Guild Wars 2

Revisiting the topic- i remember seeing some video about this about a year ago when Archeage hype was building up. A big debate on a youtube video about stealth as a mechanic in MMO’s.

1. It’s become an accepted mechanic that “stealth” or “invisibility” is more or less not being see anymore. It’s like -poof- now you’re gone. In its defense- Blizzard did an excelent job in Starcraft and Heroes of the storm in making invisible units still noticeable to the keen eye.

Some MMO’s also cause invisible player’s to show if they are too close to another player.

The problem here is that while invisibility is not exactly invulnerability- in many cases it is. Not the type of invulnerability like getting a star in super mario- but actually a bit different in execution- while you can’t attack, its obvious that you won’t be attacked AND no one knows where you are.

Which gives you everything you need to be as oppertunistic as you want. Lets talk about some of the little things.

1. Many player’s (even good ones) can choke from time to time, misclick or make a mistake. This is drastically reduced if the player can begin his attack whenever he want’s from any position he wants. You can even imagine in your head the precise rotation you want to do for the given situation.

So in other words- its like you’re playing chess and the clock doesnt start until you want it to.

2. Being able to disengage opens up a MASSIVE amount of opportunities for you.

A. Enemy just used a buff you can’t fight against? Wait it out
B. Odds somehow turned against you based on position or outnumbered? Wait it out

These mechanics became well known to me as i became the top Arena player in Archeage playing a class called “Shadowblade” which used stealth and disables. I always fought on my terms and that allowed me to potentially beat any class- even those which countered mine specifically.

In conclusion.

Stealth is = but less offensively viable than complete invulnerability, allows you to fight on you’re terms, has no immediate counter skill (no ability to keep someone from stealthing or to reveal stealth players) thus making it one of those abilities thats always safe to use. And as an added bonus- gives you time to think about you’re next move (clockless chess). This is why stealth/invisibility as a mechanic will always be overpowered.

I really liked how A-Net did Assassins in Guild Wars. They didn’t give them Stealth. Instead Assassins had Shadow-Step which would basically port them short distances to attack and then port them back to original spot. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_stepping

And here, we show an example of balance stealth made by company “X”.

<shows a video of 200 stealth units getting completely slaughtered against a “balanced unit”>
“This is balanced stealth”.

Alright, carry on.

But in Guild Wars 2, the stealth a thief has is really subjective, it depends if the thief concentrates havenly on stealth but has lower dmg, or shorter stealth and higher dmg.

Also, yes you can be attacked, hit, knocked down, dazed, everything while stealth.
You want to say that Stealth is almost invulnerability?… well maybe it is, maybe it’s not…and from my PvP experience is not… but think about this the other way around:

The Defense and HP a Thief has is high enough that it won’t die from another players spit. All it takes is 1 stun, and maybe 1 small mistake on thiefs part and BOOM dead.

I’ve been killed more times than i care to remember in stealth,

and in the end, stealth means nothing if you don’t know how to play the class.

Enemy able to see the thief while in stealth? Bomm done…ruined class that no one will ever play, why? cause its amazingly easy to die with a thief even in PvE if you’re not paying attention.

Do you know what is overpower?(well maybe not but it’s certainly something annoying) Mesmers with thousands of exploding illusions….how can you kill the enemy if he is surrounded by hundreds of clones that explode when you destroy them…in the end either i stop persuing cause of my hp…or the mesmer manages to escape.

Also try taking an interest point from an engi with tourets…i dare you,i double dare you.

Also some guardians? imposible to kill…I mean…how much hp can one have, how many heals?

Elementalists? don’t even get me started….most i encountered werent great…but there were a few amazing ones, that ele has everything quite a spectacular class.

Warrior with the “No damage buff” ? you’re happy if you escape before he stuns you or knocks you down.

Necromancer? Don’t even get me started…that demonic form or whatever that saves his behind untill reinforcements come? charming

And in the end, playing against another thief? I have the most fun right there…

I understand you hate thieves, but every class has that one annoying thing for every other class. Just cause you can’t deal with thieves, doesn’t mean we’re overpowerd….we’ve been nerfed to the center of the earth

It was to show the distortion effect of cloaked units. Ghost against Dark Templars would be like pitting 1st/2nd edition DnD rogues against fighters in mano-a-mano combat.

Still, stealth is already susceptible to AoEs and DOTs isn’kitten Letting you see a shimmer would make it pointless because then people would know exactly where to flush you out.

Although DAOC used a combination – you were invisible while too far away, and if you hung around close to an enemy while stealth they’d see your invisible model.

Stealth needs more counter play. For example, if you block or evade a backstab attempt from a thief, it should reveal them. This will promote higher skill cap and strategies between both parties.

Doon.2364:

Stealth needs more counter play. For example, if you block or evade a backstab attempt from a thief, it should reveal them. This will promote higher skill cap and strategies between both parties.

No, terrible idea because of how stealth works in gw2.

You can’t just sit in stealth forever without any indications.

Blocks/evades are far too plentiful.

If you’re using a dagger OH with thief, the ini + must land c&d requirements were already met. With d/p the ini cost is far higher and you can interrupt them before the HS. The only stealth you can’t prevent is the blinding powder utility. What you’re asking is for there to be counters before and after. That’s redic.

Stealth in GW2 is fine in PvP. If they are stealthed they are not capping or doing damage. Thieves are good in PvP not primarily because of their stealth, but because of their mobility which allows them to back cap and +1 fights.

Stealth in WvW is whatever because WvW is massively imbalanced in far greater ways than just stealth (coverage/numbers > all).

There are classes/builds that don’t care much if the opponent goes into stealth (eng/necro/ranger).

The only thing I can see stealth is a little off is how a mes can drop AI (and thus still deal damage) while remaining in stealth, but even then not a huge deal since they can’t cap or hold a point and mes ai dies when you sneeze at it.

I can’t rapidfire a thief, have them stealth halfway through, and have the full attack still hit, downing them, and think that stealth is overpowered.

Mesmer invis is much more Difficult to deal with than thief stealth, like aberrent noted they can still damage while invis’d (via clones/phantasms).

Why is everyone talking about thieves and not the mechanic itself?

Invoker.5462:

Why is everyone talking about thieves and not the mechanic itself?

No other class has access to it enough to make much difference.

Mesmer does, but it has been mentioned already.

Ranger longbow stealth is pretty annoying too ><

Galphar.3901:

I really liked how A-Net did Assassins in Guild Wars. They didn’t give them Stealth. Instead Assassins had Shadow-Step which would basically port them short distances to attack and then port them back to original spot. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_stepping

It was repeatedly beaten with a nerf bat, just as much as the thief in gw2.

Pretty sure it’s not stealth or bursts or anything like that… rather it’s the feeling of a “fair” fight that people seem to always be looking for. Whatever “fair” might mean.

Also, looks like OP is basing his calling stealth OP from his experience playing an entirely different game…

Stealth in C9 was useless unless you are intruding or trying to lose aggro in TDM, ranged skill can be aimed at you as well other many factors. It felt like a filler lol. In BnS it’s fine also. Stealth itself is a bridge what matters is what you gain/lose from having it.

Windsagio.1340:

Also, looks like OP is basing his calling stealth OP from his experience playing an entirely different game…

NOt trying to be a kitten here but how many fallacy’s are you going to put into this thread? You’re on a roll buddy

I’m coming from a moderately large amount of matches of pvp played for someone who’s primarily PVE-centered.

Stealth in this game is not the huge problem you’re making it to be, especially in conquest maps. Cooldowns are mostly pretty fast (sub 60 seconds), and a thief that disengages in stealth, if don’t get ae bombed by classes that do that (although that’kitten or miss) are ceding the control point, at least temporarily.

Stealth is good for +1’ing a fight, but speed and range are just as good if not better.

Stealth is good for disengaging, but that means you’ve had to disenagage.

Opening strikes in stealth are good, but it’s not as devastating as most mmo’s.

Stealth is strong enough to have a use but simply isn’t all that strong in GW2.

It’s arguably worse in WvW and PvE, especially on thieves.

Everyone, please remember: Thief and Stealth are 2 separate issues.

Stealth as a mechanic is stupid and overpowered.
Thief is a horribly terrible profession that is leaning on a overpowered mechanic.

Fix Stealth and Thieves will finally be recognized that they need severe help.

Invoker.5462:

Why is everyone talking about thieves and not the mechanic itself?

It’s not about the class, but the ability to Learn 2 Play and counter Stealth.

The bigger problem for me is the lack of cooldown on skills, which means a thief can macro a chain and spam 5-6 skills in under a second, all whilst you are rooted due to a venom.

The stealth mechanic isn’t all that bad in pvp, as others have mentioned if they are in stealth they can’t cap, and most of the time you can see them coming.

florence.1674:

Everyone, please remember: Thief and Stealth are 2 separate issues.

Stealth as a mechanic is stupid and overpowered.
Thief is a horribly terrible profession that is leaning on a overpowered mechanic.

Fix Stealth and Thieves will finally be recognized that they need severe help.

Just as i began to lose hope in these replies- a good re-wording for those (if not all) readers of this thread that don’t seem to comprehend my mid sized wall of text.

As much as I understand exactly what OP is saying, I can honestly say that at no point have I ever felt thieves had any kind of distinct advantage over me.

Most of my encounters with Thieves end with them stealthing and running away, or simply dying. Sure there are the opportunist ones that jump in when you are fighting someone else, but that could be any class really.

If I could see what classes have killed me the most, I doubt Thief would even be top 5. So it’s hard for me to say stealth is OP when it’s never really felt OP in any of the PvP/WvW encounters I’ve had.

Invoker.5462:

florence.1674:

Everyone, please remember: Thief and Stealth are 2 separate issues.

Stealth as a mechanic is stupid and overpowered.
Thief is a horribly terrible profession that is leaning on a overpowered mechanic.

Fix Stealth and Thieves will finally be recognized that they need severe help.

Just as i began to lose hope in these replies- a good re-wording for those (if not all) readers of this thread that don’t seem to comprehend my mid sized wall of text.

If stealth is OP then Invulnerability is more OP. If you say you want stealth removed because it’s OP then you also want invulnerability removed.

Additionally I see a huge fallacy in that the OP of the thread is trying to argue with stealth as a concept and not arguing about it’s implementation in the game.

Arguing about the concept of stealth is irrelevant without it’s practical implementations in the game.

Given the implementation in conquest, it’s not OP. For stronghold we’ll see.

Victory.2879:

The bigger problem for me is the lack of cooldown on skills, which means a thief can macro a chain and spam 5-6 skills in under a second, all whilst you are rooted due to a venom.

The stealth mechanic isn’t all that bad in pvp, as others have mentioned if they are in stealth they can’t cap, and most of the time you can see them coming.

Every class has skills available to get out of that, use them.

Windsagio.1340:

Victory.2879:

The bigger problem for me is the lack of cooldown on skills, which means a thief can macro a chain and spam 5-6 skills in under a second, all whilst you are rooted due to a venom.

The stealth mechanic isn’t all that bad in pvp, as others have mentioned if they are in stealth they can’t cap, and most of the time you can see them coming.

Every class has skills available to get out of that, use them.

BP>HS has a lower cooldown than any class’s defensive cooldowns.

Thieves have so many resets where other classes have to pay for their mistakes with death.

There’s a good reason why such a vast amount of solo roamers in WvW happen to be thieves. It’s impossible to die if you don’t want to. The one class where even if things don’t go your way you can just reset and harass until the situation favors you.

I’d love to force some of these thieves and roaming warriors to play a Necromancer for a change.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Invoker.5462:

Why is everyone talking about thieves and not the mechanic itself?

It’s not about the class, but the ability to Learn 2 Play and counter Stealth.

In the case of the Thief, its actually all about the class.

The problem isnt stealth itself – I like how GW2 made stealth in theory, a more action in combat type of stealth than the passive perma stealth other games have – but the way the initiative system work on the Thief. Its way too easy achieve near perma stealth in combat if you spec for it. Combine it with nearly broken combat mechanics that can achieve insane damage, not to mention condition removal in stealth, and you got an OP combo. I would much rather see the Thief having more HP and less stealth to make a more balanced class.

For the Mesmer, again the stealth itself isnt so bad, its the mechanics around it. Clones and boons can become overwhelming. Basicly same deal as the Thief, just another angle (and not even close on the perma-stealth aspect).

The ranger lb stealth is just a kittened brainfart by Anet when some developer thought “duuuh what can we do to make the ranger more used, I know, stealth!” instead of them actually fixing the broken pet mechanic that ruin its group content usability.

florence.1674:

Everyone, please remember: Thief and Stealth are 2 separate issues.

Stealth as a mechanic is stupid and overpowered.
Thief is a horribly terrible profession that is leaning on a overpowered mechanic.

Fix Stealth and Thieves will finally be recognized that they need severe help.

Hopefully the new specialization for thieves helps break away from it.

Zenith.7301:

Windsagio.1340:

Victory.2879:

The bigger problem for me is the lack of cooldown on skills, which means a thief can macro a chain and spam 5-6 skills in under a second, all whilst you are rooted due to a venom.

The stealth mechanic isn’t all that bad in pvp, as others have mentioned if they are in stealth they can’t cap, and most of the time you can see them coming.

Every class has skills available to get out of that, use them.

BP>HS has a lower cooldown than any class’s defensive cooldowns.

Thieves have so many resets where other classes have to pay for their mistakes with death.

There’s a good reason why such a vast amount of solo roamers in WvW happen to be thieves. It’s impossible to die if you don’t want to. The one class where even if things don’t go your way you can just reset and harass until the situation favors you.

I’d love to force some of these thieves and roaming warriors to play a Necromancer for a change.

If you’re complaining about solo roamers, you’re already complaining about something silly.

In PVE stealth is like, super bad, exept for runs and skips.

In PvP mass stealth has some good, but limited and specific uses, and solo stealth is also good but absolutely not broken.

In arena fights and Wv roamers, both of which have very little to do with any real goals, I can see it being quite strong.

Stealth in GW2 isn’t overpowered because it has a very short duration. In PVE and sPVP Stealth is a MUST for Thief survival and creates very interesting gameplay. I can understand where the problem is, in WvW, where Thieves can easily escape from almost any situation. But it’s not easy to solve this issue without breaking Stealth in PVE/sPVP where it’s absolutely fine.

maddoctor.2738:

Stealth in GW2 isn’t overpowered because it has a very short duration. In PVE and sPVP Stealth is a MUST for Thief survival and creates very interesting gameplay. I can understand where the problem is, in WvW, where Thieves can easily escape from almost any situation. But it’s not easy to solve this issue without breaking Stealth in PVE/sPVP where it’s absolutely fine.

Noting that it’s not terribly broken in actual battles in WvW only. It’s only really good in single/small group skirmishing.

How i would fix it.
Stealth is awesome, but in order to stealth you either have to:
a) be out of player view point of sight.
b) blind target in order to be able to stealth again.

Currently it’s to easy to get in stealth. This would need some mechanics in my opinion.

Windsagio.1340:

maddoctor.2738:

Stealth in GW2 isn’t overpowered because it has a very short duration. In PVE and sPVP Stealth is a MUST for Thief survival and creates very interesting gameplay. I can understand where the problem is, in WvW, where Thieves can easily escape from almost any situation. But it’s not easy to solve this issue without breaking Stealth in PVE/sPVP where it’s absolutely fine.

Noting that it’s not terribly broken in actual battles in WvW only. It’s only really good in single/small group skirmishing.

True.

I think most people upset with Stealth are those who find Thieves roaming around in WvW and even though they manage to outplay them, bringing them close to death while they have nearly zero damage, the Thief manages to escape and run away.

Since the problem is WvW roaming related, I think the Stealth traps should be tweaked to be more usable in that situation and disallow an easy Thief escape.

I really don’t think stealth is that OP. I mean, maybe in terms of survivability and escape mechanics, it has a lot of uses, but from a pure combat perspective, there’s enough counter play to make it a bit of a moot point.

I don’t play PvP and WvW too often, but when I do, it’s usually with my medi guard and I have to say, I really don’t have many issues with stealth backstab thieves at all. I have enough blocks and blinds to avoid any big backstab bursts and usually those four seconds that the thief is revealed for are enough to dish out heavy damage to them, especially if they are glassy. More often than not, a thief is either running from me after a short exchange, or they are dying. The only time it feels like they have an overwhelming advantage against me is when they have friends.

Mesmers are a but more of an issue because clones can confuse, but their stealth skills have longer cooldowns so once you zone down on them it becomes a bit easier. I will admit to having more issues with mesmers than I ever have with thieves though.

Rangers are okay as well. With rune of the trapper they can stealth quite often, but no more than thieves can and they don’t get any particular advantage to entering stealth like thieves do, aside from avoiding damage for a few seconds or gaining an opportunity to escape combat. Still, I don’t often fight stealth rangers 1vs1 so it’s hard to tell how balanced it is overall.

All-in-all, I haven’t been in a situation where I ever thought “OMG! Stealth is so OP! PLS nerf!”. When I do lose to stealth characters it never feels like an overwhelming loss and feels more like it’s just because the other player played better than me. If I was losing constantly to it despite player skill, then yes, I’d call it out, but I’ve never really felt that way. Maybe that’s just my class and build though. Maybe other classes have a lot more issues with it.

-Very obscure comment below-

I respect skill, so it’s hard to be angry at a Thief who’s good. However, at the very same time, a good Thief is almost impossible to kill. Because if a good Thief doesn’t want you to catch them, you won’t. I appreciate that they know their profession and that it’s taken practice to achieve what they do but it’s kind of on a whole different level. A good Warrior might be extremely difficult to kill because he uses his blocks, stability and invulnerability at the right times but he can still be caught and, if people add to the fight, outnumbered. A good Thief however, it doesn’t really matter if people add to the fight or not. If he doesn’t want to be caught, he won’t unless he makes a huge mistake.

I don’t think stealth is broken and there are ways, albeit flimsy, to fight against it. The problem is that when a person practices the profession enough they kind of make stealth OP… It’s hard to say it’s broken when it takes skill to break it, you know?

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Rangers are okay as well. With rune of the trapper they can stealth quite often, but no more than thieves can and they don’t get any particular advantage to entering stealth like thieves do, aside from avoiding damage for a few seconds or gaining an opportunity to escape combat. Still, I don’t often fight stealth rangers 1vs1 so it’s hard to tell how balanced it is overall.

Relevant to this paragraph, trapper Rangers also will be dealing significantly less damage if they’re stealthing a lot. To be constantly stealthing means their traps aren’t hitting you, because as soon as you trigger them they get revealed. I say this as someone who has played many hours a trapper Ranger. The Ranger can stealth for about half a second which can make it irritating to fight against because you’ll constantly be dropping your target but that’s all it really is. As long as they’re hitting you with their traps they’re only going to get a split second of stealth before they’re revealed. If they’re in stealth a lot and for lengthy periods of time, they’re not dealing much damage to you because they’re intentionally putting their traps in places you won’t trigger them.

… Also I’m very tired and I think I’m using “they’re” improperly so excuse my grammar… Is it “their”? … I should go to bed.

Stealth in Vanilla WoW and Vanilla Rift was pretty good and balanced.

I just read something like “I would prefer a thief with more hp and less stealth” … so what the point anymore? if it would just become something close to a warrior.

People, like i said in my wall of text, every class has something annoying and overpowerd in different parts of the games…why all the thief hate? If we’re talking about PvP i do hate mesmers and engis….if we’re talking about WvW i mostly hate rangers, i get attacked before i even notice the ranger, and that range with the longbow….i already have 50% hp left before i can either stealth to run away or to engage.

And also in PvE, bosses that one hit us…do you know how annoying it is to be one shot…and you can only evade so much…it depends on the dungeon party, but sometimes all it takes is one mistake at the final boss and boom kicked out of the party.

I would really like everyone against stealth (And mostly when you say stealth you say Thief, cause yes mesmers and ragers have it, but they don’t use it like Thieves do…so don’t hide behind the words here) to say what class they main and what’s the most powerfull skill/combo, how they win in WvW and PvP and you’ll see that every class has certain something like i said in my 4th post here.

Also comparing GW2 stealth to other games? In WoW you are invisible for as long as you want, powerfull backstab…and also double the speed or 50% more, i don’t remember…

The only reason Stealth is not fixed is because it prevents capping and thus thieves are not OP in Conquest.

In WvW, it’s a ridiculously no-risk, high-reward mechanic that has little counterplay save from using stealth traps. The very notion that Anet had to introduce a trap in WvW to combat a single character mechanic tells me it’s broken.

If I would fix stealth, I would prevent stacking the duration and preventing new applications of stealth being applied while already in stealth. This would fix most problems stealth brings in WvW while still keeping it a viable combat mechanic.

Shadow refuge would have to be redone if this change was made, obviously.

Stealth is OP in this game but I doubt it’ll ever be fixed, for the amount of opposition against it being balanced is high. I despise Stealth, as it is now, mainly because it has no direct counter.

Akagami.9861:

I would really like everyone against stealth (And mostly when you say stealth you say Thief, cause yes mesmers and ragers have it, but they don’t use it like Thieves do…so don’t hide behind the words here) to say what class they main and what’s the most powerfull skill/combo, how they win in WvW and PvP and you’ll see that every class has certain something like i said in my 4th post here.

I main ranger. I think mmo stealth is a generally atrocious mechanic due to its massively “unfun” nature to the opposition: can’t see it coming, can’t anticipate it, and can only guess react. But all game devs seem to feel compelled to put it in to ensure the ninja-fan crowd plays their game.

In the case of gw2, it’s only getting worse imho, as rather than either break it down (too late for that) or leave it at that (probably the only sensible option now), they actually give more of it…

As i said, i main a ranger, which means i was gifted stealth on LB3 for some reason. And later with the Superior Runes of the Trapper, i’ve got a not-permastealth-but-boy-does-it-feel-like-it build which, while hilarious for me, must be one of the most annoying fights ever for the people i encounter. Well, PU mesmer is probably worse, but stealth-trap ranger has got to be close. This on a class that didn’t have stealth in the first place. There were tons of alternative way to boost rangers and traps, yet they chose to gift us with the most annoying mechanic (for the enemy) in game.

Revealed skills are probably the only thing so far that went in the right direction, and they’re way too restricted (Sic’em on ranger, and the toolbelt skill on engie, or are there more?). Unless trap-stealthing myself, i never go out in wvw without my Sic’em slotted, but i have yet to be revealed even once while abusing the Trapper Runes.

There are alot of counters against stealth, so stop complaining about things you cant handle and learn to handle them @ at all those who have some wierd idea that stealth is this amazing thing and rather l2p than complain about it.

Azhure.1857:

Stealth is OP in this game but I doubt it’ll ever be fixed, for the amount of opposition against it being balanced is high. I despise Stealth, as it is now, mainly because it has no direct counter.

Ok think of it this way, thieves have alot of damage but little health, so take away stealth and they will be like really squishy warriors with little to survive, other than shadowstep which you people will probally complain about after they ’ in a alternate universe’ nerf stealth. So please, think before you type. Also there is nothing to be fixed, it is the way its supposed to be and it accaully has counters btw.

Stealth and pets will never work right in any mmo with a game enviroment like gw2

Easy fix to stealth would be to make it ‘stealthy’, ie you move slower whilst in stealth, so you give up your mobility in order to be invisible.
One of the perceived problems is that thiefs can outrun almost anything whilst not being seen.

Centurion.7296:

There are alot of counters against stealth, so stop complaining about things you cant handle and learn to handle them @ at all those who have some wierd idea that stealth is this amazing thing and rather l2p than complain about it.

Azhure.1857:

Stealth is OP in this game but I doubt it’ll ever be fixed, for the amount of opposition against it being balanced is high. I despise Stealth, as it is now, mainly because it has no direct counter.

Ok think of it this way, thieves have alot of damage but little health, so take away stealth and they will be like really squishy warriors with little to survive, other than shadowstep which you people will probally complain about after they ’ in a alternate universe’ nerf stealth. So please, think before you type. Also there is nothing to be fixed, it is the way its supposed to be and it accaully has counters btw.

Newsflash, every berserker geared class is squishy.

Stop being so dishonest, a single mug+backstab combo from a berserker thief on another berserker removed about 60-70% of their health and it can be done shortly again to finish them off if your heartseeker spam for some reason failed.

Invoker.5462:

Stealth is = but less offensively viable than complete invulnerability, allows you to fight on you’re terms, has no immediate counter skill (no ability to keep someone from stealthing or to reveal stealth players) thus making it one of those abilities thats always safe to use. And as an added bonus- gives you time to think about you’re next move (clockless chess). This is why stealth/invisibility as a mechanic will always be overpowered.

A couple of things.

1) You will need to explain on what terms stealth is “widely accepted as not being see[n] anymore.”

2.) Stealth is not clockless chess in GW2. As was stated above, the traits that favor stealth as a mechanic all sacrifice damage output in exchange for longer duration. Most stealths last less than three seconds unassisted, with the minor outlier having an interruptible cast time and Shadow Refuge essentially marking a wide circle with “here is where the thief is hiding.”

3.) It is not equal to invulnerability in any respect, because stealthed players can be downed, killed, have condis applied, and take damage like regular players.

4.) [Sic em] and [Utility Goggles] are direct counters to stealth. Other less noticible counterplay include using illusionary wave, PBS, or another knockback skill to cripple Shadow Refuge stealth due to the fact that projectiles track if initiated before the target lock is lost.

5.) Stealth is not always safe to use. Feathers cause an effect that show a thief is in the area, as do blinding powder and SR. Hide in shadows does not, but it has a cast time.

6.) Thieves are all about positioning and using circumstance/terrain and strategy to down players. That is an inherent feature of their class, not a symptom of bad design. They cannot facetank much of anything, less so if they are not Shadow Arts Specced. They have no invulns, no blocks. Everything they have as active defense borders on stealth or evades (That cost them initiative, which they also need to attack).

IMO, I don’t think its overpowered at all. I play both a warrior and a thief, and going from a person that only played warrior into thief gave me a newfound respect for all the junk thieves have to put up with to be more than a nuisance, especially against tanky warriors.

what Azure said…also, going against Guardians…that’s a pain…

it all boils down to how well you play your on class, and how well you know the other 7….If you really know a thief you know that most stealth are really short, most are not enough to get us behind a target for a backstab.

Instead of complaing about everything Thief Related…i propose…learn how to play your own class firstly…OR try playing as a thief… and you will see how weak the thief really is,

Also about our skills not having cool down….yeah try planing every attack all the time…planing ahead…how is that overpower? it’s annoying…It’s easy for every class: use the skills wait for the cool downs to end, use them again… But what do you do when you have a limited number of skills avaible to use in a certain time… sure we have a trait and a signet that gives a small boost….But if 1 vs 1 is easy with the initiative we have, 1 vs 2 is hardcore.

Ohh and not to mention, in PvP a thief in stealth can’t cap a point…but a engi with tourets can keep a point the whole match and you complain about stealth…

Centurion.7296:

There are alot of counters against stealth… l2p…

Couldn’t help but notice you didn’t mention any of them.

Tom Gore.4035:

In WvW, it’s a ridiculously no-risk, high-reward mechanic that has little counterplay save from using stealth traps. The very notion that Anet had to introduce a trap in WvW to combat a single character mechanic tells me it’s broken.

If I would fix stealth, I would prevent stacking the duration and preventing new applications of stealth being applied while already in stealth. This would fix most problems stealth brings in WvW while still keeping it a viable combat mechanic.

Shadow refuge would have to be redone if this change was made, obviously.

stealth traps were not put in place because of theives. it was implemented to counter zergs from chaining mesmer veils.

as a theif who runs s/d, i do like the idea about not being able to stack stealth, even if i dont really have trouble stopping a d/p theif from doing so with steal’s daze.

I have one of every class. I agree that stealth is OP.

The question is, what makes it OP? Being able to disappear and having the enemy guess at your location spamming 1 is a decent advantage in itself but that is not what makes it OP. All the benefits that come with it is what makes it OP. The sheer frequency in which you can enter stealth to gain those benefits is also what makes it OP.

Shadow Refuge. Just run over and spam 1? Yeah, I see this done to me all the time. I LOL at this. I can still move around within the circle, your 1 spam isn’t even dropping my health, and your conditions are falling off.

CnD. Yes this can be blocked but it can also be repeated, instantly. Thanks initiative system. Someone using a skill that blocks. Well, that’s a channel so I have no problem waiting. After all, they can’t hurt me. It’s a good time to regen some hp, let some condi expire, regain initiative, and let the cd on utilities run down. Then I’ll CnD when you finish channeling. Aegis? I’ll just auto you once to remove it then CnD.

Or I can CnD a mob, critter, even a gate or wall

Dagger/Pistol. Who cares about your blocking? I’ll just 5 then 2 and vanish.

Stealing can be traited to stealth me.

Falling far enough to take damage can stealth me.

Dropping below a hp threshold will stealth me.

Healing skill will stealth me.

Utilities stealth me.

Spam-able weapon skills can stealth me.

What benefits do I get? Regen which stacks with a trait that simply gives me hp over time while in stealth for some really good healing. I lose a condi upon entering stealth and will lose one more before I leave (so two condi’s removed each time I stealth), even more if I SR. I get the benefit of not being hit by weapon/utility skills that require a target. While possible to spam 1 with ranged weapons, to do so to hit me in stealth is just impossible. Giving you the uncertainty of knowing where I am.

Of course complaining without offering up a solution is just whining so I’ll offer up a balance.

First off, there needs to be fewer ways to stealth. Shadow Refuge should be an elite replacing Dagger Storm, CnD should be a utility replacing SR, and DS should be toned down (remove the stability and reduce the channel time) and replace CnD.

Hide in Shadows should be changed out for something else. Mark your target, the next time you steal from that target, you transfer up to 5 conditions on you to them and take up to 5 boons from them. Healing yourself for a lump sum in the process. Breaks stun. 40 sec CD but the trait Hidden Thief should be changed to one that reduces the recharge on the healing skill by 20%.

Black Powder’s smoke field should be changed to a dark field.

With the ways to stealth reduced and the ways to spam stealth removed, stealth itself needs to change.

While in stealth, a thief should be impervious to damage. Getting hit physically produces 0 dmg. Thieves are also immune to the application of conditions but are also immune to the application of boons. Any current boons and conditions on the thief before they enter stealth continues to exist on them and effect them while in stealth. Thieves can not be healed while in stealth, so while regen may remain on the thief when they enter stealth, they no longer receive healing from it until they leave stealth. Shadow’s Rejuvenation should be the only way for a thief to gain back some health while in stealth. Thieves continue to gain initiative while in stealth.

The idea here is that being in stealth kinda works like a warrior’s Berserker Stance and Endure Pain rolled into one but with the added drawback of not receiving the benefit of healing from outside sources (shouts, water fields, water attunement [shared], virtue of resolve [shared], etc.), can’t have boons applied to you, and lose the benefit of regen that is currently on you prior to entering stealth. You gain the advantage of giving the enemy uncertainty about your location.

The idea is that stealth acts as a momentary pause instead of a way to reset yourself while your opponent doesn’t get that luxury. It’s use will be more tactical this way as well. Putting it more in line with other profession’s skills like Endure Pain or Blocking which offer a momentary pause and must be used tactfully.

Andred.1087:

Centurion.7296:

There are alot of counters against stealth… l2p…

Couldn’t help but notice you didn’t mention any of them.

Sic em, whatever the engie “sic em” is called, interrupting d/p HS in BP, pbaoe after they stealth, immoblizations, running in the opposite direction so they’re forced to use a shadowstep. block/aegis and dodgeing after you see aegis strip. there are likely more that im forgetting, be creative.

Dont complain about having to slot a skill specifically to counter a theif, we’ve had to slot daggerstorm ever since the RF buff just to have a chance of not dying immediatly to rangers.

heh, i dunno about you but stealth has always bin useless in this game to me, way to short and anyone skilled enough can crush me before i even get close.
love the assassin allot more, no need for stealth but instead it has good survival skills mid battle, they can even heal them selves while attacking.

assassin>thief