Guild Wars 2

Thread #3847 on this matter! But it’s a long time since I’ve seen one, so I’m bringing it to the attention of the forum again – hopefully in a much more constructive manner than the past.

The problem

It is simply unfeasible to constantly replace the Sigil, and unreasonable to expect players to purchase multiple of the same Legendary for different Sigil choices, much like players have multiple ascended weapons.

Why is it a problem?

Legendaries are currently in a state that can put the player wielding one at a disadvantage when compared to another player. This example will be a player who uses Axe, and participates in all content.

It’s currently better, both financially and effectively, for a player to have several Ascended Axes with all the Sigils needed than to purchase Frostfang. Rather than get out of hand and name all Sigils, as some have extremely limited use, the following Sigils allow players to be most effective in all content:

• Night
• Justice
• Undead
• Svanir
• Icebrood
• Force
• Bloodlust
• Accuracy

Buying 8 Ascended Axes would cost ~500g if the cost of 500 Weaponsmith is included – Frostfang costs ~1500g.

This puts a player who has a Legendary in 2 positions:

1. Being less effective than another member to the team or group, because they want to use their hard earned Legendary.
2. Having their Legendary weapon sitting in their bag.

Another way this is problematic is when a player switches between “modes” of playing. Someone who is running a Dungeon will need drastically different Sigils compared to when the same person is in WvW. As before, this person is going to be in a couple of situations:

1. Using their Legendary in PvE, and have it sitting in their bag for WvW due to a PvE Sigil being sub-par for WvW.
2. Using their Legendary in WvW, and have it sitting in their bag for PvE due to a WvW Sigil being sub-par for PvE.
3. Using their Legendary in both WvW & PvE, but being a disadvantage to the other players around them.

The Legendary is supposed to be the “ultimate” weapon, needing to never be slotted out for another. While Legendary weapons certainly should not be mandatory, they should certainly not be a disadvantage to use or have – which they currently are.

Proposition

I propose that a function is implemented onto Legendary weapons that allow Sigil switching – much like how stat selection on Legendary weapons work currently.

It would be unfair to have every Sigil automatically in the Legendary, the only Sigil that should be saved by default in the one required in the Gift of X (where X is the Legendary name – such as Leeching for Twilight, or Agony for Kamohoali’i Kotaki). A possibility to circumvent this fairness is that the player first needs to purchase the Sigil and “insert” it into the weapon, where it becomes saved.

We already know ArenaNet are not opposed to Legendary weapons having a unique function, as stat selection was implemented a number of months ago.

Once again, the currently Legendary system puts the player using it at a disadvantage to someone who does not own such weapon in every manner of the word. The purpose of this thread was to highlight a problem in a constructive manner, while providing feedback on improvements.

Please leave critiques or other improvements below.

This should of been implemented when they added the stat switching to leggies.

Spoj The Second.7680:

This should of been implemented when they added the stat switching to leggies.

Baby steps, Spoj ^^

Gw2 has been baby stepping since launch. At one point you have to take off and run.

I am against this simply because the +damage% against a specific enemy sigils are and should always be about choice. Same for Sigil of Night. You should never be able to get the full benefit of them without some kind of sacrifice.

And by the way, the only people using a single weapon would be rifle Engis and Staff Eles. Everyone else has 2-4 due to dual wielding and/or weapon swapping. Surely you don’t think that people run around with 16/24/32 Ascended weapons to cover all the sigils.

And I don’t really see this “disadvantage” that you think exists. Yes, Legendaries cost a lot more than an Ascended weapon. But it is also far, far cheaper to replace a sigil than it is to buy even a second Ascended weapon.

And besides, Sigil of Force exists as the medium choice. It’s not as good as Sigil of Bloodlust with a full stack nor is it as potent as a Sigil of Night during nighttime, but it is far more consistent on its application. Unless the environment in which your character exists isn’t a changing one, such as doing a specific dungeon over and over again.

Olba. Right now on my Warrior i play GS and A/M and in my inventory i have :

- 1 GS and 1 Mace with bloodlust so i have stack my bloodlust.
- I have 1 GS and 1 Axe with sigil of Night for most dungeon
- I have 1 GS and 1 Axe with sigil of the undead for Arah
- I have 1 Mace with sigil of Battle for when my bloodlust if maxed.

I would also like to have 1 GS and 1 Axe with sigils of Force for CM, HotW or regular PvE, and for Fractal if i wanted to do fractal on my warrior(i use my guardian for that).

I have 3 GS, 2 Axe and 2 Mace for a good coverage of the sigils when i do speed clear. I would love to get eventually Twilight and Frostfang on my Warrior, but that would either decrease my dps (which is not a great idea when you speed clear) or i would have to only use these legendary from time to time when i need 1 particular sigil.

I’m aware it a 1st World problem. I’ll probably just not make any legendary for my warrior. But the legendary is suppose to be the ultimate weapon, after which you need no other weapons. It not about the cost, its not about having an advantage over someone without a legendary, its only about the convenience.

Olba.5376:

And I don’t really see this “disadvantage” that you think exists. Yes, Legendaries cost a lot more than an Ascended weapon. But it is also far, far cheaper to replace a sigil than it is to buy even a second Ascended weapon.

But it’s a maintenance cost. You will need to keep replacing the Sigil, and that cost will rack up, and up … and up.

Olba.5376:

And besides, Sigil of Force exists as the medium choice. It’s not as good as Sigil of Bloodlust with a full stack nor is it as potent as a Sigil of Night during nighttime

There’s the problem. Players have to settle at a middle ground, while there’s somebody without Legendary who has a couple of Ascended weapons able to use the best Sigil possible for every situation.

I agree with your proposition on the condition that stat swapping and your proposed sigil swapping become available for all ascended gear.

It is absurd how much grinding is required to put together multiple sets of gear, or to experiment without gimping your stats significantly.

Stat swapping & rune/sigil storing should be a feature of all items ascended+. It would be a terrific improvement to the game.

wolfpaq.7354:

I agree with your proposition on the condition that stat swapping and your proposed sigil swapping become available for all ascended gear.

It is absurd how much grinding is required to put together multiple sets of gear, or to experiment without gimping your stats significantly.

Stat swapping & rune/sigil storing should be a feature of all items ascended+. It would be a terrific improvement to the game.

Ascended is fine. It’s a lot more reasonable for players to purchase multiple ascended weapons. They tend to cost roughly 50g each, which, while a good sum of money, isn’t out of reach or a lengthy grind to obtain for most of the population now.

IDK about Ascended weapons and we might be pushing the overall pickyness of this game a bit too much with that, but I definitely agree that Legendary weapons should get Sigil swapping, just like the stat swapping but through registering it to the weapon as suggested by OP.

Doggie.3184:

IDK about Ascended weapons and we might be pushing the overall pickyness of this game a bit too much with that, but I definitely agree that Legendary weapons should get Sigil swapping, just like the stat swapping but through registering it to the weapon as suggested by OP.

The thread isn’t about Ascended. That was a small derail posted by another.

Why would you ever waste dev time on this?

Such miniscule differences in performance within a game mode that is already the easiest of its kind in any game ever.

EFWinters.5421:

Why would you ever waste dev time on this?

Such miniscule differences in performance within a game mode that is already the easiest of its kind in any game ever.

You do realise its helpful for wvw players aswell.

I agree – this would be immensely helpful.

Full support from my side, I was about to post a similar suggestion when I found this.
Sigils are the Legendary’s sore point, the one reason making them less desirable than a set of Ascendeds.
We are meant to switch stats so we can use our expensive & flamboyant prestige objects in all builds and roles. Yet sigils & runes are a very substantial part of those.
Please implement a choice between a (limited?) set of previously added sigils. Legendaries are expensive enough to justify this.

While at it, don’t forget to add Infusion swapping
because it would be an epic fail to have sigil swappable and still having infusions un-swappable. Another baby-step.

I support this Sigil-Switch, but then they have to switch some more things, like the item “Upgrade Extractor”. Otherwise some people would make some money with sigils.. extract them and put another sigil in it and switch it again etc.
(Only if the prices would rise extremly)

Plok.5873:

Full support from my side, I was about to post a similar suggestion when I found this.
Sigils are the Legendary’s sore point, the one reason making them less desirable than a set of Ascendeds.
We are meant to switch stats so we can use our expensive & flamboyant prestige objects in all builds and roles. Yet sigils & runes are a very substantial part of those.
Please implement a choice between a (limited?) set of previously added sigils. Legendaries are expensive enough to justify this.

Limited would be very fair. Maybe an upper limit of 5.

The principle that legendaries are NOT best in slot weapon should be enough reason to change this. It is more effective to not run a legend than to run one because of the swapping. And people swap weps frequently for dungeon speed clear and wvw.

Sigil library where you insert them and then can switch out of combat (like stats) would be awesome.

Tigerlily.3765:

The principle that legendaries are NOT best in slot weapon should be enough reason to change this. It is more effective to not run a legend than to run one because of the swapping. And people swap weps frequently for dungeon speed clear and wvw.

Sigil library where you insert them and then can switch out of combat (like stats) would be awesome.

Well it’s not really more effective, but having several Ascended with the exact same stats but different Sigil is cheaper, and THAT is more effective. The only reason this change needs implementing.

This is a good suggestion and it would be awesome on the part of ANet to implement this for legendaries!

Spoj The Second.7680:

EFWinters.5421:

Why would you ever waste dev time on this?

Such miniscule differences in performance within a game mode that is already the easiest of its kind in any game ever.

You do realise its helpful for wvw players aswell.

Maybe some players. But not enough for it to be a worthwhile development project. Which was my point the entire time.

EFWinters.5421:

Spoj The Second.7680:

EFWinters.5421:

Why would you ever waste dev time on this?

Such miniscule differences in performance within a game mode that is already the easiest of its kind in any game ever.

You do realise its helpful for wvw players aswell.

Maybe some players. But not enough for it to be a worthwhile development project. Which was my point the entire time.

So are things such as new skins, new WvW “traits”, new crafts, upgrading crafts , new recipes etc all a waste of development time too? Not everybody participates in those, yet they have been done.

I agree with the OP. I have Twilight, but I have to uneuip it to put on a different gs because of the sigil in cases such as speed running Arah. Or once I’m done stacking with perception, I want to have some other boost like others do where they swap in some other weapon.

A library of pre-purchased sigils would be great.

Legendary weapons should be over 9000-9000 weapon strength.

Ty.

eleshazar.6902:

I agree with the OP. I have Twilight, but I have to uneuip it to put on a different gs because of the sigil in cases such as speed running Arah. Or once I’m done stacking with perception, I want to have some other boost like others do where they swap in some other weapon.

A library of pre-purchased sigils would be great.

Speedrunning is a small minority of players. It’s important to highlight uses to normal player for something like this to be implemented.

I agree OP, great idea.

Flissy.4093:

Ascended is fine. It’s a lot more reasonable for players to purchase multiple ascended weapons. They tend to cost roughly 50g each, which, while a good sum of money, isn’t out of reach or a lengthy grind to obtain for most of the population now.

Meh, then no thanks to your suggestion. Legendaries are meant to be legendary If you are in the minority of people capable of grinding one keeping a 250 stack of the sigils you use isn’t out of reach or a lengthy grind for you.

wolfpaq.7354:

Flissy.4093:

Ascended is fine. It’s a lot more reasonable for players to purchase multiple ascended weapons. They tend to cost roughly 50g each, which, while a good sum of money, isn’t out of reach or a lengthy grind to obtain for most of the population now.

Meh, then no thanks to your suggestion. Legendaries are meant to be legendary If you are in the minority of people capable of grinding one keeping a 250 stack of the sigils you use isn’t out of reach or a lengthy grind for you.

They shouldn’t have a maintenance cost.

Whats next .. that users with a Legendary should also can change their traits whenever they want just because they have a Legendary ?
If you’re so much a min maxer that different Sigills are really that important, do what all other player do, make more weapons with different sigills and live with it that for that time you don’t see the annoying black clouds of your Twilight.

Flissy.4093:

They shouldn’t have a maintenance cost.

They shouldn’t give any advantage over ascended weapons. A sigil library would be a significant advantage.

Furthermore spending dev time (programming brand new behavior & UI + testing) on something that only benefits a tiny percentage of the population would be a complete waste.

No thanks.

Use an upgrade extractor:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Upgrade_Extractor

problem solved.

Beldin.5498:

If you’re so much a min maxer that different Sigills are really that important, do what all other player do, make more weapons with different sigills and live with it that for that time you don’t see the annoying black clouds of your Twilight.

It’s not just for min maxers. It can benefit all players who don’t want to pin themselves in one content.

wolfpaq.7354:

Flissy.4093:

They shouldn’t have a maintenance cost.

They shouldn’t give any advantage over ascended weapons. A sigil library would be a significant advantage.

Furthermore spending dev time (programming brand new behavior & UI + testing) on something that only benefits a tiny percentage of the population would be a complete waste.

No thanks.

I gave an mathematical example of why it is not an advantage at all. It’s also suggested earlier in the thread that there is a limit on how large the library is, so not every Sigil can be used.

And by your logic, WvW should never receive updates. Open world should never receive updates. PvP should never receive updates. Dungeons should never receive updates (oops, they don’t anyway) because each only affects a small number of the population and not everybody?

TooBz.3065:

Use an upgrade extractor:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Upgrade_Extractor

problem solved.

Flissy.4093:

They shouldn’t have a maintenance cost

Flissy.4093:

TooBz.3065:

Use an upgrade extractor:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Upgrade_Extractor

problem solved.

Flissy.4093:

They shouldn’t have a maintenance cost

I disagree. There is a maintenance cost to every change in this game. No one can just remove or swap out sigils without cost. Either you destroy the sigil or destroy the weapon. I don’t understand why you think legendary users should be able to do it.

Because they are hard to make? What about ascended gear, it’s hard to make. What about Infinite Light? It’s hard to make. Jormag’s Breath, etc…

There’s lots of things that are hard to make. You shouldn’t suddenly be free of the hard choices just because you ground out a legendary. You are already amazingly benefited from being able to swap stats, whereas, every other person in the game is trapped into a single build for (more or less) forever.

TooBz.3065:

There’s lots of things that are hard to make. You shouldn’t suddenly be free of the hard choices just because you ground out a legendary. You are already amazingly benefited from being able to swap stats, whereas, every other person in the game is trapped into a single build for (more or less) forever.

I gave mathematical examples of why it’s better, both effectively and financially, to just have several ascended weapons with different sigils than a Legendary. As for pseudo-legendary like Mjolnir, Infinite Light, and I’d even go as far to say Immobulus, it could be fair to allow it to be included on those. But that’s a different story, the Legendaries are the focus for this thread.

Flissy.4093:

I gave mathematical examples of why it’s better, both effectively and financially, to just have several ascended weapons with different sigils than a Legendary. As for pseudo-legendary like Mjolnir, Infinite Light, and I’d even go as far to say Immobulus, it could be fair to allow it to be included on those. But that’s a different story, the Legendaries are the focus for this thread.

The smart alec response is to say “ANet does not correct player mistakes. You made the legendary, face the consequences.” However, while I understand why you would like this, and I understand that it’s a major pain not to be able to swap out your stuff, the fact remains that there is a substantial cost to everyone else for doing so.

For me, if I swap out a sigil I have to either destroy the existing sigil, destroy the weapon, or use an upgrade extractor. It always comes down to destroying the weapon or the sigil, for you it’s just destroying the sigil (the price on the upgrade extractor is too steep).

You could also create ascended weapons with the desired stats / sigils and run around with them. (As you recommend that I do). You already have your legendary, so that’s a sunk cost and should weigh into whether or not you create an ascended whatever for your sigil of night.

Personally, I would rather have seen the entire system implemented in a more player friendly manner, but I don’t think the answer is to give even more benefits to legendary weapon holders.

Flissy.4093:

Beldin.5498:

If you’re so much a min maxer that different Sigills are really that important, do what all other player do, make more weapons with different sigills and live with it that for that time you don’t see the annoying black clouds of your Twilight.

It’s not just for min maxers. It can benefit all players who don’t want to pin themselves in one content.

Not if i don’t have a Legendary. So everybody without Legendary should buy 20 Ascended that cost more than a Legendary if he thinks he really needed that much different Sigills ?
If it should help all Players then either they totally remove Sigills, or let us swap them for free also on Exotics or yellow items. Everything else is just again a step further to make the game less alt-friendly since i don’t have the money to buy Legendarys for all my 11 toons.

Beldin.5498:

Flissy.4093:

Beldin.5498:

If you’re so much a min maxer that different Sigills are really that important, do what all other player do, make more weapons with different sigills and live with it that for that time you don’t see the annoying black clouds of your Twilight.

It’s not just for min maxers. It can benefit all players who don’t want to pin themselves in one content.

Not if i don’t have a Legendary. So everybody without Legendary should buy 20 Ascended that cost more than a Legendary if he thinks he really needed that much different Sigills ?
If it should help all Players then either they totally remove Sigills, or let us swap them for free also on Exotics or yellow items. Everything else is just again a step further to make the game less alt-friendly since i don’t have the money to buy Legendarys for all my 11 toons.

It would still be cheaper to buy 20 ascended weapons than their equivelent Legendary.

A precedence has been set by allowing Legendaries stat swapping capability. That shows Arena net acknowledge the extra mile taken to obtain Legendaries, and they are willing to add quality of life things to them.

Similar to stat swapping, it in no way makes Legendaries mandatory, or even an upgrade. Because they are still statistically the same as ascended, and still more expensive.

I mean, there’s nothing mathematical about it. Would your change give legendary owners a non-visual advantage over ascended weapon owners? Yes. Therefore, no thanks. You can have your 1 legendary and 7 ascended if min-maxing matters that much to you. Regular chumps like me will have 8 ascended. Legendary items were never intended to give you the functionality of 8 different sigils in 1.

Most companies, including arenanet, try to maintain a utilitarianism approach to their game enhancements. Greatest good for the greatest number. Your change would be a good change for a tiny number of people. On that basis alone it should be disqualified. Hopefully that helps you understand why your analogies are flawed. That isn’t to say legendaries should be neglected. I fully supported arenanet’s visual overhaul to them. After all, they were intended to be awesome visual rewards for the dedicated to the game and their graphics weren’t living up to arenanet’s standards of awesome. A brand new interface with completely new behavior though? Completely unrelated to the intended visual reward? Exclusively for people who own legendaries? No thanks.

wolfpaq.7354:

Greatest good for the greatest number. Your change would be a good change for a tiny number of people.

A good change for a small number of players, but no disadvantage to any other player because it will make Legendaries no better than ascended.

I dont understand why you guys are hating on this idea? Are you just jealous because you dont have legendaries? I really hate this community sometimes. Its a QoL improvement, stop being so negative. And it kind of makes sense that you should be able to swap sigils on 2000g weapons which already allow you to swap stats.

Its convenience on the most expensive weapons. It would be nice if this was added to infinite light and other such skins but then you have to draw a line on what deserves it and what doesnt. For legendaries its pretty clear.

im ok with that but Op argument is not really true, since legendary holder also can get acendend as second set

Balsa.3951:

im ok with that but Op argument is not really true, since legendary holder also can get acendend as second set

Please read the full post before commenting. I acknowledged it’s a possibility, but players shouldn’t have to have what Arena net labeled as the “ultimate weapon” sitting in their bag.

Flissy.4093:

Balsa.3951:

im ok with that but Op argument is not really true, since legendary holder also can get acendend as second set

Please read the full post before commenting. I acknowledged it’s a possibility, but players shouldn’t have to have what Arena net labeled as the “ultimate weapon” sitting in their bag.

Legendaries are the “Ultimate skin”, not “ultimate weapon”. Sad that WoW expatriates can’t figure out this is a grind for skin, not power, game after 1.5 years already.

Substance E.4852:

Flissy.4093:

Balsa.3951:

im ok with that but Op argument is not really true, since legendary holder also can get acendend as second set

Please read the full post before commenting. I acknowledged it’s a possibility, but players shouldn’t have to have what Arena net labeled as the “ultimate weapon” sitting in their bag.

Legendaries are the “Ultimate skin”, not “ultimate weapon”. Sad that WoW expatriates can’t figure out this is a grind for skin, not power, game after 1.5 years already.

It was absolutely labelled as the ultimate weapon. As in one you don’t need to replace, rather than mandatory for statistical improvement. Making Legendaries objectively the best thing would be atrocious.

wolfpaq.7354:

A legendary is a weapon skin. Nothing more. Stop asking for it to be something it’s not. It’s not a bonus 8 slot bag. It’s not a sigils repository. It’s not a ticket to exclusive content. You don’t get to treat sigils just like major traits & utility skills just because you farmed 1500 gold.

Flissy.4093:

We already know ArenaNet are not opposed to Legendary weapons having a unique function, as stat selection was implemented a number of months ago.

It does not put players who do not have a Legendary at any form of disadvantage. It is only a quality of life improvement for those with, resulting in no negative for those who do not.

Stat selection was not implemented exclusively for legendary weapons.

I’ve never had a legendary and I’ve used the system multiple times now.

Yet another bad analogy.

wolfpaq.7354:

Stat selection was not implemented exclusively for legendary weapons.

I’ve never had a legendary and I’ve used the system multiple times now.

Yet another bad analogy.

The only other scenarios of stat selection I am aware of are:

• Redundant magic find items – the stat change was allowed so players would not need to replace their armor.
• Items such as the recent Spinal Backpacks, which, once the stats are selected, are permanent. This could also have been implemented as Arena net were looking for other ways to make ascended items more obtainable, but not funneling the players into 1 stat when doing so.

I can’t think of anymore. I am unaware of any items that allow complete choice of stats outside of combat apart from Legendary – if there are some, please tell me and I will respond accordingly.

With all respect, your argument is beginning to sound spoiled and entitled, “well I can’t have it, so why can they?!”. And that will remain true until you can give reasons why it will make a Legendary weapon mandatory, a tier above Ascended, or impacts a player using Ascended in a negative manner.

My stance is that stat switching is a quality of life feature that ought to be rolled out to ascended and even exotics.

Give legendary users automatic access to all combos and lets ascended/exotic uses collect and build on their stat library.

You seem to be missing the point of my argument. From the very beginning my stance has been “do not develop things just for legendary users, it is a waste of dev time because there are so few of them”. As you pointed out, there have been multiple uses for the stat selection dropdown, and I’m sure there will be more in the future (I believe that one thing you missed is ascended insignia/inscriptions recipe purchasing).

So yeah, great, a cool feature was developed for several reasons, give it to legendary users as well. It’s already something that is going to see widespread uses across the community, no reason to hold it back from legendary users. Let’s be honest, 1 item out of 13-14 PvE gear slots isn’t going to change that much. It’s just a convenience. If you’re changing your build from say zerker to dire that’s 1 less item you have to deal with. I’m totally fine with that.

If for whatever reason a sigil library is developed for all users, say as something you could craft/forge and attach to a weapon, I would be all for giving it to legendary users for free as well. The only thing I don’t want to see, and I believe I’ve been consistent about this, is exclusive game content that only legendary owners can access, which is essentially what your suggestion amounts to, whether you realize it or not.