Guild Wars 2

Before that (long time ago) we have Omnomberry food, with 66% on crit to steal health.
And it was without cooldown. So, you was able to high up your crit rate and steal health nearly every 2nd hit and it was a huge compensation against retaliation. Not 100% but really huge.
But then they fixed that food and it has 2 sec cooldown. But they are not fixed Retaliation!
Give us our heal-on-hit food back! That trait "heal if kit equipped" or 150 HP/sec this is just a spit on the face!

Or remove AOE-Retaliation from combo-effects.

SilverWF.4789:

Before that (long time ago) we have Omnomberry food, with 66% on crit to steal health.
And it was without cooldown. So, you was able to high up your crit rate and steal health nearly every 2nd hit and it was a huge compensation against retaliation. Not 100% but really huge.
But then they fixed that food and it has 2 sec cooldown. But they are not fixed Retaliation!
Give us our heal-on-hit food back! That trait “heal if kit equipped” or 150 HP/sec this is just a spit on the face!

Or remove AOE-Retaliation from combo-effects.

It has a 1 second cooldown. The reason why is that spammable skills that hit dozens of times per second, or for example engie FT, you could keep yourself at full health permanently. Working as intended.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

SilverWF.4789:

Before that (long time ago) we have Omnomberry food, with 66% on crit to steal health.
And it was without cooldown. So, you was able to high up your crit rate and steal health nearly every 2nd hit and it was a huge compensation against retaliation. Not 100% but really huge.
But then they fixed that food and it has 2 sec cooldown. But they are not fixed Retaliation!
Give us our heal-on-hit food back! That trait “heal if kit equipped” or 150 HP/sec this is just a spit on the face!

Or remove AOE-Retaliation from combo-effects.

It has a 1 second cooldown. The reason why is that spammable skills that hit dozens of times per second, or for example engie FT, you could keep yourself at full health permanently. Working as intended.

Before it was 2 sec. Anyway, 1 sec cooldown – too many. Because Retaliation do NOT have any cooldowns and with #1 of FT or with any of grenade kit skills you are literally killing yourself in a few seconds.
“working as intended” was before, when Omnomberry food was without cooldowns. Even in this case you wasn’t “at full HP”. Your crit.rate somewhere at 70-80%, also food has a 66% chance to steal life. Basically, there is every 2nd hit with life steal.
Retaliation hits you at the EVERY hit: crit or not, or even glanced – doesn’t matter.

So, there is a few options to fix retaliation:
1. Internal cooldown 1 sec for the same target. This will be best solution.
2. Retaliation will be affected by overall armor and buffs (Protection and anything else)
3. Retaliation will be scaled from Condition damage, not from Power
4. Retaliation will return 10% of incoming damage (after armor and damage reduction buffs), not fix value.
5. Remove AOE-Retaliation (and/or Light aura) from Light field+Blast finisher combo. This combo will give now Protection. AOE retaliation will still exist on skills only.

What you prefer?

I support your number 5. The boon sharing is strong enough as it is without the zerg retaliation on everyone in there.

SilverWF.4789:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

SilverWF.4789:

Before that (long time ago) we have Omnomberry food, with 66% on crit to steal health.
And it was without cooldown. So, you was able to high up your crit rate and steal health nearly every 2nd hit and it was a huge compensation against retaliation. Not 100% but really huge.
But then they fixed that food and it has 2 sec cooldown. But they are not fixed Retaliation!
Give us our heal-on-hit food back! That trait “heal if kit equipped” or 150 HP/sec this is just a spit on the face!

Or remove AOE-Retaliation from combo-effects.

It has a 1 second cooldown. The reason why is that spammable skills that hit dozens of times per second, or for example engie FT, you could keep yourself at full health permanently. Working as intended.

Before it was 2 sec. Anyway, 1 sec cooldown – too many. Because Retaliation do NOT have any cooldowns and with #1 of FT or with any of grenade kit skills you are literally killing yourself in a few seconds.
“working as intended” was before, when Omnomberry food was without cooldowns. Even in this case you wasn’t “at full HP”. Your crit.rate somewhere at 70-80%, also food has a 66% chance to steal life. Basically, there is every 2nd hit with life steal.
Retaliation hits you at the EVERY hit: crit or not, or even glanced – doesn’t matter.

So, there is a few options to fix retaliation:
1. Internal cooldown 1 sec for the same target. This will be best solution.

No. It will destroy retaliation as a condition. The only proffession which seems affected it grenadier engineer. Instead of changing this and needing to rework 5 classese just change grenades as a concept

2. Retaliation will be affected by overall armor and buffs (Protection and anything else)

Conditions ignore armor, just think what would happen if retaliation would be procced as a normal attack between 2 characters both with retaliation, The one with lowest health would insta die.
(as the attacks would retal 400, seen as an attack: proccing retal again, again, and again till 1 goes down….)

3. Retaliation will be scaled from Condition damage, not from Power

You can trait guardian that way (It returns quite a bit more dmg… as conditionscaling is different.)

4. Retaliation will return 10% of incoming damage (after armor and damage reduction buffs), not fix value.

OP. (when you throw a meteor shower and it procs 72 times for ~6k dmg……) 400 retal is good.

5. Remove AOE-Retaliation (and/or Light aura) from Light field+Blast finisher combo. This combo will give now Protection. AOE retaliation will still exist on skills only.

Retaliation isn’t the problem, it’s the amount of triggers on the grenade skill…

What you prefer?

Adding #6: Reduce the amount of grenades and so create les procs. 1 grenade per skill doing double dmg, with grenadier adding +50% dmg instead of 2 grenades base and 3 with grenadier.

Adding #7: Have throw grenades as a skill proc only once or twice for each retaliation carrying target per throw instead of 3 max…. Also reducing the amout of procs,

IMHO
I still don’t know for sure BUT: the 400 damage in 5 trows times 3 procs would result in 6kdmg , engineer being middlescaled in life should have ~16k health. so you’d lose only 37% of your health when attacking 1 target with 5 repeating attacks, which seems resonable…

Of course if you attack a group this would be multiplied by 5! Hence causing problems.., maybe grenades should proc less targets, maybe 2-3 targets per grenade, instead of 5??

BUT as a last question to the OP: I understand your problems with retaliation, but should 5 proffessions be rewritten and/or rebalanced? Or should the grenade skill be rewritten & rebalanced, or should grenades stay as they are now (which is quite strong if not one of the most powerfull skills vs groups) and should you accept the drawbacks of a skill which can give conditions and damage to 15 people at the same time? There is only a few skills which can tag as much targets, being 5 grenade skills….The end.

SilverWF if you’re talking a blob versus blob fights then you counter a blob with a blob. Tell your blob to bring more boon strip necros (they can do it with aoe’s) and use voice coms to make sure that your commander tells you when to unleash the barrage.

Do you really expect to throw whatever skills with no strategy at all and win?

Mirta.5029:

SilverWF if you’re talking a blob versus blob fights then you counter a blob with a blob. Tell your blob to bring more boon strip necros (they can do it with aoe’s) and use voice coms to make sure that your commander tells you when to unleash the barrage.

Do you really expect to throw whatever skills with no strategy at all and win?

Or, since he is playing an Engineer, he could also help by equipping and using the mine kit.

The mine field, particularly, is effective at helping boon strip large groups.

The point alot of people are trying to make in this thread is that there are alot of counters to retaliation. There is no need for a nerf.

SilverWF.4789:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

SilverWF.4789:

Before that (long time ago) we have Omnomberry food, with 66% on crit to steal health.
And it was without cooldown. So, you was able to high up your crit rate and steal health nearly every 2nd hit and it was a huge compensation against retaliation. Not 100% but really huge.
But then they fixed that food and it has 2 sec cooldown. But they are not fixed Retaliation!
Give us our heal-on-hit food back! That trait “heal if kit equipped” or 150 HP/sec this is just a spit on the face!

Or remove AOE-Retaliation from combo-effects.

It has a 1 second cooldown. The reason why is that spammable skills that hit dozens of times per second, or for example engie FT, you could keep yourself at full health permanently. Working as intended.

Before it was 2 sec. Anyway, 1 sec cooldown – too many. Because Retaliation do NOT have any cooldowns and with #1 of FT or with any of grenade kit skills you are literally killing yourself in a few seconds.
“working as intended” was before, when Omnomberry food was without cooldowns. Even in this case you wasn’t “at full HP”. Your crit.rate somewhere at 70-80%, also food has a 66% chance to steal life. Basically, there is every 2nd hit with life steal.
Retaliation hits you at the EVERY hit: crit or not, or even glanced – doesn’t matter.

So, there is a few options to fix retaliation:
1. Internal cooldown 1 sec for the same target. This will be best solution.
2. Retaliation will be affected by overall armor and buffs (Protection and anything else)
3. Retaliation will be scaled from Condition damage, not from Power
4. Retaliation will return 10% of incoming damage (after armor and damage reduction buffs), not fix value.
5. Remove AOE-Retaliation (and/or Light aura) from Light field+Blast finisher combo. This combo will give now Protection. AOE retaliation will still exist on skills only.

What you prefer?

None of it, except maybe 5. I’d prefer protection + the vuln on hit over retal. Keep the light aura, because it’s one of the nicer VFX they’ve added to the game as of late.

The solution is clearly to not have any attacks that hit more than once per second.

remember Chaos Armor ? initially there was no limit on how many times the attacker will get the conditions from it. then ANET nerfed it to 1 condition per second. but when a mesmer pop up a feedback on group of player with retaliation, he can die instantly due to the retaliation.

so yes, retaliation should be limited to 1 per second.

Some attacks will damage 1 target (max 400 retal) scepter/axe autoattacks
Some attacks will damage 2 targets (max 800 retal) thieve/necro daggers 180 melee
some attacks will damage 3 targets (max 1200 retal) swords/fireballs
Some attacks will damage 5 targets (2000 retal) marks
a few attacks hit 10-15 targets (4000-6000 retal) grenades….

looking over time:
Lava font can hit 5 procs * 5 targets 25 (10000 retal)
Symbols can hit 6 procs* 5 targets… 30 (12000 retal)
Wells can hit 7 procs * 5 targets 35 targets (14000 retal)
Rapid fire 10 procs with piercing arrows can hit up to 50 targets, (20000 retal)
Meteor shower 24 meteors with 3 hits each can hit up to 72 targets. (28800 retal)…
5 times a grenade skill will hit a max of 75 targets (30000 retal)…

Yes when you’re commited you are commited…. I cannot stop my Meteor shower, same as you cannot stop the grenades flying, I however have a nice telegraph lasting 3.5 seconds… Symbols and blass will always be there and it should not be changed, imagine the ele meta…. 20 ele’s on the wall and NOTHING you can o to stop it…. it will be Tha Age Of Armageddon…

Still If I’m right grenades can be reflected as well… so your friendly zerg will take some more walls of reflection, or the mesmer reflect, You can say well I can see them better, in which cas I’d say a target will show you a general idea of boons.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472 do you understand, what you are arguing without any meaning? Why you protecting retaliation?

"Conditions ignore armor"
Retaliation - condition? OMG! This is BOON!

"You can trait guardian that way"
What? What guardian? Why you said this? Do you understand from whose power it is scaled now? ><

"but should 5 proffessions be rewritten and/or rebalanced?"
Which profession? Seems like you are didn’t even know what you are talking about.
There is NO need to "rewrite" any profession

"when you throw a meteor shower and it procs 72 times for ~6k dmg"
This is not relevant example, I’ve already explained this.

"Retaliation isn’t the problem"
Retal IS the problem.

" Reduce the amount of grenades"
What? Grenadier will throw on big grenade instead of 3? Where is my facepalm.jpg?! Maybe, some kind of nuclear bomb, huh?
And what about Flamethrower? One huge hit, like an flame stick? LOL
Your words doesn’t have any meaning.
And based on your sign, you didn’t know what is Engineer, so continue funny me more, please.

"bring more boon strip necros"
Thank you, Captaion Obvious! You are helpful, as always. Sure, necros are something specific to my server only - other servers do not have it.

"None of it, except maybe 5"
LOL, one more "successful class player" came with his glorious opinion.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Some attacks will damage 1 target (max 400 retal) scepter/axe autoattacks
Some attacks will damage 2 targets (max 800 retal) thieve/necro daggers 180 melee
some attacks will damage 3 targets (max 1200 retal) swords/fireballs
Some attacks will damage 5 targets (2000 retal) marks
a few attacks hit 10-15 targets (4000-6000 retal) grenades….

looking over time:
Lava font can hit 5 procs * 5 targets 25 (10000 retal)
Symbols can hit 6 procs* 5 targets… 30 (12000 retal)
Wells can hit 7 procs * 5 targets 35 targets (14000 retal)
Rapid fire 10 procs with piercing arrows can hit up to 50 targets, (20000 retal)
Meteor shower 24 meteors with 3 hits each can hit up to 72 targets. (28800 retal)…
5 times a grenade skill will hit a max of 75 targets (30000 retal)…

Yes when you’re commited you are commited…. I cannot stop my Meteor shower, same as you cannot stop the grenades flying, I however have a nice telegraph lasting 3.5 seconds… Symbols and blass will always be there and it should not be changed, imagine the ele meta…. 20 ele’s on the wall and NOTHING you can o to stop it…. it will be Tha Age Of Armageddon…

Still If I’m right grenades can be reflected as well… so your friendly zerg will take some more walls of reflection, or the mesmer reflect, You can say well I can see them better, in which cas I’d say a target will show you a general idea of boons.

So, once per second for same target, OK.

SilverWF.4789 go confusion build or bring debuffs. Even if your blob is kittened and doesn’t think about their composition, you can think about what you’re bringing to the team.

And no, necros are not specific to your server, but we’re giving you advice on how to counter retaliation. You don’t need to have something exclusive for retaliation targeting for it to work.

Mirta.5029:

SilverWF.4789 go confusion build or bring debuffs. Even if your blob is kittened and doesn’t think about their composition, you can think about what you’re bringing to the team.

And no, necros are not specific to your server, but we’re giving you advice on how to counter retaliation. You don’t need to have something exclusive for retaliation targeting for it to work.

Am I need to repeat a link to video from THIS thread with good zerg fights or not? Or you can search similar vids by yourself and, maybe, you will able to understand where are you wrong…

Unlimited Retaliation procs is still an issue

So, lets get rid of one of the only mechanics thieves and engineers actually have to turn their brains on to deal with?

No.

naiasonod.9265:

So, lets get rid of one of the only mechanics thieves and engineers actually have to turn their brains on to deal with?

No.

No that’s not at all. Single retaliation is not a problem at all. It’s shared retaliation boon across a large group that makes this more than a bit annoying.

Mikali.9651:

I am playing warrior, guardian, ele and thief in wvw.
I don’t see a problem with retaliation at all, I got self heals, got blasts from waters, got positioning, and I press button to attack, it’s not on autoattack.

Never have I seen problem with retaliation in any part of a game

NONE of which have low dmg/high ticks damage.

naiasonod.9265:

So, lets get rid of one of the only mechanics thieves and engineers actually have to turn their brains on to deal with?

No.

Hahahhaa you clearly have very little understanding of either class. ESPECIALLY Engineer.

Novuake.2691:

naiasonod.9265:

So, lets get rid of one of the only mechanics thieves and engineers actually have to turn their brains on to deal with?

No.

Hahahhaa you clearly have very little understanding of either class. ESPECIALLY Engineer.

hahahahahhahahahahahahah answers still no hahaha lololol and I couldn’t care less.

So yeah, things relying on fast attacks get nailed hard by retaliation. Wade into layers of retaliation spamming fast attacks, kill yourself.

Sounds like a L2P issue, not a broken mechanic.

naiasonod.9265:

Novuake.2691:

naiasonod.9265:

So, lets get rid of one of the only mechanics thieves and engineers actually have to turn their brains on to deal with?

No.

Hahahhaa you clearly have very little understanding of either class. ESPECIALLY Engineer.

hahahahahhahahahahahahah answers still no hahaha lololol and I couldn’t care less.

So yeah, things relying on fast attacks get nailed hard by retaliation. Wade into layers of retaliation spamming fast attacks, kill yourself.

Sounds like a L2P issue, not a broken mechanic.

And the actually one who need to learn to play here is you.

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

Novuake.2691:

naiasonod.9265:

So, lets get rid of one of the only mechanics thieves and engineers actually have to turn their brains on to deal with?

No.

Hahahhaa you clearly have very little understanding of either class. ESPECIALLY Engineer.

hahahahahhahahahahahahah answers still no hahaha lololol and I couldn’t care less.

So yeah, things relying on fast attacks get nailed hard by retaliation. Wade into layers of retaliation spamming fast attacks, kill yourself.

Sounds like a L2P issue, not a broken mechanic.

And the actually one who need to learn to play here is you.

Your total lack of evidence to sustain your point is …well, rather typical. You don’t like my opinion? Good for you. I see it as neither being broken nor especially in need of any sort of nerf.

Spoiler: I have a thief that I play in wvw. There’s a magic trick to not killing yourself on layers of retal. I’m not going to tell you what it is.

You wanna tell me I don’t know how to play? Getin line – I swear I’ll care tomorrow. Promise.

I pop flamethrower and want to 30k burn anyone in a sec.
Oh wait, I’m downed….
Retaliation?!
NERF !@^%#%$

Mirta.5029:

SilverWF if you’re talking a blob versus blob fights then you counter a blob with a blob. Tell your blob to bring more boon strip necros (they can do it with aoe’s) and use voice coms to make sure that your commander tells you when to unleash the barrage.

Do you really expect to throw whatever skills with no strategy at all and win?

Yes. Yes he really seems to.

I coordinate with the guild I wvw with in voice. We never have these problems.

When people start yelling ‘Strip!’, bang banged bang, boon strip smorgasbord, and several corny jokes about being naked already.

Its already kinda faceroll. Why remove the benefits of being coordinated?

naiasonod.9265:

Mirta.5029:

SilverWF if you’re talking a blob versus blob fights then you counter a blob with a blob. Tell your blob to bring more boon strip necros (they can do it with aoe’s) and use voice coms to make sure that your commander tells you when to unleash the barrage.

Do you really expect to throw whatever skills with no strategy at all and win?

Yes. Yes he really seems to.

I coordinate with the guild I wvw with in voice. We never have these problems.

When people start yelling ‘Strip!’, bang banged bang, boon strip smorgasbord, and several corny jokes about being naked already.

Its already kinda faceroll. Why remove the benefits of being coordinated?

You cant have met any decent groups then. Because no matter how much you strip, any good coordinated group with have retal back up in full effect. If it even gets stripped in the first line of corruptions.

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

Novuake.2691:

naiasonod.9265:

So, lets get rid of one of the only mechanics thieves and engineers actually have to turn their brains on to deal with?

No.

Hahahhaa you clearly have very little understanding of either class. ESPECIALLY Engineer.

hahahahahhahahahahahahah answers still no hahaha lololol and I couldn’t care less.

So yeah, things relying on fast attacks get nailed hard by retaliation. Wade into layers of retaliation spamming fast attacks, kill yourself.

Sounds like a L2P issue, not a broken mechanic.

And the actually one who need to learn to play here is you.

Your total lack of evidence to sustain your point is …well, rather typical. You don’t like my opinion? Good for you. I see it as neither being broken nor especially in need of any sort of nerf.

Spoiler: I have a thief that I play in wvw. There’s a magic trick to not killing yourself on layers of retal. I’m not going to tell you what it is.

You wanna tell me I don’t know how to play? Getin line – I swear I’ll care tomorrow. Promise.

Lack of evidence? Lol! Read this thread and try to find something.
And your “pro” advice about boon strip too – already answered for this advice.

Tao.5096:

I pop flamethrower and want to 30k burn anyone in a sec.
Oh wait, I’m downed….
Retaliation?!
NERF !@^%#%$

30k burn? Are we playing in the same game? 5k per 2 sec channel – that’s a real numbers. And this numbers pretty usual for another classes, but they do not have Retal problems only because they have less numbers of hits.

aspirine.6852:

naiasonod.9265:

Mirta.5029:

SilverWF if you’re talking a blob versus blob fights then you counter a blob with a blob. Tell your blob to bring more boon strip necros (they can do it with aoe’s) and use voice coms to make sure that your commander tells you when to unleash the barrage.

Do you really expect to throw whatever skills with no strategy at all and win?

Yes. Yes he really seems to.

I coordinate with the guild I wvw with in voice. We never have these problems.

When people start yelling ‘Strip!’, bang banged bang, boon strip smorgasbord, and several corny jokes about being naked already.

Its already kinda faceroll. Why remove the benefits of being coordinated?

You cant have met any decent groups then. Because no matter how much you strip, any good coordinated group with have retal back up in full effect. If it even gets stripped in the first line of corruptions.

Some blobs are good and some aren’t. Sometimes we try to strip and burn and that works, sometimes we just chase each other around like loony toons.

I didn’t say it was an I Win button. Just the one punch followed as quickly as possible by many aoes and cleave spams.

Retaliation is not a major problem when nine of ten times, you can absolutely rely on another blob opening with their best aoe and condis. When my guild hits a Bob that’s not coordinated, they’re dead. It’s not really even a question.

Another coordinated blob? Well, that’s when it gets interesting. No?

naiasonod.9265:

Another coordinated blob? Well, that’s when it gets interesting. No?

Oh, God, “pro” players speaks, all get away!
Every blob uses the same tactic: stack, buff might, Veil, place fields, use blasts, then spam Staff#1. Sooooooooooooo “pro”.
So why the hell only Engineers must be punished by Retaliation?

Also, so “pro” players as you can’t even read. bet, you have no idea what I’m suggesting, you are just against that because… no, the “troll” word is restricted here
So you are against that, because you didn’t want to change everything in your gamestyle. Yeah, it is pretty easy to mindlessly spam blasts in blob. And thieves can do that much better than another classes.
Or you a kind of thieves who lurking NEAR blob fights and fastkills some wounded players. Or maybe just stomping.
“pro” player, LOL.

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

Novuake.2691:

naiasonod.9265:

So, lets get rid of one of the only mechanics thieves and engineers actually have to turn their brains on to deal with?

No.

Hahahhaa you clearly have very little understanding of either class. ESPECIALLY Engineer.

hahahahahhahahahahahahah answers still no hahaha lololol and I couldn’t care less.

So yeah, things relying on fast attacks get nailed hard by retaliation. Wade into layers of retaliation spamming fast attacks, kill yourself.

Sounds like a L2P issue, not a broken mechanic.

And the actually one who need to learn to play here is you.

Your total lack of evidence to sustain your point is …well, rather typical. You don’t like my opinion? Good for you. I see it as neither being broken nor especially in need of any sort of nerf.

Spoiler: I have a thief that I play in wvw. There’s a magic trick to not killing yourself on layers of retal. I’m not going to tell you what it is.

You wanna tell me I don’t know how to play? Getin line – I swear I’ll care tomorrow. Promise.

Lack of evidence? Lol! Read this thread and try to find something.
And your “pro” advice about boon strip too – already answered for this advice.

You know what’s pro? Getting good, not crying over a mechanic that’s barely even relevant if you’re not mindlessly spamming things while watching YouTube.

Seriously, some folks on this thread said some well observed things, and you know, maybe some different counters wouldn’t be a bad idea.

But no. Retaliation still has to be worth something in pve, and as it stands, it’s not broken anywhere.

But you’re clearly interested in seeing it balanced for large group PvP only. Have you even vaguely considered what the impact would be on the rest of the game?

Don’t fix what ain’t broke.

If your zerg died repeatedly because of well timed and coordinated retaliation coverage thrown in your faces, get good and don’t let them do that next time.

Or don’t.

Man, I’m not even pro wvw and this isn’t hard. What’s your deal?

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

Novuake.2691:

naiasonod.9265:

So, lets get rid of one of the only mechanics thieves and engineers actually have to turn their brains on to deal with?

No.

Hahahhaa you clearly have very little understanding of either class. ESPECIALLY Engineer.

hahahahahhahahahahahahah answers still no hahaha lololol and I couldn’t care less.

So yeah, things relying on fast attacks get nailed hard by retaliation. Wade into layers of retaliation spamming fast attacks, kill yourself.

Sounds like a L2P issue, not a broken mechanic.

And the actually one who need to learn to play here is you.

Your total lack of evidence to sustain your point is …well, rather typical. You don’t like my opinion? Good for you. I see it as neither being broken nor especially in need of any sort of nerf.

Spoiler: I have a thief that I play in wvw. There’s a magic trick to not killing yourself on layers of retal. I’m not going to tell you what it is.

You wanna tell me I don’t know how to play? Getin line – I swear I’ll care tomorrow. Promise.

Lack of evidence? Lol! Read this thread and try to find something.
And your “pro” advice about boon strip too – already answered for this advice.

You know what’s pro? Getting good, not crying over a mechanic that’s barely even relevant if you’re not mindlessly spamming things while watching YouTube.

Seriously, some folks on this thread said some well observed things, and you know, maybe some different counters wouldn’t be a bad idea.

But no. Retaliation still has to be worth something in pve, and as it stands, it’s not broken anywhere.

But you’re clearly interested in seeing it balanced for large group PvP only. Have you even vaguely considered what the impact would be on the rest of the game?

Don’t fix what ain’t broke.

If your zerg died repeatedly because of well timed and coordinated retaliation coverage thrown in your faces, get good and don’t let them do that next time.

Or don’t.

Man, I’m not even pro wvw and this isn’t hard. What’s your deal?

Its NOT just large groups.

Period.

SilverWF.4789:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Some attacks will damage 1 target (max 400 retal) scepter/axe autoattacks
Some attacks will damage 2 targets (max 800 retal) thieve/necro daggers 180 melee
some attacks will damage 3 targets (max 1200 retal) swords/fireballs
Some attacks will damage 5 targets (2000 retal) marks
a few attacks hit 10-15 targets (4000-6000 retal) grenades….

looking over time:
Lava font can hit 5 procs * 5 targets 25 (10000 retal)
Symbols can hit 6 procs* 5 targets… 30 (12000 retal)
Wells can hit 7 procs * 5 targets 35 targets (14000 retal)
Rapid fire 10 procs with piercing arrows can hit up to 50 targets, (20000 retal)
Meteor shower 24 meteors with 3 hits each can hit up to 72 targets. (28800 retal)…
5 times a grenade skill will hit a max of 75 targets (30000 retal)…

Yes when you’re commited you are commited…. I cannot stop my Meteor shower, same as you cannot stop the grenades flying, I however have a nice telegraph lasting 3.5 seconds… Symbols and blass will always be there and it should not be changed, imagine the ele meta…. 20 ele’s on the wall and NOTHING you can o to stop it…. it will be Tha Age Of Armageddon…

Still If I’m right grenades can be reflected as well… so your friendly zerg will take some more walls of reflection, or the mesmer reflect, You can say well I can see them better, in which cas I’d say a target will show you a general idea of boons.

So, once per second for same target, OK.

No I want it to remain what it is: -UNLIMITED-, it’s a deterrent. And you can say Oh my engi is so squishy, but I meant to say ALL other classes have a similar problem, retaliation is a Anti Spiking Tool. And you use grenades to spike. Why can’t this be understood?

Tha Age of Armageddon! Remember. hen you will be bombed by eles, and the wellmancers destroy you in wvw

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

Another coordinated blob? Well, that’s when it gets interesting. No?

Oh, God, “pro” players speaks, all get away!
Every blob uses the same tactic: stack, buff might, Veil, place fields, use blasts, then spam Staff#1. Sooooooooooooo “pro”.
So why the hell only Engineers must be punished by Retaliation?

Also, so “pro” players as you can’t even read. bet, you have no idea what I’m suggesting, you are just against that because… no, the “troll” word is restricted here
So you are against that, because you didn’t want to change everything in your gamestyle. Yeah, it is pretty easy to mindlessly spam blasts in blob. And thieves can do that much better than another classes.
Or you a kind of thieves who lurking NEAR blob fights and fastkills some wounded players. Or maybe just stomping.
“pro” player, LOL.

It’s pro to coordinate in mumble?

I feel flattered. Will be geniuses if we don’t wear pants on our heads, apparently.

And engineers aren’t being punished. You’re literally killing yourself using an ability you know can annihilate your own face in situations when stacked retal is assured.

But you’re gonna, y’know, just do it anyway. Your seem like the sort that just does whatever and is confused and angry when it doesn’t always work.

Also, no, not every blob does exactly that all the time. Just the ones led by whomever threw a tag up and started herding the cows around.

Really though. Coordination, mate. Try it.

This isn’t pro-l337 attitude either. This is ‘I wvw a few times a week with a huge guild that seems to be drunk most of the time, and we still romp around like a tornado because coordination’.

Nothing pro about it. The guys that trash us are probably pro though. We suspect them f being bear wrestling Siberians and ninjas.

If you’re dying to retal all the time… the problem really isn’t retaliation.

It really just isn’t.

[Suggestion]

• increase Retaliation damage from 400 to 600

Novuake.2691:

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

Novuake.2691:

naiasonod.9265:

So, lets get rid of one of the only mechanics thieves and engineers actually have to turn their brains on to deal with?

No.

Hahahhaa you clearly have very little understanding of either class. ESPECIALLY Engineer.

hahahahahhahahahahahahah answers still no hahaha lololol and I couldn’t care less.

So yeah, things relying on fast attacks get nailed hard by retaliation. Wade into layers of retaliation spamming fast attacks, kill yourself.

Sounds like a L2P issue, not a broken mechanic.

And the actually one who need to learn to play here is you.

Your total lack of evidence to sustain your point is …well, rather typical. You don’t like my opinion? Good for you. I see it as neither being broken nor especially in need of any sort of nerf.

Spoiler: I have a thief that I play in wvw. There’s a magic trick to not killing yourself on layers of retal. I’m not going to tell you what it is.

You wanna tell me I don’t know how to play? Getin line – I swear I’ll care tomorrow. Promise.

Lack of evidence? Lol! Read this thread and try to find something.
And your “pro” advice about boon strip too – already answered for this advice.

You know what’s pro? Getting good, not crying over a mechanic that’s barely even relevant if you’re not mindlessly spamming things while watching YouTube.

Seriously, some folks on this thread said some well observed things, and you know, maybe some different counters wouldn’t be a bad idea.

But no. Retaliation still has to be worth something in pve, and as it stands, it’s not broken anywhere.

But you’re clearly interested in seeing it balanced for large group PvP only. Have you even vaguely considered what the impact would be on the rest of the game?

Don’t fix what ain’t broke.

If your zerg died repeatedly because of well timed and coordinated retaliation coverage thrown in your faces, get good and don’t let them do that next time.

Or don’t.

Man, I’m not even pro wvw and this isn’t hard. What’s your deal?

Its NOT just large groups.

Period.

Then what? Spvp? Not really my thing, but I’d expect there to be a lot less retal stacking in spvp. Also, just as many ways to strip it. And no zerg to rely on having everything going almost all the time in.

So… If not just large group. Where?

Where else could this be seen as a problem? Honest question – I don’t think it is in wvw at all.

Where do you think it is otherwise?

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

No I want it to remain what it is: -UNLIMITED-, it’s a deterrent. And you can say Oh my engi is so squishy, but I meant to say ALL other classes have a similar problem, retaliation is a Anti Spiking Tool. And you use grenades to spike. Why can’t this be understood?

Tha Age of Armageddon! Remember. hen you will be bombed by eles, and the wellmancers destroy you in wvw

Not all classes have this problem. You didn’t know that, because you didn’t test all classes, as I’m.
Basically, all classes do the same dynamic AOE damage (not static AOE-fields, like in your example with Meteor Shower - only dumbs will stay in this).
Let’s compare Guardian Staff #1 (every blob uses it in 80% cases) and Engineer FT #1
For 2 seconds Guardian will able do 2 or 3 casts. Per 5 targets. 10-15 hitsback with retal.
Engi will hit 3 targets (this restriction by itself just LOL, also as lower range and cone angle - just LOL) with 5 _ hits per second, so this will be 30 hitsback with Retal.
They both will do same amount of damage, but Engi will be punished 3 times harder. Fair? Sure not.
Guardian Hammer #2 - it deals HUGE amount of damage with only 4 sec CD and only 5 Retaliation procs.
Engineer Grenade: 3 grenades per 5 targets each. 15 retal hitbacks every throw or 30 per second.
Fair? Sure not.

But with my main suggestion here it all will be more sustain for every class. Huge amount but rare hit classes wouldn’t noticed any changes.
But this will be more love for Engis.
Why?
Because 1 per second for same target from same target will be a huge change.
Flamethrower #1 will hits you only 6 times per 2 second channel instead of 30. And only if you hit the same targets every time. If targets will be different every time, so it will be 30 hits with retal again, but this is impossible, also as the same targets all the time. So it will be 10-15 hits, as everyone have now.

Or, they can change Omnomberry food again. Leech basically has a 2 parts: damage and heal. And this parts already separated and independent from each other. So let the damage part will have the current limit (1/sec) but the heal part will be unlimited, as it was before.

SilverWF.4789:

Hi there!
How about to make a limit for retaliation? Let it can hit the same target only once per second?
Or let it will be affected by Toughness and Armor
Or let it will scales up from Condition damage (since it ignoring armor, like any another conditions), but not from Power.

Because it really sucks while playing with multi-hit-per-second classes, for example Flamethrower/Grenade Engineer. You are able to literally kill yourself in 2-3 seconds only using your own offensive skills and even not being hit by enemies!

Since you think I don’t know what the op even is, here’s your sign.

Don’t use grenade and flamethrower when you know you’re just going to kill yourself. Get smarter than that. Coordinate. Get some people set up to strip boons and have them synchronize use of them just a bit. Time your burst to right after the strippers (formal title) rip the prot and retal stacks down.

In the meantime, get some thieves and rangers coordinating into guardian kill squads. Kill all guardians. Kill all mesmers too. But guardians especially.

It sounds more complicated than it is. And it works pretty well.

Just follow a tag and do whatever when blobs collide and, honestly, what were you expecting to eventually happen?

You should be rewarded for being smart, not have the matter dumbed down so you don’t have to try anymore.

Mikali.9651:

I am playing warrior, guardian, ele and thief in wvw.
I don’t see a problem with retaliation at all, I got self heals, got blasts from waters, got positioning, and I press button to attack, it’s not on autoattack.

Never have I seen problem with retaliation in any part of a game

Congratulations, you have avoided the classes that suffer most from retaliation whilst playing two that can completely ignore it (guard and warrior in zerg), one that can eat it (switch to water, healed, thanks) and one huge spike hitter (retal, what’s that?).

Retal affects the other classes, which is another reason why you see so few of them in wvw.

Once per second would seem an easy solution, which doesn’t nerf the skill into the ground whilst curing the current issue.

As to any argument that ‘but you hit multiple players with your skill, blah blah’ so do all the water fields you are running through, etc , but they don’t cause you auto damage of 300-400.

Sadly the devs don’t base anything on wvw, so there is no chance of any change, as retal isn’t really an issue in pve or pvp.

SilverWF.4789:

Tao.5096:

I pop flamethrower and want to 30k burn anyone in a sec.
Oh wait, I’m downed….
Retaliation?!
NERF !@^%#%$

30k burn? Are we playing in the same game? 5k per 2 sec channel – that’s a real numbers. And this numbers pretty usual for another classes, but they do not have Retal problems only because they have less numbers of hits.

Probably the same guy is hitting 100k damage total on hundred blades (i.e. thinking the numbers that pop are individual damage readings instead the total).

Why are you comparing slow type close combat weapon attacks to GTAoE fast attacks?

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

Hi there!
How about to make a limit for retaliation? Let it can hit the same target only once per second?
Or let it will be affected by Toughness and Armor
Or let it will scales up from Condition damage (since it ignoring armor, like any another conditions), but not from Power.

Because it really sucks while playing with multi-hit-per-second classes, for example Flamethrower/Grenade Engineer. You are able to literally kill yourself in 2-3 seconds only using your own offensive skills and even not being hit by enemies!

Since you think I don’t know what the op even is, here’s your sign.

Don’t use grenade and flamethrower when you know you’re just going to kill yourself. Get smarter than that. Coordinate. Get some people set up to strip boons and have them synchronize use of them just a bit. Time your burst to right after the strippers (formal title) rip the prot and retal stacks down.

In the meantime, get some thieves and rangers coordinating into guardian kill squads. Kill all guardians. Kill all mesmers too. But guardians especially.

It sounds more complicated than it is. And it works pretty well.

Just follow a tag and do whatever when blobs collide and, honestly, what were you expecting to eventually happen?

You should be rewarded for being smart, not have the matter dumbed down so you don’t have to try anymore.

I don’t need advices from someone, who playing thief in small scaled fights only and can bring advices to this mode, even if noone asked this.

SilverWF.4789:

Guardian Hammer #2 – it deals HUGE amount of damage with only 4 sec CD and only 5 Retaliation procs.
Engineer Grenade: 3 grenades per 5 targets each. 15 retal hitbacks every throw or 30 per second.
Fair? Sure not.

Actually hammer 2# doing 1.3k dmg and 3kdmg crit in normal conditions. That is not huge. Huge is when thief doing 5k heartseakers and 7k backstabs thats huge dmg.

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

Hi there!
How about to make a limit for retaliation? Let it can hit the same target only once per second?
Or let it will be affected by Toughness and Armor
Or let it will scales up from Condition damage (since it ignoring armor, like any another conditions), but not from Power.

Because it really sucks while playing with multi-hit-per-second classes, for example Flamethrower/Grenade Engineer. You are able to literally kill yourself in 2-3 seconds only using your own offensive skills and even not being hit by enemies!

. Get some people set up to strip boons and have them synchronize use of them just a bit. Time your burst to right after the strippers (formal title) rip the prot and retal stacks down.

In the meantime, get some thieves and rangers coordinating into guardian kill squads. Kill all guardians. Kill all mesmers too. But guardians especially.

, not have the matter dumbed down so you don’t have to try anymore.

Good luck stripping all those boons- we’ve tried to strip boons off a zerg and until there are no players left standing it’s almost impossible. By the time you have stripped off retal the fight is over, in the meantime you did nothing? what tends to happen in even fights is the strippers/converters balance each other out and the net effect is 4-5 boons up along with 2-3 usually minor conditions. Boon stripping and conversion can’t keep up with boon generation (unless your playing mindless zombies).

Targeting guards with your thiefs and rangers? Attacking the heaviest class while their necros and eles have a free go at healing them? Throwing a thief in to the path of the melee train? Sounds great, thanks for the bags when you try it. Wall of reflection anyone? There’s a reason thiefs and rangers are tasked with killing eles and necros..

As for dumbing down, retal is the ultimate dumbed down boon, it is takes no skill to get, keep, and automatically targets any damager and does huge damage to lower armor classes without you having to do any targetting at all.

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

Hi there!
How about to make a limit for retaliation? Let it can hit the same target only once per second?
Or let it will be affected by Toughness and Armor
Or let it will scales up from Condition damage (since it ignoring armor, like any another conditions), but not from Power.

Because it really sucks while playing with multi-hit-per-second classes, for example Flamethrower/Grenade Engineer. You are able to literally kill yourself in 2-3 seconds only using your own offensive skills and even not being hit by enemies!

Since you think I don’t know what the op even is, here’s your sign.

Don’t use grenade and flamethrower when you know you’re just going to kill yourself. Get smarter than that. Coordinate. Get some people set up to strip boons and have them synchronize use of them just a bit. Time your burst to right after the strippers (formal title) rip the prot and retal stacks down.

In the meantime, get some thieves and rangers coordinating into guardian kill squads. Kill all guardians. Kill all mesmers too. But guardians especially.

It sounds more complicated than it is. And it works pretty well.

Just follow a tag and do whatever when blobs collide and, honestly, what were you expecting to eventually happen?

You should be rewarded for being smart, not have the matter dumbed down so you don’t have to try anymore.

I don’t need advices from someone, who playing thief in small scaled fights only and can bring advices to this mode, even if noone asked this.

We don’t have retal problems though, mate. And there’s nothing small scale about charging around with fifty or sixty of of one’s guild, as well as all the stragglers that ride with the tornado.

It really doesn’t seem like you’ve got any problems that some coordination and timing wouldn’t fix. That’s my point here.

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

Hi there!
How about to make a limit for retaliation? Let it can hit the same target only once per second?
Or let it will be affected by Toughness and Armor
Or let it will scales up from Condition damage (since it ignoring armor, like any another conditions), but not from Power.

Because it really sucks while playing with multi-hit-per-second classes, for example Flamethrower/Grenade Engineer. You are able to literally kill yourself in 2-3 seconds only using your own offensive skills and even not being hit by enemies!

Since you think I don’t know what the op even is, here’s your sign.

Don’t use grenade and flamethrower when you know you’re just going to kill yourself. Get smarter than that. Coordinate. Get some people set up to strip boons and have them synchronize use of them just a bit. Time your burst to right after the strippers (formal title) rip the prot and retal stacks down.

In the meantime, get some thieves and rangers coordinating into guardian kill squads. Kill all guardians. Kill all mesmers too. But guardians especially.

It sounds more complicated than it is. And it works pretty well.

Just follow a tag and do whatever when blobs collide and, honestly, what were you expecting to eventually happen?

You should be rewarded for being smart, not have the matter dumbed down so you don’t have to try anymore.

I don’t need advices from someone, who playing thief in small scaled fights only and can bring advices to this mode, even if noone asked this.

We don’t have retal problems though, mate. And there’s nothing small scale about charging around with fifty or sixty of of one’s guild, as well as all the stragglers that ride with the tornado.

It really doesn’t seem like you’ve got any problems that some coordination and timing wouldn’t fix. That’s my point here.

Basically, you are didn’t have a Retal problems, because you are “very useful” side_wounded_enemies_finisher_thief. kkhxbye.

I think I need to repeat this post to stop this “smart” advices about boon stripping.

SilverWF.4789:

also, some genius with obvious advices about “strip boos” maybe will be interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmePzrl-jAs

Dunno who is this, just found it yesterday occasionally.
Just check how long time he have buffs (and Retaliation sure) and how long he have conditions. Also check this at his targets, when he have target selected – most of time he didn’t.
I’ve found, what there is 100% uptime of main buffs and ~70% of Retaliation. And something like 15% of conditions uptime.

Any design in game that punished action unequally is a bad design. No matter if it’s retal, confusion, or even torment to some extent. IF they are going to have it in game then it should be toned way down.

SilverWF.4789:

I think I need to repeat this post to stop this “smart” advices about boon stripping.

SilverWF.4789:

also, some genius with obvious advices about “strip boos” maybe will be interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmePzrl-jAs

Dunno who is this, just found it yesterday occasionally.
Just check how long time he have buffs (and Retaliation sure) and how long he have conditions. Also check this at his targets, when he have target selected – most of time he didn’t.
I’ve found, what there is 100% uptime of main buffs and ~70% of Retaliation. And something like 15% of conditions uptime.

Nice link. So why does my wvw guild basically win because we feel like going or there and doing so?

Ever stop to think that maybe you’re just plain doing it wrong?

This whole thread reeks of a certain ‘there is only one right way’ groupthink though.

So, hey, have fun with that. When Anet goes right on not nerfing retal because it isn’t actually broken, you can have done exactly nothing to adapt and try.

I’ll see ya in wvw, mate. Might bring out my boon guard and tome of wrath just for you.

I don’t see a problem with reataliation. The ‘problem’ is the property of the skills used. Most players who complain use engineers with grenades and flamethrowers as an example to justify the need to change retaliation. One problem is that these skills reap the advantages of proc trait, sigils,… but gain the disadvantages of retaliation as it should be. By modifying retaliation you shift the balance in an unfair way.

The second problem is grenades and flamethrowers are the most extreme cases (mass multi-proc auto attacks). Changing retaliation for those skills would make retaliation useless.

So in short instead of changing retaliation change the problem skills.