Guild Wars 2

If Anet prevents you from spamming anything in chat, including WTS, why can’t they prevent people cluttering up the LFG tool with WTS?

Ok, so now I’m looking for a SW layer and once again I see WTB/WTS ad’s. Sigh, so what are we doing about this, reporting for LFG abuse? For those abusing the LFG tool to try and circumvent the TP fee’s, we all pay the fee’s to keep trading safe and secure for the entire GW2 community. For those without the funds to sell an item, think of it this way, you were blessed enough to get such an high valued item to begin with. The least you can do is be patient and gather the gold for the TP fee’s. Anything else is just being extremely selfish.

The thing is, this sort of thing spreads once it gets started and doesn’t get a hard check by the game. How much more time will it be till the LFG is filled with mid level value items, then low level?

LTS one stack iron ore
LTS 10 ectos

:/

Imo, ANet should take a much stronger stand on this and announce that it is an offense punishable with suspension. It’s getting worse and they are going to have to do something sooner or later. It might as well be sooner.

Or heck, if they don’t want to take a firm stand, just make a LTS tab and let it all hang out. Post, sell and buy at your own risk.

^^ Agree

Yup, I agree with that too.

Is it important to note this is only happening because their is no trade system/interface in game to trade between players. BLT owns all trades and Consortium isn’t trying to get in on the action or an advantageous Asura .

They DON’T want players to trade between themselves, because if enough players do so, it would neuter the BLTC which is the game’s primary gold sink via its trading fees. They NEED to keep players using the BLTC. Or, alternatively, even player to player trading gets taxed at the same rate as the BLTC.

It serves multiple purposes. It is a gold sink. It is also a way to trade items without risk of being scammed.

And as I see it, if you want to sell the item, you pay the fees. If you don’t, you are just being extra greedy. Be thankful you got the valuable item in the first place.

As for soon you’ll be seeing people selling low ticket items? Kinda late for that, it’s been going on, and only continues to get worse. I wholeheartedly agree Anet must take a firm stance, or give them an alternative on lfg so they quit tying up people trying to legitimately use LFG for it’s intended purpose.

Dont suspend people for selling stuff on the LFG just send out a warning somewhere or make another tab. A reason why these legendaries and precs are going up on the LFG is because a lot of people posted them up on the TP before the announcement that there would be a scavenger hunt coming. They would put for example dawn up for 1000+g and find out a couple days later the price went down to around 800g because of the announcement. Instead of wasting the gold from relisting it and the risk of getting undercut with the falling prices its much easier to just sell it directly to a player. Its really risky but imagine if you got that lucky and then that unlucky with the announcement, or if you spent the months to get a legendary to sell and found out that you should have started a month earlier.

JustTrogdor.7892:

People that are selling dungeon runs are inviting people to their group to do so. Thus looking for a group of players willing to join and pay for the run. They are not using the LFG tool as a grey market.

Of course they are.. they might be joining a group but they still pay gold over an LFG system that is not intended for sales of anything.
As for joining a group to run the content – that’s complete rubbish 99% of the time anyway, they join to finish the last 1% of the end fight and grab the chest, its not a dungeon run at all its paying for a chest with tokens etc.
Another issue is the selling of portals for jump puzzles via LFG – sure you can join a group, just like joining a group to buy the guys legendary, but your not running the content your merely paying for a portal to the chest… and all 3 of those sellable features that regularly appear on the LFG are open to abuse and can leave players out of pocket with nothing to show for it once the scams are finishes and the advertiser logs off.

ANET just like to hide behind clouded veils and double standards, just like they do with openworld event exploits., their ToS are a joke and not worth the time they took to write up imo.

LFG tools are for grouping to run content not end chest openings and item sales period and should be insta bannable.

Bloodstealer.5978:

JustTrogdor.7892:

People that are selling dungeon runs are inviting people to their group to do so. Thus looking for a group of players willing to join and pay for the run. They are not using the LFG tool as a grey market.

Of course they are.. they might be joining a group but they still pay gold over an LFG system that is not intended for sales of anything.
As for joining a group to run the content – that’s complete rubbish 99% of the time anyway, they join to finish the last 1% of the end fight and grab the chest, its not a dungeon run at all its paying for a chest with tokens etc.
Another issue is the selling of portals for jump puzzles via LFG – sure you can join a group, just like joining a group to buy the guys legendary, but your not running the content your merely paying for a portal to the chest… and all 3 of those sellable features that regularly appear on the LFG are open to abuse and can leave players out of pocket with nothing to show for it once the scams are finishes and the advertiser logs off.

ANET just like to hide behind clouded veils and double standards, just like they do with openworld event exploits., their ToS are a joke and not worth the time they took to write up imo.

LFG tools are for grouping to run content not end chest openings and item sales period and should be insta bannable.

What…r u saying… this must be sarcasm right?
they already said selling dungeons is alright. Jumping puzzles isnt even a big deal.

People who have extra gold spend it to save time instead of having to do a run. People who can solo dungeons do them and sell them to make gold from the amount of skill and effort it took them to complete the dungeon. Its fair and its at the risk of the player let people do what they want to do

I won’t report someone for LFG abuse if they decide to use it to trade.

From the red post, it seems that selling items on the LFG tool is not a bannable offense, just something they discourage (for reasons I can understand). If someone decides it’s a good idea to make 100 more gold with a chance of getting scammed, it’s their judgment call – risk vs reward and all that.

Also, what does the “group” part of LFG mean exactly to warrant a report for LFG abuse?

Person A is looking for a group of people to do dungeons with.
Person B is looking for someone to taxi him to a certain instance, or is looking to taxi a group of people to his instance.
Person C is looking for a group of people to join his guild.
Person D is looking for a group of people to sell dungeon runs / JP portals to.
Person E is a new player and is looking for a group of people to teach him the ropes or some mechanic.
Person F is looking for a group of potential buyers / sellers of a certain item.
Person G is just looking for a group to chat with.

What determines which of the individuals above, who are all looking for groups for different purposes, are abusing the system?

It’ll be nice to have a “general” section in the LFG tool to accommodate some of the things I described above.

Please nip this in the bud before it gets hard to find anything but these type of posts.

It’d be great to have a CLEAR comment from Anet whether using the LFG system to sell is an offence or not (and whether it should/shouldn’t be reported).

Under current conditions, I would assume that it IS a reportable offence. (From what is written in the link https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/bltc/Selling-items-to-players-for-in-game-currency/first#post4464679).

The problem here is that people are playing devil’s advocate because the dev comment (along with Gaile’s comment) isn’t quite precise enough. It does not say specifically “Using the LFG as a way to advertise trade is against the rules and reportable as LFG System Abuse”.

But anyway, I’ve been joining these LFG trade groups and saying what I presume: that LFG trade advertising is against the rules as it falls under LFG system abuse.

A lot of people are surprised when they find out that it (most likely) is against the rules- but of course they are surprised! How are they meant to know otherwise? (apart from a little bit of common sense, I suppose?)

So many people are using the LFG as a way to trade people are assuming that it’s ok to do so. After all, there’s no obvious sign saying otherwise.

I’d prefer these people to be told a kind way rather than be reported for something that they didn’t know was wrong. So, I jump into their parties and tell them what I know. It makes sure that they are safe and it reduces the spam on the lfg.

It’s not just precursors anymore, either. I’ve seen BL trading contracts and rare back items being advertised now. It’s going to snowball to “cheaper” items like T6 stacks and damask soon, I guarantee it.

Personally, I don’t fancy the idea of having to scroll through lengths of open world LFG trading stuff just to find a SW map or whatever it may be.

So, either ANet needs to make it explicit to everybody, or they need to allow it under a new frame in the LFG system and a safe player-to-player trading system outside TP (the latter probably won’t happen).

Edits: nit-picky grammar stuff

Sellers are out in force tonight…

How can people get scammed when they can always look up prices on the actual TP beforehand if they wish to use the lfg venue to sell/buy items..?

KarlaGrey.5903:

How can people get scammed when they can always look up prices on the actual TP beforehand if they wish to use the lfg venue to sell/buy items..?

The problem is one side could just not mail their side of the deal. Which, happens fairly often.

So, people don’t want to pay listing and sale percentages, mm?

The phrase ‘and nobody was surprised’ comes to mind. Ahh well. I’ll neither condemn it nor take part in it.

Lazaar.9123:

KarlaGrey.5903:

How can people get scammed when they can always look up prices on the actual TP beforehand if they wish to use the lfg venue to sell/buy items..?

The problem is one side could just not mail their side of the deal. Which, happens fairly often.

Oh yea, I forgot there is no direct trading anymore………………………………..

Perhaps Anet should add a warning to the LFG tool about how it is not intended for selling and they will not replace items when you are scammed.

I love how sellers on the TP will post precursors/legendarys at 25g cheaper than the TP.

As if I’m going to risk all my gold to be scammed just to save 25g…

There is a secondary market for those who buy an expensive item via a buy order then turn around and sell it via lfg. As long as they are the second to act in the lfg trade, it’s safe for them (the seller) and they stand to make decent coinage.

Anet just need to let few GMs monitor LFG at random time each day and use warning or few day ban on that are selling on LFG tool,soon no1 would sell on it and GMs can focus on other problems.

Killface.1896:

Anet just need to let few GMs monitor LFG at random time each day and use warning or few day ban on that are selling on LFG tool,soon no1 would sell on it and GMs can focus on other problems.

Even in Gaile’s response, she never states that you can’t use LFG for selling. Anet only states that they will not replace your item or good if you are scammed. They will take disciplinary action if there is proof that someone scammed, but the item and gold are still not replaced. Selling via lfg is allowed, whether we like it or not, and Anet holds a “look the other way” mentality with it.

rhapsody.3615:

Killface.1896:

Anet just need to let few GMs monitor LFG at random time each day and use warning or few day ban on that are selling on LFG tool,soon no1 would sell on it and GMs can focus on other problems.

Even in Gaile’s response, she never states that you can’t use LFG for selling. Anet only states that they will not replace your item or good if you are scammed. They will take disciplinary action if there is proof that someone scammed, but the item and gold are still not replaced. Selling via lfg is allowed, whether we like it or not, and Anet holds a “look the other way” mentality with it.

Silence isn’t necessarily a “yes” or a “no”.

Ayrilana.1396:

rhapsody.3615:

Killface.1896:

Anet just need to let few GMs monitor LFG at random time each day and use warning or few day ban on that are selling on LFG tool,soon no1 would sell on it and GMs can focus on other problems.

Even in Gaile’s response, she never states that you can’t use LFG for selling. Anet only states that they will not replace your item or good if you are scammed. They will take disciplinary action if there is proof that someone scammed, but the item and gold are still not replaced. Selling via lfg is allowed, whether we like it or not, and Anet holds a “look the other way” mentality with it.

Silence isn’t necessarily a “yes” or a “no”.

When asked about mods, they said its against the rules. When asked about botting, they said its against the rules. When asked about scamming, they said its against the rules. When asked about gold buying, they said its against the rules. When asked about trading on LFG, they said its a bad idea.

I would say, silence means it’s not against the rules. If it was against the rules, then what do they gain by refusing to say so?

Astral Projections.7320:

Ayrilana.1396:

rhapsody.3615:

Killface.1896:

Anet just need to let few GMs monitor LFG at random time each day and use warning or few day ban on that are selling on LFG tool,soon no1 would sell on it and GMs can focus on other problems.

Even in Gaile’s response, she never states that you can’t use LFG for selling. Anet only states that they will not replace your item or good if you are scammed. They will take disciplinary action if there is proof that someone scammed, but the item and gold are still not replaced. Selling via lfg is allowed, whether we like it or not, and Anet holds a “look the other way” mentality with it.

Silence isn’t necessarily a “yes” or a “no”.

When asked about mods, they said its against the rules. When asked about botting, they said its against the rules. When asked about scamming, they said its against the rules. When asked about gold buying, they said its against the rules. When asked about trading on LFG, they said its a bad idea.

I would say, silence means it’s not against the rules. If it was against the rules, then what do they gain by refusing to say so?

There are some gray areas in regards to what may or may not be acceptable. The examples you gave are fairly clear cut and mentioned in the ToS. Think of it as how they’ve approached usage of 3rd party mods.

Why can’t anet put a disclaimer at the top of lfg that says no selling of any kind allowed if caught/reported doing so can lead to suspensions of your account.

Ayrilana.1396:

Astral Projections.7320:

Ayrilana.1396:

rhapsody.3615:

Killface.1896:

Anet just need to let few GMs monitor LFG at random time each day and use warning or few day ban on that are selling on LFG tool,soon no1 would sell on it and GMs can focus on other problems.

Even in Gaile’s response, she never states that you can’t use LFG for selling. Anet only states that they will not replace your item or good if you are scammed. They will take disciplinary action if there is proof that someone scammed, but the item and gold are still not replaced. Selling via lfg is allowed, whether we like it or not, and Anet holds a “look the other way” mentality with it.

Silence isn’t necessarily a “yes” or a “no”.

When asked about mods, they said its against the rules. When asked about botting, they said its against the rules. When asked about scamming, they said its against the rules. When asked about gold buying, they said its against the rules. When asked about trading on LFG, they said its a bad idea.

I would say, silence means it’s not against the rules. If it was against the rules, then what do they gain by refusing to say so?

There are some gray areas in regards to what may or may not be acceptable. The examples you gave are fairly clear cut and mentioned in the ToS. Think of it as how they’ve approached usage of 3rd party mods.

Maybe that’s the problem. Perhaps because it’s not mentioned in the TOS and therefore it’s not a reportable and punishable offense until it is (can’t suspend someone unless it says so in the TOS).

The suspension punishments ramp up for repeated offenses until someone gets banned. If they suspend someone for an appreciable amount of time or ban someone and it’s not against TOS, this might cause legal problems for them.

I want to throw out something else that indicates this is not a reportable offense.

I seen plenty of threads where someone is protesting being forced to change a character name. Threads where people protest suspensions for a second (or third) bad character name. Suspensions for bad language are protested. Botting bans are protested. Yet I’ve not seen a single thread or post where someone protests a suspension based on LFG.

If people are getting suspensions for something they thought was a legit way to sell items, I guarantee some of them would post.

In this case I would argue, evidence of absence (of posts) is evidence of proof (that this is not a reportable offense.

So let’s say I create a PSA thread stating that players are able to advertise trades using the LFG system and will not be punished. A number of people then flood the LFG with advertisements to buy or sell various items. What do you think would happen in response to my posting or the result of the players actions?

It’s pretty ridiculous that this game doesn’t offer player trading that doesn’t involve the trading post. You would think a game as beautiful and advanced as this would have such a simple feature.

+ 1 Disappointed

Jelzouki.4128:

It’s pretty ridiculous that this game doesn’t offer player trading that doesn’t involve the trading post. You would think a game as beautiful and advanced as this would have such a simple feature.

+ 1 Disappointed

A separate channel could be added specifically for that with a statement that players trade at their own risk.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Selling items using the LFG Tool is a very bad idea. The tool was not intended for that purpose, and those who use it are not protected from scams, rip-offs, and general heartbreak.

You should never, ever, ever use the LFG tool for trades.

Whether it’s the two-copper piece of junk or the legendary of your dreams, please sell it through the safe, secure, and intended methods offered within the game.

Following this same logic people shouldn’t buy or sell dungeons because it falls in the same category as possible to be scammed.

Ayrilana.1396:

Jelzouki.4128:

It’s pretty ridiculous that this game doesn’t offer player trading that doesn’t involve the trading post. You would think a game as beautiful and advanced as this would have such a simple feature.

+ 1 Disappointed

A separate channel could be added specifically for that with a statement that players trade at their own risk.

Agreed. If ANet doesn’t wish to make this reportable, then add a LTS tab and put on it that if they get scammed, then the scammer will get suspended/banned but they will not get their gold or items back. In Big Red Letters.

KarlaGrey.5903:

How can people get scammed when they can always look up prices on the actual TP beforehand if they wish to use the lfg venue to sell/buy items..?

Are you freakin’ serious?

Exactly how can a seller be sure they get their gold?
How can a buyer be sure they will get the goods?

If either goes wrong, Anet gets contacted and has to waste time hunting down the bad guy and banning them (note they will NOT refund any money or items on a deal gone bad).

Everything above is irrelevant when BLTP is used for transaction.

Whether you like it or not, the solution is already in the game.

I do agree that a clear policy on the use of the LFG tool for buying and selling needs to be stated in the LFG tool window.

I’ve often wondered why the in game mail system doesn’t have a COD (cash on delivery) feature. Granted I understand the rationale for having the Black Market fees since they’re another money sink to remove currency (gold) from the economy.

Still, a feature such as this if implemented in a meaningful way – like available once per (insert reasonable number of uses within a given time frame – once per x hour period, x number of times / day) – wouldn’t necessarily trivialize the Black Lion fees. And it would offer an alternate, safe secure way to trade high value items with other players.

I have been reporting every LTS or WTB post on there. I use the LFG abuse, i figure it is an abuse to the system. I would say just start banning for it, maybe nothing crazy give a warning then 24 hour ban. I do not think there should be a message in the LFG window that states they could be banned for using the system for trading. That would just cause clutter, no need for that.

Brother Grimm.5176:

KarlaGrey.5903:

How can people get scammed when they can always look up prices on the actual TP beforehand if they wish to use the lfg venue to sell/buy items..?

Are you freakin’ serious?

Exactly how can a seller be sure they get their gold?
How can a buyer be sure they will get the goods?

If either goes wrong, Anet gets contacted and has to waste time hunting down the bad guy and banning them (note they will NOT refund any money or items on a deal gone bad).

Everything above is irrelevant when BLTP is used for transaction.

Whether you like it or not, the solution is already in the game.

I do agree that a clear policy on the use of the LFG tool for buying and selling needs to be stated in the LFG tool window.

KarlaGrey hasn’t played (by his admission) in a long time and also admitted he posts to do forum PvP. Since he hasn’t played in so long, then he only knows what he reads on the forum and what he remembers from way back when.

Ayrilana.1396:

So let’s say I create a PSA thread stating that players are able to advertise trades using the LFG system and will not be punished. A number of people then flood the LFG with advertisements to buy or sell various items. What do you think would happen in response to my posting or the result of the players actions?

I think if the lfg tool became flooded with selling posts, Anet would have to react. At this time, I never see more than one or two trying to sell expensive items like precursors (admittedly I only look at the lfg if I’m posting a dungeon).

Brother Grimm.5176:

I do agree that a clear policy on the use of the LFG tool for buying and selling needs to be stated in the LFG tool window.

Zypher mentioned that writing this in LFG would cause clutter… what about adding a separate report function as “LFG item trade advertising” or something to that effect? This way it’s obvious that it’s against the rules without adding extra text to the usual LFG window.

There’s certainly a difference between selling goods and selling services. The TP is the one and only solution for selling goods in game. If players started subverting the TP fee’s then JS would have to come place the Nerf Hammer down on in game rewards. The economic divide between players would increase too.

For selling services, that should be fine to post in the proper LFG channel. It’s always a risk involved as there are no formal contracts made up between players. Whenever portaling, I’m simply paying it forward and helping my fellow player. If I get any tips, then I’m happy for whatever I’ve received.

Of course, getting rid of the TP would include the bonus of getting rid of Evon. That’s sounds so very tempting now ……

I would never buy from another person with the LFG.

That being said, there is no official rule saying people can’t use LFG to sell things.

Unless Anet make it official, people will keep doing it.

I guess at this point I’m wondering what the report abuse option on the LFG tool is for. If it is okay to use it to sell items, post guild recruiting messages, or post just about anything else one can think of not related to trying to find a group for game play, then what is considered LFG abuse? Unless it just means someone posting obscene messages or what not. Maybe Anet can define what LFG abuse is.

Perhaps when it comes to dealing with LFG grey areas Anet’s resources are tied up with other in game abuse issues and they don’t want to deal with it?

JustTrogdor.7892:

I guess at this point I’m wondering what the report abuse option on the LFG tool is for. If it is okay to use it to sell items, post guild recruiting messages, or post just about anything else one can think of not related to trying to find a group for game play, then what is considered LFG abuse? Unless it just means someone posting obscene messages or what not. Maybe Anet can define what LFG abuse is.

Perhaps when it comes to dealing with LFG grey areas Anet’s resources are tied up with other in game abuse issues and they don’t want to deal with it?

I read somewhere that it can be (as you said) obscene/indecent/racist etc messages. I’ve also heard that it’s the “go-to” report for being kicked from a dungeon party for an invalid/unfair reason, especially towards the end of a dungeon (some dungeon sellers fill their groups with unknowing PUGs and kick them before the end-boss to fill with paying customers).

I’m fairly sure these come under “LFG abuse”, but like you said, it would be good to have a comprehensive list of all reportable infractions.

On a completely different note, something in my mind is saying that Anet has to be somewhat careful with the rules/guidelines they set as it would affect workload of the CS people/moderators.

If they make LFG item selling officially reportable, then the amount of reports for this type of infraction will likely increase, meaning more reports have to be dealt with by the moderators. On the other hand, it’s possible that reducing the amount of LFG item selling would result in fewer “scamming” reports…

I don’t believe this is nearly the issue its being made out to be, particularly given one critical thing I’m not seeing anybody point out.

That critical thing is the inconvenience of it. Nobody in their right mind is going to start trying to sell their stupid pile of 11 copper or 3 darksteel ingots via this method because its bloody inconvenient.

I’d predict that the only people that’ll make regular habit of trying to sell things via LFG will be selling very high-price items that they either don’t want to pay a listing and sales fee for or that they want to try to scam somebody with.

Between the ease of scamming and the general inconvenience to not just a seller, but also to a potential buyer? I don’t see this method becoming all that remarkably relevant outside quick-and-dirty little pawn or scam attempts with precursors, legendaries, infinite use saleables and extremely expensive skins.

Even there, the buyer is essentially doing the seller a massive favor by allowing the seller to skip the TP fees. In return, such buyers will open themselves up to very easily being scammed.

I see this policing itself very effectively. What they should do is neither forbid nor condone it, but make their position clear on that anything traded by such shady means won’t be given any special priority by customer service.

If you get yourself scammed out of a ridiculous amount of money or your item, cry it up sadcat, nobody cares, you tried to cut corners and you will have bought and paid for a potentially very expensive life lesson.

To those who want a direct player-to-player, can you state why you want it? Are you just used to having it from other games? Do you object to the market fees? Some other reason? Why is it important to have it?

There may be a few good reasons to have it – but there are many reasons why having it would be bad. First, it undermines the trading post in at least 2 ways. Yes, the TP is a gold sink (and a gold sink that is very important for the game economy). But a more important result is that a direct P2P system makes the TP less useful. Markets and the TP work better when they are competitive (so in general, the more people buying and selling, the better). Basically everything you’ve learned about supply and demand is based on something called perfect competition. So the more people buying and selling things, the closer the price is to what both buyers are willing to pay and what sellers are willing to sell for. Someone above mentioned that people using a direct sales system could figure out a fair price (not get scammed on price) by looking at the TP – but the fewer people using the TP the more likely that price won’t reflect a “fair” price.
(To any real economist, I know I’m vastly simplifying this. Trying not to get too bogged down in details.)

Julian.3791:

You are still just selling something in-game over lfg.

When you sell/buy an item, you are looking for a group to talk about selling/buying item.

That is similar to selling a dungeon port to me.

It’s not.