Guild Wars 2

coso.9173:

that’s precisely my point. there should not be one or two best builds if we have 10 or more available for each class. it takes away a lot from diversity. Builds should be reworked in a way that more of them are closely effective. instead of how it is now.

It’s impossible to have all builds equal some will always be “best”.

coso.9173:

that’s precisely my point. there should not be one or two best builds if we have 10 or more available for each class. it takes away a lot from diversity. Builds should be reworked in a way that more of them are closely effective. instead of how it is now.

If any build is efficient it just means the content is trivial, as you cant fail.

Raids are the only place that have build diversity as a lot of builds have a role, raids finally gave the same feeling when you got a new build and finish UW on GW1.

any build being efficient doesn’t mean the content is trivial, each build should still require a high amount of efficienty and skill, you should have to know how to bring the best of your build. no matter which one you should, that’s the point.
raids should be for skilled people, but not require a specific build for each class. simple as that.

Miku.6297:

Many people who appear to be “inflexible” are not 100% that way. When forming a team and working to together it’s best to use positive team building communication skills. Most people view the term “elitism” as an attitude that is frequently extremely negative and condescending of anything that the “elitist” deems below himself/expectations/performance levels.

As I said in my previous post, if you approach someone by giving them orders, and telling them they are terribad, horrible, stupid, a noob, uneducated, casual, simply because they do not use a meta build. The player being addressed is far more likely to become defense, lash out, or become even less likely to want to change. Instead try approaching others with a friendly + positive attitude, it leads to better team work and communication.

Example: Stupid noob, terribad build. Switch to (insert build name) or gtfo noob casual. (yes it’s an extreme example, but I figure it gets the point across)
Better solution: Hey, we are really need (dps/tank/support/what ever), do you think you could use the (insert build name here)?

Both cases a build was suggested and request for the player to try. The later case will almost always have a better response.

Of course there will always be the super stubborn person who refuse to do anything different ever, which is no less snoby then the “meta” only attitude. In which case it’s probably best to just remove the player or reform. Also always try to keep in mind being a team player works all around, player A should be willing to work with player b, c and d. Each person should try to compromise at least to some extent to make the team work.

I’m going to assume your entire reply is based around PUG raids.

I agree that the extreme example of the attitude that you used is uncalled for, but I can also state that I’ve never seen such a behavior. I usually do guild raids, but on the off chance I do pug raids, I request certain class/builds, and if they do not have them, I don’t start name calling them. I simple state what the group is looking for and if they do not have it, that I have to unfortunately replace them.

coso.9173:

any build being efficient doesn’t mean the content is trivial, each build should still require a high amount of efficienty and skill, you should have to know how to bring the best of your build. no matter which one you should, that’s the point.
raids should be for skilled people, but not require a specific build for each class. simple as that.

While I do agree with this, any build being efficient doesn’t mean something is trivial. There is almost always going to be something that is more efficient then the others. So the meta attitude will show back up.

Looking at the current trend of raids requiring or being more skewed to the use of certain play style or build for each class doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not about player skill. Learning your class, and the many build options it has and how/when to maximize them is all part of player skill.

Avster.1935:

I’m going to assume your entire reply is based around PUG raids.

I agree that the extreme example of the attitude that you used is uncalled for, but I can also state that I’ve never seen such a behavior. I usually do guild raids, but on the off chance I do pug raids, I request certain class/builds, and if they do not have them, I don’t start name calling them. I simple state what the group is looking for and if they do not have it, that I have to unfortunately replace them.

Yes my response is more directed at pug or partially pug raids (part guild members part pug). If you are in a full guild raid I would guess you have mostly like minded players so it would be less of an issue.

So you have never seen negative interactions between players and play styles on raids/dungeons/fractals?

As I said in a later post what you are doing in my opinion is the best thing. If your group wishes to run a full meta etc, simply ask the person to switch builds, if they outright refuse then just remove them. (how you ask can influence this of course. asking someone nicely to switch is one thing; telling them to switch or be removed is different).

Tsumiju.3071:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Continuing the analogy, in effect you refused to accept the trainer’s restrictions. That’s why you didn’t get the opportunity to demonstrate, not because they don’t think it’s possible to use other builds.

Again there were no restrictions imposed, the LFG simply had looking for members with very limited titles, upon entering I said hello, was asked to link my gear, which I did. Was then booted with tells telling me I’d built my character wrong, this happened a few times with varying description parties throughout the weekend which led me to see what the general opinion was on here.

It seems the general consensus is that creating a squad entitles you to act like a moron, and the fact it’s “your” squad invokes ownership over how everyone else plays and behaves. If you want to try a raid but havn’t psychically understood that the ONLY way to play using LFG is to work out in advance which guide the raid leader is following and spend weeks acquiring the gear to adhere to their group. Or find a large enough guild that play for fun… It all sounds a bit Orwellian to me.

Then you seem to be judging all raiders after the behavior of a single leader.

The general consensus among experienced raiders (and many others) is that leaders get to decide what they need to help their team to succeed. Some leaders do a good job of clarifying that in advance; some don’t.

No one in this thread is saying it’s okay to act like a moron, never mind advocating for that. You hurt your point of view by exaggerating the situation.

coso.9173:

any build being efficient doesn’t mean the content is trivial, each build should still require a high amount of efficienty and skill, you should have to know how to bring the best of your build. no matter which one you should, that’s the point.
raids should be for skilled people, but not require a specific build for each class. simple as that.

But it is for skilled players as proven over and over again, look at the slowest mathias kill with only healers, or 10 guardian or 10 reapers .
But i guess you just prefer to ignore proven facts and just press that button “Meta is the devil”. And a lot of players think they are skilled because they are not playing meta. But when they go to VG and dont stop missing greens and wipe “I failied because i refuse to sell my soul to the meta devil”.

if many builds are effective, one of them being a bit better wouldn’t mean so much and probably people would not be kicked for not having THE most effective build. in other games that’s what happens.

OnizukaBR.8537:

But it is for skilled players as proven over and over again, look at the slowest mathias kill with only healers, or 10 guardian or 10 reapers .
But i guess you just prefer to ignore proven facts and just press that button “Meta is the devil”. And a lot of players think they are skilled because they are not playing meta. But when they go to VG and dont stop missing greens and wipe “I failied because i refuse to sell my soul to the meta devil”.

In my opinion it’s not so much meta is the devil it’s the closed minded view that it’s meta or nothing.

As you stated it’s a proven fact that less than optimal raid comp and builds CAN clear the content. That’s not in question, whats in question is the attitude that anything but META is not welcome.

Failing because a player does not play the mechanics of the fight is not the same as failing because people don’t have the proper build. If you ignore all/most of the fight mechanics you will have a harder time and probably fail even with META builds…

It probably depends on luck if you happen on the wrong people who only slavishly adhere to the “recommended” section of Metabattle.
While I can see the problems of both “n00bs” and “elitists” (exaggerating both extremes), I think the problem mostly stems from the conflicting design goals of ANET.

Most “elitists” would probably take more people along if there wasn’t a hard cap on time.
I do remember the mic drop thing in the HoT developers’ video announcing “the berserker meta to be dead”. But then they design encounters where you are pressed for time and thus HAVE to bring the party compositions which crank out the most ye olde DPS or fail.
What do these guys want really? Unless they’re sure what direction they want to build in, I guess the controversy like this will never be able to be resolved.

I have 165 LI, to date. I do not run meta builds. I use my own intelligence to figure out what works and adapt. However, I started meta to prove myself to a group of people I now raid with. They know I can handle myself and do not need to ask about gear, skills, or traits. That is what you have to do. Problem is, with pugs, you will always have to prove yourself with new people.

Meta builds are there for the lazy and the, well, not skilled at reading traits and logically assessing what fits with what and where (I have a coworker that just clicks whatever he wants in trait lines and leeroy’s everything). They come up with these meta build things to make it easy and, honestly, allow for more margins of error. There is no reason you cannot, if you know how the game works, come up with compatible, budget builds that allow you to play just as well as anyone else. Just know the role you aim for and do not step on toes.

And just because I can; shameless plug, Viper tempest does more damage to a single target than reaper in the same gear. If not for epi, reaper would not be taken. (P.S. my reaper is my main)

MLinni.6109:

It probably depends on luck if you happen on the wrong people who only slavishly adhere to the “recommended” section of Metabattle.
While I can see the problems of both “n00bs” and “elitists” (exaggerating both extremes), I think the problem mostly stems from the conflicting design goals of ANET.

Most “elitists” would probably take more people along if there wasn’t a hard cap on time.
I do remember the mic drop thing in the HoT developers’ video announcing “the berserker meta to be dead”. But then they design encounters where you are pressed for time and thus HAVE to bring the party compositions which crank out the most ye olde DPS or fail.
What do these guys want really? Unless they’re sure what direction they want to build in, I guess the controversy like this will never be able to be resolved.

Actually, on some bosses, faster is better (even without a timer). This is especially true on bosses that have group wipe mechanics, because faster means you have fewer opportunities to screw them up.

MLinni.6109:

It probably depends on luck if you happen on the wrong people who only slavishly adhere to the “recommended” section of Metabattle.
While I can see the problems of both “n00bs” and “elitists” (exaggerating both extremes), I think the problem mostly stems from the conflicting design goals of ANET.

Most “elitists” would probably take more people along if there wasn’t a hard cap on time.
I do remember the mic drop thing in the HoT developers’ video announcing “the berserker meta to be dead”. But then they design encounters where you are pressed for time and thus HAVE to bring the party compositions which crank out the most ye olde DPS or fail.
What do these guys want really? Unless they’re sure what direction they want to build in, I guess the controversy like this will never be able to be resolved.

I dont’ really know what people expected when ANet announced the end of the berserker meta.

IMHO, they’ve dealed unexpectedly fine with the main problem.
Between the boon precast, the initial CC and a couple of Aegis effects, most bosses were melting before even had the chance to become a threat, so the offensive approach was better in terms of both clearing speed and survival.
That’s not the case anymore for most new instanced content. Fights are more or less lengthy, so a lack of defensive capabilities comes at some risk, and boss design has improved enough to not make several minutes fight a complete borefest.

MLinni.6109:

Most “elitists” would probably take more people along if there wasn’t a hard cap on time.

Even if there wasn’t an in-game timer to “beat” players would still go for optimal time. If I get my rewards in 20 minutes it’s far better than getting them in 2 hours. Regardless of the fight mechanics.

Pompeia.5483:

I have 165 LI, to date. I do not run meta builds. I use my own intelligence to figure out what works and adapt. However, I started meta to prove myself to a group of people I now raid with. They know I can handle myself and do not need to ask about gear, skills, or traits. That is what you have to do. Problem is, with pugs, you will always have to prove yourself with new people.

Meta builds are there for the lazy and the, well, not skilled at reading traits and logically assessing what fits with what and where (I have a coworker that just clicks whatever he wants in trait lines and leeroy’s everything). They come up with these meta build things to make it easy and, honestly, allow for more margins of error. There is no reason you cannot, if you know how the game works, come up with compatible, budget builds that allow you to play just as well as anyone else. Just know the role you aim for and do not step on toes.

And just because I can; shameless plug, Viper tempest does more damage to a single target than reaper in the same gear. If not for epi, reaper would not be taken. (P.S. my reaper is my main)

But viper tempest provides no group support…
And necros do have epidemic…
And power tempest does more damage…

Meta builds just mean the best builds. Doesn’t mean you’re lazy for using them, it means you are trying to be the best.

Tempests have plenty of group support. All reapers have is condi strip, blood is power, and sometimes transfusion (though that is a crutch).
Viper tempest can pump out might and fury with fire fields and provide vigor and regen instead if needed. They also make easy-mode tanks with infinite protection and 50-60% damage reduction.

Pompeia.5483:

Tempests have plenty of group support. All reapers have is condi strip, blood is power, and sometimes transfusion (though that is a crutch).
Viper tempest can pump out might and fury with fire fields and provide vigor and regen instead if needed. They also make easy-mode tanks with infinite protection and 50-60% damage reduction.

If you really think that you have a superior build, why not submit it to (for example) metbattle.com, and have it vetted? You might be right in which case your discovery would help the community progress

maddoctor.2738:

And to re-iterate for the thousandth time, the reason they do this is not because they are evil or as you call them “morons”. They don’t know you, they don’t care to know you, they want a speedy, efficient, as effortless as possible run, and it’s their right to want it. Therefore they expect you to have the build ready beforehand, and knowledge of the mechanics. It’s up to you to either adapt to it and be ready, or if you want to train look for a training run, there are a few around.

In my mind the biggest problem with showing up on a non-meta build is that it’s a big flashing warning sign that you are not prepared for the content. It’s not even that your build is necessarily bad – it’s that showing up on a build that deviates substantially from the meta is a strong signal that you do not know what you are doing, that you not only do not have experience with the raid but have not even done any prep work outside the game (reading a guide, watching videos). It tells me, as a raid leader, that you’re completely unprepared to raid, and unless I’m advertising specifically as a training run I would cut my losses at that point.

Even if you haven’t killed, or even fought, a boss before you have to at least do some prep if you want a regular pick-up group to take you – read a guide, watch some kill videos (especially from the perspective of the class you want to play), set your gear and build up in accordance with what you saw there, go practice it for a bit in open world / on a dummy so you have some feel for how it plays. Once you’ve done that you may not be experienced, but you are prepared, and a lot of raid leaders won’t look closer if you’re prepared.

Tsumiju.3071:

It’s getting lame but I’m not changing a working build just to be “allowed” to participate in raids.

Sure, are there are workarounds to that – show up with a Slippery Slubling title or show off your Matthias and Xera minis and I’ll cut you some slack. Experienced static groups switch up builds and have a good amount of flexibility because they understand what parts are necessary to cover their bases and which are just nice to have or substitutable; if you can demonstrate that you’re that kind of player, I’ll let you run pretty much whatever you want in a raid, because especially when pugging you’ll need your experienced players to be flexible and to swap roles and skills to cover the gaps in what your newer and less flexible members can offer.

What, you don’t have those things? You mean you aren’t a seasoned raider that has killed all of the bosses several times and has experience seeing what works and what doesn’t? You aren’t familiar with several of the roles and how they play in the different fights? Then don’t talk to me about how you’re bringing a ‘working build’ that my team needs to build around. You don’t have any of the metacognitive knowledge necessary to be in that conversation.

Zohane.7208:

Pompeia.5483:

Tempests have plenty of group support. All reapers have is condi strip, blood is power, and sometimes transfusion (though that is a crutch).
Viper tempest can pump out might and fury with fire fields and provide vigor and regen instead if needed. They also make easy-mode tanks with infinite protection and 50-60% damage reduction.

If you really think that you have a superior build, why not submit it to (for example) metbattle.com, and have it vetted? You might be right in which case your discovery would help the community progress

I was not aware of this! Thank you for the idea, I will look into it when I get home! I have always wanted to share builds and enlighten others but not one to make my own site.

Pompeia.5483:

Tempests have plenty of group support. All reapers have is condi strip, blood is power, and sometimes transfusion (though that is a crutch).
Viper tempest can pump out might and fury with fire fields and provide vigor and regen instead if needed. They also make easy-mode tanks with infinite protection and 50-60% damage reduction.

I don’t mind if you play viper tempest. But groups take viper reapers over tempest for a reason.

Full disclosure: I’m not 100% what the viper tempest build is, but I’ll assume it uses dagger. I’m going to ignore tanking builds since reaper can also tank with minimal build changes.

On VG: Reapers can epi bounce and maintain damage at range for green circles.

On Gor: Reapers can epi adds and bounce and provide good cc

On Sab: Reapers can epi adds, and bounce, and kite flak if needed

On sloth: Reapers can epi adds, and bounce, and cc, and pull conditions, and projectile block

On trio: Reapers can epi adds, and bounce

On matt: Reapers can pull conditions, cc, and transfusion

On escort : Reapers can epi, and hold back wars

On KC: No use for reapers here

On Xera: Reapers can pull conditions, epi and bounce, and cc

Yes, Viper ele may be able to provide might and fury (if they can manage the blast). But other classes do it better. Again, it’s ok to like viper ele, but reapers are generally superior.

Absurdo.8309:

Pompeia.5483:

Tempests have plenty of group support. All reapers have is condi strip, blood is power, and sometimes transfusion (though that is a crutch).
Viper tempest can pump out might and fury with fire fields and provide vigor and regen instead if needed. They also make easy-mode tanks with infinite protection and 50-60% damage reduction.

I don’t mind if you play viper tempest. But groups take viper reapers over tempest for a reason.

Full disclosure: I’m not 100% what the viper tempest build is, but I’ll assume it uses dagger. I’m going to ignore tanking builds since reaper can also tank with minimal build changes.

On VG: Reapers can epi bounce and maintain damage at range for green circles.

On Gor: Reapers can epi adds and bounce and provide good cc

On Sab: Reapers can epi adds, and bounce, and kite flak if needed

On sloth: Reapers can epi adds, and bounce, and cc, and pull conditions, and projectile block

On trio: Reapers can epi adds, and bounce

On matt: Reapers can pull conditions, cc, and transfusion

On escort : Reapers can epi, and hold back wars

On KC: No use for reapers here

On Xera: Reapers can pull conditions, epi and bounce, and cc

Yes, Viper ele may be able to provide might and fury (if they can manage the blast). But other classes do it better. Again, it’s ok to like viper ele, but reapers are generally superior.

I actually use sceptre because both auto attacks are condi instead of just focusing on bleeds that dagger does. Then swap back and forth with fire and earth. I run circles on VG all the time when not also tanking. And it is only two traits different to tank and change earrings from viper to commander or even just a trailblazer amulet.

I guess I should look at dagger as well but I have always associated it with power more. Will see what it does to my dps but it does close off a lot of options. Condi damage is greater and equally plentiful on sceptre.

I have been told focus has more condi than warhorn but it lacks the fire field and additional bleed so I ignored that statement.

And, again, I pointed out it is better than reaper if epidemic is not counted (and we all know that nerf is coming). And if you already have two Reapers, no condi ps, no condi druid, or cannot get a second reaper, it will be better for single target. Places where there are adds, you would always want reaper for epi, even if they reduced targets to three or something.

On the other hand, I do carry enough gear on my tempest to do condi, staff, fresh air, auramancer, tank, and staff heal. If I had legendary armour with rune selection, it would free up a lot of bag space