Guild Wars 2

Blueskylightdragon.4876:

They should add special effect in PvE, like increase aggro rate,increase defense when receive retaliation and enemy attack speed increase nearby player that got retaliation so that it will be more damaging for enemies in PvE. Should only increase in defense and no attack speed boost for bosses however.

How it’s relevant here? Not_a_troll, go away

Okay,
let’s summarize it.

CAUTION!
It is lethal to use Grenade Kit and Flamethrower Kit on enemies with Retaliation.
Please choose different utility skills.
ArenaNet hold no responsibility for your wipe due to Retaliation.

lol’d @this thread. Especially that OP is an engineer complaining about something.

Tao.5096:

Okay,
let’s summarize it.

CAUTION!
It is lethal to use Grenade Kit and Flamethrower Kit on enemies with Retaliation.
Please choose different utility skills.
ArenaNet hold no responsibility for your wipe due to Retaliation.

And you (and others in this thread) can’t even see what is wrong with such a common boon disabling entire builds (since you’ve got to spec quite heavily to make those kits even decent).
Especially since those kits are balanced to be used versus multiple enemies…and that just increases the chances people will have retaliation up.

It makes no sense, and yet people just choose to ignore it.

Nerf guardians buff Engineers nau I said nauuuu. Nerf all nauuuuu.

I don’t get how you guys are having problems with retal…
When I had my nade engy, I’d always make sure to find an advantageous position to drop healing turret. That allowed me to deal with retal and easily drop nades on a zerg. If I used any other healing skills, I’d just have to be smart and know when to stop spamming.

If you know the mechanics and attempt to go against them anyways, aren’t you just being stubborn?

However if you want to make a stronger case, talk about chaos armor and the nerf that it went through. Also, GS mesmer and DS necro too.

Manuhell.2759:

Tao.5096:

Okay,
let’s summarize it.

CAUTION!
It is lethal to use Grenade Kit and Flamethrower Kit on enemies with Retaliation.
Please choose different utility skills.
ArenaNet hold no responsibility for your wipe due to Retaliation.

And you (and others in this thread) can’t even see what is wrong with such a common boon disabling entire builds (since you’ve got to spec quite heavily to make those kits even decent).
Especially since those kits are balanced to be used versus multiple enemies…and that just increases the chances people will have retaliation up.

It makes no sense, and yet people just choose to ignore it.

So hey, you must have some pretty strong feelings about condi necros being the unwanted baggage of dungeons and the pointless spacewasters of world bosses.

If we wanna come up with a list of things to cry about, man, we could fuel rivers.

Rivers.

But lets not go there.

Manuhell.2759:

And you (and others in this thread) can’t even see what is wrong with such a common boon disabling entire builds (since you’ve got to spec quite heavily to make those kits even decent).
Especially since those kits are balanced to be used versus multiple enemies…and that just increases the chances people will have retaliation up.

It makes no sense, and yet people just choose to ignore it.

Oooh, yes. True Story.

Let’s summarize OP’s PoV and what does he want to do.
1. OP is blaming Retaliation for Engineer’s damage comeback due to mechanic of Grenade Kit and Flamethrower Kit.
How those Kits work is being explained in this thread by Tim for example.
2. OP request to change the way Retaliation work by enforcing a percentage portion(5% or 10%) of spiked damage to be returned to caster.
Power Build User:
2000 damage hit and 5% damage going to return back
2000 – 5% = 100
100 Damage is going to be returned
Condition Build User:
120 damage hit and 5% damage going to return back
120 – 5% = 6
6 Damage is going to be returned
Summary:

• Percentage damage scaling for Retaliation is crap

What does OP doesn’t want to consider?

• OP doesn’t want to consider rework of Grenade and Flamethrower Kits.
  Because those Kits are extremely useful and work greatly as long as Retaliation isn’t involved. :v

What does OP keep comparing whole this kitten to?
To Greatsword Warrior and Staff Guardian.
OP doesn’t want to understand that those two weapons are slow, and Engineer or any Fast type weapon deal at least 2 times more attacks than those two.
Pluses of Fast Type weapons

• 2 times higher chance for sigil proc
• 2 times higher chance for crit proc
• higher mobility
• lower chance for enemy to evade attacks
  Minuses of Fast Type Weapons
• punished for mindless spam on Retaliation

What OP does fail in too?
OP claims that Boon removal is crap, and killing main source of Retaliation spam a.k.a Guardian isn’t a priority.

P.S. – I’m starting to like 2015 more and more.

Tao.5096:

Oooh, yes. True Story.

Let’s summarize OP’s PoV and what does he want to do.
1. OP is blaming Retaliation for Engineer’s damage comeback due to mechanic of Grenade Kit and Flamethrower Kit.
How those Kits work is being explained in this thread by Tim for example.
2. OP request to change the way Retaliation work by enforcing a percentage portion(5% or 10%) of spiked damage to be returned to caster.
Power Build User:
2000 damage hit and 5% damage going to return back
2000 – 5% = 100
100 Damage is going to be returned
Condition Build User:
120 damage hit and 5% damage going to return back
120 – 5% = 6
6 Damage is going to be returned
Summary:

• Percentage damage scaling for Retaliation is crap

It just means other methods should be chosen instead. For example reflecting also a percentage of the inflicted condition damage, assuming it is technically doable.
It would still make more sense than the current situation, where retaliation alone can inflict more damage than the hits that processed it.

Tao.5096:

What does OP doesn’t want to consider?

• OP doesn’t want to consider rework of Grenade and Flamethrower Kits.
  Because those Kits are extremely useful and work greatly as long as Retaliation isn’t involved. :v

More like because retaliation doesn’t make sense when multi-hit/low-damage attacks are involved, and almost any offensive skill of those kits is of such type (even Napalm got recently changed into one of those). They should change completely the design of those weapons and associated traits, and that would just be a band-aid – unless they plan on never having such type of skills again (quite a waste, especially since we may see new weapons in the future, as hinted by HoT)

Tao.5096:

What does OP keep comparing whole this kitten to?
To Greatsword Warrior and Staff Guardian.
OP doesn’t want to understand that those two weapons are slow, and Engineer or any Fast type weapon deal at least 2 times more attacks than those two.
Pluses of Fast Type weapons

• 2 times higher chance for sigil proc
• 2 times higher chance for crit proc
• higher mobility
• lower chance for enemy to evade attacks

Unlike retaliation, most of those crit or sigil proc have cooldowns. And traits that haven’t got them are already balanced over such lack of cooldowns. Those pluses are already mostly nullified by those balancing countermeasures (heh, food didn’t have cooldowns back then – they added them later for that purpose).
Imho, the mobility is more due of them being a cone-attack weapon and a ranged aoe one than due of their multi-hit capabilities.
And while it is true that it is more difficult to evade such attacks, it is also more difficult to deal the whole of them – it gives times for people to move out (in the case of flame jet or long-range grenades).

Tao.5096:

Minuses of Fast Type Weapons

• punished for mindless spam on Retaliation

More than “mindless spam”, you should talk about “doing anything”. As i said above, almost all the offensive skills in those kit are multi-hit ones. So, what should i do, avoid using those kits when someone uses retaliation? That is, everytime, seeing as it is so common.
It isn’t like other autoattacks or putting retaliation require so much thought, anyway…

Tao.5096:

What OP does fail in too?
OP claims that Boon removal is crap, and killing main source of Retaliation spam a.k.a Guardian isn’t a priority.

And i agree. Since putting retaliation is far too easy in comparison, especially in group situations…that is, when those kits are supposed to be used. Assuming you even have boon removals to start with (not that it changes anything, since it can just be easily applied again after that).

Also, how do you kill the “main source of Retaliation spam” if you can’t attack due of retaliation being on? Quite a bit of circular logic there.
If you’re using such kits, you’re likely to have heavily traited them – grenades are unusable otherwise, and even the flamethrower wouldn’t make much sense as something to rely on if untraited.
It means that outside those, you’re quite weak (and main weapons are supposed to be weak by design due to kits anyway, so that doesn’t help).
So, as i said above, that single boon is enough to disable those kits and build based upon them. And people here think that such a thing is fine…

Manuhell.2759:

Also, how do you kill the “main source of Retaliation spam” if you can’t attack due of retaliation being on? Quite a bit of circular logic there.
If you’re using such kits, you’re likely to have heavily traited them – grenades are unusable otherwise, and even the flamethrower wouldn’t make much sense as something to rely on if untraited.
It means that outside those, you’re quite weak (and main weapons are supposed to be weak by design due to kits anyway, so that doesn’t help).
So, as i said above, that single boon is enough to disable those kits and build based upon them. And people here think that such a thing is fine…

So, are we either talking about zerg of Engineers vs zerg of all classes?
How hard it would be for others, such as warriors, rangers, mesmers etc to focus single target?
Can’t Necromancer strip Guardian from boons? Especially those most annoying a.k.a. Stability and Protection Boons?

But hey, what’s the point of making a tactic in zerg vs zerg, when spamming skills in random areas should be as much effective.

It’s surprising you know. That here we have just a few people who play Engineer and complain about Retaliation, and somehow the rest is just fine, because somehow they contribute, survive and have fun.

Unless, OP’s team doesn’t use Retaliation or enemy team doesn’t have Engineers

Yes, YES, more WvW explanations from sPvP_only_Necromancer!

SilverWF.4789:

Yes, YES, more WvW explanations from sPvP_only_Necromancer!

Tao is not an sPvP only Necro. I know him in game. He plays on Desolation and plays WvW. Also he’s not American. You continue to shoot yourself in the foot with you anger at other people. Chill out and back away from the keyboard dude.

AdaephonDelat.3890:

SilverWF.4789:

Yes, YES, more WvW explanations from sPvP_only_Necromancer!

Tao is not an sPvP only Necro. I know him in game. He plays on Desolation and plays WvW. Also he’s not American. You continue to shoot yourself in the foot with you anger at other people. Chill out and back away from the keyboard dude.

Chill out and back away from the keyboard PvE-dude

SilverWF.4789:

AdaephonDelat.3890:

SilverWF.4789:

Yes, YES, more WvW explanations from sPvP_only_Necromancer!

Tao is not an sPvP only Necro. I know him in game. He plays on Desolation and plays WvW. Also he’s not American. You continue to shoot yourself in the foot with you anger at other people. Chill out and back away from the keyboard dude.

Chill out and back away from the keyboard PvE-dude

Thanks but I also play WvW. You’re doing so well in this thread.

SilverWF.4789:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

The reason why no -ge would be if you’d do base damage, say 100/grenade and you get 5 retal you’d be "punished " with 5 dmg *15 targets is 75 damage. while you’d still do full condi dmg in vulnerability/bleeding/poison and chill, hiding a LOT of hidden dmg behind a very thin illusion.

OP. Again.

Not. Try to find zerg fights by yourself and check conditions.

Doubt I will find much. Then again in roaming parties of about 5 people conditions tend to be encountered frequently. Same for small scale guild raids (~10 ppl)

Maybe after that you’ll see WHY condi specs are NOT viable here even now – even for Necros meta is Power specs.

Well I tend to be on PU mesmer, condithief, condimancer, condi trapper a lot, mostly when roaming. They tend to function quite well. I tend to get joined by the occasional condi/hybrid engineer

Not because of Retaliation, yeah.

No it has to do with condition clears.

If you’ll failed to understand it by yourself, ask some experienced players about that.

Thank you for your trust in my abilities.

Just a remark. Retaliation isn’t only available in WVW zergs. The fact you are narrowing fields makes this very interesting as it shows the base where on you found your opinion is (very) circumstantial at best.

Regarding retaliation. It has a function. I described it as a countermeasure vs AOE bombing. The fact if you bomb with DPS or DOT doesn’t matter. It will make sure you are reminded there is someone who isn’t happy you are doing this.

The fact you say condition have nothing to do with it and conditions are all worthless, shows you are not looking at the bigger picture. This game is bigger then grenade/flamethrower wvw engineer only.

Retaliation is used in WvW, PvE and Dungeons (and of course PvP) it is a mechanic which can be used by friend and foe. As it is a boon, it can be stripped or turned or converted. On both sides, It can be used as well by an engineer himself. Nerfing your own boons seems illogical.

It wil return damage when attacked, generally scaling from power. it wil be about 400 fixed/ per hit on a target with retaliation

Retaliation works perfectly in deteriorating AOE attacks: except for 2 mentioned instances being:
Grenade kit and Flamethrower kit by engineers. Both weapons are partially condition based which isn’t mentioned, Damage is AoE non LOS and plagued by the number of attacks the perform. Fact is stated grenades do 15 procs if enough targets, doing 6000 retaliation per throw, every second. Original Poster finds the damage vs the realiation not worth it, but refuses to change opinion about build, views, about anything. There needs to be mentioned the full grenade throw needs to land on 5-15 characters with active retaliation & power builds in the first place
Grenades tend to hit twice or 3 times per throw, with the exception of the toolbelt skill which does 6 or 7. all there hits will cause vulnerability, enhancing damage.
Flamethrower tends to hit 5 times a second doing considerable damage and proccing fire. It hits 5 people maximum and duration is 2 seconds, proccing 50 times if all targets are under retaliation. 50*400 =20k dmg. if everybody has a powerbuild.

The fact grenades cause other effects is ignored as poster refuses to expand his FOV.
The fact All AOE’s are affected by retaliationis ignored as poster refuses to expand his FOV.
The fact a lots of different options have been posted tends to matter nothing.
The fact most examples are non-comparable tends to matter nothing.
The first option presented by poster would require 5 classes rebalanced…
The alternative given is even more OP then the previous example, allowing condition builds to spam condition fields with only a few points worth of damage to themselves when attacking retaliation carriers, rendering retal useless.
Leaving the present option (retaliation as it is now) and a rework of grenadier kits the best solution.

As some frustration seems to mount some people tend to forget to stay nice and constructive. Please try to stay a gentleman (m/f) in this discussion.

How is a thread that based purely around a L2P issue still going strong? Can’t we just let bad ideas die off through lack of interest?

No problem for me. As long as the community understands this ISN’T a porblem of retaliation, but the 2 referred to skills of the engineer, which should be reconsidered and/or improved.

I was just thinking to myself why this wasn’t posted in the WvW forums. It occurred to me that the OP would be either picked apart or simply ignored…

Tao.5096:

So, are we either talking about zerg of Engineers vs zerg of all classes?
How hard it would be for others, such as warriors, rangers, mesmers etc to focus single target?

And why should they even bother? they aren’t even as effected by retaliation.
Heh, it is far more easy for them to just avoid taking engineers.

Tao.5096:

Can’t Necromancer strip Guardian from boons? Especially those most annoying a.k.a. Stability and Protection Boons?

Indeed, if only retaliation was as uncommon at those. Unfortunately, it is far more spammable. And in a couple seconds it will be up again.
Basically, stripping ends up being useless, especially since you’ll never have such frequency of doing that compared to how much retaliation can be spammed.

Tao.5096:

But hey, what’s the point of making a tactic in zerg vs zerg, when spamming skills in random areas should be as much effective.

Yep. Why bother fighting, when you can just spam retaliation and make the enemy kill itself. It is indeed effective.

Tao.5096:

It’s surprising you know. That here we have just a few people who play Engineer and complain about Retaliation, and somehow the rest is just fine, because somehow they contribute, survive and have fun.

Unless, OP’s team doesn’t use Retaliation or enemy team doesn’t have Engineers

I’m thinking more about the second suggestion. Outside of PvP engineers aren’t popular at all. And i’m not particularly surprised about that. Weapons get nullified by common boons, and people find that normal and right just because it isn’t something that bothers them.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

No problem for me. As long as the community understands this ISN’T a porblem of retaliation, but the 2 referred to skills of the engineer, which should be reconsidered and/or improved.

And it wouldn’t solve anything. It would just skip over the issue.
The problem isn’t upon those weapons. Rather, it is upon how retaliation works versus skills that do multiple weak hits – being AoE just exacerbates the problem.
If HoT will introduce new weapons or classes with weapons that work like that, we’ll be discussing the issue all over again.
Unless they choose to never have multi-weak-hit skills again…effectively limiting their design choices due to such a boon.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

As long as the community understands this ISN’T a porblem of retaliation,

Yeah, you said just a part of truth, as all Western media.
Isn’t it because there is very few Engineers playing WvW and NOT just for roaming?
And most of WvW blobbers are warriors, guardians and necros (with a minor addition in Elems) and they are pretty fine with retaliation even if they are the same(!) mindlessly spamming #1 of current weapon, dealing the same or more damage, but much more rare hits/sec?

I’ve explained personally to you 2 or 3 times why you, your examples and your experience are failing there, but you are continue pop it with genius face ><
And you are wondering I’m not trust in your abilities to understand something by yourself? Really?

I still stay at the same point:
Retaliation must return % of incoming damage. No any another changes needed then.
Only this system will bring the same conditions for every class/spec.

from the wiki :

Notes
————————————————————————————————————————-
In PvP and WvW, retaliation damage is reduced by 33%.

picks up popcorn and leans back again

There are 2 teams.
1st Team is SilverWF Team.

• they have Retaliation
• they have Protection
• they have Guardian
  2nd Team is Enemy Team
• they have Retaliation
• they have Protection
• they have Guardian
• they have Engineer

Outcome:
Enemy Team wins with their Engineer being alive.

Why?