fixing zerkers means doing the following:
- fix conditions
- remove defiant
- improve scaling of conditions
- make confusion and blind viable in pve
- make certain boons more useful. Let regen scale better with HP
- balance damage for bosses at something that’s deadly for zerkers yet can be tanked by other gear.It’s not a magical bullet solution but rather solving a set of individual problems compounding the problem.
Defiant would make no difference because control is equally effective with berserker than any other stat combination. Same applies to stuff like Blind and boons (except Regeneration).
Depends. If you slot your utilities for … utility, instead of pure damage and take a set of weapons that’s more suited for support, it does make a difference.
Eg. Hammer for Warrior doesn’t have the most DPS but it does have control which greatsword doesn’t have. Would you give up 100b for a few control abilities?
Currently that’s a non-issue because defiant completely counters hammer abilities.
- Buff Healing Power
- Add more “offensive:” stat types (Assassin’s is a great start.)
- Eliminate PVT from the game. I’m serious. The other defensive types aren’t so bad, but PVT….
Changing berserker gear would lead to another gear being most optimal. And the circle would be completed.
That’s irrational. There’s no reason to believe that it would be true – it could lead to different gear being appropriate to different dungeons or scenarios or bosses.
What is that, that you dislike about zerker? Connotation?
I’m pretty sure it’s the fact that this game thus has no gearing or thinking about gear. You just mindlessly slap on all the zerker of the highest grade you can afford.
Only runes or sigils provide any variance.
If that was intended, that would be fine, but it obviously was not intended, given that the game does not communicate this, and indeed communicates the opposite – and GW2 aren’t the sort to intentionally lie to players.
Depends. If you slot your utilities for … utility, instead of pure damage and take a set of weapons that’s more suited for support, it does make a difference.
Eg. Hammer for Warrior doesn’t have the most DPS but it does have control which greatsword doesn’t have. Would you give up 100b for a few control abilities?
Currently that’s a non-issue because defiant completely counters hammer abilities.
I see we’re playing the same game. Most extreme example, warriors, take 1 utility slot that’s purely damage – signet of fury. Rest are support or control in some cases.
That’s irrational. There’s no reason to believe that it would be true – it could lead to different gear being appropriate to different dungeons or scenarios or bosses.
I’m sure it would.
I’m pretty sure it’s the fact that this game thus has no gearing or thinking about gear. You just mindlessly slap on all the zerker of the highest grade you can afford.
Only runes or sigils provide any variance.
If that was intended, that would be fine, but it obviously was not intended, given that the game does not communicate this, and indeed communicates the opposite – and GW2 aren’t the sort to intentionally lie to players.
Ascended crap was also not intended. But here we have this piece of kitten.
The problem isn’t berserker, the problem is the one-hit kill mechanics. Change it to more (lower) damage over time and healing may become viable.
Remove 1 shot mechanics, until then I see no reason to not put out the max possible damage on any character I play. No more support for me. Berserker all the way.
This sums up the discussion for me as well. Now that I’m back to doing zone completions, virtually EVERY champion I encounter has the same design: 10^10 hit points, 1/2 shot instadown attacks and AoE rings that fill up an entire area or room. PVT gear will not help very much in these situations because of how poorly armor mitigates damage. And since champs are immune to CC, the most effective solution is to burn him down as quickly as possible via high DPS.
A shout/staff guardian is the only viable support role in the game. The elementalist comes close, but a support ele requires far too much juggling of combo fields to be effective, so you might as well go full zerker with that one, too.
(edited by carabidus.6214)
The problem isn’t berserker, the problem is the one-hit kill mechanics. Change it to more (lower) damage over time and healing may become viable.
I’m beginning to think everyone here plays fotm 70+ on daily basis.
The problem isn’t so much zerker gear as it is dodge. As long as the dodge mechanic stays in the game there is simply no reason to ever take a defensive stat. Who cares about having more health and mitigating damage when anything that hits you will kill you in 2 hits and you can just avoid the damage completely with dodge?
To make other gear more effective you would need to rework every mob in the game to do much much less damage but attack much more frequently. Also you would need to increase the effectivness of armor. This would have a number of effects.
1. It would increase the viability of tanky gear by making you actually survive longer with better gear.
2. It would increase the effectiveness of healing gear since you can do medium AOE heals to the group to make them actually survive longer
3. It would balance blind in PvE to not be so crazy OP, and instead make it situationally useful for larger attacks.
4. It would increase the effectiveness of confusion in PvE since enemies would attack much faster.
Once that is accomplished conditions will need to be reworked from the ground up to not be designed to be useless.
Depends. If you slot your utilities for … utility, instead of pure damage and take a set of weapons that’s more suited for support, it does make a difference.
Eg. Hammer for Warrior doesn’t have the most DPS but it does have control which greatsword doesn’t have. Would you give up 100b for a few control abilities?
Currently that’s a non-issue because defiant completely counters hammer abilities.
I see we’re playing the same game. Most extreme example, warriors, take 1 utility slot that’s purely damage – signet of fury. Rest are support or control in some cases.
And here is the real issue. Not so much that zerker is good, but that you can run zerker with support skills and still come out ahead. Meaning that the problem is not that zerker has a massive impact, but that support/defensive related gear has virtually zero impact on the effectiveness of related skills.
This with the caveat that we are talking PVE. PVP is a whole different beast, because that is where the balance focus has been. There you will see that defensive gear comes out better because in a straight up slugging match it actually blunts zerker to some degree.
What is needed is therefore a rethink of how PVE mobs present a threat. ANet needs to focus less on dodge or die “skill” (yeah yeah, “i swing a sword”…), and more on maintaining constant pressure. This will allow the defensive stats to shine more as it will allow people to stay in the fight for a noticeably longer time.
Now in constrast, zerkers and “tanks” have to back off just as often. But zerkers take down the mob noticeably faster.
And here is the real issue. Not so much that zerker is good, but that you can run zerker with support skills and still come out ahead. Meaning that the problem is not that zerker has a massive impact, but that support/defensive related gear has virtually zero impact on the effectiveness of related skills.
Why should toughness have an impact on a shout?
What is needed is therefore a rethink of how PVE mobs present a threat. ANet needs to focus less on dodge or die “skill” (yeah yeah, “i swing a sword”…), and more on maintaining constant pressure. This will allow the defensive stats to shine more as it will allow people to stay in the fight for a noticeably longer time.
That’s by design. A lot of gw1 vets wanted to have mobs with players’ skills, that would include autoattacks and interesting fights. Instead we got slow attacks, most often being projectiles. No amount of whines will change it since it’s a fundamental feature.
Now in constrast, zerkers and “tanks” have to back off just as often. But zerkers take down the mob noticeably faster.
No.
It’s not berseker that needs a fix, the gear itself is fine and fits its purpose. It’s the horrible escalation of other stats and the failed designed of conditions that needs a revamp. Also, group content (such as dungeons) should revolve around synergy and variety. IMO, 5 zerk clones should have the hardest time instead of being the “optimal” but again, its up to the content to put such challenge and not a particular gear set.
You do realise zerk groups choose classes based on their synergy, right?
You do realise zerk groups choose classes based on their synergy, right?
You still fail to understand. Utilities with absolutely no gear to back them up is, in some way, a flaw in the design and one of the things people complain about. No stats for control or boons (or whatever ANet decides are the other roles besides dps) is a flaw and something that people expect to “change” or “fix”. Not everyone plays MMO to have clones of his character besides him, on the contrary; it’s variety what pulls many players to MMOs.
BTW, if you think a Mesmer is defined by giving quickness or a warrior for dropping a banner, or a guardian for a wall of reflection, you clearly have no idea what I’m talking about.
One thing is classes, another are roles.
A class provides you X diversity for roles based on skills/mechanic, once you choose a role, you specialize in such through stats. This is pretty much the basic for every MMO. Removing the Holy Trinity wasn’t suppose to break this but change the roles played. Bad design allowed players to be full dps (role), equip support utilities and complete things successfully and faster, currently the most used strategy for dungeons (of course, everyone is dps, support and control at the same time; where is the team play?). It doesn’t mean it has to be this way, specially since there are a lot of gear set options as rewards from PVE, meant for PVE and not used. The game has A LOT of potential and it is stuck in a lame arcade way of playing it.
(edited by Mesket.5728)
It’s fairly simple.
The devs need to ask themselves why is Berserker NOT the best choice in sPVP, at least not for all professions, while in PVE everyone is “advised” by the pros to use Berserker?
The best answer I can give is because of Attack Speed / Damage.
PVE is full of very very slow attacks that are easily blocked/dodged/blinded but deal an insane amount of damage.
On the other hand, PVP is full of lots of faster attacks, even a Burst Thief kills with a series of high damaging attacks, it’s never a 1-shot KO. It’s always a chain, so blocks/blinds/evades are NOT such life savers like in PVE.
So, my EASY proposal to make Berserker builds less viable in PVE? Reduce mob damage by a small amount, reduce mob hit points considerably and increase, to a great extend, mob attack speed to match player attack speeds.
For example, make the Battle for Claw Island remind players of a big zerg vs zerg fight in WvW, instead of the horrible fight it is now. Now you get 2 huge Armies standing still, exchanging blows every 5 seconds, rinse repeat until one side is down. It’s the most boring fight ever.
More attack speed makes dodges less of a life saver, gives mobs more consistent dps that players must counter, Toughness is a great counter to consistent dps, Vitality counters burst and condition damage. Healing becomes way more effective too.
See how amazing condition builds are in PVP (Rangers/Necromancers?) or how great the control builds are (stun-lock Warriors anyone?). It’s not the stats, the builds, or the professions/skills themselves that are badly designed and need a change. It’s PVE in GENERAL that needs a major overhaul, including mobs/mob-only abilities (Defiant)/dungeons/bosses etc
tl;dr Leave the actual skills/traits as they are now, leave the stat combinations as they are now and change drastically the mechanics in the fights themselves. That’s how you “counter” Berserkers.
To fix berserker, you need to fix support stats. Currently, you can run support with zerker gear. Make reflect/block/immune/evade/blind/knockdown/etc scale with support/tank stats. Unshakable also need to be fixed for half of the conditions to work. Then you need to lessen the OHKOs, add in more sustain damage instead.
I just don’t think they bother to make so many changes.
You do realise zerk groups choose classes based on their synergy, right?
You still fail to understand. Utilities with absolutely no gear to back them up is, in some way, a flaw in the design and one of the things people complain about. No stats for control or boons (or whatever ANet decides are the other roles besides dps) is a flaw and something that people expect to “change” or “fix”. Not everyone plays MMO to have clones of his character besides him, on the contrary; it’s variety what pulls many players to MMOs.
BTW, if you think a Mesmer is defined by giving quickness or a warrior for dropping a banner, or a guardian for a wall of reflection, you clearly have no idea what I’m talking about.
One thing is classes, another are roles.
A class provides you X diversity for roles based on skills/mechanic, once you choose a role, you specialize in such through stats. This is pretty much the basic for every MMO. Removing the Holy Trinity wasn’t suppose to break this but change the roles played. Bad design allowed players to be full dps (role), equip support utilities and complete things successfully and faster, currently the most used strategy for dungeons (of course, everyone is dps, support and control at the same time; where is the team play?). It doesn’t mean it has to be this way, specially since there are a lot of gear set options as rewards from PVE, meant for PVE and not used. The game has A LOT of potential and it is stuck in a lame arcade way of playing it.
You just said dungeons don’t require team play. Can you just write an addendum at the bottom of your posts saying “don’t take me seriously”?
You do realise zerk groups choose classes based on their synergy, right?
You still fail to understand. Utilities with absolutely no gear to back them up is, in some way, a flaw in the design and one of the things people complain about. No stats for control or boons (or whatever ANet decides are the other roles besides dps) is a flaw and something that people expect to “change” or “fix”. Not everyone plays MMO to have clones of his character besides him, on the contrary; it’s variety what pulls many players to MMOs.
BTW, if you think a Mesmer is defined by giving quickness or a warrior for dropping a banner, or a guardian for a wall of reflection, you clearly have no idea what I’m talking about.
One thing is classes, another are roles.
A class provides you X diversity for roles based on skills/mechanic, once you choose a role, you specialize in such through stats. This is pretty much the basic for every MMO. Removing the Holy Trinity wasn’t suppose to break this but change the roles played. Bad design allowed players to be full dps (role), equip support utilities and complete things successfully and faster, currently the most used strategy for dungeons (of course, everyone is dps, support and control at the same time; where is the team play?). It doesn’t mean it has to be this way, specially since there are a lot of gear set options as rewards from PVE, meant for PVE and not used. The game has A LOT of potential and it is stuck in a lame arcade way of playing it.
You just said dungeons don’t require team play. Can you just write an addendum at the bottom of your posts saying “don’t take me seriously”?
I still say they don’t. They should, but they don’t. It’s not a requirement. 5 zerk or pvt or rampager monkeys minding their own business can finish a dungeon.
You should write one saying “I’m playing cool for my forum friends, I don’t really know how to read”.
Stacking might and fury, chaining blocks, putting up reflects and positioning mobs is team work. Just because you don’t see big neon lights saying YOU GOT 6 STACKS OF MIGHT doesn’t mean players in your team aren’t helping you.
Stacking might and fury, chaining blocks, putting up reflects and positioning mobs is team work. J
If you truly need to do all that to complete a dungeon in this game you are worst than I thought.
It’s fairly simple.
The devs need to ask themselves why is Berserker NOT the best choice in sPVP, at least not for all professions, while in PVE everyone is “advised” by the pros to use Berserker?The best answer I can give is because of Attack Speed / Damage.
PVE is full of very very slow attacks that are easily blocked/dodged/blinded but deal an insane amount of damage.
On the other hand, PVP is full of lots of faster attacks, even a Burst Thief kills with a series of high damaging attacks, it’s never a 1-shot KO. It’s always a chain, so blocks/blinds/evades are NOT such life savers like in PVE.
So, my EASY proposal to make Berserker builds less viable in PVE? Reduce mob damage by a small amount, reduce mob hit points considerably and increase, to a great extend, mob attack speed to match player attack speeds.
For example, make the Battle for Claw Island remind players of a big zerg vs zerg fight in WvW, instead of the horrible fight it is now. Now you get 2 huge Armies standing still, exchanging blows every 5 seconds, rinse repeat until one side is down. It’s the most boring fight ever.
More attack speed makes dodges less of a life saver, gives mobs more consistent dps that players must counter, Toughness is a great counter to consistent dps, Vitality counters burst and condition damage. Healing becomes way more effective too.
See how amazing condition builds are in PVP (Rangers/Necromancers?) or how great the control builds are (stun-lock Warriors anyone?). It’s not the stats, the builds, or the professions/skills themselves that are badly designed and need a change. It’s PVE in GENERAL that needs a major overhaul, including mobs/mob-only abilities (Defiant)/dungeons/bosses etc
tl;dr Leave the actual skills/traits as they are now, leave the stat combinations as they are now and change drastically the mechanics in the fights themselves. That’s how you “counter” Berserkers.
The thing most people in this thread are going on about is how to make other sets viable – not how to make zerkers less viable.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – doing what you suggest will just make Knight’s the new berserker.
Your zerk might, is the same as his rampager might or his pvt might… see how there are no roles? Everyone is the same and provides the same, there is so much might you can get, whoever gives it in the team is the same (some classes has easier access to it but doesn’t mean that’s a support role). Fury is always the same. Prot is always the same. So who casts it is irrelevant.
That has nothing to do with anything.
You said dungeons don’t require teamplay, I mentioned examples of teamplay and now for some reason you’re now claiming I’m “worst than I thought”.
It’s fairly simple.
The devs need to ask themselves why is Berserker NOT the best choice in sPVP, at least not for all professions, while in PVE everyone is “advised” by the pros to use Berserker?The best answer I can give is because of Attack Speed / Damage.
PVE is full of very very slow attacks that are easily blocked/dodged/blinded but deal an insane amount of damage.
On the other hand, PVP is full of lots of faster attacks, even a Burst Thief kills with a series of high damaging attacks, it’s never a 1-shot KO. It’s always a chain, so blocks/blinds/evades are NOT such life savers like in PVE.
So, my EASY proposal to make Berserker builds less viable in PVE? Reduce mob damage by a small amount, reduce mob hit points considerably and increase, to a great extend, mob attack speed to match player attack speeds.
For example, make the Battle for Claw Island remind players of a big zerg vs zerg fight in WvW, instead of the horrible fight it is now. Now you get 2 huge Armies standing still, exchanging blows every 5 seconds, rinse repeat until one side is down. It’s the most boring fight ever.
More attack speed makes dodges less of a life saver, gives mobs more consistent dps that players must counter, Toughness is a great counter to consistent dps, Vitality counters burst and condition damage. Healing becomes way more effective too.
See how amazing condition builds are in PVP (Rangers/Necromancers?) or how great the control builds are (stun-lock Warriors anyone?). It’s not the stats, the builds, or the professions/skills themselves that are badly designed and need a change. It’s PVE in GENERAL that needs a major overhaul, including mobs/mob-only abilities (Defiant)/dungeons/bosses etc
tl;dr Leave the actual skills/traits as they are now, leave the stat combinations as they are now and change drastically the mechanics in the fights themselves. That’s how you “counter” Berserkers.
The thing most people in this thread are going on about is how to make other sets viable – not how to make zerkers less viable.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – doing what you suggest will just make Knight’s the new berserker.
Not quite. It would make toughness a viable consideration. And there are a pile of those out there.
That has nothing to do with anything.
You said dungeons don’t require teamplay, I mentioned examples of teamplay and now for some reason you’re now claiming I’m “worst than I thought”.
Because I said dungeons don’t require team work. You mentioned examples of “teamwork” that are not required to complete a dungeon. You are not responding to my statement either.
Honestly, I don’t want to spend an hour at the office in a “no you” discussion. Try to understand the point and don’t answer with examples of how the game is since this topic is talking about changes so we are all in the magical land of hypothetical situations.
Have you ever played a game that requires tactical organization? like the very basic, sniper to the tower, machine provide cover, assault move ahead? ok,… that is the kind of things that are missing here. There is no “sniper”, nor “machine-gun” nor assault, simply because there are no defined roles. We can invent our owns based on what my class can provide as useful but its not really a role I’m playing. See what I’m talking about? I’m not trying to kill zerk class. On the contrary, I want it to shine at dps as I want a support role to shine in support or a control rol to shine at control. Of course, not only stat balance has to change; game content has to change as well to make that happen.
Well technically, most dungeons don’t even “require” five players. I’m pretty sure you can solo content in trinity MMOs too.
The fact is however, a lack of teamwork through appropriate gearing, traiting and skill usage results in 4-8 hour Arah p4 runs and QQing about Simin being bugged, while people who do gear, trait and use skills appropriately (you know… teamwork) clear it in like 40 minutes or something.
Can you tell me how criticising my skill level was relevant to this all, by the way? It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, and yet you called me out on it.
If you think it’s so OP in PvE then go do fractals on full berserker gear and tell me how many times you’ve died.
Berserker is already being called the “noob gear”. So if anything, it should be buffed.
(edited by Hermes.7014)
If you think it’s so OP in PvE then go do fractals on full berserker gear and tell me how many times you’ve died.
I have done that already died 0 times downed 4-5 times in total with a decent group.
And i use melee 99% of the time.
(edited by tom.7468)
If you think it’s so OP in PvE then go do fractals on full berserker gear and tell me how many times you’ve died.
You don’t use zerker in fractal?
I do, but I’m on a full dodge build.
The fact is however, a lack of teamwork through appropriate gearing, traiting and skill usage results in 4-8 hour Arah p4 runs and QQing about Simin being bugged, while people who do gear, trait and use skills appropriately (you know… teamwork) clear it in like 40 minutes or something.
Again answering with examples of the current game… your definition of teamwork is rather poor and flat thinking considering all GW2 can offer. I did Simin last year and I don’t remember anything like teamplay in that fight. It’s a stupid spark herd and plain dps on her. Nothing difficult but a lame dps barrier. Numbers =/= skill.
Can you tell me how criticising my skill level was relevant to this all, by the way? It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, and yet you called me out on it.
I’ll tell you again. You mentioned those “required” teamwork examples. If you “require” to do that to complete it, you must be a bad player. Otherwise you can admit you didn’t comprehend my post when I said “require” in the first place.
(edited by Mesket.5728)
the point is that zerker groups kill stuff 10X faster…
Often a zerker Group can kill bosses before they even deals enough damage to a playe
But the worse thing is a non zerker Group would take 10-20 minutes to kill some bosses :| that makes running anything non zerker boring…..
Now if you balance around zerkers you punish non zerkers, but if you don t, zerker are so effective that bypass mechanics.
And that is possible because of PvP “balance”.
Imho a solution could be to make ranged combat a more viable…..
Forcing parties to spread lowers insane DPS (just the time loss when you have to ress someone, but also kitten ons and stuff) and since ranged dps is lower it solves other issues.
For example they could delete scripts that force bosses to avoid to use ranged Attacks while Whole party is melee.
Also Adding ranged Attacks with reasonable Flying speed so at melee you can t evade them but with ranged targets priority so if all party goes melee they have a hard time and need thoughness.
If they spread, the party composition AND tactics start to be more flexible and varied.
Also as i Always say add random events in dungeons.
While I’m not advocating this, the only way to “fix” beserkers is to either
a) make enemies who are vulnerable to conditions but relatively impervious to direct damage.
or
b) remove beserkers as an option. Then people have to decide between power + precision, power + critical damage, and precision + critical damage. There would also be more variety in the last stat (healing, vitality, or toughness).
The simple truth is that the synergy from power, precision, and crit damage will always be superior in PvE.
(edited by TooBz.3065)
The fact is however, a lack of teamwork through appropriate gearing, traiting and skill usage results in 4-8 hour Arah p4 runs and QQing about Simin being bugged, while people who do gear, trait and use skills appropriately (you know… teamwork) clear it in like 40 minutes or something.
Again answering with examples of the current game… your definition of teamwork is rather poor and flat thinking considering all GW2 can offer. I did Simin last year and I don’t remember anything like teamplay in that fight. It’s a stupid spark herd and plain dps on her. Nothing difficult but a lame dps barrier. Numbers =/= skill.
Can you tell me how criticising my skill level was relevant to this all, by the way? It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, and yet you called me out on it.
I’ll tell you again. You mentioned those “required” teamwork examples. If you “require” to do that to complete it, you must be a bad player. Otherwise you can admit you didn’t comprehend my post when I said “require” in the first place.
For the sake of arguing, my definition of “require” is to complete content within a reasonable timeframe (otherwise like I said, we can just say only one player is “required”, which is technically true but doesn’t really add anything to the discussion).
Teamwork, like I said through appropriate gearing, traiting and skill usage turns Arah p4 from being a marathon to being cleared in a reasonable amount of time. Therefore, since it enables you to clear that path in a reasonable timeframe, and not working together results in 4 to 8 hour horror stories, yes teamwork is required.
The fact is however, a lack of teamwork through appropriate gearing, traiting and skill usage results in 4-8 hour Arah p4 runs and QQing about Simin being bugged, while people who do gear, trait and use skills appropriately (you know… teamwork) clear it in like 40 minutes or something.
Again answering with examples of the current game… your definition of teamwork is rather poor and flat thinking considering all GW2 can offer. I did Simin last year and I don’t remember anything like teamplay in that fight. It’s a stupid spark herd and plain dps on her. Nothing difficult but a lame dps barrier. Numbers =/= skill.
Can you tell me how criticising my skill level was relevant to this all, by the way? It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, and yet you called me out on it.
I’ll tell you again. You mentioned those “required” teamwork examples. If you “require” to do that to complete it, you must be a bad player. Otherwise you can admit you didn’t comprehend my post when I said “require” in the first place.
For the sake of arguing, my definition of “require” is to complete content within a reasonable timeframe (otherwise like I said, we can just say only one player is “required”, which is technically true but doesn’t really add anything to the discussion).
Teamwork, like I said through appropriate gearing, traiting and skill usage turns Arah p4 from being a marathon to being cleared in a reasonable amount of time. Therefore, since it enables you to clear that path in a reasonable timeframe, and not working together results in 4 to 8 hour horror stories, yes teamwork is required.
So its not required to complete a run but of your preference at most.
Still doesn’t counter-argument my previous statement:
Your zerk might, is the same as his rampager might or his pvt might… see how there are no roles? Everyone is the same and provides the same, there is so much might you can get, whoever gives it in the team is the same (some classes has easier access to it but doesn’t mean that’s a support role). Fury is always the same. Prot is always the same. So who casts it is irrelevant.
Roles are none existent in GW2. If everyone wears Zerk, then everyone is going after one goal, apply as much dps as possible. Dropping might follow the same purpose. Same goes for dropping quickness, fury, etc… its all DPS oriented. The least used buffs vigor, stability can be applied by anyone using any gear set. Again, not a role for someone to be in charge of: “hey he is our support guy, he will be keeping us buffed all the time” – Never heard yet on GW2. Reflection walls? (or other control oriented skills) again, any Mesmer or Guardian can do it no matter what gear they have. Do you ever had a “control” character in your party? “hey he is in charge of control, he will be removing defiant and interrupting that big skills everytime the boss has it ready”… don’t think so. Specialized Roles are not really needed. No roles, no role playing game. That is why I keep calling this game a lame arcade.
Imho a solution could be to make ranged combat a more viable…..
We have it already, it’s called fractals of the mists. You should learn to play if you don’t use ranged weapons against most of the bosses.
Forcing parties to spread lowers insane DPS (just the time loss when you have to ress someone, but also kitten ons and stuff) and since ranged dps is lower it solves other issues.
Spreading parties means support becomes useless since it has limited range.
For example they could delete scripts that force bosses to avoid to use ranged Attacks while Whole party is melee.
I’m pretty sure there are no such scripts. Technically, it’s all based on priorities.
Also Adding ranged Attacks with reasonable Flying speed so at melee you can t evade them but with ranged targets priority so if all party goes melee they have a hard time and need thoughness.
If they spread, the party composition AND tactics start to be more flexible and varied.
Imbued shaman for 99,99% of gw population? Still almost every party stacks heavies while not stacking during fight.
While I’m not advocating this, the only way to “fix” beserkers is to either
a) make enemies who are vulnerable to conditions but relatively impervious to direct damage.
Dredges and lupicus are like that already.
b) remove beserkers as an option. Then people have to decide between power + precision, power + critical damage, and precision + critical damage. There would also be more variety in the last stat (healing, vitality, or toughness).
Remove zerker and valkyrie would probably be next one optimal gear. And in few months “So how to fix Valkyrie?” appears.
It’s fairly simple.
The devs need to ask themselves why is Berserker NOT the best choice in sPVP, at least not for all professions, while in PVE everyone is “advised” by the pros to use Berserker?The best answer I can give is because of Attack Speed / Damage.
…
tl;dr Leave the actual skills/traits as they are now, leave the stat combinations as they are now and change drastically the mechanics in the fights themselves. That’s how you “counter” Berserkers.
Not exactly. Plenty of people wear Berserker in sPvP actually. While close you are not quite hitting the nail on the head.
Being a full berserker makes you very vulnerable to being killed by roaming enemies. But makes you a great bunker buster. However there is a basic setup to sPvP teams. (Note: sPvP berserker has VIT on it unlike PvE berserker so it is not as squishy)
2-3 Support.
1-2 Bunkers.
1-2 Roamers.
The supporters are exactly how they sound, often turning the tide of a battle in seconds with their reflects, healing AOE and boons or conditions. They need to be tough but also have moderate DPS since they are some of the main source of damage. Soldier Knight/Soldier/Carrion are their go to sets.
The Bunkers just need to hold a node and live for as long as is possible, until their support or roamers show up. They are just damage soakers. Clerics/Shamans/Soldier are their go to sets.
Roamers or bunker busters or (bursters) are Pure burst damage builds, their goal to down a bunker before his team can arrive to support, or to quickly remove high priority targets from a group fight. They roll Pure Berserker/Rampager.
See the reason you have a mix isn’t because people are afraid to wear berserker. Plenty of teams have some monsters DPSers that do indeed wear pure DPS stats. The reason you do see the mix is because we have roles to play that actually matter. Having defensive stats actually makes you hard to kill in PvP, Having support skills can actually save your ally from death regularly, and having High DPS truly matters. In PvP we can build for these roles and better yet we can stick to them in a team based environment where they are not only useful but needed.
An all Bunker team would have about as much trouble as an all support team or an all DPS team in sPvP It is a requirement to have different strengths to your team sometimes you need to be able to hunker down on 2 nodes, and sometimes you really need to be able to take one fast. your team needs to facilitate all those roles and so different sets of gear become optimal for the different roles.
So yes Changing the mechanics of the fight would fix berserker but not the real problem.
The problem is that in PvE we are all self healing, stun breaking, Condition removing, dodging, DPS machines. an all cleric wearing guardian doesn’t live any longer than the all berserker guardian. His reflect doesn’t last longer, his shouts don’t cooldown faster and his revive isn’t more powerful. In other words he doesn’t bunker or support any better than the guy in Full berserker. But the guy in full berserker is dealing 300% more DPS while still using all the same support skills.
What this means is that no matter what they change, unless it is making roles more important, the same gear will be optimal for a majority, if not all of us.
Tequatl has proven this. A new hard boss that cannot be crit on, making Berserker 2/3 useless. Does that mean that clerics is suddenly good? What about Knights? Valk? Carrion? Nope! Soldier has replaced Berserker for this fight, and everyone trying to Min/Max the fight are now wearing full soldier.
If every enemy in the world became non critable It would nerf berserker yes, and it would get rid of the full berserker parties. But the problem still persists. because the problem isn’t the gear, it has nothing to do with the gear at all. All optimized parties would become Soldier parties because we are all playing the same role we all need the same gear. In other words we would just have another berserker.
There is nothing wrong with berserker or any gear stat for that matter. The problem is that we are all so similar in a party that of course the same gear will be optimal for all of us.
(edited by Lokki.1092)
Colesy you are talking about maximizing DPS. But where is the defense part? If you run in a full offensive group you dont need any or only a small amount of defensive support (stun, protection, regeneration, slow, blind,……) the only required thing is a dodge at the right time and pure damage.
I would say berserker gear is ok, if the content would get more chalanging for beeing faster. but instead your are faster, kill bosses before they can react/become dangerous making the dungeon even easier.
Defensive gear on the other hand, makes fights only harder most of the time, because they are 3-5 times longer. But you get no benefit for choosing defensive stats. You still take a lot of damage, maybe you survive one or two hits more, but thats it. It is not noticable compared to the damage boost you get from full zerker gear.
Support stats like healingpower or boon duration are also useless, because the boon duration without traits/stats is high enough, that most skills have a 50% uptime, except ultis. Why should I take boon duration, if my team has a 100% uptime of 25 might stacks and fury. Or conditionduration on a boss with 100% 25 vulnerability….
i dont understand why people want to “fix” berserker. there is nothing to fix. it is fine.
and other than that its 100 times more exciting that you are able to provide the best support and deal alot of damage at the same time.
before the release of gw2 it was already known that:
1. there wont be trinity
2. there wont be tanks
3. there wont be real healer
i dont understand why people want to “fix” berserker. there is nothing to fix. it is fine.
This.
I do see the crutch of some ppl. Seeing the PvE DG Meta being “5 DPS and go” instead of something more structured packing support, CC and Condition on top of raw DPS in equal measure. I agree somehow.
But, Zerker gear is not the issue.
Encounters are. Other gear options are. Skills not being affected by gear are part of the issue too.
i dont understand why people want to “fix” berserker. there is nothing to fix. it is fine.
This.
*I do see the crutch of some ppl. Seeing the PvE DG Meta being “5 DPS and go” instead of something more structured packing support, CC and Condition on top of raw DPS in equal measure. I agree somehow.
But, Zerker gear is not the issue.
Encounters are. Other gear options are. Skills not being affected by gear are part of the issue too*.
My point exactly, thanks.
5 dps and go is a fine tactic in a (why is five dollars censored?) indie game but a huge disappointment for a game with such production.
(edited by Mesket.5728)
Colesy you are talking about maximizing DPS. But where is the defense part? If you run in a full offensive group you dont need any or only a small amount of defensive support (stun, protection, regeneration, slow, blind,……) the only required thing is a dodge at the right time and pure damage.
Maybe in cof. Usually you can’t dodge everything. This should illustrate that.
I would say berserker gear is ok, if the content would get more chalanging for beeing faster. but instead your are faster, kill bosses before they can react/become dangerous making the dungeon even easier.
You can’t kill a boss before he reacts. It’s about killing boss before his pressures you.
i dont understand why people want to “fix” berserker. there is nothing to fix. it is fine.
This.
*I do see the crutch of some ppl. Seeing the PvE DG Meta being “5 DPS and go” instead of something more structured packing support, CC and Condition on top of raw DPS in equal measure. I agree somehow.
But, Zerker gear is not the issue.
Encounters are. Other gear options are. Skills not being affected by gear are part of the issue too*.
My point exactly, thanks.
5 dps and go is a fine tactic in a (why is five dollars censored?) indie game but a huge disappointment for a game with such production.
u know, there are people who are playing to become better. people who want to learn how to do things better. people who see a challenge in finishing content faster.
if i use pvt or other tanky gear i cannot become better because it wont make any difference if i get hit and tank the damage or play well and dodge/block/whatever at the right time.
they informed the people there will be no trinity before they released the game.
they informed the people there will be no tanks or healer.
maybe you should simply learn to like the fighting and profession system in gw2 and get used to it.
or try to find a game which fulfills all your personal wishes.
gw2 is very well made. its only lacking challenging content.
(edited by NoTrigger.8396)
u know, there are people who are playing to become better. people who want to learn how to do things better. people who see a challenge in finishing content faster.
I have 2 things to say about this. a) Yes, I understand. And this happens when there is no real challenge. You invent one. b) If so, the gear you use would only create a category. We did it in such time using PVT, or Cleric, or Rampager. If time is the challenge, then gear is the handicap.
if i use pvt or other tanky gear i cannot become better because it wont make any difference if i get hit and tank the damage or play well and dodge/block/whatever at the right time.
Screw tank gear, I never asked for them; don’t be so short sighted. There are more roles to exist but tanks and healers. It is nothing but ANet fault to put tank and heal stats in a game with no tanks and healers. HUGE flaw on their side. Shows horrible inside communication between teams.
What I’d like to see is something like this (don’t take it as it is, they have a whole team to make this idea better):
Change Boon duration for Boon Potency: Increase duration AND Scale buffs better. Might giving more power, fury more than 20% crit, etc. This would make support viable, wanted and used as such role inside dungeons and group events. If boons scale properly having a set for it, they would be played as a role putting back the R in MMORPG.
This is just a silly idea of mine, I’m sure ANet can do better but they are all into stupid changes like adding more wings to the game.
(There are more serious issues on the game core like support not giving contribution to events and fights. Support provided won’t even count for a bronze on events, only damage applies)
This is why pve and pvp should be entirely separate, conditions in pve should be increased in both duration and damage and also they should crit (if they don’t already because all my characters use berserker), another problem is mob variety, there should be mobs that take increased damage from certain kinds of damage (physical, condition…), another thing I hate in this game is the 1HKO that most “hard” content has with makes berserker the best gear in the game at this time (I don’t even change gear on the new Teq fight because I can just dodge the waves and still have the same power as PVT so why bother in getting another set of gear…)
Roles are none existent in GW2. If everyone wears Zerk, then everyone is going after one goal, apply as much dps as possible
Tank holds aggro so DPS-ers can DPS as much as possible.
Healer keeps players healed up so they can DPS as much as possible.
Don’t pretend that giving roles doesn’t change the fact that the ultimate goal is to maximise DPS.
I’m going to chime back in here and say I’m very against changing the gear itself. If you do that, people will just switch to the next most offensive gear.
The problem is a large portion of gw2 non fractal pve content just encourages having your full team go maximum dps because of easily dodged and/or 1 shot attacks instead of applying pressure through sustained damage.
IMO, the ideal would be having some pressure through weaker harder to avoid damage while still mixing in some harder hits.
Roles are none existent in GW2. If everyone wears Zerk, then everyone is going after one goal, apply as much dps as possible
Tank holds aggro so DPS-ers can DPS as much as possible.
Healer keeps players healed up so they can DPS as much as possible.Don’t pretend that giving roles doesn’t change the fact that the ultimate goal is to maximise DPS.
Exactly, on an average mmo party set up: Tank is focused on tanking. Dps on applying damage and healer on healing. The overall is dps doing as much damage as they can; but the tank and the healer are still doing something else.
In GW2 we don’t have tanks and heals which would’ve been a great and original change, but…
Does your support party member focus solely on support? or your control guy in CC and interrupts? I guess not, they are doing max dps like the others but using this very one cooldown every time they find it appropriate. Again, it is not the players fault but the content (and mechanics) not demanding it.
This is the key difference in how you play in team in GW2. Everyone is doing the same with the tiny difference of wasting one or the other cooldown. Things everyone else can do with the same rate of success. There are no assigned roles and no specialization.
The tank and healer are aggroing the boss and spamming heals so that the party as a whole can maximise their DPS. In GW2, you have classes that can mitigate damage received and increase damage dealt in order to maximise DPS, you’re just not required to have tanks and healers in order to achieve this, instead it’s a case of take classes that can stack might, fury, protection, reflects and aegis without it having to be one specific class for the set role.
But all I’m seeing from you is QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ i hate zerker give me trinity when the game was quite clearly advertised as no trinity.
Why should toughness have an impact on a shout?
Because it’s tough to shout hard enough?
Also why does Engi pistol have a flame thrower switch?
Also also where is my Thief getting her bullets from?
I think we can throw real life logic partly out the window when it comes to stats.
Roles are none existent in GW2. If everyone wears Zerk, then everyone is going after one goal, apply as much dps as possible
Tank holds aggro so DPS-ers can DPS as much as possible.
Healer keeps players healed up so they can DPS as much as possible.Don’t pretend that giving roles doesn’t change the fact that the ultimate goal is to maximise DPS.
Exactly, on an average mmo party set up: Tank is focused on tanking. Dps on applying damage and healer on healing. The overall is dps doing as much damage as they can; but the tank and the healer are still doing something else.
In GW2 we don’t have tanks and heals which would’ve been a great and original change, but…
Does your support party member focus solely on support? or your control guy in CC and interrupts? I guess not, they are doing max dps like the others but using this very one cooldown every time they find it appropriate. Again, it is not the players fault but the content (and mechanics) not demanding it.
This is the key difference in how you play in team in GW2. Everyone is doing the same with the tiny difference of wasting one or the other cooldown. Things everyone else can do with the same rate of success. There are no assigned roles and no specialization.
Not all professions/builds are great at providing Projectile Reflections, Fury buffs, Might Stacks, AoE Quickness and AoE Stealth. It’s not like everyone can AoE cure conditions, immobilize mobs at key parts or provide Swiftness. You are really over-simplying things.
In a party with 5 similar DPS Warriors yes everyone is doing the exact same thing but it’s not like that’s true for the whole game.
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