Guild Wars 2

IndigoSundown.5419:

• As far as efficiency players and laissez-faire players go, both groups would be better off if they only played within their own demographic. They really shouldn’t mix, because they are not after the same thing.

I agree, though it isn’t quite that simple. I have a fairly hardcore mindset, but if you ask me whether I care about efficiency, my answer may vary. Sometimes I care a lot, particularly if I have a goal I want to accomplish; for example, if I am trying to level quickly in EotM, I’m going to be more bothered by a derailed ktrain, than if I go in there to enjoy myself and get some karma on a level 80 character.

So it’s not as if there are two unchanging mindsets that we can segregate with ease.

That said, I do think it’d be neat if the LFG tool had a checkbox for group formation, where you could choose something like “hardcore” or “casual” run. It still wouldn’t solve issues of mismatched groups as it would be optional, but it might do a better job of directing people into the space where they want to be in that moment.

They can add additional rewards for speed-clears or leaders-boards (lol) so those seeking greater efficiency can reap greater rewards. Promoting certain play style this way instead of using tools to enforce it would work out better I think. This way, people would actually want to wear full zerk/skip mobs, etc. Rewards can be tailored to fit those specific competitive individuals so ez-going players don’t feel pressured.

Labjax.2465:

IndigoSundown.5419:

• As far as efficiency players and laissez-faire players go, both groups would be better off if they only played within their own demographic. They really shouldn’t mix, because they are not after the same thing.

I agree, though it isn’t quite that simple. I have a fairly hardcore mindset, but if you ask me whether I care about efficiency, my answer may vary. Sometimes I care a lot, particularly if I have a goal I want to accomplish; for example, if I am trying to level quickly in EotM, I’m going to be more bothered by a derailed ktrain, than if I go in there to enjoy myself and get some karma on a level 80 character.

So it’s not as if there are two unchanging mindsets that we can segregate with ease.

That said, I do think it’d be neat if the LFG tool had a checkbox for group formation, where you could choose something like “hardcore” or “casual” run. It still wouldn’t solve issues of mismatched groups as it would be optional, but it might do a better job of directing people into the space where they want to be in that moment.

In the case of someone who straddles the gasp, as it were, it would be up to that person to know which he’s going for when. If I were to join a dungeon run advertising, “Efficiency run.” I’d be in the proper build, and expect to follow whatever tactics the team wanted to use. If I joined a guild run where I knew everyone was doing as they pleased, I would not push the efficiency meta. As far as open world, I do not believe that expecting efficiency in such a setting is advisable, and in truth it is rarely needed.

Yenn.9185:

Algreg.3629:

as always the adequate reply to this request is “other people´s stats are non of your kitten business”.

If you are in my party, then it’s my business.

nah, even though I usually follow mmorpg´s “metas” and try to max out my characters in the best way and I am not a friend of “flower sniffing”, it is still not your business. I also consider joining parties when not fulfilling their requests really rude. Still, “your” party does not “belong” to you, my stats are none of your business, period. Pay me RL money, maybe I work according to your wishes then.

Algreg.3629:

Yenn.9185:

Algreg.3629:

as always the adequate reply to this request is “other people´s stats are non of your kitten business”.

If you are in my party, then it’s my business.

nah, even though I usually follow mmorpg´s “metas” and try to max out my characters in the best way and I am not a friend of “flower sniffing”, it is still not your business. I also consider joining parties when not fulfilling their requests really rude. Still, “your” party does not “belong” to you, my stats are none of your business, period. Pay me RL money, maybe I work according to your wishes then.

With that self-centered attitude, it is apparent working in team is not your strong suit. And no, you do not have to pay me or the party organizer any money. You do not work for him or her, you work for the team.

I think ANet wouldn’t be too keen on this because it seems they value heavily on the idea that “any build is viable”. In addition to balance, that’s the impression I got with their decision to lock weapon bars.

I’d rather have this than an inspect feature, though.

You know, I used to be opposed to any sort of DPS meter, but I think I’ve changed my mind.

If ANet put one into the game, you know that there would be two places the information would go. To the player, and to ANet. Basically, it would quickly and constantly show them the most powerful damage builds, and how much they should nerf them by to bring them back “in line” with what they want everything to be.

The “elite” and “hardcore” players would basically be hanging a “Nerf Me!” sign on themselves. The idea amuses me greatly, so please keep begging for ANet to put into this game the tools they need to wreck your playstyle.

MikeyGrey.2496:

This way, people would actually want to wear full zerk/skip mobs, etc. Rewards can be tailored to fit those specific competitive individuals so ez-going players don’t feel pressured.

ANet actually wants people to NOT skip mobs. It’s basically bypassing content (even if it is filler content) to rush to the end as fast as possible. And blowing through things faster means you’re done with it faster, and ready to move on to new content that they don’t have ready yet. If they could figure out a good way to keep people from doing it, they would.

Palador.2170:

You know, I used to be opposed to any sort of DPS meter, but I think I’ve changed my mind.

If ANet put one into the game, you know that there would be two places the information would go. To the player, and to ANet. Basically, it would quickly and constantly show them the most powerful damage builds, and how much they should nerf them by to bring them back “in line” with what they want everything to be.

The “elite” and “hardcore” players would basically be hanging a “Nerf Me!” sign on themselves. The idea amuses me greatly, so please keep begging for ANet to put into this game the tools they need to wreck your playstyle.

MikeyGrey.2496:

This way, people would actually want to wear full zerk/skip mobs, etc. Rewards can be tailored to fit those specific competitive individuals so ez-going players don’t feel pressured.

ANet actually wants people to NOT skip mobs. It’s basically bypassing content (even if it is filler content) to rush to the end as fast as possible. And blowing through things faster means you’re done with it faster, and ready to move on to new content that they don’t have ready yet. If they could figure out a good way to keep people from doing it, they would.

Speed clears were a thing in GW1 also, unless you can find something specifically stating that skipping is unintended or exploitive in some way you are just assuming to confirm your personal bias. I am not saying that such a statement doesn’t exist but if it does I have not seen it.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Speed clears were a thing in GW1 also, unless you can find something specifically stating that skipping is unintended or exploitive in some way you are just assuming to confirm your personal bias. I am not saying that such a statement doesn’t exist but if it does I have not see it.

Of course they existed. Human nature, and all that.

But every encounter that gets skipped is there for a reason, and some poor dev had to spend time making it, and the company had to pay for that time. If everyone skips the encounter, that’s wasted time and money. It also makes a big dungeon feel like a small one, giving the impression of less content.

I’m not saying it’s exploitive or anything like that. Just that ANet would really prefer if people played all the content instead of skipping parts of it. If they can find a way to make players want to play it, without causing other problems, they’ll do it. Rewarding people for skipping it is counter to that.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Speed clears were a thing in GW1 also, unless you can find something specifically stating that skipping is unintended or exploitive in some way you are just assuming to confirm your personal bias. I am not saying that such a statement doesn’t exist but if it does I have not see it.

I’ve seen no such statement

Back when there was a dungeon team, Robert Hrouda stated that he did not want to prevent people from skipping. Of course, he’s gone, and I’ve seen no announcements that there even is a dungeon dev, never mind a dungeon team.

Given ANet’s publicity about the game, saying basically that they envisioned a game in which people would complete content for fun, I do think skipping is unintended. Given the lack of any attempt to prevent skipping, I’d say they don’t consider it an exploit.

Yenn.9185:

Algreg.3629:

Yenn.9185:

Algreg.3629:

as always the adequate reply to this request is “other people´s stats are non of your kitten business”.

If you are in my party, then it’s my business.

nah, even though I usually follow mmorpg´s “metas” and try to max out my characters in the best way and I am not a friend of “flower sniffing”, it is still not your business. I also consider joining parties when not fulfilling their requests really rude. Still, “your” party does not “belong” to you, my stats are none of your business, period. Pay me RL money, maybe I work according to your wishes then.

With that self-centered attitude, it is apparent working in team is not your strong suit. And no, you do not have to pay me or the party organizer any money. You do not work for him or her, you work for the team.

Well, the team who only wants the high DPS and nothing else, from what I’m reading here.

If I join a group, it is, up front, with the explicit understanding I am not top tier ranger and you’re not getting the elite. So far, more groups than not have been okay with this so long as I’m not just continuously dying in each encounter or actively messing up things (through ignorance or through really bad timing).

Again, I could care less about the existence of DPS meters themselves. I care a lot more about how they might be used less as a tool and more as a weapon.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yenn.9185:

Algreg.3629:

Yenn.9185:

Algreg.3629:

as always the adequate reply to this request is “other people´s stats are non of your kitten business”.

If you are in my party, then it’s my business.

nah, even though I usually follow mmorpg´s “metas” and try to max out my characters in the best way and I am not a friend of “flower sniffing”, it is still not your business. I also consider joining parties when not fulfilling their requests really rude. Still, “your” party does not “belong” to you, my stats are none of your business, period. Pay me RL money, maybe I work according to your wishes then.

With that self-centered attitude, it is apparent working in team is not your strong suit. And no, you do not have to pay me or the party organizer any money. You do not work for him or her, you work for the team.

Well, the team who only wants the high DPS and nothing else, from what I’m reading here.

If I join a group, it is, up front, with the explicit understanding I am not top tier ranger and you’re not getting the elite. So far, more groups than not have been okay with this so long as I’m not just continuously dying in each encounter or actively messing up things (through ignorance or through really bad timing).

Again, I could care less about the existence of DPS meters themselves. I care a lot more about how they might be used less as a tool and more as a weapon.

Here is the real kicker, for some people it is “fun” to speed clear and skip mobs. The enjoyment comes from seeing just how fast you can go. I happen to be one of those people from time to time, other times I am perfectly content to just float along. But if I make a group on lfg, I always state what the intention for the group is. It used to surprise me when people would message me saying something to the effect of “I don’t meet what the clearly stated purpose is but can I come anyways? No? Well expletive off”. Conversely, I have joined lfg groups that say “first time runners welcome, or no skipping etc etc”, and inevitably some clown wants to come into that group and start barking orders. In a perfect world (virtual or not) where everyone actually respected other people and their differences we would not need dps meters or better lfg tools. Unfortunately, this Shangri La still eludes us.

ipan.4356:

Harper.4173:

Funky.4861:

@lhos- you want some ‘serious need for co-operation’? How about:
-karka queen
-Tequatl
-Triple trouble
-Marionette
-Assault knights
-TA aetherpath

…just off the top of my head.

Elitists who are impatient tend to have a perfectionist effect on those around them (and the game in general). We have them to thank for the ascended gear grind and lack of build diversity in pve; it’s play their way or you are inferior.

OT: We don’t need more methods of discriminating against casual players in a casual game.

And nobody wants that.
We want a tool through which we can spot and have nothing to do with the “casual players” not discriminate against them.

That is the definition of discrimination.

I am far more comfortable forcing elitists to play with casuals.

It will teach them much needed (and seriously lacking) social skills.

So discriminating one way is fine. But not the other.
Let’s force one part of the player base to play with people they don’t want to and in ways they dislike.

Let’s not force the other part of the player base to be respectful of people’s rights to play in any way they see fit. Because reasons.

Your statement is exactly the reason elitists are so toxic towards “carebears” or “playhowyouwants”.

You call them terrible, antisocial, and a million other things but you’re just dying to force yourselves into their parties.

Great logic there.

Also – I’m more comfortable kicking casuals from parties that aren’t for casuals – it will teach them much needed (and seriously lacking) step up your game.

All jokes aside – you’re talking about social skills – but who’s lacking social skills?

The people just looking to play with similar people or the people ignoring LFG requirements and just joining groups that do not and will not welcome them because they’re not what the people in that group want.

The whole problem is social – and some people don’t have the social skills required to realize you’re not supposed to just breeze on through a party if you have no business there in the first place.

It’s all about decency and respect for other people’s rights to play.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Well, the team who only wants the high DPS and nothing else, from what I’m reading here.

If I join a group, it is, up front, with the explicit understanding I am not top tier ranger and you’re not getting the elite. So far, more groups than not have been okay with this so long as I’m not just continuously dying in each encounter or actively messing up things (through ignorance or through really bad timing).

Again, I could care less about the existence of DPS meters themselves. I care a lot more about how they might be used less as a tool and more as a weapon.

Here is the real kicker, for some people it is “fun” to speed clear and skip mobs. The enjoyment comes from seeing just how fast you can go. I happen to be one of those people from time to time, other times I am perfectly content to just float along. But if I make a group on lfg, I always state what the intention for the group is. It used to surprise me when people would message me saying something to the effect of “I don’t meet what the clearly stated purpose is but can I come anyways? No? Well expletive off”. Conversely, I have joined lfg groups that say “first time runners welcome, or no skipping etc etc”, and inevitably some clown wants to come into that group and start barking orders. In a perfect world (virtual or not) where everyone actually respected other people and their differences we would not need dps meters or better lfg tools. Unfortunately, this Shangri La still eludes us.

[/quote]

See, we’re not that really opposed here. I’m perfectly fine with speed clear groups, with DPS obsessions, and “how fast can we burn down Subject Alpha today?” type stuff. . . well, existing. I’m perfectly fine with giving a pass over groups which advertise for it – I won’t fit and they don’t want to mother me.

I just want to play my game, try to do my best, and walk out of there finishing it. (And no, don’t really care about the loot – I rarely get awesome loot anyways and came to peace with that a while ago.)

But . . .

I’d be lying if I didn’t say the thought of a tool existing which would allow someone to calculate my DPS, and giving them the “right” to go “you’re making it harder for us to clear, so we’re going to boot you”.

Sure, nobody should run into that problem if they just group with friends and guildmates. And nobody should be able to get their group hijacked by two friends who want to mess with a dungeon/fractal run for the lulz, nobody should be yelled at for playing a particular class/build, and nobody should be made to feel ashamed for their opinion.

. . . unfortunately, as you say, enlightenment eludes us. I like to think our community of players is, overall, better than average. Doesn’t mean there aren’t rotten eggs in it who manage to slide by through not directly violating the code of conduct. I don’t feel a need to loan them another weapon.

Harper.4173:

The whole problem is social – and some people don’t have the social skills required to realize you’re not supposed to just breeze on through a party if you have no business there in the first place.

It’s all about decency and respect for other people’s rights to play.

All is fair, and right with what you said, though I do take some affront about the potential implication of someone “breezing through” if they’re not 100% awesome . . .

Our right to play the way we want is fine, and I have no quarrels with it. But to paraphrase . . . the right to play how you want begins and ends when it impacts someone else’s fun.

So, to try a little conciliatory attitude. Shall we all dispense with the “you’re playing it wrong” attitudes and the idea of needing to “solve” elitism? The elitism isn’t a problem to be fixed, it’s just a symptom of human nature which will inevitably crop up when you get enough people in one place. That’s never been the issue, nor has it been “carebears” trying to ruin the game for everyone of the “real players”.

The issue has been the concept of “Group X doesn’t belong”, and the derogatory attitude towards those who choose different play. Be they “carebears”, “elitists”, “hardcore”, “farmers”, “speed runners” . . . the game is in fact big enough for all of us to coexist and not have to bump elbows and set off snarling fights over nothing. There’s no need to try throwing someone out of the game if they’re not actively ruining other peoples’ fun.

Except asura. They can all burn.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Harper.4173:

The whole problem is social – and some people don’t have the social skills required to realize you’re not supposed to just breeze on through a party if you have no business there in the first place.

It’s all about decency and respect for other people’s rights to play.

~snip~

Except asura. They can all burn.

My understanding is that Asura are naturally flame resistant. -_-

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Harper.4173:

The whole problem is social – and some people don’t have the social skills required to realize you’re not supposed to just breeze on through a party if you have no business there in the first place.

It’s all about decency and respect for other people’s rights to play.

~snip~

Except asura. They can all burn.

My understanding is that Asura are naturally flame resistant. -_-

That just means you’re not using enough.

DPS meters are just wholly unnecessary for this game. Games like WoW with 25 people raids and enrage timers and what not then yes. There’s a considerably larger chance that someone/several people are mooching and not contributing. The 5-man dungeons in this game are, in all honesty (don’t mod me Anet D=), a joke by RPG dungeon standards. So many paths can be completed in less than 10 minutes. I’m not going to throw around words like elitist, but people need to calm down in treating dungeons like they’re serious business.

Woljnir.7810:

DPS meters are just wholly unnecessary for this game. Games like WoW with 25 people raids and enrage timers and what not then yes. There’s a considerably larger chance that someone/several people are mooching and not contributing. The 5-man dungeons in this game are, in all honesty (don’t mod me Anet D=), a joke by RPG dungeon standards. So many paths can be completed in less than 10 minutes. I’m not going to throw around words like elitist, but people need to calm down in treating dungeons like they’re serious business.

So if GW2 introduces 10 man new FOW or Underworld, would u the think it would be a good idea to have meters?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Harper.4173:

The whole problem is social – and some people don’t have the social skills required to realize you’re not supposed to just breeze on through a party if you have no business there in the first place.

It’s all about decency and respect for other people’s rights to play.

All is fair, and right with what you said, though I do take some affront about the potential implication of someone “breezing through” if they’re not 100% awesome . . .

Our right to play the way we want is fine, and I have no quarrels with it. But to paraphrase . . . the right to play how you want begins and ends when it impacts someone else’s fun.

So, to try a little conciliatory attitude. Shall we all dispense with the “you’re playing it wrong” attitudes and the idea of needing to “solve” elitism? The elitism isn’t a problem to be fixed, it’s just a symptom of human nature which will inevitably crop up when you get enough people in one place. That’s never been the issue, nor has it been “carebears” trying to ruin the game for everyone of the “real players”.

The issue has been the concept of “Group X doesn’t belong”, and the derogatory attitude towards those who choose different play. Be they “carebears”, “elitists”, “hardcore”, “farmers”, “speed runners” . . . the game is in fact big enough for all of us to coexist and not have to bump elbows and set off snarling fights over nothing. There’s no need to try throwing someone out of the game if they’re not actively ruining other peoples’ fun.

Except asura. They can all burn.

Exactly.

It’s not required to be 100% awesome – it’s required that you meet that party’s requirements. If you want in – you must be the person the others in the party want to share that party with. It’s common sense.

People joining parties when they’re not abiding to the requirements are one of the biggest things that kill my fun in this game.

I don’t like to and don’t want to play “party police” but will do so if people can’t read or can’t be bothered to care and respect for others.

I’m not saying anyone is playing right or wrong – all I’m saying is I want to play with people who play like me – however right or wrong that might be.

I’m not trying to throw anyone out of the game – I’m just trying to stop people from ruining my fun and maybe make sure we don’t ruin each other’s fun in the future.

Also – I too hate the Asura.

Mitch.4781:

Woljnir.7810:

DPS meters are just wholly unnecessary for this game. Games like WoW with 25 people raids and enrage timers and what not then yes. There’s a considerably larger chance that someone/several people are mooching and not contributing. The 5-man dungeons in this game are, in all honesty (don’t mod me Anet D=), a joke by RPG dungeon standards. So many paths can be completed in less than 10 minutes. I’m not going to throw around words like elitist, but people need to calm down in treating dungeons like they’re serious business.

So if GW2 introduces 10 man new FOW or Underworld, would u the think it would be a good idea to have meters?

Not if they do either of those right instead of just lifting them out of WoW’s playbook.

Or, well, EQ’s playbook to be fair. They had the whole “race against the clock” with Plane of Time.

MikeyGrey.2496:

They can add additional rewards for speed-clears or leaders-boards (lol) so those seeking greater efficiency can reap greater rewards. Promoting certain play style this way instead of using tools to enforce it would work out better I think. This way, people would actually want to wear full zerk/skip mobs, etc. Rewards can be tailored to fit those specific competitive individuals so ez-going players don’t feel pressured.

They cant add extra rewards for zerkers because noobs will cry that others have better rewards then they do and it will force casual to join speedrun/zerker group , even bigger toxicity then before

Mitch.4781:

It would be nice to have something like Recount so i can see who isn’t pulling their weight. Can’t stand leechers who get loot and gold off of others hard work and abilities.

oh, come on, how much have you lost because of ‘leechers’ that are nothing more than people with suboptimal damage? Of all the reasons to have a thing like recount, you go and choose the worst one.

Besides, how do you measure the damage rangers bring to the party?

I would really like to have it, though, to see how i’m doing, to experiment with builds and different traits, it would make dungeons more fun for me, as in the present state, they are not challenging, at least I would have the challenge of beating myself in DPS.

MikeyGrey.2496:

They can add additional rewards for speed-clears or leaders-boards (lol) so those seeking greater efficiency can reap greater rewards. Promoting certain play style this way instead of using tools to enforce it would work out better I think.

And now we went from allowing a certain playstyle, through approving it to actively promoting it? Why would Anet want to promote elitist behaviour in a game marketed for casuals?

Palador.2170:

MikeyGrey.2496:

This way, people would actually want to wear full zerk/skip mobs, etc. Rewards can be tailored to fit those specific competitive individuals so ez-going players don’t feel pressured.

ANet actually wants people to NOT skip mobs. It’s basically bypassing content (even if it is filler content) to rush to the end as fast as possible. And blowing through things faster means you’re done with it faster, and ready to move on to new content that they don’t have ready yet. If they could figure out a good way to keep people from doing it, they would.

Yeah, this. They definitely do not behave as if they wanted to promote speed clears at all.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Speed clears were a thing in GW1 also, unless you can find something specifically stating that skipping is unintended or exploitive in some way you are just assuming to confirm your personal bias.

Again, we’re talking about the difference between allowing something and approving of it. It is clear, that while Anet allows it, they do not approve.

Mitch.4781:

I would like a real time data log that shows me all the damage done, dps, total damage, amount of deaths etc in my speed clears.

It would be nice to have something like Recount so i can see who isn’t pulling their weight. Can’t stand leechers who get loot and gold off of others hard work and abilities.

It of course should be opional to toggle on or off, that way casuals won’t feel under pressure, but more determined palyers could use the data to improve their builds?

Well, this thread is far too long and involved and I truly don’t think it’s worthy of my time to go through it.

All I can say is, I’m glad I don’t know you in rl and I hope not to be forced into your company in gameplay.

The real elitists in this game are PHIW.
Also bingo.

Harper.4173:

Let’s force one part of the player base to play with people they don’t want to and in ways they dislike.

Let’s not force the other part of the player base to be respectful of people’s rights to play in any way they see fit. Because reasons.

Your statement is exactly the reason elitists are so toxic towards “carebears” or “playhowyouwants”.

It’s all about decency and respect for other people’s rights to play.

Yes, because the LFG tool isn’t merited by standards. Applying a set of rules to PUGs makes you a kitten, not someone ignoring those rules. If you want to control your party composition, join a guild. If you want to play without bad PUGs, join a guild. Applying personal standards to LFG tool is your problem to deal with.

Elitists are toxic toward carebears because they lack social skills (not necessarily being antisocial, for whatever ungodly reason you made a red herring out of that ad hominem), that’s bare truth. They lack the social skills to generate a group to their liking and instead feel the LFG tool warrants segregation. Simply, it doesn’t. Since your support for Recount is directly correlated with your problems with the LFG tool, you have already subjected yourself to what I like to call the LFG Responsibility, you accept what comes or you form groups outside of randomization.

It’s like players in WoW who expect auto joins to be great. If you are using a (semi)-autmoated system, your right to discrimination is invalidated by election of the majority.

hannah mee.7925:

Harper.4173:

Let’s force one part of the player base to play with people they don’t want to and in ways they dislike.

Let’s not force the other part of the player base to be respectful of people’s rights to play in any way they see fit. Because reasons.

Your statement is exactly the reason elitists are so toxic towards “carebears” or “playhowyouwants”.

It’s all about decency and respect for other people’s rights to play.

Yes, because the LFG tool isn’t merited by standards. Applying a set of rules to PUGs makes you a kitten, not someone ignoring those rules. If you want to control your party composition, join a guild. If you want to play without bad PUGs, join a guild. Applying personal standards to LFG tool is your problem to deal with.

Elitists are toxic toward carebears because they lack social skills (not necessarily being antisocial, for whatever ungodly reason you made a red herring out of that ad hominem), that’s bare truth. They lack the social skills to generate a group to their liking and instead feel the LFG tool warrants segregation. Simply, it doesn’t. Since your support for Recount is directly correlated with your problems with the LFG tool, you have already subjected yourself to what I like to call the LFG Responsibility, you accept what comes or you form groups outside of randomization.

It’s like players in WoW who expect auto joins to be great. If you are using a (semi)-autmoated system, your right to discrimination is invalidated by election of the majority.

Why does applying standards make me a “kitten”? Why can’t I have standards?
I regularly make these parties. People regularly join and meet the standards so I don’t really see why this is a big deal.

Everything in the world has standards.
If you’re holding an interview for a job position and hiring someone do you not have standards?

I have joined a guild – that doesn’t exclude me from wanting good teammates outside my guild. Maybe nobody is on. Maybe they’re busy.

Applying personal standards to the lfg tool is my problem but it would be a much smoother experience if I didn’t have to – that way people’s feelings wouldn’t be hurt because they wouldn’t be in that situation in the first place.

Elitists are not antisocial. I’m social – I’ve met a lot of “elitists” who are social but I’m not social with everyone.

Because I don’t want and don’t need to be. I don’t need to hold everyone’s hand and teach everyone in this game. It’s not my job. I take my enjoyment in game through rewards and loot – not by trying to teach cof p1 for the millionth time to people who can barely read.

If you’re a good player we’ll talk, have fun, we’ll go on runs again. If not I don’t feel compelled to interact. Because I don’t like players that aren’t like me. It doesn’t make me antisocial – just selective.
I’m social with the people I find fun and the people I enjoy playing with.

A group “to my liking” is generated not through “social” bonds but through rules. We set them, stand by them and the run goes smoothly.

I’m not saying I’m not willing to accept what comes from the LFG tool – I’m saying ( and maybe for the millionth time you’ll understand) that if some basic filters were implemented maybe the “elites” and “carebears” wouldn’t have to crash and hurt each other’s feelings every day.
Because otherwise this is a never ending cycle.

It’s like players in WoW who expect auto joins to be great. If you are using a (semi)-autmoated system, your right to discrimination is invalidated by election of the majority.

How did you even come up with this? What majority?
So automated tools are tools that we should have zero control over ? Why ? Because you say so?

LFG tools are about convenience. Players who don’t have time to wait for people on friends’ lists to log in use the LFG tool. The section on the LFG tool which allows players to post requirements is also for convenience, to allow players with similar aims to find each other. While I agree that one can approach certainty in group composition better via guild/friends lists, there is nothing wrong with using the LFG tool the way it is being used.

The real problem is one of entitlement. Let’s say a player sees a group advertising a TA/AP run. Are they entitled to say, “I’ll join and insist we run AC2.”? Should the members who joined expecting TA/AP be expected to do what that player wants? I think not. Ignoring other requirements is no different. The only way it could be different would be to postulate that the LFG tool is more for players who have no skill or build based requirements than it is those who do. And that’s not fair.

That’s not to say that all speed-clear players are paragons of social skill. Some are, some aren’t. Laissez-faire players are not all paragons of social skill, either.

hannah mee.7925:

Yes, because the LFG tool isn’t merited by standards. Applying a set of rules to PUGs makes you a kitten, not someone ignoring those rules. If you want to control your party composition, join a guild. If you want to play without bad PUGs, join a guild. Applying personal standards to LFG tool is your problem to deal with.

No, that’s just some arbitrary personal belief you decided should apply to everyone. The LFG tool obviously supports group descriptions, and it’s an obvious social skill to respect other people’s postings and avoid joining groups where you don’t meet the requirements.

hannah mee.7925:

Elitists are toxic toward carebears because they lack social skills (not necessarily being antisocial, for whatever ungodly reason you made a red herring out of that ad hominem), that’s bare truth. They lack the social skills to generate a group to their liking and instead feel the LFG tool warrants segregation.

The LFG tool is perfectly capable of supporting “elitists”, “carebears”, and everyone else at the same time. People just need to respect group descriptions. “Zerk meta only” has the same weight as “casual run”.

It is not like groups and players are extremely scarce, that is the only thing that might justify forced grouping between players with different desires.

Why should only one type of player have to go through the hassle of manually searching for people? Few people have requirements so complex that they cannot be described completely in an LFG post.

Maybe I’ll I flip your stupid argument and insist that “casuals” be the group that needs to avoid using LFG? Should all the “elitists” join runs with descriptions like “casual run, friendly”, and start demanding speedruns?

You join a “knife only” Counterstrike server. You buy an AWP and start shooting people. You are kicked.

Who is the one that lacks social skills here? The admin? The players who use knives only in the server labeled “knife only”? Or the idiot who joined and started sniping? Are you going to complain that the AWPer shouldn’t have been kicked?

The only reason you would attack the concept of group requirements is your desire to leech and be disruptive. You show that you lack social skills more than others by making your argument.

Astralporing.1957:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Speed clears were a thing in GW1 also, unless you can find something specifically stating that skipping is unintended or exploitive in some way you are just assuming to confirm your personal bias.

Again, we’re talking about the difference between allowing something and approving of it. It is clear, that while Anet allows it, they do not approve.

Ok, I ask for some sort of statement indicating that Arena Net does not approve of it. As far as I know it’s just an assumption until I see otherwise.

hannah mee.7925:

voidwater.2064:

Why should only one type of player have to go through the hassle of manually searching for people?

Because they are a minority.

Citation needed. And I don’t feel like responding to you anymore, I think I have an idea of your beliefs now. There’s little common ground between us.

Guys, there’s no us vs. them. We can share the same game world, ok?

hannah mee.7925:

Harper.4173:

Everything in the world has standards.
If you’re holding an interview for a job position and hiring someone do you not have standards?

Comparing a game to a job validates everything I believed about you and makes a completely justified dismissal of your point on the grounds that you lack social skills. Which, again, you disregard as a concept and apply your own meaning of “antisocial” toward. I’m beginning to think it’s just a playlist of projection with you and any actual social constructs or values are meaningless because you’re too far up your own kitten .

voidwater.2064:

Why should only one type of player have to go through the hassle of manually searching for people?

Because they are a minority.

Both groups can coexist albeit segregated when given the proper tools. You simply want to limit the enjoyment of one group because you believe/belong in the other. Besides, why does it matter if it’s made easier to find like-minded “hardcore” players. Both sides have enough players to fill, and even more on the casual side.

If you want to group with a certain kind of player, that’s what guilds and friends lists are for.

Why should we add a discrimitory tool to the LFG that only affects PUGs?

If you’re PUGG’ing, you accept that you get what you get – if you want a tailored party you already have everything you need to get that – your guild, or your friends list.

There’s no need for a DPS meter.

Recount is a terrible tool which only makes a few players feel ‘exceptional’ and leads to others being insulted or kicked from groups.

Scandi.5693:

Recount is a terrible tool which only makes a few players feel ‘exceptional’ and leads to others being insulted or kicked from groups.

PvP is a terrible game mode which only makes a few players feel exceptional and leads to others being frustraded and abused to death.

The Gem Store is a terrible sort of endgame which only makes a few players look cool in their shinies and leads to other players feeling frustrated for not being able to farm the gold necessary to look that cool.

The internet forums are a terrible way of communication that makes a few people feel intelligent with their posts and leads to others feeling dumb.

Etc.

Blame the tools, not the tool.

Yenn.9185:

hannah mee.7925:

Harper.4173:

Everything in the world has standards.
If you’re holding an interview for a job position and hiring someone do you not have standards?

Comparing a game to a job validates everything I believed about you and makes a completely justified dismissal of your point on the grounds that you lack social skills. Which, again, you disregard as a concept and apply your own meaning of “antisocial” toward. I’m beginning to think it’s just a playlist of projection with you and any actual social constructs or values are meaningless because you’re too far up your own kitten .

voidwater.2064:

Why should only one type of player have to go through the hassle of manually searching for people?

Because they are a minority.

Both groups can coexist albeit segregated when given the proper tools.

You simply want to limit the enjoyment of one group because you believe/belong in the other.

You don’t know me and don’t know how to categorically define me, so please don’t?

Secondly, the tools exist – guilds and friends lists.

There is an amount of responsibility to be held when using the LFG tool and finding PUGs. If someone needs a damage meter to tell them that someone isn’t playing to their standards, they’ve failed. The LFG tool, common sense and observation allows enough of an efficiency quota that the DPS meter is nothing more than a boldface lie by elitists to mistreat others.

The solution is simple, yet nobody actually wants to accept the solution because, again, they find it more enjoyable to disservice “carebears” than to be reasonable: join a guild.

hannah mee.7925:

Yenn.9185:

hannah mee.7925:

Harper.4173:

Everything in the world has standards.
If you’re holding an interview for a job position and hiring someone do you not have standards?

Comparing a game to a job validates everything I believed about you and makes a completely justified dismissal of your point on the grounds that you lack social skills. Which, again, you disregard as a concept and apply your own meaning of “antisocial” toward. I’m beginning to think it’s just a playlist of projection with you and any actual social constructs or values are meaningless because you’re too far up your own kitten .

voidwater.2064:

Why should only one type of player have to go through the hassle of manually searching for people?

Because they are a minority.

Both groups can coexist albeit segregated when given the proper tools.

You simply want to limit the enjoyment of one group because you believe/belong in the other.

You don’t know me and don’t know how to categorically define me, so please don’t?

Secondly, the tools exist – guilds and friends lists.

There is an amount of responsibility to be held when using the LFG tool and finding PUGs. If someone needs a damage meter to tell them that someone isn’t playing to their standards, they’ve failed. The LFG tool, common sense and observation allows enough of an efficiency quota that the DPS meter is nothing more than a boldface lie by elitists to mistreat others.

The solution is simple, yet nobody actually wants to accept the solution because, again, they find it more enjoyable to disservice “carebears” than to be reasonable: join a guild.

Join a guild?

I could easily flip that argument. You kept implying that the hardcore group has to rely on joining a guild/friends list, while the casuals has the current lfg tool. The lfg tool wasn’t intended to be use only by casuals, but by all groups of players.

Responsibility? Yes I agree. That is following and respecting the party description set forth by the lfg ad. Despite that, we still have players who join even if they don’t fit the description.

Yenn.9185:

hannah mee.7925:

Yenn.9185:

hannah mee.7925:

Harper.4173:

Everything in the world has standards.
If you’re holding an interview for a job position and hiring someone do you not have standards?

Comparing a game to a job validates everything I believed about you and makes a completely justified dismissal of your point on the grounds that you lack social skills. Which, again, you disregard as a concept and apply your own meaning of “antisocial” toward. I’m beginning to think it’s just a playlist of projection with you and any actual social constructs or values are meaningless because you’re too far up your own kitten .

voidwater.2064:

Why should only one type of player have to go through the hassle of manually searching for people?

Because they are a minority.

Both groups can coexist albeit segregated when given the proper tools.

You simply want to limit the enjoyment of one group because you believe/belong in the other.

You don’t know me and don’t know how to categorically define me, so please don’t?

Secondly, the tools exist – guilds and friends lists.

There is an amount of responsibility to be held when using the LFG tool and finding PUGs. If someone needs a damage meter to tell them that someone isn’t playing to their standards, they’ve failed. The LFG tool, common sense and observation allows enough of an efficiency quota that the DPS meter is nothing more than a boldface lie by elitists to mistreat others.

The solution is simple, yet nobody actually wants to accept the solution because, again, they find it more enjoyable to disservice “carebears” than to be reasonable: join a guild.

I could easily flip that argument.

Which, again, is easily refuted by majoritarianism.

Yet more bickering about who owns the convenience tool called the LFG. NO ONE owns it. Not elitists, not casuals, not hardcore, not softcore, not efficiency players, not laissez-faire players. Anyone can use it.

The tool includes a field so players can specify what they want to do. Again, why is specifying what content you want to do in the field OK, but specifying how you want to do it isn’t?

Since this thread is about a damage or whatever meter… make it self-only, with no linking to chat, This enables theory-crafting, number crunching and self-improvement. It does not allow for easy, brainless identification of the damage done by everyone in the party. That’s OK with me. I support the right of anyone to play as they wish, but I don’t necessarily support the right to have the game provide a convenience tool to do so. If you can’t tell by now who knows what they’re doing in a party, you shouldn’t be throwing stones anyway.

:D I dont need recount to tell me that I am carrying party members. The staves(guardians) greatswords(mesmers) in their hands does it for me.

TL;DR but seriously, go back to WoW.

This could be useful if it only shows your own stats privately so that you can tweak your builds and improve in whatever areas you felt you needed to. This, however would be bad if everyone could see what everyone in the party does because then we would have more people being kicked for not playing as good. If someone wants a good party and/or has limited time then it would be best to do guild runs or simply pug and be social and meet new like-minded and similarly skilled players to add to your friends list to party up with later. Anyone that pugs should expect some of the runs to not go well.

hannah mee.7925:

Harper.4173:

Everything in the world has standards.
If you’re holding an interview for a job position and hiring someone do you not have standards?

Comparing a game to a job validates everything I believed about you and makes a completely justified dismissal of your point on the grounds that you lack social skills. Which, again, you disregard as a concept and apply your own meaning of “antisocial” toward. I’m beginning to think it’s just a playlist of projection with you and any actual social constructs or values are meaningless because you’re too far up your own kitten .

voidwater.2064:

Why should only one type of player have to go through the hassle of manually searching for people?

Because they are a minority.

You do realize that it’s who who lacks the “social understanding” to realize that some people play games for the social aspect while others do it for competitive, exploration or even reward reasons. Not everybody plays in order to hold hands with each other in a virtual environment.

Standards are a part of everything in this world. They’re part of serious jobs and part of games.

It appears you didn’t know this – but let me explain it to you then.
Standards exist in every domain of human activity – from work to fun. Even in games, even in more “relaxed environments”.
Even children playing on a playground have standards. When picking people for dodgeball or other team games standards are applied.
Good players are picked first, bad players are picked last or not at all.

Also – I love the “minority” argument. So if “carebears” were a minority they’d have to suffer the abuse of the community?

Also – for argument’s sake – even if I did lack “social skills” how does that warrant a dismissal of my argument?

That’s a terrible way to think. One’s argument can be valid and well thought through even if you don’t particularly like the individual.
My social or antisocial behavior has nothing to do with the point I made. Standards are standards – and they’re used everywhere.

So why shouldn’t we have them here?

hannah mee.7925:

Yenn.9185:

hannah mee.7925:

Harper.4173:

Everything in the world has standards.
If you’re holding an interview for a job position and hiring someone do you not have standards?

Comparing a game to a job validates everything I believed about you and makes a completely justified dismissal of your point on the grounds that you lack social skills. Which, again, you disregard as a concept and apply your own meaning of “antisocial” toward. I’m beginning to think it’s just a playlist of projection with you and any actual social constructs or values are meaningless because you’re too far up your own kitten .

voidwater.2064:

Why should only one type of player have to go through the hassle of manually searching for people?

Because they are a minority.

Both groups can coexist albeit segregated when given the proper tools.

You simply want to limit the enjoyment of one group because you believe/belong in the other.

You don’t know me and don’t know how to categorically define me, so please don’t?

Secondly, the tools exist – guilds and friends lists.

There is an amount of responsibility to be held when using the LFG tool and finding PUGs. If someone needs a damage meter to tell them that someone isn’t playing to their standards, they’ve failed. The LFG tool, common sense and observation allows enough of an efficiency quota that the DPS meter is nothing more than a boldface lie by elitists to mistreat others.

The solution is simple, yet nobody actually wants to accept the solution because, again, they find it more enjoyable to disservice “carebears” than to be reasonable: join a guild.

Actually you’re rather transparent as a person.

Also – you do realize I’ve been asking for filters and not a damage meter right?

I hope you do – and would like you to respond to that, not the meter.

hannah mee.7925:

Yenn.9185:

hannah mee.7925:

Yenn.9185:

hannah mee.7925:

Harper.4173:

Everything in the world has standards.
If you’re holding an interview for a job position and hiring someone do you not have standards?

Comparing a game to a job validates everything I believed about you and makes a completely justified dismissal of your point on the grounds that you lack social skills. Which, again, you disregard as a concept and apply your own meaning of “antisocial” toward. I’m beginning to think it’s just a playlist of projection with you and any actual social constructs or values are meaningless because you’re too far up your own kitten .

voidwater.2064:

Why should only one type of player have to go through the hassle of manually searching for people?

Because they are a minority.

Both groups can coexist albeit segregated when given the proper tools.

You simply want to limit the enjoyment of one group because you believe/belong in the other.

You don’t know me and don’t know how to categorically define me, so please don’t?

Secondly, the tools exist – guilds and friends lists.

There is an amount of responsibility to be held when using the LFG tool and finding PUGs. If someone needs a damage meter to tell them that someone isn’t playing to their standards, they’ve failed. The LFG tool, common sense and observation allows enough of an efficiency quota that the DPS meter is nothing more than a boldface lie by elitists to mistreat others.

The solution is simple, yet nobody actually wants to accept the solution because, again, they find it more enjoyable to disservice “carebears” than to be reasonable: join a guild.

I could easily flip that argument.

Which, again, is easily refuted by majoritarianism.

Which is also easily refuted by the fact that you have no actual numbers to back up these bloated claims of a majority.

So – until you come here with cold hard numbers I’d suggest you stop pulling the “majority” card.

Emplate.8791:

Mitch.4781:

ipan.4356:

This is the very thing I hate in games like this.

why though? It can help you improve ur skills

It may help you improve your damage, not skills. I haven’t done any dungeons in this game yet, but i assume there are more roles than just dps. And if someone is doing their job of controlling mobs, or having to be boon/condition heavy, their dps will be lacking. Then some elitist will come along and slam them for “not pulling their weight”.

I enjoy it as a novelty in games that have it, but they do more harm than good…

Possibly instead of a meter used in battle, there were practice dummies with built in dps meters which you could practice your rotation on. I could see that as beneficial

I remember when Gearscore was new for WoW. Worst add on ever, because it basically allowed Groups to weed out players THEY felt were Undergeared, since they did Not want " a challenge" they wanted a snoozefest.

it did Not matter that the player might be superior to them. it did Not matter that even if the gear was slightly below what they wanted he might through superior tactics out-damage them. It did Not matter.

All that many groups were interested in was ’ what’s your GS?"

This game is based On players COOPERATING with one another. Not competing with one another.

As such something Like Recount would basically go against desogn Philosophy, and it would get a LOT of Pushback.

Here’s a note I’d like to make, with something I stated previously.

I don’t think we need dps meters in this game, still, because it can easily be used as a weapon to discriminate against players.

That being said, the players that want to speedclear continue to hold a point. If someone wants to time attack a dungeon, they should be allowed to make sure that the people they recruit are geared for the job.

While the elitist attitude is abhorrent and leads to clashes, so is the “I should be allowed to join this party that is looking for only zerker/speedclear even though there are several other parties/ I have the option to make my own.”

You dont know what those people have to do. maybe they have to work soon, maybe they have chores, maybe they’re expecting a call at X hour. Willfully slowing them down because you feel you have the right to is just as kittenbag as forcibly excluding people from your party with no clear reason/ you don’t like their dps.

all that being said, why do we need recount? Isn’t “Zerk Test” ping gear just as effective at the beginning of a run? At that point, only three things can happen.

they say no and you kick
they ping gear and you go
they ping gear but its a lie and you go, at which point the guy’s just being a troll for having zerk and not using it.

ipan.4356:

If you want to group with a certain kind of player, that’s what guilds and friends lists are for.

Why should we add a discrimitory tool to the LFG that only affects PUGs?

If you’re PUGG’ing, you accept that you get what you get – if you want a tailored party you already have everything you need to get that – your guild, or your friends list.

There’s no need for a DPS meter.

LFG is for anyone looking to make a party. One particular play style does not own the exclusive use of it. If you add better filtering tools, the people who accept your definition could still fill their parties with “anything goes” but the people who are looking for specific things will also be able to fill their parties and not have them wrecked by players intentionally being deceitful.

My own personal experience has been that there is a segment of the game population who:

• Refuse to make their own parties so they can play how they like.
• Exhibit poor “skill” in dungeons (either through inexperience or willful ignorance).
• Expect to be allowed into any group and be carried through it so that they can earn the same reward to time ratio as someone who makes an effort to learn the most efficient way of doing a particular path.

Obviously I don’t have hard numbers to even make a guess as to how many people fall into that category, but I know they exist because I have met far too many since the game has launched. So it’s clear, I have absolutely no problem with someone playing how they want. I do however have a problem with someone who want’s maximum reward/efficiency without being willing to put in the effort to learn how to do that themselves and expect that they should be able to do that off of someone else’s “labor”.