Stealth - Combat feedback making it more Fun
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An addition also could be if an attack is blocked or evade they also apply a ground damaging effect but this time with no delay indicating their right there. Providing some advantage for players to respond to & some minor punishment so failing a stealth attack.
The advantage of doing it this way is it doesn’t play both players into combat still allowing blocks & evades to be used when trying to escape without being placed in combat.
The main point is to provide positive feedback for both foes against stealth & builds stealthed.
(edited by Bezagron.7352)
Hah u wish XD.Only thing you can get from stealth ( thief ) is more nerf.Yep,up to the point where stealth will last 1,5 sec like on league of legends or will be just partly invisible.That is the moment when this community of noobs that floaded forums gonna be happy since they are screaming about stealth nerf for ages.
Not many online games properly implement and balance player invisibility. Guild Wars 2 is not among that small group.
- Stealth now only stacks duration up to 3 times.
- Foes struck while in stealth suffer Shimmer (½ s); Shimmer is a unique debuff which causes the player to appear to all enemies in the same manner as if allies were viewing a stealthed ally.
- Add more super speed to stealth abilities and combos.
- Thief stealth attacks (1 slot while in stealth) now reveal the player when activated (skill still naturally executes as normal).
This is a band-aid fix, but stealth in GW2 is a shoehorned, superfluous “flavor” mechanic after all. Not much can be done. The class that abuses it the most is absolutely nothing without it, which says a lot about the shallow design of the class. Mesmer never needed stealth to begin with. Engineer didn’t need it either. Nobody needed it. The only thing to keep in mind is that there is nothing more fragile or easily baited than the ego of a MMORPG rogue player.
[suggestion] give emotes to certain stealth conditions
for example, when someone kill another player while breaking stealth
emote : <player> has stealthily killed <player>
Other conditions that warrant an emote:
Leaving combat in stealth
Killed in stealth
Thanks for the comments. I think the biggest frustration with stealth is the lack of positive feedback for players fighting against stealthed foes. While foes are stealth players have no feedback, “it’s just like swing a toy sword in thin air”. This means players have nothing to engage with, no change to locate stealthed foes or respond bar guess work & mind games, with the only input being were they initially stealthed.
Not many online games properly implement and balance player invisibility. Guild Wars 2 is not among that small group.
- Stealth now only stacks duration up to 3 times.
- Foes struck while in stealth suffer Shimmer (½ s); Shimmer is a unique debuff which causes the player to appear to all enemies in the same manner as if allies were viewing a stealthed ally.
- Add more super speed to stealth abilities and combos.
- Thief stealth attacks (1 slot while in stealth) now reveal the player when activated (skill still naturally executes as normal).
This is a band-aid fix, but stealth in GW2 is a shoehorned, superfluous “flavor” mechanic after all. Not much can be done. The class that abuses it the most is absolutely nothing without it, which says a lot about the shallow design of the class. Mesmer never needed stealth to begin with. Engineer didn’t need it either. Nobody needed it. The only thing to keep in mind is that there is nothing more fragile or easily baited than the ego of a MMORPG rogue player.
Other games typically use stealth as an initiation only method with very limited ability to re-stealth while in combat. GW2 doesn’t & actively uses stealth in combat. I like your ideas Erasmus & believe if damaging, movement & skill uses provided some improved visual feedback to players to help locate the general location of stealthed foes we could look at further skill improvements & slightly longer durations.
The soft counter being the ability to now locate the general location of stealthed foes & the hard counter being reveal. You could even tie for a soft reveal that displays foot prints or another effect helping you locate but still giving the benefit of stealth to the foe so they can receive benefit from their traited survivability.
Nah, thief doesn’t need more nerfs.
For me the biggest issue is location. Knowing someone’s general location provides enough information to plan & time your actions & guess their intent. Without this it becomes a mind game of counting & guessed actions & then reactive gameplay after the fact.
Also of note is I believe there’s also no audio feedback which could also provide help in locating or tell if foes are near you. Stealth for me should be about guess but guess with better facts & information provide an interactive game for both the stealthee & the un-stealthed.
Nah, thief doesn’t need more nerfs.
Okay this could be a slight nerf (maybe) but the largest point was these indication of position are delayed. I don’t see this as a nerf but improving stealth gameplay as now you can bait you foes into positions you want.
Also stealth skills & effect could be strengthen improving them because of this improved counterplay. This is not to nerf Thief but improve stealth gameplay for all parties.
(edited by Bezagron.7352)
Nah, thief doesn’t need more nerfs.
Okay this could be a slight nerf (maybe) but the largest point was these indication of position are delayed. I don’t see this as a nerf but improving stealth gameplay as now you can bait you foes into positions you want.
Also stealth skills & effect could be strengthen improving them because of this improved counterplay. This is not to nerf Thief but improve stealth gameplay for all parties.
The point is that we’re attempting to add a level of universal counterplay to an overpowered and poorly implemented mechanic that never needed to exist in the first place. The problem is that the player base’s collective brain is dented at this point into believing that stealth is properly executed and balanced. It happens with a lot of games: there is a very small window of opportunity in which a new mechanic or ability can be rescinded after its introduction into the community; if a developer doesn’t take the opportunity to fix or entirely remove something, the playerbase sort of just takes it for granted (even if it’s poorly done and/or blatantly overtuned).
The best thing that could be done at this stage would be to provide a universal, on-hit soft counter to stealth (the shimmer or the blood stain idea or the footprints), raise the Thief HP pool, and then nerf its damage to smooth everything out.
raise the Thief HP pool, and then nerf its damage to smooth everything out.
But Thieves can already do that by not selecting a Berserker or Marauder amulet. There’s a reason they dont. In the current game, the Thief is already at a relative disadvantage when it comes to a balance between offense and defense.
The June patch increased the damage output and defenses of other professions, but it gutted the Thief’s active defenses. It’s offensive capabilities did not increase relative to the defensive increases of the other professions. And the passive defense increases were minimal compared to the general damage output in the game.
In short, the Thief became glassier, but did not become more powerful… relatively. I’ve tried full sustain builds, and they can’t kill a fly, but they are still very fragile. That’s why I usually play glass, and sometimes, the glassiest of glass. Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes/Trickery. It’s the only build that can hope to achieve the same lethality that others have, but it dies in an instant… sometimes, not even Vamp runes can take effect.
True once implemented they can be hard to change, and this is a common problem for all implementations of stealth I find. In GW2 stealth is binary with no other inputs that can help relocate foes until they un-stealth/revealed.
The main problem I have with a transparent shimmer I find is it’s ever to easy to see or to difficult They also become further problematic with increasing particle effects. I was going to ground effects as I was looking for a tool of more general location them actual. The bonus being the ability to bait movement & position for the stealthed party.
I would be interest in testing to see it’s overall effect on thief’s survivability as I believe it only be minor & the offensive benefit of baiting will be great. The main idea is hard reveal skills are no longer needed making them no longer cancel any survivability tied to being in stealth (eg. condition removals, health regen). Reveal could be turned into this visible shimmer allowing targeting & locating but leaving the player in stealth.
In short, the Thief became glassier, but did not become more powerful… relatively.
That’s actually not true. Thieves naturally become more powerful because they rely on blind spam, teleports, perfect invisibility and instant damage. The only reason why this doesn’t work anymore (or it’s “less” effective) is because GW2 has always been balanced around two player forms: “deal damage” and “be invulnerable.” Over the course of the game’s lifetime, this has only become more and more obvious while the two forms blend together. Notice how everyone carries damage negation abilities—especially if they allow one to continue to take actions while they are in effect. Runes of Vampirism are everywhere now.
What this means is that Thief is still inherently overpowered and a flavor-based mess of a class design, but it indirectly isn’t as powerful (although it still won’t die) when everyone runs meta builds, and it is absolutely worthless at the outset of any fight because that’s the point at which everyone on the field can press a button to instantly be invulnerable.
Oh, wow, alright, so I didn’t even read your whole post and you actually mentioned Runes of Vampirism at the bottom. I told you man, that’s the meta. The only thing that Thief doesn’t have that would make it meta would be shatters that can be activated while being invulnerable without being able to take actions. In any case, the whole class boils down to effectively being a Lich Form autoattack with instant travel time, that can be reflected, and it comes with a steering wheel for a player.
tl;dr Thief is “underpowered” because everyone is invulnerable but still able to take actions. Thief is still innately overpowered in principle, but the entire game on the whole is balanced around twitchy hard counters which work to all hard counter the thief. The whole system is out of whack.
The whole system is out of whack.
Hahaha, I think I can agree with that statement as far as the Thief’s perspective goes :-P
Okay off the stealth topic but one of the main reasons I feel thieves feel overall underpowered is that their is no bruiser build options. Another half to the overall problem is the defences designed into thieves:
- Stealth
- Evasion
- Mobility
These are binary defences, stealth either invis or visible. Evasion either receive damage or none. Mobility either receiving damage or untouchable. If one or the other is too strong you become unkillable eg. invincible. As far as I see there is no sustain defence option which makes it hard to balance with evasion being the closes.
I would be interested in if the daredevil is providing this bruiser option.
Back on to stealth I think adding this “visual clues” will improve gameplay for both the stealthed with greater depth & the un-stealthed through general location information again adding depth to the counter stealth gameplay.
I would go the other way.
Give more classes decent, untargeted stealth.
Ranger should definitely have it, for a start…
The only classes that shouldn’t have it (or shouldn’t have much of it) are heavy armour, potentially tanky classes.
If necessary, for balance, make it impossible for some classes to attack from stealth (so, it’s just defensive, not offensive).
That way, it’s fairer all around, without removing/nerfing it as a mechanic for its existing users.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
I would go the other way.
Give more classes decent, untargeted stealth.
Ranger should definitely have it, for a start…
The only classes that shouldn’t have it (or shouldn’t have much of it) are heavy armour, potentially tanky classes.
If necessary, for balance, make it impossible for some classes to attack from stealth (so, it’s just defensive, not offensive).
That way, it’s fairer all around, without removing/nerfing it as a mechanic for its existing users.
Thanks quite interesting, but I wonder how much of a nerf is knowing a general location for the bonus of the ability to bait movement. I wouldn’t mind more stealth but only if you could achieve some greater positive feedback for the stealthed components of the battles.
I do like the idea of a type of stealth that can only be used to reposition & not attack, but how to you stop burst, control attacks straight after un-stealthing.
Sad that Anet already had a template for an effective Non stealth “thief” class in the GW Assassin. They tossed that, pandering to the wow rogues. “Innovation” rofl.
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I would go the other way.
Give more classes decent, untargeted stealth.
Ranger should definitely have it, for a start…
The only classes that shouldn’t have it (or shouldn’t have much of it) are heavy armour, potentially tanky classes.
If necessary, for balance, make it impossible for some classes to attack from stealth (so, it’s just defensive, not offensive).
That way, it’s fairer all around, without removing/nerfing it as a mechanic for its existing users.
Thanks quite interesting, but I wonder how much of a nerf is knowing a general location for the bonus of the ability to bait movement. I wouldn’t mind more stealth but only if you could achieve some greater positive feedback for the stealthed components of the battles.
I do like the idea of a type of stealth that can only be used to reposition & not attack, but how to you stop burst, control attacks straight after un-stealthing.
Well, I think the problem is that, if you even know a general location, it’s going to seriously reduce stealth’s effectiveness, especially in a WvW type of situation.
Clothies and leather wearers are already at a serious disadvantage in heavy AOE, zerg-type conditions and the call from the commander is very often to just get off them and onto your heavy armour classes.
Take away stealth, or even just give a general idea of the location of the stealther and you are making these classes even less viable.
TBH, if you’re going to do that, you pretty much might as well just dump them as classes altogether and make everything a variation of a heavy armour class.
Either literally, or in some other way, in terms of automatic levels of passive protection.
Which, I guess would be another solution.
On the other hand, allowing thieves to attack, serial-killer style, from stealth, from behind and then stealth again and either attack again, or run away (whichever takes their fancy!), with very little you can do about it (as a non-stealth, non-heavy armour class) is also very far from ideal.
I think, especially as a light or medium armour class, you should have the means to at least avoid that kind of highly disturbing, repeated attack, if you want to.
Giving decent, untargeted stealth to other classes would achieve that, without having to remove thieves from the game entirely, or reduce the effectiveness of their stealth to such an extent that you might as well remove them (and Mesmers).
Thieves and Mesmers would just, then, have to get used to the fact that, after their initial attack, someone in light/medium armour might choose to stealth to avoid them, rather than being attacked further, or trying to fight something they simply cannot see.
Much as Thieves and Mesmers can themselves, currently, choose to hide from others, after being attacked, if they want.
As far as a defence stealth-only class attacking, immediately after de-stealthing, is concerned, that is something someone could obviously choose to do.
However, that would either require an extra click (if you could choose to de-stealth at will) and would put that stealth ability on a longer CD, or it would require waiting for the stealth ability to expire naturally, meaning it would be pretty awkward to do, timing wise.
You could, presumably, even stick a short CD on offensive attacks, after stealth was intentionally de-activated by the user, if you wanted to?
TBH, though, I don’t even know how necessary defensive-only stealth would be, anyway?
As, as far as Ranger goes anyway, I don’t really feel that it being able to attack from stealth would be any worse than Thief, or Mesmer, currently being able to do so.
I guess Ranger knocking-back off a cliff, or Necro fearing from stealth, would be a no-no.
So, those type of attacks should almost certainly be off-limits while stealthed.
But, regular, DPS-type attacks? Not so sure.
TBH, I really only suggested totally defensive-only stealth (as opposed to regular stealth) as a possible solution, if it was deemed to be absolutely necessary.
As defensive-only stealth would still be better than nothing, at least.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
Sad that Anet already had a template for an effective Non stealth “thief” class in the GW Assassin. They tossed that, pandering to the wow rogues. “Innovation” rofl.
I’d actually argue that WoW Rogues have more in common with Sins than Theives, mainly because WoW’s engine is more similar to GW1’s as far as combat goes. The reason Rogues and Assassins worked in their games is because they had passive evasion, and skills that would lower their probability of being hit even further.
In GW2, contact equals at hit unless there’s a secondary effect in play.
Though alright, let’s trade stealth for the ability to stand still and have an 70-95% chance that your attack will do nothing.
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Stealth is a terrible game mechanic. I hate fighting Thieves in PvP, what’s fun about fighting someone you can’t see for 90% of the fight. Every time I see one at the opposing teams roster, a small part of me wants to quit the match. It’s not even like I can’t handle fighting thieves, I just irks me when they think they are amazing players when they spend the entire fight popping in and out of stealth and attacking you from behind. It is for this reason I see the thief as a cowards and skill less class to play. I know people will disagree with me, and tell me it’s high risk vs reward play style, but I fail the see the risk when you can not be seen for the vast majority of the fight.
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most thieves are not stealthed most of the fight. and it’s high risk because a visible thief is usually a dead one.
I just irks me when they think they are amazing players when they spend the entire fight popping in and out of stealth and attacking you from behind. It is for this reason I see the thief as a cowards and skill less class to play.
For me personally, it’s not that I feel like an amazing player when I get a kill, but I do feel like I made a big accomplishment.
The reason we attack from behind is because if we attacked from the front, we would be dead in a heartbeat. While Backstabs do get a big bonus from behind, even as a Sword Thief, it is wiser to teleport in, immobilize a target and hit from behind… then teleport back out before the target can turn around.
I suppose you could call it “cowardice” in a sense. We are afraid of dying. And we know if we attack from the front, we’re dead. Also, Stealth is what really allows us to get to your back… as well as do the most damage if we run a main-hand Dagger. But that was ANet’s design, not the players. We just play like we were designed.
We can’t tank damage at all like others can. Playing “dirty” is the only way to survive, and even it isn’t enough usually.
I just irks me when they think they are amazing players when they spend the entire fight popping in and out of stealth and attacking you from behind. It is for this reason I see the thief as a cowards and skill less class to play.
For me personally, it’s not that I feel like an amazing player when I get a kill, but I do feel like I made a big accomplishment.
The reason we attack from behind is because if we attacked from the front, we would be dead in a heartbeat. While Backstabs do get a big bonus from behind, even as a Sword Thief, it is wiser to teleport in, immobilize a target and hit from behind… then teleport back out before the target can turn around.
I suppose you could call it “cowardice” in a sense. We are afraid of dying. And we know if we attack from the front, we’re dead. Also, Stealth is what really allows us to get to your back… as well as do the most damage if we run a main-hand Dagger. But that was ANet’s design, not the players. We just play like we were designed.
We can’t tank damage at all like others can. Playing “dirty” is the only way to survive, and even it isn’t enough usually.
Hence why stealth is such a bad game.mechanic to use. Thief is a pure concept over balance. They want thieves to be the way they want them to be, and to hell with balance. Funny thing was the assassin from GW1, which is basically what the thief is in GW2 just renamed, used a lot of evasion stances and shadow stepping. They where still hard to deal with in the hands of a skilled player. But you knew they would be coming, but you never knew as what speed they would reach you. The daredevil is alot like more like the assassin from GW1.
most thieves are not stealthed most of the fight. and it’s high risk because a visible thief is usually a dead one.
You and I must be playing different PvP games then. Or you could say if you hit a glass cannon, then no, you where not in stealth for most of the fight. But I will bet vital parts of my anatomy that you started combat from stealth, and behind.
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(edited by BrotherBelial.3094)
They want thieves to be the way they want them to be
Honestly, I don’t even think ANet knows how they want Thieves to be. At least, the vision changes over time.
The way Stealth and Thieves is intertwined is screwed up when you take the rest of the game into account. Thieves are too dependent on it in order to survive, but they also require it to have access to some of their most powerful attacks.
I keep comparing the Thief in Guild Wars 2 to the game Ninja Gaiden. It is supposed to be evasive in order to avoid getting hit. But the Thief simply has too little access to that evasion in order to survive today’s game… especially after Acrobatics was gutted. So the only thing left is Stealth.
I love to play Sword builds, but they are still too squishy and lacking damage. They are also lacking the utility that a Dagger/Pistol build has. I have to choose between Stealth/Evasion/Boon-stealing (off-hand Dagger) or Interrupts/Blinds/Stuns (off-hand Pistol). I don’t need Stealth for offense with a Sword, but for decent condi-removal and health regeneration. Else, I’m dead quickly even with all of the evasion.
They want thieves to be the way they want them to be
Honestly, I don’t even think ANet knows how they want Thieves to be. At least, the vision changes over time.
The way Stealth and Thieves is intertwined is screwed up when you take the rest of the game into account. Thieves are too dependent on it in order to survive, but they also require it to have access to some of their most powerful attacks.
I keep comparing the Thief in Guild Wars 2 to the game Ninja Gaiden. It is supposed to be evasive in order to avoid getting hit. But the Thief simply has too little access to that evasion in order to survive today’s game… especially after Acrobatics was gutted. So the only thing left is Stealth.
I love to play Sword builds, but they are still too squishy and lacking damage. They are also lacking the utility that a Dagger/Pistol build has. I have to choose between Stealth/Evasion/Boon-stealing (off-hand Dagger) or Interrupts/Blinds/Stuns (off-hand Pistol). I don’t need Stealth for offense with a Sword, but for decent condi-removal and health regeneration. Else, I’m dead quickly even with all of the evasion.
I completely agree with you. I tried out a thief at launch, as I liked the concept of them. But playing one was so boring. And they died if they got hit by a strong breeze. So when the last trait patch dropped I tried one again. I found as you have said, D/P is really the only choice a thief has in terms of weapons as the rest are just woeful. This alone made me scrap the character. As I really didn’t want to play a class that is a one trick pony, and have to play like 90% of other players out there. It’s kind of sad when when you have to play the same as everyone else, because you have to, not because you want to.
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I used to run with a Dagger/X and Sword/Dagger build. I love running it. But for being an agile, acrobatic profession, the Thief has no inherent speed or evasive advantages over anyone else. Sadly, that makes the Shortbow very necessary. If the Thief were given some speed buffs or made the Shortbow an F3 mode, it would be so much more fun to play! Even if it were given instant-weapon swap (initiative doesn’t refill on swap), then it would be so much more agile and sustainable.
Well, I think the problem is that, if you even know a general location, it’s going to seriously reduce stealth’s effectiveness, especially in a WvW type of situation.
Clothies and leather wearers are already at a serious disadvantage in heavy AOE, zerg-type conditions and the call from the commander is very often to just get off them and onto your heavy armour classes.
Take away stealth, or even just give a general idea of the location of the stealther and you are making these classes even less viable.
TBH, if you’re going to do that, you pretty much might as well just dump them as classes altogether and make everything a variation of a heavy armour class.
Either literally, or in some other way, in terms of automatic levels of passive protection.
Which, I guess would be another solution.
Cool a blind spot I wasn’t seeing thanks Tigaseye. Well if this is a problem with knowing general location how about a baseline damage reduction while in stealth which could help.
Of note one thing I’ve already seen is stealth builds trolling quite large player groups, basically unkillable able to down & finish players as the group spreads out to try and kill them which on a whole I’m not a fan of (Although I’m very impressed with the players skill required for this). The reason being realistically what are the chance of being unseen & trackable after revealing your self.
Giving decent, untargeted stealth to other classes would achieve that, without having to remove thieves from the game entirely, or reduce the effectiveness of their stealth to such an extent that you might as well remove them (and Mesmers).
Thieves and Mesmers would just, then, have to get used to the fact that, after their initial attack, someone in light/medium armour might choose to stealth to avoid them, rather than being attacked further, or trying to fight something they simply cannot see.
Much as Thieves and Mesmers can themselves, currently, choose to hide from others, after being attacked, if they want.
Although still is another solution the problem I have with increasing the current fully invisible stealth is how much fun are invisible fights. Also how much fun are they to watch for spectators. The advantage of visible clues is players & spectators have more to interact with & spectators can laugh or shout when watching a player miss track the stealthed build.
Overall these are advantages I feel are just to great to miss out on. It provides further great stealth combat depth, with the ability of baiting positional movement & stealth tracking & greatly improves watchability.
As far as a defence stealth-only class attacking, immediately after de-stealthing, is concerned, that is something someone could obviously choose to do.
However, that would either require an extra click (if you could choose to de-stealth at will) and would put that stealth ability on a longer CD, or it would require waiting for the stealth ability to expire naturally, meaning it would be pretty awkward to do, timing wise.
You could, presumably, even stick a short CD on offensive attacks, after stealth was intentionally de-activated by the user, if you wanted to?
TBH, though, I don’t even know how necessary defensive-only stealth would be, anyway?
As, as far as Ranger goes anyway, I don’t really feel that it being able to attack from stealth would be any worse than Thief, or Mesmer, currently being able to do so.
I guess Ranger knocking-back off a cliff, or Necro fearing from stealth, would be a no-no.
So, those type of attacks should almost certainly be off-limits while stealthed.
But, regular, DPS-type attacks? Not so sure.
TBH, I really only suggested totally defensive-only stealth (as opposed to regular stealth) as a possible solution, if it was deemed to be absolutely necessary.
As defensive-only stealth would still be better than nothing, at least.
Which I find is a problem with stealth & locking offensive action from stealth. It changes a smooth playing combat into a more awkward chunky one. This I’m not sure how to adjust or improve.
Regarding ranged builds & stealth I’m not to sure. If ranged the access needs to be short durations with larger downtime as they already have the advantage of damaging at range.
Stealth is a terrible game mechanic. I hate fighting Thieves in PvP, what’s fun about fighting someone you can’t see for 90% of the fight. Every time I see one at the opposing teams roster, a small part of me wants to quit the match. It’s not even like I can’t handle fighting thieves, I just irks me when they think they are amazing players when they spend the entire fight popping in and out of stealth and attacking you from behind. It is for this reason I see the thief as a cowards and skill less class to play. I know people will disagree with me, and tell me it’s high risk vs reward play style, but I fail the see the risk when you can not be seen for the vast majority of the fight.
This I think is the heart of most frustration, Not Seeing Who Your Fighting. Although require skill & fun for the stealth profession/build it frustrating & boring to watch. Many people are not fond of mind games & mind games do not make a spectator sport. And at the moment mind games are all stealth combat is in GW2.
…
I suppose you could call it “cowardice” in a sense. We are afraid of dying. And we know if we attack from the front, we’re dead. Also, Stealth is what really allows us to get to your back… as well as do the most damage if we run a main-hand Dagger. But that was ANet’s design, not the players. We just play like we were designed.
We can’t tank damage at all like others can. Playing “dirty” is the only way to survive, and even it isn’t enough usually.
Expanding on the idea of a baseline damage reduction if they was a lingering effect say 3-5 sec would this improve survivability allow for slightly long thief engagements. With visible clues & damage reduction this turns stealth into a game of hide & seek while improving stealth’s received damage survivability.
how much fun are invisible fights.
For some reason, I actually enjoy Thief duels in the middle of a match the most. Both of them jumping into and out of Stealth, trying to one up the other. It can become like a chess match, haha! Especially when you start weapon swapping. Shortbow duels are rather amusing :-P
Of course, I mean when I’m actually involved in the duel. I don’t really get much of an audience :-P
Regarding thieves & stealth overall thieves need further options out side of stealth to improve their survivability. Evasion fits nicely with the theme but also has it’s own problem of again being a binary solution which can become unkillable.
how much fun are invisible fights.
For some reason, I actually enjoy Thief duels in the middle of a match the most. Both of them jumping into and out of Stealth, trying to one up the other. It can become like a chess match, haha! Especially when you start weapon swapping. Shortbow duels are rather amusing :-P
Of course, I mean when I’m actually involved in the duel. I don’t really get much of an audience :-P
True I’ve also enjoyed watching some thief duels but I also understand their skills & mechanics. Other times I spend more time looking at a blank screen. Add blank screen & not fully understanding their mechanics & you have something not designed for viewing.
I suppose my overall wish is to make stealth combat enjoyable for both parties making it skilful for both & making enjoyable to watch.
I suppose my overall wish is to make stealth combat enjoyable for both parties making it skilful for both & making enjoyable to watch.
I posted this idea in the Thief forum. So it’s just a concept to allow a bit of “actively passive” counterplay to Stealth while not giving up advantages of proper positioning.
My suggestion:
- Gives thieves the trait: Armored Reveal.
Armored Reveal- Reveal allows the use of all the stealth passive traits.
If I have reveal and I have armored Reveal trait, Shadow Rejuvenation, Shadow Embrace, Resilience of Shadows will still work.
This is a nice middleground that will keep the thief alive even if the enemy has reveal.
5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
A passive ability to see Stealthed foes only when they are in front of you (the front quadrant), and only in the “ghost” form that you and allies see yourself as when Stealthed. Think of Halo’s active camouflage.
The “ghost” form will only be visible from the front quadrant. From the sides and rear, Stealth will be completely invisible. There will still be no way to target a Stealthed enemy.
Thanks I like the idea, but how about along with visible clues which I believe is a great option for enjoyable viewing & adds, I feel improved hide & seek stealth gameplay this becomes the major reveal skills debuff effect. More along a the line of a of a soft detection allowing players to see & target the stealthed build but still providing stealth builds benefit of their stealth skills & traits.
The objective with the visible clues was to provide a means of general location but without actually giving that location away. So players were still guessing the exact location. Turning reveal into two types soft & hard. Provide greater skill options & the soft option benefits both parties.
My idea is to address the issues with complete invisibility to play against & to watch while still having this guessing game.
My suggestion:
- Gives thieves the trait: Armored Reveal.
Armored Reveal- Reveal allows the use of all the stealth passive traits.
If I have reveal and I have armored Reveal trait, Shadow Rejuvenation, Shadow Embrace, Resilience of Shadows will still work.
This is a nice middleground that will keep the thief alive even if the enemy has reveal.
Regarding thieves this would be a fantastic trait. Just wondering could if be too strong if make baseline for stealth & reveal?
To requote from another thread:
…
The main problem is a hoarding of information on the stealthing player’s side, so to balance the stealthed player should also not get perfect information, being unable to tell enemy player’s health total or condition/boon status would be a equivalent exchange for a properly powered backstab.
…That’s quite an interesting idea I like. Provide alittle less information for the stealthed party as well with the idea that their focusing so much on stealthing that it’s difficult to analysis targets true condition. Not that it’s a true lose of information as all the stealthed build needs to do is look at the target to see ingame boon, condition effects, but this takes alittle more work.
Another idea for a visible clue is a dust cloud.
- Blood Strains – If damaged the thief/stealth build leaves a small hard to see blood stain behind after a small delay (Allows for repositioning so not directly giving professions position away) while still staying in stealth. Blood strains could stack if damaged multiply times increasing their visibility.
- Leap/teleport impacts – leave a small hard to see ground damage effect after leaping or teleporting, again with a small delay to allow reposition.
I think one unintended consequence with delays is that it will cause many people to complain that there is a delay, and that it should be instant. And if they are instant, it almost defeats the purpose of Stealth. If it were implemented, such cues would have to be hard to see, and even then, perhaps only in the front quadrant (in front) of a character. It’s very important for a Thief to be able to flank a target. In order for a target to literally half a Thief’s damage, all he has to do is turn around. That’s how difficult things are for Thieves these days.
As a Thief, I have to fight Stealth also (even non-Thieves). That’s one reason I take a Sigil of Fire with me almost always. Not only does it allow me to know if I hit someone in Stealth, it also helps me to determine if I downed an opponent who is in Stealth. It may not be applicable always, but it does help.
I think one unintended consequence with delays is that it will cause many people to complain that there is a delay, and that it should be instant. And if they are instant, it almost defeats the purpose of Stealth. If it were implemented, such cues would have to be hard to see, and even then, perhaps only in the front quadrant (in front) of a character. It’s very important for a Thief to be able to flank a target. In order for a target to literally half a Thief’s damage, all he has to do is turn around. That’s how difficult things are for Thieves these days.
As a Thief, I have to fight Stealth also (even non-Thieves). That’s one reason I take a Sigil of Fire with me almost always. Not only does it allow me to know if I hit someone in Stealth, it also helps me to determine if I downed an opponent who is in Stealth. It may not be applicable always, but it does help.
I think people will always complain with regard to stealth. For me the delayed visible clues improve the game of hide & seek for both parties. One tying to hide to attack in the right position or flee. The other tying to seek to avoid the attack or analysis foes intent. Regarding the clues themselves you could have differing visibility & delays:
- Using rush or a teleport in stealth leaves a dust cloud behind but you don’t know which direction they moved to.
- A leap in stealth could leave a small crater ground effect (after delay).
- On gaining or renewing super speed or swiftness leaves 2-3 footsteps which can be hard to see but tell the direction travelled.
- Damage leaves blood strains
It’s adding tells like this that Sigil of Fire currently provides which with make for a more engaging stealth fight for me. As it also provides more visible feedback I would find it more enjoyable to watch. Spectators could now tell it a player was out playing a foe or being out played.
Remove stealth from any class that isn’t a thief.
its been said before stealth is fine as long as the user is revealed if he misses an attack When Blinded or he attacks a blocking/invuln player
I find these threads fall into two categories:
-People who play a stealth character, asking for buffs
-People who do not play a stealth character, asking for nerfs
To the second camp, i have to say: Play as a stealthy character. You may see stealth as this overwhelming advantage – which it is, you’re totally invisible and untargetable! – Except that it’s still somehow not (except maybe for mesmers).
I dislike the whole ‘L2P’ thing but, unlike most games which incorporate stealth, it really is simply a matter of being outplayed. A thief who you outskill will not be able to beat you by relying on stealth – they may be able to escape, perhaps, but if you know what you’re doing even that is unlikely.
On the other hand, skillfully playing a thief (in pvp, at least) is utterly dependent on effective and strategic use of stealth. Thieves are already one of the most badly undertuned, high skill professions and further kicking their class mechanic while it’s already down is bordering on sadism.
To balance stealth every class should have stealth or a stealth counter (reveal skill i.e. Sick Em) according to the feel of the class. Not both (looking at you Ranger).
And opponents/allies in stealth should be able to see each other like teammates. ie. The odd “I’m wearing the One Ring” shimmer effect.
These two changes provide every class with an option/counter for when ever they face a stealth using class. And it provides better game play between stealth users. This also eliminates/negates any future wining from those who die to stealth because it now becomes a complete “learn to play” your class’ stealth counter issue.
Verum et Vitae
And opponents/allies in stealth should be able to see each other like teammates. ie. The odd “I’m wearing the One Ring” shimmer effect.
Ah, I have a post about something similar to this…
Shadow Realm
Remove stealth from any class that isn’t a thief.
Terrible idea.
No offence to the nicer PVP/WvW thief players (I’m sure they must exist?), but you already have all the worst (as in, the would-be serial killers) kind of people using thief and newer players and classes like Ranger, are their constant prey.
People can try to say that anti-stealth measures, like sic’em, are somehow equal to untargeted stealth, or imply that 3 secs of solely targeted stealth, on a significant CD, is of any real worth in WvW, as much as they like.
The truth is that Rangers are called “free bags”, in WvW, for good reason and making thieves the only stealth users would just exacerbate that situation even further.
This is why I say “If you can’t (or shouldn’t) beat them, join them.”.
Give more classes untargeted stealth.
Either that, or just remove all stealth from everyone and let highly unpleasant classes, like thief (and to a lesser extent, Mesmer), die a natural death (or evolve entirely).
The main reason I am against the latter idea, is because I really, really, don’t want to be put in the position where I am forced to fight every single person I meet (and who decides they want to attack me), while running to catch up with the zerg.
This is exactly why I switched to Mesmer – so, I could avoid constant combat.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
I find these threads fall into two categories:
-People who play a stealth character, asking for buffs
-People who do not play a stealth character, asking for nerfs
What about the Spectators watching the fight?
If your looking for any viewing audience don’t they want to actually want to see everything having? It’s fine your using the stealthed build as the view point but how does this fight appear from the non stealth view point?
For me adding visible clues helps not only the non stealthed fight but also provides more combat interactions for the stealthed build in manipulation of the un-stealth’s movement through baiting from these visible clues.
Another question I have is how much positive feedback is there for the un-stealthed party for responding correctly & successfully? Not using the stealth builds view point how much positive feedback & interaction do they receive?
Last I believe if you have these visible clues you could remove hard stealth counters (forced reveal) which are unfun for the stealthed party just as much as stealth can be for the un-stealthed party. So from hard you could go to soft. Shimmers, telling location if paiding attention & allowing targeting but leaving stealthed foes stealthed.
its been said before stealth is fine as long as the user is revealed if he misses an attack When Blinded or he attacks a blocking/invuln player
Although this was something I would like I feel it’s too punishing for thieves (so far other stealth builds don’t loss out on as much as thieves). A think of it this way, yes you just blocked, evaded, dodged, was invuln or they were blinded but your still unaware that that the stealthed build is still there. Like someone touching you on the shoulder, you look around & no ones there. You think it was something of your imagination, as such they can stay stealthed.
But they just made a mistake & there should be some type of punishment. What I would look at with visible clues is providing their positional information for foes that are paying attention. The stealth build can have another chance but they have just let you know their are there making another shot just that little bit more risky.
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