Guild Wars 2

Rainmaker.7594:

Veterans are not anywhere near as powerful as a player. I can stand in one spot, not dodge, and beat most of them very easily. Elites are about equal to players though (with a larger health pool).

As far as what you’re saying about being CC’d is irritating – why do you feel that all content should be afk aa snore-fests? Do you seek no real challenge to be in the game? Last I checked, this is a PC game, not a flash/touch-screen game. PC games tend to be more about challenge, and I for one don’t wanna see that change; If anything, make it more challenging. Maybe enable a special map for people that don’t like pull/knock-back – replace all mobs with elite risen illusionists, hunters, and eles from Arah. See which people prefer

I hate CC because I find challenge irritating and think that content should put me to sleep at night. Is that what you wanted to hear? Will you actually read my words now that I’ve said it?

I definitely hate challenges. Like when I solo’d a champ in Fireheart Rise just to see if I could pull it off. Totally not for the challenge. Or when I helped run a raiding guild in another game for 2+ years and was bummed every time a boss that we were working on get nerfed. Also cause I hate challenge.

In fact, right now I’m dictating my words to a personal secretary to type for me because typing is too challenging for my fingers and I don’t want to hurt them.

Sarcasm aside, being punted around is not challenge; it’s obnoxious design. Carrying 4 stun breaks or constant stability to run through mobs doesn’t make you clever or skilled; it just makes you prepared. I have never enjoyed mechanics that take over control of my character. I never have and I likely never will.

That is just how it is for some of us. Perhaps for you, it is challenging to equip different abilities for a specific purpose and then activate them? It is not for me. Even with lower level toons in labyrinth, I got downed maybe once running through the mobs and that was when they caught me off-guard.

I don’t know how much more clear I can make it that this isn’t a skill issue for me. I simply do not like, as the OP put it, “being a rag doll.” If I can negate 90% of that with one mechanic, then – to put it bluntly – the designers have failed. At best, their CC-spamming mobs become a flytrap for the unprepared. That’s about it.

Outside of the lab, where is all this extra “rag-doll” stuff consistently seen? The lab is like an light version of the old Orr areas. Those had nasty pulling that made every step super tedious. Could be I haven’t done much exploring since they changed it, but I am not finding many areas with the rage inducing pull/knockback that those orr mobs had.

Rainmaker.7594:

Labjax.2465:

It’s not about being more powerful, it’s about irritation. AI doesn’t have feelings and can’t get frustrated at losing control of its character.

Also, we have mobs that are about equal or greater in strength than players: Veterans and Champions.

Veterans are not anywhere near as powerful as a player. I can stand in one spot, not dodge, and beat most of them very easily. Elites are about equal to players though (with a larger health pool).

As far as what you’re saying about being CC’d is irritating – why do you feel that all content should be afk aa snore-fests? Do you seek no real challenge to be in the game? Last I checked, this is a PC game, not a flash/touch-screen game. PC games tend to be more about challenge, and I for one don’t wanna see that change; If anything, make it more challenging. Maybe enable a special map for people that don’t like pull/knock-back – replace all mobs with elite risen illusionists, hunters, and eles from Arah. See which people prefer

Rauderi.8706:

If it should go both ways, does that mean I can petition to get my hammer a one-hit KO skill?

Afaik, the only thing that does that is Crusher in Arah p3. He is a boss, not a regular mob, and as such should be much more powerful than players.

Why do you feel that CC is the only way to present a challenge? No one has said it’s too hard, they said it was annoying. We want mobs that effectively attack us, not ones that prevent us from attacking. It’s the difference between fighting a truly tough opponent vs fighting a poor opponent with your good hand tied behind your back.

Take the Horror from the laby…. I’ve seen it wipe zergs and it doesn’t use CC, That’s doing it right.

toxianguardian.4850:

I am so fed up with being yanked around, pushed around, knocked down, chilled, crippled, stunned, anything and everything they PACK into every godkitten zone to prevent me from doing something so SIMPLE as trying to get to my party! It’s REALLY getting out of hand, and just made it all too easy to switch off the game tonight and watch a movie instead.

Wanna pack a dungeon with all that stuff? HAVE AT IT, I definetely feel we should have to get smart to skip all those trash mobs!

But in the open world? C’mon ANET, give a dude a break, those are some big effing zones to be getting messed with the WHOLE way to your party.

Please tone it down.

/rant off

oh! you must be a necro too!

EgonVenkman.1907:

Outside of the lab, where is all this extra “rag-doll” stuff consistently seen? The lab is like an light version of the old Orr areas. Those had nasty pulling that made every step super tedious. Could be I haven’t done much exploring since they changed it, but I am not finding many areas with the rage inducing pull/knockback that those orr mobs had.

Read the OP again. He didn’t just say KB/KD and pulls. In any 80 zone you will find yourself chilled/crippled/immobilized/feared more often than you can compensate for unless you build specifically for it.

On a side note, the Lich has only a brief Fear effect and still manages to tear up zergs. More CC is not the answer to every question.

Labjax.2465:

Mystic.5934:

So few people use condi removal and/or stun breaks.
Everyone is like, ‘berkserker all the way, omg I cant move and kb is op’.
seriously, if you are having problems running from halloween mobs, just use more skills that help you get away, instead of skills that help you kill. fun bonus is that those skills help you fight instead of spending half the battle immobilized in the corner. Sometimes I’ll run with as much as 4 stun breaks (which have other uses as well), and there will still be times I want more.

You sometimes run with 4 stun breaks, while wanting more, around PvE mobs and you don’t see the issue here?

they are weak. they need something to boast about. Their thing is cc. I didn’t say it was an issue, just that breaking every kb when there are 10 mummies around you does deplete heavy counter-cc builds. In which case I use my last one, blink, and move on.

Sounds like the Mad King’s Labyrinth is working as intended.

Mystic.5934:

they are weak. they need something to boast about. Their thing is cc. I didn’t say it was an issue, just that breaking every kb when there are 10 mummies around you does deplete heavy counter-cc builds. In which case I use my last one, blink, and move on.

Oh, I’m not saying that you were saying there was an issue. I was saying that in light of deciding 4 stun breaks (and wanting more) for some areas is a good idea, I would think it obvious that something is strange about that.

Perhaps I have just not been around enough, but this is the first time I’ve heard of someone talking about 4 or more stun breaks being advisable in an MMO. 2 maybe, is about the most of I’ve heard of before now.

dagrdagaz.4913:

Serophous.9085:

When running:; Equip condition cleanse, equip stability. Done

uhm… no, missing the point u are.

Uhm…no I’m not. The op feels that if he just wants to catch up to his party, then mobs should have no agro on him and if they do, should be nice and not use abilities.

If you want to not be harrassed or affected by pulls, pushes immobilizes, etc, then apply the skills for it. Take the stability skills, speed skills, cleanses, whatever. Equip weapons that can increase your mobility through leaps or charges, and learn to dodge the attacks that pull or immobilize you. Chances are, if you agro a mob that can perform that attack, it will perform it first. So get ready to dodge.

thread was a good laugh 8/8 m8 no h8

Challenge to fight? No, I think very few people find these mobs a challenge to fight. It is clear though that people find it a challenge to run through. I, personally, don’t find it a challenge. But I know how to use blocks, mobility, dodge, etc. I can run down that whole side of the map and get pulled maybe twice. Its a minor annoyance, sure, but its effective way to make people feel like actually fighting the mobs instead of skipping everything. But, then again, I never run to join up with the zerg (I’d rather solo), so I can’t say I entirely know how that feels. The closest I’ve come is running to a spot to solo the lab horror or lich, which was still very easy. I think mobs in more areas should make you actually want to fight them (but still be skippable such as in the lab).

Some thoughts.

• ANet did not design mobs so players could bypass them. They were designed to be engaged. If you’re skilled enough to evade them while running by, more power to you. However, it is not up to Anet to design them so anyone can run past them with impunity.
• GW2 combat mechanics are very much designed around play/counter-play. If a mob is using an ability you don’t want to be affected by, use a counter. That’s the central tenet of the game’s combat mechanics.
• Mobs are not built using the exact same mechanics as players. Some mobs do have longer-lasting CC than players. Almost all of them also have longer times between their attacks, very few of them dodge or kite, and very few have a self heal. If mobs could post, they’d be calling characters OP.

Serophous.9085:

When running:; Equip condition cleanse, equip stability. Done

Still is extremely annoying. Especially as those mobs can spam cc faster than i can recharge cleanses (which means a lot, as my condi cleanse is quite good), and some of their cc’s seem to go right through stability (you can quite often get immo’b 1s after popping a stability, for example).
Granted, it’s not enough to actually kill someone prepared, but it is annoying. And in the end does not add anything really valuable to the content.
(notice, i am speaking specifically about the Labyrinth here).

Astralporing.1957:

Serophous.9085:

When running:; Equip condition cleanse, equip stability. Done

Still is extremely annoying. Especially as those mobs can spam cc faster than i can recharge condis (which means a lot, as my condi cleanse is quite good), and some of their cc’s seem to go right through stability (you can quite often get immo’b 1s after popping a stability, for example).
Granted, it’s not enough to actually kill someone prepared, but it is annoying. And in the end does not add anything really valuable to the content.
(notice, i am speaking specifically about the Labyrinth here).

This is entirely a learn to play issue on your part.

Immobilize isn’t prevented by stability, so being immobilized after you pop stability is entirely expected if you fail to avoid the source of immobilize. Learn how the game works.

You should be avoiding nearly every condition placed on you. This is very easy via some combination of movement skills, swiftness, intelligent player pathing, and dodge.

Zui.9245:

Astralporing.1957:

Serophous.9085:

When running:; Equip condition cleanse, equip stability. Done

Still is extremely annoying. Especially as those mobs can spam cc faster than i can recharge condis (which means a lot, as my condi cleanse is quite good), and some of their cc’s seem to go right through stability (you can quite often get immo’b 1s after popping a stability, for example).
Granted, it’s not enough to actually kill someone prepared, but it is annoying. And in the end does not add anything really valuable to the content.
(notice, i am speaking specifically about the Labyrinth here).

This is entirely a learn to play issue on your part.

Immobilize isn’t prevented by stability, so being immobilized after you pop stability is entirely expected if you fail to avoid the source of immobilize. Learn how the game works.

You should be avoiding nearly every condition placed on you. This is very easy via some combination of movement skills, swiftness, intelligent player pathing, and dodge.

I’d say it’s entirely a learn to read issue. Missed point in bold.

Yes, there should be a challenge. That challenge shouldn’t be enjoying the content.

disagree w/ OP.

condi-cleanse/condi-transfers/stability/stun breakers/blocks/evades/reflects/swiftness exist for a reason……it’s actually nice to have an occasion to use them in open world PvE. Mad Lab isn’t meant to be solo-ed.

if you hate this, there’s 90% of the open-world that requires none of it. play there.

archdemonXIII.7063:

Zui.9245:

Astralporing.1957:

Serophous.9085:

When running:; Equip condition cleanse, equip stability. Done

Still is extremely annoying. Especially as those mobs can spam cc faster than i can recharge condis (which means a lot, as my condi cleanse is quite good), and some of their cc’s seem to go right through stability (you can quite often get immo’b 1s after popping a stability, for example).
Granted, it’s not enough to actually kill someone prepared, but it is annoying. And in the end does not add anything really valuable to the content.
(notice, i am speaking specifically about the Labyrinth here).

This is entirely a learn to play issue on your part.

Immobilize isn’t prevented by stability, so being immobilized after you pop stability is entirely expected if you fail to avoid the source of immobilize. Learn how the game works.

You should be avoiding nearly every condition placed on you. This is very easy via some combination of movement skills, swiftness, intelligent player pathing, and dodge.

I’d say it’s entirely a learn to read issue. Missed point in bold.

Yes, there should be a challenge. That challenge shouldn’t be enjoying the content.

I didn’t miss his “point” that he finds trash skips annoying.

But open world trash skips are so insanely easy you can only consider them a challenge if you’re extremely bad at the game. It’s only possibly annoying if you are very bad at intelligent player pathing, dodging, using your movement skills, self-buffing with swiftness, and using stability/condi clears/condi immunities as appropriate. And given how easy open world trash skips are, you can eliminate about half of that list and still breeze by without any kind of issues or possible annoyance.

His point was “It’s annoying, but I do not know how to play the game”. My point was, “This is a learn to play issue”. My point still stands, and your point is wholly irrelevant because you failed to consider my reply in the broader context of the discussion.

Serophous.9085:

When running:; Equip condition cleanse, equip stability. Done

Also, did anyone else think of Aerosmith from the title?

Rag Doll is the only reason that I tuned into the thread.

I really am trying to get this thread.

I agree that the cc in the labyrinth can be annoying.

I also agree that you can easily mitigate most of it.

Just like the stupid living story bosses, this is how GW2 gives you “hard” content.

All I gotta say is I have been running Labrynth a lot lately, started on a lvl like 10 character, had no issues running through with the use of a few skills on it (engi). Got him up to about 65 then ran him to all the dungeon locations including Arah, also had no issues there either. And, honestly I don’t consider myself to be that good at the game.

So /shrug, GL getting better as that seems to be the only issue here.

Chain CC is annoying mostly BECAUSE the mobs are NOT challenging.

I solo everything in the Labyrinth, including bosses, and chain CC from some of the trash is just painfully tiresome.
The L2P litany reflex needs to stop, this is not an universal answer to complains and it makes you look like trolls.

Is your MMO getting you down?
Tired of trash mobs turning you into pate miles from the nearest wp?

Try new NECRO, the trash-cleanser that really shifts those ground-in Risen… because I’m worth it

Yes, as to my reference to the LS.

It’s easy, yet time consuming and boring, to complete many of these boss fights. I go into them with no fear of failure, but I actually play less often because I know how tediously long the events will be.

And after wasting so much time, the rewards are often not impressive.

There is a freakin spider in Temple of Grenth that aways immobilize me for like 20seconds (its not just one,its like 5 little spiders using the same immobilize skill at the same time = 20 seconds of immobilize)

Its annoying,I have the reflex of using CC remove right when I see a condition,so instead of waiting all the 5 spiders hit,I cleanse it after the first and the 4 other can stack their conditions (5 seconds of immobilize each)

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I can literally feel the NPE change incoming: Removed everything that could possibly annoy the player. New features: Mobs wont move, attack or interact with the player in any way.

Seriously, I’ve never had any issues with this, even the labyrinth is manageable. The only CC-chain in this game can be found in WvW and is called “a hostile zerg”.

I’ve seen this happen in other games. At launch endgame zones quite challenging, patrolling champs, dungeons that need a 20min fight just to get to the entrance. Few years later and the mainly static mobs are so widely spaced you can walk from one side of map to other without pulling aggro if you’re a tiny bit careful with route. Meanwhile the mobs get toned down enough that nothing anywhere in the open world needs anything other than stand and 1 spam.

I guess it’s catering to casuals, but I’m casual and I hate this tendency. It’s why I’ve left previous games.

Someone further up was glad Cursed Shore had been toned down. To me it should have been left alone. It’s Cursed Shore, not Slightly Frowned Upon Shore. It should be a dangeous place rather than somewhere you can mostly wander anywhere whilst gathering and rarely have to care about mobs, let alone need to kill them.

That all said, I DO think the OP has a point that CC is overused as a mechanic. Some better AI, or enemies that dodge, or group up a little more intelligently would be nice to see. They tried a few of those ideas right back in beta. Always amuses me when you attack a risen and it calls out for reinforcements that never come… they should! Mix it up some.

Serophous.9085:

When running:; Equip condition cleanse, equip stability. Done

Also, did anyone else think of Aerosmith from the title?

Have you been in the Labyrinth? Frequently you run into multiple mummies / skeletons that grab or knock back. Condition cleans and Stability usually have cooldowns.

And since the OP was talking about running through, not stopping to fight, it is in fact an issue. I do think it is fine in the Labyrinth to stop people from farming doors more easily. But it would be nice to have a convenience item that allows you to teleport to your party.

Ayochak.8293:

Chain CC is annoying mostly BECAUSE the mobs are NOT challenging.

I solo everything in the Labyrinth, including bosses, and chain CC from some of the trash is just painfully tiresome.
The L2P litany reflex needs to stop, this is not an universal answer to complains and it makes you look like trolls.

People like to feel like they’re better than someone even if they really just didn’t read the OP

Ayochak.8293:

Chain CC is annoying mostly BECAUSE the mobs are NOT challenging.

I solo everything in the Labyrinth, including bosses, and chain CC from some of the trash is just painfully tiresome.
The L2P litany reflex needs to stop, this is not an universal answer to complains and it makes you look like trolls.

^ Someone understands.

I have no issues getting to zergs. I die a little inside when i’m forced to leave things alive in dungeons through skipping. Hell my endgame is 90% wandering maps and killing anything that moves while using the Irwin Method of threat assessment (that looks really big and scary…. let’s poke it with a stick and see what happens). It’s not a challenge. That’s the point.

@Syzygy: In games, you need a challenge to make something fun. On the other hand you don’t need to make something fun to make it challenging. As long as the player base will settle for challenge over good design, it’s really a no-brainer that when enough people complain about a task that feels like a chore, they will simply remove it.

Syzygy.5031:

Some better AI, or enemies that dodge, or group up a little more intelligently would be nice to see. They tried a few of those ideas right back in beta. Always amuses me when you attack a risen and it calls out for reinforcements that never come… they should! Mix it up some.

Honestly, I would be ok with this.

One of the things that has always bugged me is when it feels like zones are overpopulated with mobs for no justifiable reason, other than “we want to make it harder for you to run through.”

First MMO I ever played – SWG pre-CU – I distinctly remember that mobs were spaced such that you could usually weave through them if you were paying attention. A lot of them were localized to “lairs” too, which made it somewhat challenging if you decided to attack (and distinctly more dangerous if you did aggro).

This meant there was real skill to running past mobs because you had to watch closely and ride the line sometimes between two different lairs to avoid aggro. In many areas in GW2, I find that avoiding aggro is nothing short of impossible. Sure, you can trump aggro with dodging, ports, stunbreaks, etc., but I miss that feeling of using careful awareness of my surroundings to avoid enemies – and knowing that if I did mess up, I could be in real danger of dying.

Anyway, that’s my nostalgia moment for the day. I don’t expect them to go and change all of their zones, but since I’ve been decrying the chain-CC nonsense, that’s an idea of what I would enjoy seeing: Real possibility to outsmart/avoid enemies entirely, but greater consequences for failing to do so. For example, mob patrols that move in clusters.

Perhaps they could try it in a new zone someday. Wink wink, Anet.

I honestly don’t think it’s as bad as the OP and others make it out to be. The problem arises when people just try to run past all the mobs, thereby aggroing a lot more of them than they can reasonably handle. When there’s one or two Mummies, you can easily dodge their pulls and run past. When there’s 4 of them and 2 Skeletons with Point Blank Shot, then you’ve got a problem.

If you DO want to run past all of them to catch up with the zerg, then yes, you will need to swap in blocks/stealth/stability/cleanses etc., essentially turning yourself into a runner.

If not, you can just advance slowly and kill one or two enemies at a time. The Mummies have the most amount of CC, but they do not tend to use them if you’re right next to them, meaning that if you just engage them slowly, they are very manageable. It’s not like the Labyrinth is THAT large; eventually you’ll either catch up to the zerg when they’re fighting the Viscount/Lich/Horror, or they’ll catch up to you.

toxianguardian.4850:

I am so fed up with being yanked around, pushed around, knocked down, chilled, crippled, stunned, anything and everything they PACK into every godkitten zone to prevent me from doing something so SIMPLE as trying to get to my party! It’s REALLY getting out of hand, and just made it all too easy to switch off the game tonight and watch a movie instead.

Wanna pack a dungeon with all that stuff? HAVE AT IT, I definetely feel we should have to get smart to skip all those trash mobs!

But in the open world? C’mon ANET, give a dude a break, those are some big effing zones to be getting messed with the WHOLE way to your party.

Please tone it down.

/rant off

So, you’re saying that Open World PvE has to be even more easier than what ANet toned it down before?

Heck, for example:

• Risen Farmers used to launch you, now they just dig a turret that can’t even hit you if you move a tiny bit.
• Risen Putrifiers used to pull you when they Immobilized you, but now they just immobilize.

Unfortunately, since the mobs design is like this, it’s pretty much standard that players demand, since everyone looks for fast way to make gold, instead of enjoying the game and combat…

(Unfortunately, for myself, I bought both GW1 and GW2 on release, I played GW1 in general PvE and solo without going serious about hard content or PvP, I enjoyed the adventuring in the PvE areas, I could play pretty much any build without being useless, but to me the current state of PvE in GW2 is pretty much opposite, since are designed so that they just die, instead of putting up a fight…)

Use Berserker and kill everything in Open World PvE, since 99% of mobs share same design, they’re extremely vulnerable to Critical Direct Dmg or “Berserker DPS” builds.

Mobs don’t possess “Longevity”, so “Offense is best defense” there.

Note: “Longevity” = Utilizes Active Defenses to mitigate damage and make the combat scenario last longer.

/rant

Throughout the year, I’ve been noticing the light, small, changes made in this game concerned about mobs and bosses. Yes, if I compare the game now with what was it 1 year and half ago, the amount of CC used by mobs have been greatly increased.

I was in the labyrinth 2 days ago with my warrior, right in the center, where some skeletons and mummies were together. I didn’t had stability equipped since I was in a party were there was a guardian. I stood behind to rez an uplevel that eventually got killed and the mobs re-spawned while I was half way through the rez. Between knock backs and pulls, I counted 11 with a short interval where I felt pretty much like a ping pong ball.

As many players in this thread had voiced their opinions, I will add mine as well. The amount of CC used by mobs don’t make the game more challenging. Being stunned, knocked down or back and be pulled can hardly be considered as a challenge. It is just annoying, simple as that. Spam stability is the answer for that and requires nothing besides an utility.

I, as well, would like the mobs to have better, smarter, AI and actually provide a challenging fight. Enough with the CC. Mai Trin has zero CC and she provides a much better challenge than 20 mummies together pulling and immobilizing you. The Horror is also a good example as a boss can be challenging in a way without rooting or disabling the characters.

TL;dr: Smarter AI and less crowd control.

Stability and stun-breaks yo

Reverence.6915:

Stability and stun-breaks yo

Cooldowns, Yo.

this game is never difficult it seems. Never. It is always annoying. Or unfair. It has too many one-shot kills. Or too many AOEs to dodge. Those things are not “real difficulty”. There must be a magical place where the real difficulty resides. A place unknown to most.

And yet, good players seem to manage the not real difficulty rather well, worse players apparently not so much. But that is all good. It is, after all, no real difficulty.

azyume.6321:

TL;dr: Smarter AI and less crowd control.

OP’s post sounds more like: “I farm, not play the game, I need to get there faster, simplify the mobs to point they just stand there doing nothing”

For Open World PvE, mobs have extremely minimal CC abilities, not to mention overly generalized stats.

Good AI would be good, but removing CC, is no no, since CC is part of Active Combat mechanics, which are barely even used in PvE.

PvE needs:

• Good AI as you said, so that they can utilize Active Defense mechanics better, to make combat more interesting.
• Stat variety on mobs, so that some mobs have more armor and other types of stat combos. 99% of mobs are trash mobs, with low armor, high HP, high dmg per attack, activates a skill once every 3-5 seconds and have abilities that is less potent than mosquito bites (lvl 80 Power-based fine gear is enough to just stand-spam-DPS to win everything in open world PvE).
• More potent abilities, current abilities are extremely pitiful (Risen farmer’s “Risen Arm” turret, which tosses smaller risen arms that poison, however this turret never even hits the player), even for casual (I’m casual PvE adventurer, a supportive one too, who enjoys combat and travelling more than farming, I never tend to play PvP or hard content, unless someone organizes it)
• Better Rank ratios, current one with bad stat and ability designs is horrible, NoRank, Veteran and Elite mobs that just there to die, Champ and above ranks that are almost the actual mobs, but only for group content.

In Guild Wars 1, you could only be cc’d again after getting back to your feet.

I don’t know why they decided to change it for GW2…. but I completely agree it is annoying.

It took a while to get used to, and even though I am used to it and have been playing since launch, there are still times where its like….. holy kitten I’m a kittening ping pong ball getting bounced around.

It is just the way arenanet decided to code the game mechanics, but I do agree, to this day there are still times where its like “Wtf, really?”