Guild Wars 2

Nuzt.7894:

Dual.8953:

If they remove the AoE cap, what’s to stop large zergs from eating anything smaller them them?

Skill ?

Smaller groups can already outplay larger groups via skill. Every buff introduced in this game is magified when in the hands of a zerg.

Nuzt.7894:

Dual.8953:

If they remove the AoE cap, what’s to stop large zergs from eating anything smaller them them?

Skill, tactics, and coordination, that and basically just using their brain.

and what stops a zerg doing the exact same?

A skillful zerg will always beat a skillful smaller group

The only thing this would do is maybe make more rambo players who could take out a newb zerg on a lower tier. i imagine higher tiers would adapt quickly and swarm small groups

Dynnen.6405:

“Don’t do anything to make zerging less effective!”

- Yams.6082

Fixed that for ya.

Dual.8953:

Nuzt.7894:

Dual.8953:

If they remove the AoE cap, what’s to stop large zergs from eating anything smaller them them?

Skill ?

Smaller groups can already outplay larger groups via skill. Every buff introduced in this game is magified when in the hands of a zerg.

Heaven forbid people that play games try to get better. Anyone else kittening remember when the point of playing a game was to challenge yourselves? Here maybe this will articulate my point a little better.

Dynnen.6405:

Exactly, and I think you touched on the thing that is preventing any lasting improvements to wvw. You would have to adjust things for wvw specifically. Unfortunately its just not in the cards (so far) =/

As long as such training wheels are there, we are much less able to pull of the truly advanced tricks… I do think that certain skills will need to be looked at, but that stands true even if nothing changes towards AoE whatsoever. By removing it, I just see that it will open up possibilities instead of artificially and needlessly restricting them.

I guess Anet will do what they are going to do, but I do hope that things like custom arenas will be expansive enough (at least given some time) to be a test bed for different, larger scale changes.

Hopefully, someday soon, WvW will start being looked at as a more serious part of the game. When I bought it, I was actually under the impression WvW was what they were pushing as the basis for their “e-sport.” I said “finally! not another node cap game!” Should have read a bit more closely.. XD

Dynnen.6405:

Dual.8953:

Nuzt.7894:

Dual.8953:

If they remove the AoE cap, what’s to stop large zergs from eating anything smaller them them?

Skill ?

Smaller groups can already outplay larger groups via skill. Every buff introduced in this game is magified when in the hands of a zerg.

Heaven forbid people that play games try to get better. Anyone else kittening remember when the point of playing a game was to challenge yourselves? Here maybe this will articulate my point a little better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VAhzPcZ-s

I fail to see how this is a valid arguement to “any buff scales up in the hands of a zerg”
Removing the AoE cap will strengthen small groups, but it’ll strengthen zergs even more, in direct proportion to the ratio of players between forces.

Chaosky.5276:

Dynnen.6405:

“Don’t do anything to make zerging less effective!”

- Yams.6082

Fixed that for ya.

This guy gets it. My opinions are exactly that, my own. If you generalize a server based on the comments of one member I hate to see how you behave in real life.

The argument was always about breaking up zergs. OP disliked the zerg mentality and suggested uncapping aoe as a way to dissuade such behavior. My response to OP and like-minded people was that there are alternatives to PvP without 20 other people and he should open his eyes and find out what they are.

Again, this thread is about zerging. If you guys truly feel that aoe cap is limiting, post it in the Guild Wars 2 General Discussion subform.

@Yams;

I am for the removal of the AoE cap and have stayed consistent in saying it wouldnt remove zerging. The benefits/drawbacks to different systemic implementations is what some of us are discussing.

Much as one shouldnt generalize an entire server, one shouldnt generalize an entire viewpoint.

Tuluum.9638:

@Yams;

I am for the removal of the AoE cap and have stayed consistent in saying it wouldnt remove zerging. The benefits/drawbacks to different systemic implementations is what some of us are discussing.

Much as one shouldnt generalize an entire server, one shouldnt generalize an entire viewpoint.

Touché. Nevertheless I still feel that the discussion centers around how the implementation would work in a WvW context. From a PvE perspective uncapping aoe would trivialize a lot of content (defense missions in dungeons come to mind, such as CoF P3).

I wonder if removing would effect class biasing in WvW. Like if super serious guilds would demand their players only run AoE heavy classes.

Daemonne.5018:

Nuzt.7894:

RyuDragnier.9476:

So you want to make it so Staff Elementalists (and other AoE abusing builds) can take down entire zergs by themselves and become massively overpowered? Because that’s probably what would happen, causing ANet to pull a massive AoE nerf across the board that would effect PvE as well and make AoE useless. I SAY NAY!

Do you die now if your in an Ele’s AoE ? Don’t stand in the AoE, it really is that simple.

If you refuse to move out of the AoE, you deserve to die.

I agree with the OP. Everyone is so afraid that they will be killed by a small group, your zerg has AoE’s as well, use them, there is no reason zergs should die to a small group ever.

Any zerg will have the capability of a small group and then some. The small group wiping a zerg is a rediculous argument, it just goes to show that even zerglings think they are terrible at the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSuQ3PIV80E

Small Group defends tower vs Zerg.

The baddies taking the keep could have sent 3-5 people around the side to stack aoe on the defenders. They instead, want to be babied w/ the 5 person cap.

Uhm, whoever moved this. This was specifically about AoE limits for WvW, that’s why it was created there. PvE is a different issue.

Straegen.2938:

This again? Players dropping 200k or more damage with one ability is ridiculous. AoE is already broken and dominates the game why make it more so? If it is under the assumption that it will stop zerging, that will never happen with this change.

Imagine two big zergs fighting and dropping AoE… everything would be dead in a second with almost no chance to avoid the damage.

Imagine two big zergs fighting and dropping AoE… everything would be dead in a second with almost no chance to avoid the damage.[/quote]

That’s the point to removing/reducing the AoE cap to limit BIG ZERG play…

Now a few defenders truely get an advantage defending keep —- AoE the choke point, really hurts (OMG… you just can’t run mindlessly though the door)

Of course, the cap does not have to be completely removed, this can be done in an iterative fashion.

Its Anets way of ignoring it, now we will get all the PvE QQ about their 5 minute dungeon runs turning into 3 minute dungeons runs. Anet can then justify not doing anything because god forbid they do anything for WvW over PvE.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Uhm, whoever moved this. This was specifically about AoE limits for WvW, that’s why it was created there. PvE is a different issue.

This isn’t strictly a WvW issue. The developers treat WvW as an extension of PvE (that’s why you use PvE gear and skills behave the same as they do in PvE). Consider the aoe cap from an orr farming perspective:

- Certain classes have weak tagging ability (I’m looking at you, mesmers). If you allowed AoE to hit everything in range then those classes are at an inherent disadvantage. You’d be creating a divide between PvP and PvE professions where none previously existed.
- Uncapping the aoe limit means farming for mats just became that much more efficient. You’re going to see the bots come back in force, except as staff elementalists instead of bear rangers.

Just a couple of points off the top of my head as to why the cap needs to stay.

I have a feeling that if they removed AoE all over boons and healing AoE would easily out do any type of dmg. At the same time AoE that do dmg over time fields etc.. will only be of use if ppl just simply stand in it. The problem with these AoE is not about how many ppl they hit but how often they do there dmg.

Cap should be removed or at least increased to discourage zerging. As others have said many times, AOE is only powerful if you stand in it. So don’t stand in it. Learn to exploit weak points in defenses instead of relying on clustering up in a mindless ball and charging into enemy fire.

At this point, anything that helps to get rid of the zerg is a step in the right direction.

Daecollo.9578:

Malediktus.9250:

AOE would be overpowered without such a limit. Its good as it is.

Explain how it would be OP?

IF it wasn’t limited, it would force people to “THINK” and not mindlessly run in.

People would actually dodge and avoid AOEs.

This logic is so flawed. You posted a video of a small group dominating a large zerg BECAUSE they mindlessly ran in, into the AoE that the small group was putting down.

Making AoE more effective against zergs will not make people zerg less at all. It will make people play AoE damage roles more while within the zerg. I keep seeing these random assumptions that people will zerg less if AoE is more powerful. Where do you guys grab that from? People will zerg because zerging is effective. A zerg with more AoE users is more powerful than a small group with less AoE users. Plain and simple.

I don’t understand how people don’t get this, a small group with 5 ele’s has enough AoE for a 25 man zerg. The limit doesn’t stop them. The distribution of damage is based on whoever is closest to the center point of the AoE. The only grey area is how equidistant targets are calculated but that’s so insignificant.

This trend of wanting to remove the AoE limit is just a reach for easy mode, maybe some AoE abilities could be improved on but the cap is fine as it is as shown in the video posted earlier in this thread. Proper use of AoE in a small group can destroy and deny an entire enemy zerg. What more do you want?

The trend of wanting a cap is a reach for easy mode more so then not having a cap. Your asking that players don’t have to think, they don’t have to move, they can just ignore AoE’s with the current model. Without a cap they would have to adapt and position, as they should have to do. Do you honestly believe the smaller group is going to stand still and just AoE and the larger group will stand still and just die ?

McDili.1549:

Daecollo.9578:

Malediktus.9250:

AOE would be overpowered without such a limit. Its good as it is.

Explain how it would be OP?

IF it wasn’t limited, it would force people to “THINK” and not mindlessly run in.

People would actually dodge and avoid AOEs.

This logic is so flawed. You posted a video of a small group dominating a large zerg BECAUSE they mindlessly ran in, into the AoE that the small group was putting down.

Making AoE more effective against zergs will not make people zerg less at all. It will make people play AoE damage roles more while within the zerg. I keep seeing these random assumptions that people will zerg less if AoE is more powerful. Where do you guys grab that from? People will zerg because zerging is effective. A zerg with more AoE users is more powerful than a small group with less AoE users. Plain and simple.

I don’t understand how people don’t get this, a small group with 5 ele’s has enough AoE for a 25 man zerg. The limit doesn’t stop them. The distribution of damage is based on whoever is closest to the center point of the AoE. The only grey area is how equidistant targets are calculated but that’s so insignificant.

This trend of wanting to remove the AoE limit is just a reach for easy mode, maybe some AoE abilities could be improved on but the cap is fine as it is as shown in the video posted earlier in this thread. Proper use of AoE in a small group can destroy and deny an entire enemy zerg. What more do you want?

First of all, it’s hardly a reach for easy mode. It’s a wish for hard mode. Zerging is easy mode. We want to remove the cap to make the game require more skill and be more of a challenge.

Secondly, the argument about the 5 eles having enough aoe for a 25 man zerg can be correct, but only in a very specific situation. If the 25 man zerg is all stacked up on one spot (which they do fairly often) your 5 eles are not going to be very effective. As opposed to hitting all 25 at once, they will hit 5. If they kill those 5, they’ll hit another 5 and so on. This makes defeating the zerg very slow and rewards people for standing in aoe to actually avoid it. I’ll type that again, it rewards people for standing in aoe. You can’t seriously think that that’s a good mechanic for a game.

Even if removing the cap doesn’t eliminate zerging, it will make people spread out. When you encourage people to spread out instead of clump up, it opens up the field for much more interesting fights and actual use of tactics as opposed to clump up and charge in.

I support the removal of the AoE cap, but the zerg issue is an issue on it’s own.
Anet will ignore the problem until the players make it hurt. To that end, it would be interesting to see if three similar time-zone servers could arrange a tri-zerg wheel-of-destruction in EB, where they don’t fight each other, they just follow a pre-set pattern on the map taking over each others areas in an orderly fashion. The proper cooperation could result in an interesting farming effort that might just trip the “ok, time to do something” alarm at Anet.

Yams.6082:

- Uncapping the aoe limit means farming for mats just became that much more efficient. You’re going to see the bots come back in force, except as staff elementalists instead of bear rangers.

Not sure how true that would be. DR would simply hit faster due to it being some sort of points based system (ref: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diminishing_returns )

I really want to see a little thing called “Tactics.” come back into this game, we sorely missed it.

NOBODY SHOULD STAND STILL AND IGNORE AOES, you should be punished for rushing in chokepoints.

I don’t believe the aoe limit should be removed, but they should certainly increase it for certain skills like the Ranger warhorn because your pet either steals buffs or does not receive buffs.

The AoE cap does not reward people for standing in AoE – it simply punishes them less, as each individual aoe has a smaller chance of hitting any person. If it really did reward zergs for doing so this would be a bad game mechanic, yes, but it doesn’t. It just puts a cap on how much hurt one single player can do.

The cap does reward people for clumping up, but that isn’t the same as standing in AoE. Think about it – if a 50 man zergball had a choice, they would prefer not to get hit by any aoe effects.

Even as a staff elementalist I don’t support removal of the AoE cap as it just leads to too many problems.

1) Balancing of loot in WvW, again. Professions with low AoE (mesmers, thieves) will get so much less loot than anyone who can put out consistent area damage.

2) Stacked retaliation + regen + protection + fury + every other buff. Try and use any area skill on a cluster of people with retaliation and you risk instantly downing yourself. While the case can be made that corrupt boon works really well on this, see point 1. Guess we should only have necros and elementalists.

3) Zergs will still exist (after all more people = more damage), just spread out more. While it will stop the (rather cheesy, I admit) zerg-ball tactic, how does this change anything? I’ve transferred from a T4 server to a T2 server, and while there are no zerg-balls in T4 (at least on Crystal Desert), there are still zergs. We just didn’t all stand in a little clump. It was boring, to be honest. Just poke at each other forever until one side had too many people, then rush the other team in a giant disorganized blob.

4) You think lag is bad now?

A better solution I think, is to remove the AoE cap for siege weapons and/or increase their damage + area. Zergs will still be effective in the open field, but clumping up to attack any fortified structure will become less of a good idea.

Sunflowers.1729:

The AoE cap does not reward people for standing in AoE – it simply punishes them less, as each individual aoe has a smaller chance of hitting any person. If it really did reward zergs for doing so this would be a bad game mechanic, yes, but it doesn’t. It just puts a cap on how much hurt one single player can do.

The cap does reward people for clumping up, but that isn’t the same as standing in AoE. Think about it – if a 50 man zergball had a choice, they would prefer not to get hit by any aoe effects.

Even as a staff elementalist I don’t support removal of the AoE cap as it just leads to too many problems.

1) Balancing of loot in WvW, again. Professions with low AoE (mesmers, thieves) will get so much less loot than anyone who can put out consistent area damage.

2) Stacked retaliation + regen + protection + fury + every other buff. Try and use any area skill on a cluster of people with retaliation and you risk instantly downing yourself. While the case can be made that corrupt boon works really well on this, see point 1. Guess we should only have necros and elementalists.

3) Zergs will still exist (after all more people = more damage), just spread out more. While it will stop the (rather cheesy, I admit) zerg-ball tactic, how does this change anything? I’ve transferred from a T4 server to a T2 server, and while there are no zerg-balls in T4 (at least on Crystal Desert), there are still zergs. We just didn’t all stand in a little clump. It was boring, to be honest. Just poke at each other forever until one side had too many people, then rush the other team in a giant disorganized blob.

4) You think lag is bad now?

A better solution I think, is to remove the AoE cap for siege weapons and/or increase their damage + area. Zergs will still be effective in the open field, but clumping up to attack any fortified structure will become less of a good idea.

Reward vs. Being punished less is just arguing semantics. The point still stands. There is a bonus for having 10 people stand in an aoe as opposed to 5. The bonus is that 5 of those 10 people take no damage.

1. This is a non-sequitur. Balancing of loot between classes is already an issue regardless of aoe cap. I love playing my support guardian but I don’t get half as many bags as I do on my Necro.

2. I don’t think anyone is suggesting removing the aoe cap for buffs. Even so, this is in itself a counter argument to the “aoe is OP” argument. You can’t argue both that AOE would be OP without a cap and that it would be suicide to use an AOE on a group because of stacked retaliation. You’re on two different sides of the argument.

3. A spread out zerg instead of a clumped up zerg is a step in the right direction. It opens up opportunities for tactical game play, exploiting weakness in formations, etc. Much better than ball up and charge in.

4. This could be a valid point, but it’s speculation to argue either side. I would be interested in seeing how much lag would actually be caused by registering large amounts of hits. You could be right and it may be a problem, but it could also not be a problem at all. We don’t know at this point.

I would be all for removing aoe cap for siege weapons. I think that’s a great suggestion actually. Make siege weapons be the anti-zerg.

Ranger pets should be immune to AoE and have AoE attacks, Rangers bows should be able to hit five players in a cone and stack poison bleed, fire and chill on all of them at the same time, As well as seeing Invisible…

It wouldn’t be overpowered at all, really..

or AT LEAST increase the AOE limit to 10, for now…..

the problem is if you up the cap what do you do about AOE boons, conditions and healing?

if you increase those to the zerg can stack buffs and own any small group still it changes nothing

if you dont allow boons to hit more targets then you need to limit conditions which reduces a lot of builds effectiveness. since condition removal is a boon or healing you have to match it to conditions too

and what stops a zerg doing the exact same?

Nothing

Offensive AoE (without limits) simply acts to create diminishing returns in the usefulness of bringing more people too a fight, meaning that the smaller side will be at somewhat less of a disadvantage.

By reducing the effective power difference between the larger and smaller sides you are creating a game where more fights become interesting instead of simply one side facerolling the other.

In the same manner, removing defensive AoE caps would be a mistake, since that would serve to increase the gap between the smaller and larger side.

The Rooster.2615:

Reward vs. Being punished less is just arguing semantics. The point still stands. There is a bonus for having 10 people stand in an aoe as opposed to 5. The bonus is that 5 of those 10 people take no damage.

2. I don’t think anyone is suggesting removing the aoe cap for buffs. Even so, this is in itself a counter argument to the “aoe is OP” argument. You can’t argue both that AOE would be OP without a cap and that it would be suicide to use an AOE on a group because of stacked retaliation. You’re on two different sides of the argument.

3. A spread out zerg instead of a clumped up zerg is a step in the right direction. It opens up opportunities for tactical game play, exploiting weakness in formations, etc. Much better than ball up and charge in.

1) It’s not arguing semantics – 5 of those 10 people will still be hit by AoE. The AoE still damages them. Right now there is no downside for me to use meteor shower on a group of 10 people. It just doesn’t hit 5 of them, but it doesn’t give those people any benefits either. All that is happening is that for some technical or balance reason, I am not allowed to damage every single person inside the circle. If the zerg spreads out, I might hit 5 people. If the zerg clumps up, I will hit 5 people. How does this support a zerg?

2) The effect of a no-limit meteor storm is enormous. So is the effect is a 50 man retaliation buff. The retaliation counters the meteor storm, but this doesn’t make the meteor storm any less overpowered – it just has some form of counter play. Compare this to a hypothetical single-target-only class (sorta like thieves or mesmers). There is NOTHING that that class can now do, that will rival that single meteor storm. That’s overpowered. In actual play, sure it is up to anyone’s guess whether bunching up will still be effective, but that is just up to the relative overpowered-ness of the different area effects.

extra bit: Why should they only remove AoE damage caps, but keep the buffs at a 5-man limit? Seems a bit unfair to me.

3) In lower tier servers I found a lot of spread out zergs facing against each other. Nothing happened, we just had a big messy fight everywhere. In addition, current zerg-balls are not just ‘charge up at each other and spam 1’. Sure it works, but a coordinated guild will still destroy them. Might stacking, water fields, chain veils and all that stuff.

Sunflowers.1729:

1) It’s not arguing semantics – 5 of those 10 people will still be hit by AoE. The AoE still damages them. Right now there is no downside for me to use meteor shower on a group of 10 people. It just doesn’t hit 5 of them, but it doesn’t give those people any benefits either. All that is happening is that for some technical or balance reason, I am not allowed to damage every single person inside the circle. If the zerg spreads out, I might hit 5 people. If the zerg clumps up, I will hit 5 people. How does this support a zerg?

2) The effect of a no-limit meteor storm is enormous. So is the effect is a 50 man retaliation buff. The retaliation counters the meteor storm, but this doesn’t make the meteor storm any less overpowered – it just has some form of counter play. Compare this to a hypothetical single-target-only class (sorta like thieves or mesmers). There is NOTHING that that class can now do, that will rival that single meteor storm. That’s overpowered. In actual play, sure it is up to anyone’s guess whether bunching up will still be effective, but that is just up to the relative overpowered-ness of the different area effects.

extra bit: Why should they only remove AoE damage caps, but keep the buffs at a 5-man limit? Seems a bit unfair to me.

3) In lower tier servers I found a lot of spread out zergs facing against each other. Nothing happened, we just had a big messy fight everywhere. In addition, current zerg-balls are not just ‘charge up at each other and spam 1’. Sure it works, but a coordinated guild will still destroy them. Might stacking, water fields, chain veils and all that stuff.

1) Technically, you were arguing semantics. And, the issue is that if a zerg clumps up and it’s 20, right now you’ll only hit 5. If there was no AoE cap, then if they clumped up you’ll hit all 20 (that’s assuming it’s an actual AoE and NOT Meteor Shower, which randomly drops a meteor somewhere in the circle, which may or may not hit someone within…WTF is up with that?!). So, in essence right now punishment, rewards, benefit, negative effect…whatever, we have it at this moment that getting 20 people clumped up beating on a door is good for that zerg because if they’re getting hit by an AOE, only 5 of them are getting hit. If they’re getting hit by 2 AoE, then only 10 of them max are getting hit (assuming no overlap). If they’re getting hit by 3 AoE, then only 15 max get hit (again, assuming no overlap).

2) Explain exactly how a 2-3sec cast, statically located, and CLEARLY MARKED WITH A HUGE RED CIRCLE ability having no limit to the players hit within it is an “enormous effect”? I’m curious to the extent. Oh, and we’re talking about an ability with a huge cooldown too. This is also needed to mention, but as said above Meteor Shower randomly drops the meteors in the Red Ring and can hit someone in there or miss them entirely (or multiple hit them, if they stand still inside of it). Logical thinking dictates that it only becomes super powerful based on the reactions -or lack there of- of the players who are within the effected area of the spell. This game created active Dodge as it’s main key selling point for a reason, people need to stop making excuses not to use it and actually apply it to real situations (like dodging out of the **** *****ing red rings!).

3) Congratulations on the lower Tier ranks actually getting their stuff together. But the people in the top 6 servers (ever changing between Tier 1 and 2 ranked servers) don’t give two spits about the lowest Tier. Zergs are a major issue in this game because they KNOW that they can steamroll through things because they KNOW that only a fraction of their team is going to get hit by an AoE. If 50 people steam through 1 guy’s AoE, only 1/10th will get hit….they don’t care about red circles. This is in effect training them to ignore the red rings and just bunch up to plow through just hoping the dice rolls that you’re not one of the 5 hit. This cap has created IDIOT PLAY. There, you want the truth, YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!~ The truth is that ‘smart play’ is being pushed aside for stupid play because the system rewards stupid lemming clusters rather than real strategic planning, attack, and defense.

P.S. I do mean that they’re lemmings. Following one or two blue pizzas in a giant cluster with no thought of their own, just swinging at things and casting wildly until they cap something or kill someone.

GUILD WARS 2 ZERG MENTALITY:

Do not put diminishing returns on damage.

This will the already overpowered Retaliation zergs even more unstoppable.
Right now, with my AoEs only hitting up to 5, when I’m defending a tower/keep I already down myself as if there were 10 players or more attacking me with high Retaliation groups.
Yeah, it’s that fast.

This also only works because the damage is spread among 5 targets, so any other target not being currently hit by the AoE has time to heal up.

I say remove the cap completely and end up with the zerg mentality and tactic of “blobing” everyone in the same spot.
This might end up with the turtle tactics, but it’s at least makes zergs less desireable if you don’t have the “I’m invincible” coat on.

Players should think and fight strategically, regardless if they’re ikittenerg or not.
Currently, stacking as much as you can is the most effective way to break anything, makes lesser groups barely a challenge.

In the example of a 50 man zerg vs a 10 man zerg, the 50 man already has clear advantage, why give them even more advantage just by having more players?

Though this could be because of performance limitations (similar as culling), but if it isn’t… it’s unbalanced to give this advantage to a group.

Actually it would put less stress on the server because “ZERG VS ZERG” fights would not last as long.

However, because of the way buffs effect allies, it will make good counter play.

You said so yourself, YOU must worry about retaliation, so you can’t just blob spam all your AOEs down on said Zerg, because they have a way to damage you back.

In another game, after a certain number of targets, the damage is divided between the targets.

Could this falloff not be added to aoe/boon spreading? reducing damage and durations/effect if you try it on too many targets. Having retaliation do less damage for each consecutive hit (5-10% maybe) would be nice.

It makes sense that there’s only so much shrapnel in a bomb and only so much focus a caster can put into an skill.

The zerg will always be stronger, but the tactic of stacking up on one spot to reduce aoe damage is just so jarring it should be stopped at any cost. It’s stronger for the wrong reasons imo.

Then there’s the perpetuum option, they made zergs risky by having your mech explode on death, crippling mass zergs if you could kill one :P

I’ve played DAOC RVR for such a long time. In DAOC there was no AOE cap and it worked very well. People learned very fast not to stand in a large zergball during combat. Instead they just spread out at the beginning of a fight to prevent being an easy target for AOEs.

Were AOE professions to strong in DAOC RVR due to no AOE cap? No.
Did all just have played AOE professions in DAOC RVR? No.
Did no AOE cap has prevented zergs in DAOC RVR? No, but…
Did smaller zergs had a chance to win against larger zergs? Yes!!

Zergballs in GW2 are the dumbest things I’ve ever seen in a PVP oriented MMO. AOE caps have to be removed for WvW!!

Ok now we have a proof that elementalist are without doubt the FOTM….

I d ask ANYONE concerned about staff ele’s aoe to just try one and cast ONCE any aoe spell.

They will notice unless enemies stand still for MANY seconds, they deal no damage.

Proof?
Ascalon fractal boss has a meteor storm that deals 4X than elementalist (15.000 per meteor) without even the red circle on the ground

Nobody ever dies to it…
Now figure a spell that requires to stand in a red circle for 4 seconds then meteors starts to drop and probably will miss you.

Infact considering any meteor already has its own AOE cap per meteor its one of the few spells that is almost unaffected….and nobody cares because its just bad if not against siege machines.

Other aoes have the same issue….they need target to stand still for long in order to do anything….

What they should do is keep the cap on SOME spells and remove from some Others.

What WAS really broken as i said….was rtl into siege machines behind enemy lines into earthquake for a D/D ele….

that was indeed OP……but NO staff spell is.

But as i said in another thread i think aoe cap is to save bandwidth and stuff rarther than for balance…..

RyuDragnier.9476:

So you want to make it so Staff Elementalists (and other AoE abusing builds) can take down entire zergs by themselves and become massively overpowered? Because that’s probably what would happen, causing ANet to pull a massive AoE nerf across the board that would effect PvE as well and make AoE useless. I SAY NAY!

The problem is the Zerg mentality. All of you who oppose removing AoE limit are all for Zerg.

teg.1340:

Were AOE professions to strong in DAOC RVR due to no AOE cap? No.
Did all just have played AOE professions in DAOC RVR? No.
Did no AOE cap has prevented zergs in DAOC RVR? No, but…
Did smaller zergs had a chance to win against larger zergs? Yes!!

If I remember well, DaoC had all mages stand still during their casts and any damage would interrupt the spell and send it to full cooldown? It’s not really the same. Melee classes could rush dowkittenerg of casters and shut them down in the process. Do the same here and each mage a melee attacks will be defending himself with AoE spells since that’s all he has, and he’ll be damaging you and EVERY other melee that is charging with you. And you will be damaged by every single mage that is defending himself at the same time.

Remove AoE limit and you will instantly obsolete all melee classes that aren’t big AoE using casters themselves.

FateZero.8536:

The problem is the Zerg mentality. All of you who oppose removing AoE limit are all for Zerg.

If you just remove it, it’ll just shift the zerg problem. Instead of seeing hybrid melee/AoE zergballs, we’ll see AoE zergs that insta-kill the opposition. Is that supposed to be better? Its already horrible enough today with massive necro bombing groups.

So I’m against it as a single solution and I am against zergs. Your argument is invalid.

In the example of a 50 man zerg vs a 10 man zerg, the 50 man already has clear advantage, why give them even more advantage just by having more players?

Exactly. Which is why introducing a limit to the amount of people that can hit you at once is the real solution. 50 vs 5 will still have an advantage in terms of manpower but they wouldnt be able to use their numbers as an insta-kill advantage. In fact, the 5 people will have the exact same damage possiblity against 50 as 50 has against 5. Thus, the zergball breaks… Because there is no longer any massive advantage to engage lower numbers with higher numbers.

I fully support the removal of AOE cap, its stupid and lazy design.

For the ones who thinks its possible for a few elles to kill an entire zerg I have 1 Word, retaliation!

Do you realize that with the removal of the AOE cap, a zerg would have retaliation up as well, from 1 source.

If a elle cast a AOE on a stacked zerg at a keep door he would be a oneshot.

If the AOE cap for ALL skills would be removed I think everything would be more interesting, boons/conditions would be so fun to use, a zerg would have almost perma swiftness/protection/retaliation/regeneration due to duration stacking, and that would mean boon corruption gets more important.

Zerg vs Zerg fights would require more tactic then today, since you can protect your zerg by just bloobing up, preventing more then 5 people getting hurt from each aoe skill.

Feed back, necro AOE fear, epedemic.., I say even zerg VS zerg would be awsome fun with the AOE cap removed!

I think, that with the AOE cap removed, individual fighting in zerg vs zerg will be stronger, you will be able to see players fighting players instead of spamming auto attack and running through.

Dawdler.8521:

FateZero.8536:

The problem is the Zerg mentality. All of you who oppose removing AoE limit are all for Zerg.

If you just remove it, it’ll just shift the zerg problem. Instead of seeing hybrid melee/AoE zergballs, we’ll see AoE zergs that insta-kill the opposition. Is that supposed to be better? Its already horrible enough today with massive necro bombing groups.

tell me

If opponent spread how easy is to kill many of them with aoes?
its not!

When there were no cap…it happened some players tried the tactic you said…
There is still the vid of them being whiped by 5 players with roaming builds….

Now roaming classes are just to troll people…once they were exactly good to prevent aoe spam.
And everyone were happy (i still say that SOME aoe should keep the cap….but mostly CC aoe spells too fast to react to).

So you get back anti AoE classes and tactics that currently are useless.
Until then you will be forced into zerg while 2 classes (not ele) can workaround cap for profit -.-

There are a large number of techniques which a player could use while being AOEd to mitigate the amount of damage taken.

- Stop standing in the fire
- Counter with your own healing AOEs, which would hopefully also benefit from a raised cap
- Attack fortified locations from the comfort of a Trebuchet
- Use blocking abilities to prevent projectile-based AOEs from hitting you
- Retaliation
- Use ranged weapons rather than melee weapons to allow your group to spread out and reduce the number of players hit with an AOE at a time

An intelligent group of players will still be able to overcome enemy defenses, despite the potential power of these AOEs, and might even be able to seriously exploit them for themselves. At the end of the day, the goal should ultimately be to make play more interesting for both parties, and I think at least raising the possible power an AOE-based character could put out would make it more interesting.

Also, to the people saying “Lol, everyone will just take an AOE build!”; sure, more people will take an AOE build. But there are still plenty of different roles which necessitate different specs, and small-group raiders wouldn’t be significantly affected. Right now, the best way to beat a zerg is to disperse and backcap, and what would really change after an AOE cap removal?

Out of curiosity, what if there were a WvWvW ability that, when purchased, would raise the target cap for your abilities while in WvWvW?

Sarrs.4831:

Out of curiosity, what if there were a WvWvW ability that, when purchased, would raise the target cap for your abilities while in WvWvW?

What if there were a WvWvW ability that reduced damage and conditions and CC received specifically from AoE skills?

what about no?
everyone would get that resulting basically in a plain AoE nerf.
And worsening the issue.

stof.9341:

Sarrs.4831:

Out of curiosity, what if there were a WvWvW ability that, when purchased, would raise the target cap for your abilities while in WvWvW?

What if there were a WvWvW ability that reduced damage and conditions and CC received specifically from AoE skills?

I’d be skeptical about it because plenty of abilities are TECHNICALLY AOEs, but not actually used as them. See: just about every melee weapon.

If it were “reduced damage from AOE effects when 5 or more players are effected, not counting siege weapons”, maybe.

In all that, I find it funny. Funny because ANet said they find AoE to be OP currently compared to single target skills. And so they said to be working on a case by case AoE nerfs to make them more in line with the rest of the skills.

And even before that nerf is ready, people already want a MASSIVE AoE skill buff in WvW. You do not do a massive buff like that to something that is OP.

If you uncap the AoE target limits, any big group will become death for any melee class that tries to approach them and be useful. No matter how many melee there are.

stof.9341:

In all that, I find it funny. Funny because ANet said they find AoE to be OP currently compared to single target skills. And so they said to be working on a case by case AoE nerfs to make them more in line with the rest of the skills.

And even before that nerf is ready, people already want a MASSIVE AoE skill buff in WvW. You do not do a massive buff like that to something that is OP.

If you uncap the AoE target limits, any big group will become death for any melee class that tries to approach them and be useful. No matter how many melee there are.

What massive buff to AoE? As I’ve mentioned in the other topic, this is only a buff if more than 5 people stand in the radius of any AoE, which would suggest they are fairly clumped up together. Instakill zergs? I don’t even get that, why can’t people realize that if a zerg adapts to no AoE limit (spread out, duh) it won’t ever get one-shotted? It’s only relevant if people will stick with the silly zergball tactic. Melee classes becoming obsolete? I can only see them become more viable actually, because now (without AoE limit) they can run into a spread out zerg, without instantly getting focused down by one massive zergball. People keep thinking up these hypothetical scenarios that make no sense. Same goes with thinking that thiefs and mesmers would become useless because of their lack of AoE. Consider a zergball versus a spread out zerg, in which case would a thief have an easier time picking off targets? Exactly, the answer here should be clear. Saying thiefs don’t have AoE is silly anyway, because cluster bombs can actually pack some great damage.

Sure, retaliation, buffs to allies and even some offensive AoE abilities (mass knockback, powerful AoE with a wide radius) could become too powerful, but balancing would have to be done with such abilities in mind and indiviual caps could be introduced. Like some sort of retaliation cap, which I’ve mentioned earlier as well.

You can’t go with “uncapped AoE will allow us to destroy zergs” and conclude “It won’t buff AoE much”. It is a massive buff to AoE plain and simple.

It’s not about destroying zergs, its about changing zerg mentality and tactics. Obviously you didn’t understand much of any of the arguments.

Can we stop using zergs full of sleepwalkers in our arguments for aoe?

Meteors already laugh at the aoe cap and we hardly see single eles devastating entire zergs now, so why would it be different without an aoe cap? If zergs want to be cute and stack up tons and tons of boons with no aoe cap then obviously they’re asking for well of corruption.

People also need to stop acting like aoes are some kind of instant death bolt from the blue. They put down giant red circles and generally require targets to be stationary to do anything close to maximum damage. Sure, there are aoe cc moves that can trap people, but there are also aoe condition clears to free them. Every play has a counter-play.