Guild Wars 2

DresdenAllblack.1249:

This streamlining allows them to move forward now. Instead of struggling to inch forward with the jumble of (mostly) useless skills we had before.

People were saying this when we moved from GW1 to GW2.

It makes me wonder how much Anet has to “streamline” their system before they can “move forward.” And what exactly are we moving towards?

I would argue that specializations increased build diversity because they got rid of the +300/30% stats from traits at level 80. It used to be that I’d take sub-par skill lines rather than the ones I wanted to because 300 precision/ferocity was too much to give up.

In my opinion the specialization system is an unquestionable step in the right direction. The combining of many ok traits into one good one is much more efficient. Ultimately this improves the trait system to make more sense and in the future will allow for a huge amount of customization.

The PROBLEM is that we dont have enough traits or skills to choose from. We got an increase to the number of traits we can slot but a decrease to the number we can choose from. Of course its going to seem like there are fewer combinations to choose from: mathematically there are. Its three years into the game and we have not had an increase in traits, we have FEWER than we started with. A step in the right direction for sure, but we really need at least 6 traits at each tier to choose from in order to feel like a truly customizable game.

Ranger had crapload of very weak traits, or builds the requires full 70 points, without room to pick some fun extra traits. Now with the update, There’s a huge amount of viable, fun to play, satisfactory builds. Just look at the thread Heimz Karlfield (sorry if spelled wrong) made. Tons of builds! A lot of them were not used/viable before patch. And with beastmaster traits being very good now, the choice between 50 pets also got more interesting. So for ranger builds definitely increased imo.

Engineer is more complex. While it had room for an enormous amount of builds, it never really shined apart from some meta builds. Now there’s slightly fewer buidls, but the traits are more synergized (important imo), the minors are better, but most traits are more powerfull merged options now meaning, you might have slightly fewer builds, but the ones you take now, feel more powerful, more that you chose the right thing.

I see a similar thing with other professions.

Sure a few combo’s where killed in process. But I think those are few. And the builds we now take are more focussed, synergized, and have 90 points (versus old 70 points). 90 points alone (even with the limitations of taking full lines) opens up new builds not possible in past. You can now combo up 3x grandmaster trait, wich are most of time really game changers for builds. With a choice of 15 and 3 (instead of 2) to chooe off, I think most builds are actually better off now. And Anet is listening also, wouldnt amaze me, that they still add Ricochet in some way again.

More functional and useful builds > More diversity and useless builds.

This is exactly what the new Specialization system gives us. I see no issue with it at all, and I’ve seen all of my characters improve dramatically, even when I had them set with odd-ball builds. I haven’t touched my Engineer in a long time and had a not-so great build with the old system because of it. When they updated to Specializations, I ran with him and did decently well. I still haven’t touched his build.

I think people are upset that we got more freedom with the Traits system. That may be true in a sense, but the “more freedom” we got with the old system didn’t equal overall better experience, better builds, and better synchronization within those builds. I mentioned in another thread (same exact topic) that Specializations will cause more diversity in the builds people run simply because build crafting now focuses on a person’s playstyle rather than what is the meta for that profession.

TLDR
All in all, Specializations is more of a benefit then a detriment, and I feel that the people that don’t think this are focusing on the “freedom” aspect of it and not realizing that the freedom we got to be Master of All Trades, if you will, was almost never effective to use, never useful to take advantage of, and only a very very small minority ran the builds that took advantage of that freedom.

Even in those cases, the old trait system focused players to spread their stat points extremely thin in some areas just to get a boon or ability that may only help in very specific and sometimes very rare occasions.

I prefer the new one now. Before I was picking traits in lines that had the stat buffs I wanted. Now I’m selecting traits for what the traits are. It has some flaws, such as not being able to do a partial line and having to go all the way to grandmaster, but overall it’s better.

If you look at a game like Camalot Unchained who have recently released some trait system footage, and compare to the direction of anet, i would be embarrassed . The customization is not even on the same planet. Seems the easy way out for devs and cookie cutters for all. Whats this?? the mcdonalds of mmo’s? Click and play system? Why give any choice at all?? Just have 3 buttons , dps, bunker , condi and be done with it!

Its funny how people disregard builds that they never used, or didn’t even put some efforts to test them, as weak or easy kill or whatever, so by that logic any build that you just rushed thru, or that you have never discovered, is weak?
Traits that look weak usually are weak only for you cause you never figured out how to use them effectively.

I never used any of the meta builds since i don’t give a **** about single build per profession, cause that’s what meta does, it reduce choice of builds to only that “valid” one. Instead i only roll out with my OWN builds that i never shared with others and so far be it pvp, pve or wvw i never felt weak against anyone, nor was an easy kill for that matter.

It seems that there are 3 camps of players

camp 1, players that don’t give a kitten about diversity, choice or play style and just want to play, so for them its fine whatever happens but the simpler it is the better.

camp 2, players that only use meta builds so they never knew what diversity or choice is, as long they find meta build they are happy, this lack of diversity is ok for them.

camp 3, players that could make any build to work, loved creating builds that no one else used and still be competitive, preferred to be different then the rest of the meta mob, they most likely started playing gw2 cause of diversity and this change really hurts them.

It looks like Anet decided to go with either camp 1 or 2, after all, the less they have to flex their brain muscle the better.

Whether they removed some weak or not used traits, the fact still remains, less traits in each of the specializations lines still means less diversity.

Cold Hearted Person.6154:

Traits that look weak usually are weak only for you cause you never figured out how to use them effectively.

No some traits are just weak. The new system gives real choice with real builds – not just the option to make awful builds (which designers should try and avoid).

camp 4, players who appreciate the build control and diversity the new system created (this is where the clever people are).

Cold Hearted Person.6154:

Its funny how people disregard builds that they never used, or didn’t even put some efforts to test them, as weak or easy kill or whatever, so by that logic any build that you just rushed thru, or that you have never discovered, is weak?
Traits that look weak usually are weak only for you cause you never figured out how to use them effectively.

I never used any of the meta builds since i don’t give a **** about single build per profession, cause that’s what meta does, it reduce choice of builds to only that “valid” one. Instead i only roll out with my OWN builds that i never shared with others and so far be it pvp, pve or wvw i never felt weak against anyone, nor was an easy kill for that matter.

It seems that there are 3 camps of players

camp 1, players that don’t give a kitten about diversity, choice or play style and just want to play, so for them its fine whatever happens but the simpler it is the better.

camp 2, players that only use meta builds so they never knew what diversity or choice is, as long they find meta build they are happy, this lack of diversity is ok for them.

camp 3, players that could make any build to work, loved creating builds that no one else used and still be competitive, preferred to be different then the rest of the meta mob, they most likely started playing gw2 cause of diversity and this change really hurts them.

It looks like Anet decided to go with either camp 1 or 2, after all, the less they have to flex their brain muscle the better.

Whether they removed some weak or not used traits, the fact still remains, less traits in each of the specializations lines still means less diversity.

It’s funny how you assume only gifted people with deep insight into the game and willingness to play “any” build have any idea of building toons.

The 1 thing I’ve learned over my many years of gaming is this: there is always someone who has more time, knowhow, capability and drive to do it better. Just as there are many who just want fun.

There are players doing insane amounts of testing of builds and traits. Meta builds don’t just “appear” because some players out there say those builds are good. They develope because someone either stumbles on them by accident, does extensive testing and optimization of his build or through heavy theorycrafting.

That being said, you forgot camp4:

camp4, players who liked trying out many different build, knew their main toon in and out, switched traits on an almost daily basis and were fed up with 1/2 – 2/3rds of the choices they had being broken, useless or not viable. Players who understand that diversity is not decided by how many options you have, but how many of those are actually useful (not to mention that changing 1-2 traits in the old system is not an entire new build, even if our mathematicions against the change want to make us believe this).

In total the resonance to the change was very positiv. The only problems people are having are with balance, bugs and getting used to the new traits and builds.

I found the opposite. With the new specializations I feel that are more possibilities. I’m loving so far. With the old system was too much useless things, now a just a few.

But there is still useless utility skills that are useless and must be changed.

Also, they must add a new effect to ALL falling traits. They are worthless.

My elementalist is a lot stronger with the new system.

Rangers lost a lot though, from what I’m reading, and from my own personal experience, although I don’t run traps or spirits (which both lost some vital mobility)

What’s most impactful on my particular build is the loss of the radius increase in offhand training really hurts someone who runs a two weapon condi build, IMHO. Now I have to take ambidexterity for my torch and windborn notes for my WH, but even with those two traits, the radius I used to get on bonfire thanks to the offhand training trait has been laregly nerfed. The fire field laid down by bonfire now is tiny by comparison. I’ve lost a lot of cleanse ability thanks to how the trait lines shake out as well. Not fond of the trap version of HS either.

That said, my condi ranger is still a beast and my first love.

i like the new changes idk that the op is complaining about.

Luna Leon.3480:

Diversity? Who ever stated on the above post that the specialization system has more diversity than the Trait Points System… Doesn’t know what diversity means.

And I am specific with my “complain”. I had diversity, to built optimal or non optimal chracters. That’s the fun of the game to have as much free options possible. You wanna optimize your built… Feel free. You wanna built it like a brick… Feel free. We had that and the just replaced it with a TEMPLATE! Templates offer minimal diversity.

Killing fun skills, redusing customization etc… YES it kills the game slowly.

Can we do anything about it… YES we wait for another year hopefully for the new korean games to hit europe.

Do we need to wait for the korean games… NOT if the developers could ajust their hearing a bit to the consumer voice. Because afterall GW2 it is a great game but is start to fall. I will hate to quit playing it becaue of failed upgrades after 3 years!

I hear you Luna, and I agree with you for the most part. Unfortunately, this “Diablo 3.5” approach is being warmly welcomed by what appears to be a majority of the player base. (I could be wrong; maybe it’s just the most vocal players that are happy with this approach, and not the majority of all players).

In short, I like having the choice to make sub-optimal characters. Being different is part of the fun. I want more choices, not more meta builds to choose from.

But there is surely no going back now, Anet is too invested. I’m trying out the new system but I just can’t appreciate it the way some others do. Ah well, I did get a good 1.5 years out of this game, and that’s not bad.

It’s still horribly unbalanced, to be honest.

In theory, if they ever manage to balance it, it will probably be better than what we had.

If not, then there are always other games.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

Luna Leon.3480:

Diversity? Who ever stated on the above post that the specialization system has more diversity than the Trait Points System… Doesn’t know what diversity means.

And I am specific with my “complain”. I had diversity, to built optimal or non optimal chracters. That’s the fun of the game to have as much free options possible. You wanna optimize your built… Feel free. You wanna built it like a brick… Feel free. We had that and the just replaced it with a TEMPLATE! Templates offer minimal diversity.

Killing fun skills, redusing customization etc… YES it kills the game slowly.

Can we do anything about it… YES we wait for another year hopefully for the new korean games to hit europe.

Do we need to wait for the korean games… NOT if the developers could ajust their hearing a bit to the consumer voice. Because afterall GW2 it is a great game but is start to fall. I will hate to quit playing it becaue of failed upgrades after 3 years!

I hear you Luna, and I agree with you for the most part. Unfortunately, this “Diablo 3.5” approach is being warmly welcomed by what appears to be a majority of the player base. (I could be wrong; maybe it’s just the most vocal players that are happy with this approach, and not the majority of all players).

In short, I like having the choice to make sub-optimal characters. Being different is part of the fun. I want more choices, not more meta builds to choose from.

But there is surely no going back now, Anet is too invested. I’m trying out the new system but I just can’t appreciate it the way some others do. Ah well, I did get a good 1.5 years out of this game, and that’s not bad.

Why on earth would anyone want to make “sub-optimal” characters?

I totally understand enjoying a large amount of choice, but surely that approach only works if they are capable of balancing it?

Daegony.3604:

If we forget that this is a game, and that it has combat, be it against the AI or actual players (therefor needs balance), and we look solely to the mathematics point of view, I agree: Diversity was heavily crippled.
In the old system if we went full on a trait line we would have 240 different outcomes for that line alone, whereas in the new system we have 27 possible ones. But that’s just mathematics.
In the old system it was extremally hard to predict what choices a player would make, and those choices would either make you as a player feel under or overpowered. At the end, in the big picture of the game it was nothing but an illusion of choice. The hardcore players were running meta builds (no choice there) and the rest of the player base were being barely functional, and most of the time sub optimal.
Now we have 10 different combinations of core specializations (20 when the elite one drops) and within each of the three chosen ones you have 27 possibilities. That’s 810 possible combinations of traits to make your build [wich will soon double] and that is still a lot to think of when balancing everything out. But what makes this system better is that it is easier to predict the outcomes, and now devs can provide meaningful choices instead of just choices and make a lot of them much more viable and fun/rewarding to run.

Oh wow! A intelligent person! Well said. You nailed it. I wish I had the patience to type out something like this.

People don’t seem to realize that there’s going to be more than one specialization per class eventually. Lets say in 1.5 years after the expansion launch they release another set of specialties. That complicates it even more. In 3 years they add another set of specialties. That’s even more to balance. This really was the only intelligent way to go about it.

I’m enjoying the new system. I feel like it was a book that really need editing and got it. 50% of the old traits were completely worthless.

Tigaseye.2047:

Why on earth would anyone want to make “sub-optimal” characters?

I totally understand enjoying a large amount of choice, but surely that approach only works if they are capable of balancing it?

I can’t speak for the person who said it, but “sub-optimal” doesn’t necessarily mean “intentionally bad”. It just means “not meta.” If I can take an axe trait that makes my DPS 1000, or a greatsword trait that makes it 1050, then the greatsword is optimal. However, the difference is small enough that the axe character can easily perform just as well in any game mode. If a player thinks the axe is more fun, they’re free to choose that with no real detriment to themselves.

That’s the loss that many people are mourning. There were many, many build options that were not meta, but could perform just fine, and which naturally had the highest usage among players who weren’t trying to crunch that extra 1-2% of damage out of their build. If character efficiency were on a percentage scale and 1% was the meta, the “sub-optimal” 90-99% are where the variety was gutted.

I agree with the OP. This is nothing else than a dumb-down of the trait-system into pre-fabricated templates – cookie-cutter builds for each proffession.

The ones who are saying this new system has more diversity obviously never grasped the previous or the system before that and how to utilize them fully. Now it’s just a few mouse-clicks to get the meta.

Someone asked what will happen in the future. My guess is that in next revamp of traits we’ll have ONE traitline for each profession with perhaps two clicky-choices in each tier within the traitline itself. Then why not also an automated rotation of skills and we don’t have to think at all. “Press 1 to start combat”

ExtraCosmic.9082:

Tigaseye.2047:

Why on earth would anyone want to make “sub-optimal” characters?

I totally understand enjoying a large amount of choice, but surely that approach only works if they are capable of balancing it?

I can’t speak for the person who said it, but “sub-optimal” doesn’t necessarily mean “intentionally bad”. It just means “not meta.” If I can take an axe trait that makes my DPS 1000, or a greatsword trait that makes it 1050, then the greatsword is optimal. However, the difference is small enough that the axe character can easily perform just as well in any game mode. If a player thinks the axe is more fun, they’re free to choose that with no real detriment to themselves.

That’s the loss that many people are mourning. There were many, many build options that were not meta, but could perform just fine, and which naturally had the highest usage among players who weren’t trying to crunch that extra 1-2% of damage out of their build. If character efficiency were on a percentage scale and 1% was the meta, the “sub-optimal” 90-99% are where the variety was gutted.

No one said sub-optimal was bad and your sub-optimal to meta description is wrong.

Let’s make this simpler, in the old system there were:

- meta builds depending on class and game type (a build is not defined by 1 simple set of traits and skills, but also alternatives to traits and skills)

- a couple of useful non meta builds which people run as niche or just for fun that worked just as well because without damage log parser and the casual approach of the game (and lots of open world pve zerg) no one cared

- a LOT of useless builds or very subpar builds composed only in theory since the traits for those would have never been picked (or shouldn’t have)

Your example would have been of someone taking a meta build and slightly altering it, or making up their own build which still fits in category 2 of useful and playable. What people are refering to when mentioning sub-optimal builds or useless builds are the ones in category 3 of which there were A LOT.

Each class had some very defining traits in each line which basically dictated what build they used while the rest was fluff. The new system gets rid of a lot of fluff and makes sure that more people are on even ground as far as trait setup goes.

Is this to your disadvantage? Sure, if you believe you’ve develeoped that unique snowflake build that no one else has ever come up (very unlikely considering the playerbase).

Is this to the games advantage (and ultimately yours too)? YES! It allows for better balance, easier use to casual players to “get a decent talent build” which in turn allows for anet to balance content differently because they better know what to expect from classes.

I’m not even going to get into their expansion approach with elite specializations which would have been a disaster in the old system.

The more options there are, the more it’s possible for someone to come up with something that most others have not discovered, but which works really well. The less options there are , the more likely it is that any build you come up with is used by a large number of others. Since this lack of surprise is what Anet has been aiming for all along, it should not be a surprise that the current system accomplishes this aim. Frankly, the old system did not have a lot of surprises in it, though the new system does have fewer.

IndigoSundown.5419:

The more options there are, the more it’s possible for someone to come up with something that most others have not discovered, but which works really well. The less options there are , the more likely it is that any build you come up with is used by a large number of others. Since this lack of surprise is what Anet has been aiming for all along, it should not be a surprise that the current system accomplishes this aim. Frankly, the old system did not have a lot of surprises in it, though the new system does have fewer.

But the new system isn’t really complete yet and the old system was. I wonder how that will change when elite specializations come into play.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The more options there are, the more it’s possible for someone to come up with something that most others have not discovered, but which works really well. The less options there are , the more likely it is that any build you come up with is used by a large number of others. Since this lack of surprise is what Anet has been aiming for all along, it should not be a surprise that the current system accomplishes this aim. Frankly, the old system did not have a lot of surprises in it, though the new system does have fewer.

But the new system isn’t really complete yet and the old system was. I wonder how that will change when elite specializations come into play.

The old system wasnt complete. Near release jon peters said he planned to add a ton of traits per class. One of the reasons they had made a change to their pre beta trait systems, was so they could add traits more easily.

That never came to pass. Most likely because they saw problems with the system. And began thinking of new systems. Or they decided less options is better.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The more options there are, the more it’s possible for someone to come up with something that most others have not discovered, but which works really well. The less options there are , the more likely it is that any build you come up with is used by a large number of others. Since this lack of surprise is what Anet has been aiming for all along, it should not be a surprise that the current system accomplishes this aim. Frankly, the old system did not have a lot of surprises in it, though the new system does have fewer.

But the new system isn’t really complete yet and the old system was. I wonder how that will change when elite specializations come into play.

The old system wasnt complete. Near release jon peters said he planned to add a ton of traits per class. One of the reasons they had made a change to their pre beta trait systems, was so they could add traits more easily.

That never came to pass. Most likely because they saw problems with the system. And began thinking of new systems. Or they decided less options is better.

The old system was complete as in self contained. It’s pretty obvious to me, there’s a major piece of this puzzle missing that will come when elite specializations are released.

I believe that the original trait system was supposed to last us, whether they added new stuff or didn’t. It was still a completely system.

I seems that a lot of traits weren’t getting used at all, and there doesn’t seem to me any real reason to add new traits when old traits are being unused. So Anet decided to change the system to provide more useful traits. But at the same time, it’s also designed to allow for modular expansion as more specializations come out.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The more options there are, the more it’s possible for someone to come up with something that most others have not discovered, but which works really well. The less options there are , the more likely it is that any build you come up with is used by a large number of others. Since this lack of surprise is what Anet has been aiming for all along, it should not be a surprise that the current system accomplishes this aim. Frankly, the old system did not have a lot of surprises in it, though the new system does have fewer.

But the new system isn’t really complete yet and the old system was. I wonder how that will change when elite specializations come into play.

The old system wasnt complete. Near release jon peters said he planned to add a ton of traits per class. One of the reasons they had made a change to their pre beta trait systems, was so they could add traits more easily.

That never came to pass. Most likely because they saw problems with the system. And began thinking of new systems. Or they decided less options is better.

The old system was complete as in self contained. It’s pretty obvious to me, there’s a major piece of this puzzle missing that will come when elite specializations are released.

I believe that the original trait system was supposed to last us, whether they added new stuff or didn’t. It was still a completely system.

I seems that a lot of traits weren’t getting used at all, and there doesn’t seem to me any real reason to add new traits when old traits are being unused. So Anet decided to change the system to provide more useful traits. But at the same time, it’s also designed to allow for modular expansion as more specializations come out.

You add traits that enhance playstyles or create new playstyles. Doesnt really have to do with underperforming traits.

For example, the fact that hard to catch used to suck( random teleport when you gett cced) has little to do with if pistol could benefit from a trait that made it more power friendly in the main hand.

As for the new system being incomplete, it will always be so. Its supposed to be a system that houses multiple specializations. Juat like the last system was supposed to allow for many more traits to enhance specific playstyles.

I think if you haven’t played a while you shouldn’t comment on this. this is actaully a great improvement, the traits are reasonably balanced (ignoring certain new exploits)
(stacking symbol guardian and or burning stacks (or a combination ,,,)

I think it’s really too early to give any opinion of merit when it seems so blatantly obvious that there will be a lot of changes to this system and the game overall in the next few months.

My initial anger and befuddlement at this new system has now been replaced by a feeling of limbo and complacency. I am still annoyed as they have pretty much destroyed any enthusiasm or motivation I had to return to the game in any sort of regular fashion, at least until the dust settles.

The vast majority of the playstyle and builds I enjoyed have all but been destroyed and there’s no way I’m wasting time or gold buying new gear to make myself viable again until you guys have finished beta testing these changes for them, and they make the according changes to create a more stable and enjoyable experience.

Right now it’s a bit of a trainwreck.

I like the specialisation system much more that what we had previously! It offers more interesting traits and trait combinations while also forcing to you make choices (due to competing trait slots). I know that some people just want to be able to configure the hell out of everything, but I don’t really see how that gives more value to the game or makes it more fun.

I love the changes, even though I mostly play thief which was not the class that got buffed the most. Changes are always exciting and the game feels refreshed.

In any trait system a player can optimize a character. Previews system just needed peaople to be able to think a bit. Now is just clicking 3 buttons because…

- I cannot choose 2 master traits,
- I cannot choose 5 trait lines

So in conclusion I am a “stupid” person that I cannot think for my self to optimize my toon!

Guys, don’t forget that in game, we create at least 5 characters. Like all of you I have my main character plus 4 others. We call it main cause is the character we enjoy more. And I am sure we all optimized it to the max.

As it comes for the rest 4 of my characters.. I created them to play around, not caring how much optimized they are but just to use specific skills and weapons I could not use with my main (warrior).

e.g.
- I have a mesmer to help people (and myself) doing JPs. Do i care if the traits are optimized? no I just choose what I feel good with.
- I have my thief. I like to run fast and use the unload skill cause of its animation and combined with the terminated Ricochet Trait. etc

What I am trying to say, to be able to figure out which is the optimal built is GOOD for a game. There are a ton of games out there where you create a toon and start killing things. Trait Point System was one of the factors that did GW2 different. And is dying.

If GW becomes a game that thinking has nothing to do with it becaue they are making the system “foolproof” so we all have optimal builds… YES game is dying and it will be a fail!

Many.8419:

I agree with OP. For me new trait system is butchery to diversity and it’s actually not even building anymore but loading predefined skill/trait sets. You know, templates.

Soo where is this butchery to diversity?

I’ve not seen it..

I said I had 5 level 80’s.. all more powerful.. yes I do but I have 11 characters in all.. and every single one of them has benefitted from this change some more drastically than others..

I see your point about templates and I understand the point you are making
but those templates are very diverse imo with multiple functions

I can take Spite on one Necro and Spite on another and get entirely different results..
in fact I can do this on 27 Necromancers just in one trait line..
and there are 5 or them to choose from giving 135 different possible build combinations.. that does not feel restrictive or anti diverse to me at all..
and with specializations incoming thats another 27 trait combinations being added..

if my math is wrong feel free to correct it.. im not ashamed of admitting my mathematical disability.. im pretty sure its accurate though

I’ve never been a wizard with build construction though.. but this new system was a breeze to work out for me..
Its as easy as picking out the traits that suit the desired playstyle you are going for and imo im spoilt for choice

I always find it funny that for so many people change means instantly failure.

adapt or do not adapt, that is up to you. use the tools given like it or not if not well then it might be not your thing but it does not make it a failure…

Everything is killing the game, and nothing is saving it.

At least, if you read the forums and reddit.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The more options there are, the more it’s possible for someone to come up with something that most others have not discovered, but which works really well. The less options there are , the more likely it is that any build you come up with is used by a large number of others. Since this lack of surprise is what Anet has been aiming for all along, it should not be a surprise that the current system accomplishes this aim. Frankly, the old system did not have a lot of surprises in it, though the new system does have fewer.

But the new system isn’t really complete yet and the old system was. I wonder how that will change when elite specializations come into play.

The way it is being presented, players will have to choose 2 of 5 existing lines, and whichever Elite line they prefer. The existing lines will have the same three choices per tier. ANet could add traits to the existing core lines, but then they could have added traits to the old trait lines just as well.

What is also likely is that since Elite Specs add a weapon and a skill type that the profession did not have, traits which buff the new weapon and the new skill type will have to come from the elite line. This means that, by default, synergy between elite lines and core lines will be found in more general traits such as those that are based around evasion, Ele attunements, thief initiative, percentage of stat X as stat Y, etc. In other words, elite lines are going to function at least in part like the existing core lines that favor certain skill types or weapon choices.

mcwurth.2081:

I always find it funny that for so many people change means instantly failure.

adapt or do not adapt, that is up to you. use the tools given like it or not if not well then it might be not your thing but it does not make it a failure…

Yes I agree that most of the time people see the change as a failure. But what we say is the logic path.

Of course a game with many players cannot die fast, it won’t close from one day to another (check gw1 people still play) but.. if it shows more “killer” changes in the future… it will lose people slowly. And most important don’t forget the competition that every day a new game appears.

Divercity makes a game rich and interesting. Killing it is NOT good. I don’t think you or anyone else can disagree with this.

Luna Leon.3480:

mcwurth.2081:

I always find it funny that for so many people change means instantly failure.

adapt or do not adapt, that is up to you. use the tools given like it or not if not well then it might be not your thing but it does not make it a failure…

Yes I agree that most of the time people see the change as a failure. But what we say is the logic path.

Of course a game with many players cannot die fast, it won’t close from one day to another (check gw1 people still play) but.. if it shows more “killer” changes in the future… it will lose people slowly. And most important don’t forget the competition that every day a new game appears.

Divercity makes a game rich and interesting. Killing it is NOT good. I don’t think you or anyone else can disagree with this.

Specializations are not killing the game. If anyone says that their super special, fun, ultra-effective build cannot work now… they are misguided. They perceived their special snowflake build as effective because every random build will work in open world, every random build will eventually get dungeons done, any build will “work” in random wvw zergfights.

The real problem is, those special snowflake builds are simply put, not good. Yes, you could have played a 3/5/3/0/3 build before specializations. Yes, you cannot make those funky support-condi-blabla builds, but honestly, you should never have made them.

I know it is fun to theorycraft and come up with stuff, then see it in action (That aspect is still there btw), but having a hundred thousand combinations out of which 2 work is not any better than having, i don’t know, a hundred combinations which enable you to actually play your class 5+ different ways.

Annika.7084:

I agree with the OP. This is nothing else than a dumb-down of the trait-system into pre-fabricated templates – cookie-cutter builds for each proffession.

Yes, but!

You underestimate the complexity of the new system.

You got 3 picks from 5 trait lines. 10 combinations.
For each combination, 3 times 3 times 3 (times 3 traitlines selected) combinations. 81 total ways to set up the traits for the 3 picked lines.
Makes for 810 total possible ways to set up the character.

Now, I understand this is significantly less than the old system. Not arguing that. But really, 810 trait setups and you consider it “dumbed down”? Really? That’s so many that no player will have any real first-hand experience with their “entire” character (plus this ignores gear/weapons!).

Maybe if we were allowed to spend 100 skill points and create our own specialization line.

For experienced GW players with a ton of hero points to spare.

Pick a tier one skill from any of the other trees, then a master, then a grandmaster.

This would replace the third specialization tree with a unique one of the player’s making. Just make the point cost about 5x the cost of a standard tree.

Then every player would have two trait lines that are in line with everyone else, but a third that is totally unique. I undestand, part of the reason was to balance in PvP, but honestly it feels like Diablo II simplistic now.

Eventually a meta will form and you guys at Anet will know where you should have grouped those skills lines together to begin with, instead of the haphazard feeling way it is now.

Luna Leon.3480:

mcwurth.2081:

I always find it funny that for so many people change means instantly failure.

adapt or do not adapt, that is up to you. use the tools given like it or not if not well then it might be not your thing but it does not make it a failure…

Yes I agree that most of the time people see the change as a failure. But what we say is the logic path.

Of course a game with many players cannot die fast, it won’t close from one day to another (check gw1 people still play) but.. if it shows more “killer” changes in the future… it will lose people slowly. And most important don’t forget the competition that every day a new game appears.

Divercity makes a game rich and interesting. Killing it is NOT good. I don’t think you or anyone else can disagree with this.

The point is with the Elite specs, allowing 3 full trait lines, combining traits, removing useless traits they actually increased effective diversity in the game. What’s the point in having a billion combination if only 10 are viable/used/effective. The real “benchmark” if a system is better or worse is the amount of actual final builds it offers, not the amount of “potential” builds.

If anything, the fact that anyone bothered to put one or two points into multiple trait lines in the first place, rather than putting more into one line, was a clear indication of how useless some master and grandmaster traits were, to the extent that they were not worth the investment into a specific trait line to get. Even when people did invest fully into a trait line, it wasn’t uncommon for them to only choose multiple adept or master traits, simply because they were better.

As things are right now, traits feel much more balanced. I’m liking that I can max out three lines instead of two because it actually lets me complete builds I only dreamed of being able to make before. Also, traits feel more appropriately balanced as far as the difference between adept, master and grandmaster traits are concerned (at least, that’s how it feels to me right now). There are probably a few that could still use some work, but as a whole I have personally found that there are a lot more useful traits to choose from now than there were before.

Most of all, I am VERY happy that they removed stats from trait lines and redistributed them in gear and the base stats of the character. It was really annoying putting points into a trait like with a valuable trait you needed, but that gave stats that were completely pointless for your build.

Killing or not, it depends on the whole player base preferences.

But as how I see the change, it is a necessary move in order to push forward into the speciality stage. If there are only 1 speciality after all, the change is not necessary and really hurting the game. But i can see the potential in it that when the 2nd, 3rd, 4….. 5 6 7th speciality released, there are unlimited build in the future.

Also it will be the easy platform for new weapon implement, whenever a new weapon released along with the corresponding trait line which no longer required to tweak our existing traits like the pre 6/23 patch. As a result will be a win win situation, with a small cost (removed the possibility to make use of half trait line).

My opinion is it is not a killing move, it is a necessary move for greater good which also come with a small cost. Give and take sort of stuff.

Derenek.8931:

Eventually a meta will form and you guys at Anet will know where you should have grouped those skills lines together to begin with, instead of the haphazard feeling way it is now.

Intentionally having imbalance within a line is a good way of balancing that line or class, though.

To explain this in detail:

• You think of 3 GM traits.
• All 3 are very strong.
• The team ponders how to balance them, but can’t think of anything which wouldn’t make them feel meh.
• Instead, the minors are intentionally made weaker than the other lines. Or the master and adept traits are. Or something.
• In total, the line is now balance, just that its power resides in the GM traits more than anything else.

People here saying that getting rid of “worthless options” or only having access to optimized builds is a good thing… How so! had this been a MOBA or Tekken fighting game then yes I might agree. But this is an MMORPG: Furthermore everyone plays builds differently. Example I rarely have seen a game with as much build freedom as in the original GW, and I loved experimenting till I found a build just for me, 1vs1 with any profession easy team functionality there as well. However many of the people whom I gave my builds would write me that they kept dying, even though their armor and skills were the same. Point, as I can’t believe I have to point out, is that everyone plays a build differently. Same with football players, the striker isn’t necessarily a good goalie. So many builds that might seem useless or confusing to other people, might’ve been played mightily by others.
I quickly adapted to this new system, and all my pvp class builds work fine, none got better, some stayed the same, only had 2 that lowered in quality, a slight increase in damage on my burn build but survivability dropped more making the improved damage output not outweight the fragility.

Well and people who are okay with getting less options, of course it is okay, the game is still fun, however the more okay with these changes people are, the more limitations we might see down the line, in the end we might even only have 2 options per class

Luna Leon.3480:

My opinion is that Specializations is a FAIL.

By having Trait lines and points we could have so many different builts.
e.g. (3-4-4-3-0, 6-6-2-0-0, 3-3-3-3-2 etc)

Even if many compinations were a “mistake” to use… We had the option to do it. It was OUR way of playing. And instead of giving us more… you limit us?

F-A-I-L !

Consider improving the game not downgrading it. Reason of an upgrade is not to see a new pretty city in GW.

Reason of an upgrade is not just give my Warrior a Greataxe to use.

Reason of an upgrade is to…

- Give my Warrior a Greataxe to use BUT most important,
- LET ME USE IT THE WAY I LIKE!

You had that and instead of improving it… You are KILLING it.

check: Specializations vs Trait Lines, Ricochet trait (Thief), etc. You are killing the fun of the game.

People make these complaints, but they were never true to begin with, this game has always had Top builds, and generally very limited, sure you can say “oh well, i could just make fun builds”… well they werent fun for ur group to play with cause more often then not it put them at a disadvantage playing with a player who Handicaps himself through building incorrectly.

this game has ALWAYS been limited in what u can viably do with ur proffession so i really dont understand the difference tbh, the way they are doing it is the most balanced way they can possibly do it, it also is alot better then just openly giving them a winner due to how much it’d really break combination wise, the idea is the NOT allow things

its much easier and more effective when it comes to balancing it also will prolly push players closer to Actual builds rather then troll ones aslong as all these elites are effective. lol, i feel the arguments invalid because the game just never had this “limitless build capacity” people try to claim it ever has had.

1) These Elites will have no effect on combinations, They are balancing it with The other specializations, not making the Elites overpowered.

2) They only offer another way of play just like any other Specialization, you dont walk into Mesmer and play Illusions / Domination / Dueling to play a PU Mesmer do you?… you take Losses in the specializations u sacrifice for your build, theres no reason why u should expect to be able to use any weapon anywhere, its just not what it is a Magic Necromancer isnt going to pick up a Greatsword… it just makes more sense they cant wield it.

3) the elites ALone havnt changed games or proffessions only given additional options, so There has been a Increase in combinations and New Playstyles which can be used in multiple ways… its also mainly done this way to make it easy to disable it for those who havnt purchased HoT.

Drayos.8759:

Luna Leon.3480:

My opinion is that Specializations is a FAIL.

By having Trait lines and points we could have so many different builts.
e.g. (3-4-4-3-0, 6-6-2-0-0, 3-3-3-3-2 etc)

Even if many compinations were a “mistake” to use… We had the option to do it. It was OUR way of playing. And instead of giving us more… you limit us?

F-A-I-L !

Consider improving the game not downgrading it. Reason of an upgrade is not to see a new pretty city in GW.

Reason of an upgrade is not just give my Warrior a Greataxe to use.

Reason of an upgrade is to…

- Give my Warrior a Greataxe to use BUT most important,
- LET ME USE IT THE WAY I LIKE!

You had that and instead of improving it… You are KILLING it.

check: Specializations vs Trait Lines, Ricochet trait (Thief), etc. You are killing the fun of the game.

People make these complaints, but they were never true to begin with, this game has always had Top builds, and generally very limited, sure you can say “oh well, i could just make fun builds”… well they werent fun for ur group to play with cause more often then not it put them at a disadvantage playing with a player who Handicaps himself through building incorrectly.

this game has ALWAYS been limited in what u can viably do with ur proffession so i really dont understand the difference tbh, the way they are doing it is the most balanced way they can possibly do it, it also is alot better then just openly giving them a winner due to how much it’d really break combination wise, the idea is the NOT allow things

its much easier and more effective when it comes to balancing it also will prolly push players closer to Actual builds rather then troll ones aslong as all these elites are effective. lol, i feel the arguments invalid because the game just never had this “limitless build capacity” people try to claim it ever has had.

1) These Elites will have no effect on combinations, They are balancing it with The other specializations, not making the Elites overpowered.

2) They only offer another way of play just like any other Specialization, you dont walk into Mesmer and play Illusions / Domination / Dueling to play a PU Mesmer do you?… you take Losses in the specializations u sacrifice for your build, theres no reason why u should expect to be able to use any weapon anywhere, its just not what it is a Magic Necromancer isnt going to pick up a Greatsword… it just makes more sense they cant wield it.

3) the elites ALone havnt changed games or proffessions only given additional options, so There has been a Increase in combinations and New Playstyles which can be used in multiple ways… its also mainly done this way to make it easy to disable it for those who havnt purchased HoT.

You’re eating your timing trying to argue with people who ‘like to wear a tophat, a tank top, a leather jacket, swim trunks, and cowboy boots’ just because it’s an ‘option’.

Telling them it’s ridiculous and inappropriate is fruitless b/c speshul snoFLAKE reasons. The ‘Dungeon Elitists’ have already tried to explain that they’re a liability to our team’s success in the ‘fashion show’ but they’re adamant that we’re just being jerks and that they’re ‘just as good and can wear what they want!’.

usernameisapain.7163:

Well and people who are okay with getting less options, of course it is okay, the game is still fun, however the more okay with these changes people are, the more limitations we might see down the line, in the end we might even only have 2 options per class

Less overall options, more VIABLE options, that’s the key with the new system. When more and more elite specs are added, we will see even more options for our characters.

As for PVP builds, judging by the powerful/meta builds a lot of them have seen a significant power/survivability boost and more builds opened up with access to 3 full trait lines. I see more variety in builds I fight than before the spec patch hit (also due to the condition damage update) and some very fixed builds now have some important variants as the 3rd line usually allows more min-maxing to more tailor a build to your tastes.

usernameisapain.7163:

People here saying that getting rid of “worthless options” or only having access to optimized builds is a good thing… How so!

Eh… because it means more diversity?

If you got 16000 spec combinations, of which ~9 are sensible, or you got 810 spec combinations of which 12 are sensible, you just increased actual diversity by 33%.

Now, ideally these numbers converge. The less things the devs have to balance, the more balanced the remaining ones will be. In other words, in the ideal case at some point you’ll have only 40 or 50 possible ways to build your char, but all are viable.

Kewl month ago necro. Yeah, specs are a cog in the great anet machine that is killing diversity.

Carighan.6758:

usernameisapain.7163:

People here saying that getting rid of “worthless options” or only having access to optimized builds is a good thing… How so!

Eh… because it means more diversity?

If you got 16000 spec combinations, of which ~9 are sensible, or you got 810 spec combinations of which 12 are sensible, you just increased actual diversity by 33%.

Now, ideally these numbers converge. The less things the devs have to balance, the more balanced the remaining ones will be. In other words, in the ideal case at some point you’ll have only 40 or 50 possible ways to build your char, but all are viable.

This is correct.

Not to mention there will be more speciality in the future, the overall build diversity will increase gradually.

Carighan.6758:

usernameisapain.7163:

People here saying that getting rid of “worthless options” or only having access to optimized builds is a good thing… How so!

Eh… because it means more diversity?

If you got 16000 spec combinations, of which ~9 are sensible, or you got 810 spec combinations of which 12 are sensible, you just increased actual diversity by 33%.

Now, ideally these numbers converge. The less things the devs have to balance, the more balanced the remaining ones will be. In other words, in the ideal case at some point you’ll have only 40 or 50 possible ways to build your char, but all are viable.

Pretty much that. It’s easier to balance thing when the number of build is limited, but at the same time you want some diversity and it’s a hard thing to achieve. Personally, I’m not in board with all the change to the specialisation, but overall the system is better. Anet still have difficult to figure out what role their trait will improve and where to put them to help that kind of build, but they didn’t do a bad job either.

Can confirm pretty much all of my characters ended up more powerful from this change.

Definitely not a fail.