Guild Wars 2

Gameplay being dictated by gear is exactly what the ‘gear as difficulty slider’ is promoting though.

An inclusion of further base tools and abilities that could be used regardless of what you are wearing, but would become more advantageous depening upon whether you put on glassy gear or defensive gear, would follow the same philosophy that currently works where content can be completed naked, but putting on berserker gear ramps up your offense to cut down on the time to defeat the enemy further with greater effectiveness of abilities.

It just sounds like the game would be better off without gear stats being a factor at all, and just expanding the trait system to have more interesting ability modifiers.

It sounds like even having the existance of an advanced difficulty level would just have people complain that they cannot complete that difficulty level due to their lack of skill or time to get said skill due to other stuff in their lives. The base enjoyment would still be there for anybody who does not have the time or will to go deeper, why not just include more for those who can afford to take their gameplay further?

Just because utopia is out of reach does not mean one can’t go for the next best thing.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose for some.
I know running in wildly gets people killed – there is a lot more that goes on than you probably realise
Pass me the popcorn over – my first batch just ran out.

TPMN.1483:

Ignorance is bliss I suppose for some.
I know running in wildly gets people killed – there is a lot more that goes on than you probably realise
Pass me the popcorn over – my first batch just ran out.

by a lot more that goes on then we realize, if you mean things like timing blind pulses, blocks, blinds, counter stun right before successful cast to increase the down time frame of the opponent and increase window of opportunity, I personally see that as just regular combat etiquette and combat rotation.

People clamor about how there is just so much that goes into a might-prestack and then deep freeze ice storm rotation when in reality its just a DPS rotation just like how DPS manage cooldowns in WoW or Rift Online, or any MMOs.

I specifically am talking about the after fact, when all of that is already understood and mastered.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Right, which is why blizzard is able to introduce content like mythic mode raiding and challenge dungeons and still keep afloat.

Blizzard has always provided hard content for a percentage of their player base that they have acknowledged is small. The ability to generate that kind of content is also greatly enhanced by having a budget commensurate with the game’s income. When last reported, WoW had ~10M players. When last reported, GW2 had sold ~3.5M copies.

Assuming that the percentage of players that want hard content is roughly the same in each game, then those who want hard content in GW2 are generating a similar percentage of a (much) smaller amount. That is not a safe assumption, as there is no data to suggest that players who want more challenge spend more on gems. Also, I suspect GW2’s percentage of players who want hard content is smaller — if only because Blizz does cater to that demographic.

Still, ANet is at least exploring the idea of (presumably) harder content. FWIW, I’d like to see hard mode and normal mode dungeons (and not just story/explorable) as well as normal/hard mode raids (if they materialize at all). After all, if Blizz is to be the bellwether, that’s what they do.

IndigoSundown.5419:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Right, which is why blizzard is able to introduce content like mythic mode raiding and challenge dungeons and still keep afloat.

Blizzard has always provided hard content for a percentage of their player base that they have acknowledged is small. The ability to generate that kind of content is also greatly enhanced by having a budget commensurate with the game’s income. When last reported, WoW had ~10M players. When last reported, GW2 had sold ~3.5M copies.

Assuming that the percentage of players that want hard content is roughly the same in each game, then those who want hard content in GW2 are generating a similar percentage of a (much) smaller amount. That is not a safe assumption, as there is no data to suggest that players who want more challenge spend more on gems. Also, I suspect GW2’s percentage of players who want hard content is smaller — if only because Blizz does cater to that demographic.

Still, ANet is at least exploring the idea of (presumably) harder content. FWIW, I’d like to see hard mode and normal mode dungeons (and not just story/explorable) as well as normal/hard mode raids (if they materialize at all). After all, if Blizz is to be the bellwether, that’s what they do.

True enough. We can also add to the fact that harder content is generally more entertaining to watch depending on personal preference. (Anet also has been pushing streaming as evidenced by tournament weeklies)

I personally find it very entertaining to see people struggle through impossible content than to watch people cheddar lupi into a wall just to see him pop with confetti going everywhere.

If people didn’t like watching people struggle, Darksydephil wouldn’t be such a popular streamer.

Croc.5129:

Gameplay being dictated by gear is exactly what the ‘gear as difficulty slider’ is promoting though.

And it’s not. The encounter dictates the gameplay. If a boss has heavy CC you bring stability, if it has projectiles you bring reflects. The challenge of the encounter dictates how players answer it. Gear is irrelevant.

An inclusion of further base tools and abilities that could be used regardless of what you are wearing, but would become more advantageous depening upon whether you put on glassy gear or defensive gear, would follow the same philosophy that currently works where content can be completed naked, but putting on berserker gear ramps up your offense to cut down on the time to defeat the enemy further with greater effectiveness of abilities.

Translation: you want to be rewarded for wearing tanky gear beyond the fact that you are nearly invincible. that sounds like horrible game design.

It just sounds like the game would be better off without gear stats being a factor at all, and just expanding the trait system to have more interesting ability modifiers.

I’ve said for a while that it would be better if everyone’s gear was Celestial and the only meaningful gearing decision was runes/sigils. This would get the anti-zerker crowd to better understand the fact that gear is irrelevant to playstyle.

It sounds like even having the existance of an advanced difficulty level would just have people complain that they cannot complete that difficulty level due to their lack of skill or time to get said skill due to other stuff in their lives. The base enjoyment would still be there for anybody who does not have the time or will to go deeper, why not just include more for those who can afford to take their gameplay further?

You make it sound like the berserker crowd is the one opposing hard content. We want raids, dungeons and skill gated content. I think you’re quite mistaken if you believe that there are highly skilled hardcore pve players who wear tanky gear. You’re quite mistaken if you think the tanky gear crowd are the ones who would be most interested in challenging content: these people need tanky gear for CURRENT content, what do you suppose hard content would be?

Just because utopia is out of reach does not mean one can’t go for the next best thing.

What makes you so sure that we aren’t already there? It’s your highly subjective opinion that the current game isn’t good, or could be improved greatly by implementing your ideas. Well, my subjective opinion is that you’re completely mistaken and refuse to change your ideas even after I’ve thoroughly and politely presented a case that completely destroys your position. Since our two opinions cancel out, I don’t know what the next step is for you, but I would suggest you refer to the 3 options I presented a few posts ago since those 3 are still on the table.

hybrid.5027:

Croc.5129:

An inclusion of further base tools and abilities that could be used regardless of what you are wearing, but would become more advantageous depening upon whether you put on glassy gear or defensive gear, would follow the same philosophy that currently works where content can be completed naked, but putting on berserker gear ramps up your offense to cut down on the time to defeat the enemy further with greater effectiveness of abilities.

Translation: you want to be rewarded for wearing tanky gear beyond the fact that you are nearly invincible. that sounds like horrible game design.

You took the words right out of my mouth

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

You’ve presented a case that merely states that you are happy with the way things are, irregardless of whether it is better for overall game balance or not. You cannot say that gear is irrelevant when you have gear that has a direct influence on the abilities you use, and other gear that does not, at the very least.

I also never stated that hardcore players are wearing tanky gear. Why would they when the game offers no optimal path for tanky gear to proceed in that compares to going glass and tackling the content. Challenging content would include adaptive enemies that would use abilities that force the player to pay attention at all times, something as simple as the enemy noticing that it is not doing much damage with direct damage so it starts utilising abilities which may break through that defense, and the player needs to respond to that. Or the enemy notices that your armor is weak, and so ramps up the frequency of their attacks, and they then must be interrupted or weakened to counter their increased ferocity. You could have basic enemies that have no tools to deal with any of these things, but bosses should be more complicated affairs that would actually need to make one think.

And what interesting things can you do with that invincibility that opens you to any risk for a valuable reward? Just being able to stand there, take all the hits you want, and eventually be able to beat the enemy with nothing else to use it for, no actual challenge to open for yourself to show that you have actually learned the mechanics of the game, sounds boring and stale. And including abilities both players and npcs could use to answer this invincibility to encourage more active play would be a part of the overall balancing effort.

None of the changes that are being proposed would happen in a vaccuum.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t know about Volcanic Fractal at lvl 50, but with an Elementalist using full Cleric gear you can nearly AFK the Spider in AC and never risk getting downed. You can’t 100% afk her because you need to move out of some AOEs, other than that you can pretty much tank any of her other attacks and easy mode it.

You can’t do that with Berserker gear. That’s the huge difference

Oh I’ve been in a group of 3 tanky engineers, they can pretty much do CoE and kill Subject Alpha WITHOUT dodging. And we all know how hard Alpha hits, try killing Alpha in full Berserker gear without EVER dodging… no matter the profession you will die.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t know about Volcanic Fractal at lvl 50, but with an Elementalist using full Cleric gear you can nearly AFK the Spider in AC and never risk getting downed. You can’t 100% afk her because you need to move out of some AOEs, other than that you can pretty much tank any of her other attacks and easy mode it.

You can’t do that with Berserker gear. That’s the huge difference

My point is that just because you’re invincible in a lvl30 dungeon doesn’t mean its the same for a lvl80 scenario where damage is ramped way up along with constant AR ticks that inhibit healing at inopportune times. Higher level content scales in reverse as far as difficulty as zerg mechanics like getting overwhelmed by tar elementalists or wolves spawning out of control come into play where higher forms of damage scales out where as toughness specs are left in the dirt.

For this reason the statement that you are invincible is completely false in its entirety and only applies to those scenarios. As Hybrid used it in a general term, he is therefore incorrect unless he can prove otherwise.

Thaddeus.4891:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

And this is the difference between “tanky” healing gear and dps gear. Their difference is in speed and encounter difficulty.

Thaddeus.4891:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

These are all part of the problem. I can tank the spider boss in AC just fine with a mace and focus, but I’m not celebrating that kind of bland gameplay.

This is closer to what gameplay is like when you can’t play skillfully. The game should have to demand more from you for optimal play despite the armour you wear. I find it imbalanced.

Croc.5129:

Thaddeus.4891:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

These are all part of the problem. I can tank the spider boss in AC just fine with a mace and focus, but I’m not celebrating that kind of bland gameplay.

I will second this.

Active play should be a part of every archetype regardless if you are bunker or not. The difference is the active play methods that come into play.

The only things that really comes close is playing a bunker on point in sPvP, that is what bunker should be doing in PvE, not just some training wheels, but an actual tactical choice of engagement.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Croc.5129:

Thaddeus.4891:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

These are all part of the problem. I can tank the spider boss in AC just fine with a mace and focus, but I’m not celebrating that kind of bland gameplay.

I will second this.

Active play should be a part of every archetype regardless if you are bunker or not. The difference is the active play methods that come into play.

The only things that really comes close is playing a bunker on point is sPvP, that is what bunker should be doing in PvE, not just some training wheels, but an actual tactical choice of engagement.

Bunkers in PVP have one role, to stay alive and stall the enemy team until help arrives to help them. That’s their main purpose and they spec for defense because they need to hold points. Holding an objective can be used in certain pve encounters, but can’t be used everywhere and for all boss encounters.

maddoctor.2738:

Bunkers in PVP have one role, to stay alive and stall the enemy team until help arrives to help them. That’s their main purpose and they spec for defense because they need to hold points. Holding an objective can be used in certain pve encounters, but can’t be used everywhere and for all boss encounters.

Holding your ground can be equated to not disengaging from the enemy in a pve environment. The process for that just needs to be more engaging than just being able to stand there and take hits.

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Croc.5129:

Thaddeus.4891:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

These are all part of the problem. I can tank the spider boss in AC just fine with a mace and focus, but I’m not celebrating that kind of bland gameplay.

I will second this.

Active play should be a part of every archetype regardless if you are bunker or not. The difference is the active play methods that come into play.

The only things that really comes close is playing a bunker on point is sPvP, that is what bunker should be doing in PvE, not just some training wheels, but an actual tactical choice of engagement.

Bunkers in PVP have one role, to stay alive and stall the enemy team until help arrives to help them. That’s their main purpose and they spec for defense because they need to hold points. Holding an objective can be used in certain pve encounters, but can’t be used everywhere and for all boss encounters.

I would like to see it used in a method akin to shooters like Gears of War or Army of Two where the bunker is used as an advancing bulwark to provide a better combat position outside of point defense.

Guild Wars 2 even though an MMORPG borrows heavily from these types of games, the fact that you can swing wildly at nothing, the type of acrobatics you can achieve on legacy of foefire, the fact that DOWNSTATE is straight out of these games like borderlands, gears of war, etc. GW2 needs another push into the action direction and bunker setups can fit very nicely in the picture as the “heavy” of a squad setup.

This thread again. I feel like I need to do a PSA on this topic because of how often it is raised and complained about and how much misinformation surrounds it.

Here is a segment taken from a previous post of mine about the subject and why the complaints about the berserker meta/gear/hate on DPS players in PvE are sadly unwarranted and do not contribute to solving the problem.

DeceiverX:8361

The problem still lies not in the stat allocation and distribution among equipment sets and their effects in combat but in why the optimization of certain strategies creates metagame strategies. Metagames are literally optimizations – abstract optimizations – or games within games – which define the “best” methodology of approaching a given situation based on a desired output yield; due to the fact this is an optimization within a confined environment, if variables change, that optimization at some threshold is guaranteed to also change.

And it can only change, not be removed altogether.

This is asserted in that in order to create a situation where there exists no metagame strategy, the ability to create an algorithmic solution to an associated problem must be removed. This implies one of two things:

Either there are infinitely many variables allowed to influence the problem (impossible due to programmatic limitations when examining computation theory and algorithms),

or

Two different algorithms perform exactly identical operations despite being differently constructed (a paradox; similar to 1 = 2).

So how are metagame strategies better removed? Well, by simply attempting to increase the pool of available variables to create the illusion that there are infinitely many, or try to approach infinitely many as best as possible.

Therefore in this kind of context, optimization adjustments to just raw numerical data will not affect much, for the variables are pretty much figured out.

So adding more – or simply changing – the number variables is what needs to occur.

So in TL;DR/simple speech, the dungeon design needs to change, since the algorithms of how to solve the problem have been figured out, and running some numbers is all it takes to tweak the dominant metagame strategy into a new one, merely moving the problem somewhere else, and we’re back at square one. By altering the dungeons to allow for the incorporation of more variables, the metagame requires much more effort to re-establish due to more complexity and dependencies on the differences between human interactions with the content.

The meta is entirely player-created. Full-DPS is always going to kill things faster than anything else. The game’s motto is in fact “play how you want,” and it is still holding that way, for any content can be beaten by say, a party of all glassy DPS, unlike most other games which outright require a dedicated tank, healer, etc.

So the problem lies in the content design, and has nothing to do with stat distributions on gear. Not to mention that berserker gear is often considered as ineffective, undesirable, and in many cases, strictly bad in both sPvP and WvW. It’s one combination that’s dominating the PvE scene on the sole basis that defensive trait lines are over-rewarding and offensive ones are underwhelming paired with the fact that people just want to optimize their time and get through their daily grinds for money, exp, whatever, and that because dungeon completion time is based upon kill speed, it makes running DPS the ultimate option.

No matter what happens, the game environment in regards to organized PvE and metagame strategies will ALWAYS be this way. Berserker gear, soldier’s, hell, even Nomad’s; it doesn’t matter. What matters is that people are going to want to optimize their time spent, and with dungeons just based on kill speed and draining hp bars, nothing in regards to the attitude of players will change unless the dungeons themselves are to reward those playing supportive/tank roles by allowing for them to reduce the time spent in the dungeons, and even then, it may possibly create an environment where certain other classes, builds, or gearing setups are desirable for one particular portion of the dungeon, excluding other players.

Ultimately the responsibility lies in the players and there is little to nothing ANet can do about it.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Croc.5129:

Thaddeus.4891:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

These are all part of the problem. I can tank the spider boss in AC just fine with a mace and focus, but I’m not celebrating that kind of bland gameplay.

I will second this.

Active play should be a part of every archetype regardless if you are bunker or not. The difference is the active play methods that come into play.

The only things that really comes close is playing a bunker on point is sPvP, that is what bunker should be doing in PvE, not just some training wheels, but an actual tactical choice of engagement.

Bunkers in PVP have one role, to stay alive and stall the enemy team until help arrives to help them. That’s their main purpose and they spec for defense because they need to hold points. Holding an objective can be used in certain pve encounters, but can’t be used everywhere and for all boss encounters.

I would like to see it used in a method akin to shooters like Gears of War or Army of Two where the bunker is used as an advancing bulwark to provide a better combat position outside of point defense.

Guild Wars 2 even though an MMORPG borrows heavily from these types of games, the fact that you can swing wildly at nothing, the type of acrobatics you can achieve on legacy of foefire, the fact that DOWNSTATE is straight out of these games like borderlands, gears of war, etc. GW2 needs another push into the action direction and bunker setups can fit very nicely in the picture as the “heavy” of a squad setup.

You still aren’t understanding that boss encounters define how you play. PvP encounters require a bunker to absorb tons of dmg. There are no PvE encounters that require a player to absorb tons of dmg since large wind up attacks are telegraphed and dodgeable. What you really want is an encounter that requires a tanky player to absorb damage. Unfortunately for you, that will never happen in this game as “defined roles” are non existent.

Tree.3916:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Croc.5129:

Thaddeus.4891:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

These are all part of the problem. I can tank the spider boss in AC just fine with a mace and focus, but I’m not celebrating that kind of bland gameplay.

I will second this.

Active play should be a part of every archetype regardless if you are bunker or not. The difference is the active play methods that come into play.

The only things that really comes close is playing a bunker on point is sPvP, that is what bunker should be doing in PvE, not just some training wheels, but an actual tactical choice of engagement.

Bunkers in PVP have one role, to stay alive and stall the enemy team until help arrives to help them. That’s their main purpose and they spec for defense because they need to hold points. Holding an objective can be used in certain pve encounters, but can’t be used everywhere and for all boss encounters.

I would like to see it used in a method akin to shooters like Gears of War or Army of Two where the bunker is used as an advancing bulwark to provide a better combat position outside of point defense.

Guild Wars 2 even though an MMORPG borrows heavily from these types of games, the fact that you can swing wildly at nothing, the type of acrobatics you can achieve on legacy of foefire, the fact that DOWNSTATE is straight out of these games like borderlands, gears of war, etc. GW2 needs another push into the action direction and bunker setups can fit very nicely in the picture as the “heavy” of a squad setup.

You still aren’t understanding that boss encounters define how you play. PvP encounters require a bunker to absorb tons of dmg. There are no PvE encounters that require a player to absorb tons of dmg since large wind up attacks are telegraphed and dodgeable. What you really want is an encounter that requires a tanky player to absorb damage. Unfortunately for you, that will never happen in this game as “defined roles” are non existent.

So replace that instead with having the tanky player being able to take that hit and in exchange making the enemy vulnerable to more damaging assault, facilitated through ability use. Mistiming of said ability means the player takes bonus damage beyond normal as a consequence for not properly using their skill.

The point of all this is to find alternative replacements for roles, not just leave them in the same state as they were in the now obsolete environment GW2 left behind.

Tree.3916:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Croc.5129:

Thaddeus.4891:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

These are all part of the problem. I can tank the spider boss in AC just fine with a mace and focus, but I’m not celebrating that kind of bland gameplay.

I will second this.

Active play should be a part of every archetype regardless if you are bunker or not. The difference is the active play methods that come into play.

The only things that really comes close is playing a bunker on point is sPvP, that is what bunker should be doing in PvE, not just some training wheels, but an actual tactical choice of engagement.

Bunkers in PVP have one role, to stay alive and stall the enemy team until help arrives to help them. That’s their main purpose and they spec for defense because they need to hold points. Holding an objective can be used in certain pve encounters, but can’t be used everywhere and for all boss encounters.

I would like to see it used in a method akin to shooters like Gears of War or Army of Two where the bunker is used as an advancing bulwark to provide a better combat position outside of point defense.

Guild Wars 2 even though an MMORPG borrows heavily from these types of games, the fact that you can swing wildly at nothing, the type of acrobatics you can achieve on legacy of foefire, the fact that DOWNSTATE is straight out of these games like borderlands, gears of war, etc. GW2 needs another push into the action direction and bunker setups can fit very nicely in the picture as the “heavy” of a squad setup.

You still aren’t understanding that boss encounters define how you play. PvP encounters require a bunker to absorb tons of dmg. There are no PvE encounters that require a player to absorb tons of dmg since large wind up attacks are telegraphed and dodgeable. What you really want is an encounter that requires a tanky player to absorb damage. Unfortunately for you, that will never happen in this game as “defined roles” are non existent.

You will understand that in my reference to these games, a bulwark setup in these games is an entirely optional method of engagement that presents its own strengths and weaknesses that players must play against or make use of depending on their own personal skillset. These are shooters, high actions games with pretty decent skill floors.

Last I recall bunker setups were not “required” in sPvP either, as a matter of fact I believe a certain team was also disadvantaged due to running a bunker guard last world tournament.

I would also appreciate it if you used the words “in PvE” rather than “in this game”, when a bunker setup is clearly a defined role, and that role is surviving on point.

Croc.5129:

Tree.3916:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Croc.5129:

Thaddeus.4891:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

These are all part of the problem. I can tank the spider boss in AC just fine with a mace and focus, but I’m not celebrating that kind of bland gameplay.

I will second this.

Active play should be a part of every archetype regardless if you are bunker or not. The difference is the active play methods that come into play.

The only things that really comes close is playing a bunker on point is sPvP, that is what bunker should be doing in PvE, not just some training wheels, but an actual tactical choice of engagement.

Bunkers in PVP have one role, to stay alive and stall the enemy team until help arrives to help them. That’s their main purpose and they spec for defense because they need to hold points. Holding an objective can be used in certain pve encounters, but can’t be used everywhere and for all boss encounters.

I would like to see it used in a method akin to shooters like Gears of War or Army of Two where the bunker is used as an advancing bulwark to provide a better combat position outside of point defense.

Guild Wars 2 even though an MMORPG borrows heavily from these types of games, the fact that you can swing wildly at nothing, the type of acrobatics you can achieve on legacy of foefire, the fact that DOWNSTATE is straight out of these games like borderlands, gears of war, etc. GW2 needs another push into the action direction and bunker setups can fit very nicely in the picture as the “heavy” of a squad setup.

You still aren’t understanding that boss encounters define how you play. PvP encounters require a bunker to absorb tons of dmg. There are no PvE encounters that require a player to absorb tons of dmg since large wind up attacks are telegraphed and dodgeable. What you really want is an encounter that requires a tanky player to absorb damage. Unfortunately for you, that will never happen in this game as “defined roles” are non existent.

So replace that instead with having the tanky player being able to take that hit and in exchange making the enemy vulnerable to more damaging assault, facilitated through ability use. Mistiming of said ability means the player takes bonus damage beyond normal as a consequence for not properly using their skill.

The point of all this is to find alternative replacements for roles, not just leave them in the same state as they were in the now obsolete environment GW2 left behind.

Actually what some of us want is for PVE balance to be as important to the developers as SPVP seems to be. They told us early on that they would be separating the PVP PVE balance patches so as to prevent things like nerfing classes in PVE from happening. That’s not what’s happened here.

Secondly, there has been an ongoing problem where they’ve added CC and reflects and other such abilities to the game but made them completely useless or have you (Tree) forgotten how right after they gave use reflects in many a build in PVE they made certain attacks from bosses immune to reflects so they too became as useless as CC is today?

You don’t have to have the trinity to have cerebral gameplay you just have to give players choices multiple choices and allow them to work, that’s not what’s happening here, they’ve given us alot of choices but made most of them completely useless in the field when fighting champs and bosses and that’s where the phrase dumbing down applies.

There are roles in combat numerous ones that change depending on the fight. These roles are just not based on gear. Gear can be used to facilitate these roles but they can be accomplished without any gear at all (except weapons sometimes). I don’t think that this is a bad thing. It is a great thing, no waiting for trinity role classes or certain gear to complete content) and it values skill of the player and knowledge of the fight much more that gear stats.

This point was brought up numerous times in the Raiding CDI; it is really worth a read. In the CDI the devs have stated that they want the difficulty of content come from tiers. To complete an objective the thing most needed should be Knowledge of the mechanics involved; after this it should be based on player skill (stuff like timing, judgement, dexterity etc.); after this it should come gear to either facilitate or hinder player; after this is amount of players and scaling (content should be completable with lower than the number required).

The only reason gear is focused so much is that it enables those who know the content to do the content more quickly (using berserker or assassin’s gear) that is working as intended.

We can make the game hard enough that berzerker gear is impossible to use but then the next best dps gear would be meta and we would have lost most of the playerbase.

We can make roles dependent on our stats and that would mean that either everyone would have to carry multiple sets to change roles on the fly or be focused only on roles that they can do with the gear that they have (same issues as trinity). The fights would also be less diverse unless we want to spend as much time changing gear as we spend in combat.

tigirius.9014:

Actually what some of us want is for PVE balance to be as important to the developers as SPVP seems to be.

100% agree

tigirius.9014:

They told us early on that they would be separating the PVP PVE balance patches so as to prevent things like nerfing classes in PVE from happening. That’s not what’s happened here.

100% agree. It would make balancing the different aspects of the game easier.

tigirius.9014:

Secondly, there has been an ongoing problem where they’ve added CC and reflects and other such abilities to the game but made them completely useless

100% agree. Why have a skill when the functionality is removed.

tigirius.9014:

or have you (Tree) forgotten how right after they gave use reflects in many a build in PVE they made certain attacks from bosses immune to reflects so they too became as useless as CC is today?

How is CC useless?
Here are examples of where CC is incredibly useful…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHKQtrOVR7w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d1-rF2Q3uw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBtFWy-ccTk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1r1bfmoI4E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5OVFXH059M

tigirius.9014:

You don’t have to have the trinity to have cerebral gameplay
you just have to give players choices multiple choices and allow them to work, that’s not what’s happening here, they’ve given us alot of choices but made most of them completely useless in the field when fighting champs and bosses and that’s where the phrase dumbing down applies.

I disagree with this. Aside from a few bosses that negate reflects or blocks, the players still have plenty of choices depending on the game mode you are playing.
http://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki

Croc.5129:

Tree.3916:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Croc.5129:

Thaddeus.4891:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

These are all part of the problem. I can tank the spider boss in AC just fine with a mace and focus, but I’m not celebrating that kind of bland gameplay.

I will second this.

Active play should be a part of every archetype regardless if you are bunker or not. The difference is the active play methods that come into play.

The only things that really comes close is playing a bunker on point is sPvP, that is what bunker should be doing in PvE, not just some training wheels, but an actual tactical choice of engagement.

Bunkers in PVP have one role, to stay alive and stall the enemy team until help arrives to help them. That’s their main purpose and they spec for defense because they need to hold points. Holding an objective can be used in certain pve encounters, but can’t be used everywhere and for all boss encounters.

I would like to see it used in a method akin to shooters like Gears of War or Army of Two where the bunker is used as an advancing bulwark to provide a better combat position outside of point defense.

Guild Wars 2 even though an MMORPG borrows heavily from these types of games, the fact that you can swing wildly at nothing, the type of acrobatics you can achieve on legacy of foefire, the fact that DOWNSTATE is straight out of these games like borderlands, gears of war, etc. GW2 needs another push into the action direction and bunker setups can fit very nicely in the picture as the “heavy” of a squad setup.

You still aren’t understanding that boss encounters define how you play. PvP encounters require a bunker to absorb tons of dmg. There are no PvE encounters that require a player to absorb tons of dmg since large wind up attacks are telegraphed and dodgeable. What you really want is an encounter that requires a tanky player to absorb damage. Unfortunately for you, that will never happen in this game as “defined roles” are non existent.

So replace that instead with having the tanky player being able to take that hit and in exchange making the enemy vulnerable to more damaging assault, facilitated through ability use. Mistiming of said ability means the player takes bonus damage beyond normal as a consequence for not properly using their skill.

The point of all this is to find alternative replacements for roles, not just leave them in the same state as they were in the now obsolete environment GW2 left behind.

Tanky players can already take hits, a LOT of hits compared to DPS players, and they can finish the encounter, only slower. What you want is those Tanky players that can’t die as easily as DPS players, to also do comparable damage by “playing well”?

You get 2 situations then.

One, if this “extra” damage of the Tanky player is lower than the damage of DPS players nothing will change.

Two, if this “extra” damage makes Tanky players do equal damage to DPS players then what’s the point of DPS players?

Nobody is asking for the implementation of specific roles, just a wider variety of combat tools to apply to encounters. And if the game were in such a state that it was impossible to do in berserker gear, that would be a balance issue to be fixed.

I don’t understand, is there a “berserker problem”?

If the problem is “high DPS parties are more efficient in dungeons”, then I must say it does not seem like a problem to me, it’s seems logical: you do more damage, the bosses die faster.

Everyone is free to run whatever build they like, lfg gives everyone the option to join a group of like minded individuals.

I really don’t see the issue here…

Croc.5129:

Nobody is asking for the implementation fo specific roles, just a wider variety of combat tools to apply to encounters. And if the game were in such a state that it was impossible to do in berserker gear, that would be a balance issue to be fixed.

The problem with this statement is that the only way to fix the “berserker problem” is to implement specific roles. Otherwise people are still going to use the most efficient builds which will continue to be glass cannon builds. So you either go all in and force roles or you just create more challenging and interesting encounters but dont actually fix the “problem”. Do you see where we are coming from now?

Everyone is in agreement that future encounters should be more interesting and challenging. But thats a completely unrelated topic and has nothing to do with gear.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Croc.5129:

Nobody is asking for the implementation fo specific roles, just a wider variety of combat tools to apply to encounters. And if the game were in such a state that it was impossible to do in berserker gear, that would be a balance issue to be fixed.

The problem with this statement is that the only way to fix the “berserker problem” is to implement specific roles. Otherwise people are still going to use the most efficient builds which will continue to be glass cannon builds. So you either go all in and force roles or you just create more challenging and interesting encounters but dont actually fix the “problem”. Do you see where we are coming from now?

Everyone is in agreement that future encounters should be more interesting and challenging. But thats a completely unrelated topic and has nothing to do with gear.

I think its safe to say now that the underlying issue here was never the gear but rather mentalities and systems around it as we have already admitted to not liking the amount of invincibility that full bunker setups also provide. I believe the heart of the issue is in fact the encounters which will be fixed if encounters became interesting.

Encounters that mirrored our own abilities and our capability to extend the stats in the ways we please from going full glass to full bunker and everything in between and our ability to counter play using toolsets that we have chosen.

maddoctor.2738:

Tanky players can already take hits, a LOT of hits compared to DPS players, and they can finish the encounter, only slower. What you want is those Tanky players that can’t die as easily as DPS players, to also do comparable damage by “playing well”?

You get 2 situations then.

One, if this “extra” damage of the Tanky player is lower than the damage of DPS players nothing will change.

Two, if this “extra” damage makes Tanky players do equal damage to DPS players then what’s the point of DPS players?

To facilitate different but equivolent combat tactics, with their own sets of challenges and mechanics to watch for in order to survive and excell in an encounter.

Tanky players can take lots of hits with little to no fear due to the mechanics of the game not challenging the player in this regard. This would have to change.

The trinity does not exist anymore, so why limit the use of stats to traditional trinity roles? Gear is not supposed to be a factor in deciding your place in damage/control/support, correct?

If this was a proper character action game where you were playing a specific character, you would have a game revolving around that character’s abilities, tactics, and weapon combos. Stats would not be necessary. This game does not have a high enough action pedigree to facilitate this, and has decided that stats still matter in some capacity. The most logical direction would be to simply design alternate equivolent paths to the same destination. Tanking mobs is no longer a role in the game like in a trinity game, and we do not want to force roles in the game, so apply them to something new, rather than leave them the same, which is wholly uninteresting in the current game’s implementation.

Whatever meta does arise from any changes in this regard, it is hopeful that it will encompass a greater variety on the axis of offensive and defensive setups. This goes beyond just adjusting numbers, this means adding on to the game as a whole to include more team dynamics and meaningful ability interactions.

Croc.5129:

Nobody is asking for the implementation of specific roles, just a wider variety of combat tools to apply to encounters.

Here you go! These are tools. These are things that you use in the game. Gear is stuff you wear. While some of these effects are produced passively, most are produced by taking actions. Stats are wholly and entirely passive.

I’d be fine with more tools, though it might take me some time to come up with anything that’s obviously lacking on that list. I’m fine with new mob mechanics. I’m not fine with convoluted schemes to bypass the opportunity cost of building bulky.

Someone in this (or another of the recent similar threads) cited Mordrem mobs as ANet’s attempt to “shake up the meta.” If those mobs have done anything it was simply to move the offense-defense stat slider for some players. The skill ceiling is higher to wear glass gear. That’s all it is, and that’s all you’re going to get unless dedicated roles get implemented.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Croc.5129:

Nobody is asking for the implementation of specific roles, just a wider variety of combat tools to apply to encounters.

Here you go! These are tools. These are things that you use in the game. Gear is stuff you wear. While some of these effects are produced passively, most are produced by taking actions. Stats are wholly and entirely passive.

I’d be fine with more tools, though it might take me some time to come up with anything that’s obviously lacking on that list. I’m fine with new mob mechanics. I’m not fine with convoluted schemes to bypass the opportunity cost of building bulky.

Someone in this (or another of the recent similar threads) cited Mordrem mobs as ANet’s attempt to “shake up the meta.” If those mobs have done anything it was simply to move the offense-defense stat slider for some players. The skill ceiling is higher to wear glass gear. That’s all it is, and that’s all you’re going to get unless dedicated roles get implemented.

The thing is, offensive stats have a very noticeable impact on the effectiveness of your tools, while your other tools are more isolated to the standard trait system. It does not make for a really compelling set of options. You have tools that capitalise on an increase in offense, where are the tools that do so for defensive setups? Its not like we’re expected to go into battle without gear, thats just something people do because they’re trying to challenge themselves and the base game is not that hard.

I am a believer in opportunity cost coming from your playing style rather than putting on tanky gear and expecting to be safe and snug and able to just waltz through content with fewer worries.

And I do not find the Mordrem to be compelling content.

We have left roles behind, but we still have stats that are used as if they are still expected to fulfill those specific roles.

So what you want is a way to be able to do more damage and be able to sustain yourself using the skillfully timed use of game mechanics?

That is a perfect description of Berserker’s/Assassin’s gear+Active Defenses…

The Deb’s could literally change Power to be called Toughness, Precision to be called Vitality, Ferocity to be called Healing Power, and call this gear set Nomad’s/Cleric’s/etc and it would perfectly fit what you are describing.

These ‘options’ and ‘mechanics’ you’re asking for sound like something completely contrived for nothing more than ‘roleplaying’ reason.

Also, suggesting that closing the gap of efficiency between the gearsets would somehow promote more options is completely illogical and sounds like a ‘solution’ to a ‘problem’ that is in somebody’s head. Why not just make everyone use Celestial gear as was mentioned earlier then? If I want to have a snack and my ‘options’ are an apple or an apple or an apple, then those aren’t really options are they?

Anything outside of “Change encounter designs” will be contrived and silly.

Croc.5129:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Croc.5129:

Nobody is asking for the implementation of specific roles, just a wider variety of combat tools to apply to encounters.

Here you go! These are tools. These are things that you use in the game. Gear is stuff you wear. While some of these effects are produced passively, most are produced by taking actions. Stats are wholly and entirely passive.

I’d be fine with more tools, though it might take me some time to come up with anything that’s obviously lacking on that list. I’m fine with new mob mechanics. I’m not fine with convoluted schemes to bypass the opportunity cost of building bulky.

Someone in this (or another of the recent similar threads) cited Mordrem mobs as ANet’s attempt to “shake up the meta.” If those mobs have done anything it was simply to move the offense-defense stat slider for some players. The skill ceiling is higher to wear glass gear. That’s all it is, and that’s all you’re going to get unless dedicated roles get implemented.

The thing is, offensive stats have a very noticeable impact on the effectiveness of your tools, while your other tools are more isolated to the standard trait system. It does not make for a really compelling set of options. You have tools that capitalise on an increase in offense, where are the tools that do so for defensive setups? Its not like we’re expected to go into battle without gear, thats just something people do because they’re trying to challenge themselves and the base game is not that hard.

I am a believer in opportunity cost coming from your playing style rather than putting on tanky gear and expecting to be safe and snug and able to just waltz through content with fewer worries.

And I do not find the Mordrem to be compelling content.

We have left roles behind, but we still have stats that are used as if they are still expected to fulfill those specific roles.

We can argue the toolsets of weakness, protection, regeneration, and well all defensive boons play in the hands of toughness setups, increasing the effective health of bunkers when played at proper moments. This generally is not represented as such outside WvW or sPvP due to the nature of PvE content currently.

Eating an apple, a banana, and pear all taste different but will still end with food to fill you up.

The point is not the end result, but the gameplay required to achieve that result.

Changing encounter designs to actually require more diverse group setups would force roles into the game. Offering alternate styles and paths to the same goal is meant to allow people to find a combat style they prefer and apply it skillfully to high level play.

Stat implementation in the game as it was does not promote equivelancy when the risk/reward structure is so closely tied to the gear you put on instead of just your own personal gameplay.

This still hasn’t ended ?
Like aren’t you tired ?
We have such posts here every now and then, did you notice any changes to the “berserker, zerker, hurrdurr, stacking, no necros and rangers“ meta ? I guess you didn’t.
Most of the people who complain about the berserker meta are no actual hardcore dungeonrunners.
Heck, people still complain about the stacking in dungeons. Like who still stacks ? Fighting bosses in the open is way smoother after the nerf of FGS.
The reason why the “dungeonrunners“ under us run berserker gear is because we did every path in this game for about 100000 times. We know when to dodge, steakth, aegis etc. Why does that make our gear prior ? We simply have enough experience to run the absolute glass-cannon builds while surviving..
So, the problen as far as I’ve encountered it, is that less experienced players simply fail to understand that we do not want to need 10minutes for a fight instead of our usual 5. Wanna know why ? We have done the fight so many times that we simply do not want to need that much time.
God, open your minds..

Yours sincerely,
A tired old “hurrdurr“ lover.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

We can argue the toolsets of weakness, protection, regeneration, and well all defensive boons play in the hands of toughness setups, increasing the effective health of bunkers when played at proper moments. This generally is not represented as such outside WvW or sPvP due to the nature of PvE content currently.

And they can be applied effectively to a player in offensive gear in pve to keep themselves alive during an encounter. Since being a bunker is of no value in a game where aggro management is not nearly as controlled as in a trinity game, this makes a difference.

The reason an addition to the mechanics of the game was proposed is because in the absence of further tools, the only way to make defensive stats of similar value is to add roles to PvE, which we are trying to avoid.

My problem with defensive stats is that they are acting in the exact same way as in a trinity game when they are no longer part of a trinity environment, and they are dull as dirt when it comes to considering a playing option in PvE. Encounter design at this stage would only succeed in forcing roles to hard counter specific implementations, instead of existing in a more fluid and freeform rhythm of counterplay.

X T D.6458:

I dont understand why zerker is the problem its just one of many available stats. If you or someone want to run a party full of clerics or condi builds nothing stopping you. Whats wrong with people running whatever they want, how would you feel if people were telling you what to run, and that what your running is wrong, chances are you have heard that so why go ahead and do the same exact thing to others? Let people run whatever the heck they want, dont like it, dont party up with them, dont run with them simple as that. People will always find the fastest way to do something. Get over it.

I will say that condition builds do need a long overdue buff for pve.

Berserker isn’t the problem, the fact that berserker is the only efficient way to PvE is. Something needs to be done to make things other than pure dps decent options

Croc.5129:

Stat implementation in the game as it was does not promote equivelancy when the risk/reward structure is so closely tied to the gear you put on instead of just your own personal gameplay.

except it isn’t. Use the example of a boss that always stuns.

Sure, i could stack nothing but pwr/vit/tough and just take the hits and the dmg, OR I can change one skill on my bar to a stability skill and just keep dmging through it or using the get-out-of-all-dmg-free roll mechanic to survive along with any movement skills on my weapon that allows me to dodge.

heck, there are videos of people who do dungeons naked, and sometimes solo naked.

And then there are more of who just solo dungeons. They should be more rewarded then right? But they don’t get extra rewards at the end or gear, they get the same kitten people who ran it.

I mean, honestly, who should get rewarded more with gameplay? Someone who can dodge almost all the attacks, take next to no dmg? Or someone who stands there and just gets their face mashed in?

Actually, you know what? This could technically be done to see who did the best. Implement a scoring system. Take it off of Warframe. Who dealt the most dmg? most kills, least dmg taken, most healing, least deaths…etc, give them points, and whoever has the most wins gets a bonus.

There doesn’t need to be “stats that effect our defensive tool”. Our Active Defenses are already at 100% effectiveness. That’s the point of active combat. Passive defense stats provide a buffer against mistiming/misusing those active defenses. The gear set stats only act as ‘role definition’ if you are wearing your ‘typical MMO’ blinders. Try getting rid of all of your preconceptions about how MMOs work or should be designed and accept GW2 on it’s own terms and all of these complaints will have proved themselves to be a figment of your imagination.

Serophous.9085:

except it isn’t. Use the example of a boss that always stuns.

Sure, i could stack nothing but pwr/vit/tough and just take the hits and the dmg, OR I can change one skill on my bar to a stability skill and just keep dmging through it or using the get-out-of-all-dmg-free roll mechanic to survive along with any movement skills on my weapon that allows me to dodge.

heck, there are videos of people who do dungeons naked, and sometimes solo naked.

And then there are more of who just solo dungeons. They should be more rewarded then right? But they don’t get extra rewards at the end or gear, they get the same kitten people who ran it.

I mean, honestly, who should get rewarded more with gameplay? Someone who can dodge almost all the attacks, take next to no dmg? Or someone who stands there and just gets their face mashed in?

Actually, you know what? This could technically be done to see who did the best. Implement a scoring system. Take it off of Warframe. Who dealt the most dmg? most kills, least dmg taken, most healing, least deaths…etc, give them points, and whoever has the most wins gets a bonus.

It is your own decision to run a dungeon outside of its design parameters. If there was a solo mode, then there would be an argument, but they were not running content made for a single person. That is on the game.

Defensive stats do not do anything meaningful to contribute to victory in the current PvE environment, and enemy AI are too dumb to actually be a threat to the person with the heavy armor.

The fact that the person in heavy armor can do nothing but get smashed in the face is a part of the problem. Why tolerate that kind of passive play when there is an opportunity to implement mechanics which would allow for them to have to play dynamically, with a more active use of abilities to gain an advantage over their enemy.

The point is to make them all actually require effort, and be rewarded for actually using their skills properly.

Tman.6349:

There doesn’t need to be “stats that effect our defensive tool”. Our Active Defenses are already at 100% effectiveness. That’s the point of active combat. Passive defense stats provide a buffer against mistiming/misusing those active defenses. The gear set stats only act as ‘role definition’ if you are wearing your ‘typical MMO’ blinders. Try getting rid of all of your preconceptions about how MMOs work or should be designed and accept GW2 on it’s own terms and all of these complaints will have proved themselves to be a figment of your imagination.

Offensive stats increase the effectiveness of offensive abilities.

rapthorne.7345:

X T D.6458:

I dont understand why zerker is the problem its just one of many available stats. If you or someone want to run a party full of clerics or condi builds nothing stopping you. Whats wrong with people running whatever they want, how would you feel if people were telling you what to run, and that what your running is wrong, chances are you have heard that so why go ahead and do the same exact thing to others? Let people run whatever the heck they want, dont like it, dont party up with them, dont run with them simple as that. People will always find the fastest way to do something. Get over it.

I will say that condition builds do need a long overdue buff for pve.

Berserker isn’t the problem, the fact that berserker is the only efficient way to PvE is. Something needs to be done to make things other than pure dps decent options

Actually, the problem is the dodge mechanic. Remove the 100% dmg free, and suddenly people will all have to wear some sort of toughness or vitality to survive some attacks.

Serophous.9085:

rapthorne.7345:

X T D.6458:

I dont understand why zerker is the problem its just one of many available stats. If you or someone want to run a party full of clerics or condi builds nothing stopping you. Whats wrong with people running whatever they want, how would you feel if people were telling you what to run, and that what your running is wrong, chances are you have heard that so why go ahead and do the same exact thing to others? Let people run whatever the heck they want, dont like it, dont party up with them, dont run with them simple as that. People will always find the fastest way to do something. Get over it.

I will say that condition builds do need a long overdue buff for pve.

Berserker isn’t the problem, the fact that berserker is the only efficient way to PvE is. Something needs to be done to make things other than pure dps decent options

Actually, the problem is the dodge mechanic. Remove the 100% dmg free, and suddenly people will all have to wear some sort of toughness or vitality to survive some attacks.

But that is precisely why the dodge mechanic exists. It replaces the mitigation of tanks in the encounter dynamic, now that dps is not expected to rely on a tank to soak up the majority of damage.

The issue is the game does not have a wide enough range of mechanics to support other gearing options with the same efficiency in PvE, when the tools at hand are perfect for supporting the glass build properly to implement skilled play.

You keep using a lot of different words as if they are synonymous for the one you’re implying. You can call it ‘play style’ or ‘role’ or ‘build’ or anything else but that won’t change the fact that you’re referring to gear stat prefixes as something they are not and never have been.

Croc.5129:

The point is to make them all actually require effort, and be rewarded for actually using their skills properly.

So then, a zerker who knows their rotation, knows when to dodge to not get killed or take dmg, doesn’t require effort. A zerker just walks up to a champ or legendary and starts wailing on it, never having to worry bout anything else?

Tman.6349:

You keep using a lot of different words as if they are synonymous for the one you’re implying. You can call it ‘play style’ or ‘role’ or ‘build’ or anything else but that won’t change the fact that you’re referring to gear stat prefixes as something they are not and never have been.

The gear you wear actively contributes to the whole of your character’s capabilities. Unless you are saying that the effects of the stats given are negligible, which we know is not true.

Serophous.9085:

Croc.5129:

The point is to make them all actually require effort, and be rewarded for actually using their skills properly.

So then, a zerker who knows their rotation, knows when to dodge to not get killed or take dmg, doesn’t require effort. A zerker just walks up to a champ or legendary and starts wailing on it, never having to worry bout anything else?

No.

The berserker player does put in effort.

I would like for other gear choices to require similar amounts of effort for effective play.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Right, which is why blizzard is able to introduce content like mythic mode raiding and challenge dungeons and still keep afloat.

If you don’t see the difference between WoW’s player base and GW2’s player base and target audience…then i doubt this discussion will go anywhere.