated, which requires minimum amount of DPS from entire raid group. If you aren’t doing it, someone else will have to.

Not to say that straying off-meta is impossible. The question is how much damage will you sacrifice for it, and what impact that will make on the raid damage overall. Sacrificing 10% damage for ability to stay alive will likely not be noticeable. In fact I suspect that vast majority of PuGs have players with far worse damage than that. A lot of timers are generous. However for those few that aren’t, you might consider swapping your build anyway.

To see how much damage the build you are comfortable with is losing, test it against the training golem. Hard numerical data is good. Compare to damage done by meta build/rotation.

Rauderi.8706:

That’s probably the main reason why I can’t believe most raiders when they say they want a “challenge”. Most of them just want the exclusive loot after the thought-work has been done for them.

You mean once people use only meta builds then content becomes brain-dead easy? In the real world having the proper build copy-paste from a website doesn’t mean you will succeed, otherwise nobody would be complaining about Raid difficulty.

Lahmia.2193:

When I say idiots I mean those people that try to join raids with no research done on how to do the raid, no knowledge of what is required from them and just generally someone who wants to be carried for free loot. I’ve helped plenty of new people get started with raids but I have no time for the previous people I’ve mentioned.

So if a person doesn’t do research on how to play an aspect of the game that means they want to be carried for free loot? (That’s a pretty kittenumption there). Some players just like to dive in and give it a shot. That doesn’t mean they want to be carried for free loot, and it doesn’t mean they are “idiots”. They just play and think differently from you.

I agree people who want to just join and do nothing to get free loot are annoying, and they do make the game a worse place. However players that simply want to play, and not have to read a guide or walkthrough are not the same. Lumping them all together and labeling them as “idiots” simply supports the negative attitude that the OP is discussing.

I just wanted to add, I have no problem with raids requiring specific abilities, play styles etc. I also fully support people who want to read a guide/walkthrough and follow it, and request others do the same. I simply do not support the condescending and judgemental trash talk that tends to follow if someone doesn’t play a specific way.

That’s why I usually stay away from Raids. I have no interest in cookie cutter builds and playstyles. Also I really don’t want to group with people with no patience, who can’t be bothered to say “hi” and just want to get it over with as soon as quickly. I like to take my time and doing things because I find them FUN, not because it’s a race for loot.
I wish they added a way to make easy mode raids or story mode raids, where we do the dungeons but everything is much easier and of course the loot is not as good, just to be able to see what happens storywise and see the cinematics.

The people that refuse to use meta, are the normally one that if they fail the encounter they will never blame their own build, because that build is good in their mind. So they will make everyone waste hours on a boss and get nothing ( sometime not even MS as they take to little from the boss HP before the wipe ).

Why you need to go with your build, then if it fail you swap to meta? Why not do the other way, go with meta and now that you are experienced you can clearly say if your builds fits the fight/role or not.

coso.9173:

Also I really don’t want to group with people with no patience, who can’t be bothered to say “hi” and just want to get it over with as soon as quickly. I like to take my time and doing things because I find them FUN, not because it’s a race for loot.

Quite honestly that only really applies to pug raid groups. Most guilds that teach raids are the absolute opposite in my experience and from what I’ve heard from others. You’ve said raids don’t interest you though so I doubt you’d want to join a guild that teaches them though it’s worth pointing out that not all guilds that teach raids specialise in them. As for the speed aspect, that’s all down to the enrage timers for the most part which isn’t the fault of players but ANet for putting them in. I doubt many pug groups are trying to go for speed/record runs.

-sigh- Forum bugs should be eaten by Gorseval.

maybe the content itself should not require a specific build to be able to complete it?
I think that’s what the devs should be aiming for. Not having 1 (or in some cases 2) choices that are useful for PVP/raids, but a wider range of options.
condi build? pure DPS sustain build? burst DPS? all of them should be useful options for DPS, same for tanks and healers.

coso.9173:

maybe the content itself should not require a specific build to be able to complete it?
I think that’s what the devs should be aiming for. Not having 1 (or in some cases 2) choices that are useful for PVP/raids, but a wider range of options.
condi build? pure DPS sustain build? burst DPS? all of them should be useful options for DPS, same for tanks and healers.

Across all classes, there’s 15-20 meta builds you could bring.

Of course, there’s nothing stopping you from doing the raid with like-minded folks. Groups can and have beat the raids with odd compositions, like 10 necros.

But there’s also nothing wrong with pug groups expecting the best from their pugs. Meta builds are, by definition, the best builds for the content.

that’s precisely my point. there should not be one or two best builds if we have 10 or more available for each class. it takes away a lot from diversity. Builds should be reworked in a way that more of them are closely effective. instead of how it is now.