Guild Wars 2

Doing some thinking and it just hit me

Spiteful Spirit condition/debuff

In Guildwars 1 Spiteful Spirit was a very popular Necromancer Elite skill that once cast on a enemy would deal damage to the enemy and all near by enemies every time the cursed enemy attacked or used a skill

In Gw2 however.. this once powerful and popular elite skill has been reduced to a embarassingly useless trait that grants a couple seconds of retaliation when entering Death Shrowd..

I propose that we rename this trait and instead add a new Condition to the game called Spiteful Spirit
the condition would work exactly the same way as it did in Gw1.. dealing damage to the victim every time he uses a skill or attacks.. much like confusion does
but where the condition differs is that his attacks also damage his allies if they are close to him

if one player gets hit with SS and doesn’t remove it then it wouldn’t exactly cripple a party in a dungeon..
but if all 5 party members are cursed with it then there will be serious party damage if they are all stacked together like most people like to do

Personally I feel that this would be a great way to discourage this stacking meta in dungeon content and force people to use different tactics when taking on different content
it would also make condition removal somewhat more of a thing in dungeons as well
much like stun breakers have become more popular

Think things through before making kneejerk proposals that create more problems than they solve.

1.) Most speed run groups already do/will take condition removal when it’s necessary.

2.) This proposal hurts your YOLOLOLORAPIDFIRESWAG420BEARTANKNOSCOPE rangers more than it does any serious group

3. Organized groups would simply bring an AoE cleanse that ironically benefits from stacking. Yolo anti-stack groups hurt their DPS even further as every member is forced to bring a condi cleanse or stop attacking for a while.

4. LFG “elitism” would expand as requirements for clearing in a reasonable time are now tighter

tl;dr—the “evil stacking meta” groups would take 1-2 hours to get around this joke of a mechanism, and the only people left behind QQing will be the casual yolo runs

Question for you if you’re determined to see this through:

Will this damage be per attack (will cripple any casual pug groups) or per skill use (will have the effect of a tickle on any semi organized group with decent class comp)?

It would be per attack or per hit.. so skills like rapid fire and hundred blades would suffer most for it much like they do against enemies with retaliation

the point of this is mostly to bring new mechanics in the game which can lead to more challenging and enjoyable content and from a personal desire to revive what was once such a great mechanic of the original game

as for your points..
1. making condition removal more useful with this should only be more satisfying for speed running groups so no it probably wont change their runs and that’s fine
but for more inexperienced players who want to learn condi removal.. this would make for more challenging content which is the whole point

2. Yes it does but not just Rangers.. the quickness buffed hundred blade spamming Zerker warriors will also suffer greatly and since they are the stacking meta mostly as are the quickness buffed rangers.. this conditition is doing its job by turning these playstyles against them..
again this is the whole point of a anti stacking condition

3. a good counter for the condition which is what it is supposed to encourage

4. elitism is already a problem in this game.. from people demanding specific stats to a minimum achievement point number which is just moronic and has nothing to do with a players skill or capability then anything that makes it more difficult for these people to find groups the better..
players are always more likely to join a welcoming group ready to teach them than they are to join a group that tells them they are wrong and they suck because they don’t use what they want them to
if they can’t speed run the content with the meta then they will likely avoid it thus less elitist LFG in the long run

anyhow this is just a suggestion and I welcome peoples opinions and ideas on how we could implement a mechanic like this into the game

Make it a special property (not a new condition) of the occasional new boss and I’m game with it, sounds like an interesting mechanic.

It won’t solve the stacking “problem”, but I’m not sure how taking the risk of stacking (thus being clustered when aoes and cleaves hit) in order to share buffs is actually a problem… If buffs have a range, then a good team will stay in range to get the buff imo, or am I seeing this completely wrong?

If you don’t like to stack, simply make your own group and state no stacking. Who wants to spend more than 10 minutes doing a dungeon path when its the same dungeons since launch.

Snow.2048:

Make it a special property (not a new condition) of the occasional new boss and I’m game with it, sounds like an interesting mechanic.

It won’t solve the stacking “problem”, but I’m not sure how taking the risk of stacking (thus being clustered when aoes and cleaves hit) in order to share buffs is actually a problem… If buffs have a range, then a good team will stay in range to get the buff imo, or am I seeing this completely wrong?

This was never ment to solve the stacking problem..
it’s a way to counter it and force stacking groups into changing their tactics a bit with condition removal
stacking currently takes little to no effort at all
put zerker stats on and stand in a corner.. thats about it
having a condition to turn this playstyle against the player would be a fun way to counter this and encourage more group support like condition removal

it wont stop stacking but it would make it more risky and also make players more aware of different ways to tackle content

when all the games content can be beaten by people stacking in one spot and spamming 1+2 it takes a lot of fun out of the game..
I want to challenge this meta and make it more difficult to maintain and I think a condition that turns such a tactic against a party would be a good way of doing that

I quite enjoyed spiteful spirit in gw1 as well as a lot of the mesmer skills, was sad to see them gone. So I personally would be up for seeing punishment for attacks/using skill in the game again. It made a lot of encounters a lot more challenging (I still avoid breeze riders out of habit from gw1). I don’t see this getting rid of stacking per-say but It would liven things up in my opinion. Retaliation alone just doesn’t cut it, only time ive ever even noticed it do anything is with a glass cannon ele nuking a zerg in wvw.

I want to challenge this meta

If that’s truly your goal go do something more difficult than CoF1 and AC. Last I checked Fractal 50 had no issues with corner stack faceroll.

This easily stackable spammable “meta” offers some dungeon “endgame” (lol) content for the people who otherwise go to loot pinatas world bosses stacking and spamming 1. If you want to solve the problem perhaps start from open world.

Stacking already presents its own risks and increased damage from taking focused AoEs and cleaves without issue, I’m not sure how a condition that needs to be cleared once in a while (or pop resistance once that hits) would add to this. Instead of a whole new condition, they could add some bosses that have constant rapid attacks. Then players could counter with confusion, for example or need more sustainable defense. And all this without anything new being made.

Dave.2536:

tl;dr—the “evil stacking meta” groups would take 1-2 hours to get around this joke of a mechanism, and the only people left behind QQing will be the casual yolo runs

While what you say is true, stacking all the time in a corner or licking a wall all the time gets old.

I’ll be delighted to see an encounter where we are incentivised to spread out just to break the monotony. I’m not claiming we should make stacking impossible anywhere. Just to have one or two nice encounters that are done better by spreading.

VodCom.6924:

I’ll be delighted to see an encounter where we are incentivised to spread out just to break the monotony.

Perhaps you’re not looking hard enough.

Mindsets of GW2 players:

1.) I like challenging content that stretches me to my limits. Let’s do Arah and Fractal 50s!

2.) Why do Fractals when I can just corner stack stuff? Let’s do AC and CoF!

3.) Why do dungeons when I can just mash 1 with everyone? Let’s go hit the next loot pinata world boss!

4.) Why PvE at all when I can just play the TP? Time to flip more stuff!

It wouldn’t do a thing to remove the stacking meta.

The only way to remove the stacking meta is for ANet to research why 5 players don’t stack in PvP with their full zerker gear.

TIL… absolutely nothing!

I made a thread a long while back about reintroducing the Disease condition back into the Guild Wars universe — my goal was similar to yours.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-Disease/first

Thanks for adding another suggestion to challenge stacking in this game.

GW2 needs hexes in general. The difference of condition and hex was a good thing in GW1.

The problem with your suggestion is that you haven’t established that stacking is actually a bad thing.

MegumiAzusa.2918:

GW2 needs hexes in general. The difference of condition and hex was a good thing in GW1.

It is true, they were a good thing in GW1. I don’t think they would be workable in gw2 without changing them to the point they would not be recognized. remember, original GW1 hexes were not stackable – you could have had only one hex of a specific type, and the “hex stacking” meant piling up ton of different hexes. In gw2 it could be workable somehow in small group content (like dungeons), but in general (and specifically in open world) this would just mean adding to the already existing condition problem

Whenever I see these stacking posts come up I think to myself ‘How come my fotm 50 pugs range nearly every boss and yet these players seem to get groups that fight everything in meelee range?’ Is there some sort of codeword you have to use to get these players in your group?’

By the way, LOSing bosses in the corner is so pre fgs nerf, move on to the next trend already.

I did a full dungeon tour the other night.

I can count on less than one hand the number of corners I stacked in.

This game will never take skill like it did in gw1.
They will nerf damage even more so its nothing but 1,1,1,1 zergfest.

Ropechef.6192:

I did a full dungeon tour the other night.

I can count on less than one hand the number of corners I stacked in.

For fun I’ll list the places where we corner stack in meta teams…

AC: none.
CM: Trumaine tree in CMp2 to avoid his AOE until we can deep freeze
TA up: right before malrona to kill two groups of spiders before we aggro her. Mostly about killing the adds without aggroing her at the same time than using any properties of a corner.
SEp3: The first boss because the adds have projectile attacks. Also for Zadorajney because his adds have projectile attacks.
Cof: none
HotW: none
CoE: four golem laser room due to projectile attacks and to clump the mobs
Arah: none

So I count 4. You can make it a round 5 if you add Kohler in AC, but so long as you get a deep freeze on him you can safely fight him in the open too.

OMG SUCH STACKING MUST NERF

So because bad group that don’t know what they are doing and are stacking everywhere, we should make sure stacking don’t work anywhere to hurt those elistist jerk that almost never stack?

#puglogic

I don’t get this. If people don’t like stacking then create your own LFG stating that you don’t want stacking. Don’t force everyone else to play how you think that they should.

Teratus.2859:

it would also make condition removal somewhat more of a thing in dungeons

I lol’d.

Making 2+ years old content more annoying than it is now is not ok.

hybrid.5027:

Ropechef.6192:

I did a full dungeon tour the other night.

I can count on less than one hand the number of corners I stacked in.

For fun I’ll list the places where we corner stack in meta teams…

AC: none.
CM: Trumaine tree in CMp2 to avoid his AOE until we can deep freeze
TA up: right before malrona to kill two groups of spiders before we aggro her. Mostly about killing the adds without aggroing her at the same time than using any properties of a corner.
SEp3: The first boss because the adds have projectile attacks. Also for Zadorajney because his adds have projectile attacks.
Cof: none
HotW: none
CoE: four golem laser room due to projectile attacks and to clump the mobs
Arah: none

So I count 4. You can make it a round 5 if you add Kohler in AC, but so long as you get a deep freeze on him you can safely fight him in the open too.

OMG SUCH STACKING MUST NERF

i know,
Much stacking.

Given that I got the privilege of running with some of your crew it was a fantastic experience and set of runs.

Ran a CoF2 last night on my warr with some pugs from Baruch Bay just for the hell of it. They had 2 necros, a guard and a ranger.

The number of times they just mindlessly stacked somewhere
1. 3 Flamer spawn at start, they stacked to one side of the door, I aggro’d all of them with bladetrail then dodged through them and attacked from behind, forced l’espanols to come out and fight.
2. First burrower spawn, they stacked against a wall to pull the burrowers, I aggro’d again forcing the spaniards to come out and fight in the open.
3. Prison champ, stacked against the pillar. I aggro’d him out into the middle of the chamber, spaniards forced to come out and fight again.
4. Smokers at bomb door entrance, they stack against the wall and got promptly nailed by the line AOE attacks. I aggro the mobs out so they can res, fight them in the open.

Mindlesss stacking in the corner, overcome by aggro. Didn’t even get kicked, they were probably wondering how we didn’t wipe at least twice.

runeblade.7514:

It wouldn’t do a thing to remove the stacking meta.

The only way to remove the stacking meta is for ANet to research why 5 players don’t stack in PvP with their full zerker gear.

This isn’t about removing the stacking meta…

it’s about challenging it and introducing new mechanics into the game that would counter it

I’ve already mentioned this

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Teratus.2859:

it would also make condition removal somewhat more of a thing in dungeons

I lol’d.

Making 2+ years old content more annoying than it is now is not ok.

implying that it’s annoying?

how is it annoying when many players will agree that currently a lot of the games content is not challenging at all..

It’s harder to find a party for most dungeons than it is to complete the dungeon..

if you dislike challenging content then you are not going to enjoy the expansion which has a lot of focus on new mechanics and more challenging content

Teratus.2859:

runeblade.7514:

It wouldn’t do a thing to remove the stacking meta.

The only way to remove the stacking meta is for ANet to research why 5 players don’t stack in PvP with their full zerker gear.

This isn’t about removing the stacking meta…

it’s about challenging it and introducing new mechanics into the game that would counter it

I’ve already mentioned this

Ya but corner stacking is a bad idea already. Only players that don’t ask themselves any question are doing it more than a couple of times in a full dungeon run. So why do you want to introduce new mechanics to specifically counter a bad strategy? It’s like saying that you want new mechanics to counter healer because some ppl are still using that even if it’s already bad in the game.

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t get this. If people don’t like stacking then create your own LFG stating that you don’t want stacking. Don’t force everyone else to play how you think that they should.

Im not forcing anyone.. im suggesting a new mechanic for the game that I would love to see return
this has far more use than just stacking in dungeons

WvW and PvP will get use from such a condition as large Zergs in WvW could get crippled by some of their own members and in Pvp you can force people to distance themselves from one another or use the condition to put more preasure on multiple people at capture points

then in Pve it can be used to clear large groups of enemies

A counter to stacking was just implying one scenario that can be used against the players
the condition itself has many uses both for and against the players much as it did in Gw1

Thaddeus said it best.

Why would you introduce new mechanics with the sole intention of countering something that mostly bad players use for no reason 90% of the time?

Thaddeus.4891:

Ya but corner stacking is a bad idea already. Only players that don’t ask themselves any question are doing it more than a couple of times in a full dungeon run. So why do you want to introduce new mechanics to specifically counter a bad strategy? It’s like saying that you want new mechanics to counter healer because some ppl are still using that even if it’s already bad in the game.

It is sometimes but its still common and a lot of people do it
specially elitist players who will kick you for not stacking with them

the point is mostly about reviving a popular and enjoyable mechanic from the first game
Spiteful Spirit would have plenty of use in Gw2 as a condition
its not like it needs to be stupidly overpowered.. its mearly a pressure condition to force enemies into changing tactics
if your party can’t condi clense which is already a thing in speedrun groups anyway then better not to stack and instead keep some distance from one another or for infected players to stop attacking until its duration ends

essentially all Spiteful Spirit was.. is confusion with a AoE effect with lower dmg output
the closest thing to this we have in Gw2 is using epidemic on someone with confusion..

personally I think this condition mechanic would be fun in Gw2 and would give players a fun new toy to play with in PvP/WvW as well as adding a new mechanic to be cautious of in group content

Well they could add that condition if they want, wouldn’t change much for me. I would still stack only when it’s needed and I’m sure i’ll still get into party that stack in the corner at SE path 3 like idiots.

Dave.2536:

If that’s truly your goal go do something more difficult than CoF1 and AC. Last I checked Fractal 50 had no issues with corner stack faceroll.

This easily stackable spammable “meta” offers some dungeon “endgame” (lol) content for the people who otherwise go to loot pinatas world bosses stacking and spamming 1. If you want to solve the problem perhaps start from open world.

This condition would work really well in the open world as well

specially in content like The Shatterer for example where people just stack on the rocks and spam

and even against certain bosses/enemies that summon mobs for example

there are plenty of uses for this mechanic in Gw2

Thaddeus.4891:

Well they could add that condition if they want, wouldn’t change much for me. I would still stack only when it’s needed and I’m sure i’ll still get into party that stack in the corner at SE path 3 like idiots.

if they added this mechanic to SE path 3 and stacking was no longer viable then you wouldn’t have this problem..

besides if people are doing things wrong then why don’t you teach them when and were they should not stack on the run?

this is entirely the point of having a anti stacking condition.. to encourage different tactics and discourage stacking when its less effective

all im doing is promoting a old and fun mechanic from Gw1
there are tons of things from gw1 I’d love to see in Gw2
im enjoying the valid opinions of people such as yourself and I’ll admit im not every good at making my points clear most of the time

I don’t know if you are a gw1 player or not but if you are not then you should watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Bn_8a_i44A

Spiteful spirit is the skill causing all the 35 yellow dmg markers
one enemy hexed.. no problem.. 2 hexed.. pressure.. 3 hexed.. problem..

the more people effected the more aoe damage..
there are even times when the player pulls enemies closer together to deal more dmg
doesn’t this mechanic look fun to you at all?
I’d love to see what Anet could do with this concept in Gw2
specially with the combat system we have

You’re introducing a bad solution to a non-existent problem. Please explain why this is necessary.

“because pugs still do it even if its dumb!”

OK, well pugs also stack “heavies only” parties even though thats dumb too. Maybe you should introduce a bad mechanic that punishes teams for bringing multiple of the same profession?

hybrid.5027:

You’re introducing a bad solution to a non-existent problem. Please explain why this is necessary.

“because pugs still do it even if its dumb!”

OK, well pugs also stack “heavies only” parties even though thats dumb too. Maybe you should introduce a bad mechanic that punishes teams for bringing multiple of the same profession?

I never said that

and this isn’t a solution its a counter to a meta based on a mechanic I loved from the first game which I want to see return..

im pretty sure i’ve made this clear by now.. or are people just skipping through my posts?

Teratus.2859:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Teratus.2859:

it would also make condition removal somewhat more of a thing in dungeons

I lol’d.

Making 2+ years old content more annoying than it is now is not ok.

implying that it’s annoying?

how is it annoying when many players will agree that currently a lot of the games content is not challenging at all..

It’s harder to find a party for most dungeons than it is to complete the dungeon..

if you dislike challenging content then you are not going to enjoy the expansion which has a lot of focus on new mechanics and more challenging content

I want challenging encounters that make me think. Bosses that have many well telegraphed attacks and have interesting mechanics. Not some condition that cripples players for no reason.

Part about finding a party for dungeons is obviously not true. PHIW parties fill up really quickly. It can be slower with “experienced classname that knows what he is doing” and involves a lot of kicking because people can’t read but still not that bad.

Hmmm while we at “problem” solving… people that can’t read 3 words are huge problem too. What if completely at random in dungeons a question about the game would pop up. Something like “what is the name of the game you are playing right now?”. And if you don’t answer it in 10 seconds you will lose 10 gold.

Personally I feel that this would be a great way to discourage this didn’t read meta in dungeon content and force people to use their reading skills when taking on different content.
It would also make brain using somewhat more of a thing in dungeons as well.

Teratus.2859:

hybrid.5027:

You’re introducing a bad solution to a non-existent problem. Please explain why this is necessary.

“because pugs still do it even if its dumb!”

OK, well pugs also stack “heavies only” parties even though thats dumb too. Maybe you should introduce a bad mechanic that punishes teams for bringing multiple of the same profession?

I never said that

and this isn’t a solution its a counter to a meta based on a mechanic I loved from the first game which I want to see return..

im pretty sure i’ve made this clear by now.. or are people just skipping through my posts?

OK, let me rephrase: why do you want to “counter a meta?” Why is it necessary? It isn’t a problem so it doesn’t require “countering.”

I’m glad you liked the skill spiteful spirit in gw1. So did I. What’s it got to do with this game or what good game design looks like?

Teratus.2859:

And you think that I don’t do that? I never stack at SE path 3, if I have to solo the boss while 4 ppl are screaming and doing nothing in the corner, i’ll do it.

But in the end I don’t want to make corner stacking no longer viable. I don’t want to make stuff unviable. I want ppl to have the choice when they run. I want everything viable, just some stuff more efficient than other. Corner stacking isn’t a good strategy most of the time, but I want to use it when it’s good.

Like I said, i don’t really care about that condition if they put it in game or not. But if it’s strong enough to make corner stacking not viable, it will also make normal fighting a pain. Even when we don’t stack in a corner, we are all close together. We need to stay around 300 range from each other to share boons and melee stuff. I don’t want a mechanic to punish ppl that play close together.

It’s funny how all those proposals essentially shift GW2’s dungeon gameplay more towards the ‘team rope jumping’ style.
And, oh the irony, said shift affects elitist zerks in some infinitesimally impeding manner. On the other hand, unorganized PUGs and PHIWs are going to suffer. In some cases, right up to good chunks of content becoming unpuggable.

Thaddeus.4891:

Teratus.2859:

And you think that I don’t do that? I never stack at SE path 3, if I have to solo the boss while 4 ppl are screaming and doing nothing in the corner, i’ll do it.

But in the end I don’t want to make corner stacking no longer viable. I don’t want to make stuff unviable. I want ppl to have the choice when they run. I want everything viable, just some stuff more efficient than other. Corner stacking isn’t a good strategy most of the time, but I want to use it when it’s good.

Like I said, i don’t really care about that condition if they put it in game or not. But if it’s strong enough to make corner stacking not viable, it will also make normal fighting a pain. Even when we don’t stack in a corner, we are all close together. We need to stay around 300 range from each other to share boons and melee stuff. I don’t want a mechanic to punish ppl that play close together.

it’s not about making it unviable though.. its a counter to put more pressure on groups that play close together..
being forced apart is not a bad thing and it will increase the challenge of certain content if players are forced apart..
like you said.. boon sharing requiring close proximity etc..
personally I think its fun to challenge this

it seems though that you’ve assumed such a condition like this would be spammable..
that’s definitely not what im aiming at..
if anything I’d make it a bit less or as common as Torment.. at most..
the biggest threat of the condition would be if someone gets hit with it and its not debuffed before they are hit with a epidemic attack
as I’ve said its a pressure mechanic to keep players on their toes while playing

hybrid.5027:

OK, let me rephrase: why do you want to “counter a meta?” Why is it necessary? It isn’t a problem so it doesn’t require “countering.”

I’m glad you liked the skill spiteful spirit in gw1. So did I. What’s it got to do with this game or what good game design looks like?

Same reason Slow is being added to the game

new mechanics that currently don’t exist in Gw2 that can provide new fun and challenging content
that’s all im suggesting
the stacking meta in dungeons is little more than an example of how the mechanic would work
I’ve also given WvW and PvE examples in other posts too