Remove the Cap on Daily Achievement Points

Remove the Cap on Daily Achievement Points

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

This is kinda my reaction. Maybe it is because I am not at the cap yet, but I had ZERO idea people were ONLY logging in for that 10 points a day.

No, it’s not like that. I would make sure I logged in, but I spent the vast majority of my time in non-daily activities. But, now, I have to talk myself into just logging in. Once I’m in, I’ll usually do some mapping for whatever on top of dailies.

Are you listening ANet? Diminishing returns would accomplish the same goal, without penalizing your most loyal fans. You do it EVERYWHERE in this game. Why not for APs?

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

…Anet can slowly raise the cap every once in a while when they feel it is best. Of course, no one sad it will be raised either. Just being optimistic.

They have never raised the cap, nor even responded to the question “why?”

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

If you want it removed, help ANet figure out how to achieve the goals they consider important to the game’s health, not just any individual’s personal goals.

Diminishing returns would make it easy. Just make the dailies worth only 8 once you hit 10,000, and 6 @ 20,000, etc. But, don’t take them completely away.

That’s an interesting idea.

I’ve generally advocated that they set a benchmark amount of AP to shoot for each year. If they release that much via new chieves, then leave the cap alone; if they don’t, then increase the cap 1-2x/year, so that there’s always room for growth among veterans.

DR would definitely slow acquisition down. But it also feels like ANet is punishing veterans. In contrast, raising the cap (to me) seems like ANet is expanding options, rather than reducing them.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

All of which didnt provide as much AP to players as the system we have in place today

If you think that 5 ap per separate daily (up to 25 ap each day from pve, and a few more from pvp), and monthly AP on top of that wasn’t as much ap as is available currently…

Yeah, it was much, much easier to get to cap for old players, than it is for new ones. And now old players do not even need to work at all to keep that advantage.

Yeah, this system significantly favours veterans that are currently on top, but do not want to put any effort in playing anymore, and makes sure that the new players will not be able to catch up. It also punishes those veterans that are still highly active, which is a realy weird design goal.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Getting to the cap is a little slower but how many people actually did 10+ daily achievements consistently every day with the old system?

I have missed 34 days since launch (a 30-day boycott and 4 days where I didn’t have a computer).

Well, up until they screwed us over for being loyal players. Now it’s not so important to me to play every day.

Diminishing returns I could see. But, a hard cap is just ludicrous. It makes no sense whatsoever to penalize your most loyal customers. But, there it is.

“Penalizing” to some loyal customers and a relief to others.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

All of which didnt provide as much AP to players as the system we have in place today

If you think that 5 ap per separate daily (up to 25 ap each day from pve, and a few more from pvp), and monthly AP on top of that wasn’t as much ap as is available currently…

Yeah, it was much, much easier to get to cap for old players, than it is for new ones. And now old players do not even need to work at all to keep that advantage.

Um, no. The old daily system involved much more work to manage 5 AP/day compared to the new systems 10/day. Those willing to do 11+ achievement certainly reach the cap sooner, but it was a lot more work.

In contrast, the old monthly system rewarded an additional 50 AP per 30 days, which generally was easily obtained for most categories within a week (often much less).

Yeah, this system significantly favours veterans that are currently on top, but do not want to put any effort in playing anymore,

The cap (April 2014) came 8 months before the reduction in potential AP/day (Jan 2015). Thus the new system of exactly 10 AP/day had little impact among those at the top of the leaderboards — those folks were going to hit the cap soon with or without the change.

and makes sure that the new players will not be able to catch up.

No, the reason that new players cannot catch up is that there are 1400+ points that are locked behind historical achievements.

The cap ensures that new players can catch up to still-active veterans: they “just” need to reach the cap themselves, while finishing all the other still-earnable achievements. (Something that will take them less time than a lot of veterans, although it will be slower than the most earnest AP-hunters.)


Of course, neither of these data points impact the validity of your main point (which, I’m afraid, you sort of hid beneath the other verbiage):

It also punishes those veterans that are still highly active, which is a realy weird design goal.

Yes, the cap feels like a punishment to veterans, regardless of the reasons for implementing it.

Whether or not it was part of any “design goal” (weird or otherwise) is a moot point to me. What matters (to me) is that it is dispiriting for veterans to reach the cap (typically without understanding why they stopped earning AP) and that there’s still what feels like a content drought in this game, for 8-10 weeks every quarter.

I’m not sure what ANet is supposed to do about it though. When content came as often as it did in LS1, we complained that it was too quick, too rushed, and insufficiently rewarding in terms of loot (outside of RNG). Now that they’ve made LS repeatable, we complain that it’s too slow (and of course, insufficiently rewarding — I doubt that there’s any way to avoid that complaint).

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

and makes sure that the new players will not be able to catch up.

No, the reason that new players cannot catch up is that there are 1400+ points that are locked behind historical achievements.

Without a daily cap, latecomers could catch up to retired top-of-the-bill veterans. I think that’s what Astralporing is getting at anyway. With the cap, these retired veterans will be uncatchable for many years to come. As many years as it takes to earn up to 1400 newly added AP

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Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

By ‘retired’, do you mean players that no longer play the game? Would there conceivably be a time where all the ‘veterans’ stopped playing so ‘new players’ could catch up?

Or is the goal of these ‘new players’ just to get their name on the Leaderboard? How many players (current, retired, or yet-to-play) even look at the Leaderboards, much less aspire to be named on it?

I don’t think the cap ever had anything to do with ‘new players’ catching up. Because, in my opinion, that’s just impossible as long as there are ‘veterans’ still playing, even if said ‘veterans’ only play for a few days with each content release.

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

That’s an interesting idea.

I’ve generally advocated that they set a benchmark amount of AP to shoot for each year. If they release that much via new chieves, then leave the cap alone; if they don’t, then increase the cap 1-2x/year, so that there’s always room for growth among veterans.

DR would definitely slow acquisition down. But it also feels like ANet is punishing veterans. In contrast, raising the cap (to me) seems like ANet is expanding options, rather than reducing them.

Actually, it’s penalizing veterans as it is. DR would just punish us less.

It happens all over the place in the game. At each character level, the next level costs more XP. At each crafting level, the next one costs more (up to a certain point). After level 80, XP is worth a lot less than before. Etc.

And, if they diminish the returns the right way, we wouldn’t even notice it.

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

“Penalizing” to some loyal customers and a relief to others.

If it truly is a relief to some, they have a strange understanding of reward. That’s not at all logical.

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

By ‘retired’, do you mean players that no longer play the game? Would there conceivably be a time where all the ‘veterans’ stopped playing so ‘new players’ could catch up?

Or is the goal of these ‘new players’ just to get their name on the Leaderboard? How many players (current, retired, or yet-to-play) even look at the Leaderboards, much less aspire to be named on it?

I don’t think the cap ever had anything to do with ‘new players’ catching up. Because, in my opinion, that’s just impossible as long as there are ‘veterans’ still playing, even if said ‘veterans’ only play for a few days with each content release.

Again, until ANet TELLS us their reasons, we can’t debate the motives at all, at least not validly.

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Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

/blinks

Again, in my opinion, there would not be much to debate about what their motives were, if they told us their motives.

But, as I said, it is my opinion that the cap was not implemented to allow ‘new players’ to catch up, since they never can (because of retired APs).

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

I don’t care about why there’s a cap, I’m just analysing the effects of the cap and challenging the weird notion that the cap allows people to catch up, whether or not that is the intended effect. It just baffles me that people think this catching-up thing is true at all.

With the cap, veterans that don’t or hardly play any more can’t be caught in a timespan of less than 5-7 years and veterans that still play can’t be caught at all.

The cap just rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

Also, I haven’t seen a single reasonable argument in favor of the cap.

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

Also, I haven’t seen a single reasonable argument in favor of the cap.

Currently the top Leaderboard AP numbers are 34k plus. The top AP chests that have an armor backpiece skin is 42k. After that it’s only Pinnacle weapons to 56k with no reward skins past that point. Right now the top Leaderboard players can only get new AP from new achievements. If they also were getting a steady 10 AP a day from dailies all this time then they would reach the 42k and then the 56k that much faster.

The cap means that ANet doesn’t have to put resources into more AP armor or weapon skins for a very, very long time. To my mind, that explains the reason for the cap very well.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Achievement_rewards

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

(edited by Just a flesh wound.3589)

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

Also, I haven’t seen a single reasonable argument in favor of the cap.

Currently the top Leaderboard AP numbers are 34k plus. The top AP chests that have an armor backpiece skin is 42k. After that it’s only Pinnacle weapons to 56k with no reward skins past that point. Right now the top Leaderboard players can only get new AP from new achievements. If they also were getting a steady 10 AP a day from dailies all this time then they would reach the 42k and then the 56k that much faster.

The cap means that ANet doesn’t have to put resources into more AP armor or weapon skins for a very, very long time. To my mind, that explains the reason for the cap very well.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Achievement_rewards

…and, because ANet also likes to kill multiple birds with the same stone, it allows them to look responsive to achievement hunters with limited self control.

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

I’ve seen those arguments before. Still waiting for reasonable ones.

If catering to people with limited self control were a valid issue, we wouldn’t have had gaming. Tetris wouldn’t have hit the market. Not a reasonable argument.

Creating a tiny handful of new cosmetic rewards on a yearly basis shouldn’t be an issue. It pales in comparison to the amount of new content they should be offering on a yearly basis anyway.

But let’s suppose it is an issue, for the sake of the argument. Even then, there is absolutely no obligation to actually offer new cosmetics at the same rate past the point where the existing ones will run out. Saying “you can’t have daily AP because we can’t include one particular thing to go along with it” is like saying “you can’t have a pizza because we ran out of one particular topping”. It’s a non-argument.

(edited by Manasa Devi.7958)

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

Also, I haven’t seen a single reasonable argument in favor of the cap.

Currently the top Leaderboard AP numbers are 34k plus. The top AP chests that have an armor backpiece skin is 42k. After that it’s only Pinnacle weapons to 56k with no reward skins past that point. Right now the top Leaderboard players can only get new AP from new achievements. If they also were getting a steady 10 AP a day from dailies all this time then they would reach the 42k and then the 56k that much faster.

The cap means that ANet doesn’t have to put resources into more AP armor or weapon skins for a very, very long time. To my mind, that explains the reason for the cap very well.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Achievement_rewards

…and, because ANet also likes to kill multiple birds with the same stone, it allows them to look responsive to achievement hunters with limited self control.

That too. But if you ever wonder why a company makes a decision, the saying “Follow the money” gets you the reason almost every time.

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

With the cap, these retired veterans will be uncatchable for many years to come. As many years as it takes to earn up to 1400 newly added AP

If they plan to add those un-obtainable achievement points into the game in the future, then we wait.
If they do not, then increasing the daily cap up to as many of the historical achievements someone is missing is the best solution.

Do dailies to cover up any missing AP, with the start of LS2 there are no more “historical achievements” anymore aside from holidays. I think the holiday achievements shouldn’t be counted for this because they give an extra reason to play during each holiday, but all the other story Achievements need to be acquired somehow, and increasing the daily cap to compensate for those is a good way of doing this.

For example, if you are missing 343 AP that are impossible to get now, your daily cap is 15343 AP instead of 15000. You are missing absolutely nothing? Then your daily cap is exactly 15000 AP.

It’s more work, but a fair system that won’t go against any of the reasons for having the cap in the first place.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

and makes sure that the new players will not be able to catch up.

No, the reason that new players cannot catch up is that there are 1400+ points that are locked behind historical achievements.

Without a daily cap, latecomers could catch up to retired top-of-the-bill veterans. I think that’s what Astralporing is getting at anyway. With the cap, these retired veterans will be uncatchable for many years to come. As many years as it takes to earn up to 1400 newly added AP

I still don’t follow the logic:

  • Without a cap, veterans continue to earn 10 AP/day and there’s never any way to catch up.
  • With a cap, the only gap is the 1400+ historical AP. There will never be any way for new players to make up for that, because headstart players will also be able to earn whatever new achievements become available.

The only veterans to whom new players can catch up would be those who stopped playing, in which case, AP acquisition no longer matters.

(And again, to be clear: I have never been in favor of ANet worrying about a cap, whether to add one or remove it. Rewards have never been the most appealing part of this — or any — game for me.)

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Shaman.4513

Shaman.4513

Ok, I agree with you. Anything capped should be removed. We need more Achi points, not just 1 point 1 point 1 point and 1 point from most of the new introduced stuff. its crazy.
and since we are talking about caps, could you please remove the 2000 decorations cap in guild halls. we hit that ages ago and would like to continue decorating.. the size of the guild hall is like a continent, not a home instance. it should allow more stuff in it.

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

The only veterans to whom new players can catch up would be those who stopped playing

Which is what I was saying. But how idiotic is it that active players can’t even catch up with lapsed players? That is proper awful.

in which case, AP acquisition no longer matters.

That’s only true if you just consider the issue from a comparative perspective. Many people actually don’t. Many people only see their own progress stunted. Whatever it is they progress toward, be it a fancy “achiever” title or an ugly weapon, it’s not my place to judge.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

“Penalizing” to some loyal customers and a relief to others.

If it truly is a relief to some, they have a strange understanding of reward. That’s not at all logical.

The reward being that they no longer have to grind for AP similar to the reward of some infinite achievements (i.e. salvage and dungeon) having a cap so players don’t have to continuously grind those.

I still don’t follow the logic:

  • Without a cap, veterans continue to earn 10 AP/day and there’s never any way to catch up.
  • With a cap, the only gap is the 1400+ historical AP. There will never be any way for new players to make up for that, because headstart players will also be able to earn whatever new achievements become available.

The only veterans to whom new players can catch up would be those who stopped playing, in which case, AP acquisition no longer matters.

(And again, to be clear: I have never been in favor of ANet worrying about a cap, whether to add one or remove it. Rewards have never been the most appealing part of this — or any — game for me.)

And they’d still catch up to those players regardless with new achievements added to the game.

(edited by Ayrilana.1396)

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

The reward being that they no longer have to grind for AP similar to the reward of some infinite achievements (i.e. salvage and dungeon) having a cap so players don’t have to continuously grind those.

That still doesn’t make any sense. People are “rewarded” for being forced to stop something implies that they didn’t want to do it in the first place? So, they can reward themselves by simply stopping.

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Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

But, we all catch up to players that have previously quit playing, unless we quit, as well. I don’t think that’s what ‘new players’ think of if they are trying to ‘catch up’. If the cap is solely, or even partly, in place to allow ‘new players’ to ‘catch up’, what exactly are said ‘new players’ ‘catching up’ to? Is it a certain number of APs? A place on the Leaderboards? If so, which place?

Then again, maybe I don’t understand the term ‘catch up’ in this scenario.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

The reward being that they no longer have to grind for AP similar to the reward of some infinite achievements (i.e. salvage and dungeon) having a cap so players don’t have to continuously grind those.

That still doesn’t make any sense. People are “rewarded” for being forced to stop something implies that they didn’t want to do it in the first place? So, they can reward themselves by simply stopping.

No different than those who refuse to do all of the achievements to earn those armor skins like everyone else because doing so isn’t fun. The armor skins are for those that went out and achieved things in the game from doing a multitude of various tasks. They’re not something that can just be obtained from simply doing your three dailies and biding your time.

(edited by Ayrilana.1396)

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Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

Well, we don’t really know that. It could turn out to be like the ‘Hats’ in Guild Wars. They were unattainable for a long time, then, after 7 years, became easily attainable.

Achievement Chest skins might become easily attainable in the future, just by logging in, or something even easier.

What could be done is add Wardrobe Unlocks to the Achievement Chests. As it is now, there’s not much motivation to even try for their rewards, seeing as the Pinnacle skins are so far out of reach for many.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

All of which didnt provide as much AP to players as the system we have in place today

If you think that 5 ap per separate daily (up to 25 ap each day from pve, and a few more from pvp), and monthly AP on top of that wasn’t as much ap as is available currently…

Yeah, it was much, much easier to get to cap for old players, than it is for new ones. And now old players do not even need to work at all to keep that advantage.

Um, no. The old daily system involved much more work to manage 5 AP/day compared to the new systems 10/day. Those willing to do 11+ achievement certainly reach the cap sooner, but it was a lot more work.

…i am talking now about one of the earliest iterations. The one that gave 5 ap per each daily (up to 25 ap per day for pve dailies alone). And some of them were quite comparable to the current ones (do 5 events anywhere in the game. Gather 20 materials. kill 5 veteran mobs. dodge 15 attacks… and so on. Most of them were being completed just by playing the game normally)

In contrast, the old monthly system rewarded an additional 50 AP per 30 days, which generally was easily obtained for most categories within a week (often much less).

Older iterations could give even more for doing all monthlies (up to 100 ap i think)

Yeah, this system significantly favours veterans that are currently on top, but do not want to put any effort in playing anymore,

The cap (April 2014) came 8 months before the reduction in potential AP/day (Jan 2015). Thus the new system of exactly 10 AP/day had little impact among those at the top of the leaderboards — those folks were going to hit the cap soon with or without the change.

Again, i am referring to an even older daily system.

Remember, the cap was set at this value, because it was really close to what the highest AP players had at the moment. It took less than 2 years for them to do something than new players will need over twice as much time to achieve.

I’m not sure what ANet is supposed to do about it though. When content came as often as it did in LS1, we complained that it was too quick, too rushed, and insufficiently rewarding in terms of loot (outside of RNG). Now that they’ve made LS repeatable, we complain that it’s too slow (and of course, insufficiently rewarding — I doubt that there’s any way to avoid that complaint).

I don’t think it’s a matter of how fast the new content appears, but of how much it is worth in ap’s. AP rewards for early eachievements were much, much bigger than there are for new ones. With the possible (and hopeful) exception of the newest Knight of Thorns one, most of the new achieves are worth no more than 1-5 ap’s, with the majority being closer to the lower value.

This, by the way, only accerbates the problem of the no longer unobtainable old achievements – to get as many ap’s now requires much more content and effort.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

I still don’t follow the logic:

  • Without a cap, veterans continue to earn 10 AP/day and there’s never any way to catch up.
  • With a cap, the only gap is the 1400+ historical AP. There will never be any way for new players to make up for that, because headstart players will also be able to earn whatever new achievements become available.

There is a difference.
In the first situation, to keep advantage, veteran need to continue playing at the same rate as before – doing both new achievements and dailies. In the second case, veterans need only to stay at the top of new achieves (and, in case of permanent achieves, can be very lazy about doing them, as they can always catch up). They can afford to slow down, because they know that this does not decrease the distance between them and the new players.

But, we all catch up to players that have previously quit playing, unless we quit, as well.

Sure, but the AP difference in both dailies then and now, and in “current events” then and now sets new players back by several years already. That’s on top of the time difference caused by the simple fact that they started later, of course.
So, if the top player stopped playing today, then (barring some significant influx of new ap’s, like new expac) someone that started today would need not 4.5, but more like 8-9 years to catch up to that point, even if they were to work really hard and do everything possible as hard as that no longer active player.
And 9 years from now the game might not even be there.

And that assumes that the veteran player quit completely, instead of logging in for just few days each holiday and hitting the easiest achievements.

Ap cap makes sure that this distance cannot be shortened by people that remain more active.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Rather than quoting folks who replied to my post above, I’ll try to make my position more clear:

  • I don’t support a cap.
  • I don’t think ANet gave enough weight to the sense that people have that they are punished for being veterans. While it’s not technically true, it sure feels like it, which matters more than the numbers do.
  • I do recognize that ANet has at least two important reasons for establishing one, neither with anything to do with helping people maintain their position on a leaderboard.
  • Consequently, I don’t support removing the cap simply because some of us don’t like it and #feels-bad-man.

I’d rather see ANet spend their limited resources on overhauling loyalty rewards generally (including revisiting the idea of a cap), rather than micromanaging any single detail, not matter how many threads we see on the topic.

edit: removed aggressive kittenizer

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

(edited by Illconceived Was Na.9781)

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

I’m uncertein whether or not I support a cap. But the OP has got a point: There’s no new achievements for wvw, so if you’re playing wvw you’ve got the same problem now as you’ve had before they lowered the requirements: You won’t be getting any AP for the time you’re spending in this game – and that is unfair.

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

I do recognize that ANet has at least two important reasons for establishing one, neither with anything to do with helping people maintain their position on a leaderboard.

People keep saying this, but ANet hasn’t.