Guild Wars 2

Yams.6082:

I am okay with the zerging. On T4 and below (hint: get out of the T1/2 zergfests), servers can’t maintain 30+ people on more than one map. If you don’t like the zerg, go to a different map. I think it’s foolish to introduce mechanics which allow a group of 5 to take out a group of 15. Numbers are always a viable tactic. All I see is a bunch of people who don’t like the meta for WvW and want the game mechanics changed to suit their purposes.

The problem is that numbers right now are not just a viable tactic, but the ONLY real tactic as very few things can break up a huge zerg…I would argue that really only another zerg can do that. Really dumbs down WvW a lot.

Phoenix.3416:

For the game to be balanced both single target and AOE need to be balanced or everyone would role an elementalist and single target builds would never be used.

It also messes up the balance between classes. If my engineer can do AOE damage at 1500 range and your Elementalist cant, enough engineers could wipe your zerg before you got into range. The Elementalist would need a higher DPS per skill to counter the range between the two classes.

Dodging is not infinite, you can only dodge twice per X amount of time, so claiming players can dodge to avoid damage is silly when I could use 5 skills before your 3rd dodge is possible.

Okay, lets address all three main points here quickly.

1) No one will aim for single-target builds, yeah, no. AoE damage is still paltry in comparison to single-target and even if it did happen ,good. WvW is about lots of players. The counter to lots of players is lots of damage to lots of players. This is pretty basic logic, I would hope even the most base WvW player takes that into account.

2) If your engineer can PBAoE kill me from range before I get close, then the engineer needs a nerf. Fact is, it can’t. Invalid argument. If there is lots of players running up, the same thing will happen, they won’t be dead.

3) Dodging isn’t the only way to get out of a circle… I’m pretty sure walking out is a fairly practical method.

If every class had the same skills, ranges and DPS it would be fine to remove it but since they are so different balancing single target to AOE and AOE to AOE of different ranges would be near impossible for anets small team.

At best I can only think of adding skill based attacks. such as every player as a skill that can block an AOE and dodges to avoid single target. Really you cant dodge a shockwave by rolling into it but you can stick down a field to block its path. While you can dodge roll from a single target attack like a bullet.

If every class had these skills upping the AOE limit wouldnt be so bad as everyone had a counter, single target builds would have more anti AOE skills such as the engineers forcefield allowing them to stop a few attacks in the same way dodging easily avoids single target attacks.

Think swirling winds for every class for anti aoe and siege.

Phoenix.3416:

If every class had the same skills, ranges and DPS it would be fine to remove it but since they are so different balancing single target to AOE and AOE to AOE of different ranges would be near impossible for anets small team.

At best I can only think of adding skill based attacks. such as every player as a skill that can block an AOE and dodges to avoid single target. Really you cant dodge a shockwave by rolling into it but you can stick down a field to block its path. While you can dodge roll from a single target attack like a bullet.

If every class had these skills upping the AOE limit wouldnt be so bad as everyone had a counter, single target builds would have more anti AOE skills such as the engineers forcefield allowing them to stop a few attacks in the same way dodging easily avoids single target attacks.

Think swirling winds for every class for anti aoe and siege.

You seem to think AoE is super powerful damage, it’s not. I can stand in a Meteor Shower and survive just fine. The most powerful AoE’s are melee that make you vulnerable as hell, see Churning Earth.

If you are dumb enough to stand in a red circle, or not watch the players around you, then yeah, you deserve to take the hits.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Phoenix.3416:

For the game to be balanced both single target and AOE need to be balanced or everyone would role an elementalist and single target builds would never be used.

It also messes up the balance between classes. If my engineer can do AOE damage at 1500 range and your Elementalist cant, enough engineers could wipe your zerg before you got into range. The Elementalist would need a higher DPS per skill to counter the range between the two classes.

Dodging is not infinite, you can only dodge twice per X amount of time, so claiming players can dodge to avoid damage is silly when I could use 5 skills before your 3rd dodge is possible.

Okay, lets address all three main points here quickly.

1) No one will aim for single-target builds, yeah, no. AoE damage is still paltry in comparison to single-target and even if it did happen ,good. WvW is about lots of players. The counter to lots of players is lots of damage to lots of players. This is pretty basic logic, I would hope even the most base WvW player takes that into account.

2) If your engineer can PBAoE kill me from range before I get close, then the engineer needs a nerf. Fact is, it can’t. Invalid argument. If there is lots of players running up, the same thing will happen, they won’t be dead.

3) Dodging isn’t the only way to get out of a circle… I’m pretty sure walking out is a fairly practical method.

1. So single target builds should be removed from the game instead of balanced to compete with AOE? Logic.
2. Thats a debate in itself, if i have a superior range that you cant get into or you have lost 1/3+ of your health before you can defend yourself thats a problem especially if you are in a large group. If your entire zerg can have that much health removed from it before it can attack back thats a balance problem

Against a single target in melee range my engineer build can do over 12k damage within a few seconds to 5 targets if the attacks crit. Two engineers doing that could kill 5 players instantly. If it wasn’t for the high glass cannon requirement for that kind of build and if the aoe limit didnt exist you would get alot of zergs getting wiped by small groups of players that take them by surprise.

Melee characters would be useless against range if ranged could wipe half a zerg before the melee got into attack range. The reason the AOE limit works is because 5 players can’t easily wipe 30 so even if they score a few kills the melee range players will still get to the ranged in time to attack.

3. dodging is the only way to get out of some AOE skills since the first warning you get is the red circle on the ground, firestorm for example. If you are crippled you arent escaping that and if the game lags slightly you wont be able to escape that circle in time. without the aoe limit that could be an instant kill if the attacks used the skill at the same time at the same target.

I love how 90% of these people don’t understand ele AOE. Maybe thats why they are getting destroyed by it, lol. Make a staff ele, look at their skills and then say “Ohh kitten, thats easy to get out of if I’m paying attention”
And sure, single target damage needs to be buffed. I mean just look at thieves/ranger pets! They really don’t do much single target damage at all, poor wittle guys!

RyuDragnier.9476:

So you want to make it so Staff Elementalists (and other AoE abusing builds) can take down entire zergs by themselves and become massively overpowered? Because that’s probably what would happen, causing ANet to pull a massive AoE nerf across the board that would effect PvE as well and make AoE useless. I SAY NAY!

Or… wait for it… wait for it… zergs won’t be able to stack anymore.

You’re forgetting about retaliation.

We already have threads where people are complaining that they throw a few grenades into a zerg and take 10k damage. Now you want to remove the AoE cap so that they take 30k damage instead. Good plan, mate.

Removing the AoE cap will encourage more zerging and more stacking, not less, because the zerg will just stack retaliation and run straight into every AoE and everything casting the AoEs will die from the extra hits.

Phoenix.3416:

1. So single target builds should be removed from the game instead of balanced to compete with AOE? Logic.

WvW is not the entire game. Please stop making ignorant statements as if to demonize anothers position.

2. Thats a debate in itself, if i have a superior range that you cant get into or you have lost 1/3+ of your health before you can defend yourself thats a problem especially if you are in a large group. If your entire zerg can have that much health removed from it before it can attack back thats a balance problem

Against a single target in melee range my engineer build can do over 12k damage within a few seconds to 5 targets if the attacks crit. Two engineers doing that could kill 5 players instantly. If it wasn’t for the high glass cannon requirement for that kind of build and if the aoe limit didnt exist you would get alot of zergs getting wiped by small groups of players that take them by surprise.

Melee characters would be useless against range if ranged could wipe half a zerg before the melee got into attack range. The reason the AOE limit works is because 5 players can’t easily wipe 30 so even if they score a few kills the melee range players will still get to the ranged in time to attack.

Make up your mind for what you are arguing. Your engineer can do 12k damage to melee, but magically ranged will be dead? And as for ranged AoE (which is PBAoE btw), those all have tells, if you run right into them, as I said you deserve to take the damage.

3. dodging is the only way to get out of some AOE skills since the first warning you get is the red circle on the ground, firestorm for example. If you are crippled you arent escaping that and if the game lags slightly you wont be able to escape that circle in time. without the aoe limit that could be an instant kill if the attacks used the skill at the same time at the same target.

No AoE skill cripples/locks you AND does massive damage. If you get AoE controlled, that is on YOU to first avoid it, then either cleanse or break it. If you stand still long enough for two coordinated players to lock you and then launch a massive damage AoE, you deserve to die, you were outmatched.

Your arguments cater to people who are skill-less. That is not good game design.

lettucemode.3789:

You’re forgetting about retaliation.

We already have threads where people are complaining that they throw a few grenades into a zerg and take 10k damage. Now you want to remove the AoE cap so that they take 30k damage instead. Good plan, mate.

Removing the AoE cap will encourage more zerging and more stacking, not less, because the zerg will just stack retaliation and run straight into every AoE and everything casting the AoEs will die.

So the zerg will run INTO AoE and die… to kill a single player? I’m sorry, what?

Phoenix.3416:

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Phoenix.3416:

For the game to be balanced both single target and AOE need to be balanced or everyone would role an elementalist and single target builds would never be used.

It also messes up the balance between classes. If my engineer can do AOE damage at 1500 range and your Elementalist cant, enough engineers could wipe your zerg before you got into range. The Elementalist would need a higher DPS per skill to counter the range between the two classes.

Dodging is not infinite, you can only dodge twice per X amount of time, so claiming players can dodge to avoid damage is silly when I could use 5 skills before your 3rd dodge is possible.

Okay, lets address all three main points here quickly.

1) No one will aim for single-target builds, yeah, no. AoE damage is still paltry in comparison to single-target and even if it did happen ,good. WvW is about lots of players. The counter to lots of players is lots of damage to lots of players. This is pretty basic logic, I would hope even the most base WvW player takes that into account.

2) If your engineer can PBAoE kill me from range before I get close, then the engineer needs a nerf. Fact is, it can’t. Invalid argument. If there is lots of players running up, the same thing will happen, they won’t be dead.

3) Dodging isn’t the only way to get out of a circle… I’m pretty sure walking out is a fairly practical method.

1. So single target builds should be removed from the game instead of balanced to compete with AOE? Logic.
2. Thats a debate in itself, if i have a superior range that you cant get into or you have lost 1/3+ of your health before you can defend yourself thats a problem especially if you are in a large group. If your entire zerg can have that much health removed from it before it can attack back thats a balance problem

Against a single target in melee range my engineer build can do over 12k damage within a few seconds to 5 targets if the attacks crit. Two engineers doing that could kill 5 players instantly. If it wasn’t for the high glass cannon requirement for that kind of build and if the aoe limit didnt exist you would get alot of zergs getting wiped by small groups of players that take them by surprise.

Melee characters would be useless against range if ranged could wipe half a zerg before the melee got into attack range. The reason the AOE limit works is because 5 players can’t easily wipe 30 so even if they score a few kills the melee range players will still get to the ranged in time to attack.

3. dodging is the only way to get out of some AOE skills since the first warning you get is the red circle on the ground, firestorm for example. If you are crippled you arent escaping that and if the game lags slightly you wont be able to escape that circle in time. without the aoe limit that could be an instant kill if the attacks used the skill at the same time at the same target.

Single target has its place, just as AoE has its place, just because you refuse to acknowledge this does not mean the rest of us do not understand this. There is a reason they both exist, and its quite aparent you refuse to see this so don’t expect anyone to explain it to you.

Phoenix.3416:

1. So single target builds should be removed from the game instead of balanced to compete with AOE? Logic.
2. Thats a debate in itself, if i have a superior range that you cant get into or you have lost 1/3+ of your health before you can defend yourself thats a problem especially if you are in a large group. If your entire zerg can have that much health removed from it before it can attack back thats a balance problem

Against a single target in melee range my engineer build can do over 12k damage within a few seconds to 5 targets if the attacks crit. Two engineers doing that could kill 5 players instantly. If it wasn’t for the high glass cannon requirement for that kind of build and if the aoe limit didnt exist you would get alot of zergs getting wiped by small groups of players that take them by surprise.

Melee characters would be useless against range if ranged could wipe half a zerg before the melee got into attack range. The reason the AOE limit works is because 5 players can’t easily wipe 30 so even if they score a few kills the melee range players will still get to the ranged in time to attack.

3. dodging is the only way to get out of some AOE skills since the first warning you get is the red circle on the ground, firestorm for example. If you are crippled you arent escaping that and if the game lags slightly you wont be able to escape that circle in time. without the aoe limit that could be an instant kill if the attacks used the skill at the same time at the same target.

1. He didn’t say that

2. I’ve never had a class that has superior range do that much damage to me before I can get to them. I think they are balanced around that.

3. There are mobility utilities too and in that case you should just save your dodges for when you’re crippled and walk out when you’re not. As was stated before AoE is not as powerful as you’re making it out to be and if you’re getting one or two shot by AoE then your gear needs some serious attention.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

lettucemode.3789:

You’re forgetting about retaliation.

We already have threads where people are complaining that they throw a few grenades into a zerg and take 10k damage. Now you want to remove the AoE cap so that they take 30k damage instead. Good plan, mate.

Removing the AoE cap will encourage more zerging and more stacking, not less, because the zerg will just stack retaliation and run straight into every AoE and everything casting the AoEs will die.

So the zerg will run INTO AoE and die… to kill a single player? I’m sorry, what?

They won’t die, whoever is hitting them with AoE’s will die first. It could be a huge group of people casting them, doesn’t matter. An Ele uses staff fire 3 to hit a group of 12 players for 2k each, ele takes 4000 damage. Grenade engineer hits a clump of 10 players with 1 grenade throw, engineer takes 9000 damage. Clearly, removing AoE cap will lower the dominance of zergs and stacks….

Removing AoE cap altogether is probably not the best solution. I mean, you all think about the elementalist perspective. Let me give you my thief perspective: Shadow Refuge + Zerg + No AoE cap = Invisible army just like before the end of culling.

You really want to get back to that?

lettucemode.3789:

You’re forgetting about retaliation.

We already have threads where people are complaining that they throw a few grenades into a zerg and take 10k damage. Now you want to remove the AoE cap so that they take 30k damage instead. Good plan, mate.

Removing the AoE cap will encourage more zerging and more stacking, not less, because the zerg will just stack retaliation and run straight into every AoE and everything casting the AoEs will die from the extra hits.

Retaliation only hits for ridiculous numbers when the zerg is stacked. And the zerg is stacked because there is a limit on AoE.

If zergs did not stack, and spread out, retaliation damage would be manageable.

Thrumdi.9216:

lettucemode.3789:

You’re forgetting about retaliation.

We already have threads where people are complaining that they throw a few grenades into a zerg and take 10k damage. Now you want to remove the AoE cap so that they take 30k damage instead. Good plan, mate.

Removing the AoE cap will encourage more zerging and more stacking, not less, because the zerg will just stack retaliation and run straight into every AoE and everything casting the AoEs will die from the extra hits.

Retaliation only hits for ridiculous numbers when the zerg is stacked. And the zerg is stacked because there is a limit on AoE.

If zergs did not stack, and spread out, retaliation damage would be manageable.

It goes both ways though. Why would they spread out when they do more damage by stacking together because the AoEs are hitting more people per cast?

Removing the AoE limit isn’t a solution to stacking/zerging while retaliation exists.

Sevenred.3890:

Removing AoE cap altogether is probably not the best solution. I mean, you all think about the elementalist perspective. Let me give you my thief perspective: Shadow Refuge + Zerg + No AoE cap = Invisible army just like before the end of culling.

You really want to get back to that?

This is the only valid argument I have seen, I’m sure there would be a work around but I’ll admit I’m not sure how without nerfing AoE stealths.

Single target has its place, but since entire classes are more focused on it that AOE if you remove the AOE cap those single target builds have to be buffed to compensate the change.

If you removed the limit but did not buff the single target then those builds would be useless and everyone would be forced into aoe. Then every skill would need to be balanced drastically for example Can you imagine how badly it would end if a small group could invul into a zerg and knockback the entire zerg? or fire all aoe they had into the gate as the attackers run into it? chokepoints would be instant kill zones

Arrow carts have a cap of what 50? Can you imagine attacking a tower with 20 arrow carts? that would be a slaughter. The wall would prevent players from attacking at full power and rams would be impossible to place as the defenders could focus all aoe on 1 spot and wipe the entire group in seconds.

Either way I don’t think removing the cap works how you guys think it would. it would be a major buff to AOE classes but both sides would be able to do the same, it doesnt really stop the zerging it just makes them spread out more.

I predict it wouldn’t stop zerging, it would just shorten fights. players would focus all aoe from the zerg into 1 spot and instantly kill groups of players. sure 10 players might be able to attack a zerg of 50 but those 50 will survive and wipe most of those 10 instantly then simply rez the fallen making a zerg unbeatable. if the aoe limit is removed from both sides the zerg can abuse it to, unless they are attacking a group of less than 5 they benefit from the aoe limit removal more I think.

It would take years to balance all of the classes, can you imagine shadows refuge on an entire zerg? or aoe buffs giving 50 players fury, might, ret, aegis?

The zerg would be buffed more than anything, they could simply outbuff the smaller force by stacking 25 might to every player in the zerg.

Understand me, I’m all for having a niche build for elementalist as anti-zerg specialists. I wouldn’t mind that. But really there is enough QQ on thieves already. You remove the AoE cap and most of the forums will want to ban the thief class completely.

Nuzt.7894:

Sevenred.3890:

Removing AoE cap altogether is probably not the best solution. I mean, you all think about the elementalist perspective. Let me give you my thief perspective: Shadow Refuge + Zerg + No AoE cap = Invisible army just like before the end of culling.

You really want to get back to that?

This is the only valid argument I have seen, I’m sure there would be a work around but I’ll admit I’m not sure how without nerfing AoE stealths.

Is it capped now? I think I’ve seen around 10 people use a single shadow refuge before. Could be wrong, though.

lettucemode.3789:

Nuzt.7894:

Sevenred.3890:

Removing AoE cap altogether is probably not the best solution. I mean, you all think about the elementalist perspective. Let me give you my thief perspective: Shadow Refuge + Zerg + No AoE cap = Invisible army just like before the end of culling.

You really want to get back to that?

This is the only valid argument I have seen, I’m sure there would be a work around but I’ll admit I’m not sure how without nerfing AoE stealths.

Is it capped now? I’ve seen 12-15 people use a single shadow refuge before.

It is capped to 5 like any other AoE. What you think about is mesmer’s veil which is not capped.

When I see people clumping together to avoid AOEs I cry irl.

If Zergs were forced to SPREAD out and use tactics, the game would be much healthier overall for all.

Um… And to above… Thieves don’t have NEARLY the aoe that necromancers do.

Actually, the more i think about it the more im sure the cap removal would buff the zerg.

imagine the zerg going under refuge at the same time, throwing down every aoe buff they had and the entire zerg having literally every buff at 25 stacks before a fight.

the group of 10 would never get as many buffs as the 50, those 50 could then scatter and be dealing a larger % of damage against the smaller group.

Throw in healing and the smaller group would be screwed, since aoe heals would hit the entire zerg. out of curiosity since I don’t play healing if those 10 players attack the 50, and 20 players attack back and 30 play support and heal nonstop even if grouped together how long would the zerg survive? if you have 3x the healers to the incoming attackers

I dont know healing figures so cant estimate.

they should remove the limit on spell based attack AOE’s but also lower the dmg on Melee Based AOE’s, only the person targeted should be hit for max dmg on a weapon based AOE.

In addition keep the limit on buff based AOE’s.

Phoenix.3416:

Actually, the more i think about it the more im sure the cap removal would buff the zerg.

imagine the zerg going under refuge at the same time, throwing down every aoe buff they had and the entire zerg having literally every buff at 25 stacks before a fight.

the group of 10 would never get as many buffs as the 50, those 50 could then scatter and be dealing a larger % of damage against the smaller group.

Throw in healing and the smaller group would be screwed, since aoe heals would hit the entire zerg. out of curiosity since I don’t play healing if those 10 players attack the 50, and 20 players attack back and 30 play support and heal nonstop even if grouped together how long would the zerg survive? if you have 3x the healers to the incoming attackers

I dont know healing figures so cant estimate.

the aoe ca kitten .. smaller groups usually have 3-9 people who do spread out. Aka, this won’t effect them at all.

Haste just got nerfed.

Coordination like that is rare. People should be rewarded for playing that way, however the 10 Timewarps offer a huge “target” for the enemy.

Yay.. perma 25 mightm perma regenn perme protectionn perma swiftness, perma stability and perma retaliation, while getting 2.5k health every 0.5 seconds, ontop regen, guardian regen aura and ele regen aura, and condition cleared every 0.25 seconds if not less.Altruistic healing with no target cap on AoE for shouts, and Virtues…
Shoutheals from Warriors…
Aura sharing from Eles
Oh and I nearly forgot.. a stationary zerg would be perma hasted, I mean get 10 mesmers and just rotate timewarp…It would just encourage stacking and zerging even more, do people really think that removing the AoE cap only works into one direction? Clearly 5 people could have chances vs a zerg if all aoes would have their target cap removed.And don’t even start, it should only be offensive AoEs because this is an all or nothing deal.

then 10 players could focus on a group of 2 and still wipe the entire smaller group instantly. 5 groups of 10 split up and scattered focusing on a small group of those players each would be just as deadly surely.

The zerg can spread out too and even if you kill a few unless you get them in a choke point they are going to wipe the smaller group due to more buffs, mass invis and the power to rez everyone after youre groups wiped.

What kind of dps increase would the zerg have with full stacks of every upgrade and invisibility on just before they fight that smaller group? the zerg can buff up and spread out then focus on downing players 1 at a time?

RyuDragnier.9476:

Nuzt.7894:

RyuDragnier.9476:

So you want to make it so Staff Elementalists (and other AoE abusing builds) can take down entire zergs by themselves and become massively overpowered? Because that’s probably what would happen, causing ANet to pull a massive AoE nerf across the board that would effect PvE as well and make AoE useless. I SAY NAY!

Do you die now if your in an Ele’s AoE ? Don’t stand in the AoE, it really is that simple.

If you refuse to move out of the AoE, you deserve to die.

When I’m dying due to Ele AoE, I’m either dazed, knocked down, immobilized, knocked back into it, or the worst one…I’ve been lagged into it. And considering how it is ikittenerg, that last one happens a lot, though I don’t normally zerg unless we’re taking a tower, keep, or defending one. I prefer roaming in small groups and causing havoc.

This. Two zergs meet, AoE confusion, followed by AoE damage. Everyone in the front line of the smaller group dies, unless they had time to get retaliation up which is partly dependent on lag.

Can you imagine the effect of 20 necros using fear constantly? while the other players attack?

I hate fear with a passion ¬_¬

Folk.2093:

In addition keep the limit on buff based AOE’s.

Yea, there’s no reason we can’t have uncapped AoE damage and capped AoE buffs.

The problem may not be the AOE cap rather than the siege. Give better damage to Arrow Carts and I guarantee the zerg will spread out every time.

Removing AoE cap altogether is probably not the best solution. I mean, you all think about the elementalist perspective. Let me give you my thief perspective: Shadow Refuge + Zerg + No AoE cap = Invisible army just like before the end of culling.
You really want to get back to that?

I imagine their code can tell the difference between AEs that deal damage and AEs that give effects such as stealth. Remove the cap from the former, leave the cap on the latter.

I imagine they would need to limit conditions too, can you imagine how powerful confusion based builds would be against a player? full stacks of confusion would instantly down players if they used a skill if it could be used aoe.

Mass cripple, knockdown,fear, bleeding etc wouldnt they have to be limited if aoe buffs are limited to balance it out? if you can put conditions on a full zerg but can only remove from 5 players at a time?

+1, but with a drop off in damage. Also, fix the rally system while you’re at it!

It’s obvious why anyone would argue for the cap.. It’s cause they’re bad or lazy.

So basically we go from:
- Remove AoE cap, to;
- Remove AoE cap on offensive skills only, to;
- No really we only want the elementalist to crush zergs, mesmers are too OP already

I really doubt that the solution you elaborate is as simple as you suggest to implement because it would require too much new limitations.

Work with what is already in place. Sieges do not have such a restrictive AoE limit. Why not work around those?

And to repeat myself, I really wouldn’t mind some sorts of zerg busting builds with no AoE cap, but this won’t be fun if I constantly have 25 stacks of confusion and perma-crippled on me which punish me because I’m remotely close of a 5-men zerg busting group even when I’m solo.

Sevenred.3890:

Removing AoE cap altogether is probably not the best solution. I mean, you all think about the elementalist perspective. Let me give you my thief perspective: Shadow Refuge + Zerg + No AoE cap = Invisible army just like before the end of culling.

You really want to get back to that?

And no one would aoe the kitten outta that stealth house I’m assuming =P

Yams.6082:

I am okay with the zerging. On T4 and below (hint: get out of the T1/2 zergfests), servers can’t maintain 30+ people on more than one map. If you don’t like the zerg, go to a different map. I think it’s foolish to introduce mechanics which allow a group of 5 to take out a group of 15. Numbers are always a viable tactic. All I see is a bunch of people who don’t like the meta for WvW and want the game mechanics changed to suit their purposes.

Are you suggesting that numbers wouldn’t still be a viable tactic?

You’re right, a lot of skilled players think that the current meta of the clump ball bushhog 11111111 spam NOMNOMNOM is pretty lame.

This again? Players dropping 200k or more damage with one ability is ridiculous. AoE is already broken and dominates the game why make it more so? If it is under the assumption that it will stop zerging, that will never happen with this change.

Imagine two big zergs fighting and dropping AoE… everything would be dead in a second with almost no chance to avoid the damage.

Dynnen.6405:

Sevenred.3890:

Removing AoE cap altogether is probably not the best solution. I mean, you all think about the elementalist perspective. Let me give you my thief perspective: Shadow Refuge + Zerg + No AoE cap = Invisible army just like before the end of culling.

You really want to get back to that?

And no one would aoe the kitten outta that stealth house I’m assuming =P

I’m sure you can think of broken situations and abuse of a 12 second stealthed army

Harbinger.9645:

The problem is that numbers right now are not just a viable tactic, but the ONLY real tactic as very few things can break up a huge zerg…I would argue that really only another zerg can do that. Really dumbs down WvW a lot.

Yes, the only tactic to deal with a zerg is with another zerg, and that’s just the way it should be. I don’t understand why everyone wants to be Rambo and take on five or 10 enemies at once and win. WvW is numbers and coverage. Do not try to change WvW into a PvE version of sPvP, because sPvP already exists for those who only want to fight five or fewer people.

I would also like to point out that those who clamour for guild vs. guild are essentially asking for organized zerg vs. zerg. I didn’t realize that massing with people from the same guild is distinct from massing with people of different guilds.

The fact that this thread is showing up in the WvW subforum tells me its the “zergs must go” argument rearing its ugly head in another form. If anyone truly feels the AoE cap should be removed, post your thoughts in the GW2 Discussions subforum. This is a change that affects all players, PvE and WvW alike.

Yams.6082:

Harbinger.9645:

The problem is that numbers right now are not just a viable tactic, but the ONLY real tactic as very few things can break up a huge zerg…I would argue that really only another zerg can do that. Really dumbs down WvW a lot.

Yes, the only tactic to deal with a zerg is with another zerg, and that’s just the way it should be. I don’t understand why everyone wants to be Rambo and take on five or 10 enemies at once and win. WvW is numbers and coverage. Do not try to change WvW into a PvE version of sPvP, because sPvP already exists for those who only want to fight five or fewer people.

I would also like to point out that those who clamour for guild vs. guild are essentially asking for organized zerg vs. zerg. I didn’t realize that massing with people from the same guild is distinct from massing with people of different guilds.

The fact that this thread is showing up in the WvW subforum tells me its the “zergs must go” argument rearing its ugly head in another form. If anyone truly feels the AoE cap should be removed, post your thoughts in the GW2 Discussions subforum. This is a change that affects all players, PvE and WvW alike.

“Don’t do anything to make zerging less effective!”

- SBI

Straegen.2938:

This again? Players dropping 200k or more damage with one ability is ridiculous. AoE is already broken and dominates the game why make it more so? If it is under the assumption that it will stop zerging, that will never happen with this change.

Imagine two big zergs fighting and dropping AoE… everything would be dead in a second with almost no chance to avoid the damage.

How’s AoE already broken? I see zergs stand in the middle of our AoE and they don’t care in the slightest, mostly because of the limit. How does this make sense? And you’re greatly exaggerating what the removal of the AoE cap would do. If anything, it would force zergs to spread out more and actually try to avoid the enemy AoE. Noone is going to be instantly killed if they are atleast paying some attention to their surroundings rather than just spamming their nr. 1 skill in the zergball.

As for retaliation becoming a problem, they could just cap the maximum amount of retaliation damage any player is able to receive per second. Same goes for buffs becoming too powerful, just introduce a cap to skills like Shadow Refuge that is seperate from other skill caps. I think such a cap should be dependant on how strong a buff actually is for any amount of people to have.

Bigger and better map design would help with the blob problem. I would think that the counter to one giant horde is either an even bigger army or to break up into smaller groups and hit several places at once to force the horde to also split and defend. But maps are small and the home waypoint allow it to easily march to a besieged holding’s defense far better than a few siege engines on thin walls ever could.

But I think if we had bigger maps with more chokepoints, such as long and narrow bridges, it would mitigate the strength of the blob and encourage realms to split up their forces, because they couldn’t just roll from one end of the map to the other in less than a minute.

Dynnen.6405:

“Don’t do anything to make zerging less effective!”

- SBI

And.. it wouldnt make having large numbers any less effective! It would just make stacking as SOP to be less viable. To me, it just makes sense that standing in the fire is going to hurt more than.. not standing in the fire. Maybe Im crazy though.

And.. it wouldnt make having large numbers any less effective! It would just make stacking as SOP to be less viable. To me, it just makes sense that standing in the fire is going to hurt more than.. not standing in the fire. Maybe Im crazy though.Even if buffs were also made unlimited AoE, to pull it off you will need to be able to do so under a storm of AoE. That seems rather balanced as a concept, though individual skills may need specific adjustment when it comes to real life implementation (perhaps like retaliation and shadow refuge).

Yams.6082:

Yes, the only tactic to deal with a zerg is with another zerg, and that’s just the way it should be. I don’t understand why everyone wants to be Rambo and take on five or 10 enemies at once and win. WvW is numbers and coverage. Do not try to change WvW into a PvE version of sPvP, because sPvP already exists for those who only want to fight five or fewer people.

I would also like to point out that those who clamour for guild vs. guild are essentially asking for organized zerg vs. zerg. I didn’t realize that massing with people from the same guild is distinct from massing with people of different guilds.

The fact that this thread is showing up in the WvW subforum tells me its the “zergs must go” argument rearing its ugly head in another form. If anyone truly feels the AoE cap should be removed, post your thoughts in the GW2 Discussions subforum. This is a change that affects all players, PvE and WvW alike.

Removing the AoE cap isn’t about taking out entire zergs with small numbers. Even without the cap zergs will still win easily against much smaller groups if they’re not stupid enough to all stand still in the exact same spot.

If they remove the AoE cap, what’s to stop large zergs from eating anything smaller then them?

Tuluum.9638:

Dynnen.6405:

“Don’t do anything to make zerging less effective!”

- SBI

And.. it wouldnt make having large numbers any less effective! It would just make stacking as SOP to be less viable. To me, it just makes sense that standing in the fire is going to hurt more than.. not standing in the fire. Maybe Im crazy though.

And.. it wouldnt make having large numbers any less effective! It would just make stacking as SOP to be less viable. To me, it just makes sense that standing in the fire is going to hurt more than.. not standing in the fire. Maybe Im crazy though.Even if buffs were also made unlimited AoE, to pull it off you will need to be able to do so under a storm of AoE. That seems rather balanced as a concept, though individual skills may need specific adjustment when it comes to real life implementation (perhaps like retaliation and shadow refuge).

Exactly, and I think you touched on the thing that is preventing any lasting improvements to wvw. You would have to adjust things for wvw specifically. Unfortunately its just not in the cards (so far) =/

Dual.8953:

If they remove the AoE cap, what’s to stop large zergs from eating anything smaller them them?

Skill, tactics, and coordination, that and basically just using their brain.

It’s a fair point that no AoE cap for skills that grant boons and stealth could be… problematic. Cripes, mesmers are important enough as-is, imagine what it would be like if Time Warp worked on an entire zerg!

Might wanna keep the cap for skills like that, though I think exceptions for boons like regeneration and swiftness would be warranted. It would kinda make sense – regeneration and swiftness are more passive boons, and wouldn’t take as much power to grant as boons like protection and might. It also makes sense that maintaining a sort of forcefield that would make up the protection boon on multiple people would be more difficult than simply spewing fire at enemies.

RyuDragnier.9476:

So you want to make it so Staff Elementalists (and other AoE abusing builds) can take down entire zergs by themselves and become massively overpowered? Because that’s probably what would happen,

Sun Tzu had a solution to this problem.

I believe he said, “Move”.