Guild Wars 2

“You heard Grast. hold th- You heard Grast- You heard- You- You-” – Kohler

Well, I’m a dirty achievment hunter. Shame or not, I am. I think of achievments as challanges, thus face them, even the most boring ones, and try to complete them. However there are some of them, that are just over the top, and are doing more harm than good to the game (imo) and my mental health.

Think previosly of Burning 50 effigies (Dragon bash) or the still not fixed WvW achieivements (might do a different thread on that).

Well with that introduction let’s see what I have a gripe with.

Recently Collection achievments have been introduced, for dungeon sets as well. And that’s fine and dandy, why not award players for completing the whole set. But did anyone bother to calculate how much tokens, time, and effort this takes?

I did. For a total set, you need 9990 tokens. 9990. Neunundneunzig luftballons. For an average dungoen run, you are gonna get 60 tokens + 9 from bosses, so that’s 69 tokens. that means you gotta run the same dungoen 145 times to complete it. A total 1160 runs for all the dungeons. Most people in most dungeons don’t even run all paths, cause some take twice as long as others, but even if you ran all 3, that’s still 48 runs each path.

Do you think that’s enough? It’s like a torture, repeating the same old boring content over and over and over and over again, until your brain starts to melt, and drips out your ear.

My suggestion(s) would be the following:

- Suggestion 1: Simply up the dungeon token rewards by around 20 – this would reduce the number of times needed to run to 113 (for 1 dungoen). Still awful, but a bit better.

- Suggestion 2: Up the dungeon tokens you recieve from bosses in pouches* – they always have 3 tokens isnide, could be 3 + 1 to 5 randomly. By the way what’s even the point of having these, why not just give the tokens whitout the pouches?

- Suggestion 3: Add extra things that rewards you with more tokens. For instance, slaying every champion on AC paths (including troll) awards you with +20 tokens at the end, or completing AC paths under 10 minutes gives you extra 10 tokens, or no one downing at the last boss gives you +5 tokens, or doing Giganticus Lupicus on the first try gives you +5 tokens. Something unique for each dungoen. This could be done in the same manner as Dry Top is at the moment – Bonus if xy is completed/not lost etc..

- Suggestion 4: At the end of the dungeons, you could choose if instead of the gold reward you would prefer token rewards: for every 50 silvers worth of money, you could choose 10 tokens instead. Eg.: at the end of CoF p1 you could choose +20 tokens instead of the 1 g.

Well. That’s about it. I can already see the counterarguments coming, so let me eliminate some of them in advance.

Counterarguments by Angry Forum Members:

AFM: It’s an achievment. You should suffer for trying to do it.
Me: No you shouldn’t. There is a difference between reasonable, and just plain boring, frustrating. After your 40th run on the same path you just want to quit the game alltogether.

AFM: You have OCD you don’t have to do achievments.
Me: After 2 and a half years in game, there is nothing else left to do.

AFM: Well, you are a scrub. Just go PvP and get the rewards man, dude, daddi-o, 1v1 me.
Me: Yes, I could do that. But: 1. There is only 1 dungeon track available at any given time (for what reason?). 2. Doing a full track is ~50 matches (so I’m probably better off just doing the dungeon). 3. Probably a good precentage of PvE players will never set foot in PvP.

AFM: Well your lazy, pathetic, weak, milquetoast suggestion will just let everyone get exotics quickly.
Me: Yes. And does it matter? I mean it costs like what, 10 g for a full exo gear? You can farm that under 2 hours anyway.

AFM: Well I don’t care. I did PvP before wardrobe, and thus I have most things unlocked, I’m done with 5 dungoen collections already. So “hah!” in your face!
Me: Good for you. Now think of the people that weren’t so lucky. Now think of new players.

I think that about covers it. Thank you for taking time to read.

Bubi.7942:

Me: Yes, I could do that. But: 1. There is only 1 dungeon track available at any given time (for what reason?). 2. Doing a full track is ~50 matches (so I’m probably better off just doing the dungeon). 3. Probably a good precentage of PvE players will never set foot in PvP.

1. Slightly incorrect, unless you mean you can only work on one track at a time, as long as you have completed the story mode you can work on whichever track you want as long or often as you want.

3. Not sure about that with the entire cap on progression for hotjoin. I think they were worried about having a second age of PvP farming. Secondly without ‘PVE players’ at least occasionally doing the sPvP/tPvP it will probably continue to decay until the developers can no longer hold onto their pipe dream of e-sport glory.

Bubi.7942:

AFM: Well, you are a scrub. Just go PvP and get the rewards man, dude, daddi-o, 1v1 me.
Me: Yes, I could do that. But: 1. There is only 1 dungeon track available at any given time (for what reason?). 2. Doing a full track is ~50 matches (so I’m probably better off just doing the dungeon). 3. Probably a good precentage of PvE players will never set foot in PvP.

Well now I’m really mad at you because you don’t know the basic mechanics of the reward track system. If you do the story mode dungeon you’ll unlock the related reward track and it’ll be available permanently. You could look a little more thoroughly into the things you’re complaining about than not at all.

@Bran, Sarrs:

I’m pretty sure I’ve done all story mode and only have 1 track unlocked, but will look into it, maybe there’s some option I’m missing? Afaik I can’t even scroll down the tracks.

All in all, doesn’t change much.

I had no idea it was so bad! I’ve been working on it since collections came out (really, since the wardrobe patch) and have developed a new appreciation for hotw p2 and p3, and reaffirmed that I don’t like pvp.

It did start to get boring, so I stopped for awhile, then switched class. Done three, making good progress on three more, kind of lagging on the last two cause they aren’t my favorites but I wouldn’t call it torture. Probably be done within the next month or so, unless I take another break from it. So yeah it’s taking a long time, so what? Just take a break if you get bored. Do something else, you’ll get it eventually.

I’d be happy to see more tokens too, but if ANet doesn’t retroactively reward tokens to veteran dungeoneers (which they won’t) it’ll probably generate a lot more toxicity than necessary. Also it’ll cause a lot more dungeon exotics to be generated as mystic toilet fodder, which I don’t think ANet will like either given the adjusted the toilet’s results to produce lower-than-average-level results (presumably to reduce the number of “good” exotics being put onto the market).

All I can suggest to people who have this long grind ahead of them is not to focus on the long term goal, just concentrate on a skin at a time, and try to supplement it with some dungeon tracks (three matches a day at least, which will also net a little AP from the daily achievements as well).

Bubi.7942:

@Bran, Sarrs:

I’m pretty sure I’ve done all story mode and only have 1 track unlocked, but will look into it, maybe there’s some option I’m missing? Afaik I can’t even scroll down the tracks.

All in all, doesn’t change much.

You had to do the story after April patch to unlock the track (yeah, so funny redoing all stories… Arah is still waiting though)

BTW, PvP + usual runs are the best way to unlock stuff. A reward track in pvp gives you 3 weapons and 1 armor piece (I can’t understand why it’s this way, as weapons are more expensive than single armor pieces, but w/e), plus a bit of tokens. Still a long way, but I think they are designed this way to keep people playing the game.

Yeah, something about the setup of achievements like these just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Seems they favor people who already would have been close to finishing them before they were released and leave the rest with an absurd number of staggeringly dull goals to complete.

I liked the collections system when I first heard about it. But after seeing stuff like: “Use Ascalonian Tears from Ascalonian Catacombs to unlock all 37 weapon and armor skins in your wardrobe.” I’m just like… wow, doesn’t look nearly as appealing as it sounded.

At a certain point, it just feels like, “Why would anyone in their right mind bother to unlock all of those skins for any reason other than completing the achievement?” I’m a bit obsessed with unlocking skins myself and I would probably stop at about 3-5 weapons that are really appealing to me.

When a fun concept turns into daunting tedium, you know there’s a problem. I don’t understand why collections like that don’t just ask for you to collect one set of armor and something like 5 different weapons. It’s not like the achievement is giving out super amazing rewards anyway – I mean, a box and 1 achievement point? Talk about disparity between effort and reward.

Bubi.7942:

“You heard Grast. hold th- You heard Grast- You heard- You- You-” – Kohler

Well, I’m a dirty achievment hunter. Shame or not, I am. I think of achievments as challanges, thus face them, even the most boring ones, and try to complete them. However there are some of them, that are just over the top, and are doing more harm than good to the game (imo) and my mental health.

Think previosly of Burning 50 effigies (Dragon bash) or the still not fixed WvW achieivements (might do a different thread on that).

Well with that introduction let’s see what I have a gripe with.

Recently Collection achievments have been introduced, for dungeon sets as well. And that’s fine and dandy, why not award players for completing the whole set. But did anyone bother to calculate how much tokens, time, and effort this takes?

I did. For a total set, you need 9990 tokens. 9990. Neunundneunzig luftballons. For an average dungoen run, you are gonna get 60 tokens + 9 from bosses, so that’s 69 tokens. that means you gotta run the same dungoen 145 times to complete it. A total 1160 runs for all the dungeons. Most people in most dungeons don’t even run all paths, cause some take twice as long as others, but even if you ran all 3, that’s still 48 runs each path.

Do you think that’s enough? It’s like a torture, repeating the same old boring content over and over and over and over again, until your brain starts to melt, and drips out your ear.

My suggestion(s) would be the following:

- Simply up the dungeon token rewards by around 20 – this would reduce the number of times needed to run to 113 (for 1 dungoen). Still awful, but a bit better.

- Up the dungeon tokens you recieve from bosses in pouches – they always have 3 tokens isnide, could be 3 + 1 to 5 randomly. By the way what’s even the point of having these, why not just give the tokens whitout the pouches?

- Add extra things that rewards you with more tokens. For instance, slaying every champion on AC paths (including troll) awards you with +20 tokens at the end, or completing AC paths under 10 minutes gives you extra 10 tokens, or no one downing at the last boss gives you +5 tokens, or doing Giganticus Lupicus on the first try gives you +5 tokens. Something unique for each dungoen. This could be done in the same manner as Dry Top is at the moment – Bonus if xy is completed/not lost etc..

Well. That’s about it. I can already see the counterarguments coming, so let me eliminate some of them in advance.

Counterarguments by Angry Forum Members:

AFM: It’s an achievment. You should suffer for trying to do it.
Me: No you shouldn’t. There is a difference between reasonable, and just plain boring, frustrating. After your 40th run on the same path you just want to quit the game alltogether.

AFM: You have OCD you don’t have to do achievments.
Me: After 2 and a half years in game, there is nothing else left to do.

AFM: Well, you are a scrub. Just go PvP and get the rewards man, dude, daddi-o, 1v1 me.
Me: Yes, I could do that. But: 1. There is only 1 dungeon track available at any given time (for what reason?). 2. Doing a full track is ~50 matches (so I’m probably better off just doing the dungeon). 3. Probably a good precentage of PvE players will never set foot in PvP.

AFM: Well your lazy, pathetic, weak, milquetoast suggestion will just let everyone get exotics quickly.
Me: Yes. And does it matter? I mean it costs like what, 10 g for a full exo gear? You can farm that under 2 hours anyway.

AFM: Well I don’t care. I did PvP before wardrobe, and thus I have most things unlocked, I’m done with 5 dungoen collections already. So “hah!” in your face!
Me: Good for you. Now think of the people that weren’t so lucky. Now think of new players.

I think that about covers it. Thank you for taking time to read.

Works for me!

Labjax.2465:

“Why would anyone in their right mind bother to unlock all of those skins for any reason other than completing the achievement?”

Because it’s another checklist you can work on, some people including myself enjoy that. And ~1kish runs arent that much considering that this game has been out for almost 2 years.

I also really like how this achievement kinda forces you to at least consider playing PvP because not only do you get 3 weapons + 1 armor but you also get tokens, transmutation charges and leveling tomes.

I can’t complain much about it, I almost have this achievement done because I had a personal Achievement a long time ago when the Wardrobe came out to get every Karma, Dungeon, and Cultural skin in the game. I don’t worry about it too much I find when you don’t focus on it and just do dungeons here or there while you do other things tokens really stack up.

I can get almost 7k AC tokens doin’ all paths each day in one month. All paths of AC takes maybe 45 minutes to an hour with a good team. Better with a great team. A little worse with a bad one. The same goes for most of the other dungeons, there are only a few that take significant time. Arah has been a kittene for me, but I am about 67% finished with that one. Just a few more weapon skins left.

I don’t think it should be changed because its not that bad you get 180 tokens a day if you do all paths of a single dungeon. That’s one full set of armor in a week. It’s meant to be a long-term Achievement.

@Lalocat:
I’m almost done with AC as well. I’m at 133/145 runs (so 12 to go). But whenever I hear “Grast” I cringe. And then I think about there’s 7 more dungeons to go…

@Dawntree:
You are a stalker. Also, thanks for explaining why I don’t have those unlocked, I didn’t know that.
And yeah, I know they are long term, but so is Yakslapper (at my rate of Yakslapping I can complete that in 40-45 years). I think it discourages people more than it motivates them.

@kokiman: I also like checklist, I guess that’s why I’m working on it. Also it’s true that is has been out 2 years, and I have run dungeons quite a lot. Problem is collection hasn’t been out that long, and my who knows how many runs are wasted.

@Paradox:
While it is absolutely true what you are saying I would like to point out 3 things:
1. AC with all it’s paths is (I think) the shortest dungeon (CoF 1+2+3 > AC 1+2+3 not to mention other dungoens).
2. With a good group is a key word. Or words. The thing is, I don’t think anyone has freinds that want to run the same dungeon 145 times. That means you have to PuG it. So good groups is a matter of luck – or waiting in lfg (both wich prolongs the dungeoning).
3. While it’s true that getting a set of armor takes 7 (7.3 actually) days (counting with 69 tokens/path), for the total collection you need to run the dungeon for 48 (48.2 actually) days straight given you run all 3 paths. And that’s not likely on all dungeons.

@Bubi:
I updated the suggestion bit with a new sugestion on how more tokens could be implemented fairly:
At the end of the dungeons, you could choose if instead of the gold reward you would prefer token rewards: for every 50 silvers worth of money, you could choose 10 tokens instead. Eg.: at the end of CoF p1 you could choose +20 tokens instead of the 1 g.

Well I wouldn’t say no to more tokens since that would increase dungeon income, but that’s because I believe that dungeons should be more rewarding than they currently are. When I can run around tagging mobs in the labyrinth for more gold/hour than dungeons it’s pretty disheartening.

I’ve completed this achievement, though I had the advantage of starting with all the armors already unlocked and a couple thousand tokens of each dungeon banked. While I don’t think the requirement is excessive I feel that the reward is a bit lacking and that Anet could’ve come up with something better than “Dungeoneer” which sounds like a step backwards from “Dungeon Master”. In the end all I gained was a weak title and a new-found hatred for HotW.

Bubi.7942:

There is only 1 dungeon track available at any given time (for what reason?).

I agree in general, but this part simply isn’t true. Completing the story mode of a dungeon unlocks its reward track permanently, regardless of whether it’s the one on rotation or not. This doesn’t solve any of the issues, but just had to point it out.

As a completionist, I regret to inform you that this is not a game for completionism or completing every achievement. Things like Dragon Bash were bad, but let’s not forget that any missed Season 1 or WvW tournament achievement is gone for good – if you didn’t want to grind during that short time frame or simple couldn’t do it (I’m looking at you Crabgrabber, and all your griefers/riggers), then too bad. Then we have non-achievement things such as Foostivoo the Merry. If anyone is genuinely still on track for 100% completion and unlocking everything in this game… I fear for their sanity.

Chameleon Dude.1564:

Bubi.7942:

There is only 1 dungeon track available at any given time (for what reason?).

I agree in general, but this part simply isn’t true. Completing the story mode of a dungeon unlocks its reward track permanently, regardless of whether it’s the one on rotation or not. This doesn’t solve any of the issues, but just had to point it out.

As a completionist, I regret to inform you that this is not a game for completionism or completing every achievement. Things like Dragon Bash were bad, but let’s not forget that any missed Season 1 or WvW tournament achievement is gone for good – if you didn’t want to grind during that short time frame or simple couldn’t do it (I’m looking at you Crabgrabber, and all your griefers/riggers), then too bad. Then we have non-achievement things such as Foostivoo the Merry. If anyone is genuinely still on track for 100% completion and unlocking everything in this game… I fear for their sanity.

Dawntree above pointed out that: "You had to do the story after April patch to unlock the track " – I admit I was not aware of that, I did those well before it (guess that means 8 bonus dungeons for me… yay).

For the rest:
Altough my comment here won’t add anything to this thread, I would lke to reply to your comment, so you can picture the sad person that I am.

I got every single LS achievment except 1. Yes, I got Liadri 8 orbs, 50 merc camps during season 1, 50 effigies, Crab eliminator (or whatever it’s called), and all SAB tribulation mode achies. I have a Foostivoo, a mini Karka and currently I’m working on my Halloween 1.0 skins.

And this token gathering unlocking thing is the first achievment to frustrare me this much. I get depressed at the mere tought that someone at Anet tought it was a good idea to make people get 79.920 tokens for the skins (9990 × 8 ).

(Ps.: If you are wondering what Achie I am missing: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Fractured-Give-it-back-14-days-not-OK/first )

Bubi.7942:

[…]more harm than good to […] my mental health […].

It’s ok guys, there’s not much to save here, it’s cool.

Bubi.7942:

@Dawntree:
You are a stalker.

I play with Spidren. She has a big influence on the matter. (BTW I just randomly find your threads in the forum, and they are a good discussion opportunities XD)

back to serious

Bubi.7942:

- Suggestion 3: Add extra things that rewards you with more tokens. For instance, slaying every champion on AC paths (including troll) awards you with +20 tokens at the end, or completing AC paths under 10 minutes gives you extra 10 tokens, or no one downing at the last boss gives you +5 tokens, or doing Giganticus Lupicus on the first try gives you +5 tokens. Something unique for each dungoen. This could be done in the same manner as Dry Top is at the moment – Bonus if xy is completed/not lost etc..

^This is the best suggestion to me.

I like all OPs suggestions. It doesn’t exactly speed up the acquisition of tokens to the point where you get all dungeon items in a few days, but does cut off ~20ish% of the needed runs. Only thing I wouldn’t look forward to would be the extra tasks, though that depends on each specific task.

Bubi.7942:

I did. For a total set, you need 9990 tokens. 9990. Neunundneunzig luftballons. For an average dungoen run, you are gonna get 60 tokens + 9 from bosses, so that’s 69 tokens. that means you gotta run the same dungoen 145 times to complete it. A total 1160 runs for all the dungeons. Most people in most dungeons don’t even run all paths, cause some take twice as long as others, but even if you ran all 3, that’s still 48 runs each path.

Do you think that’s enough? It’s like a torture, repeating the same old boring content over and over and over and over again, until your brain starts to melt, and drips out your ear.

Welcome to GW2. Most of the nice rewards are buried below hundreds of hours of mindless farming. In other games, at least, you could play challenging group content when in pursuit of rewards. In this game, you can either FYAO or FYAO.

How about… no? You can get these skins in dungeons or via the pvp tracks (you get armor and weapon chests too so the tracks are not that bad for this purpose).
It’s like torture? Then don’t do it to yourself and do something else.
You want the title/achievement? Then you have your options, use them and get it.

Tokens can also be good source of gold so inflating their acquisition can be detrimental too.

@Aenesthesia:
Uhm, thank you I guess. Altough this particular topic is not about rewards, as these Collection achievment reward a chest contains mainly junk, and few APs. Nothing really worth going for. It is more about the completion and how unrealistic/unfun it is.

@kolompi:
I do wonder what you have against it cause you didn’t really mention that in your post. It is hard for me to grasp that performing the same task 145 times ( x8 if all dungeons) is a fair/good/well-tought-out challange for you.

As I mentioned in the opening post, yes I could get Yakslapper title as well. I mean, it’s only 1,000,000 Yaks. Counting with the repsawn rate of 2 per 5 minutes, and given that you stay 24/7 at one camp that never flips and kill all the Yaks, you should get it in 4.756 years. If you want to view it realisticly it’s 40-50 years for hardcore gamers, 150-200 years with a more casual approach.

The issue I have with the dungeons is basicly the same on a smaller scale.

@KngGilgamesh:
While that is true, suggestion 4 offers a fair trade for tokens in exchange for gold. If that’s balanced right, economy remains unchanged.

No because:

• It’s an achievment. You should suffer for trying to do it.
• You have OCD you don’t have to do achievments.
• Well, you are a scrub. Just go PvP and get the rewards man, dude, daddi-o, 1v1 me.
• Well your lazy, pathetic, weak, milquetoast suggestion will just let everyone get exotics quickly.
• Well I don’t care. I did PvP before wardrobe, and thus I have most things unlocked, I’m done with 5 dungoen collections already. So “hah!” in your face!

Me: After 2 and a half years in game, there is nothing else left to do.

Then that is why we shouldn’t buff rewards. So you can actually have something to do.

Me: Yes, I could do that. But: 1. There is only 1 dungeon track available at any given time (for what reason?). 2. Doing a full track is ~50 matches (so I’m probably better off just doing the dungeon). 3. Probably a good precentage of PvE players will never set foot in PvP.

Then they don’t have to get dungeon weapons/armor. Its optional.

Me: Yes. And does it matter? I mean it costs like what, 10 g for a full exo gear? You can farm that under 2 hours anyway.

Then pay 10g for the full exo gear and don’t get the dungeon armor. Simple as that.

Me: No you shouldn’t. There is a difference between reasonable, and just plain boring, frustrating. After your 40th run on the same path you just want to quit the game alltogether.

There are alternatives, such as PvP. There is no reason you have to grind Dungeons as hard as I did. There is no subscription fee, not getting the achievement will not kill you.

Me: Good for you. Now think of the people that weren’t so lucky. Now think of new players.

Grinding my dungeon gear isn’t lucky, there is no RNG involved. It was pure effort and grind. New players should put the effort and grind if they want the achievements that I had.

Some months ago I proposed some different systems to the Dungeon rewards problem, long before the collections were even added.

There are different systems, and the first one has 2 variations and I will explain all of them below:

1) Extra tokens based on completed paths
a) When you complete a dungeon path you get a number of tokens. When you complete a second dungeon path of the same dungeon you get double tokens, when you do the third path you get triple times the original tokens. That way actually staying and finishing all paths of a dungeon becomes really rewarding.

b) Alternatively, instead of applying to one specific dungeon only, the mechanic can apply to all of them (maximum 4 paths). So I can run CoF P1 → SE P1 → TA up → Arah P1 and get x4 Arah tokens. This system creates more variety.

After the 4th run the system is reset.

Both systems will cause an excessive increase in the amount of tokens players will get, also, even with this change players might not want to run all paths, because of the time required. To solve this issue, Dungeon token rewards should be reduced slightly, or they can be lowered much more BUT forget daily DR. Players who want to grind/farm the same path can do it (maybe lock per character as it was before) while players who want more variety can run more paths and get the extra rewards. That way all kinds of players will be happy and DR will be removed

2) Lore Book
Another, completely different, system that applies to dungeon rewards, is the “Lore Book” system, where players get a certain lore book that starts blank with entries for each dungeon. Once a dungeon path is finished, the specific entry on the book is filled, providing the opportunity for players to learn more about the story/lore behind the dungeon, repeat an important cinematic and read what kind of collections / achievements are still available for them in that Dungeon path.

Players can turn in these “Books” for extra rewards based on the number of filled pages, the more filled pages, the better the rewards, possible rewards should include a great amount of extra dungeon tokens of the user’s choice, so instead of farming the same dungeon over and over, you do a variety of them, then get tokens for a specific dungeon that you need for a collection and/or armor.

My initial idea for this system was a repeatable Dungeon Master, which requires all dungeon paths to be finished, then turn in for great rewards, but allowing players to turn in the Books when they want is maybe a more flexible way of dealing with this.

Both systems (extra tokens for completed paths AND lore book variety) can be used at the same time or individually.

Both systems are based on rewards systems from Guild Wars 1:
The Token system is based on the Domain of Anguish reward system
The Lore Book idea is based on the Dungeon Master’s Guide book

My only issue is that I’d be a fair bit closer to finishing this achievement if Collections was a thing a year and a half ago. I’ve unlocked and salvaged/forged so many dungeon skins that I will never get credit for T.T

Sigh. Those are long term collector achievements that you get by playing the game. Kind of similar to the WvW and PvP ones although more reasonable. It seems so many people are against any form of grind yet they purposely subject themselves to it on a daily basis due to their own impatience.

Dungeons have multiple paths, learn them all, farm them all, suddenly you’re doing each path less than 50 times instead of 145.

AC is easy all 3 paths
COE the same, very slight differences between paths
HOTW p2/3 are lame because of water fights but they really can’t be called difficult just maybe long
COF p3 is kinda lame but not all that hard just again, long
SE… honestly I’ve never done p2 haha but still you’re looking at about 70 if you do p1/3
Arah you have 4 paths, while p4 is LONG it’s honestly one of the most fun paths in the game IMO
TA only really 2 paths to farm so again 70 days

We’re not getting new dungeons anytime soon so go out there and farm. You could have it in a month or two if you do full tours daily. Personally I’m half way there in every dungeon just with the tokens I’m sitting on.

And Bubi, AC is actually about average length, same as COE, though COE you have to deal with the pesky megaservers and prevents.

I really don’t find it bad at all.

That said, I’d be very ok with the #3 suggestion… hard modes?!?!?! ohh wait… they said that’ll never happen

Labjax.2465:

snip – Talk about disparity between effort and reward.

Yes, exactly why I would personally never bother with this stuff. I mean really, look at collecting BL skins. Were you to even do one full collection, if you actually had to buy every skin – oh let’s pick something not crazy expensive, I don’t know, Dream Thistle weapons – it would cost thousands of gold, or, alternatively hundreds of RL dollars to buy chests to maybe get enough tix for skins, or, again alternatively, months of grinding keys. For 7 tix and 1 AP. 7 tix gets you 1/3 of yet another collection, and the grind goes on. For literally NOTHING. If you’re not having fun, it’s no longer a GAME.

By the way, what I said about BL skins is perfectly transferrable to the dungeon skins rewards. Totally not worth it.

If you LOVE doing the dungeons or teaching others how to do them, and do them anyway, then have at it, and eventually you’ll get the pittance reward. If you don’t like it that much, then the reward isn’t worth hating the game over.

Rather than change the current system, I would like to see a new tab on each of the vendors where you can buy the skin to unlock at 1/3 the price of the actual armor or weapon piece. I already have exotic armor or ascended armor sets for my characters and while I realize I can forge the dungeon items to get a chance at a precursor or exotic with an expensive rune/sigil, I really just want the skin and don’t care about that part.

This would make it so that there wasn’t any unnecessary or unintended economical changes with increased tokens.

It would increase the rate at which the collection is earned, while still being a long term goal. At 1/3 the rate it would require about 57 runs for 8 dungeons. This would still take about 7-8 months running two paths per day, starting at zero.

For those that have forged the skins prior to the wardrobe, it would make it simpler and less frustrating to go through the unlock process again.

I also think that if the goal became more achievable, more players would try for it. If the player awareness and participation in dungeons were increased, it might make it an area where resources could be spent justifiably because it would impact a larger group.

Also, this wouldn’t preclude other changes to dungeons or tokens, just specifically address wardrobe skins.

the dungeoneer title has meaning, unlike dungeon master

suck it up

Well…as a dungeon frequent, I was a little shock that I am still short on tokens when I start working on the achievement.

AC/CoF done right at start
CM/TA already half done & finish in a month
SE/Arah already at 31/37
COE all path is easy to form
……the painful part is actually HotW, hardly anyone(in my guild anyway) wants to run this, and most who run will only do p1(no love for underwater bosses). With still ~4k tokens missing and only ~60 token pre day, I will most likely have to pvp to get this done in reasonable amount of time.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Labjax.2465:

snip – Talk about disparity between effort and reward.

Yes, exactly why I would personally never bother with this stuff. I mean really, look at collecting BL skins. Were you to even do one full collection, if you actually had to buy every skin – oh let’s pick something not crazy expensive, I don’t know, Dream Thistle weapons – it would cost thousands of gold, or, alternatively hundreds of RL dollars to buy chests to maybe get enough tix for skins, or, again alternatively, months of grinding keys. For 7 tix and 1 AP. 7 tix gets you 1/3 of yet another collection, and the grind goes on. For literally NOTHING. If you’re not having fun, it’s no longer a GAME.

Well said.

That’s why I object to achievements like these, really. Not because I think they’re supposed to all be easy or that long-term goals are a bad thing.

But rather that the collections system was portrayed like an interesting system of its own. And instead, many of the collections are simply ludicrous gold/timesinks that you’re best off not doing unless – as you said concerning the dungeons – you already hardcore do the content that would get you the collection complete (in which case you can sort of let the achievement happen naturally – making it a largely irrelevant system in the process).

Basically, a lot of the collections are stuff that you have to be swimming in currency, time, and/or boredom to ever bother to complete. Which is just silly imo. They should be appealing in their own right, not something that you do as a last resort to stay interested in the game.

I think a couple of them are appealing, too. Like the spoon and jar collections are both fairly interesting, in terms of going around Tyria to acquire various components. But there’s nothing particularly interesting on its own about (for example) unlocking every dungeon skin. I mean, it’s already something you could do – an achievement telling you that you did is icing I guess, but it’s not gameplay. There’s nothing particularly compelling about it.

I guess the comparison would be if the spoon achievement required you to gather every single spoon there is and there was one on every single karma merchant in Tyria. I think most people would be talking about how absurd that is, yet the game has similar achievements for dungeon gear and BL weapons, and people are like “oh it’s fine, it’s just long-term goals.”

TL;DR: If Collections were meant to be icing on the cake that you completely ignore 90% of the time, then great. The system is fine as is. If they were meant to be anything else, then a lot of the collections need another pass.

You used to be able to get 60 tokens per character for your first run of each path, rather than per account. Same with the bonus chest for fractals of the mists, per character previously, now per account.

They sell character slots for $10 and then make it less and less rewarding to have multiple characters. Not very business savvy.

The pouches are a legacy item really. Before the dungeon rewards purge and karma meganerf, they used to contain karma, tokens, coins and perhaps other stuff as well.

@runeblade:
The thing is, set goals motivate people. If a goal is easy to reach, it doesn’t motivate well. If the goal is near impossible, it doesn’t motivate well. Best goals are those, that are hard and challanging to get, you put in effort, and you overcome difficulties, thus you achieve your goal. That’s a great feeling. Now the trick is, different peole have differnet “limit” values on what they find ‘hard’ or ‘easy’.

Now, right above your comment I mention the Yakslapper WvW achievment, which is to kill 1.000.000 Yaks. I think no one finds that motivating, as the reasonable estiamte for completing it 40-50 years.

For dungeons it’s 79.920 tokens in total. Assuming one does a full run every day in 1 dungeon (207 tokens – for 1 hour avarage) it takes 386 days to complete it. That means you run every single day, not one day or path missed. If one is a sane person, one doesn’t do that most likely.

Altough that’s whtihin comprehension doesn’t it seem like a dull task to you? There is no change in difficulty, there is no veriety, it’s the exact same thing. It’s an endurance test against boredom and monotony.

Even if you spread out to 3 paths, for each dungoen you do the same thing 48 times. Don’t just diss the numbers, think about it. First 3-4 runs, you learn the dungeon. 5-15 you profit from your knowledge – I guess this still can be seen as enjoyable. And the last 33?

Being worried about someone getting the same vanity items as you, is a legit concern I guess, altough the current suggeston reduces the days needed to get 1 set of armor from 7 days to 6. Nothing really worth mentioning.

About luck: I meant that you/me/anyone was lucky to already have a set from PvP in the PvP wardrobe, as it was impossible to fortell that account wardrobe, and collectibles were coming.

@Ayrilana:
I do understand the concept of long-term achievment. As you said it’s like WvW achievments – altough a bit better cause those as you probably know, are impossible. The thing is, just because something is long term, it doesn’t mean it should be out of realistic reach.

At it’s current state it is relatively ‘easy’ only to those who have got most/all skins from PvP before the 2014 april feature patch (which in itself is kinda backwards – PvP being most via PvE).

A new player starting from scratch is not likely to finish this whithin a couple of years (see calculations in previous posts, or in this one above).

@maddoctor:
I would be happy with either of those suggestions implemented well balanced out.

@brittitude:
That’s also a very great idea. Would love that.

I’ve kinda skimmed this thread, but I don’t get the complaint…

The collections are about unlocking the Dungeon skins and surprisingly, quite a few of those are out there in the regular world.
I’ve not bought any AC or CM items with tokens, but I have 11/37 & 13/37 respectively for both collection tracks.
Clearly you don’t need to grind dungeons as much as you think.

Bubi.7942:

@runeblade:
The thing is, set goals motivate people. If a goal is easy to reach, it doesn’t motivate well. If the goal is near impossible, it doesn’t motivate well. Best goals are those, that are hard and challanging to get, you put in effort, and you overcome difficulties, thus you achieve your goal. That’s a great feeling. Now the trick is, different peole have differnet “limit” values on what they find ‘hard’ or ‘easy’.

Now, right above your comment I mention the Yakslapper WvW achievment, which is to kill 1.000.000 Yaks. I think no one finds that motivating, as the reasonable estiamte for completing it 40-50 years.

For dungeons it’s 79.920 tokens in total. Assuming one does a full run every day in 1 dungeon (207 tokens – for 1 hour avarage) it takes 386 days to complete it. That means you run every single day, not one day or path missed. If one is a sane person, one doesn’t do that most likely.

Altough that’s whtihin comprehension doesn’t it seem like a dull task to you? There is no change in difficulty, there is no veriety, it’s the exact same thing. It’s an endurance test against boredom and monotony.

Even if you spread out to 3 paths, for each dungoen you do the same thing 48 times. Don’t just diss the numbers, think about it. First 3-4 runs, you learn the dungeon. 5-15 you profit from your knowledge – I guess this still can be seen as enjoyable. And the last 33?

Being worried about someone getting the same vanity items as you, is a legit concern I guess, altough the current suggeston reduces the days needed to get 1 set of armor from 7 days to 6. Nothing really worth mentioning.

About luck: I meant that you/me/anyone was lucky to already have a set from PvP in the PvP wardrobe, as it was impossible to fortell that account wardrobe, and collectibles were coming.

If it doesn’t motivate you, then don’t do it. Simple as that.

If I get burned out halfway through, I can take a break. There is no subscription fee telling me to keep grinding.

I dont support this. Noone is forcing you to complete this.

PS: I finished the Dungeoneer achievement already

To be honest, I don’t think the various collection achievements for the dungeons are too bad. They are kind of meant to be the icing on the cake for skin collectors who would have collected all the dungeon skins anyway. If you’re after a specific weapon or armor set from a dungeon, it will take you about a couple days (up to a week for a full armor set) to earn one. That’s fair enough, in my opinion. You can earn these even faster in PvP!

Now, that said, I don’t mind dungeon tokens being made a bit more available via the following:

1. Completing Story Mode of the dungeon rewards you with 20 tokens, once per day from the bonus chest. This gives some more incentive for people to do Story Mode.

2. Completing bonus events in a dungeon, such as destroying the Graveling Nest or killing the Troll in AC, gives out a small bonus of tokens (maybe 5). These bonus tokens are also given out once per day. (I would have made them repeatable, but some of the bonus events pop up early and it would just encourage players to farm the event over and over.)

For the record, yes, I am going for the Dungeoneer achievement, but I’m taking my time about it. I’ve completed the AC one, am 36/37 for CM, but still have a long way to go for the others.

The part that bothers me about dungeon collections, and collections in general, is that it doesn’t count things that I had before they were put into the game that I don’t have any more, like certain dungeon armors that I changed skins on before the update.

7/8 For dungeoneer… its honestly not that bad if you enjoy dungeons. And if you dont, then its a grind cheevo, which is intended to reward people that do enjoy those.

I don’t have a problem with the amount required for the achievement, its nice to have some long term goals.

My only real issue with the achievement is how players who spent tokens before it came out have to grind all that again. I’ve already ran over 1,000 dungeons but since I’ve always spent those tokens on weapons/armor to salvage/mystic forge, I don’t have much progress towards the achievement.

Give mobs in dungeons a chance to drop tokens so that there is an incentive to not skip (or at least an appreciable reward for killing everything).

Alternatively take a GW1 vanquishing approach. If you kill all mobs in a dungeon an extra chest containing a significant number of tokens is awarded.

Bubi.7942:

- Suggestion 3: Add extra things that rewards you with more tokens. For instance, slaying every champion on AC paths (including troll) awards you with +20 tokens at the end, or completing AC paths under 10 minutes gives you extra 10 tokens, or no one downing at the last boss gives you +5 tokens, or doing Giganticus Lupicus on the first try gives you +5 tokens. Something unique for each dungoen. This could be done in the same manner as Dry Top is at the moment – Bonus if xy is completed/not lost etc..

- Suggestion 4: At the end of the dungeons, you could choose if instead of the gold reward you would prefer token rewards: for every 50 silvers worth of money, you could choose 10 tokens instead. Eg.: at the end of CoF p1 you could choose +20 tokens instead of the 1 g.

I love those suggestions, especially the third one. Offers more variety in dungeon content and would be a great risk vs. reward for doing it. Suggestion 4 is also a really good idea and would also give players working for a dungeon set a quicker and easier way of going about it. Nothing really constructive to add here, just my full support!

EDIT:

Ashen.2907:

Give mobs in dungeons a chance to drop tokens so that there is an incentive to not skip (or at least an appreciable reward for killing everything).

Alternatively take a GW1 vanquishing approach. If you kill all mobs in a dungeon an extra chest containing a significant number of tokens is awarded.

Also a really, really good idea! Players would still have the option to skip if they want their quick rewards, but you’d still be able to get increased rewards vs. time spent. Also, maybe an increased number of token drops for veterans/elites and champions? Of course the number of tokens would have to be really low as to not give the speed clearers any reason to cry foul.

Pandaman.4758:

All I can suggest to people who have this long grind ahead of them is not to focus on the long term goal, just concentrate on a skin at a time, and try to supplement it with some dungeon tracks (three matches a day at least, which will also net a little AP from the daily achievements as well).

This is sound advice. Also, you get a bit more AP if you do PvP because there are PvP-only achevements, too, and they give a decent-ish amount of AP, especially if you PvP on multiple classes.

But IMO the collections are fine as they are, especially so because of the wardrobe system. However, the end rewards for each collection should be upped quite a bit IMO; the ascended accesory is nice, but they should contain some 3-5 guaranteed exotics as well. It’s a long process and the rewards atm seem a bit underwhelming. Ah, and a huge chest for getting the Dungeoneer title, maybe some ascended weapons/armor pieces of your choice? I don’t think that’s likey, but one can hope, right?

I think the main issue here is that the rewards don’t feel balanced relative to the work involved. For one dungeon collection completion, you’d need to spend hundreds of hours acquiring it just for a measly 3 AP’s and in most cases, a useless trinket (useless if you consider how much easier it is to get superior, ascended trinkets).

Meanwhile, other achievements in the game such as JP achievements, etc, can take as little as five minutes for 10AP’s. It just doesn’t make much sense.

I actually like the idea of collections. I don’t even mind if they take long. The issue is that in most cases, the rewards for completing a collection are far too insignificant to bother going out of our way to get them.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

I actually like the idea of collections. I don’t even mind if they take long. The issue is that in most cases, the rewards for completing a collection are far too insignificant to bother going out of our way to get them.

Judging by how all collections work, it is by design that they have such low AP rewards. Don’t forget that you are rewarded with gold/drops/exp when you are working towards the Dungeon Collections but you get next to nothing for Jumping Puzzles.

maddoctor.2738:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

I actually like the idea of collections. I don’t even mind if they take long. The issue is that in most cases, the rewards for completing a collection are far too insignificant to bother going out of our way to get them.

Judging by how all collections work, it is by design that they have such low AP rewards. Don’t forget that you are rewarded with gold/drops/exp when you are working towards the Dungeon Collections but you get next to nothing for Jumping Puzzles.

I could make the gold needed to get the end reward of a collection in an hour just farming, so why should I go out of my way, spending possibly hundreds of hours doing it elsewhere?

It’s easier to get achievements elsewhere, and it’s easier to get most of the rewards themselves elsewhere, so why would anyone go out of their way to complete a collection in that case? You don’t even get titles for most of them. The only collections worth going out of our way for, in my opinion, are the ones with unique rewards like the chest in your home instance, or the karmic converter, because those cannot be acquired by any other means.

@Mizuki Kunasagi:
To my knowledge (which may be flawed) these skins cannot be aquired anywehre in the open world. They are exclusively from dungeons and PvP rewards tracks. If you are an old player, you may have those things unlocked because you did some PvP before the wardrobe system, and you got the skins via the old PvP wardrobe.

@runeblade:
Yes, that is exactly what I am gonna do. I need 248 tokens more to finish the AC collection, and after I’m done with that, I am most likely not gonna enter any dungeons. Ever. Well maybe 1-2 yearly.

@Everyone who replied:
It seems some of you are missing the point I’m trying to make. I have nothing against long-term achievments, I don’t mind even a bit of grind. I like hard content, and I woould love the game to have challanges suitable for hardcore players (like me). I don’t give a skritt about rewards I actually had to google up “Dungeneer” title as I didn’t even know that existed. I jsut like completing things for completions sake.

The issue is that you repeat the same task over and over again. If the dungeon had like 200 paths, and you had to do all of them 3 times – I would have no issue. The problem is that you do the exacts same, boring, unchallenging (or at least I hope not many of you think dungeons are actually challanging), repetative stand-in-the-corner-mash-1 chore.

@Everyone with Dungeneer title or near to it:
I am curious if you are done/near done with the title because you were grinding dungeons ever since wardrobe (2014 april I think) or because you were doing PvP before that?

@Ashen:
I’d like that.

You can do all paths of hotw in <45 min with an okay team. I’m sure it’s even faster with a great group. It’s sad that people hate p2 and p3 so much, because it makes finding this decent group that much harder. I like p2 more than p1.

I googled looking for tips on how to complete this achievement beyond the obviousand found solid gold in a guide that recommended doing every path of a dungeon every day, along with an entire pvp reward tier. Apparently it takes only a week to complete one dungeon collection if you start from zero! Hahahaaaa right.