Guild Wars 2

Pure Heart.1456:

Palador.2170:

Is it the idea that you dislike, or just using that name for the idea? We could call it something else, after all.

Part of the answer to your question is in my post, but to expand briefly,
How does the notion of disease (or similar mechanic by a different name) improve on the existing gameplay? In my view, it doesn’t. The ‘pros’ the OP refers to are vague and contrived.

Did you read through the thread or just my initial post? I’ve explained in good detail. The benefits are very worth it – if we could balance the condition.

Azhure.1857:

Pure Heart.1456:

Palador.2170:

Is it the idea that you dislike, or just using that name for the idea? We could call it something else, after all.

Part of the answer to your question is in my post, but to expand briefly,
How does the notion of disease (or similar mechanic by a different name) improve on the existing gameplay? In my view, it doesn’t. The ‘pros’ the OP refers to are vague and contrived.

Did you read through the thread or just my initial post? I’ve explained in good detail. The benefits are very worth it – if we could balance the condition.

I don`t know i still think that it is really horrible idea and we need more active gameplay condi/buffs like condi which reduces buff duration for 33% which is applied during this debuff . or maybe we need traits/ condis which can spread for example you set on fire if you touch burrinig ally

It would be awesome to see degeneration with disease implemented.

VOLTCIEAGE.3029:

Azhure.1857:

Pure Heart.1456:

Palador.2170:

Is it the idea that you dislike, or just using that name for the idea? We could call it something else, after all.

Part of the answer to your question is in my post, but to expand briefly,
How does the notion of disease (or similar mechanic by a different name) improve on the existing gameplay? In my view, it doesn’t. The ‘pros’ the OP refers to are vague and contrived.

Did you read through the thread or just my initial post? I’ve explained in good detail. The benefits are very worth it – if we could balance the condition.

I don`t know i still think that it is really horrible idea and we need more active gameplay condi/buffs like condi which reduces buff duration for 33% which is applied during this debuff . or maybe we need traits/ condis which can spread for example you set on fire if you touch burrinig ally

I’m confused….
You do know that Disease would promote the active gameplay you speak of, right? Anyone only half paying attention to the game while watching TV may not survive staying stacked with Disease activated. That’s a plus in my book.
Also this condition can spread…. So I’m really confused now.

Zelulose.8695:

It would be awesome to see degeneration with disease implemented.

Thanks for the support, Zelulose. I appreciate it and agree with you.

I like heavier influence from different races. Now it’s 99% cosmetic. However I don’t think disease is a good solution to promote that.

Question: Not that I’m a fan of the idea at all, or sure what the point of it is besides zerg busting, but would you consider making it something that cannot spread in cities? Or griefers could go wreck up on people crafting, banking, TP’ing, or RP’ing.

RP happens not only in cities, however. So how do you protect people who are grouped up to socialize and don’t really need a plague zombie running up to make them scatter out of their scene?

Or those gathering to fight a world boss? There’s limited safe spots near the Tequatl fight thanks to the fish heads.

Afya.5842:

I like heavier influence from different races. Now it’s 99% cosmetic. However I don’t think disease is a good solution to promote that.

Perhaps you’re right. Its hard to know how it would pan out without testing, unfortunately.

I would love for it to work. Unfortunately I seem to be in the minority of people that would see that mechanic as a rewarding aspect and not a punishing one.

People like me would get diseased on purpose and go on a rampage in their home city. That right there is why Guild Wars 2 does not need disease.

Morsus.5106:

People like me would get diseased on purpose and go on a rampage in their home city. That right there is why Guild Wars 2 does not need disease.

You’re not the first to say something like this. Please enlighten me on something, as I’m apparently not getting it, how exactly would you be able to get infected and keep the condition on yourself in a city?

Even talking about getting conditions outside of city zones, please tell me how long you can run around with a normal condition that already exists in this game?

You should probably make sure your reason for disease not being added to the game is even possible before you post it to this thread. Otherwise you’re just a dreaming troll that is taking a moment out of your day to vomit on this subject.

Azhure.1857:

Morsus.5106:

People like me would get diseased on purpose and go on a rampage in their home city. That right there is why Guild Wars 2 does not need disease.

You’re not the first to say something like this. Please enlighten me on something, as I’m apparently not getting it, how exactly would you be able to get infected and keep the condition on yourself in a city?

Even talking about getting conditions outside of city zones, please tell me how long you can run around with a normal condition that already exists in this game?

I figured the condition, since it is disease, would last a long time, like a disease. If it only lasts a couple seconds it’s not really a disease now is it? But of course I could just get a buddy and treat it like the hammer from the Cliffside fractal.

Donari.5237:

Question: Not that I’m a fan of the idea at all, or sure what the point of it is besides zerg busting, but would you consider making it something that cannot spread in cities? Or griefers could go wreck up on people crafting, banking, TP’ing, or RP’ing.

RP happens not only in cities, however. So how do you protect people who are grouped up to socialize and don’t really need a plague zombie running up to make them scatter out of their scene?

Or those gathering to fight a world boss? There’s limited safe spots near the Tequatl fight thanks to the fish heads.

Well from what I understand, the disease wouldn’t be a long lasting condition. (say, 3 minutes max) But if you diseased, you’d still be considered in combat, and not able to WP. Sure you can run from zone to zone, but having it remove upon leaving instance/zone would be a way to keep it contained. Of course you would be able to infect others in that zone, but it wouldn’t cause many problems because even those RPers/random people just hanging out can just wait until they die, cure it, and respawn.

Teq waiting areas? Just don’t have anything that adds disease in that zone. Problem solved.

Morsus.5106:

I figured the condition, since it is disease, would last a long time, like a disease. If it only lasts a couple seconds it’s not really a disease now is it? But of course I could just get a buddy and treat it like the hammer from the Cliffside fractal.

Maybe that’s the problem some posters are having. They’re not familiar with how disease worked in Guild Wars and/or not reading through this thread. No, disease would not be permanent.

As for it not being disease if it only lasts a couple of seconds…. One, you’re being way too literal in a fantasy game. Also how does that not apply to some of the other conditions like Poison, Blind, Burning, Crippled, and so on? We cleanse them in this game and POOF they’re gone. Magic. O.O I can tell you from experience that when you’re burning from flame – the pain does not stop when you remove the fire. Poison takes a long time to fully clear out of your system, even if you’re quick enough to clear it before it does the most damage.

Disease worked in Guild Wars. The question is could it work equally well in Guild Wars 2?

Remove the racial discrimination, have it treated just like other conditions and it should be good (No waypoints, removable just like regular conditions).

pdavis.8031:

Donari.5237:

Question: Not that I’m a fan of the idea at all, or sure what the point of it is besides zerg busting, but would you consider making it something that cannot spread in cities? Or griefers could go wreck up on people crafting, banking, TP’ing, or RP’ing.

RP happens not only in cities, however. So how do you protect people who are grouped up to socialize and don’t really need a plague zombie running up to make them scatter out of their scene?

Or those gathering to fight a world boss? There’s limited safe spots near the Tequatl fight thanks to the fish heads.

Well from what I understand, the disease wouldn’t be a long lasting condition. (say, 3 minutes max) But if you diseased, you’d still be considered in combat, and not able to WP. Sure you can run from zone to zone, but having it remove upon leaving instance/zone would be a way to keep it contained. Of course you would be able to infect others in that zone, but it wouldn’t cause many problems because even those RPers/random people just hanging out can just wait until they die, cure it, and respawn.

Teq waiting areas? Just don’t have anything that adds disease in that zone. Problem solved.

What about people running from other zones though? Teq would still be affected by that.

As soon as one person reaches a group waiting for a world boss with disease, it will likely become next to impossible to fully clear it out before the event starts up.

And what would happen if a living world boss popped up in a disease present zone?

Morsus.

But of course I could just get a buddy and treat it like the hammer from the Cliffside fractal.

Again, if that is your troll-like mind at work, tell me HOW you would stay infected while entering your home city?

pdavis.8031:

Well from what I understand, the disease wouldn’t be a long lasting condition. (say, 3 minutes max) But if you diseased, you’d still be considered in combat, and not able to WP. Sure you can run from zone to zone, but having it remove upon leaving instance/zone would be a way to keep it contained. Of course you would be able to infect others in that zone, but it wouldn’t cause many problems because even those RPers/random people just hanging out can just wait until they die, cure it, and respawn.

Teq waiting areas? Just don’t have anything that adds disease in that zone. Problem solved.

3 minutes is an eternity for conditions in GW2. If someone didn’t cleanse themselves for a full 3 minutes, I’d say they deserve to die and never get up. No matter what profession they are. The only way I would see this condition lasting this long is if it had infected a stacked zerg and was reapplying itself continuously. Even then I don’t know how a zerg would be upright for that long without taking measures to get rid of the condition.

Morsus.5106:

Remove the racial discrimination, have it treated just like other conditions and it should be good (No waypoints, removable just like regular conditions).

It would be removable like any other condition.

The racial bit is the most argued aspect of the condition. If it is the only thing keeping people from actually giving it 2 seconds of thought without fully disqualifying it, then I would be happy to remove the “creatures of same type” effect. Even IF I feel that it would be a wonderful and unique mechanic.

Azhure.1857:

Morsus.

But of course I could just get a buddy and treat it like the hammer from the Cliffside fractal.

Again, if that is your troll-like mind at work, tell me HOW you would stay infected while entering your home city?

I assumed this wouldn’t be treated like a condition, but if that’s not what’s being suggested I can just run around with my buddy in Queensdale or another map tagging groups of players. Or I could suicide in an enemy WvW zerg and watch them all die of it. That would be a really, really, awesome way to die.

Seera.5916:

What about people running from other zones though? Teq would still be affected by that.

As soon as one person reaches a group waiting for a world boss with disease, it will likely become next to impossible to fully clear it out before the event starts up.

And what would happen if a living world boss popped up in a disease present zone?

Heh. Some of you people seem to think this would be an end of the world condition. That it would have so much permanence that you would be able to run long distances and dive into a zerg just to kitten with them. I personally don’t view it as such.

How exactly would it be impossible to clear?

Scatter. Gain distance from others of your race and spread out around the boss or event you’re at. Even if its just to cleanse and heal. For those that DON’T do that. The few that are so stuck on old habits of Zerg-Spam1-Repeat without ever really thinking beyond that… yes…. they may die. I would watch them die with a smile on my face. I know that makes me sound evil in a way… but its where my heart is as at present, in this game.

Morsus.5106:

Azhure.1857:

Morsus.

But of course I could just get a buddy and treat it like the hammer from the Cliffside fractal.

Again, if that is your troll-like mind at work, tell me HOW you would stay infected while entering your home city?

I assumed this wouldn’t be treated like a condition, but if that’s not what’s being suggested I can just run around with my buddy in Queensdale or another map tagging groups of players. Or I could suicide in an enemy WvW zerg and watch them all die of it. That would be a really, really, awesome way to die.

Please read the thread, silly troll. It is being suggested as a condition therefor would be treated as one.

Granted if you had a co-conspirator that would be willing to do that with you – it wouldn’t be easy. Both of you would eventually work yourselves up to a full stack of disease. How could you survive that without having to cleanse it?

Even if you managed to tag me, saying I was the same race as you, what keeps me from rolling away and cleansing? Keep in mind that I could just as easily cleanse the two of you along with myself.

As for the suicide bomber tactic. That was a funny image, ty. I wasn’t really thinking you could transfer it to enemies through proximity, only allies. There are skills/spells for transferring conditions to your enemies. Also only a stupidily passive zerg would die from disease alone. Though if they weren’t quick in addressing the situation – it would contribute to their defeat.

I think the idea sounds pretty interesting for an event or living story chapter. But for a permanent implemented feature, I don’t know…

I can see some problems for those world events like Tequatl or Jormag which can’t be done by 5 people. Even if you were to cleanse most of it you can’t guarantee to cleanse everyone as aoe condition cleansing only hits 5 people too and if one remains contagious he would infect all other players of that race again. Maybe you could implement a buff that makes you immune to disease for a duration of time after being cleansed.
And another problem might be that players who just want to level up their characters or are new don’t use condition cleansing in normal map exploration so they’d die of disease as they can’t switch skills while infected or are forced to sacrifice some other skill for condition cleansing as traits are no option most of the time.

Otherwise i think that it is a pretty exciting idea and definitely worth trying.

Azhure.1857:

As for the suicide bomber tactic. That was a funny image, ty. I wasn’t really thinking you could transfer it to enemies through proximity, only allies.

If I can’t transfer to enemy players, I’m 100% against this. Normally I’m totally against trolling but if GW2 introduces suicide bombing I will be doing it all day.

(Sorry for the double post) I think if the unrezzed body of an NPC or player waits is there for more than about 10 minutes it should give disease to everyone that comes near it. Every additional 10 minutes it waits there generates another stack.

Seera.5916:

pdavis.8031:

Donari.5237:

Question: Not that I’m a fan of the idea at all, or sure what the point of it is besides zerg busting, but would you consider making it something that cannot spread in cities? Or griefers could go wreck up on people crafting, banking, TP’ing, or RP’ing.

RP happens not only in cities, however. So how do you protect people who are grouped up to socialize and don’t really need a plague zombie running up to make them scatter out of their scene?

Or those gathering to fight a world boss? There’s limited safe spots near the Tequatl fight thanks to the fish heads.

Well from what I understand, the disease wouldn’t be a long lasting condition. (say, 3 minutes max) But if you diseased, you’d still be considered in combat, and not able to WP. Sure you can run from zone to zone, but having it remove upon leaving instance/zone would be a way to keep it contained. Of course you would be able to infect others in that zone, but it wouldn’t cause many problems because even those RPers/random people just hanging out can just wait until they die, cure it, and respawn.

Teq waiting areas? Just don’t have anything that adds disease in that zone. Problem solved.

What about people running from other zones though? Teq would still be affected by that.

As soon as one person reaches a group waiting for a world boss with disease, it will likely become next to impossible to fully clear it out before the event starts up.

And what would happen if a living world boss popped up in a disease present zone?

As I said in my post, it is removed upon leaving the zone, thus keeping it contained in that zone. There is no way for it to leave. You jump to WvW, or PvP? Guess what? disease cleansed. So that wouldn’t even be an issue.

Azhure.1857:

pdavis.8031:

Well from what I understand, the disease wouldn’t be a long lasting condition. (say, 3 minutes max) But if you diseased, you’d still be considered in combat, and not able to WP. Sure you can run from zone to zone, but having it remove upon leaving instance/zone would be a way to keep it contained. Of course you would be able to infect others in that zone, but it wouldn’t cause many problems because even those RPers/random people just hanging out can just wait until they die, cure it, and respawn.

Teq waiting areas? Just don’t have anything that adds disease in that zone. Problem solved.

3 minutes is an eternity for conditions in GW2. If someone didn’t cleanse themselves for a full 3 minutes, I’d say they deserve to die and never get up. No matter what profession they are. The only way I would see this condition lasting this long is if it had infected a stacked zerg and was reapplying itself continuously. Even then I don’t know how a zerg would be upright for that long without taking measures to get rid of the condition.

I agree, I just threw out an arbitrary time. But even if it was such a limit, it doesn’t have to be DoT.Maybe like the way the cold works in the blizzard fractal. You get stacks of cold on you and it slows you down, reduces damage etc. BUT too many stacks and you die type of thing.

Holy crap, I was just thinking that this should make a come back! Yes please!

Morsus.5106:

(Sorry for the double post) I think if the unrezzed body of an NPC or player waits is there for more than about 10 minutes it should give disease to everyone that comes near it. Every additional 10 minutes it waits there generates another stack.

LOL!
You know I was thinking something similar actually, but 1 minute instead of 10 minutes. But I’m already at a point where the majority of people posting are either not sure about the ability for good balance in this condition or are just flat out against it entirely…. so suggesting something more like that would be over the top.

Azhure.1857:

Morsus.5106:

(Sorry for the double post) I think if the unrezzed body of an NPC or player waits is there for more than about 10 minutes it should give disease to everyone that comes near it. Every additional 10 minutes it waits there generates another stack.

LOL!
You know I was thinking something similar actually, but 1 minute instead of 10 minutes. But I’m already at a point where the majority of people posting are either not sure about the ability for good balance in this condition or are just flat out against it entirely…. so suggesting something more like that would be over the top.

I originally had written a minute, but realized a good percent of people who go downed during a world boss don’t get up and with a maximum of 14 minutes of constantly spewing out disease? Sure, it might make us res them, but can you imagine what would happen if we all wiped because they didn’t have 2 silver to waypoint? I suppose since this will never be able to be balanced I’ll just stop trying though haha.

pdavis.8031:

I agree, I just threw out an arbitrary time. But even if it was such a limit, it doesn’t have to be DoT.Maybe like the way the cold works in the blizzard fractal. You get stacks of cold on you and it slows you down, reduces damage etc. BUT too many stacks and you die type of thing.

Hmmm…

I don’t like the idea of a diseased variant of chill, especially when I want people to scatter with this one. Chill would hamper the ability for zergs to spread out. However the “reduce damage” effect could be worthwhile, if disease weren’t DoT. Or a combo of the two?

Again whether people agree with the need to address passive zerg gameplay or not, I find the idea of forcing people to play actively and in the moment to be an ideal worth striving towards. Even if it isn’t met by my suggestion – I’d like to eventually see improvement in current combat/game mechanics to a point where people can’t be rewarded for mindlessly zerging while doing other things (console gaming, making dinner, watching tv, etc etc).

Morsus.5106:

Azhure.1857:

Morsus.5106:

(Sorry for the double post) I think if the unrezzed body of an NPC or player waits is there for more than about 10 minutes it should give disease to everyone that comes near it. Every additional 10 minutes it waits there generates another stack.

LOL!
You know I was thinking something similar actually, but 1 minute instead of 10 minutes. But I’m already at a point where the majority of people posting are either not sure about the ability for good balance in this condition or are just flat out against it entirely…. so suggesting something more like that would be over the top.

I originally had written a minute, but realized a good percent of people who go downed during a world boss don’t get up and with a maximum of 14 minutes of constantly spewing out disease? Sure, it might make us res them, but can you imagine what would happen if we all wiped because they didn’t have 2 silver to waypoint? I suppose since this will never be able to be balanced I’ll just stop trying though haha.

Heh. The one time I didn’t have enough money to waypoint after being killed in Orr was because I had given ALL of my resources to getting a friend a precursor. I was flat out broke. I laughed uncontrollably when I realized it too. It was the greatest thing in a long time.

Realistically though… There is no way anyone can get me to believe that the bodies that pile up at certain events are there because the players can’t afford to waypoint. They’re there because they choose not to waypoint, not that they can’t. Usually with the mindset of:

“I tapped, I died, others will conquer for me.”

I would agree that any idea like making minute corpses spread disease would face far stronger opposition than the idea of disease alone. But imagine all those people possibly choosing not to die, or if they do die to waypoint immediately, because otherwise they would greatly affect the ability for everyone to complete the event? Not saying its fair. It wouldn’t be. If a large group of people failed an event because the area around the world boss was LITERALLY too toxic to be near and NOBODY got a reward – it would be devastating for many. Even if it were only bad enough to prolong the fight long enough that the people there wouldn’t be able to make the next boss in their Megazerg Train schedule… that would leave an impression.

But as far as fairness goes…. its also not fair for people to body slam/tap a boss, die, and still get equal rewards as the people that actively contributed throughout the entire fight.

However that would just be a dream of a dream… as disease alone seems to be making waves just with a suggestion.

There are already plenty ways to spam AoE condition application and plenty of things doing it. Doesn’t feel like the game needs more. A spreadable condition has a similar problem to the marionette fight in that a single person can easily screw things up for an arbitrarily large group of other people.

Azhure.1857:

pdavis.8031:

I agree, I just threw out an arbitrary time. But even if it was such a limit, it doesn’t have to be DoT.Maybe like the way the cold works in the blizzard fractal. You get stacks of cold on you and it slows you down, reduces damage etc. BUT too many stacks and you die type of thing.

Hmmm…

I don’t like the idea of a diseased variant of chill, especially when I want people to scatter with this one. Chill would hamper the ability for zergs to spread out. However the “reduce damage” effect could be worthwhile, if disease weren’t DoT. Or a combo of the two?

Again whether people agree with the need to address passive zerg gameplay or not, I find the idea of forcing people to play actively and in the moment to be an ideal worth striving towards. Even if it isn’t met by my suggestion – I’d like to eventually see improvement in current combat/game mechanics to a point where people can’t be rewarded for mindlessly zerging while doing other things (console gaming, making dinner, watching tv, etc etc).

Again, the chill effect was an example. So maybe instead of chill, it decreases vitality and power, the more stacks the more vitality and power lost. Say at 10 stacks it has a chance to cause daze when using movment skills (to reflect being weakend by the disease.) And then at 25 stacks you die. If killed by disease, players rezzing you have a say 30% chance of catching the disease for say 5 min after death. Also instead of proximity to a diseased person it causes spreading, every time a diseased person uses a group boon skill, or group buffing skill (I.e. warrior shouts, necros well of power, etc.) It causes those effected by the boon/buff to contract the disease.

Khisanth.2948:

There are already plenty ways to spam AoE condition application and plenty of things doing it. Doesn’t feel like the game needs more.

Maybe.
Maybe not.
I would prefer the devs to play around with this in testing to see how it would actually work in GW2 and have them make that call.
But I have a question for you.
Hypothetically speaking – If Poison were not in the game. Yet I was here suggesting we add such a condition like Poison, do you think you would say the exact same thing?

Khisanth.2948:

A spreadable condition has a similar problem to the marionette fight in that a single person can easily screw things up for an arbitrarily large group of other people.

By screw things up do you mean 1) Force the zerg to take measures to clear the condition or 2) Kill half of said zerg because they aren’t even paying much attention to the game?
I’m sure you’re not surprised that I’m not a zerg-sympathizer.

Happy Fourth of July, everyone!

pdavis.8031:

Again, the chill effect was an example. So maybe instead of chill, it decreases vitality and power, the more stacks the more vitality and power lost. Say at 10 stacks it has a chance to cause daze when using movment skills (to reflect being weakend by the disease.) And then at 25 stacks you die. If killed by disease, players rezzing you have a say 30% chance of catching the disease for say 5 min after death. Also instead of proximity to a diseased person it causes spreading, every time a diseased person uses a group boon skill, or group buffing skill (I.e. warrior shouts, necros well of power, etc.) It causes those effected by the boon/buff to contract the disease.

Whew. * whistles * That seems rather complicated for a condition. Its almost like a rune-stat setup you have going there with the cumulative but differing effects that would hit players based on stack level.

I like how you’re thinking outside of the box.

pdavis.8031:

Azhure.1857:

pdavis.8031:

I agree, I just threw out an arbitrary time. But even if it was such a limit, it doesn’t have to be DoT.Maybe like the way the cold works in the blizzard fractal. You get stacks of cold on you and it slows you down, reduces damage etc. BUT too many stacks and you die type of thing.

Hmmm…

I don’t like the idea of a diseased variant of chill, especially when I want people to scatter with this one. Chill would hamper the ability for zergs to spread out. However the “reduce damage” effect could be worthwhile, if disease weren’t DoT. Or a combo of the two?

Again whether people agree with the need to address passive zerg gameplay or not, I find the idea of forcing people to play actively and in the moment to be an ideal worth striving towards. Even if it isn’t met by my suggestion – I’d like to eventually see improvement in current combat/game mechanics to a point where people can’t be rewarded for mindlessly zerging while doing other things (console gaming, making dinner, watching tv, etc etc).

Again, the chill effect was an example. So maybe instead of chill, it decreases vitality and power, the more stacks the more vitality and power lost. Say at 10 stacks it has a chance to cause daze when using movment skills (to reflect being weakend by the disease.) And then at 25 stacks you die. If killed by disease, players rezzing you have a say 30% chance of catching the disease for say 5 min after death. Also instead of proximity to a diseased person it causes spreading, every time a diseased person uses a group boon skill, or group buffing skill (I.e. warrior shouts, necros well of power, etc.) It causes those effected by the boon/buff to contract the disease.

And maybe reduce healing effectiveness. Reduce the support build WvW players from healing everyone as effectively.

With all due respect, the whole condition system is already a point of discussion. I wouldn’t want to see any new conditions added. There are already 12 to deal with (not inclusing CCs like daze/stun).

Azhure.1857:

Khisanth.2948:

There are already plenty ways to spam AoE condition application and plenty of things doing it. Doesn’t feel like the game needs more.

Maybe.
Maybe not.
I would prefer the devs to play around with this in testing to see how it would actually work in GW2 and have them make that call.
But I have a question for you.
Hypothetically speaking – If Poison were not in the game. Yet I was here suggesting we add such a condition like Poison, do you think you would say the exact same thing?

Except poison is here. There are also AoEs for applying every other condition in the game. If the game had no conditions/DoT at all then you may have a point.

Khisanth.2948:

A spreadable condition has a similar problem to the marionette fight in that a single person can easily screw things up for an arbitrarily large group of other people.

By screw things up do you mean 1) Force the zerg to take measures to clear the condition or 2) Kill half of said zerg because they aren’t even paying much attention to the game?
I’m sure you’re not surprised that I’m not a zerg-sympathizer.

Happy Fourth of July, everyone!

uh no.
Reduce this to the simplest scenario. Lets just have 2 people standing next to each other.
1) we both get hit by the attack that applies disease
2) I use a condition removal the other guy doesn’t(there could be a number of reasons for this)
3) 1 tick pass now that other guy decides to use a condition removal, now I have the condition and he doesn’t
4) another tick pass now both of us have disease again as if neither of us did anything because I just passed it back to him again

This won’t happen all the time but every additional person will increase the chance of it happening. It would only take 3 ticks to spread to 125 people depending on range.

In a two person situation you could just move away from each other. That is unless you are both melee.

Expanding on 2) they might not be removing it because
a) there is the obvious griefing mentioned already
b) skill is on cooldown (considering how easy it would be for it to spread how many condition removal skills do you expect people to carry?)
c) it is not always a good idea to remove a condition as soon as it is applied to you depending on build and what is applying it
d) the person doesn’t know how to remove conditions. this might seem silly but if there are people who don’t know how to dodge or set their traits then not knowing how to remove conditions isn’t too far fetched.

I am under the impression that conditions are already very strong in WvW, not something that needs buffing. There is also a huge imbalance between the cost of a skill that can apply this and the potential benefits. Even if it killed the user on activation that is still sacrificing one person while potentially attacking the entire opposing team. An army of one doesn’t seem like a great balance move.

Khisanth.2948:

Azhure.1857:

But I have a question for you.
Hypothetically speaking – If Poison were not in the game. Yet I was here suggesting we add such a condition like Poison, do you think you would say the exact same thing?

Except poison is here. There are also AoEs for applying every other condition in the game. If the game had no conditions/DoT at all then you may have a point.

Your concerns are valid, Khisanth. As are the concerns that others have mentioned. However you evaded my actual question. I don’t know if its because the answer may rattle your argument against disease or if you are unable to take a step back and actually consider the question for what its worth.

Fear of the unknown is still fear – and I would not want it blocking any potential progress in this game.

After further consideration, I’m gonna have to stand against this. Conditions in this game are screwed up enough as it is. Let’s not make it any worse.

Khisanth.2948:

Azhure.1857:

By screw things up do you mean 1) Force the zerg to take measures to clear the condition or 2) Kill half of said zerg because they aren’t even paying much attention to the game?

uh no.
Reduce this to the simplest scenario. Lets just have 2 people standing next to each other.
1) we both get hit by the attack that applies disease
2) I use a condition removal the other guy doesn’t(there could be a number of reasons for this)
3) 1 tick pass now that other guy decides to use a condition removal, now I have the condition and he doesn’t
4) another tick pass now both of us have disease again as if neither of us did anything because I just passed it back to him again

This won’t happen all the time but every additional person will increase the chance of it happening. It would only take 3 ticks to spread to 125 people depending on range.

In a two person situation you could just move away from each other. That is unless you are both melee.

In your simple scenario are you all permanently immobilized? Also melee =/= the inability to scatter.

Khisanth.2948:

Expanding on 2) they might not be removing it because
a) there is the obvious griefing mentioned already
b) skill is on cooldown (considering how easy it would be for it to spread how many condition removal skills do you expect people to carry?)
c) it is not always a good idea to remove a condition as soon as it is applied to you depending on build and what is applying it

Yes, griefers will always do what they do best. That is the world we live in.
I would expect players to carry what they feel they need in a given situation.

Khisanth.2948:

d) the person doesn’t know how to remove conditions. this might seem silly but if there are people who don’t know how to dodge or set their traits then not knowing how to remove conditions isn’t too far fetched.

It is somewhat silly, yes. More sad than anything. But if we were to never change the game by adding things or removing things based on how that population of players would be affected…. that would be the worst offense. Without adequate tutorials it is up to each individual to learn the game and combat mechanics of this game.

I feel for them only a little. As months into this game, after launch, I was still learning game mechanics. It was a stumble and fall, LEARN, then get back up approach.

We can’t be expected to nurture ignorance for all time.

Khisanth.2948:

I am under the impression that conditions are already very strong in WvW, not something that needs buffing. There is also a huge imbalance between the cost of a skill that can apply this and the potential benefits. Even if it killed the user on activation that is still sacrificing one person while potentially attacking the entire opposing team. An army of one doesn’t seem like a great balance move.

That army of one’s strength is measured in how the enemy responds, not the caster himself/herself. Current conditions are good, you’re right. However nothing, and I truly mean nothing, is an effective counter to blobs/zergs. You could say it has no natural predator. To me THAT reeks of imbalance.

Morsus.5106:

After further consideration, I’m gonna have to stand against this. Conditions in this game are screwed up enough as it is. Let’s not make it any worse.

Thanks for being a part of the discussion, Morsus.

If implemented, disease should apply to allies without any racial restriction. I think making race a cosmetic choice instead of a significant functional choice is a good decision and that should remain. It’s not good to interfere with the fashion game.

Also, I would only support its addition in some hypothetical game mode that allowed friendly fire. The ability to punish diseased players/griefers that fail to cleanse disease would add interesting gameplay.

Otherwise, disease would add very little in the way of interesting gameplay (there’s already plenty of AoE degen) but would result in annoying griefing.

voidwater.2064:

If implemented, disease should apply to allies without any racial restriction. I think making race a cosmetic choice instead of a significant functional choice is a good decision and than should remain. It’s not good to interfere with the fashion game.

Yes, race is currently only a cosmetic choice. However there are certain races that are receiving far more attention from the devs that others are. Inequality already exists because of admitted laziness. Race treatment equality already = work, effort by the devs. Too much apparently.

As for the racial effect on disease. If you consider how its being applied throughout a closely stacked group of people – the racial effect would help to keep it from going entirely out of control. If there was no racial effect, it would be like greek fire spreading throughout a static zerg in an impressive time. Stacking on itself quickly too. The racial effects potential protection against disease is greater than the possibly discrimination that may come of its implementation.

voidwater.2064:

Also, I would only support its addition in some hypothetical game mode that allowed friendly fire. The ability to punish diseased players/griefers that fail to cleanse disease would add interesting gameplay.

Otherwise, disease would add very little in the way of interesting gameplay (there’s already plenty of AoE degen) but would result in annoying griefing.

Griefers have been brought up a few times in this thread. I do not discount it, hell I even added it to the CONS list because I understand its validity. But I don’t see how it would be possible for a griefer, or duo of griefers, to stay alive long term while diseased. In a sense…. they would kill themselves in their continued efforts to troll other players.

We, as the other players, could heal/cleanse and then sit on their faces after they die.

Azhure.1857:

Khisanth.2948:

uh no.
Reduce this to the simplest scenario. Lets just have 2 people standing next to each other.
1) we both get hit by the attack that applies disease
2) I use a condition removal the other guy doesn’t(there could be a number of reasons for this)
3) 1 tick pass now that other guy decides to use a condition removal, now I have the condition and he doesn’t
4) another tick pass now both of us have disease again as if neither of us did anything because I just passed it back to him again

This won’t happen all the time but every additional person will increase the chance of it happening. It would only take 3 ticks to spread to 125 people depending on range.

In a two person situation you could just move away from each other. That is unless you are both melee.

In your simple scenario are you all permanently immobilized? Also melee =/= the inability to scatter.

So the radius it would spread to is small enough that two people with melee weapons can be within melee range of the boss (and therefore high chance of being right on top of each other) and not get hit? Just sounds like something that will make the zerg cover a larger footprint to me.

A lot of melee attacks require you to be pretty close to the boss. Meaning you’re likely to be within the range of the disease spreading if more than one person is melee. So if you and your buddy who happens to be playing on the same race as you are fighting a boss that gives disease gives it out and both of you are melee. You clear yours. His is on cool down. You both jump in to attack at the same time and the condition ticks. You’ve got the disease again. Even though in between attacks you maintain maximum distance between the two of you. So while melee doesn’t mean people can’t scatter. It does mean that a lot of the times they will be right on top of each other due to the fact that they have to be right on top of the boss to actually hit the boss. And typically do go right on top of the boss to do so.

And unless enemies gave disease to everyone (but you can only spread it to those of the same race as you), I’m opposed to race specific diseases. It will only cause further discrimination in the dungeons based on what diseases are given out.

Based on what diseases are given out? …….Huh?

Anyways… to your point on melee combat. Yes, melee range would be considered “nearby” for sure and could be hit by disease. If of the same race(s) as those already infected. Even if you’re talking about someone’s cleanse skill being on cooldown – not all condition cleansing skills are limited to cleansing self. There are condition clearing skills/spells that hit allies. There are also combo fields.

I don’t know, maybe its asking too much for us to learn how to use them over might stacking?

Azhure.1857:

voidwater.2064:

If implemented, disease should apply to allies without any racial restriction. I think making race a cosmetic choice instead of a significant functional choice is a good decision and than should remain. It’s not good to interfere with the fashion game.

Yes, race is currently only a cosmetic choice. However there are certain races that are receiving far more attention from the devs that others are. Inequality already exists because of admitted laziness. Race treatment equality already = work, effort by the devs. Too much apparently.

1. Yes, it’s currently a cosmetic choice, and it’d be terrible design, very annoying, to suddenly make that choice have a significant functional impact. I am not going to reroll any characters, or switch characters because the party just happened to have some mix of races.

2. You are wildly exaggerating if you say the races are very unequal right now, racial skills are weak and there is little functional difference between the races. If you mean some minor stuff like armor clipping, that’s not relevant in any functional sense.

Azhure.1857:

As for the racial effect on disease. If you consider how its being applied throughout a closely stacked group of people – the racial effect would help to keep it from going entirely out of control. If there was no racial effect, it would be like greek fire spreading throughout a static zerg in an impressive time. Stacking on itself quickly too. The racial effects potential protection against disease is greater than the possibly discrimination that may come of its implementation.

You could also simply set the disease transfer chance to something like 20-35% to limit the spread, instead of introducing mechanics that depend on some arbitrary cosmetic choice.

The race dependency is just bad, it may sound like an interesting concept, but it would just be arbitrary and annoying in practice. I do not want any reward/punishment for my personal aesthetic, it properly stands alone.

It’d be like putting in some condition that only harms people that use specific dye colors, or an anti-male/female condition. Why do you care about the racial distribution? It honestly sounds like you just want to punish people for choosing popular races (e.g. humans).

Azhure.1857:

Griefers have been brought up a few times in this thread. I do not discount it, hell I even added it to the CONS list because I understand its validity. But I don’t see how it would be possible for a griefer, or duo of griefers, to stay alive long term while diseased.

I’m looking at this from a “fun” cost/benefit perspective:

Disease does not really add that much fun or interesting gameplay.

• From the disease caster’s perspective, disease would just be another “Best used against groups” damage action.
• From the receiver’s perspective, it’s just another degen condition, it’s less harmful than something like chill or weakness, counter it with healing, regen, aoe cleanse (which happens very often in zergs). I think the “stay a distance from allies or use aoe cleanse” counter mechanic is not as deep or interesting as you present it to be.

I consider it just some “flavor”. Low benefits. I’d rather see the developers spend resources on new WvW maps, new weapons, skills and traits that create new types of builds, new classes, rather than spending resources trying to balance yet another degen condition.

What are the costs? They are not insignificant, but not catastrophic either. The griefing doesn’t have to be continued to be annoying.

Azhure.1857:

In a sense…. they would kill themselves in their continued efforts to troll other players.

If they manage to maliciously infect allies before dying, they have succeeded in griefing. Also, if the disease condition is strong enough to overpower the griefer’s healing and kill them, then it can also do tremendous damage to the griefer’s victims.This is not fun.

Azhure.1857:

We, as the other players, could heal/cleanse and then sit on their faces after they die.

That’s not satisfying at all, only their death by my hands is appropriate.

Also, I have to react to their dumb actions and waste skills. Thus, I have been griefed. This is not fun. I would be annoyed.

In a friendly fire setting, the real potential for revenge/punishment would balance things out. Also, you could do something interesting like design disease in such a way that it’d be sometimes beneficial to kill the diseased ally and sometimes beneficial to try to cure them (disease would be fairly strong and non-trivial to cleanse, in this example)

So I don’t support disease being added. I don’t think it’s beneficial in terms of “fun”, nor is it a good use of developer resources at this point.

The experience I’ll like to take from a disease mechanic is creating encounters that promote tatical thinking. Rather than DPSing as hard as you can.
Disease doesn’t even have to damage you, but rather be the trigger for something else to hinder you.

If you have disease on you, you may pass it on to others. If you are – in an area/hit with a type of skill/had poison, weakness etc applied to you – and you had disease, chill is also applied, say.
Maybe the undead minions hit harder with disease. Maybe a strategy is to have disease on you as a good souce for condition transfers. Taking the bad to be a benefit? Keep away from your deseased team? Maybe they won’t survive without your support and you without theirs.

The see reason the GW1 disease was ‘same race’ was so you can apply it to, say, the Centar foe and it’ll spread between them and not you.

Azhure.1857:

Based on what diseases are given out? …….Huh?

Anyways… to your point on melee combat. Yes, melee range would be considered “nearby” for sure and could be hit by disease. If of the same race(s) as those already infected. Even if you’re talking about someone’s cleanse skill being on cooldown – not all condition cleansing skills are limited to cleansing self. There are condition clearing skills/spells that hit allies. There are also combo fields.

I don’t know, maybe its asking too much for us to learn how to use them over might stacking?

If Boss A in dungeon 1 path Z gives off Asuran disease, then those doing that dungeon and path will have another requirement in their LFG: No Asura. So that they can continue to stack without worry and don’t have to worry about any DPS loss.

Seera.5916:

Azhure.1857:

Based on what diseases are given out? …….Huh?

Anyways… to your point on melee combat. Yes, melee range would be considered “nearby” for sure and could be hit by disease. If of the same race(s) as those already infected. Even if you’re talking about someone’s cleanse skill being on cooldown – not all condition cleansing skills are limited to cleansing self. There are condition clearing skills/spells that hit allies. There are also combo fields.

I don’t know, maybe its asking too much for us to learn how to use them over might stacking?

If Boss A in dungeon 1 path Z gives off Asuran disease, then those doing that dungeon and path will have another requirement in their LFG: No Asura. So that they can continue to stack without worry and don’t have to worry about any DPS loss.

Oh no…. You misunderstand what I have been suggesting. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear, Seera.
Disease is one condition. It wouldn’t be 5 separate conditions. It only becomes racial based on who it hits, either in single target or AoE. So if I were to cast an AoE skill and it hits a Norn and two Charr – then Norn and Charr may or may not get hit by disease from the first three individuals that were infected.
Kitten…. I hope others didn’t think that too. * grimace *