Guild Wars 2

Also, they can change some skills, i.e. Flame Jet brings Retaliation only for 1st hit.
There is a tons of methods to fix this.
But the current situation is unbearable!

Well, I gotta agree with naiasonod.
If majority of groups with engineers win, despite enemy team having perma retaliation, then why should it be nerfed/changed/adjusted to your specific group, because you wipe on it?
It proves that there is a countermeasure and either you don’t know what it is, or simply don’t want to use it.

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

I think I need to repeat this post to stop this “smart” advices about boon stripping.

SilverWF.4789:

also, some genius with obvious advices about “strip boos” maybe will be interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmePzrl-jAs

Dunno who is this, just found it yesterday occasionally.
Just check how long time he have buffs (and Retaliation sure) and how long he have conditions. Also check this at his targets, when he have target selected – most of time he didn’t.
I’ve found, what there is 100% uptime of main buffs and ~70% of Retaliation. And something like 15% of conditions uptime.

Nice link. So why does my wvw guild basically win because we feel like going or there and doing so?

Ever stop to think that maybe you’re just plain doing it wrong?

This whole thread reeks of a certain ‘there is only one right way’ groupthink though.

So, hey, have fun with that. When Anet goes right on not nerfing retal because it isn’t actually broken, you can have done exactly nothing to adapt and try.

I’ll see ya in wvw, mate. Might bring out my boon guard and tome of wrath just for you.

Take your engi into WvW and it should be clear that alteast there is something strange about grenades and retal

Where do you WvW btw, perhaps we already met

Tim.6450:

I don’t see a problem with reataliation. The ‘problem’ is the property of the skills used. Most players who complain use engineers with grenades and flamethrowers as an example to justify the need to change retaliation. One problem is that these skills reap the advantages of proc trait, sigils,… but gain the disadvantages of retaliation as it should be. By modifying retaliation you shift the balance in an unfair way.

The second problem is grenades and flamethrowers are the most extreme cases (mass multi-proc auto attacks). Changing retaliation for those skills would make retaliation useless.

So in short instead of changing retaliation change the problem skills.

^

That, I agree with. Kudos.

My issue with retaliation is that with its current design, true projectiles will proc it, but can also be reflected (and profession with retaliation often have access to reflection as well). I think that if it can be reflected then retaliation shouldn’t proc.

On the note of boon striping good luck on that the rate of application of boons far exceeds the rate of removal with (even if a profession as access to anything beyond the sigils).

Tim.6450:

I don’t see a problem with reataliation. The ‘problem’ is the property of the skills used. Most players who complain use engineers with grenades and flamethrowers as an example to justify the need to change retaliation. One problem is that these skills reap the advantages of proc trait, sigils,… but gain the disadvantages of retaliation as it should be. By modifying retaliation you shift the balance in an unfair way.

The second problem is grenades and flamethrowers are the most extreme cases (mass multi-proc auto attacks). Changing retaliation for those skills would make retaliation useless.

So in short instead of changing retaliation change the problem skills.

Sigils have internal CDs, Retal procs do not…

Tao.5096:

Well, I gotta agree with naiasonod.
If majority of groups with engineers win, despite enemy team having perma retaliation, then why should it be nerfed/changed/adjusted to your specific group, because you wipe on it?
It proves that there is a countermeasure and either you don’t know what it is, or simply don’t want to use it.

There is NO “majority” groups with Engis, Engineers by itself – rare class. And sure, we need “contrmeasure” against non-exist Engineers groups, but must not have it againts huge number of mindlessly #1 spammers guardians/warriors groups.

Stop trashtalking here please, how many times I need to repeat this?
We do not ask for advices (I can give a tons of it by myself), we don’t need your roaming experience, we don’t need your fairytales about overpowered Engineers DPS, we don’t need your dreams about “check every enemy and strip 10 boons at once”, we don’t need your fantasies about “coordination and sniping some classes”. All of this MUST be count as trolling.
But I wonder, that you can troll someone freely here, but have no rights to call someone as troll. “Democracy” double standards.

aspirine.6852:

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

I think I need to repeat this post to stop this “smart” advices about boon stripping.

SilverWF.4789:

also, some genius with obvious advices about “strip boos” maybe will be interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmePzrl-jAs

Dunno who is this, just found it yesterday occasionally.
Just check how long time he have buffs (and Retaliation sure) and how long he have conditions. Also check this at his targets, when he have target selected – most of time he didn’t.
I’ve found, what there is 100% uptime of main buffs and ~70% of Retaliation. And something like 15% of conditions uptime.

Nice link. So why does my wvw guild basically win because we feel like going or there and doing so?

Ever stop to think that maybe you’re just plain doing it wrong?

This whole thread reeks of a certain ‘there is only one right way’ groupthink though.

So, hey, have fun with that. When Anet goes right on not nerfing retal because it isn’t actually broken, you can have done exactly nothing to adapt and try.

I’ll see ya in wvw, mate. Might bring out my boon guard and tome of wrath just for you.

Take your engi into WvW and it should be clear that alteast there is something strange about grenades and retal

Where do you WvW btw, perhaps we already met

I won’t say there’s no danger to engineers because of retaliation, or that for how some of their favorite aoe works that they’re not vulnerable to retal accordingly.

Not at all. But is that … Incorrect?

I dunno. I won’t lie – I don’t think it is, but neither do I know.

What I do know is that on Tarnished Coast, we don’t have a lot of big wvw guilds, but we do have some decent ones. [YUM] and [CERN] are two of my favorites, and CERN is pretty beast when it comes to coordination.

They don’t have retal problems. Engi isn’t my class, but if it has some powers that need looking at for his they’re affected by retal, that’d be a thing to ask for.

Nerf retal? No. It isn’t broken in any way I can identify or even heard about.

Cheap disco glitter, man. Fo’ realz. The real problem seems to me to be not dealing with it as one can. And it can be dealt with.

TC forevarrrrrrr! tumbles off cliff, dies due to misadventure

I won’t "remove Retaliaton", I say "make it the same for every class".
Period.

SilverWF.4789:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

No I want it to remain what it is: -UNLIMITED-, it’s a deterrent. And you can say Oh my engi is so squishy, but I meant to say ALL other classes have a similar problem, retaliation is a Anti Spiking Tool. And you use grenades to spike. Why can’t this be understood?

Tha Age of Armageddon! Remember. hen you will be bombed by eles, and the wellmancers destroy you in wvw

Not all classes have this problem. You didn’t know that, because you didn’t test all classes, as I’m.
Basically, all classes do the same dynamic AOE damage (not static AOE-fields, like in your example with Meteor Shower – only dumbs will stay in this).
Let’s compare Guardian Staff #1 (every blob uses it in 80% cases) and Engineer FT #1
For 2 seconds Guardian will able do 2 or 3 casts. Per 5 targets. 10-15 hitsback with retal.
Engi will hit 3 targets (this restriction by itself just LOL, also as lower range and cone angle – just LOL) with 5 _ hits per second, so this will be 30 hitsback with Retal.
They both will do same amount of damage, but Engi will be punished 3 times harder. Fair? Sure not.
Guardian Hammer #2 – it deals HUGE amount of damage with only 4 sec CD and only 5 Retaliation procs.
Engineer Grenade: 3 grenades per 5 targets each. 15 retal hitbacks every throw or 30 per second.
Fair? Sure not.

But with my main suggestion here it all will be more sustain for every class. Huge amount but rare hit classes wouldn’t noticed any changes.
But this will be more love for Engis.
Why?
Because 1 per second for same target from same target will be a huge change.
Flamethrower #1 will hits you only 6 times per 2 second channel instead of 30. And only if you hit the same targets every time. If targets will be different every time, so it will be 30 hits with retal again, but this is impossible, also as the same targets all the time. So it will be 10-15 hits, as everyone have now.

Or, they can change Omnomberry food again. Leech basically has a 2 parts: damage and heal. And this parts already separated and independent from each other. So let the damage part will have the current limit (1/sec) but the heal part will be unlimited, as it was before.

I do not NEED more sustain, I know enemies will use retaliation, and anticipate, I use well of suffering first with necro, just because of this.
And when on ele You WILL get full hits when you attack zergs. And while you will not get the 100000 damage, but IF they use retal you will go down. = Anti spike…

And staff #1 from guard hits 5 people, You hit 15 with corresponding conditions do not forget that. You can say retaliation is op , but please also reverse it. You have IMHO one of the easiest weaponsets available , with a very short cooldown, providing massive AOE.

Making it completely unpunishable would also instantly require a drastic engineer grenade NERF, as enigineers are already OP as shown in PvP. You are just trying to make enigineer MORE OP. And NERF 5 other classes.

I fully disagree with your motivation engineer is the only victim, and I want to know how people are going to defend against AOEs? Especially unblockable marks, unblockable traps and BIG AOE fields?

And I tried to explain other AOE fields with pulses will also get a lot of retaliation damage. You seem to fail to see having your 5 skills hitting 75 targets in seconds can cause problems, to yourself. Also IMHO when I hear I shouldn’t cry about people staying in my MS why do you focus so much about all those people in YOUR field of fire, as they should be moving off as well?

I think you are aware how dangerous Flamthrowers are when fighting them with melee weapons. and while trying to melee retaliation is needed else you will fail… which would cause flamthrower to be nerfed as well as conseqence…

In the end: recapping: Your grenades are High Risk High Reward, as are my meteor showers or 8 stacked Wells& Marks. And I would very much dislike it to see retaliation removed as it would make all AOE skills something different: It would make AoE’s overpowered and thus ready to be NERFED. And I’ll prefer damage hitting 24*3 people with risk, instead of 6*3 falling rocks with no damage after a nerf.

Everything needs a counter in a game else it will be overpowered,
and anything that will be OP will be nerfed.

SilverWF.4789:

Tao.5096:

Well, I gotta agree with naiasonod.
If majority of groups with engineers win, despite enemy team having perma retaliation, then why should it be nerfed/changed/adjusted to your specific group, because you wipe on it?
It proves that there is a countermeasure and either you don’t know what it is, or simply don’t want to use it.

There is NO “majority” groups with Engis, Engineers by itself – rare class. And sure, we need “contrmeasure” against non-exist Engineers groups, but must not have it againts huge number of mindlessly #1 spammers guardians/warriors groups.

Stop trashtalking here please, how many times I need to repeat this?
We do not ask for advices (I can give a tons of it by myself), we don’t need your roaming experience, we don’t need your fairytales about overpowered Engineers DPS, we don’t need your dreams about “check every enemy and strip 10 boons at once”, we don’t need your fantasies about “coordination and sniping some classes”. All of this MUST be count as trolling.
But I wonder, that you can troll someone freely here, but have no rights to call someone as troll. “Democracy” double standards.

What the heck dude?

These forums aren’t a democracy. What are you even going on about there? Never mind.

The point is still simple – you gotta learn to adapt to it. If grenade and flamethrower are getting you dead, do something else. Do other useful things. Heck, tell funny jokes in voice.

It’s all good, yeah? I mean, come on mate, I have two necromancers and necros can’t even sneak into a decent dungeon run.

I keep threatening to deck a necro out if full nomads and run around in a pink robe, but nobody cares. Or believes I’d actually buy or craft anything nomads. They’re right to disregard me.

Necro will never be good for that stuff though. Engineers will probably always have to be very wary of when they drop their nuclear devastation.

Guardians will probably always be momma’s boys.

Just how it is, ya? Can you feel what I’m saying?

Pax, I have no problem with retal and for instance meteor showering zergs. In fact I have less retal damage from the whole meteor channel than one single skill one with my grenade kit.
And this grenade 1 does what, around 1500 damage in total compared to the meteor showers 50k damage?
I agree we cant make something like throw grenades too powerfull, we cant have engi’s shine all of a sudden in WvW group play now cant we

Novuake.2691:

Sigils have internal CDs, Retal procs do not…

Yes you’re right they have an icd , but since you do more hits/second you will be closer to the icd then with a non muti-proc weapon since you have more chance to proc that sigil which is most of the time based on crit and it has it’s own personal chance modifier. Example a necromancer scepter auto attack chain will on average proc a sigil of strength with 66% crit chance every 3 seconds while grenades with the same crit chance will proc them on average every second.

Edit: also sigils were added as an afterthought, i was more refering to traits like sharpshooter and steel-packed powder.

Tim.6450:

Novuake.2691:

Sigils have internal CDs, Retal procs do not…

Yes you’re right they have an icd , but since you do more hits/second you will be closer to the icd then with a non muti-proc weapon since you have more chance to proc that sigil which is most of the time based on crit and it has it’s own personal chance modifier. Example a necromancer scepter auto attack chain will on average proc a sigil of strength with 66% crit chance every 3 seconds while grenades with the same crit chance will proc them on average every second.

A bit of odd maths, but your reasoning is sound.

However, Might vs Damage procs are not comparable.
There are VERY few sigils with 1 sec internal CDs, you just used the most extreme case that as mentioned is not comparable at all in effect.
Self kill in one volley vs a damage buff sigil.

The point is that Retal procs have ZERO CD and ZERO LIMIT, meaning its A MUST have if you want to be competitive in WvW in large groups.

Just the fact that you are forced to have it, makes it clear that its a broken mechanic.
Furthermore the fact that it makes some classes, like Engi’s, not viable in zerging.

SilverWF.4789:

I won’t “remove Retaliaton”, I say “make it the same for every class”.
Period.

It is already the same for every class. SO it is not a problem with retaliation but with the use or the functioning of the grenade and the flamethrower skill(s).

If this remains a problem I’d suggest lookking towards your kit-skills and see how you can improve upon them . Not calling fro a retaliation nerf.

aspirine.6852:

Pax, I have no problem with retal and for instance meteor showering zergs. In fact I have less retal damage from the whole meteor channel than one single skill one with my grenade kit.
And this grenade 1 does what, around 1500 damage in total compared to the meteor showers 50k damage?
I agree we cant make something like throw grenades too powerfull, we cant have engi’s shine all of a sudden in WvW group play now cant we

The one grenade*throw* does 750 damage vs 15 people so 11.25k (15 procs).
and my Meteor shower does 4000 dmg in wvw (8500 in pve) and can give 72 retaL procs, It’s like your 5 grenade skills (75 retal procs) combined then you’ll be doing 5 times 11k, all of a sudden or 55k dmg…

So please… Do not compare 1 grenade with 1 meteor shower. Compare 1 grenade throw with 5 fireballs as it does 5 times 1500 dmg vs 3 targets. and will give the same amount of procs: 15.

Silver, you’re getting this way too much into your head.
Tim wrote quite a nice thing which I believe is a basic knowledge about weapon and skill sets.

Novuake.2691:

A bit of odd maths, but your reasoning is sound.

However, Might vs Damage procs are not comparable.
There are VERY few sigils with 1 sec internal CDs, you just used the most extreme case that as mentioned is not comparable at all in effect.
Self kill in one volley vs a damage buff sigil.

The point is that Retal procs have ZERO CD and ZERO LIMIT, meaning its A MUST have if you want to be competitive in WvW in large groups.

Just the fact that you are forced to have it, makes it clear that its a broken mechanic.
Furthermore the fact that it makes some classes, like Engi’s, not viable in zerging.

Yeah the math is shaky and I use an extreme example but it still can have an influence from 6% to 300% depending on the sigil. I also never said that engineers facing retaliation wasn’t a problem. I just claim that the problem in that sceneraio can be solved better by changing the grenade and/or flamethrower kit auto attack.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

aspirine.6852:

Pax, I have no problem with retal and for instance meteor showering zergs. In fact I have less retal damage from the whole meteor channel than one single skill one with my grenade kit.
And this grenade 1 does what, around 1500 damage in total compared to the meteor showers 50k damage?
I agree we cant make something like throw grenades too powerfull, we cant have engi’s shine all of a sudden in WvW group play now cant we

The one grenade*throw* does 1500 damage vs 15 people so 22.5k (15 procs).
and my Meteor shower does 4000 dmg in wvw (8500 in pve) and can give 72 retaL procs, It’s like your 5 grenade skills (75 retal procs) combined then you’ll be doing 5 times 22.5k all of a sudden or 112.5k dmg…

So please… Do not compare 1 grenade with 1 meteor shower. Compare 1 grenade throw with 5 fireballs as it does 5 times 1500 dmg vs 3 targets. and will give the same amount of procs: 15.

No my grenades do about 1500 damage in total to everyone, perhaps a little more but not a lot. . I dont have a power build or anything.

Tim.6450:

Novuake.2691:

A bit of odd maths, but your reasoning is sound.

However, Might vs Damage procs are not comparable.
There are VERY few sigils with 1 sec internal CDs, you just used the most extreme case that as mentioned is not comparable at all in effect.
Self kill in one volley vs a damage buff sigil.

The point is that Retal procs have ZERO CD and ZERO LIMIT, meaning its A MUST have if you want to be competitive in WvW in large groups.

Just the fact that you are forced to have it, makes it clear that its a broken mechanic.
Furthermore the fact that it makes some classes, like Engi’s, not viable in zerging.

Yeah the math is shaky and I use an extreme example but it still can have an influence from 6% to 300% depending on the sigil. I also never said that engineers facing retaliation wasn’t a problem. I just claim that the problem in that sceneraio can be solved better by changing the grenade and/or flamethrower kit auto attack.

True.

But there are A LOT of skill changes needed then.

Retal fix vs 40 (sketchy guess) skills needing to be recoded?
Pretty sure ANYONE can realize which would take less resources AND have a more far reaching required change.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

I do not NEED more sustain, I know enemies will use retaliation, and anticipate, I use well of suffering first with necro, just because of this.
And when on ele You WILL get full hits when you attack zergs. And while you will not get the 100000 damage, but IF they use retal you will go down. = Anti spike...

And staff #1 from guard hits 5 people, You hit 15 _with corresponding conditions_ do not forget that. You can say retaliation is op , but please also reverse it. You have IMHO one of the easiest weaponsets available , with a very short cooldown, providing massive AOE.

Making it completely unpunishable would also instantly require a drastic engineer grenade NERF, as enigineers are already OP as shown in PvP. You are just trying to make enigineer MORE OP. And NERF 5 other classes.

I fully disagree with your motivation engineer is the only victim, and I want to know how people are going to defend against AOEs? Especially unblockable marks, unblockable traps and BIG AOE fields?

And I tried to explain other AOE fields with pulses will also get a lot of retaliation damage. You seem to fail to see having your 5 skills hitting *75 targets* in seconds can cause problems, to yourself. Also IMHO when I hear I shouldn’t cry about people staying in my MS why do you focus so much about all those people in YOUR field of fire, as they should be moving off as well?

I think you are aware how dangerous Flamthrowers are when fighting them with melee weapons. and while trying to melee retaliation is needed else you will fail... which would cause flamthrower to be nerfed as well as conseqence...

In the end: recapping: Your grenades are High Risk High Reward, as are my meteor showers or 8 stacked Wells& Marks. And I would very much dislike it to see retaliation removed as it would make all AOE skills something different: It would make AoE’s _overpowered_ and thus ready to be NERFED.

Everything needs a counter in a game else it will be overpowered, and anything that will be OP will be nerfed.

Mate, you are blinded or what? High risk reward? Not grenades. Nades dealing a way low damage for being called like that.
(your PVP experience just LOL. Retaliation is not an issue in PVP)

You are continue popping this stupid example with Meteor shower? Ok, let’s take it.
24 hits per 3 target each. 72 separate hits. 72*400=28800 retaliation damage.
But, Ele can switch to water and start healing himself. Or use another skills to deal damage.
Also, it goes not in 1 second, but in 9 seconds, so it will be 3200 retal damage per second only
But, how many damage he able to do total? Every meteor hits for ~3,5k damage (2,5k non crit and up to 5k crit), so let’s calculate: 72*3500=252k damage and more!

What’s about Engi here?
Flame jet hits 3 targets with 5 _ hits per second. So, it will be 3*5*9=135 unique hits per 9 seconds.
It will bring him 54000 retaliation damage or 6k per second. Without possibility to switch for something healing.
What about total damage? Every FJ hit deals ~500 damage. Or 67500 damage per 9 seconds total.
(Sooooo overpowered, yeah!)

Nades.
3 nades per 5 targets, 2 times in 1 second: 3*5*2*9=270 unique hits.
270*400 = 108000 retaliation damage or 12k per second
every nade able to hit for ~800r, so it will be 216k total
FOUR times more "rewarding" than Elems, right?

Guardian staff#1
10 hits every second or 90 hits
90*400=36k or 4k/sec
Every hit deals ~1500 damage or 135k total
the same non-cd and non-target skill

So, point me please to the TRULY rewarding risk.

Novuake.2691:

True.

But there are A LOT of skill changes needed then.

Retal fix vs 40 (sketchy guess) skills needing to be recoded?
Pretty sure ANYONE can realize which would take less resources AND have a more far reaching required change.

Well, considering that retaliation influences every skill (including mobs from pve) , it could be possible that you’re better off changing just the 40 skills.

Also what are those 40 skills (just the bulk)? I consider the amount to be around 20 (grenades, flamethrower, ranger longbow come to mind) and not all have to be solved. They can be utility , the rest of the weapon is not that disadvantegious regarding retaliation, the class has no problems with retaliation itself or the class has a viable alternative.

edit: change 10 to 20

SilverWF.4789:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

I do not NEED more sustain, I know enemies will use retaliation, and anticipate, I use well of suffering first with necro, just because of this.
And when on ele You WILL get full hits when you attack zergs. And while you will not get the 100000 damage, but IF they use retal you will go down. = Anti spike…

And staff #1 from guard hits 5 people, You hit 15 with corresponding conditions do not forget that. You can say retaliation is op , but please also reverse it. You have IMHO one of the easiest weaponsets available , with a very short cooldown, providing massive AOE.

Making it completely unpunishable would also instantly require a drastic engineer grenade NERF, as enigineers are already OP as shown in PvP. You are just trying to make enigineer MORE OP. And NERF 5 other classes.

I fully disagree with your motivation engineer is the only victim, and I want to know how people are going to defend against AOEs? Especially unblockable marks, unblockable traps and BIG AOE fields?

And I tried to explain other AOE fields with pulses will also get a lot of retaliation damage. You seem to fail to see having your 5 skills hitting 75 targets in seconds can cause problems, to yourself. Also IMHO when I hear I shouldn’t cry about people staying in my MS why do you focus so much about all those people in YOUR field of fire, as they should be moving off as well?

I think you are aware how dangerous Flamthrowers are when fighting them with melee weapons. and while trying to melee retaliation is needed else you will fail… which would cause flamthrower to be nerfed as well as conseqence…

In the end: recapping: Your grenades are High Risk High Reward, as are my meteor showers or 8 stacked Wells& Marks. And I would very much dislike it to see retaliation removed as it would make all AOE skills something different: It would make AoE’s overpowered and thus ready to be NERFED.

Everything needs a counter in a game else it will be overpowered, and anything that will be OP will be nerfed.

Mate, you are blinded or what? High risk reward? Not grenades. Nades dealing a way low damage for being called like that.
(your PVP experience just LOL. Retaliation is not an issue in PVP)

You are continue popping this stupid example with Meteor shower? Ok, let’s take it.
24 hits per 3 target each. 72 separate hits. 72*400=28800 retaliation damage.
But, Ele can switch to water and start healing himself. Or use another skills to deal damage.
Also, it goes not in 1 second, but in 9 seconds, so it will be 3200 retal damage per second only
But, how many damage he able to do total? Every meteor hits for ~3,5k damage (2,5k non crit and up to 5k crit), so let’s calculate: 72*3500=252k damage and more!

What’s about Engi here?
Flame jet hits 3 targets with 5 _ hits per second. So, it will be 3*5*9=135 unique hits per 9 seconds.
It will bring him 54000 retaliation damage or 6k per second. Without possibility to switch for something healing.
What about total damage? Every FJ hit deals ~500 damage. Or 67500 damage per 9 seconds total.
(Sooooo overpowered, yeah!)

Nades.
3 nades per 5 targets, 2 times in 1 second: 3*5*2*9=270 unique hits.
270*400 = 108000 retaliation damage or 12k per second
every nade able to hit for ~800r, so it will be 216k total
FOUR times more “rewarding” than Elems, right?

Guardian staff#1
10 hits every second or 90 hits
90*400=36k or 4k/sec
Every hit deals ~1500 damage or 135k total
the same non-cd and non-target skill

So, point me please to the TRULY rewarding risk.

The truly rewarding skill is stopping what you’re doing, then doing something that doesn’t immediately cause you to kill yourself.

I’m sure you can find something other than flamethrower and grenades to use, yeah? Some other way to be useful sometimes? I see engineers out there plenty often. I see plenty of them not dropping dead all the time like the world’s out to get them.

Adapt or keep dyin’, mate. There’s a very good chance they’re not going to nerf this no matter what you think or don’t.

Ranger longbow is okay.
I did once used in EotM Rapid fire + Piercing Arrows on Retaliation group.
The moment my hp started going down, I simply dodge roll back to break channeling.
My mistake for not paying attention.
Therefore I was punished for it

Tim.6450:

Novuake.2691:

True.

But there are A LOT of skill changes needed then.

Retal fix vs 40 (sketchy guess) skills needing to be recoded?
Pretty sure ANYONE can realize which would take less resources AND have a more far reaching required change.

Well, considering that retaliation influences every skill (including mobs from pve) , it could be possible that you’re better off changing just the 40 skills.

Also what are those 40 skills (just the bulk)? I consider the amount to be around 10 (grenades, flamethrower, ranger longbow come to mind) and not all have to be solved. They can be utility , the rest of the weapon is not that disadvantegious regarding retaliation, the class has no problems with retaliation itself or the class has a viable alternative.

Elementalist has ALOT of skills that proc similarly to nades/ft/LB5.
Lava Font
Meteor as mentioned above.
Pretty much all the signet of storms skills. (Not sure about this).
Warrior Sword adreno skill.
Pretty much any condi proc that does low power damage on hit. A LOT of these, although they are not as problematic as the already mentioned.

naiasonod.9265:

The truly rewarding skill is stopping what you’re doing, then doing something that doesn’t immediately cause you to kill yourself.

I’m sure you can find something other than flamethrower and grenades to use, yeah? Some other way to be useful sometimes? I see engineers out there plenty often. I see plenty of them not dropping dead all the time like the world’s out to get them.

Adapt or keep dyin’, mate. There’s a very good chance they’re not going to nerf this no matter what you think or don’t.

You just approved that I’m right.
Because “stopping what you’re doing” means “stop dealing damage” and with the same amount of Retaliation that Elem have you will bring maybe 10 times less damage.
So how the hell you dare to say about “rewarding risk”??? If I’m risking – OK, but where is my reward?

aspirine.6852:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

aspirine.6852:

Pax, I have no problem with retal and for instance meteor showering zergs. In fact I have less retal damage from the whole meteor channel than one single skill one with my grenade kit.
And this grenade 1 does what, around 1500 damage in total compared to the meteor showers 50k damage?
I agree we cant make something like throw grenades too powerfull, we cant have engi’s shine all of a sudden in WvW group play now cant we

The one grenade*throw* does 1500 damage vs 15 people so 22.5k (15 procs).
and my Meteor shower does 4000 dmg in wvw (8500 in pve) and can give 72 retaL procs, It’s like your 5 grenade skills (75 retal procs) combined then you’ll be doing 5 times 22.5k all of a sudden or 112.5k dmg…

So please… Do not compare 1 grenade with 1 meteor shower. Compare 1 grenade throw with 5 fireballs as it does 5 times 1500 dmg vs 3 targets. and will give the same amount of procs: 15.

No my grenades do about 1500 damage in total to everyone, perhaps a little more but not a lot. . I dont have a power build or anything.

Then you’re using a condi build, then know you’re hitting 15 people with a condition at the same time with 4 skills, NO OTHER PROFFESION can match it! NONE!

SO grenades are very strong if not OP, and therefore they are hit hard by retaliation.

So, to make it ABSOLUTELY fair, Retaliation must bring the % of incoming damage (after armor and boons calculation sure). Maybe 5%, but it is debatable.
Also, it will be pretty easy to implement.

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

The truly rewarding skill is stopping what you’re doing, then doing something that doesn’t immediately cause you to kill yourself.

I’m sure you can find something other than flamethrower and grenades to use, yeah? Some other way to be useful sometimes? I see engineers out there plenty often. I see plenty of them not dropping dead all the time like the world’s out to get them.

Adapt or keep dyin’, mate. There’s a very good chance they’re not going to nerf this no matter what you think or don’t.

You just approved that I’m right.
Because “stopping what you’re doing” means “stop dealing damage” and with the same amount of Retaliation that Elem have you will bring maybe 10 times less damage.
So how the hell you dare to say about “rewarding risk”??? If I’m risking – OK, but where is my reward?

Your reward is attacking when there is NO retaliation. Why do you want to force the world your zerk engi to be OP ranged power build with no risk? just stand at 1200 range and nothing to worry about? And I understand that grenade barrage will be a problem, 7*5 targets in 1 throw… making 35 hits. But can’t you see why?

What you are asking is OP. So no, no %-ge, no 1 time per second. Just make sure you watch and check your targets before you throw, if needed all 35…. And leave the rest. It’s your choice to throw them and theirs to react, either by retal or dodge or reflect.

Reason why no %-ge: because all condi builds will have no mitigation anymore. you’ll do 200 dmg per grenade/person and get 10 dmg/person on retal… for 150 retalled and 15 times a condition… For conditions which can tick up for hundreds or even thousands of damage. Not to mention combined.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

aspirine.6852:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

aspirine.6852:

Pax, I have no problem with retal and for instance meteor showering zergs. In fact I have less retal damage from the whole meteor channel than one single skill one with my grenade kit.
And this grenade 1 does what, around 1500 damage in total compared to the meteor showers 50k damage?
I agree we cant make something like throw grenades too powerfull, we cant have engi’s shine all of a sudden in WvW group play now cant we

The one grenade*throw* does 1500 damage vs 15 people so 22.5k (15 procs).
and my Meteor shower does 4000 dmg in wvw (8500 in pve) and can give 72 retaL procs, It’s like your 5 grenade skills (75 retal procs) combined then you’ll be doing 5 times 22.5k all of a sudden or 112.5k dmg…

So please… Do not compare 1 grenade with 1 meteor shower. Compare 1 grenade throw with 5 fireballs as it does 5 times 1500 dmg vs 3 targets. and will give the same amount of procs: 15.

No my grenades do about 1500 damage in total to everyone, perhaps a little more but not a lot. . I dont have a power build or anything.

Then you’re using a condi build, then know you’re hitting 15 people with a condition at the same time with 4 skills, NO OTHER PROFFESION can match it! NONE!

SO grenades are very strong if not OP, and therefore they are hit hard by retaliation.

Single target condi application :

Engi Pistol 2?
Ele Scepter 2 (I think).

There are quite a few. Just can not seem to think of any now.

But I agree when it comes to condi application, nades can be OP, still not usable with retal though.

Nah it’s fine. L2P.

fireflyry.7023:

Nah it’s fine. L2P.

VERY insightful! Thanks for your valuable input.

Your welcome

Novuake.2691:

But I agree when it comes to condi application, nades can be OP, still not usable with retal though.

There is no place to discuss this, but not. Nades are way OP to bring Vulnerability condition only, all another traits has internal CD, so forget about AOE.
Also, it was approved, that conditions are not an issue in big fights because there is way more ways to constantly cleanse it from self and allies – most of time it can’t even tick once!

Oh yeah, give % of spike damage.
Inb4 why power users have to be punished and condition users to be boosted?
blablabla.

fireflyry.7023:

Nah it’s fine. L2P.

^this.

SilverWF.4789:

So, to make it ABSOLUTELY fair, Retaliation must bring the % of incoming damage (after armor and boons calculation sure). Maybe 5%, but it is debatable.
Also, it will be pretty easy to implement.

This

Tao.5096:

Oh yeah, give % of spike damage.
Inb4 why power users have to be punished and condition users to be boosted?
blablabla.

fireflyry.7023:

Nah it’s fine. L2P.

^this.

Yeah punishing power users is a bad move.

All that is needed is a 2 or even 1 second CD on retal procs.

is it really that difficult for people to keep track of boons?

Just… don’t attack when retaliation is up?

So… don’t attack a zerg at all?

Tom Gore.4035:

So… don’t attack a zerg at all?

You’ve missed the point.

This:

You are continue popping this stupid example with Meteor shower? Ok, let’s take it.
24 hits per 3 target each. 72 separate hits. 72*400=28800 retaliation damage.
But, Ele can switch to water and start healing himself. Or use another skills to deal damage.
Also, it goes not in 1 second, but in 9 seconds, so it will be 3200 retal damage per second only
But, how many damage he able to do total? Every meteor hits for ~3,5k damage (2,5k non crit and up to 5k crit), so let’s calculate: 72*3500=252k damage and more!

What’s about Engi here?
Flame jet hits 3 targets with 5 _ hits per second. So, it will be 3*5*9=135 unique hits per 9 seconds.
It will bring him 54000 retaliation damage or 6k per second. Without possibility to switch for something healing.
What about total damage? Every FJ hit deals ~500 damage. Or 67500 damage per 9 seconds total.
(Sooooo overpowered, yeah!)

Nades.
3 nades per 5 targets, 2 times in 1 second: 3*5*2*9=270 unique hits.
270*400 = 108000 retaliation damage or 12k per second
every nade able to hit for ~800r, so it will be 216k total
FOUR times more “rewarding” than Elems, right?

Guardian staff#1
10 hits every second or 90 hits
90*400=36k or 4k/sec
Every hit deals ~1500 damage or 135k total
the same non-cd and non-target skill

So, point me please to the TRULY rewarding risk.

rapthorne.7345:

is it really that difficult for people to keep track of boons?

Just… don’t attack when retaliation is up?

So we should track 100 odd people’s boons?

rapthorne.7345:

is it really that difficult for people to keep track of boons?

Just… don’t attack when retaliation is up?

I scout a lot for the server. Engi is great for that. I normally dont even run grenades but when an object is attacked I stay and try to delay untill help comes along. In that case I switch to nades to try to defend the tower/keep. But you say dont do anything at all, because retal is pretty much up 100%. With my Ele I can even try to destroy siege with my Meteor shower, with my engi I might aswell move because anything I do will get you killed. Or do you think attack with pistol 1 would do much

SilverWF.4789:

This:

Nades.
3 nades per 5 targets, 2 times in 1 second: 3*5*2*9=270 unique hits.
270*400 = 108000 retaliation damage or 12k per second
every nade able to hit for ~800r, so it will be 216k total
FOUR times more “rewarding” than Elems, right?

Euh, grenades attack speed lies about 1 set per second not 2. Also you forgot the 15 stacks of vulnerability you apply per set.

Tim.6450:

SilverWF.4789:

This:

Nades.
3 nades per 5 targets, 2 times in 1 second: 3*5*2*9=270 unique hits.
270*400 = 108000 retaliation damage or 12k per second
every nade able to hit for ~800r, so it will be 216k total
FOUR times more “rewarding” than Elems, right?

Euh, grenades attack speed lies about 1 set per second not 2. Also you forgot the 15 stacks of vulnerability you apply per set.

So? It will be 6k Retaliation per second with 108k damage total. Do you really don’t understand where you was failed or not?
15 stacks of Vuln at each target per throw? Really?

If you lower the value to a percentage condition enigineer would be OP. So would any other condition user in the game… if they’d use an AOE field for conditions or not.

While you’d still do full condi dmg in vulnerability/bleeding/poison and chill, you’d be hiding a LOT of hidden dmg behind a very thin retaliation-like illusion.

OP. Again.

And I’m not going to argue about a lot of damage when fighting someone with retaliation, You are just to focussed to see others experience it as well…

And having a NON-LOS weapon which can dmg 15 seperate targets EVERY second
Damages are per hit and can be applied up to 15 times. depending on the spread of targets.

I was wondering and calculated it, based on the simplest of things without buffs and so on.
Calculated for a 3000 armor guardian in wvw (most extreme I could think of, no use using a zerk ele now would it)
for 109+((0.33*2400*1100)/3000)= 400 dmg base with 1 vulnerability and a chance of bleeding…
(base guardian armor in wvw 3000, general power of power users 2400, weapon dmg ~1100. leaving all boosts in power and traits to the side.)

Or against heavy armor zerk in pve
for 109+((0.33*2400*1100)/2100)= 570 dmg base / grenade with 1 vulnerability and a chance of bleeding…
(base zerk armor in pve 2100, general power of power users 2400, weapons dmge ~1100)

Things which do not seem to count this is the lowest damaging grenade skill with 1 second and then recharged and ready to rethrow , NO need for LOS

The other 4 grenade skills provide conditions, which are not empty for grenadiers, generally when running precision they tend to have 200-250 condition dmg as well, and those conditions are not counted. Not counting most other grendades as they scale better and do more conditions. And lastly not counting MIGHT… which will raise the amounts of physical and condition damage considerably.

While I agree 400 retal on your 400 dmg doing grenade is much, but you can lob it anywhere. And the fact you can stack a lot of vulnerabilty, and get +10% dmg isn’t in this calculation, nor is food and utilities,nor are crits, nor other buffs. It does show grenades need a secondary stat to be more dangerous but still I do not agree why we should reduce retaliation.

Like I said It’s not retaliation which is the problem it is engineers skills which are the problem. If they’d allow for less ticks you’d be out of a problem now, would you? So recheck the skill. Suggest a skill functionality change. NOT retaliation.

If the damage is actually this low why run the grenade kit in the first place? You could ask for the grenades to be combined reducing your problem to half or even a third of what it was before, like you could ask for the flamethrower to proc less, 3 or 4 times a second instead of 5. It could solve a lot of problems.

And now 1 thing: please do not come and say well it’s only 400, Now also admit you use food, get a 10% free buff from traits, get a wvw buff, utilities, might, I also didn’t calculate the vulnerability, leaving your actual damage 100-300 higher per grenade on hit then what is listed here, EXCLUDING conditions AND criticals (dmg * 1.5 minimum, (up to 2.0)) calculated for HEAVY classes.

And have 15 chances to trigger this damage per second.
This allows in cetrain areas for up to 15k dmg with a throw of grenades reecharged in 1 sec. EXCLUDING conditions.

Where is your reward? guess in the fact you can hit people for up to 1200- 2250 dmg every second over 1200 range giving 3 vulnerability with a SMALL chance of bleeds
and do not even have to see them. I am not even going to talk about the 4 other skills, they hit fewer targets (9 hits max), but the 6 attack skills combined…(grenade barrage on the toolbelt)

SilverWF.4789:

Tim.6450:

SilverWF.4789:

This:

Nades.
3 nades per 5 targets, 2 times in 1 second: 3*5*2*9=270 unique hits.
270*400 = 108000 retaliation damage or 12k per second
every nade able to hit for ~800r, so it will be 216k total
FOUR times more “rewarding” than Elems, right?

Euh, grenades attack speed lies about 1 set per second not 2. Also you forgot the 15 stacks of vulnerability you apply per set.

So? It will be 6k Retaliation per second with 108k damage total. Do you really don’t understand where you was failed or not?
15 stacks of Vuln at each target per throw? Really?

He said “15 stacks of vulnerability you apply per set.” per set being per series of grenades thrown. So you throw 3 grenades and hit 5 targets with each explosion. 3 × 5 = 15. He didn’t say 15 stacks per target.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

The reason why no -ge would be if you’d do base damage, say 100/grenade and you get 5 retal you’d be "punished " with 5 dmg *15 targets is 75 damage. while you’d still do full condi dmg in vulnerability/bleeding/poison and chill, hiding a LOT of hidden dmg behind a very thin illusion.

OP. Again.

Not. Try to find zerg fights by yourself and check conditions.
Maybe after that you’ll see WHY condi specs are NOT viable here even now – even for Necros meta is Power specs.
Not because of Retaliation, yeah.
If you’ll failed to understand it by yourself, ask some experienced players about that.

AdaephonDelat.3890:

SilverWF.4789:

Tim.6450:

SilverWF.4789:

This:

Nades.
3 nades per 5 targets, 2 times in 1 second: 3*5*2*9=270 unique hits.
270*400 = 108000 retaliation damage or 12k per second
every nade able to hit for ~800r, so it will be 216k total
FOUR times more “rewarding” than Elems, right?

Euh, grenades attack speed lies about 1 set per second not 2. Also you forgot the 15 stacks of vulnerability you apply per set.

So? It will be 6k Retaliation per second with 108k damage total. Do you really don’t understand where you was failed or not?
15 stacks of Vuln at each target per throw? Really?

He said “15 stacks of vulnerability you apply per set.” per set being per series of grenades thrown. So you throw 3 grenades and hit 5 targets with each explosion. 3 × 5 = 15. He didn’t say 15 stacks per target.

facepalm.jpg
So it was total number of stacks? LOL
1st: read about conditions in zerg
2nd: LOL again

They should add special effect in PvE, like increase aggro rate,increase defense when receive retaliation and enemy attack speed increase nearby player that got retaliation so that it will be more damaging for enemies in PvE. Should only increase in defense and no attack speed boost for bosses however.