Guild Wars 2

Rauderi.8706:

Jerus.4350:

And please no with the defiance thing… I can just see people now.
“dude, why did you throw that CC I had a Deep Freeze on the way”
“I needed agro, I’m playing the tank”
“ugh….”

So it’s not the best idea. I can accept that. =P

I never claimed aggro control was consistent. I’m sure there’s plenty of Elementalist stories about “that kitten boss wouldn’t leave me alone even with 4 other party members beating on it.”

The point is, I can, if I do it right. And if that makes it easier (not necessarily faster) for my team/guild, I’m okay with that option. The perceived lack of options is what some of the arguing is about. (The other is the group exclusion, but that’s a use-LFG matter.)

I hear ya, I used to run that Pillar Guard type build. It was nice when it worked, but the inconsistency is what made me give it up.

I still think there is plenty of power in support. And there are many more supportive trait/utility/weapon setups than what is used in the meta. I simply don’t feel that way about gear because for the most part it’s about personal ease of play not group ease of play, and the bit of help toughness gives to agro for a tank type role just isn’t consistent enough to depend on.

Kite.2510:

There CAN be a game with plenty of attributes without being a “Holy Trinity” game. It’s just that they haven’t given much thought on the idea (if any at all) and in the current game all attributes are irrelevant, with the exception of the pure DPSy ones.

ANet developers gave plenty of thought to the issue, not to mention a lot of work. The stat system does harken back to older trinity games. It might have been better to use the GW stat system, since the difference between GW2 and other MMO’s would be heightened. That said, the balance across stats is fine. There are problems, but those are rooted in the extreme age of the small group PvE content, not in the way stats work.

However, people who view dungeons as “the current game,” and who are also stuck in the old paradigm where gear = build can’t get past their prejudices. That’s either: not giving sufficient thought to the current situation; or analyzing the current game and finding it distasteful. Since you dismiss the developers’ solution without understanding the amount of thought and effort that was obviously put into it, it seems you’re in the former category.

Bread.7516:

nexxe.7081:

Dedlaw.9130:

nexxe.7081:

I find it funny how some of you think that it’s not a problem. Yes, OP can play how he wants, but that’s just avoiding the problem altogether. The zerker playstyle was never intended. It just became the preferred de-facto meta, because it’s more efficient, and it’s borderline exploiting the A.I. mechanics. Anet just gives it a pass because they refuse to update the A.I. in old dungeons.

Stacking on a boss isn’t tactical at all, and it’s outright laughable. Any other MMO, even action-combat ones, don’t even have this. They have A.I. that responds accordingly to mindless gameplay like this.

Living story bosses are even more challenging. Anet has proved this, but they just don’t want to update the old dungeons with better A.I., as was said during that video interview during feature pack 2.

So you’re saying playing as a glass cannon was not intended? In a game where damage takes priority over defence or healing? Where damage avoidance is encouraged over damage reduction?

I should’ve clarified more. It was never intended to be a meta playstyle. All playstyles were intended, but the zerker meta became the de-facto meta by the community. It was never intended by the developers, and it was also never encouraged or restricted by the devs (from what i’ve read anyway).

Damage was never supposed to take priority over anything else. The self-reliance of the individual was/is the intended playstyle. This is why all classes got a healing and dodge skill. This is why the traditional trinity playstyle doesn’t work in GW2.

Damage avoidance is only preferred because of dodge, but that doesn’t mean it was ever intended to replace damage reduction.

This just proves that gw2 needs balancing for all different playstyles, otherwise you have one role, which ironically, gives less choice than a trinity mmorpg.

Just to add a few inputs to counter, for intended playstyle see below or sig.

Ropechef.6192:

relevant,
http://i.imgur.com/jJraP8Y.png

As for dodge, back during development I read it was supposed to not have invul frames but just move you away from the physical hit, they changed it to be easier and probably account for lag. But the concept is the same, completely negate damage by moving away from the blow.

Those quotes in that image are irrelevant. It was never intended to be a meta. People really need to comprehend what i write.

That dev is explaining that all playstyles can be used, and it’s funny how that image doesn’t bracket the next paragraph of his.

“My personal approach to stats and skills are based around utility and an even spread. Min-maxing has it’s potential, but I’ve come to the conclusion that I am no help to my team lying dead on the ground, and team-play is more important than personal output, so as long as I can be up helping my team, I am valuable.”

As he said, he wants to play his way, and not Min-max his output for damage. Again, zerker meta was never intended to be the meta.

Dedlaw.9130:

nexxe.7081:

I should’ve clarified more. It was never intended to be a meta playstyle. All playstyles were intended, but the zerker meta became the de-facto meta by the community. It was never intended by the developers, and it was also never encouraged or restricted by the devs (from what i’ve read anyway).

Damage was never supposed to take priority over anything else. The self-reliance of the individual was/is the intended playstyle. This is why all classes got a healing and dodge skill. This is why the traditional trinity playstyle doesn’t work in GW2.

Damage avoidance is only preferred because of dodge, but that doesn’t mean it was ever intended to replace damage reduction.

This just proves that gw2 needs balancing for all different playstyles, otherwise you have one role, which ironically, gives less choice than a trinity mmorpg.

Devs don’t determine what the meta is, players do. Players figure out which of the viable options is the most effective.

And damage was always suppose to take priority. Yes, all builds should be viable, but all builds have one thing in common – damage. All classes were made into DPS with different types of tanking and healing spread out over different builds. It’s why you can’t constantly heal or defend – at some point you have to stop and do damage.

So for the players looking to optimize their gameplay, it was just a matter of seeing what does the most damage. If you nerf zerker then something else will just take it’s place. As long as there are people who min/max, there will be a meta and some damage dealing build will be it. Nothing ANet does, no amount of balancing/nerfing/encouraging/restricting, will ever change that.

And that’s where we disagree. Anet has the power to change it. There has been countless suggestions from more knowledgeable community members, but many have moved on now since the devs never balanced all playstyles against the zerker meta.

The revamped Tequatl , Triple Wurm, and the new living story bosses prove that zerker isn’t needed, because Anet changed mechanics for the A.I. So i really don’t see how you can say they can’t do it, when they obviously have.

Kuang Eleven.9781:

My problem with zerker stats are that zerk character can still stay in the thick of combat throughout an entire fight. If you’re specs for glass cannon, that’s fine, you can do more damage, but you should need to be much more mindful of your health and need to get out of to recuperate and heal up. I would like to see dungeon fights go something like this:

1. Fight starts, everyone stacks, blows their neat DPS skills, zerker is doing much more damage than the other builds, then everyone realizes that the boss is not dead yet
2. Zerker builds are at mid to low health, they disengage, heal up, maybe plink from range until they heal or get mitigation cooldowns up again. Balanced and defensive statted players are doing fine, they keep attacking
3. Boss winds up for a big series of attacks/frenzies for a time/etc. Balanced builds realize their outclassed and disengages, zerker stays the hell away, but defensive players just keep on trucking.

As a nice side effect, this would heavily reduce the outsized importance on stacking. How to implement this is a different question, a basic method would just be un avoidable damage, but there are better ways.

Do you even play any zerker builds? I solo a lot in zerker on my guardian. Usually have 15k HP. I don’t die that often strictly due to that I play aggressively and tactically.

I do as much damage as a guardian can do, sure, but in dungeons? It’s all about stamina management. I survive off 100% stamina regen on crit to stay mobile and knowing the fights, I.e when to move and where to move to.

On my power necro with his zerker gear, he has way more base HP vs guardian having way better trait able stamina regen, so it’s a different ballgame. My necro has to eat some things that my guardian can just ninja away from, and that means the necro s just plain dead more often.

I don’t bring necro into dungeons for both that and the fact that they just have so much nothing to offer a team apart from the same straight dps everyone can do anyway.

Your ideas would basically require at least a soft Trinity making tanky stats significantly more powerful that they currently are, as even someone in full Soldier isn’t going to want to just eat damage on dungeon bosses. They’ll be dead a few seconds later than a zerker that tries to do the same, not just trucking along.

Zerker isn’t the problem. Everything else being kinda pointless when it’s all about DPs and mobility is, if anything is at all.

Yet, I still find excellent, if occasional, use for my clerics, soldiers, Valkyrie and rampagers sets. It’s all circumstance, builds and what you do with them.

But zerker s my default, especially on guardian. I find it more enjoyable to test myself rolling around doing lots of everything in it.

naiasonod.9265:

Kuang Eleven.9781:

My problem with zerker stats are that zerk character can still stay in the thick of combat throughout an entire fight. If you’re specs for glass cannon, that’s fine, you can do more damage, but you should need to be much more mindful of your health and need to get out of to recuperate and heal up. I would like to see dungeon fights go something like this:

1. Fight starts, everyone stacks, blows their neat DPS skills, zerker is doing much more damage than the other builds, then everyone realizes that the boss is not dead yet
2. Zerker builds are at mid to low health, they disengage, heal up, maybe plink from range until they heal or get mitigation cooldowns up again. Balanced and defensive statted players are doing fine, they keep attacking
3. Boss winds up for a big series of attacks/frenzies for a time/etc. Balanced builds realize their outclassed and disengages, zerker stays the hell away, but defensive players just keep on trucking.

As a nice side effect, this would heavily reduce the outsized importance on stacking. How to implement this is a different question, a basic method would just be un avoidable damage, but there are better ways.

Do you even play any zerker builds? I solo a lot in zerker on my guardian. Usually have 15k HP. I don’t die that often strictly due to that I play aggressively and tactically.

I do as much damage as a guardian can do, sure, but in dungeons? It’s all about stamina management. I survive off 100% stamina regen on crit to stay mobile and knowing the fights, I.e when to move and where to move to.

On my power necro with his zerker gear, he has way more base HP vs guardian having way better trait able stamina regen, so it’s a different ballgame. My necro has to eat some things that my guardian can just ninja away from, and that means the necro s just plain dead more often.

I don’t bring necro into dungeons for both that and the fact that they just have so much nothing to offer a team apart from the same straight dps everyone can do anyway.

Your ideas would basically require at least a soft Trinity making tanky stats significantly more powerful that they currently are, as even someone in full Soldier isn’t going to want to just eat damage on dungeon bosses. They’ll be dead a few seconds later than a zerker that tries to do the same, not just trucking along.

Zerker isn’t the problem. Everything else being kinda pointless when it’s all about DPs and mobility is, if anything is at all.

Yet, I still find excellent, if occasional, use for my clerics, soldiers, Valkyrie and rampagers sets. It’s all circumstance, builds and what you do with them.

But zerker s my default, especially on guardian. I find it more enjoyable to test myself rolling around doing lots of everything in it.

I’m not proposing to do away with Zerker at all, more to bring up other sets to be useful in a different way. Notably, all of the builds I mentioned are still DPS builds, just using different ways to deal damage, with Zerker doing heavy burst damage, but needing to disengage to recuperate, while tankier classes do less damage in a single burst, but are doing damage more often.

It certainly wouldn’t require a trinity, there would be no need to have tankier classes, just that tankier classes would be able to do comparable damage in fights compared to zerker geared characters.

Part of the issue that makes tankier gear far less useful is that active mitigation is way overpowered. If any character can actively mitigate all damage, then zerker is no longer a “glass cannon” gear type, it has no downside; and being harder to use isn’t a downside worth mentioning.

As a side point, I would argue that even full knights is middle of the road between DPS and Tankiness; something like Cleric’s, Sentinel’s Magi’s, etc. should be buffed to the level of being able to absorb more than they do now, wither by healing through it with healing power or just weathering through it with Toughness/Vitality.

There has been progress to better fights though, the new LS instance bosses are much more interesting to fight and allow for a much more balanced distribution of stats while still completing quickly. Similarly, all of the Fractal boss fractals are really fun fights, although the damage scaling at high levels gets restrictive again. Some of these are a little too gimmicky, to the point where personal stats stop mattering at all, but all in all, more interesting.

Harper.4173:

Because challenge should be dictated by the content of the encounter, not the gear you are wearing. That is the mindset of gear in a trinity game, which GW2 is not.

Gear choice is another tool that is available to the playerbase to be used to challenge the content, and having only a narrow path of improvement is shallow, when the game could do so much more to expand on the game’s base mechanics.

Having one set be “do-or-die” when played well and another just be afk-tanking is not good or equivelant design. The enemy should have tools to challenge you to be your very best no matter what armour you are wearing, and your armour should provide the tools to handily defeat the enemy in a variety of fashions depending on the tools you use.

Expand the meaning of skilled play beyond the shallow concept that going glass is the most rewarding. Add in mechanics that will allow multiple paths to threatening the enemy in a viable manner, while equating the risk between strategies.

What I am looking for is a game that can equate risk not with the gear that you are wearing, but rather with the way you yourself are playing the game. Everything is set up wonderfully to emphasize the risk/reward relationship when it comes to playing a glass setup, but that does not work when you are wearing alternate forms of gear. If I have the fortitude to take a hit, why not add in a block or parry mechanism equivelant to dodge which allows me to throw that toughness in my enemy’s face and open them for further punishment? Attach to that mechanic the risk of exposing yourself with a misstimed block with the consequence of receiving massive amounts of damage, and possibly a malus to healing received, stamina regeneration, etc. Something in that general direction. Or add in new utilities to interact with one’s defensive stats to similar effect or otherwise.

I am not familiar with the implementation in GW1, but I would rather have a balance issue that can be addressed and modified compared to a load of nothing that leaves no room for alternative growth. The use of active abilities and timing was something I thought the game promoted.

Conditions are also of much more value in WvW and sPvP, and I would hardly call their PvE implementation balanced.

Its fine that they have a use in sPvP and WvW, but so do offensive sets. I know roamers can enjoy some success in more offensive focused gear and trait setups, adding in some passive defense to give breathing room in an environment where you are being attacked by an unpredictable enemy with actual intelligence. sPvP I am most familiar with the dps meditation build for guardians, and there is room for direct damage and condition builds in that area of the game as well. Bunker builds are the closest thing to a point where staying alive in and of itself is of the greatest value, and they are more than point defenders, they are roaming support in a battle where attrition is an actual factor. But if we had players good enough to avoid damage and manage with their heal ability even in this kind of environment, they would have no need for this passive defense, because as it is currently implemented, it has no intrinsic value over your own inherent defenses.

There is nothing inherent in any class that could completely replace the value of your offensive stats, as they act as a permanent, constant increase to the modifiers of your damage abilities, especially not after the nerf to might. The mitigation tools inherent to classes can more than compensate for passive defenses when they are played well, so to add some depth to the game, why not actually add some value to these stats in their own right that would reward active and skillfull play?

Nobody is asking for anything to be taken away from the game, just added on top of the already existing system to expand the possible mechanics. No punishing certain armour types, no more cheats like creating enemies immune to criticals, no useless nerfs to might, just some real honest to goodness depth to expand the scope of what skillfull play is.

Kite.2510:

tigirius.9014:

Make bosses have a building crit damage resistance buff. Think about it why should CC suffer CC doesn’t kill bosses and Condi damage already has a limitation because it’s built poorly (max stacking), so fix the crit Zerker mentality by making bosses require coordination by giving them a significant buff against crit burst damage skills then parties would be required to have multiple build types and the Zerker build parties would be dead.

I’m with you, (in the Zerker hating Wagon at least) but the content of the game must be built around non-dps builds, and simple solutions like this will take the fun out of it.

I’ve made multiple suggestions for this in the past, going from scaling skills with less popular attributes, to introducing new attributes, to designing dungeons with specific builds in mind.
In the end I’ve understood 3 things.

1. The community here is very toxic. Most players who hate the current “holly Zerker” system have already left the game.
2. There is no easy or fast solution to something so game-changing. The upcoming expansion will be the best opportunity, and I’m prepared to quit my self if it’s not addressed then.
3. Keep beating that Horse until there is nothing left! The fact that so many people keep beating “the crater where the dead horse used to be” means that there’s truly some thing wrong with this game, and then perhaps they’ll take note!

Thanks for your sensible post it was nice to see someone else who’s experienced this. Got almost 20 years of mmo experience under my belt in which I’ve spent hours looking at the spreadsheets for the numbers under the hood, got lots of hours before that back when dice table tops were the thing, it’s terrible when a game isn’t designed properly. Apparently it’s the new thing now to put out something that’s imbalanced, or balanced only for PVP, with as little cerebral content as you can muster and then expect no one to notice.

Jerus.4350:

Rauderi.8706:

Jerus.4350:

And please no with the defiance thing… I can just see people now.
“dude, why did you throw that CC I had a Deep Freeze on the way”
“I needed agro, I’m playing the tank”
“ugh….”

So it’s not the best idea. I can accept that. =P

I never claimed aggro control was consistent. I’m sure there’s plenty of Elementalist stories about “that kitten boss wouldn’t leave me alone even with 4 other party members beating on it.”

The point is, I can, if I do it right. And if that makes it easier (not necessarily faster) for my team/guild, I’m okay with that option. The perceived lack of options is what some of the arguing is about. (The other is the group exclusion, but that’s a use-LFG matter.)

I hear ya, I used to run that Pillar Guard type build. It was nice when it worked, but the inconsistency is what made me give it up.

I still think there is plenty of power in support. And there are many more supportive trait/utility/weapon setups than what is used in the meta. I simply don’t feel that way about gear because for the most part it’s about personal ease of play not group ease of play, and the bit of help toughness gives to agro for a tank type role just isn’t consistent enough to depend on.

Actually several classes don’t really have much in the way of support for their party and it doesn’t help support much that regen doesn’t scale properly in PVE on many classes that are regen heavy. That’s another issue entirely however.

nexxe.7081:

And that’s where we disagree. Anet has the power to change it. There has been countless suggestions from more knowledgeable community members, but many have moved on now since the devs never balanced all playstyles against the zerker meta.

And here’s what will happen if / when they change the zerker meta;

The exact same thing happening now, except with the new meta.

If anyone expects that there will be absolute perfect balance in an MMO, I suggest you get a new hobby while you wait, cause its gonna be awhile.

tigirius.9014:

Jerus.4350:

Rauderi.8706:

Jerus.4350:

And please no with the defiance thing… I can just see people now.
“dude, why did you throw that CC I had a Deep Freeze on the way”
“I needed agro, I’m playing the tank”
“ugh….”

So it’s not the best idea. I can accept that. =P

I never claimed aggro control was consistent. I’m sure there’s plenty of Elementalist stories about “that kitten boss wouldn’t leave me alone even with 4 other party members beating on it.”

The point is, I can, if I do it right. And if that makes it easier (not necessarily faster) for my team/guild, I’m okay with that option. The perceived lack of options is what some of the arguing is about. (The other is the group exclusion, but that’s a use-LFG matter.)

I hear ya, I used to run that Pillar Guard type build. It was nice when it worked, but the inconsistency is what made me give it up.

I still think there is plenty of power in support. And there are many more supportive trait/utility/weapon setups than what is used in the meta. I simply don’t feel that way about gear because for the most part it’s about personal ease of play not group ease of play, and the bit of help toughness gives to agro for a tank type role just isn’t consistent enough to depend on.

Actually several classes don’t really have much in the way of support for their party and it doesn’t help support much that regen doesn’t scale properly in PVE on many classes that are regen heavy. That’s another issue entirely however.

Healing simply was never meant to be an element that played a large role, at least in PVE. They didn’t want that specifically. So yeah it’s a minor effect, to help recover from mistakes for the most part or counter conditions if you lack the cleansing.

Yes, not every profession has support in their meta builds, for example warrior I simply can’t think of. Ranger other than the water field, drawing a blank. Ele/Mesmer/Engi/Thief/Guard all have support stuff. Thief/guard/engi/ele on solid blinds, all 4 on projectile defense. Condi cleanse can come from most as well. There’s plenty of ways to play support, you just have to do it.

nexxe.7081:

Those quotes in that image are irrelevant. It was never intended to be a meta. People really need to comprehend what i write.

That dev is explaining that all playstyles can be used, and it’s funny how that image doesn’t bracket the next paragraph of his.

“My personal approach to stats and skills are based around utility and an even spread. Min-maxing has it’s potential, but I’ve come to the conclusion that I am no help to my team lying dead on the ground, and team-play is more important than personal output, so as long as I can be up helping my team, I am valuable.”

As he said, he wants to play his way, and not Min-max his output for damage. Again, zerker meta was never intended to be the meta.[/quote]

1)Repeating “it was never intended to be the meta” does not make the statement true. You have no idea what was or was not intended in the game’s development.
You’re not a dev, nor part of the dev team so honestly – you have no means of knowing what was and was not intended in the game.

2)What the dev said in the picture is true. And it was true at launch. Zerker wasn’t meta then because people didn’t know the game inside out.
2 years later people know the game by heart and zerker becomes the meta since people have adapted enough to the content to be able to be highly skilled at completing it.

3)All play styles can be used – and are used – the issue is player mentality and honestly it’s nobody’s problem but their own if some players can’t find people with a similar mindset and similar goals to play with.

I’ve yet to hear of a gear set that is unable to complete dungeons in GW2.

As he said, he wants to play his way, and not Min-max his output for damage. Again, zerker meta was never intended to be the meta.

And he can play his way just like anyone can play their way – just don’t expect to be taken along with parties that play their way.
And by their way I mean for maximum effectiveness and fast rewards.

Nobody is stopping you from playing the game the way you enjoy it.
Your way of playing the game stops people like me enjoying it. So we don’t play with you. We play by ourselves and among ourselves.

If you want to play with a certain group you adhere to that group’s rules and structures.

Regarding what the dev said – as long as you’re alive alive you’re valuable – that’s true – but you’re not as valuable as someone who could be alive and contributing more.
So parties will take the guy that’s more valuable because you – because of skill or choice aren’t contributing as much as you could be – and when you want things done fast everyone has to bring 100%.

I’m sure this has all been said 20 times already in this thread, but juuuust in case someone from anet actually reads all this crap I wanted to chime in and let them know that this isn’t a “problem” that’s percieved by the majority of the player base.

now, about the thread:

1) there is no problem

2) regardless of how the game gets balanced, until they introduce a trinity (which they won’t, they have expressively stated that they want players to be able to be self-reliant), no matter if they make condition power, crit power, healing the mobs to death whatever whatever OP, there will always be ONE type of damage, ONE type of gear that is at least slightly better than the others. There will always be ONE playstyle people will refer to as the “meta”.

3) if OP thinks full zerk group needs no coordination and skill, and has no support in it, he needs to, pardon my french, l2p.

Croc.5129:

stuff

Because challenge should be dictated by the content of the encounter, not the gear you are wearing. That is the mindset of gear in a trinity game, which GW2 is not.

Actually this is because it’s effective. If content were the source of challenge then some people could qualify and some people couldn’t.

Those who weren’t skilled enough to do the content would be left outside looking in and unable to participate.

By tying in gear stats to how hard content becomes you’re technically allowing people to set their own difficulty level with the only downside being completion time.
In a sense you’re letting the player adapt how hard he wants the content to be vs how fast he gets it done.

That means everybody can now enjoy the content and complete it and feel like they’re doing good.

That’s a pretty smart move on the developer’s side. Instead of people being left out unable to even touch certain areas of the game – they are able to dynamically scale the difficulty of said content using their own gear.

Having one set be “do-or-die” when played well and another just be afk-tanking is not good or equivelant design. The enemy should have tools to challenge you to be your very best no matter what armour you are wearing, and your armour should provide the tools to handily defeat the enemy in a variety of fashions depending on the tools you use.

I don’t really think most people want to be challenged. Certainly a few want it most of the time and certainly most want it a few times but honestly – I think the majority prefers to have their empowerment fantasy fulfilled without having to sweat too hard.

If the devs wanted to challenge people they could have programmed AI that behaved like players ( or modeled after players) in sPVP.

How much enjoyment do you think GW2’s casual player ( the vast majority) would derive from being stomped by AI all over the place?

Expand the meaning of skilled play beyond the shallow concept that going glass is the most rewarding. Add in mechanics that will allow multiple paths to threatening the enemy in a viable manner, while equating the risk between strategies.

Even if this was possible you do realize that a new meta would be established and everyone would run that for loot and profits right?
You can’t make different solutions to the same content have the exact amount of risk and difficulty associated while still keeping them different.

One will inevitably be shorter, faster or easier and people will do that.

f I have the fortitude to take a hit, why not add in a block or parry mechanism equivelant to dodge which allows me to throw that toughness in my enemy’s face and open them for further punishment? Attach to that mechanic the risk of exposing yourself with a misstimed block with the consequence of receiving massive amounts of damage, and possibly a malus to healing received, stamina regeneration, etc. Something in that general direction. Or add in new utilities to interact with one’s defensive stats to similar effect or otherwise.

The combat in this game is already very different from other MMOs and sometimes difficult to master for casual players. Adding in this much is certainly doable but it would probably overwhelm the majority of players.

Also what you’ve just described is a dodge that also deals damage. So tell me – why wouldn’t it be easier to run as full tank if the clear times were similar but the risk was smaller ( due to the nature of the gear).

As a final note – there’s another thing I would like to add.

Zerker is high risk. One mistake and the party can wipe.
A lot of players say zerker was not intended as a meta – but look at the design.

In a dungeon ( or any instanced content) you can wipe as many times as you want without any downside to it.
You can go into instanced content at any time without having to do anything beforehand.

Now consider that dungeons took an entry fee and wiping got you kicked – full glass would still be viable for the best of the best but less optimized and less skilled parties would be wearing tankier, safer gear.

Now I’m not saying this is what I want for the game but this was a thing in GW1 – elite areas took a fee to enter and would kick you if you wiped. Considering GW1 was made by the same developer can you really say they didn’t know how to make full glkitten appealing?

The bottom line is the game is made to be a moderate challenge for the average player. Because of that good players and above average players will have it easy.
That’s not something you can change.

You can’t make content that challenges the average player a lot and somehow challenges a very good player a lot too.

Berserker isn’t the problem, its just good at what it does.
The problem is that everything else is bad at what it does.

Defense (vitality/toughness) isn’t needed because active damage mitigation is better and a proper boss will kill you in under 2 seconds regardless of your HP.

Condition damage doesn’t work because of the bleeding caps.

Healing power is for the most part so weak it has no use at all.
Base values for healing are too high and healing power scaling too low, it just doesn’t do anything that’s useful for general gameplay and is a niche stat at most.

Once these things get fixed, Berserker will be one among many rather than the holy grail of performance focused pve.

Arena net need install zerker damage limit for each class and dungeon boss. The easy suggestion is limit zerker damage for each class and dungeon; boss. Example; warrior zerk damage limit= 3.5k, thief=1.7k, ranger=1.5k, guardian=3.3k, elementalist=1.5k, engineer=1.5k, mesmer=1.7k . For dungeon boss= 2k damage limit. No Limit= Always damage Op/high problem. If was zerker damage limit; there would no problem with Zerker Op/high damage problem.

nexxe.7081:

Those quotes in that image are irrelevant. It was never intended to be a meta. People really need to comprehend what i write.

That dev is explaining that all playstyles can be used, and it’s funny how that image doesn’t bracket the next paragraph of his.

“My personal approach to stats and skills are based around utility and an even spread. Min-maxing has it’s potential, but I’ve come to the conclusion that I am no help to my team lying dead on the ground, and team-play is more important than personal output, so as long as I can be up helping my team, I am valuable.”

As he said, he wants to play his way, and not Min-max his output for damage. Again, zerker meta was never intended to be the meta.

“Truth of the matter is that even glass cannon builds can be possible in the hands of a skilled player…”

Possible – meaning he most likely had accounted for it. All gear sets are viable, just not optimal. If all gear sets are optimal that is an idealist view and not a realistic one, there is always a meta.

FYI people read and comprehend what you write, it’s you who keeps interpreting dev’s “intentions” too much to your camp. As for the paragraph below the quote “My personal approach…” those 3 words alone, try to comprehend its significance to the statement.

So no, his quote is not irrelevant, you just choose to ignore it. Maybe you want to call up your best friend dev in anet since apparently you have a direct line and know exactly what they intended and accounted for.

Harper.4173:

The combat in this game is already very different from other MMOs and sometimes difficult to master for casual players. Adding in this much is certainly doable but it would probably overwhelm the majority of players.

Also what you’ve just described is a dodge that also deals damage. So tell me – why wouldn’t it be easier to run as full tank if the clear times were similar but the risk was smaller ( due to the nature of the gear).

It would not negate full damage like a regular block, though a partial damage reduction would be likely, as well as a malus application to the enemy that would expose them to further damage by the player and their allies. Bonus malus for special attacks. With whatever health the player has left, they either decide to stay in the enemy’s attack range and take advantage of the malus, or fall back to recuperate, meaning they needed to watch their health more.

Also, missing the timing on the riposte means taking bonus damage from the enemy and a malus of their own, as they leave themselves wide open. I will not say that this current implementation is perfect yet, it was an idea thought of off the top of my head to illustrate ways in which different gameplay could be encouraged. For instance, how it would work with the likes of aegis or other blocking abilities would need further consideration for balance purposes.

As for the rest, I would still prefer narrowing the gap in effectiveness to something negligible enough that only the really hardcore would take true notice, as is their right to do so. Even if one meta was even more effective for a certain encounter compared to another, it would at least begin to bring in more variety that would require some more involved forethought. Anet are not gods, I’m not asking for complete perfection, but at least for the tools for different avenues to be available so that you have to put more thought into your choices.

As for the argument for the average player, that should still be something that is determined from their playstyle rather than what gear they decide to put on for a challenge. An offensive player poking in and out from the enemy because they have no faith in their ability to dodge attacks on the fly, a tanky player unwilling to open up and expose a weakness in their defense to catch the enemy unawares, meaning they do pinprick damage forever because they do not wish to take a risk, both playing it safe in their own style while they learn the content.

The game’s philosophy may not mesh with difficulty levels in dungeons, with wanting to keep content gating to a minimum, but it does not mean that gear has to be the implementation of difficulty control. As there would be different avenues of success and different paths through which to master the game, even if a meta were to arise, it would go some ways to narrowing the discrepency in effectiveness if alternative options actually had tools implemented in the game to be a factor.

I don’t want to do anything to berserker gear. The other tools at our disposal just need avenues of application. This does not have to affect the enjoyment of casual players, though I still would not say no to some more challenging content, just a deepening of the possibilities at hand, leaving the surface level understanding of the game more or less intact for those who are comfortable where they are.

I hate the implication that there is a problem with Berserker gear (or Assassin’s gear, which is better for some classes DPS). I also hate the concept that people aren’t good if they don’t wear it, because it’s not a magical band-aid that will suddenly make you a decent player.

You want the truth of the matter? You could run any dungeon in this game, if you knew when to dodge, wearing nothing but white weapons. Stats always have been, and always will be, a choice. Some people prefer to have a higher damage output, and some prefer to have room for error. It’s the person who tells other people how to play (whether they should, or should not, wear any stat set) that has the problem, not the other way around.

maddoctor.2738:

Why “fix” something that isn’t broken?

Because that’s only thing that works besides condition builds and we have so many different armor styles.

+ Here is my suggestion, Combinations between classes should be rewarded with 300% bonus. As long combinations are only bonus… no one will care. I suggest that making combination of two * three skills would be rewarded with good synergy which would deal tons of damage, or defend you from it.

Firelysm.4967:

maddoctor.2738:

Why “fix” something that isn’t broken?

Because that’s only thing that works besides condition builds and we have so many different armor styles.

+ Here is my suggestion, Combinations between classes should be rewarded with 300% bonus. As long combinations are only bonus… no one will care. I suggest that making combination of two * three skills would be rewarded with good synergy which would deal tons of damage, or defend you from it.

Lots of different armor styles work, almost all of them in fact, what do you mean it’s the only thing that “works”?

I didn’t understand what you mean by combinations, like blast finishers?

Croc.5129:

As for the rest, I would still prefer narrowing the gap in effectiveness to something negligible enough that only the really hardcore would take true notice, as is their right to do so. Even if one meta was even more effective for a certain encounter compared to another, it would at least begin to bring in more variety that would require some more involved forethought. Anet are not gods, I’m not asking for complete perfection, but at least for the tools for different avenues to be available so that you have to put more thought into your choices.

You do realize that even if one meta is even 30 seconds faster the nature of the community will enforce it.

You seem to think you can have variety but if MMOs have taught me anything is that people will use what’s best and dump the rest. I honestly don’t think that narrowing the gap of effectiveness would help in any way.

You’d only punish skilled play by minimizing their effort and ability with the fact that you’re giving less optimized groups and less skilled players almost the same results with far less effort put in.

In a sense you’d be making the content even more faceroll than it is now.

As for the argument for the average player, that should still be something that is determined from their playstyle rather than what gear they decide to put on for a challenge. An offensive player poking in and out from the enemy because they have no faith in their ability to dodge attacks on the fly, a tanky player unwilling to open up and expose a weakness in their defense to catch the enemy unawares, meaning they do pinprick damage forever because they do not wish to take a risk, both playing it safe in their own style while they learn the content.

So how is this not a thing in the game now? You can go tanky and do little damage but not need to dodge as often.
You can go zerker and if you can’t dodge properly you can range or use invuls to keep yourself in the fight for a bit then run around.

I understand that you say “gear should not be used as difficulty control” but it’s obvious from the game the designers had another vision – and I for one think it works pretty well.

You’re describing idealistic visions that have no real basis in the game or in the game’s design. You’re basically saying “whoa it’d be cool if we had this and that” without considering what it would do to the game, how it would affect players or how much development time it would take.

TL:DR

The game uses gear in order for players to adapt content difficulty to their own skill level.
Players want the gear that’s more tanky (safer) to be more effective at clearing content. In a sense you want the game to be made easier so you can clear as fast as a zerker team but with half or a quarter of the risk.

This is both selfish and a bad idea.

If you want to play other gear combos nobody is stopping you. Just don’t expect the people who play for rewards and effectiveness to have you along.

Firelysm.4967:

maddoctor.2738:

Why “fix” something that isn’t broken?

Because that’s only thing that works besides condition builds and we have so many different armor styles.

+ Here is my suggestion, Combinations between classes should be rewarded with 300% bonus. As long combinations are only bonus… no one will care. I suggest that making combination of two * three skills would be rewarded with good synergy which would deal tons of damage, or defend you from it.

Have you been unable to complete dungeons in gear that’s not zerker or condi?

Please tell me how other gear does not work in this game.

Harper.4173:

Croc.5129:

As for the rest, I would still prefer narrowing the gap in effectiveness to something negligible enough that only the really hardcore would take true notice, as is their right to do so. Even if one meta was even more effective for a certain encounter compared to another, it would at least begin to bring in more variety that would require some more involved forethought. Anet are not gods, I’m not asking for complete perfection, but at least for the tools for different avenues to be available so that you have to put more thought into your choices.

You do realize that even if one meta is even 30 seconds faster the nature of the community will enforce it.

You seem to think you can have variety but if MMOs have taught me anything is that people will use what’s best and dump the rest. I honestly don’t think that narrowing the gap of effectiveness would help in any way.

You’d only punish skilled play by minimizing their effort and ability with the fact that you’re giving less optimized groups and less skilled players almost the same results with far less effort put in.

In a sense you’d be making the content even more faceroll than it is now.

As for the argument for the average player, that should still be something that is determined from their playstyle rather than what gear they decide to put on for a challenge. An offensive player poking in and out from the enemy because they have no faith in their ability to dodge attacks on the fly, a tanky player unwilling to open up and expose a weakness in their defense to catch the enemy unawares, meaning they do pinprick damage forever because they do not wish to take a risk, both playing it safe in their own style while they learn the content.

So how is this not a thing in the game now? You can go tanky and do little damage but not need to dodge as often.
You can go zerker and if you can’t dodge properly you can range or use invuls to keep yourself in the fight for a bit then run around.

I understand that you say “gear should not be used as difficulty control” but it’s obvious from the game the designers had another vision – and I for one think it works pretty well.

You’re describing idealistic visions that have no real basis in the game or in the game’s design. You’re basically saying “whoa it’d be cool if we had this and that” without considering what it would do to the game, how it would affect players or how much development time it would take.

TL:DR

The game uses gear in order for players to adapt content difficulty to their own skill level.
Players want the gear that’s more tanky (safer) to be more effective at clearing content. In a sense you want the game to be made easier so you can clear as fast as a zerker team but with half or a quarter of the risk.

This is both selfish and a bad idea.

If you want to play other gear combos nobody is stopping you. Just don’t expect the people who play for rewards and effectiveness to have you along.

Maybe if we show up to a dungeon and get a cutscene in which the bosses plead with us for their lives, but we show now mercy and smite them with one blow.

Then everything would be equal.

CUTSCENE AVENGERS 2015! VOTE YES TO CUTSCENE-KILLAH TECHNOLOGY!

\o/

I can’t think of any other way to make all gear sets equally ideal save by removing their relevance entirely. Same for personal and collaborative skill and capability.

Show up, watch a nice cutscene in which we blow everything up and slow-walk away like rockstars, get a login rewar—er.

Well, you know what I mean.

The difference is if you are tanky and you remain in melee range, you have no tools that you can actually implement to further punish the enemy. You have the option to range on the enemy if you’re no good in glass gear, and utilise your dodges properly on the enemy when you knwo the encounter better. The enemy would also need to utilise further armour piercing abilities to compensate for tankier enemies they encounter. An increase in enemy variety in the PvE environment would be able to support this.

Nothing in what I suggested means the game has to get easir, if it were any easier I would probably fall asleep at the keyboard. I want an expansion on what the playerbase and the enemy AI is capable of to facilitate more complex and demanding forms of play than the simple, shallow interactions currently available.

If people were to complain over just 30 seconds of difference, I would not give a flying fig about that. The problem is there is nothing currently implemented that makes this an issue.

We have people touting that gear does not matter when it certainly has an effect on performance even by just having gear that increases the effectiveness of your abilities. But having other gear that’s alright just for taking hits and nothing else is fine? It is boring.

How in the world would expanding the capabilities of the playerbase and the AI take away from the berserker playstyle when berserker players can keep doing what they are doing, and other playstyles can actually have avenues of expression of skill that would mean you have to make an effort towards mastering your chosen path?

Even if you cant get a 1:1 ratio on equality, an effort to at least implement tools for actual divergent playstyles would open up more active differences in approaches to combat, putting more weight on all of the decisions you make with your character.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2#Combat

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is built around three facets: damage, control and support. Damage is simply decreasing the enemy’s health, control is preventing the enemy from doing what it wants, and support consists of working together with allies. Each profession is able to perform any of these roles. While some professions may be better at an aspect than others, no character is a specialist in a particular role. For example, there is no profession which focuses on the healing aspect of support – the best healing abilities available in the game are the compulsory self healing skills.

Do you all get it now? Does it make sense?

This is the game. this is guild wars 2. this is what anet designed. this is what they delivered and this is what we are all playing. If you don’t like it, open steam and find another game with a combat system designed differently.

hybrid.5027:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2#Combat

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is built around three facets: damage, control and support. Damage is simply decreasing the enemy’s health, control is preventing the enemy from doing what it wants, and support consists of working together with allies. Each profession is able to perform any of these roles. While some professions may be better at an aspect than others, no character is a specialist in a particular role. For example, there is no profession which focuses on the healing aspect of support – the best healing abilities available in the game are the compulsory self healing skills.

Do you all get it now? Does it make sense?

This is the game. this is guild wars 2. this is what anet designed. this is what they delivered and this is what we are all playing. If you don’t like it, open steam and find another game with a combat system designed differently.

And their reasoning behind the way they implemented gear?

hybrid.5027:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2#Combat

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is built around three facets: damage, control and support. Damage is simply decreasing the enemy’s health, control is preventing the enemy from doing what it wants, and support consists of working together with allies. Each profession is able to perform any of these roles. While some professions may be better at an aspect than others, no character is a specialist in a particular role. For example, there is no profession which focuses on the healing aspect of support – the best healing abilities available in the game are the compulsory self healing skills.

Do you all get it now? Does it make sense?

This is the game. this is guild wars 2. this is what anet designed. this is what they delivered and this is what we are all playing. If you don’t like it, open steam and find another game with a combat system designed differently.

Can you post the part where they stated that the gear system was intended as a difficulty slider?

Croc.5129:

hybrid.5027:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2#Combat

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is built around three facets: damage, control and support. Damage is simply decreasing the enemy’s health, control is preventing the enemy from doing what it wants, and support consists of working together with allies. Each profession is able to perform any of these roles. While some professions may be better at an aspect than others, no character is a specialist in a particular role. For example, there is no profession which focuses on the healing aspect of support – the best healing abilities available in the game are the compulsory self healing skills.

Do you all get it now? Does it make sense?

This is the game. this is guild wars 2. this is what anet designed. this is what they delivered and this is what we are all playing. If you don’t like it, open steam and find another game with a combat system designed differently.

And their reasoning behind the way they implemented gear?

Gear is a bi-axial measure of how much damage you estimate you will be able to mitigate in a given game mode. In a dungeon where you envision being able to avoid almost all attacks you should want to have gear that sacrifices passive defense for offense. In a WvW zerg where you can’t avoid all the damage a player would be foolish to not wear gear with passive defense. In sPvP if your teamrole is to be a point bunker you’re going to absorb a lot of damage and need tanky/sustain gear. If you’re a far point roamer you’re going to want glassier more dps oriented gear. People who argue that they want their Nomads necromancer to be accepted in dungeon speed runs as equal to a berserker are just as irrational as someone who wants to play a berserker amulet bunker Thief in ranked PvP.

The other axis is what kind of damage you do, direct or condition or a hybrid of the two.

The typical response I get when I point this out is “but but but but anet couldn’t possibly have wanted tanky gear to be nothing but training wheels in PvE!” You’re absolutely right! Anet knew quite shrewdly that for many players they would NEVER progress to the point where they would be able to take off the security blanket in PvE. Thus, they designed the encounters to be such that there are no fights in the game that cannot be completed in any gear type. Thus, they accounted for the fact that some people be forever in need of tanky gear, or prefer it for roleplaying reasons, and they tuned their bosses to be defeatable regardless of gear type. For many players, tanky gear isn’t training wheels and it isn’t a step on the ladder towards glassy gear. For many players tanky gear is the be all end all of their gaming experience, and thankfully the game does not artificially gear gate those players out of any content.

hybrid.5027:

Croc.5129:

hybrid.5027:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2#Combat

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is built around three facets: damage, control and support. Damage is simply decreasing the enemy’s health, control is preventing the enemy from doing what it wants, and support consists of working together with allies. Each profession is able to perform any of these roles. While some professions may be better at an aspect than others, no character is a specialist in a particular role. For example, there is no profession which focuses on the healing aspect of support – the best healing abilities available in the game are the compulsory self healing skills.

Do you all get it now? Does it make sense?

This is the game. this is guild wars 2. this is what anet designed. this is what they delivered and this is what we are all playing. If you don’t like it, open steam and find another game with a combat system designed differently.

And their reasoning behind the way they implemented gear?

Gear is a bi-axial measure of how much damage you estimate you will be able to mitigate in a given game mode. In a dungeon where you envision being able to avoid almost all attacks you should want to have gear that sacrifices passive defense for offense. In a WvW zerg where you can’t avoid all the damage a player would be foolish to not wear gear with passive defense. In sPvP if your teamrole is to be a point bunker you’re going to absorb a lot of damage and need tanky/sustain gear. If you’re a far point roamer you’re going to want glassier more dps oriented gear. People who argue that they want their Nomads necromancer to be accepted in dungeon speed runs as equal to a berserker are just as irrational as someone who wants to play a berserker amulet bunker Thief in ranked PvP.

The other axis is what kind of damage you do, direct or condition or a hybrid of the two.

The typical response I get when I point this out is “but but but but anet couldn’t possibly have wanted tanky gear to be nothing but training wheels in PvE!” You’re absolutely right! Anet knew quite shrewdly that for many players they would NEVER progress to the point where they would be able to take off the security blanket in PvE. Thus, they designed the encounters to be such that there are no fights in the game that cannot be completed in any gear type. Thus, they accounted for the fact that some people be forever in need of tanky gear, or prefer it for roleplaying reasons, and they tuned their bosses to be defeatable regardless of gear type. For many players, tanky gear isn’t training wheels and it isn’t a step on the ladder towards glassy gear. For many players tanky gear is the be all end all of their gaming experience, and thankfully the game does not artificially gear gate those players out of any content.

^ this. This right here should be the end of the thread. This man, or woman of that’s the case, said it plain and simple.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

hybrid.5027:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2#Combat

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is built around three facets: damage, control and support. Damage is simply decreasing the enemy’s health, control is preventing the enemy from doing what it wants, and support consists of working together with allies. Each profession is able to perform any of these roles. While some professions may be better at an aspect than others, no character is a specialist in a particular role. For example, there is no profession which focuses on the healing aspect of support – the best healing abilities available in the game are the compulsory self healing skills.

Do you all get it now? Does it make sense?

This is the game. this is guild wars 2. this is what anet designed. this is what they delivered and this is what we are all playing. If you don’t like it, open steam and find another game with a combat system designed differently.

Can you post the part where they stated that the gear system was intended as a difficulty slider?

http://i.imgur.com/jJraP8Y.png

Was already posted on page one of this thread. Too bad the conversation didn’t end then.

hybrid.5027:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

hybrid.5027:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2#Combat

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is built around three facets: damage, control and support. Damage is simply decreasing the enemy’s health, control is preventing the enemy from doing what it wants, and support consists of working together with allies. Each profession is able to perform any of these roles. While some professions may be better at an aspect than others, no character is a specialist in a particular role. For example, there is no profession which focuses on the healing aspect of support – the best healing abilities available in the game are the compulsory self healing skills.

Do you all get it now? Does it make sense?

This is the game. this is guild wars 2. this is what anet designed. this is what they delivered and this is what we are all playing. If you don’t like it, open steam and find another game with a combat system designed differently.

Can you post the part where they stated that the gear system was intended as a difficulty slider?

http://i.imgur.com/jJraP8Y.png

Was already posted on page one of this thread. Too bad the conversation didn’t end then.

You posted the quote of someone who got laid off for designing unfavorable dungeon content.

It may suit your claim better to get something out of the current employees.

The conversation has always been about what the game could be in comparison to what it currently is. All the quotes in the world will not help when the belief is that the system in place is too shallow to deliver a worthwhile experience.

It also does not help when the argument being made is that it is being kept shallow to be more inclusive of a wider audience.

Seriously? How do you know he was fired for that? How do you know he was fired at all?
Even if what you said is true, how does that invalidate what he said?

Edit: My second question got answered http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Robert_Hrouda

Ropechef.6192:

relevant,

http://i.imgur.com/jJraP8Y.png

I feel like this should be spammed as every other post in every “anti-zerker” (or variation of it) thread posted.

Tree.3916:

Seriously? How do you know he was fired for that? How do you know he was fired at all?

In response to your second question.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Robert_Hrouda

hybrid.5027:

Gear is a bi-axial measure of how much damage you estimate you will be able to mitigate in a given game mode. In a dungeon where you envision being able to avoid almost all attacks you should want to have gear that sacrifices passive defense for offense. In a WvW zerg where you can’t avoid all the damage a player would be foolish to not wear gear with passive defense. In sPvP if your teamrole is to be a point bunker you’re going to absorb a lot of damage and need tanky/sustain gear. If you’re a far point roamer you’re going to want glassier more dps oriented gear. People who argue that they want their Nomads necromancer to be accepted in dungeon speed runs as equal to a berserker are just as irrational as someone who wants to play a berserker amulet bunker Thief in ranked PvP.

The other axis is what kind of damage you do, direct or condition or a hybrid of the two.

The typical response I get when I point this out is “but but but but anet couldn’t possibly have wanted tanky gear to be nothing but training wheels in PvE!” You’re absolutely right! Anet knew quite shrewdly that for many players they would NEVER progress to the point where they would be able to take off the security blanket in PvE. Thus, they designed the encounters to be such that there are no fights in the game that cannot be completed in any gear type. Thus, they accounted for the fact that some people be forever in need of tanky gear, or prefer it for roleplaying reasons, and they tuned their bosses to be defeatable regardless of gear type. For many players, tanky gear isn’t training wheels and it isn’t a step on the ladder towards glassy gear. For many players tanky gear is the be all end all of their gaming experience, and thankfully the game does not artificially gear gate those players out of any content.

If being a bunker was the only part of teamplay in a sPvP match, that would actually be a problem. But it isn’t.

And what is so wrong with opening a higher depth of possible play for other armour types, when those who are comfortable at their current level can still play in the same relaxed way regardless of what others do?

I mean, I would want more difficult play as well, but if that is too divergent from the game’s philosophy, I would settle for some deeper game mechanics to expand the tools at our disposal.

Sorry let me clarify.

He was not happy with how the molten facility content was used and expressed it openly. We were also not happy with the fact that it got taken away.

He ate a bullet indirectly.

We can all agree that Molten Facility should have stayed yes I can personally agree with that, preferred with 3 explorable paths like all dungeons.

EDIT: he was not fired, he was laid off if I remember correctly so he can theoretically come back.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Ropechef.6192:

relevant,

http://i.imgur.com/jJraP8Y.png

I feel like this should be spammed as every other post in every “anti-zerker” (or variation of it) thread posted.

Counter spam says hi.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Robert_Hrouda

I would love to see the dungeon crew re stablished.

They were honest and direct about the gear stats and how full glass cannons worked.

We have seen a failure of ANET to interject in these types of threads since then !
Honestly let me go get my popcorn and large drink and watch another thread of this nature go again each week- it’s entertaining.

TPMN.1483:

I would love to see the dungeon crew re stablished.

They were honest and direct about the gear stats and how full glass cannons worked.

We have seen a failure of ANET to interject in these types of threads since then !
Honestly let me go get my popcorn and large drink and watch another thread of this nature go again each week- it’s entertaining.

I would be happy to see dungeon content that took everything from living story s2 and compacted into an sPvE format.

So who is ready for tomorrow?

#RaidHype!!!!! The new Vine Boss mechanics are fun.

Sorin.4310:

Why do I click “fix zerker” threads…

Because they are great with popcorn?

Just because he was fired for having a big mouth has nothing to do with the validity of the design philosophy. That is quite literally an attempt to discredit the evidence by attacking the person presenting it. Which is a logical fallacy.

The sad part is I have successfully explain how the game works, explained why it functions as it does, and offered proof that the developers intended it to be that way. And yet you continue to try to disagree. That’s very simple.

You have three options…

1. Find another game.

2. Accept that I am factually correct and enjoy the game for what it is.

3. Pretend I’m wrong so you can internalize the fact that you’re wrong and delude yourself. Then make another “anti-zerk meta” thread in a couple of weeks and I can be the hammer to your proverbial nail yet again.

Croc.5129:

The difference is if you are tanky and you remain in melee range, you have no tools that you can actually implement to further punish the enemy. You have the option to range on the enemy if you’re no good in glass gear, and utilise your dodges properly on the enemy when you knwo the encounter better. The enemy would also need to utilise further armour piercing abilities to compensate for tankier enemies they encounter. An increase in enemy variety in the PvE environment would be able to support this.

Yes but the damage you deal as a melee in tanky gear is greater than you would deal as a tanky gear at range.

The guy who is in glass gear at range is dealing significantly less damage than he would be if he was in melee range.

That’s the difference – you’re already doing more damage than you would be at range.

The ability to use your dodges better is the same for everyone – you can simply take glassier gear and do more damage in melee if you learn the encounter. Just like the guy who was in glass at range can now close in and melee – so too can you melee in glassier gear.

Being glassy in melee range is the same as being tanky but with the boss having “armor piercing” isn’kitten Why create over complicated solutions to problems that aren’t really there?

I want an expansion on what the playerbase and the enemy AI is capable of to facilitate more complex and demanding forms of play than the simple, shallow interactions currently available.

I’ve already explained to you why the combat is “shallow” and easy – it is aimed at players for which this “shallow and easy” system is more than a challenge and anything above that would be frustrating and would likely turn them off the game.

How in the world would expanding the capabilities of the playerbase and the AI take away from the berserker playstyle when berserker players can keep doing what they are doing, and other playstyles can actually have avenues of expression of skill that would mean you have to make an effort towards mastering your chosen path?

This has nothing to do with “berserker players” – they’re simply people who care about efficiency.
Once the new methods of beating the content in the fastest way possible are found the berserker players will use that method. Your dream of “variety” and “multiple avenues” is a utopic vision of something that will never come to be.

People will quickly find the fastest and most effective way and do that over and over again. It’s not about “mastering your own chosen path” – MMOs stop being that about a week or two after launch.
It’s about obtaining fast rewards.

You’re talking about “the decisions you make with your character” but the “zerker meta” or whatever speed meta we have is proof that the only decision people care about after a while is “how do i make more gold / earn more loot with this character”

Croc.5129:

If being a bunker was the only part of teamplay in a sPvP match, that would actually be a problem. But it isn’t.

And what is so wrong with opening a higher depth of possible play for other armour types, when those who are comfortable at their current level can still play in the same relaxed way regardless of what others do?

What you’re trying to do is enable a playstyle through gear. That simply isn’t what gear is designed to do. I have explain, at length, what gear does and what it can do.

If you want to see defensive support become more important need new encounters that are significantly more challenging AND you need to buff support traits so that they provide such an advantage that people are willing to sacrifice damage modifiers to get them. Notice I didn’t say anything about gear. Assuming the encounters are designed correctly and require coordinated CC and defensive support, they should and could still be completed by 5 characters in berserker gear. They would also be uncompletable by poor players because you raised the skill/organizational floor above what poor players are capable of. For what it’s worth, I hope raids come in the expansion and I hope they are actual skill gated content.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

hybrid.5027:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

hybrid.5027:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2#Combat

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is built around three facets: damage, control and support. Damage is simply decreasing the enemy’s health, control is preventing the enemy from doing what it wants, and support consists of working together with allies. Each profession is able to perform any of these roles. While some professions may be better at an aspect than others, no character is a specialist in a particular role. For example, there is no profession which focuses on the healing aspect of support – the best healing abilities available in the game are the compulsory self healing skills.

Do you all get it now? Does it make sense?

This is the game. this is guild wars 2. this is what anet designed. this is what they delivered and this is what we are all playing. If you don’t like it, open steam and find another game with a combat system designed differently.

Can you post the part where they stated that the gear system was intended as a difficulty slider?

http://i.imgur.com/jJraP8Y.png

Was already posted on page one of this thread. Too bad the conversation didn’t end then.

You posted the quote of someone who got laid off for designing unfavorable dungeon content.

It may suit your claim better to get something out of the current employees.

It may suit your claim better to realize that he got “laid off” because the entire dungeon team got dissolved.

Also dungeon content was most definitely not “unfavorable” at launch. It’s unfavorable now – 2 and a half years later because : the content has remained the same and has become stale; bugs have not been fixed for a long time and people are tired of them.

The fact that dungeon content isn’t well regarded now doesn’t mean that the devs were laid off because of it.

Croc.5129:

The conversation has always been about what the game could be in comparison to what it currently is. All the quotes in the world will not help when the belief is that the system in place is too shallow to deliver a worthwhile experience.

It also does not help when the argument being made is that it is being kept shallow to be more inclusive of a wider audience.

It might not help but it’s the truth.

The “shallow” you mention is a subjective experience. What’s shallow for you is more than most people can handle. Or just about right for them.

This game is made for a reason – profit. A company built it and makes content for it in order to generate revenue for themselves, for their publisher and ultimately their shareholders.

A wider audience means more money. A smaller audience means less.

It is pretty clear that all of their decisions are aimed at including as many people as possible in as much content as possible and trying to keep them connected to the game as often and as much as possible at a time.

hybrid.5027:

Just because he was fired for having a big mouth has nothing to do with the validity of the design philosophy. That is quite literally an attempt to discredit the evidence by attacking the person presenting it. Which is a logical fallacy.

The sad part is I have successfully explain how the game works, explained why it functions as it does, and offered proof that the developers intended it to be that way. And yet you continue to try to disagree. That’s very simple.

You have three options…

1. Find another game.

2. Accept that I am factually correct and enjoy the game for what it is.

3. Pretend I’m wrong so you can internalize the fact that you’re wrong and delude yourself. Then make another “anti-zerk meta” thread in a couple of weeks and I can be the hammer to your proverbial nail yet again.

The reason as to why I stated it is largely due to the fact that the current profession balance team has stated they wanted to move each profession into a more defined role over twitch and have already expressed their concerns in regards to the dominance of power as we have discussed in a previous thread.

Examples:

Engineers being the king of control
Eles being the king of versatility (hence their celes nature)
Warriors being the king of CQC attrition (hence their upfront nature on point)

The introduction of high armor archetypes in the array of foes, the introduction of healer archetypes in the array of foes, providing fundamental use for things like cripple to counter teragriff charges. The amount of high frequency attacks that occur when teragriffs use their burrow needles all at the same time.

As one of you have stated to us in the meta definitions thread

“stop living in the 80s”

Regardless we will see what the AI consultant and Anet has to say tomorrow. I’m sure we can discuss more afterwards.

Harper.4173:

Croc.5129:

The conversation has always been about what the game could be in comparison to what it currently is. All the quotes in the world will not help when the belief is that the system in place is too shallow to deliver a worthwhile experience.

It also does not help when the argument being made is that it is being kept shallow to be more inclusive of a wider audience.

It might not help but it’s the truth.

The “shallow” you mention is a subjective experience. What’s shallow for you is more than most people can handle. Or just about right for them.

This game is made for a reason – profit. A company built it and makes content for it in order to generate revenue for themselves, for their publisher and ultimately their shareholders.

A wider audience means more money. A smaller audience means less.

It is pretty clear that all of their decisions are aimed at including as many people as possible in as much content as possible and trying to keep them connected to the game as often and as much as possible at a time.

Right, which is why blizzard is able to introduce content like mythic mode raiding and challenge dungeons and still keep afloat.

Tree.3916:

Seriously? How do you know he was fired for that? How do you know he was fired at all?
Even if what you said is true, how does that invalidate what he said?

Edit: My second question got answered http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Robert_Hrouda

Oh now that is just hilarious. LOL

Anything else they’d like to share that was designed by someone no longer with the company?

Or perhaps they’d like to talk about how the same thing was done in another NCsoft game with another team that’s not doing so well over there either with similar design flaws. (Wildstar) because that would be just as inherently bad. Wildstar however was setup to be for the nostalgic (you know those people like that person who just made the argument of get off if you don’t like the game, yeah those people) and they realized also just what not to do after launch whereas GW2 was originally trying to attract all kinds of players and then went through a change mid way after launch to become something completely different then what they were talking about at launch or in beta.

So explain to us again how you feel it’s okay for a game company to attract one audience and then completely break what that audience is seeking half way through because that’s what happened here with Zerker, Zerker wasn’t the meta when the game launched you could actually do what the devs claimed you could do with ease and ability in fact you could actually use CC on bosses and it was amazing the difference in fights. Now though it’s been dumbed down to the point that all you need to do is rush everything with no strat. Tell us again how that’s an improvement.

An no profit isn’t the only reason games are made. Blizz recently made several changes to their progression model because they too understand the need for players to play the way they want to play. In fact a huge balance patch is about to come out that’s supposed to enhance and rebalance all classes because of the problems in these classes that GhostCrawler caused while working there in previous expansions that they didn’t have time to fix in this one.

Some of us are just waiting patiently for Arenanet to get rid of their own GhostCrawler problems here in this game that have caused years of PVE imbalance, how is that wrong?