Guild Wars 2

I ran my S/S & LB warrior with sinister armor weapons and trinkets and aristocracy runes.

I now run my S/T & LB berserker with vipers armor and weapons and sinister trinkets runes still aristocracy.

Sigils are malice and strength… before they were corruption and strength, problem is I ten to get ganked by snipers losing my stacks while fighting too often IMHO and it was just more logical to add a +10%

Understand you can get might from FGJ, Sigil of strength, And signet of rage, fire aura, firefields and blast…. I normally run banner of strength (blast finisher *2, +170 power/condition dmg, regen if traited) making runes of aristocracy usefull for solo play…

For group play however… going 100% duration and adding a sigil of blight and torment could work…. I do not know… I try to be reasonably self sufficient.

My berserker has now 93 % bleeding and 80 % burning duration with food and utillity….
This is 30 + % base (viper& sigil) + 20 % burning and + 33 % bleeding from traits and + 30 % from food and utility… (and comparable to my old situation)
I’d obviously prefer 100 and 100, but to do so I need to replace sigil of strength with sigil of smoldering ( + 20 % burning) or get more vipers…. both have advantages, and I’m used to playing my build relatively solo

I think it works out quite well.. and yes viper’s seems to be way more powerfull… My Yassith’s armor and weapons are nice. now waiting for the amulet, rings and trinkets

oh thank you for thinking about what ive been too lazy to hash out, much appreciated. kinda figured this would be the case when i realized a viper set would have at least 30% duration.

For PvE I don’t think there’s any question that Viper is better (what else is the extra stat for?). PvP however is more dubious, because damaging conditions are usually plenty lethal if not cleansed; and if they are then the extra duration is wasted.

And yes I realise this is about PvE since it talks about stats on armour, just sayin’.

I wouldn’t be particularly surprised if mobs in raids start cleansing conditions though.

well original calculations say 579 expertise 38.6% condition duration based upon exotic armor/weapon/trinkets
this should be 609 for an ascended armor 40.6% condition duration based upon exotic armor/weapon/trinkets. 1 problem though: I haven’t seen the trinkets (yet)

40% from gear, 10 from malice , 10 from toxic tuning, 20 from pizza: 80% base…. you’ll only need 20% from runes or traits

(instanly filling it for warrior, for max bleeding you will not need malice and you could try bursting), same should be the case for many other builds…..

Sounds like the go to gear for glass condi builds. I must haves it

Are there ascended recipes out for viper? And does legendary weps have all the latest stat options, such as viper?

Yes there are.

Viper’s stats seems to be very good on berserker warriors.

RBA: I don’t entirely agree with your conclusions (see below). I do, however, completely love the way in which you presented your analysis. The explanations are both witty and true; the math is explained as if that’s easy to do. Well done.

My asterisk for your tl;dr is that it depends on the type of fight you have. Viper’s benefits depend on duration; if your opponents die quickly or remove conditions easily, then the improved intensity of sinister stats will matter more. At the moment, PvE fights do seem to last longer, but I think that might be temporary — at game launch, fights in Orr tended to last longer; at introduction, southsun beasties were hard to take down…and it wasn’t long until we figured out easier ways to combat those types of foes.

That said, you’ve definitely shown that viper’s stats are, at the very least, a competitive choice, i.e. if you’re outfitting a character for the first time, you won’t go wrong with this new prefix and there are plenty of circumstances in which they are a superior choice.

tl;dr great post, thanks.

It feels like Sinister does more damage if the fight is short, but Vipers does more damage overall, if the fight lasts longer than your conditions. Considering the new HoT mobs are quite tanky, and theres more than a few champions and legendary mobs running around, Vipers will definitely be better for PvE.

Better than Sinister and easier to get?! Im going for it. Ill probably give a set to my Thief or Elementalist.

Technically, there’s a certain “region” where sinister is better. I’m going to divide up the time of any fight into 3 phases:

#1: Starting Phase. This is the period where you are first bursting out your conditions. If the enemy dies here, then the enemy has died before you can do any real condition damage. Viper has an advantage here, due to greater effective power.
#2: Pre-Threshold. This is the point where you’ve dumped a load of conditions all over the enemy, but they haven’t really had time to tick away too much. In this period, when condition damage overtakes direct damage, sinister will be better.
#3: Post-Threshold. Here, your stacks are fully realized and you’ve entered into something resembling a full rotation. Once the stacks have been realized, Viper begins to pull ahead very quickly.

This phase will be class specific, but it will occur right around the time when you’ve earned a number of extra ticks equal to the the intensity advantage multiplied by the average sustained stacks of a condition. So, for example, bleed has a 12.5% intensity advantage, so if you sustain 20 bleeds, Viper will beat Sinister once you’ve gained an additional total of 2.5 ticks of bleeds. This isn’t “2.5 seconds at maximum stacks”, btw. That is 2.5 ticks of any bleed you inflict, including the first one.

So, for a more “real class” example, a necromancer will sustain 10.125 stacks of bleeding just auto attacking with scepter, Lingering Curses trait included. Grasping Dead adds 5.4 more stacks. Enfeebling Blood, 0.96 more stacks, totaling to 16.485 stacks (rounding to 16.5). This is 2.06 ticks of additional bleed in Viper, and since the first bleed from the scepter attack would have expired 8.1 seconds into the fight, Viper will beat Sinister at around 9.5 seconds (first bleed gets 1.5 ticks, second inflicted bleed gets 0.5 ticks).

It is a bit wobbly here, since depending on rotation the time at which those “extra ticks” comes can change. For example, if you open with Grasping Dead, you won’t get any extra ticks out of that skill until 18 seconds into the fight, so the threshold becomes around 11 seconds (including the cast time for grasping dead), assuming you auto attack. The rule of thumb is the shorter the duration of the condition, the quicker Viper gains the advantage.

Also this calculation is simple, as it only looked at bleeding. When you get multiple conditions, it gets technical again, since you’ll have one condition’s ticks covering for other ones.

There is another advantage. A sinister “burst” requires a sustained output of conditions. In legacy content this is pretty easy, but many HoT enemies have stealth, evades, and very dangerous counter-attacks. Being forced to chase and disengage buys extra time for viper to tick, thus granting more advantage.

I’m going to recommend a fairly simple philosophy in videogames: prepare for the harder fight. If you are fighting an enemy that will die in 6 seconds of Sinister gear, and you would need 9 seconds to gain an advantage in Vipers., then that enemy isn’t exactly a big deal. In Viper gear that enemy would die in 6.75 seconds – initial direct damage advantage anyway, so it isn’t like you’ve lost much. Combine this with the versatility and leniency of Viper, and I have to take Viper every time.

But to really put this into perspective, the numbers I have listed in the OP are without a rune set, with no might. Add a rune set and might, and you’ll get the following numbers. Sinister’s 2214 vs. Viper’s 2021.

Bleed: 155 vs. 143
Burning: 475 vs. 445
Poison: 166 vs. 155
Confusion: 87, 188 vs. 81, 176
Torment: 116 vs. 107

Intensity Advantages:
Bleed: 8.4%
Burning: 6.7%
Poison: 7.1%
Confusion: 7.4%, 6.8%
Torment: 8.4%

The real determining factors for Sinister is going to be the initial condition duration you have. There are examples where Expertise would be almost completely superfluous. For example, on my revenant’s condi build (full sinister) I have 95% duration for Torment. I don’t exactly need much more. Well… I could always use more, but I can’t get more.

I’ve been doing some math around proc based effects, and I’m not sure there is a class where the procs are so valuable that you would take Sinister over Viper just for them.
Sinister will proc 44% more crits than Viper, 27% under fury. On many builds, that isn’t that important. I.E. on my rev, I have a 33% on crit to proc 4 seconds of torment. On Sinister this is 0.62 torment ticks per hit, but in Viperthis is 0.43 torment ticks per hit. This seems like a lot in reference to each other but when you realize that it is attached to the mace’s initial 4 seconds of torment per hit, you can see that this extra precision really amounts to the difference between 4.62 per hit and 4.43 per hit. This is… about a 4.3% advantage in condition damage coming from procs. 4.1% if under fury. You can go back and do a lot of those calculations (many of which are tricky, because procs are “hit” based, and thus you need to find the average hit rate), but the conclusion you’ll come to is that they don’t matter too much, especially when you realize that condi duration plays a factor in these crit procs, too.

There are a few minor exceptions. Engineer grenades while not under fury will do a fraction more damage (1.38 scaled bleed ticks vs. 1.33 scaled bleed ticks per grenade volley) under sinister. Sharper Images on the memser will do 2.34 scaled bleeds per illusion hit vs. 2.26. These amounts are very tiny, though, and as such they aren’t greater than the advantage gained by the non-crit-proc conditions the class will inflict.

Well… that ended up more rambly than anticipated. I’m not sure how the math is going to work out when I start writing these posts, and sometimes one tangent leads to another and so on.

Viper is better for conditions, Sinister scales better with ferocity.

Ahh, the hidden gear tread mill reveals itself.

Well… I wouldn’t really call it a gear grind. If you have ascended gear, converting sinister to viper is pretty cheap.

The fact is that, as Anet introduces more gear prefixes, there will be some that are better than others for different circumstances. Players will want these, so they’ll go out and play the content to get them. Most of the gear prefixes released, aren’t exactly better than the others. Take Marauder, for example. All it is, is berserker with some valk pieces thrown in.

Viper and Trailblazer are the exceptions. Particularly because they introduce a new type of offensive stat. Expertise is pretty big. Concentration, the other new stat, isn’t as important, since most players already built around permanent fury and might.

+1. I loved this post. I was wandering this for a while, if I should swap my Sinister builds for Viper. Now I only wander by how much extra condition duration (sigil and runes) I want to build.

In some classes mobility is a problem (guardian and a specific build to reaper that have 0 access to swiftness or mobility traits), so it is 10% of rune of traveler and mobility (+15% boon duration) VS 25% of trapper + nightmare and an extra 64 condition damage.

@edit
This is for WvW.

So what about a 50/50 set of sinisters and vipers. I already have a full set of sinisters ascended made for my ranger, and im not overly looking to replace the whole thing as i like the shear amount of damage my bleeds do(Already at 20% extra duration from traits)

You should try to get enough Viper to get your burning and/or bleed to 100% or near it and use sinister after that. But to be honest, it’s not a big deal. We are talking here about min-maxing. You still do decent dps with full sinister.

For a ranger, you can reach 75% Burning duration. So ideally, you would want 25% from Viper or 375 expertise. Your bleed would only be 40%+25% =65%, but more Viper would be wasted because of your burning.

A full armor and weapon of viper would give you 309 or that 375 expertise, which is good enough IMO.

Thaddeus.4891:

You should try to get enough Viper to get your burning and/or bleed to 100% or near it and use sinister after that. But to be honest, it’s not a big deal. We are talking here about min-maxing. You still do decent dps with full sinister.

For a ranger, you can reach 75% Burning duration. So ideally, you would want 25% from Viper or 375 expertise. Your bleed would only be 40%+25% =65%, but more Viper would be wasted because of your burning.

A full armor and weapon of viper would give you 309 or that 375 expertise, which is good enough IMO.

Aw, i dont run burning skills, poison and bleeding for me, mostly shortbow, sword/dagger. Its on odd build i run, but it works quite well, and well nobody in dungeons or fractals has said anything about it yet. Ill go ahead and making a few pieces of Vipers though! Thanks!

FYI if you’ve switched to Viper and wonder why you feel like you are doing less damage it is because expertise is currently broken. It adds time to the tooltips, but not the actual conditions…

Hopefully they fix it soon.

Have you done any analysis on the new runes? There are 3-4 new rune sets that seem interesting for conditions. The two that peaked my interest the most were Runes of the Berzerker and another set whos name I can’t remember from one of the mastery vendors.

With 40% condition duration + 30% from food/utilities that means you are at 70% base duration.

Particularly for necro we get 20% chill and 20% bleed duration. All the condition specific runes give 45% so they are overkill now.

I feel like for long fights the new mastery runes are actually the best. They give 45%(?) poison duration, standard condition damage, and 50 condition damage every time you strike a poisoned foe (lasts 60s 10s CD,)

For a necro that would give me 90% bleed, 90% chill, 100% poison, 70% everything else, I could then take a sigil of malice to boost the last 10% or take bursting for the 6% condition damage.

So, and I’m sorry for this, but I’ve pretty much been avoiding most topics on this. Are you recommending Viper strictly for condi heavy classes (i.e. Necro, maybe Warrior), or are you trying to say that Viper overall is the best stat for any class that has condi (i.e. Guardians have burns). What classes are you recommending Viper for?

I may run Viper on my condi mes, but I don’t know if condi mes would be any good in PvE.
Edit: Maybe even condi Warrior if condi Warrior is viable in PvE.

NaotsuguLH.8915:

So, and I’m sorry for this, but I’ve pretty much been avoiding most topics on this. Are you recommending Viper strictly for condi heavy classes (i.e. Necro, maybe Warrior), or are you trying to say that Viper overall is the best stat for any class that has condi (i.e. Guardians have burns). What classes are you recommending Viper for?

I may run Viper on my condi mes, but I don’t know if condi mes would be any good in PvE.
Edit: Maybe even condi Warrior if condi Warrior is viable in PvE.

Viper is always better than sinister for any condition build as long as you don’t burst the 100% condition duration limit. That limit exclude condition duration from trait for specific weapons like Chemical Rounds.

Condi Mesmer isn’t particular good in PvE. Warrior condi is better than Mesmer, but it still less good than a direct damage warrior. I don’t know if Bezerker elite spec might change that, but I doudt it.

Right now. The only 3 profession that are worth it in condition build are Engineer, Ranger and to a lesser extend guardian. This may change over the next couple of weeks as people test thing out with the new spec.

Thaddeus.4891:

NaotsuguLH.8915:

So, and I’m sorry for this, but I’ve pretty much been avoiding most topics on this. Are you recommending Viper strictly for condi heavy classes (i.e. Necro, maybe Warrior), or are you trying to say that Viper overall is the best stat for any class that has condi (i.e. Guardians have burns). What classes are you recommending Viper for?

I may run Viper on my condi mes, but I don’t know if condi mes would be any good in PvE.
Edit: Maybe even condi Warrior if condi Warrior is viable in PvE.

Viper is always better than sinister for any condition build as long as you don’t burst the 100% condition duration limit. That limit exclude condition duration from trait for specific weapons like Chemical Rounds.

Condi Mesmer isn’t particular good in PvE. Warrior condi is better than Mesmer, but it still less good than a direct damage warrior. I don’t know if Bezerker elite spec might change that, but I doudt it.

Right now. The only 3 profession that are worth it in condition build are Engineer, Ranger and to a lesser extend guardian. This may change over the next couple of weeks as people test thing out with the new spec.

I main my guardian, but I find it hard to believe condi guard would be viable in PvE considering the only condi it really has is Burning. I mean, sure it has blind and immobilize, but, condi damage doesn’t affect those.

NaotsuguLH.8915:

I main my guardian, but I find it hard to believe condi guard would be viable in PvE considering the only condi it really has is Burning. I mean, sure it has blind and immobilize, but, condi damage doesn’t affect those.

Well, it still have decent direct damage with Sinister. That direct damage + burning damage equal to a good amount of DPS. It’s not as good as a zerker guardian in term of dps, but really not far from it.

(24 sec for dps chart)

If you compare their dps between 30 and 60sec

DH Guardian Zerker : 17-16.5k dps
Core Guardian GS Mace/Torch Zerker : 16-15k dps
Condi Core Guardian : 14-15k dps

The DH Guardian kind of screw up the situation. Pre-Hot condi guardian was very near the meta. As the meta change to DH the gap is wider, but we still don’t know the numbers for DH condi. Still. 14-15k dps is pretty good.

UGH!!!!! Are you telling me DH guardian is now Meta? -.- I think I’l quit guardian at this point.

I don’t want to stray off point, but anyway, I noticed you didn’t include Viper reaper. Why is that?

oh man! why did i have to discover this when i been spending time trying to get my sinister trinkets. I like how there’s a new set of armor stats but im also shock that its better than sinister. it can pretty much replace sinister if someone makes a build with full viper and perma fury. i feel like a girl, who cant decide with what guy to go with “im just confused” lol i hate to be the hater but i think they should at least nerf the precision to even things out :P

Dante.1763:

So what about a 50/50 set of sinisters and vipers. I already have a full set of sinisters ascended made for my ranger, and im not overly looking to replace the whole thing as i like the shear amount of damage my bleeds do(Already at 20% extra duration from traits)

From the math I’ve done (the “when does sinister = viper” part), you want to go with Viper’s, period. You need +212% condi duration outside of stats. So, Viper’s until you get to that 100% hard cap.

As for my advice… Ascended Armor/Weapons can have their stats swapped by using a Viper’s Sigil/Insignia in the mystic forge with the anthology of heroes and 5 globs of ectoplasm. Doing this is actually far cheaper than making an exotic set from scratch. The ascended rings can be transferred to another class that wouldn’t need stats as much (such as a rev). But otherwise… yeah.

I’m in the same boat. I salvaged about 4 full sets of sinister gear, then realized that to make the entire viper set four times over I’ll need to spend 1,000 gold.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

FYI if you’ve switched to Viper and wonder why you feel like you are doing less damage it is because expertise is currently broken. It adds time to the tooltips, but not the actual conditions…

Hopefully they fix it soon.

Have you done any analysis on the new runes?

That… is good to know. I haven’t done much analysis on the runes. I went into a big thing about the Chronomancer Runes, and came to the conclusion that they are only optimal if you are a solo Chrono.

NaotsuguLH.8915:

So, and I’m sorry for this, but I’ve pretty much been avoiding most topics on this. Are you recommending Viper strictly for condi heavy classes (i.e. Necro, maybe Warrior), or are you trying to say that Viper overall is the best stat for any class that has condi (i.e. Guardians have burns). What classes are you recommending Viper for?

I may run Viper on my condi mes, but I don’t know if condi mes would be any good in PvE.
Edit: Maybe even condi Warrior if condi Warrior is viable in PvE.

Viper is best if you are making a condi build, and you do not already have capped condition duration. If you are not making a condi build, Viper’s isn’t that good for direct damage only.

Anyone do Viper reaper calcs?

darkaheart.4265:

oh man! why did i have to discover this when i been spending time trying to get my sinister trinkets. I like how there’s a new set of armor stats but im also shock that its better than sinister. it can pretty much replace sinister if someone makes a build with full viper and perma fury. i feel like a girl, who cant decide with what guy to go with “im just confused” lol i hate to be the hater but i think they should at least nerf the precision to even things out :P

Don’t worry. As far as I’ve seen, there are no viper’s ascended trinkets, your sinister trinkets wont go to waste.

Anyways. How does the direct damage side of it compare? Does the extra power of viper’s compensate for the reduced precision?

More than. The “effective power” stat is power scaled up from crits. Sinister is 2317 effective power, Viper is 2401 effective power. This puts Viper as having 3.6% more damage against crit-able targets. Against environmental objects, Viper does 10% more damage.

So if your trying to max out condition duration, would vipers still be better than givers? Givers has an extra 10% condition duration in weapons, but you lose the power and condition damage.

So I just noticed I’ve did the burn calculation wrong in the OP. That has been corrected.

Let me check. Viper’s weapons adds 7.5% duration, while giver’s gives 20%. So, full stats with Vipers is:

2066 Power
32.5% Crit Chance
1096 Condition Damage
1.1625 Crit Mod
2401 Effective Power
38.6% Condition Duration

Take away the weapon (7.5% condition duration, 205 power, 205 condition damage, 113 precision), and add the Giver weapon (171 prrecision, 171 vitality, 20% duration), you’ll get

Power: 1,861
Crit Chance: 35.3 (658 Precision)
Condition Damage: 891
Condition Duration: 51.1%
Crit Mod: 1.1765
Effective Power: 2,189
Bleed: 75
Burn: 270
Poison: 87
Confusion: 41, 105
Torment: 56

Viper’s has got the Giver set beat in effective power by 9.7%. For the conditions, I’m going to come up with an adjusted condi damage. Thiis the base condi damage time the duration. I.E. 75 × 1.51 for bleeds. It is messy, but it will do for now.

Bleed: 113 Giver, 122 Viper
Burn: 407 Giver, 417 Viper
Poison: 131 Giver, 137 Viper
Confusion: 62, 159 Giver, 67, 164 Viper
Torment: 85 Giver, 90 Viper.

Looks like pure Viper has got Giver’s beat, in both intensity and overall effect. However, this is at base. It is important to know that Viper and Giver’s have different scaling. The more condition damage you get, the more advantage giver’s gets. The more condition duration you get, the more advantage viper’s gives.

For example, at max might, bleed will do 182 scaled damage with Givers, but Vipers does 184. You may be saying “But Viper’s is still higher!” and you are right, but notice that Vipers is only 2 points higher, but was 9 points higher previously. Additional sources of condition damage may push Giver’s over Vipers. In fact, let me check the formula for that…

((C + 891) x 0.06 + 22) x 1.51 = ((C + 1096) x0.06 + 22) x 1.386
(0.06C + 75.4) x 1.51 = (0.06 C + 87.8) x 1.386
0.0906C + 113.8 = 0.0832C + 121.7
0.0074C = 7.9
C = 1,068

That is 318 points higher than max might. Include the rune set and a stacking sigil, and you just may achieve that number. When the Giver’s set is at 1,959 condition damage, it will match the Viper’s Set at 2,164. This is at base, so if you include other things (Sigil of Malice, Rare Veggie Pizza, other sources of condi duration), then the gap widens.

For example, the same calculation done again with Rare Veggie Pizza and a Sigil of Malice gets you a difference of

0.1086C + 136.47 = 0.1012 C +148
0.074C = 11.56
C = 1,562

Which.. isn’t a number I’m certain you can reach.

Tl:dr RUN VIPER YOU FOOL!

I finished making a full viper set. My wallet aches and my homework needs doing, but I’ve done it. I tested whether the expertise adds to condi duration or not.

It does. The bug is fixed. BUY VIPER YOU FOOL!

I have a problem. As a Guardian, I have +85% burn duration from the Rune of Balthazar (45% burn), Sigil of Smoldering (20% burn duration), and Radiant Fire (trait, 20% burn duration). I made a pair of Viper weps to test out.

With my Ascended Sinister greatsword (exotic sinister armor), here is what my char tab looks like:
0 expertise
0.0% condition duration
85% burn duration

With Ascended Viper Scepter+Torch (exotic sinister armor), here is what my char tab looks like:
118 expertise
7.86% condition duration
92.86% burn duration

That’s all great and everything, BUT my problem arises when I eat the 20% (or even 18%) condi duration food

With food, with the Sinister weapon set,
0 expertise
20% condition duration
100% burn duration

With food, with the Viper weapon set
118 expertise
27.86% condition duration
100% burn duration

I’m pushed over 100%. When I have the food buff, burn duration is 100% with BOTH the viper and the sinister weapon set. That means that with food, the viper duration is completely useless!

Now I’m not sure what to do to maximize DPS. I can’t use these same runes, sigils, food, traits with Viper gear because I’ll go over 100% and waste valuable stats. So, I could

1) Use all sinister gear and sit at 100% burn damage with the current food, sigil, rune, and trait buffs I have.
2) Use some Viper gear, and swap out the duration food for another food
3) Use some Viper gear, and swap out the duration sigil for another sigil
4) Use some Viper gear, and swap out the duration rune for another rune
5) Use some Viper gear, and swap out the duration trait for another trait (this one isn’t a real option because this trait would be important even if it didn’t have the duration)

By far the easiest of those options is to just say “screw Viper,” run all sinister gear (option #1). Does anyone have any input on this? But, maybe there is another sigil that could benefit me more, maybe sigil of bursting?

Min/Maxers have it rough. No one understands us =(

Note: I can clarify if any of this doesn’t make sense

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

So I just noticed I’ve did the burn calculation wrong in the OP. That has been corrected.

Let me check. Viper’s weapons adds 7.5% duration, while giver’s gives 20%. So, full stats with Vipers is:

2066 Power
32.5% Crit Chance
1096 Condition Damage
1.1625 Crit Mod
2401 Effective Power
38.6% Condition Duration

Take away the weapon (7.5% condition duration, 205 power, 205 condition damage, 113 precision), and add the Giver weapon (171 prrecision, 171 vitality, 20% duration), you’ll get

Power: 1,861
Crit Chance: 35.3 (658 Precision)
Condition Damage: 891
Condition Duration: 51.1%
Crit Mod: 1.1765
Effective Power: 2,189
Bleed: 75
Burn: 270
Poison: 87
Confusion: 41, 105
Torment: 56

Viper’s has got the Giver set beat in effective power by 9.7%. For the conditions, I’m going to come up with an adjusted condi damage. Thiis the base condi damage time the duration. I.E. 75 × 1.51 for bleeds. It is messy, but it will do for now.

Bleed: 113 Giver, 122 Viper
Burn: 407 Giver, 417 Viper
Poison: 131 Giver, 137 Viper
Confusion: 62, 159 Giver, 67, 164 Viper
Torment: 85 Giver, 90 Viper.

Looks like pure Viper has got Giver’s beat, in both intensity and overall effect. However, this is at base. It is important to know that Viper and Giver’s have different scaling. The more condition damage you get, the more advantage giver’s gets. The more condition duration you get, the more advantage viper’s gives.

For example, at max might, bleed will do 182 scaled damage with Givers, but Vipers does 184. You may be saying “But Viper’s is still higher!” and you are right, but notice that Vipers is only 2 points higher, but was 9 points higher previously. Additional sources of condition damage may push Giver’s over Vipers. In fact, let me check the formula for that…

((C + 891) x 0.06 + 22) x 1.51 = ((C + 1096) x0.06 + 22) x 1.386
(0.06C + 75.4) x 1.51 = (0.06 C + 87.8) x 1.386
0.0906C + 113.8 = 0.0832C + 121.7
0.0074C = 7.9
C = 1,068

That is 318 points higher than max might. Include the rune set and a stacking sigil, and you just may achieve that number. When the Giver’s set is at 1,959 condition damage, it will match the Viper’s Set at 2,164. This is at base, so if you include other things (Sigil of Malice, Rare Veggie Pizza, other sources of condi duration), then the gap widens.

For example, the same calculation done again with Rare Veggie Pizza and a Sigil of Malice gets you a difference of

0.1086C + 136.47 = 0.1012 C +148
0.074C = 11.56
C = 1,562

Which.. isn’t a number I’m certain you can reach.

Tl:dr RUN VIPER YOU FOOL!

What about a class with primarily main hand weapon damage using main hand ascended viper, off hand exotic giver’s?

The only problem I see with viper’s is that you have to wear a completely full set to get the most benefit out of it.

I’d still take giver’s or even stopping at 50% condi increase as long as I don’t have to rely on a single stat set. Having to rely solely on the CDs of your active/reactive defenses makes you very squishy and, really, only useful for range/kiting.

It couldn’t work for melee in pve but I can see this working for builds in pvp. I’ve already made a trap/burn guard with the amulet and it works pretty well for blowing up team fights or catching players off guard.

doctordoak.2634:

I have a problem. As a Guardian, I have +85% burn duration from the Rune of Balthazar (45% burn), Sigil of Smoldering (20% burn duration), and Radiant Fire (trait, 20% burn duration). I made a pair of Viper weps to test out.

With my Ascended Sinister greatsword (exotic sinister armor), here is what my char tab looks like:
0 expertise
0.0% condition duration
85% burn duration

With Ascended Viper Scepter+Torch (exotic sinister armor), here is what my char tab looks like:
118 expertise
7.86% condition duration
92.86% burn duration

That’s all great and everything, BUT my problem arises when I eat the 20% (or even 18%) condi duration food

With food, with the Sinister weapon set,
0 expertise
20% condition duration
100% burn duration

With food, with the Viper weapon set
118 expertise
27.86% condition duration
100% burn duration

I’m pushed over 100%. When I have the food buff, burn duration is 100% with BOTH the viper and the sinister weapon set. That means that with food, the viper duration is completely useless!

Now I’m not sure what to do to maximize DPS. I can’t use these same runes, sigils, food, traits with Viper gear because I’ll go over 100% and waste valuable stats. So, I could

1) Use all sinister gear and sit at 100% burn damage with the current food, sigil, rune, and trait buffs I have.
2) Use some Viper gear, and swap out the duration food for another food
3) Use some Viper gear, and swap out the duration sigil for another sigil
4) Use some Viper gear, and swap out the duration rune for another rune
5) Use some Viper gear, and swap out the duration trait for another trait (this one isn’t a real option because this trait would be important even if it didn’t have the duration)

By far the easiest of those options is to just say “screw Viper,” run all sinister gear (option #1). Does anyone have any input on this? But, maybe there is another sigil that could benefit me more, maybe sigil of bursting?

Min/Maxers have it rough. No one understands us =(

Note: I can clarify if any of this doesn’t make sense

I already talked about this. But I’ll reiterate again: In situations where condition duration reaches 100%, swap out Viper for Sinister.

Generally, anyway. You are faced with other build options. Depending on how many additional conditions you have. I know guards just use burn for damage, but last I checked guardians also run blind, vulnerability, immobilize, and Dragon Hunters use cripple. If your build has ample access to these ancillary conditions, then there is a second build option.

Currently, you achieve 100% burning duration via a set of highly specific runes/sigils/etc. If you use a lot of other conditions, you can swap out some of the more focused bits (I.E. the sigil of smoldering) for Viper gear, and replace them with other things (Sigil of Bursting, Sigil of Malice, Sigil of Corruption, Sigil of Earth, etc). It should make an overall stronger build. Assuming you use a lot of vulnerability already.

This is all build specific. My knowledge of condi guards is limited, and I don’t know what game mode this is being made for. So, given the options…

A) If you use a lot of vuln or other conditions, swap out burn specific duration bonuses for omni-duration bonuses, and use Viper’s to fill the gaps. Preferably the smoldering sigil, as the Runes of Balthazar are already a very strong set. This will result in a viper/sinister mix, with Viper Armor + Weapons and Sinister Trinkets. The armor + weapons will give 20% extra condi duration, covering for smoldering while also boosting everything else. Most importantly, your vuln stackinging will increase by 16.7%. Also, you can replace that Smoldering Sigil with something like Earth or Geomancy for extra bleeds.

B) If not… let me check some math…

Viper Weapon/Armor+ Sinister Trinkets
Power: 1,970
Precision: 738 (39.1% Crit Rate)
Malice: 1,193
Expertise: 309 (20.6%)
Crit Mod: 1.1955
Effective Power: 2,355
Burn: 316
Bleed: 94

Sinister Burn: 331
Sinister Bleed: 99

You’re probably wondering why I picked this setup. It is because the expertise nearly exactly matches that of the Sigil of Smoldering Bonus. Assuming no additional conditions, there’s a couple of things that can be used to replace it.

Sigil of Earth: Adds 1.64 bleed ticks per “hit” roughly. I can’t remember the exact math I used to figure it out before (it was complicated and involved logarithms). Or going by the “eventuality” measure, it adds 3.5 bleed ticks per second maximum against a single target. Using the lower number, this will outpace sinister smoldering damage if the average maintained burn stacks of a fight is less than 10.3. Again, I’m not experienced with condi guard, so I don’t know how much burn they sustain. Also note, this number doesn’t extend to multiple targets, so against 3 targets the sustained burn threshold is 3.43 on all 3 enemies.

Sigil of Bursting: This will increase the condi damage to 1,265, creating a 328 damage burn. This is below sinister burn by the smallest of margins (literall less than 1%), but it is still weaker than just going full sinister. However, in max might situations, this will surpass sinister, but barely.

Sigil of Corruption: This will surpass full sinister at any might situation… if you are willing to put up with the buildup and inconsistency of the sigil.

Sigil of Geomancy: This will inflict 4.67 bleed ticks per second to any enemies around you. The sustained amount of burns needed to be equivalent to this in full sinister is 29.2, on all targets. This will beat out full Sinister, if you don’t mind the cumbersome use of having to weapon swap at point blank range to use. For consistency, you can divide the sustained burns by how frequently you actually weapon swap at close range. So if you swap only once every 27 seconds, then the sustained burns is 9.7 on all relevant targets.

Sigil of Strength: Depending on how many targets you face, this will add anywhere from 2.3 to 9.4 stacks of might. Depending on group situation, this can either be a great help or none at all. At lowest values it is equivalent to bursting at no might.

Specialty Sigil: this goes here for WvW purposes, like condi transfers and stuff. Use if needed.

Now for the showdown: Geomancy vs. Corruption. Corruption at max gives a 355 burn, no might. The difference between corruption burn and geomancy burn is 39 points, and this difference is the same no matter the might situation. Now, Geomancy inflicts 4.67 bleed ticks per second, which requires a sustained corruption burn value of 11.3 stacks of burning to be equal to. Reduce this value as needed, depending on how frequently you swap weapons while at point blank range. So, Geomancy or Corruption is optimal, depending on what situation/playstyle you find yourself in.

This is in a general sense. You can remove a piece or two of viper gear to get 82% condi damage, which will cap at 100% with a super veggie pizza.

C): If you are in WvW and are running glass condi guard, then there is always the option to build for 100% duration without food, and use the food buff for something else.

So yeah, remove smoldering, viper’s gear to 82% duration, replace with corruption or geomancy depending on playstyle.

Eponet.4829:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

So I just noticed I’ve did the burn calculation wrong in the OP. That has been corrected.

Let me check. Viper’s weapons adds 7.5% duration, while giver’s gives 20%. So, full stats with Vipers is:

2066 Power
32.5% Crit Chance
1096 Condition Damage
1.1625 Crit Mod
2401 Effective Power
38.6% Condition Duration

Take away the weapon (7.5% condition duration, 205 power, 205 condition damage, 113 precision), and add the Giver weapon (171 prrecision, 171 vitality, 20% duration), you’ll get

Power: 1,861
Crit Chance: 35.3 (658 Precision)
Condition Damage: 891
Condition Duration: 51.1%
Crit Mod: 1.1765
Effective Power: 2,189
Bleed: 75
Burn: 270
Poison: 87
Confusion: 41, 105
Torment: 56

Viper’s has got the Giver set beat in effective power by 9.7%. For the conditions, I’m going to come up with an adjusted condi damage. Thiis the base condi damage time the duration. I.E. 75 × 1.51 for bleeds. It is messy, but it will do for now.

Bleed: 113 Giver, 122 Viper
Burn: 407 Giver, 417 Viper
Poison: 131 Giver, 137 Viper
Confusion: 62, 159 Giver, 67, 164 Viper
Torment: 85 Giver, 90 Viper.

Looks like pure Viper has got Giver’s beat, in both intensity and overall effect. However, this is at base. It is important to know that Viper and Giver’s have different scaling. The more condition damage you get, the more advantage giver’s gets. The more condition duration you get, the more advantage viper’s gives.

For example, at max might, bleed will do 182 scaled damage with Givers, but Vipers does 184. You may be saying “But Viper’s is still higher!” and you are right, but notice that Vipers is only 2 points higher, but was 9 points higher previously. Additional sources of condition damage may push Giver’s over Vipers. In fact, let me check the formula for that…

((C + 891) x 0.06 + 22) x 1.51 = ((C + 1096) x0.06 + 22) x 1.386
(0.06C + 75.4) x 1.51 = (0.06 C + 87.8) x 1.386
0.0906C + 113.8 = 0.0832C + 121.7
0.0074C = 7.9
C = 1,068

That is 318 points higher than max might. Include the rune set and a stacking sigil, and you just may achieve that number. When the Giver’s set is at 1,959 condition damage, it will match the Viper’s Set at 2,164. This is at base, so if you include other things (Sigil of Malice, Rare Veggie Pizza, other sources of condi duration), then the gap widens.

For example, the same calculation done again with Rare Veggie Pizza and a Sigil of Malice gets you a difference of

0.1086C + 136.47 = 0.1012 C +148
0.074C = 11.56
C = 1,562

Which.. isn’t a number I’m certain you can reach.

Tl:dr RUN VIPER YOU FOOL!

What about a class with primarily main hand weapon damage using main hand ascended viper, off hand exotic giver’s?

If Viper’s is better than Giver’s overall, then mixing the two just running an inferior piece with a superior piece. You’re better off using two superior pieces.

blakdoxa.7520:

The only problem I see with viper’s is that you have to wear a completely full set to get the most benefit out of it.

I’d still take giver’s or even stopping at 50% condi increase as long as I don’t have to rely on a single stat set. Having to rely solely on the CDs of your active/reactive defenses makes you very squishy and, really, only useful for range/kiting.

It couldn’t work for melee in pve but I can see this working for builds in pvp. I’ve already made a trap/burn guard with the amulet and it works pretty well for blowing up team fights or catching players off guard.

This is not true. You don’t need to wear full viper’s to get the benefit. It is just that Viper is superior to Sinister until you reach 100% condi duration, making it the best condi damage set given that condition. This is true on the marginal level. Even if you only have a Viper weapon, it is still better than a Sinister Weapon.

I also use melee glass condi gear in PVE all the time. My rev is wearing a sinister/viper mix, and my thief is wearing a full viper set, and I don’t have any problem using their condi melee weapons. I didn’t have a problem with a sinster axe/torch ranger, either.

But, durability is a legitimate concern. If you want a more durable setup, let me introduce you to Viper’s hardier brother: Trailblazer. Trailblazer is Tough/Condi Primary, Vit/Expertise secondary. It doesn’t have the power stats of Viper, but it does have the same condi duration and condi damage. So, if you want a more durable build, then you’d want to mix in more trailblazer pieces.

I haven’t done as much math with Trailblazer, though. For good reason: The offensive stats are normalized among classes, but defensive stats are not. Therefore, the efficiency of Trailblazer when compared to, say, Nomads, is different from class to class. Though the general trend is pretty obviously going to be that Trailblazer does far more damage than Nomad, with only slight decreases in effective health, making an overall more formidable set.

You can do the comparison pretty easily: Traveler’s gives 1066 toughness and 579 vitality. Nomad’s gives 878 Toughness and Vitality. Insert class values, then check scaled effective health (max health x armor / 1920).

@OP: Your wonderful facts fall when you consider:
- Condition duration focus make fights longer. A longer fight means that you’ll have to tank more damages from your opponents. Also, the next wave can spawn before you killed the previous one.
- Cleanse cancel Condition duration. So all your extra damage vanish.

These two reasons explain why Viper > Sinister against non-cleansing foes.

Kulvar.1239:

@OP: Your wonderful facts fall when you consider:
- Condition duration focus make fights longer. A longer fight means that you’ll have to tank more damages from your opponents. Also, the next wave can spawn before you killed the previous one.
- Cleanse cancel Condition duration. So all your extra damage vanish.

These two reasons explain why Viper > Sinister against non-cleansing foes.

The thing is that Viper also has higher direct damage, so in a cleansing foes situation Viper is still better than Sinister.

Kulvar.1239:

@OP: Your wonderful facts fall when you consider:
- Condition duration focus make fights longer. A longer fight means that you’ll have to tank more damages from your opponents. Also, the next wave can spawn before you killed the previous one.
- Cleanse cancel Condition duration. So all your extra damage vanish.

These two reasons explain why Viper > Sinister against non-cleansing foes.

But is sinister better than berserker/marauder against enemies that cleanse conditions/need to be bursted down?

Belzebu.3912:

The thing is that Viper also has higher direct damage, so in a cleansing foes situation Viper is still better than Sinister.

Depends if you have “on critical” effects in your build.
It’s usual to have bleed stack on critical hit that increase the whole damage output.
Their short duration make condition cleanse less effective.
And as we’ve seen in the raw data, not only do they occur more frequently, they deal more damages

Eponet.4829:

But is sinister better than berserker/marauder against enemies that cleanse conditions/need to be bursted down?

It depends of your build ability to deal a massive amount of conditions in a short time range or if it rely on long duration condition applied frequently. A pyro guardian is very different from a scepter necromancer.

Also, you’re supposed to adapt to the foes you fight too. As there are (few) foes with cleansing, there are also foes who can dodge (smokescale, flying wyvern). But conditions still deal damages during their dodging.

There are people who will struggle against some foes, others don’t. As long as it’s not the same people everytime, it’s okay.

Embolism.8106:

For PvE I don’t think there’s any question that Viper is better (what else is the extra stat for?). PvP however is more dubious, because damaging conditions are usually plenty lethal if not cleansed; and if they are then the extra duration is wasted.

And yes I realise this is about PvE since it talks about stats on armour, just sayin’.

I wouldn’t be particularly surprised if mobs in raids start cleansing conditions though.

It’s irrelevant for PvP as neither of these have any defensive stats thus you’d be respawning before you could leave the base.

how do you actually craft vipers ascended armor? so far i have only found exotic recipes (via google). i wanted to craft an ascended set for quite a while but i have no idea how.

zaced.7948:

how do you actually craft vipers ascended armor? so far i have only found exotic recipes (via google). i wanted to craft an ascended set for quite a while but i have no idea how.

Short answer: you don’t, you use the MF to change the stats of your existing armor (total cost of ~100g)

Long Answer: There is an ascended viper recipe set. It costs something like 400g per piece and needs 20+ hours of account bound mats per piece. (Total cost ~2400g + 100 hours of farming)

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

So yeah, remove smoldering, viper’s gear to 82% duration, replace with corruption or geomancy depending on playstyle.

Should have already mentioned that my other sigil is corruption. Were you operating under the assumption that my other sigil was something else?

Either way, thanks a lot for the response. It feels like I’ve narrowed down what I should do quite a bit. I don’t think there is a better food or rune in terms of “bang for my buck,” so I think it’s down to the sigil change vs. just running full sinister (out of pure convenience). The problem with the Geomancy sigil is I don’t typically swap much especially in a boss/champ fight. I might try some of these sigils out on the heart of the mists golem. BTW, I’m talking mostly PvE, and I haven’t really been considering other conditions, though I probably should be!

Edit: Between my main 2 weapon sets and my most-used utility/elite skills, I have 1 blind on a 15 second cooldown and 1 vulnerability (3 stacks) on a 20 second cooldown. I tend to believe with the way I currently play, it isn’t worth considering those when doing these sorts of optimizations

I use sinister amor on my dragon hunter and its perfect.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

zaced.7948:

how do you actually craft vipers ascended armor? so far i have only found exotic recipes (via google). i wanted to craft an ascended set for quite a while but i have no idea how.

Short answer: you don’t, you use the MF to change the stats of your existing armor (total cost of ~100g)

Long Answer: There is an ascended viper recipe set. It costs something like 400g per piece and needs 20+ hours of account bound mats per piece. (Total cost ~2400g + 100 hours of farming)

well, that’s kinda demotivating …
since i’d rather keep my existing armor (and the runes in it) i’ll just craft some bullkitten stat armor and mf the stats.

doctordoak.2634:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

So yeah, remove smoldering, viper’s gear to 82% duration, replace with corruption or geomancy depending on playstyle.

Should have already mentioned that my other sigil is corruption. Were you operating under the assumption that my other sigil was something else?

Either way, thanks a lot for the response. It feels like I’ve narrowed down what I should do quite a bit. I don’t think there is a better food or rune in terms of “bang for my buck,” so I think it’s down to the sigil change vs. just running full sinister (out of pure convenience). The problem with the Geomancy sigil is I don’t typically swap much especially in a boss/champ fight. I might try some of these sigils out on the heart of the mists golem. BTW, I’m talking mostly PvE, and I haven’t really been considering other conditions, though I probably should be!

Edit: Between my main 2 weapon sets and my most-used utility/elite skills, I have 1 blind on a 15 second cooldown and 1 vulnerability (3 stacks) on a 20 second cooldown. I tend to believe with the way I currently play, it isn’t worth considering those when doing these sorts of optimizations

runes are your problem here:
full (available) viper is 40% ish, 20 from each of food, trait, and sigil gets you to ~100%.
so use berserker or aristrocracy runes.

I run a lot of solo PvE and have been using Sinister on my necro with reaper runes. I need to spec some toughness where I typically run solo. Previously I was running Dire gear with Undead runes. Maximum CD, maximum survivability, essentially no effective DD to speak of…but with a staff a great build for defending towers in WvW. And in PvE, while it might take longer to bring down tough foes, with the Dire gear I can typically do it without worrying too much about dying.

That said, I’ve been wanting to move my necro/reaper to a build with more power, without giving up too much of the CD that makes a necro a necro, so chose the Sinister set. The way I see it, I MAY have gone with the Viper gear had I known about it, but it’s not enough of a gain over Sinister that it’s worth spending a pile of gold on. Perhaps as a long term goal, it might be worthwhile, but for the time being, nah.