Guild Wars 2

When Bethesda Softworks released Elder Scrolls Online, the industry took notice as the publisher fearlessly announced a subscription model, rather than going free-to-play like its direct competitor Guild Wars 2 (NCsoft).

This just in with the digital games market data. I see other NCsoft games but GW2 is missing in there.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/us-digital-games-market/

I know GW2 is doing well but I would like to see some data someday xD

Maybe when GW2 goes subscription, they will mention it in the article. /shrug

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Maybe when GW2 goes subscription, they will mention it in the article. /shrug

TERA, RIFT, SWTOR are F2P anyways, they do have sub but optional.

DJRiful.3749:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Maybe when GW2 goes subscription, they will mention it in the article. /shrug

TERA, RIFT, SWTOR are F2P anyways, they do have sub but optional.

All of them are ex-P2P that moved to F2P and also have a subscription option, while GW2 was always B2P.

Aye, that is true.

GW2 could not survive as a sub based game.

It simply does not offer enough.

In terms of the list – it’s interesting how a 10yr old game still has so much of the market share vs all the newer games.

I guess that just further enforces, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.

Azreell.1568:

GW2 could not survive as a sub based game.

No game will ever survive as a sub based MMO, at least in the western market.
WoW, EvE and Final Fantasy are pretty much the only sub games that still survive as P2P, ESO and Wildstar will become F2P soon or later (specially ESO).

also pay attention to each year total earning, from 2010 onward total earning/income/ profit from whole industry is dropping/lowering each year and 2015 estimation is lower than all.

Belzebu.3912:

Azreell.1568:

GW2 could not survive as a sub based game.

No game will ever survive as a sub based MMO, at least in the western market.
WoW, EvE and Final Fantasy are pretty much the only sub games that still survive as P2P, ESO and Wildstar will become F2P soon or later (specially ESO).

I’m confused by your statement.

First you say no game will ever survive as a sub based mmo – then you go on to list games which are surviving, thriving and doing well as sub based games.

You basically disproved your own point. <boggle>

Also, You can’t predict any game going F2P. Some will of course but that is not because it is a superior model.

F2P is nothing more then a trend which has been proven to offer far less beyond box price worth for many people as the above listed stats have proven.

The majority of the mmorpg market share still belongs to Wow – a sub based game.

So one could make the assumption the majority of mmorpg players find better value in sub based games then cash shop games.

also same report says that eso has nearly 800k subscribers and wild star is doing good as well and in 2014 these 2 games eso and wild star will change the chart.

Yeah, I wrote it wrongly, I meant no new game will ever survive, with the exception of the 3 games I mentioned, no other game will survive as P2P.

Of course you can’t predict for sure, but following the trend where almost 100% of the “newest” P2P MMO turned F2P.

saye.9304:

also same report says that eso has nearly 800k subscribers and wild star is doing good as well and in 2014 these 2 games eso and wild star will change the chart.

Wild Star is Ncsofts new baby – they already are receiving pretty hefty content patches.

I can’t blame them – it’s basically GW2 2.0 or in fact more along the lines of what GW2’s combat system should have been.

Definitely a more in depth game so it is attracting a larger audience atm.

where almost 100% of the “newest” P2P MMO turned F2P..

Once You are confusing me.

FFXIV is quite new still(its re release aka a realm reborn) and its not F2P.

I really don’t think you understand what you post.

Hold on, what makes GW2 a direct competitor more so then oh, I don’t know, games that are actually sub?

Azreell.1568:

saye.9304:

also same report says that eso has nearly 800k subscribers and wild star is doing good as well and in 2014 these 2 games eso and wild star will change the chart.

Wild Star is Ncsofts new baby – they already are receiving pretty hefty content patches.

I can’t blame them – it’s basically GW2 2.0 or in fact more along the lines of what GW2’s combat system should have been.

Definitely a more in depth game so it is attracting a larger audience atm.

gw2 with its LS thing which was not receive well by players, content that can be finished in few hours but no expansion in sight. you get LS instead.
well i believe gw2 original game released in 2012 was/is great game better than most of games in the chart, but the direction anet is taking with this game will push gw2 out of top mmos even more, of course it is not doom and gloom but gw2 wont be among top mmos like this.

Azreell.1568:

Once You are confusing me.

FFXIV is quite new still(its re release aka a realm reborn) and its not F2P.

I really don’t think you understand what you post.

Yes, FF is one of the 3 exceptions I wrote, and good part of what holds FF as P2P is the eastern market, if that game was launched only in the western market or if published separately, it would be F2P by now.

That is why I wrote “almost 100%”

EDIT: Also note that from the top 10 sub games list, only 2 are currently P2P, the rest are F2P with a VIP system.

Azreell.1568:

GW2 could not survive as a sub based game.

Thank all that is worship-able!!

BTW, this thread is likely to get closed…..this forum is not for comparisons with other MMOs (not MY rules).

Azreell.1568:

saye.9304:

also same report says that eso has nearly 800k subscribers and wild star is doing good as well and in 2014 these 2 games eso and wild star will change the chart.

Wild Star is Ncsofts new baby – they already are receiving pretty hefty content patches.

I can’t blame them – it’s basically GW2 2.0 or in fact more along the lines of what GW2’s combat system should have been.

Definitely a more in depth game so it is attracting a larger audience atm.

Wildstar is the game for all those elitist hardcore players that were never the target of GW2 and that only brought ANet to give us ascended gear and Teq 2.0 wasteland.

In the end i think its more WoW style graphics with EQ2 level raiding while it don’t seem to have really much content when people after 1 week were already complaining that there is nothing much to do.

However … people that like those kind of games should better go there instead of turning GW2 into another EQ raidstyle game.

Beldin.5498:

Azreell.1568:

saye.9304:

also same report says that eso has nearly 800k subscribers and wild star is doing good as well and in 2014 these 2 games eso and wild star will change the chart.

Wild Star is Ncsofts new baby – they already are receiving pretty hefty content patches.

I can’t blame them – it’s basically GW2 2.0 or in fact more along the lines of what GW2’s combat system should have been.

Definitely a more in depth game so it is attracting a larger audience atm.

Wildstar is the game for all those elitist hardcore players that were never the target of GW2 and that only brought ANet to give us ascended gear and Teq 2.0 wasteland.

In the end i think its more WoW style graphics with EQ2 level raiding while it don’t seem to have really much content when people after 1 week were already complaining that there is nothing much to do.

However … people that like those kind of games should better go there instead of turning GW2 into another EQ raidstyle game.

99.9% of guilds in Wildstar have yet to complete all the raid content – just an fyi.

So less exaggerations plz.

On a side note – you are correct. GW2 is a very casual much less in depth game. It’s target audience is those who can invest small amounts of time here and there to play.

There is nothing wrong with that at all.

Azreell.1568:

Beldin.5498:

Azreell.1568:

saye.9304:

also same report says that eso has nearly 800k subscribers and wild star is doing good as well and in 2014 these 2 games eso and wild star will change the chart.

Wild Star is Ncsofts new baby – they already are receiving pretty hefty content patches.

I can’t blame them – it’s basically GW2 2.0 or in fact more along the lines of what GW2’s combat system should have been.

Definitely a more in depth game so it is attracting a larger audience atm.

Wildstar is the game for all those elitist hardcore players that were never the target of GW2 and that only brought ANet to give us ascended gear and Teq 2.0 wasteland.

In the end i think its more WoW style graphics with EQ2 level raiding while it don’t seem to have really much content when people after 1 week were already complaining that there is nothing much to do.

However … people that like those kind of games should better go there instead of turning GW2 into another EQ raidstyle game.

99.9% of guilds in Wildstar have yet to complete all the raid content – just an fyi.

So less exaggerations plz.

On a side note – you are correct. GW2 is a very casual much less in depth game. It’s target audience is those who can invest small amounts of time here and there to play.

There is nothing wrong with that at all.

That was also “normal” in EQ2. Mostly just 1 or 2 guilds on a server ever managed the hardest raid before the next expansion with new level cap. So that say exactly nothing about whats there left for people who are not interested in raiding 24/7.

I read the forums now and then out of interest and a lot i see is people that complain that the server are empty, to hard content, and elitist that tell them to go and play something else.

I really don’t believe that game would stay with more than maybe 100k subscriptions for long .. but of course i’m not really an oracle

DJRiful.3749:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Maybe when GW2 goes subscription, they will mention it in the article. /shrug

TERA, RIFT, SWTOR are F2P anyways, they do have sub but optional.

SWTOR’s sub is Optional In Name Only.

sure it’s “free” but their F2P restrictions are so ridiculous that there is almost literally no point in playing SWTOR without a subscription.

JMadFour.9730:

DJRiful.3749:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Maybe when GW2 goes subscription, they will mention it in the article. /shrug

TERA, RIFT, SWTOR are F2P anyways, they do have sub but optional.

SWTOR’s sub is Optional In Name Only.

sure it’s “free” but their F2P restrictions are so ridiculous that there is almost literally no point in playing SWTOR without a subscription.

Was the same in LotRO. We started it when it went F2P, but everybody in the end bought a subscription. Only thing is that maybe after 6-8 months you can buy the most interesting areas from our stipend and then really drop the subscripton.

However after that time everybody i started the game with, already left it.

Beldin.5498:

Azreell.1568:

saye.9304:

also same report says that eso has nearly 800k subscribers and wild star is doing good as well and in 2014 these 2 games eso and wild star will change the chart.

Wild Star is Ncsofts new baby – they already are receiving pretty hefty content patches.

I can’t blame them – it’s basically GW2 2.0 or in fact more along the lines of what GW2’s combat system should have been.

Definitely a more in depth game so it is attracting a larger audience atm.

Wildstar is the game for all those elitist hardcore players that were never the target of GW2 and that only brought ANet to give us ascended gear and Teq 2.0 wasteland.

In the end i think its more WoW style graphics with EQ2 level raiding while it don’t seem to have really much content when people after 1 week were already complaining that there is nothing much to do.

However … people that like those kind of games should better go there instead of turning GW2 into another EQ raidstyle game.

nah, I think there a more people than “elitists” who enjoy a game that does not offer 100% facerolling content. But on the other hand, that hagakure thing probably is true, you cannot recapture the spirit of an age. Every game today has probably to be fast auto-gratification to be really succesful. And after an initial high, I think WS fell back behind GW2 really fast. You are blatantly wrong about the content part though. WS has way more content at launch than GW2 has after 2 years. Personally I liked the gameplay a lot, it did not deliver at all in the story department though (yeah, I am probably weird like that, having priorities on story. GW2 storytelling is really, really bad, WS storytelling is barely noticeable).

they said ESO will give us the elder scroll experience we’re used to, what we get is a faction based MMO with some (and i use that word lightly) TES influence.
wildstar is suppose to be GW2 2.0, what we get is a GW2-like battle system with generic content.
i really don’t see what ppl complain about, GW2 still has more then the two you mentioned.
even archage, a game promised to be a new experience, is filled with generic quests and a story that makes my eyes glaze within the first 10 seconds.

sorudo.9054:

even archage, a game promised to be a new experience, is filled with generic quests and a story that makes my eyes glaze within the first 10 seconds.

But they have “cool” mounts like that .. rofl

sorudo.9054:

they said ESO will give us the elder scroll experience we’re used to, what we get is a faction based MMO with some (and i use that word lightly) TES influence.
wildstar is suppose to be GW2 2.0, what we get is a GW2-like battle system with generic content.
i really don’t see what ppl complain about, GW2 still has more then the two you mentioned.
even archage, a game promised to be a new experience, is filled with generic quests and a story that makes my eyes glaze within the first 10 seconds.

I think, even with dodge buttons, themepark MMORPG have run their course. WoW (before you start foaming at the mouth now, I have played that game 3 hours on a guest account sent to me by a friend and really disliked it) has explored everything that is to be done in this territory. But sandbox games do not have mass appeal – so mmorpg will certainly become a niche phenomenon. Just look at the big promising launches of the recent past. Even mega-IPs like Star Wars and Elder Scrolls were not able to recapture the initial WoW success.

Algreg.3629:

sorudo.9054:

they said ESO will give us the elder scroll experience we’re used to, what we get is a faction based MMO with some (and i use that word lightly) TES influence.
wildstar is suppose to be GW2 2.0, what we get is a GW2-like battle system with generic content.
i really don’t see what ppl complain about, GW2 still has more then the two you mentioned.
even archage, a game promised to be a new experience, is filled with generic quests and a story that makes my eyes glaze within the first 10 seconds.

I think, even with dodge buttons, themepark MMORPG have run their course. WoW (before you start foaming at the mouth now, I have played that game 3 hours on a guest account sent to me by a friend and really disliked it) has explored everything that is to be done in this territory. But sandbox games do not have mass appeal – so mmorpg will certainly become a niche phenomenon. Just look at the big promising launches of the recent past. Even mega-IPs like Star Wars and Elder Scrolls were not able to recapture the initial WoW success.

the WoW success you’re talking about happened when there were barely any other MMO on the western market, now we have so many alternatives that a success like that can not be reached unless a dev team makes an MMO that far preseed that of the normal MMO norm.
the problem is not the lack of design, it’s the lack of willingness on taking risks.
sure, Anet did make some risks and it backfired, that has nothing to do with lack of design but more lack of insight to players wishes

they did want to get rid of quests, what they didn’t do is fill the game with something that is equal as effective.
DE’s are not the answer and renown hearts are useless ones done, one thing quests do is give a way to add allot of objectives in a small space without taking to much space.

the difference is simple:
renown hearts=1 quest that takes up the entire area without any follow up quest
traditional quests=several quests in one spot that can lead anywhere with possible follow up quests.

i know they didn’t want to add quests for the sole reason that it could generate generic quests, they can solve this with dome instances that keeps the big quests away form the open world, making GW1-like quests possible without interference.

the bottom line is, i have yet to see even one dev team make risks further then a few features, it’s nice to add something new but if the rest of the game is exactly like the rest it doesn’t make a game worth any more then the rest.

sorudo.9054:

Algreg.3629:

sorudo.9054:

they said ESO will give us the elder scroll experience we’re used to, what we get is a faction based MMO with some (and i use that word lightly) TES influence.
wildstar is suppose to be GW2 2.0, what we get is a GW2-like battle system with generic content.
i really don’t see what ppl complain about, GW2 still has more then the two you mentioned.
even archage, a game promised to be a new experience, is filled with generic quests and a story that makes my eyes glaze within the first 10 seconds.

I think, even with dodge buttons, themepark MMORPG have run their course. WoW (before you start foaming at the mouth now, I have played that game 3 hours on a guest account sent to me by a friend and really disliked it) has explored everything that is to be done in this territory. But sandbox games do not have mass appeal – so mmorpg will certainly become a niche phenomenon. Just look at the big promising launches of the recent past. Even mega-IPs like Star Wars and Elder Scrolls were not able to recapture the initial WoW success.

the WoW success you’re talking about happened when there were barely any other MMO on the western market, now we have so many alternatives that a success like that can not be reached unless a dev team makes an MMO that far preseed that of the normal MMO norm.
the problem is not the lack of design, it’s the lack of willingness on taking risks.
sure, Anet did make some risks and it backfired, that has nothing to do with lack of design but more lack of insight to players wishes

they did want to get rid of quests, what they didn’t do is fill the game with something that is equal as effective.
DE’s are not the answer and renown hearts are useless ones done, one thing quests do is give a way to add allot of objectives in a small space without taking to much space.

the difference is simple:
renown hearts=1 quest that takes up the entire area without any follow up quest
traditional quests=several quests in one spot that can lead anywhere with possible follow up quests.

i know they didn’t want to add quests for the sole reason that it could generate generic quests, they can solve this with dome instances that keeps the big quests away form the open world, making GW1-like quests possible without interference.

the bottom line is, i have yet to see even one dev team make risks further then a few features, it’s nice to add something new but if the rest of the game is exactly like the rest it doesn’t make a game worth any more then the rest.

actually, I agree – just not with the WoW situation, there were plenty of MMORPG around back then. They were bold enough to enter mainstream culture though, eg hiring celebrities for marketing.
In the end, market dictates risks you take. Mainstream titles have become ridiculously expensive in recent years, even rivaling Hollywood Blockbusters. Even if devs would like to take the risk, publishers certainly won´t.

I’ve played TESO, it’s not nearly as good, smooth or fun as GW2 and the endgame is horrible, and that’s why they’re going halfprice on steam right now.

That data is misleading.

It doesn’t show profit, or production & development costs.

I was wondering where that chart came from in the now closed thread.

In 2013 most if not all of Lineage 1 and Blade & Soul’s income was from South Korea. Aion is around 2/3rds and Lineage 2 around 40% from just South Korea. I should note that all of these games include a cash shop where a chunk of income comes in from, especially Lineage 1. So “worldwide” doesn’t necessarily mean available in multiple countries.

And nexxe, how is that chart misleading? It only lists income and there is no mention of profitability at all. It’s the top 10 Subscription MMOs ranked by reported income. You aren’t going to find us or Nexon on that list because we and they have no P2P monthly option.

And if you want to link to something, link to this list which does include us. From April.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/mmo-arpu/

Algreg.3629:

sorudo.9054:

they said ESO will give us the elder scroll experience we’re used to, what we get is a faction based MMO with some (and i use that word lightly) TES influence.
wildstar is suppose to be GW2 2.0, what we get is a GW2-like battle system with generic content.
i really don’t see what ppl complain about, GW2 still has more then the two you mentioned.
even archage, a game promised to be a new experience, is filled with generic quests and a story that makes my eyes glaze within the first 10 seconds.

I think, even with dodge buttons, themepark MMORPG have run their course. WoW (before you start foaming at the mouth now, I have played that game 3 hours on a guest account sent to me by a friend and really disliked it) has explored everything that is to be done in this territory. But sandbox games do not have mass appeal – so mmorpg will certainly become a niche phenomenon. Just look at the big promising launches of the recent past. Even mega-IPs like Star Wars and Elder Scrolls were not able to recapture the initial WoW success.

This statement is almost certainly incorrrect. In fact, I’ll say straight out that years from now there will be mainstream MMOs…even themepark ones.

The logical flaw here is in this sentence: WoW…has explored everything to be done in this territory (referring to theme park MMOs). This isn’t even close to true. What WoW did and did well you’d never have encounted in 3 hours of play. Playing WoW for 3 hours is like saying I read books for 3 hours and didn’t find a book I liked. The reason for this is the end game experience in WoW is completely different than the leveling experience and it’s what a lot of people end up craving. You didn’t play WoW in 3 hours. You barely learned anything about the game in that time.

However, WoW was copied by many other games. Rift was called WoW 2.0. SWToR was called WoW in space. They copied the success of WoW without realizing that the success was based at least partly on the time of launch, the amount of competition around and the fact that they had a bajillion dollars to advertise their product. That’s what made WoW what it is today.

Now, because everyone was copying ONE formula for success and that formula has become dated, doesn’t mean that newer shinier products won’t come along that rewrite what we thought we knew about the genre. Guild Wars 2 took baby steps away from the tried and true (and in some ways major steps), but it’s still just a slight evolution away from what WoW was all about.

And you can see it here on these forums every day. People who like this game and admit it’s far from perfect (like me) defend the game because it IS a step away. It shows something that’s possible.

I’ve never played an MMO that offers the type of experience I have in Dry Top today. Not one. In the future, as more and more people except the inevitable demise of the old guard, MMOs will finally be able to go places no MMO have gone before. Even theme park MMOs.

Don’t confuse the failure of companies that copied old school stuff with the inability of the genre to provide more and better experiences. Evolution takes time.

alli know is gw2 did the best mmo launch but the following updates where a total crap and tons of players left while eso did one of the worst launches but the updates so far and the upcoming ones they making it a very very solid mmo. thats the power of the money and thats why gw2 should had a form of sub when it launched

GUYS read the fine-print in that first image of the article in the OPs topic.

F2P from a business standpoint is just a superior model. There are huge numbers of people who will just not pay a sub fee because they don’t play enough to justify the fee.

There’s a solid parallel in software piracy actually. Companies like to cite all downloads as lost revenue, but the truth is, a large percentage of the pirated copies were people who would have just not bought the game anyway. It’s only an actual loss if they would have bought it.

With an MMO it offers more flexibility. People who would not pay a sub fee very well might drop a few dollars here and there. Chances are, the larger player base is going to bring in more revenue than a smaller one with a fixed income. There are also some notable benefits as well, like higher populations which stops the “empty server” death spiral.

I like the B2P model myself, but I’m not sure the initial barrier is income maximizing. It make have tangential benefits like weeding out people with no investment and greifers which add to the stability and lifespan of the game.

Wildstar and TES will be Free To Play. TES far sooner most likely, but it will happen.

The people who mentioned Starwars being essentially P2P because of the huge gates are spot on. As much as I hate the gem store Keys (never bought one, never will), GW2 seems to have found a very solid balance with the gem shop. GW2 is kind of a trailblazer; for good and ill. They’ve done an great job balancing the business end of the game but made some really huge missteps content side. Honestly, whatever manager/executive ok’d living story/one shot content over long term content shouldn’t be in that position anymore.

I also think they’ve strongly under estimated how popular an expansion would be; take a loan, hire some more designers and crank out an expansion already.

Immensus.9732:

alli know is gw2 did the best mmo launch but the following updates where a total crap and tons of players left while eso did one of the worst launches but the updates so far and the upcoming ones they making it a very very solid mmo. thats the power of the money and thats why gw2 should had a form of sub when it launched

Both my sons recently quit playing ESO. They both stuff have active subs because they bought longer subs, but they’ve lost interest in the game due to bugs and exploits. They’re just bored with it. According to the Raptr ratings, ESO play hours by raptr players are down 50% from May to June. It’s not conclusive, but it’s an indicator. The writer predicts ESO will be out of the Raptr top 20 by next month. For a relatively new MMO that’s pretty bad news.

Belzebu.3912:

Azreell.1568:

GW2 could not survive as a sub based game.

No game will ever survive as a sub based MMO, at least in the western market.
WoW, EvE and Final Fantasy are pretty much the only sub games that still survive as P2P, ESO and Wildstar will become F2P soon or later (specially ESO).

Runescape thrives as a sub based MMO and has from its beginning.

MiloSales.8560:

F2P from a business standpoint is just a superior model. There are huge numbers of people who will just not pay a sub fee because they don’t play enough to justify the fee.

There’s a solid parallel in software piracy actually. Companies like to cite all downloads as lost revenue, but the truth is, a large percentage of the pirated copies were people who would have just not bought the game anyway. It’s only an actual loss if they would have bought it.

With an MMO it offers more flexibility. People who would not pay a sub fee very well might drop a few dollars here and there. Chances are, the larger player base is going to bring in more revenue than a smaller one with a fixed income. There are also some notable benefits as well, like higher populations which stops the “empty server” death spiral.

I like the B2P model myself, but I’m not sure the initial barrier is income maximizing. It make have tangential benefits like weeding out people with no investment and greifers which add to the stability and lifespan of the game.

Wildstar and TES will be Free To Play. TES far sooner most likely, but it will happen.

The people who mentioned Starwars being essentially P2P because of the huge gates are spot on. As much as I hate the gem store Keys (never bought one, never will), GW2 seems to have found a very solid balance with the gem shop. GW2 is kind of a trailblazer; for good and ill. They’ve done an great job balancing the business end of the game but made some really huge missteps content side. Honestly, whatever manager/executive ok’d living story/one shot content over long term content shouldn’t be in that position anymore.

I also think they’ve strongly under estimated how popular an expansion would be; take a loan, hire some more designers and crank out an expansion already.

F2P games with a cash shop are more profitable and require far less resources to continue to run.

The expectations of a F2P game are far lower then sub based games as well. Content can take much longer to come out , bug fixes are can be far slower, and overall the cost of development can be less due to not requiring as much resources to keep it’s player base happy enough to continue to play.

That above description is GW2 to a tee. Anet has done a great job at making it’s community happy with mediocrity. Yes, it sounds harsh but that is the truth and I applaud them for it.

Also, An interesting point. We will us gyms as an example. An average cost of membership in my area is $10.00-$15.00 a month for a top of the line gym with the best equipment and all the features you would expect from an upper scale gym. Now, what has begun to surface is new gyms opening with far less equipment and options but they are only $2.00 per time you work out. No contract , no monthly fee. People are flocking to these lesser equiped gyms thinking they are getting more value due to the price point of $2.00 per time you go.

Assume you go to the gym 10 times a month – that’s $20.00. So you are end up paying more for an inferior service.

The above system is based on the same ideal is F2P or B2P games.

The expectations for these type of games are so much lower then sub based and the marketing behind them is amazing that people actually believe these games offer more value.

Granted I understand the argument that you do not have to pay a dime to play gw2 via the cash shop. But, the bottom line is if people didn’t use the cash shop the game would cease to exist.

In the end the only thing the F2P and B2P models did was reduce the average consumers expectations of value and nickle and dime us to death for inferior products.

Azreell.1568:

That above description is GW2 to a tee. Anet has done a great job at making it’s community happy with mediocrity. Yes, it sounds harsh but that is the truth and I applaud them for it.

Actually I don’t see that as truth. I see that as an opinion. I had that exact opinion and in fact used almost those same words to describe WoW years ago. I felt it was a mediocre game that pretty much had everyone conned.

It was mediocre for me because what I was looking for in a game wasn’t there, so I wasn’t really in any mood to put up with all the ridiculous nonsense that goes along with playing that specific MMO. I liked Lotro better, so I was more willing to put up with the nonsense.

Every MMO I’ve ever played is mediocre. They all are buggy. They all have exploits and goldsellers. They all have really stupid things they do occasionally. They all have to patch stuff several times after a major patch to fix stuff.

When I played Rift, they patched every day after a patch sometimes for a week.

There are definitely things about this game that need work, but I’ve felt that same thing about every MMO I’ve ever played.

F2P cash shop / microtransaction income is faster than subscriptions. You may hear story sometime how many player realize they have spent $200 in 6 months. I know at least I’ve spent that much. That is a lot of months of subscription but you get what you need on the spot, item or gold.

Vayne.8563:

Azreell.1568:

That above description is GW2 to a tee. Anet has done a great job at making it’s community happy with mediocrity. Yes, it sounds harsh but that is the truth and I applaud them for it.

Actually I don’t see that as truth. I see that as an opinion. I had that exact opinion and in fact used almost those same words to describe WoW years ago. I felt it was a mediocre game that pretty much had everyone conned.

It was mediocre for me because what I was looking for in a game wasn’t there, so I wasn’t really in any mood to put up with all the ridiculous nonsense that goes along with playing that specific MMO. I liked Lotro better, so I was more willing to put up with the nonsense.

Every MMO I’ve ever played is mediocre. They all are buggy. They all have exploits and goldsellers. They all have really stupid things they do occasionally. They all have to patch stuff several times after a major patch to fix stuff.

When I played Rift, they patched every day after a patch sometimes for a week.

There are definitely things about this game that need work, but I’ve felt that same thing about every MMO I’ve ever played.

This game has less content after almost 2yrs then pretty much any other mmorpg I have played since Merridian 59.

People are also seemingly okay with that.

I can’t explain mediocrity any better that then.

Azreell.1568:

Vayne.8563:

Azreell.1568:

That above description is GW2 to a tee. Anet has done a great job at making it’s community happy with mediocrity. Yes, it sounds harsh but that is the truth and I applaud them for it.

Actually I don’t see that as truth. I see that as an opinion. I had that exact opinion and in fact used almost those same words to describe WoW years ago. I felt it was a mediocre game that pretty much had everyone conned.

It was mediocre for me because what I was looking for in a game wasn’t there, so I wasn’t really in any mood to put up with all the ridiculous nonsense that goes along with playing that specific MMO. I liked Lotro better, so I was more willing to put up with the nonsense.

Every MMO I’ve ever played is mediocre. They all are buggy. They all have exploits and goldsellers. They all have really stupid things they do occasionally. They all have to patch stuff several times after a major patch to fix stuff.

When I played Rift, they patched every day after a patch sometimes for a week.

There are definitely things about this game that need work, but I’ve felt that same thing about every MMO I’ve ever played.

This game has less content after almost 2yrs then pretty much any other mmorpg I have played since Merridian 59.

People are also seemingly okay with that.

I can’t explain mediocrity any better that then.

I disagree. This game has had more content than any MMO I’ve ever played after two years. See how easy that is. The problem is what you consider content isn’t what I consider content, and what I consider content isn’t what you consider content.

I’m perfectly happy to play around with the Marionette for a few weeks on move onto something else. Yes, that was content. But I’ve done it and I don’t feel I need to do it again. I feel that way about dungeons in almost all games. I do them a couple of times and for all I care, I’ll never play them again.

The open world on the other hand has 1500 repeatable quests, far more than most games ever have. Jumping puzzles, to me they’re content. I love them. Those I can repeat.

I’ve played an awful lot of MMOs. Most of them don’t have content. They have ways to slow you down so you think you have content. That’s by no means the same thing.

Vayne.8563:

Azreell.1568:

Vayne.8563:

Azreell.1568:

That above description is GW2 to a tee. Anet has done a great job at making it’s community happy with mediocrity. Yes, it sounds harsh but that is the truth and I applaud them for it.

Actually I don’t see that as truth. I see that as an opinion. I had that exact opinion and in fact used almost those same words to describe WoW years ago. I felt it was a mediocre game that pretty much had everyone conned.

It was mediocre for me because what I was looking for in a game wasn’t there, so I wasn’t really in any mood to put up with all the ridiculous nonsense that goes along with playing that specific MMO. I liked Lotro better, so I was more willing to put up with the nonsense.

Every MMO I’ve ever played is mediocre. They all are buggy. They all have exploits and goldsellers. They all have really stupid things they do occasionally. They all have to patch stuff several times after a major patch to fix stuff.

When I played Rift, they patched every day after a patch sometimes for a week.

There are definitely things about this game that need work, but I’ve felt that same thing about every MMO I’ve ever played.

This game has less content after almost 2yrs then pretty much any other mmorpg I have played since Merridian 59.

People are also seemingly okay with that.

I can’t explain mediocrity any better that then.

I disagree. This game has had more content than any MMO I’ve ever played after two years. See how easy that is. The problem is what you consider content isn’t what I consider content, and what I consider content isn’t what you consider content.

I’m perfectly happy to play around with the Marionette for a few weeks on move onto something else. Yes, that was content. But I’ve done it and I don’t feel I need to do it again. I feel that way about dungeons in almost all games. I do them a couple of times and for all I care, I’ll never play them again.

The open world on the other hand has 1500 repeatable quests, far more than most games ever have. Jumping puzzles, to me they’re content. I love them. Those I can repeat.

I’ve played an awful lot of MMOs. Most of them don’t have content. They have ways to slow you down so you think you have content. That’s by no means the same thing.

I understand what you are doing with your examples.

It’s obvious you are a “loyal fan” as well and I respect that.

But, Let’s be realistic – the general complaint about GW2 has been and always will be lack of content. You can defend LS all you want but overall the large loss in players GW2 had and Anet reacting by creating the mega servers was due to that.

I AM NOT saying GW2 is dying but it did take quite a large population hit and very few can deny that.

Someone did a nice post of comparative content releases between GW2 and other games – it was very interesting and sad at the same time.

I’ll have to try and dig it up.

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

sorudo.9054:

they said ESO will give us the elder scroll experience we’re used to, what we get is a faction based MMO with some (and i use that word lightly) TES influence.
wildstar is suppose to be GW2 2.0, what we get is a GW2-like battle system with generic content.
i really don’t see what ppl complain about, GW2 still has more then the two you mentioned.
even archage, a game promised to be a new experience, is filled with generic quests and a story that makes my eyes glaze within the first 10 seconds.

I think, even with dodge buttons, themepark MMORPG have run their course. WoW (before you start foaming at the mouth now, I have played that game 3 hours on a guest account sent to me by a friend and really disliked it) has explored everything that is to be done in this territory. But sandbox games do not have mass appeal – so mmorpg will certainly become a niche phenomenon. Just look at the big promising launches of the recent past. Even mega-IPs like Star Wars and Elder Scrolls were not able to recapture the initial WoW success.

This statement is almost certainly incorrrect. In fact, I’ll say straight out that years from now there will be mainstream MMOs…even themepark ones.

The logical flaw here is in this sentence: WoW…has explored everything to be done in this territory (referring to theme park MMOs). This isn’t even close to true. What WoW did and did well you’d never have encounted in 3 hours of play. Playing WoW for 3 hours is like saying I read books for 3 hours and didn’t find a book I liked. The reason for this is the end game experience in WoW is completely different than the leveling experience and it’s what a lot of people end up craving. You didn’t play WoW in 3 hours. You barely learned anything about the game in that time.

However, WoW was copied by many other games. Rift was called WoW 2.0. SWToR was called WoW in space. They copied the success of WoW without realizing that the success was based at least partly on the time of launch, the amount of competition around and the fact that they had a bajillion dollars to advertise their product. That’s what made WoW what it is today.

Now, because everyone was copying ONE formula for success and that formula has become dated, doesn’t mean that newer shinier products won’t come along that rewrite what we thought we knew about the genre. Guild Wars 2 took baby steps away from the tried and true (and in some ways major steps), but it’s still just a slight evolution away from what WoW was all about.

And you can see it here on these forums every day. People who like this game and admit it’s far from perfect (like me) defend the game because it IS a step away. It shows something that’s possible.

I’ve never played an MMO that offers the type of experience I have in Dry Top today. Not one. In the future, as more and more people except the inevitable demise of the old guard, MMOs will finally be able to go places no MMO have gone before. Even theme park MMOs.

Don’t confuse the failure of companies that copied old school stuff with the inability of the genre to provide more and better experiences. Evolution takes time.

i see a huge flaw here, no one has copied WoW, WoW has copied from other games and mixed it around.
the quest arrow never existed till guild wars came with it, same with the quest indication on the map which was in LOTRO at first.
when i tried WoW back at the start none of the features you see now were there, eventually they started the trail thing and all of a sudden i was flooded with features i have seen from other MMO’s.
and to be clear, i played WoW after playing guild wars and just a month before LOTRO got online, there is no other way around thought here.

“the industry took notice as the publisher fearlessly announced a subscription model”

One of the most laughable things anyone has said about this genre, for sure. And they actually use the headline “Wildstar and Elder Scrolls Online Challenge Status Quo.” LMFAO!

That whole page is a joke. Scroll down a little, you can see them lavishing praise on some Kim Kardashian mobile game, and employing smug, corporation-worshiping headlines like “King Silences Haters.” Whoever writes this site sounds like a right-wing extremist nut.

More on topic, I see no reason to assume monthly subscriptions are an advisable model to shoot for, let alone the measure of a good online game. The market can only tolerate a handful of subscription-based games at any given time. Heck, most of the games on their list aren’t even under a subscription anymore. What does that say for the model, when the MOST SUCCESSFUL games can’t even afford to continue that way? Do you think it’s because they simply became “not good enough” to sub-based anymore? Hardly.

Azreell.1568:

Vayne.8563:

Azreell.1568:

That above description is GW2 to a tee. Anet has done a great job at making it’s community happy with mediocrity. Yes, it sounds harsh but that is the truth and I applaud them for it.

Actually I don’t see that as truth. I see that as an opinion. I had that exact opinion and in fact used almost those same words to describe WoW years ago. I felt it was a mediocre game that pretty much had everyone conned.

It was mediocre for me because what I was looking for in a game wasn’t there, so I wasn’t really in any mood to put up with all the ridiculous nonsense that goes along with playing that specific MMO. I liked Lotro better, so I was more willing to put up with the nonsense.

Every MMO I’ve ever played is mediocre. They all are buggy. They all have exploits and goldsellers. They all have really stupid things they do occasionally. They all have to patch stuff several times after a major patch to fix stuff.

When I played Rift, they patched every day after a patch sometimes for a week.

There are definitely things about this game that need work, but I’ve felt that same thing about every MMO I’ve ever played.

This game has less content after almost 2yrs then pretty much any other mmorpg I have played since Merridian 59.

Can’t say how much content the original WoW had, but didn’t they also needed 2 years for their first expansion, and never implemented the promised housing ?

At least as an EQ2 player i always wondered why people play that game and it get so seldom expansion because we had already the 3rd expansion when WoW got the first, and we had housing from the start.

sorudo.9054:

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

sorudo.9054:

they said ESO will give us the elder scroll experience we’re used to, what we get is a faction based MMO with some (and i use that word lightly) TES influence.
wildstar is suppose to be GW2 2.0, what we get is a GW2-like battle system with generic content.
i really don’t see what ppl complain about, GW2 still has more then the two you mentioned.
even archage, a game promised to be a new experience, is filled with generic quests and a story that makes my eyes glaze within the first 10 seconds.

I think, even with dodge buttons, themepark MMORPG have run their course. WoW (before you start foaming at the mouth now, I have played that game 3 hours on a guest account sent to me by a friend and really disliked it) has explored everything that is to be done in this territory. But sandbox games do not have mass appeal – so mmorpg will certainly become a niche phenomenon. Just look at the big promising launches of the recent past. Even mega-IPs like Star Wars and Elder Scrolls were not able to recapture the initial WoW success.

This statement is almost certainly incorrrect. In fact, I’ll say straight out that years from now there will be mainstream MMOs…even themepark ones.

The logical flaw here is in this sentence: WoW…has explored everything to be done in this territory (referring to theme park MMOs). This isn’t even close to true. What WoW did and did well you’d never have encounted in 3 hours of play. Playing WoW for 3 hours is like saying I read books for 3 hours and didn’t find a book I liked. The reason for this is the end game experience in WoW is completely different than the leveling experience and it’s what a lot of people end up craving. You didn’t play WoW in 3 hours. You barely learned anything about the game in that time.

However, WoW was copied by many other games. Rift was called WoW 2.0. SWToR was called WoW in space. They copied the success of WoW without realizing that the success was based at least partly on the time of launch, the amount of competition around and the fact that they had a bajillion dollars to advertise their product. That’s what made WoW what it is today.

Now, because everyone was copying ONE formula for success and that formula has become dated, doesn’t mean that newer shinier products won’t come along that rewrite what we thought we knew about the genre. Guild Wars 2 took baby steps away from the tried and true (and in some ways major steps), but it’s still just a slight evolution away from what WoW was all about.

And you can see it here on these forums every day. People who like this game and admit it’s far from perfect (like me) defend the game because it IS a step away. It shows something that’s possible.

I’ve never played an MMO that offers the type of experience I have in Dry Top today. Not one. In the future, as more and more people except the inevitable demise of the old guard, MMOs will finally be able to go places no MMO have gone before. Even theme park MMOs.

Don’t confuse the failure of companies that copied old school stuff with the inability of the genre to provide more and better experiences. Evolution takes time.

i see a huge flaw here, no one has copied WoW, WoW has copied from other games and mixed it around.
the quest arrow never existed till guild wars came with it, same with the quest indication on the map which was in LOTRO at first.
when i tried WoW back at the start none of the features you see now were there, eventually they started the trail thing and all of a sudden i was flooded with features i have seen from other MMO’s.
and to be clear, i played WoW after playing guild wars and just a month before LOTRO got online, there is no other way around thought here.

Of course people have copies WoW. To suggest that they haven’t is completely spurious. This is how business works. A business that’s successful, ANY business, will have businesses that try to jump in the band wagon. I’m NOT saying that everything WoW did is completely original and that they copied nobody. Nowhere have I ever said that.

But other people saw the money WoW was making and said, I’d like a piece of that action. I’m going to make that game but in space. I’m going to make that game but it’ll have this twist. But essentially, when you risk a lot of money to make something, investors like to stay with tried and true. That’s how these things are sold to investors.

You don’t have to believe it. But the term WoW-clone came from somewhere.

Azreell.1568:

Vayne.8563:

Azreell.1568:

Vayne.8563:

Azreell.1568:

That above description is GW2 to a tee. Anet has done a great job at making it’s community happy with mediocrity. Yes, it sounds harsh but that is the truth and I applaud them for it.

Actually I don’t see that as truth. I see that as an opinion. I had that exact opinion and in fact used almost those same words to describe WoW years ago. I felt it was a mediocre game that pretty much had everyone conned.

It was mediocre for me because what I was looking for in a game wasn’t there, so I wasn’t really in any mood to put up with all the ridiculous nonsense that goes along with playing that specific MMO. I liked Lotro better, so I was more willing to put up with the nonsense.

Every MMO I’ve ever played is mediocre. They all are buggy. They all have exploits and goldsellers. They all have really stupid things they do occasionally. They all have to patch stuff several times after a major patch to fix stuff.

When I played Rift, they patched every day after a patch sometimes for a week.

There are definitely things about this game that need work, but I’ve felt that same thing about every MMO I’ve ever played.

This game has less content after almost 2yrs then pretty much any other mmorpg I have played since Merridian 59.

People are also seemingly okay with that.

I can’t explain mediocrity any better that then.

I disagree. This game has had more content than any MMO I’ve ever played after two years. See how easy that is. The problem is what you consider content isn’t what I consider content, and what I consider content isn’t what you consider content.

I’m perfectly happy to play around with the Marionette for a few weeks on move onto something else. Yes, that was content. But I’ve done it and I don’t feel I need to do it again. I feel that way about dungeons in almost all games. I do them a couple of times and for all I care, I’ll never play them again.

The open world on the other hand has 1500 repeatable quests, far more than most games ever have. Jumping puzzles, to me they’re content. I love them. Those I can repeat.

I’ve played an awful lot of MMOs. Most of them don’t have content. They have ways to slow you down so you think you have content. That’s by no means the same thing.

I understand what you are doing with your examples.

It’s obvious you are a “loyal fan” as well and I respect that.

But, Let’s be realistic – the general complaint about GW2 has been and always will be lack of content. You can defend LS all you want but overall the large loss in players GW2 had and Anet reacting by creating the mega servers was due to that.

I AM NOT saying GW2 is dying but it did take quite a large population hit and very few can deny that.

Someone did a nice post of comparative content releases between GW2 and other games – it was very interesting and sad at the same time.

I’ll have to try and dig it up.

I am being realistic. You’re simply using your opinion about what is and isn’t content and trying to state it as fact. Raids aren’t content to 90% of the population of most games, because most people don’t do them. Show me that Rift came out with ten dungeons and three raids (or whatever) and I’ll say so? Not content I’d play. Lots of people don’t PvP. More PvP content isn’t content to me either.

The content here is content that I’ll play. I’ve played at least half a dozen MMOs before this one (and dabbled in half a dozen more). None of them have as much to do FOR ME.

I haven’t found a whole lot of themepark MMOs that don’t take a hit on population after a while. WoW has lost millions since their heyday, but that means what exactly?

Everyone says this game is dying going to die every time a new release comes out. They said it for Neverwinter, ESO and now Wildstar. ESO didn’t do what everyone thought it would (and is having some problems of it’s own.) Wildstar has found an audience, but it’s not going to be the next big thing, even if some people like it.

But people keep talking about population hits…is it more or less than the expected drop off?

Vayne.8563:

But other people saw the money WoW was making and said, I’d like a piece of that action. I’m going to make that game but in space. I’m going to make that game but it’ll have this twist. But essentially, when you risk a lot of money to make something, investors like to stay with tried and true. That’s how these things are sold to investors.

You don’t have to believe it. But the term WoW-clone came from somewhere.

Yeah .. because most people started playing MMOs with WoW and don’t even now UO, Lineage and Everquest and all what was before and from what WoW was a clone in the end.

And the success couldn’t be duplicated by others, because no other Company had a Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft with millions of fans and so the possibility to get players from other genres to try an MMO.

Beldin.5498:

Vayne.8563:

But other people saw the money WoW was making and said, I’d like a piece of that action. I’m going to make that game but in space. I’m going to make that game but it’ll have this twist. But essentially, when you risk a lot of money to make something, investors like to stay with tried and true. That’s how these things are sold to investors.

You don’t have to believe it. But the term WoW-clone came from somewhere.

Yeah .. because most people started playing MMOs with WoW and don’t even now UO, Lineage and Everquest and all what was before and from what WoW was a clone in the end.

And the success couldn’t be duplicated by others, because no other Company had a Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft with millions of fans and so the possibility to get players from other genres to try an MMO.

Wow was designed to compete and dethrone EQ1 originally – which is did.

Also, an interesting point was Wow was not designed with any type of PvP in mind at all. It was only later did blizzard implement pvp systems. So , the entire original foundation of that game was based around PvE.

EQ1 was the original carrot on a stick game – Wow simply perfected it.

UO itself was an anomaly. Still slated as one of the best PvP experiences of modern gaming. P.S. Pacifica ftw.

L1 myself I never cared for. But, the eastern market is still in love with that game.

Keep in mind we can go back as far as Mud’s but I think that would confuse a majority of GW2’s current player base.

More:
http://caas.raptr.com/most-played-pc-games-june-2014-wildstar-on-the-rise-steam-summer-sale-aftermath/