Should? There should be games where max gear is very difficult to obtain and which have an endless, ever-increasing power-creep for those that want to play such games.
There should also be games where max gear is relatively easy to get and there is no power creep for those that want to play such games.
One MMOG cannot serve both sets of customers. GW2 was supposed to serve the latter. There are literally scores of MMOGs that serve the former.
I wouldn’t be upset if there were ANY that served the latter. There aren’t.
I mean that honestly, because I can’t think of one.
of course there should , its been a long held tradition of MMO’s that time invested = win. hence the jobless man is king in the online world.
now these unemployed folk or students or kids etc , who have limitless time to throw at a game demand recornition for their sacrifice ! we should bow down before our online overlords.
but rejoice as we can afford cars and stuff while the best they can achieve is to flip a burger for me and the wife when i take the kids out for take-away.
( i,m being cynical yes, but to make the point that other than the extreme version above , it is pointless to gate things and reward extreme play types)
If you want to have vertical gear progression in your game, then no.
If you want to have horizontal gear progression in your game, then yes.
Personally, the only thing I love working for is cosmetics(titles and skins), and as long as my gear is not maxed out, I am unable to indulge in that passion. Hunting for such “useless” things as skins is a waste of time if you could work towards having a ring that gives you +1 dmg.
Gearing up and leveling is a chore I endure to get to the fun stuff. I don’t feel more powerful the more trait points or poweful gear I earn. I feel less weak. I feel like I’m getting closer to the point of being able to allow myself the freedom to chase useless but beautiful cosmetics, or waste my money buying consumables to work on a food title.
It’s the reason they were introduced. I despise number progression, but I can tolerate it if it is short and has a static endpoint. Ascended gear and infusions work directly against my desire to finish gearing up quickly.
My dream MMO is one which lets me instantly create any number of max-level, max gear toons at the click of a button so I can actually focus on the fun part of the experience.
so, exactly like the original Guild Wars.
(I miss it too, and I got burnt out on it 3 years ago!)
No. Max set gear should be a goal to achieve. It should be based on the amount of work one is willing to put in….
I loved Epics in EQ… I worked hard to get my Singing Short Sword. I felt proud after I got it. I can still tell stories to this day about friends I made and things I did while working on it.
I understand that I am not entitled to anymore then what I, as a player, can do with my own two hands. I know that I may not be the best most UBER player. However, I also know that I will never give up, and I will do MY best even if I fail. And no one can take that from me…
..so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn’t stop to think if they should
No. Max set gear should be a goal to achieve. It should be based on the amount of work one is willing to put in….
I know it’s silly to keep comparing GW2 to GW1, but I will. Because the truth is, GW2 was so successful because it had a built-in loyal customer base from the original.
In GW1, you could get max stat gear at any level (there was no restriction), and you could do it for free by turning in drops to collectors, or you could buy a set for very very cheap. If you couldn’t afford max armor, you were doing something VERY wrong.
The interesting and elite skins DID take the kind of investment you’re talking about. But the stats were the same. That made me and my entire guild full of armor junkies very happy for years on end.
So if you’re wondering why people are upset, that’s why.
The problem with ascended items is that people now feel they have to endlessly grind one thing just to get back to the exact place they comfortably sat (max stats) a week ago. I don’t think asking if max stat gear should be easy to get is even the right question. Just making multiple avenues for gaining ascended gear like crafting, gold, karma, etc, instead of indefinite FotM grinding would go a LONG way towards placating the pissed-off masses as opposed to just making it easier.
Easy top equipment for stats should the thing that differs ths game from other mmorpg…
And it was before introducing korean grinding to the game….
P.S: the problem is not the future, its the present….look at tier 6 mats price…..look at infusions recipes….
Its far worse than you think…..
GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
No. Max set gear should be a goal to achieve. It should be based on the amount of work one is willing to put in….
I loved Epics in EQ… I worked hard to get my Singing Short Sword. I felt proud after I got it. I can still tell stories to this day about friends I made and things I did while working on it.
I understand that I am not entitled to anymore then what I, as a player, can do with my own two hands. I know that I may not be the best most UBER player. However, I also know that I will never give up, and I will do MY best even if I fail. And no one can take that from me…
The real question is… would that Singing Short Sword be less rewarding if it had the same stats as the one before it?
Some people say yes – prestige isn’t prestige without increased character power.
Some people say no – prestige is prestige, and doesn’t require increased character power.
The problem is… you can’t have both methods for the same content. Either there is a plateau, or there isn’t.
No. Max set gear should be a goal to achieve. It should be based on the amount of work one is willing to put in….
Even the phrasing is wrong here, as a game shouldn’t ever be considered work. I wouldn’t care if better gear had an effect on PvE only, especially instances. But it also gives an advantage to people in WvW, not because they’re better, but because they have more time. This punishes people for having a job, a family and so on.
I don’t think asking if max stat gear should be easy to get is even the right question.
May I direct to you multiple posts in this thread detailing why they hate long term gear progression? It is the right question to ask, it’s a much more fundamental question than assuming the majority of the player base would be okay if there were more ways to acquire ascended gear.
Adding new ways to get the gear is super easy and won’t upset a large portion of the players. Satisfying players that bought GW2 to escape a mechanic the developers have just added days ago is impossible. Not without removing it entirely.
Yes, try gearing up alts or even multiple builds on your main in max stat gear and we’ll talk.
Making it an insane grind just to gear ONE main char for ONE build is just causing players to be bored and forced to always play the same thing the same way. No room for build change, no room for alts. No room to vary your play style. This way resides boringness.
There should be multiple ways to achieve gear with the max stats imo. That’s called playing the game your way and that was GW2 original starting point and how they marketed the game. A level playing field for everyone means the game is then about skill, learning to play the character etc. Unfortunately ANet has turned the game on it’s head and it’s now about chasing gear stats with elitist attitude required just by the Fractals design of scaling the group to the lowest Fractal level player.
It doesn’t have to be super easy or instant like it was in GW1. I’d say obtaining exotics was a pretty good balance. I can even handle the difficulty of obtaining ascended items, the only thing that currently bothers me about it is that you can’t gain all of them through individual effort like you could exotics. The rings are apparently only obtainable through the dungeon and many materials for the infusions seem to originate from there as well.
They did mention that ascended items would eventually become available through other means so I guess that will make it better.
The problem with easily obtained max stat gear is that once people obtain it shortly after hitting level 80 they complain that there is no endgame content and nothing to do. Then they leave.
Yes it should. People are now getting turned down from group for not having full exotic gear.
No they are not.
Stop making stuff up.
No one can even see your gear, there is no inspect method.
And on top of that, exotics are ridiculously easy to get.
In a dungeon however, no one will notice you’re wearing a bunch of 5 silver level 80 Rares.
5 silver level 80 rares? Proof positive we aren’t playing the same game. Or, as you say, stop making stuff up.
People can look for common level 80 exotic weapon and armor skins. They can ask you to link your gear. Yeah, you can fake that. But most people wouldn’t know how and in any case that requires some preparation. And beyond that, it actually requires lying which some people in this world are still hesitant to do.
So how again are you sure people without exotics are not turned down?
The problem with easily obtained max stat gear is that once people obtain it shortly after hitting level 80 they complain that there is no endgame content and nothing to do. Then they leave.
The problem with fantasy games is that when people log in to them, they say “I hate fantasy games.” Then they leave. The obvious solution is to make GW2 resemble a modern-day FPS shooter.
No. Max set gear should be a goal to achieve. It should be based on the amount of work one is willing to put in….
Even the phrasing is wrong here, as a game shouldn’t ever be considered work. I wouldn’t care if better gear had an effect on PvE only, especially instances. But it also gives an advantage to people in WvW, not because they’re better, but because they have more time. This punishes people for having a job, a family and so on.
Pretty sure this thread asked for peoples opinions even if the opinions differ from yours.
Yes, it should – because quite frankly, I don’t see any viable reason why i shouldn’t. I just don’t get why people would want to have to grind for something which enables them to enjoy all the content a game has to offer without feeling handycapped. There’s a reason GW1 was the only “MMORPG” I played for more than 2 days prior to GW2…
I just like being completely flexible in what I want to do and when I want to do it. Heck, I wouldn’t mind it if we abandoned lvls completey…Frankly, the only use I see in this is “seeing a tangible ‘reward’ for an increase in skill (i.e. learning to play and thereby having access to a wider range of abilities)” – but I really wouldn’t need 80 levels for this, nor do I need any further increase in numbers past this.
Gear needed to participate in endgame content on equal footing should be easy to obtain. The difficulty/price should determine the look of that gear. You can spend 5g and look like garbage or you can spend 50g and look like a real hero and be just as effective in both situations. The main determining factor should be your skill.
The look should be the only difference and there are plenty of people who will strive for it. For example, I spent 10g on two Moonshanks because I love the way they look. I could’ve gotten some cheap daggers off the TP for 1-2g each but I don’t really like how most daggers look in the game and I don’t mind spending gold to get a look I’ll be happy with.
This is where ArenaNet has made a mistake, in my opinion. Cosmetic progression is just as strong of a driving force as vertical gear progression. Gear progression is basically cosmetic progression anyway since all future content is designed around the stronger gear, so the outcome is still the same. You don’t really become stronger, just see bigger numbers on the screen.
No it should be some what hard to get the “best” of any thing it gives games longer life and give a human a achievement to work for being every one is looking for the next best thing that just a human behavior. This is not just for GW2 its for every new game there is something to work for that is not easy if one wants to be or get the “best” of any thing.
Its a lot like real life and in some ways teaching you good life lessons (nothing going to get handed to you and you MUST work for the good things in life).
Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA
No it should be some what hard to get the “best” of any thing it gives games longer life and give a human a achievement to work for being every one is looking for the next best thing that just a human behavior. This is not just for GW2 its for every new game there is something to work for that is not easy if one wants to be or get the “best” of any thing.
Its a lot like real life and in some ways teaching you good life lessons (nothing going to get handed to you and you MUST work for the good things in life).
I’m not looking for “the next best thing”, so does that mean I am not human?
No. Max set gear should be a goal to achieve. It should be based on the amount of work one is willing to put in….
Even the phrasing is wrong here, as a game shouldn’t ever be considered work. I wouldn’t care if better gear had an effect on PvE only, especially instances. But it also gives an advantage to people in WvW, not because they’re better, but because they have more time. This punishes people for having a job, a family and so on.
WvWvW will never EVER be balanced. It is a zerg fest… and if you think a minor stat increase will effect that you are wrong. 50 people hitting you is still 50 people hitting you…. your dead no matter what.
I have a full time job, school part time, kids and their hobbies… I still have time to play.. and I am not complaining about the recent changes. So how is it unfair to me?
..so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn’t stop to think if they should
No it should be some what hard to get the “best” of any thing it gives games longer life and give a human a achievement to work for being every one is looking for the next best thing that just a human behavior. This is not just for GW2 its for every new game there is something to work for that is not easy if one wants to be or get the “best” of any thing.
Its a lot like real life and in some ways teaching you good life lessons (nothing going to get handed to you and you MUST work for the good things in life).
I’m not looking for “the next best thing”, so does that mean I am not human?
You are in one way or another even talking about this show your looking for the next best thing.
Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA
No it should be some what hard to get the “best” of any thing it gives games longer life and give a human a achievement to work for being every one is looking for the next best thing that just a human behavior. This is not just for GW2 its for every new game there is something to work for that is not easy if one wants to be or get the “best” of any thing.
Its a lot like real life and in some ways teaching you good life lessons (nothing going to get handed to you and you MUST work for the good things in life).
I’m not looking for “the next best thing”, so does that mean I am not human?
You are in one way or another even talking about this show your looking for the next best thing.
That doesn’t really make any sense.
I don’t want “the next best thing”. I want to get on a level playing field and then beat the ever-loving snot out of my enemy. I don’t want to ever worry about gear again.
I don’t jump from game to game consuming the content and then looking for “the next best thing”. Instead, I find a game I like and I invest years of time and thousands of dollars into playing it and having a good time.
This entire mindset of always looking for the next best thing seems unstable, and possible unnatural to me. What is it in your life that is missing? What are you really searching for?
Are video games for entertainment, or psychological satisfaction of some real or perceived inadequacy?
No it should be some what hard to get the “best” of any thing it gives games longer life and give a human a achievement to work for being every one is looking for the next best thing that just a human behavior. This is not just for GW2 its for every new game there is something to work for that is not easy if one wants to be or get the “best” of any thing.
Its a lot like real life and in some ways teaching you good life lessons (nothing going to get handed to you and you MUST work for the good things in life).
“Next best thing” is very subjective. Your “next best thing” is not my “next best thing.”
No it should be some what hard to get the “best” of any thing it gives games longer life and give a human a achievement to work for being every one is looking for the next best thing that just a human behavior. This is not just for GW2 its for every new game there is something to work for that is not easy if one wants to be or get the “best” of any thing.
Its a lot like real life and in some ways teaching you good life lessons (nothing going to get handed to you and you MUST work for the good things in life).
“Next best thing” is very subjective. Your “next best thing” is not my “next best thing.”
True but your looking for it non the less. To make a game that just hands you every thing will be dead with in a month that why there are no more games like that other then the 6hr story games and even they have some build in “work for something.”
Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA
The problem with easily obtained max stat gear is that once people obtain it shortly after hitting level 80 they complain that there is no endgame content and nothing to do. Then they leave.
GW1 had a very loyal fanbase for years and years with the “easily obtained max stat gear.” You had the freedom to get different armors for different builds/purposes.
My main toon was a monk, and I had armors specifically kitted out for pve healing, healing/protection, protection, smiting, 2 different kinds of solo farming, pvp healing, pvp protection, etc.
GW2 says, put all your effort into getting one set of max armor if you can. After you’re broke or totally burnt out on zerging all over the world, then we’ll introduce another level.
Yes, max level armor stats. Should be easy as heck to get. Because of the differnt types of builds and skills you could get +healing, +condition, +might +What ever…but once you had it, you could change your play style around them, and if you decided, wow that +healing set looks awesome, I’ll try for that. It doesn’t do more, it just looks different. That was the game Guild Wars was built around and it was great..this new stuff, well I’m done and they already lost this player.
The problem with easily obtained max stat gear is that once people obtain it shortly after hitting level 80 they complain that there is no endgame content and nothing to do. Then they leave.
This is a false dilemma. People were not complaining that they ran out of gear to collect. They were complaining that they ran out of things to do.
Guild Wars 2 shipped with 25 Explorable Zones on the overworld.
Go count up how many of those zones are made for level 80 characters. Not level 70-80, not 75-80. For level 80 characters.
In fact, don’t go count: There was one. There was one Explorable Zone made for level 80 characters.
(Dungeons fared a little better – ten of the thirty-three original dungeon paths are at level 80. But not everybody is going to like dungeons, nor should they be expected to.)
If people were leaving because they had nothing to do, it is a tremendous leap of logic to interpret that as them leaving because they had no stronger gear to acquire.
Exotics offer a good balance as it is, I’d say. For some it takes a bit of effort, but you easily see it paying off quickly. And it gets the job done.
GW1, I dare say, worked quite well, on the basis of players working hard for better looks, as well as building our alts. At the same time this ensures casuals can play at the same level.
What rewards then for the player with time to burn: Well, primarily aesthetics. But also one could think of exclusive, though impractical items. Assuming the balance can be protected. Think of Morrowind’s Boots of Blinding Speed – that’s awesome. Or even the good old dragon armor sets which make you highly resistant to fire (while leaving you vulnerable to anything else, thus making it nearly useless for actual use). Add a suitable skin and you get something worth looking for. Yes, humans want better items to work for. However, better isn’t just a matter of practical worth. Which is why kings liked spending fortunes on weaponry that couldn’t even really be used in battle :P.
*Addition: about those players leaving once they hit max: too bad. Can’t please them all. Same for those who wish to buy the good stuff from the cash shop. Stick to the GW philosophy, that’s where you have your fanbase.
Before we even consider Ascended gear, realize that stuff is not in the standard “hierarchy” of the game and in most cases . . . isn’t going to come into play.
After setting that aside, now stop and look at “maximum gear” and . . . I believe it is possible to craft Exotics from 400-level crafting. You’re going to need the materials, but those aren’t a massive hurdle to overcome. See, best method? Jewelcrafting. All you need is Copper/Silver/Gold ingots and the gems you get while mining or from other drops . . . and no other purchased items. Pure profit if you’re into mining every ore node you see.
(And you should anyway. Mine every ore, chop every tree, and gather each herb you see. Especially Omnomberries, some people will pay dearly for large quantities.)
Maximum statistic gear is available “easily”, in so far as “I don’t need to grind dungeons or do events with chests over and over”. It’s not like GW1, but it’s not like chasing those minmaxed scores from earlier games . . . and it’s definitely not as hard as it is in your average RPG.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Yes. As mentioned in the marketing literature, GW2 takes all that is good from GW1. In GW1 it was easy to get the best gear in the game because GW1 was not a grindy game and Anet doesn’t make grindy games. (Haha.) So, the same should be true of GW2.
Well now that’s the interesting thing… They actually increased the crafting requirements of exotics (at least in terms of globs of ectoplasm for a bunch of recipes) where they should be cheaper; same with the cost of dungeon exotics. They should also make the fractal area not so rigidly structured in how you gain access to higher levels.
Nonetheless, this dungeon and new tier of gear still invalidates some of the effort and money folks put into their toons based on the premise, which seemed and certainly gave the appearance of being fact, that exotic was the limit. Had folks known there was a potential of their gear not being the best within a few months, I’m sure BLTC sales would’ve looked rather different.
No it should be some what hard to get the “best” of any thing it gives games longer life and give a human a achievement to work for being every one is looking for the next best thing that just a human behavior. This is not just for GW2 its for every new game there is something to work for that is not easy if one wants to be or get the “best” of any thing.
Its a lot like real life and in some ways teaching you good life lessons (nothing going to get handed to you and you MUST work for the good things in life).
“Next best thing” is very subjective. Your “next best thing” is not my “next best thing.”
True but your looking for it non the less. To make a game that just hands you every thing will be dead with in a month that why there are no more games like that other then the 6hr story games and even they have some build in “work for something.”
The game doesn’t hand you every thing. The game was originally designed with players setting their own goals. Sure, you can get some cheap exotics at 1-2g a piece, if you don’t mind looking like trash. You always had an option to set your own goal for a more expensive and better looking weapon and armor.
All ascended gear did was add a direction, mostly for people who are too used to being told by the game what to strive for and couldn’t figure out what to do in a game that didn’t hold their hand. ANet added those heart tasks for the same reason. People would leave town and get confused without the game telling them what to do and where to go.
The goals were always there but whereas before people had to figure things out on their own, now there is a clear direction to follow.
Yes. As mentioned in the marketing literature, GW2 takes all that is good from GW1. In GW1 it was easy to get the best gear in the game because GW1 was not a grindy game and Anet doesn’t make grindy games. (Haha.) So, the same should be true of GW2.
Whomever said GW1 had no grind in it didn’t want Obsidian Armor, or the Treasure Hunter title.
No they weren’t required to progress, and they had barely any effect on the game play. (I think Treasure Hunter affected Lockpick break chance, but in HM it could only approach 50% chance to retain.)
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Yes. As mentioned in the marketing literature, GW2 takes all that is good from GW1. In GW1 it was easy to get the best gear in the game because GW1 was not a grindy game and Anet doesn’t make grindy games. (Haha.) So, the same should be true of GW2.
Whomever said GW1 had no grind in it didn’t want Obsidian Armor, or the Treasure Hunter title.
No they weren’t required to progress, and they had barely any effect on the game play. (I think Treasure Hunter affected Lockpick break chance, but in HM it could only approach 50% chance to retain.)
Obsidian armor was optional. It didn’t have better stats and was basically a status symbol. Sort of like legendaries are in GW2. Ascended gear and the grind that goes with it are going to become mandatory pretty fast.
Right now, with only 3 slots having ascended items, it’s no big deal. But when the rest of the slots get ascended items, the combined stat boost will pretty much guarantee the necessity of having ascended gear in order to remain relevant in dungeons and WvW.
Ehhh, no, I don’t think so. It may look like it . . . and some people who are busy selling off that kind of gear? They’ll gladly tell you the only way to be “as cool as me” is to put hundreds of hours of work and shovel in thousands of gold to have a chance at reaching their greatness.
Get a tight-knit group. Get an organized guild(s) together. Think before you go rushing into something, and study your failures rather than throwing bigger numbers at it. Sure, it might work . . . until you need to do it again.
And if all else fails? Let the elitists have their fun, and post an open guild for people who share your mindset. They’re out there, and they’re likely in your time zone and availability.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
And if all else fails? Let the elitists have their fun, and post an open guild for people who share your mindset. They’re out there, and they’re likely in your time zone and availability.
Ignoring the issue is not going to make it go away. Especially when future game content is bound to be balanced around these elitists with their ascended gear.
Like I said before, we’re only at the beginning and it’s easy to ignore 3 slots right now. However, when people are running around with full ascended sets and weapons and all dungeons are designed with some cheap gating mechanics, like this agony thing, then it’ll be too late to say anything. I’ve seen it before.
Yes. As mentioned in the marketing literature, GW2 takes all that is good from GW1. In GW1 it was easy to get the best gear in the game because GW1 was not a grindy game and Anet doesn’t make grindy games. (Haha.) So, the same should be true of GW2.
Whomever said GW1 had no grind in it didn’t want Obsidian Armor, or the Treasure Hunter title.
No they weren’t required to progress, and they had barely any effect on the game play. (I think Treasure Hunter affected Lockpick break chance, but in HM it could only approach 50% chance to retain.)
Obsidian armor was optional. It didn’t have better stats and was basically a status symbol. Sort of like legendaries are in GW2. Ascended gear and the grind that goes with it are going to become mandatory pretty fast.
Right now, with only 3 slots having ascended items, it’s no big deal. But when the rest of the slots get ascended items, the combined stat boost will pretty much guarantee the necessity of having ascended gear in order to remain relevant in dungeons and WvW.
Based on…. ???
As far as I can tell nothing has been scaled to factor in Ascended gear.
Yes, I suppose fractals with agony ratings do factor in Ascended gear, but more for the agony res than the +stats. Also, by it’s nature of being an endless dungeon, it ramps up difficulty until a certain breaking point so +stats are helpful but I’m gonna go ahead and guess not for very long in fractals.
In terms of WvW, I would ask if someone could produce a good survey of gear folks are wearing in WvW. I bet that while you have a good portion of level 80s in some exotics (if not full exotics), the majority of your base is not lvl 80 and likely has greens/blues…. How many people are we expecting and in what timeframe to get Ascended gear? When does this gear “shift the balance”, when 10% of a server has guys in Ascended gear? 20%? What kind of time will that take? Will the competition in the meantime get more skilled and more geared (in levels, rares, and exotics)? When the Ascended gear becomes available for WvW, how long will it take those folks to get gear via WvW? Does the gear shift the balance any more than what’s currently present with a certain mix of lvl 80s in exotics against lvl 80s and non-lvl 80s in blues/greens?
As far as I can tell, nothing is mandatory. There was no mandatory need to get exotics or to level 80 before Ascended gear, yet somehow Ascended gear has somehow changed this point.
True but your looking for it non the less. To make a game that just hands you every thing will be dead with in a month that why there are no more games like that other then the 6hr story games and even they have some build in “work for something.”
I played a game for 8 years that didn’t subscribe to this mentality. When I maxed out a character, got the build to where I wanted it, that character was done. I then went and did other things. Like, for example, making a new character (I had 36 of them by the time it was all over). I also built a guild, I designed in-game spaces, I PvPed, I played the market, collected titles, wrote content, and roleplayed.
In 8 years, my main was “upgraded” twice, and those weren’t even entirely vertical upgrades.
The mentality you’re describing just isn’t universal.
