Guild Wars 2

Azrael.4960:

Let’s take it a step back and look at the fundamentals. As it is, food is a buff. Does it make sense to be? Not really (not that this matters too much in a fantasy setting). Maintenance oils/sharpening stones/tuning crystals are a buff and they make sense to be.

Why do maintenance oils\sharpening stones\tuning crystals make sense as a buff but not food? Whats the logic behind? (Narrative, concept, mechanics, etc?)

Concept wise in a fantasy world, food being a buff makes sense perfectly, even more so than things like sharpening stone and maintenance oils.

For example, why in the world would a sharpening stone convert 5% of my toughness into power? Do I use a sharpening stone to…what…sharpen the horns on my helmet so that I can use it to impale somebody?

In fact, the only thing that makes sense about food is that they should only augment stats, and not things like experience gain, magic find and gold from monsters, because food is by concept an organic consumable that affects the character’s body.

Like why the F would eating an Omnomberry Bar gives me 40% more gold from monsters? Do I suddenly gain the Midas Touch upon eating some magical food?

But gaining power, toughness and vitality after eating food makes sense, no?

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

Fenrir.3609:

I like the customization they offer.

In terms of making content “easy”, the vast majority of the content is already easy, with or without them. If we are going to remove anything that makes it “easier” then are we also going to remove ascended gear, superior runes and sigils? Most of which is not actually needed to complete the content and is instead used to do it more efficiently?

In terms of “balance” with regards to wvw. Well unless you are going to make it like spvp and remove gear disparity altogether, i’m unsure as to the point really. Moreover, if someone has not taken the opportunity to utilize them, well it’s really their fault and no one elses.

In terms of “balance” from a design perspective. I’d rather Anet learned how to balance them instead of removing them altogether.

I agree with Fenrir. The point about WvW is excellent, and I will go further and make the unstated point that these disparities SHOULD exist in WvW. It is what separates WvW from sPvP and makes having both game modes such a great compromise to the pvp community. There are many players who want a pvp environment where they DO benefit from their gear, etc.

A lot of WvW players could honestly care less about food – or what I believe the OP means is consumables (aka food) – in WvW, and many would actually argue that it makes things worse overall and as the OP mentioned, forces ANet into a balance conundrum. WvW players want class balance just as much as sPvP players do. Actually, a lot of WvW players want it even more than sPvP players do, simply because the variety of character builds is so far beyond that of sPvP simply due to the mechanics of sPvP restricting all sorts of forms of play, stat distribution, etc. That said, it’s pretty hard to balance stat sets when you have things like +/- 40% condition duration food being a semi-requirement for all players in WvW, regardless of their build. This alone has led to massive, unresolved disputes regarding condition build potency at certain stages of the game and in various environments.

What I think the better solution is, is that food should simply not be accessible in WvW, just like it is in sPvP, so that the professions can be more adequately balanced in PvP environments as a whole (gear being just a slight form of discrepancy in WvW). Stat foods often just further increase the margin between those with and without the crazy gear/money in WvW, for the guy with full ascended sigiled/runed weapons and armor is going to be the same who is willing to shell out 1.5g every hour they want to PvP. The guy in greens and yellows likely doesn’t have that kind of spare cash to blow.

Now, if they offered regulated-gear form of WvW like sPvP but added a lot more variability to it (fixed weapon/armor tiers and no food, keeping the runes as they are (though strength runes are OP in larger fights), no ferocity/crit damage cap, upscale and traits for 80 regardless of actual level, etc.), I doubt very many people would continue playing WvW at all, and I would exclusively play that mode and never look at the current WvW again.

DeceiverX.8361:

A lot of WvW players could honestly care less about food – or what I believe the OP means is consumables (aka food) – in WvW, and many would actually argue that it makes things worse overall and as the OP mentioned, forces ANet into a balance conundrum. WvW players want class balance just as much as sPvP players do. Actually, a lot of WvW players want it even more than sPvP players do, simply because the variety of character builds is so far beyond that of sPvP simply due to the mechanics of sPvP restricting all sorts of forms of play, stat distribution, etc. That said, it’s pretty hard to balance stat sets when you have things like +/- 40% condition duration food being a semi-requirement for all players in WvW, regardless of their build. This alone has led to massive, unresolved disputes regarding condition build potency at certain stages of the game and in various environments.

What I think the better solution is, is that food should simply not be accessible in WvW, just like it is in sPvP, so that the professions can be more adequately balanced in PvP environments as a whole (gear being just a slight form of discrepancy in WvW). Stat foods often just further increase the margin between those with and without the crazy gear/money in WvW, for the guy with full ascended sigiled/runed weapons and armor is going to be the same who is willing to shell out 1.5g every hour they want to PvP. The guy in greens and yellows likely doesn’t have that kind of spare cash to blow.

Now, if they offered regulated-gear form of WvW like sPvP but added a lot more variability to it (fixed weapon/armor tiers and no food, keeping the runes as they are (though strength runes are OP in larger fights), no ferocity/crit damage cap, upscale and traits for 80 regardless of actual level, etc.), I doubt very many people would continue playing WvW at all, and I would exclusively play that mode and never look at the current WvW again.

I disagree.

I think the differentiation between WvW and sPvP is perfect as it currently is. The normalized system in sPvP goes well with the focus in small team fights with emphasis on build variation (and synergy) between players, players’ skill, as well as the non-combat aspect of sPvP.

However, WvW should be as holistic as it can be – given that focus is on large scale battles and sieges, what differentiates one “army” from the other is the total sum of its prowess, that means taking into consideration all things: strategy, good commanding, numbers, morale of players, mentality of players AND ALSO differences in quality of equipment, buffs (consumables) etc.

Ideally, WvW is an aspect of the game where one can say “our server beats your server because, hey look, everyone in our world gives their time and effort to polish our equipment, prepare our food before our fights, calling in more people to participate, coordinating our attacks based on our consolidated power, etc”.

Because really in a zerg fight (or a play-pretend large battle), how much difference do build variety and player’s skill make? It should be the sum of these small things that make the difference.

UnitedChaos.8364:

I didn’t enjoy the concept of having to use consumables to complete certain content in the game. In Guild Wars 1 the use of the three consumables was referred to as a “conset”. These consets were used to do high-level end game content, and, basically, became a requirement for that content. Consets became an important part of the Guild Wars 1 economy and there were people dedicated to crafting these consets for end-game content players. If you don’t know what I am talking about or don’t remember, use this link (Conset). To emphasize, these consets were a requirement..

I don’t mean to be “that kitten” but after the 7 hero update I was able to perform significantly well with hero teams without the use of consets. Mercenaries just made it insanely easier (granted, that was something I purchased). Surgeway, Necroway, Discord and I could go on…

There was absolutely no “need” for a conset or the attached elitists that felt like always running with consets. Consets just shaved time off of a run – UWSC could take 45 minutes or about 25 minutes with a conset. DoASC could take 90 minutes or about 45 minutes with a conset. There wasn’t any spectacular “need” for consets other than speedclearing at ultrafast pace.

While I don’t necessarily agree with the elitist concept of consumables and I definitely don’t want to see this game sink into a consumables-required community, I don’t find them detrimental to the game in its current state.

I don’t see any reason to remove something just because some players are better at understanding it than others. HOWEVER, I would like to maybe offer an addendum to your overall idea of consumables:

REVISIT CONSUMABLES
In Guild Wars 1, I felt consumables were much simpler and easier to understand. Overpowered? Sure. But they also couldn’t be used in PvP so they could expand that idea into overpowered consumables not being used in PvP – thus making PvP balancing easier while leaving PvE and WvW largely untouched since enemy AI and siege tactics don’t really give a crap about balance issues (If you want a challenge, make a handicap for yourself – use less traits, use crappy builds – it’s not completely ANet’s prerogative to make content more challenging for the individual).

I agree with food that increases things like MF, money drops, active boon application and whatnot but plain boosts to stats is a bad thing in my eyes especially since there are a select few foods that negate certain forms of combat.

I am okay with the removal of most of the passive stat buff food but food that applies boons and stats through active gameplay and food that increases xp/karma/mf is fine.

projectcedric.6951:

Azrael.4960:

Let’s take it a step back and look at the fundamentals. As it is, food is a buff. Does it make sense to be? Not really (not that this matters too much in a fantasy setting). Maintenance oils/sharpening stones/tuning crystals are a buff and they make sense to be.

Why do maintenance oils\sharpening stones\tuning crystals make sense as a buff but not food? Whats the logic behind? (Narrative, concept, mechanics, etc?)

Concept wise in a fantasy world, food being a buff makes sense perfectly, even more so than things like sharpening stone and maintenance oils.

For example, why in the world would a sharpening stone convert 5% of my toughness into power? Do I use a sharpening stone to…what…sharpen the horns on my helmet so that I can use it to impale somebody?

In fact, the only thing that makes sense about food is that they should only augment stats, and not things like experience gain, magic find and gold from monsters, because food is by concept an organic consumable that affects the character’s body.

Like why the F would eating an Omnomberry Bar gives me 40% more gold from monsters? Do I suddenly gain the Midas Touch upon eating some magical food?

But gaining power, toughness and vitality after eating food makes sense, no?

Food making you stronger makes much more sense than armour making you stronger. Sharpening your weapons giving a damage bonus makes a lot more sense than armour giving you a damage bonus.

I say get rid of stat boosts on armour.

projectcedric.6951:

I disagree.

I think the differentiation between WvW and sPvP is perfect as it currently is. The normalized system in sPvP goes well with the focus in small team fights with emphasis on build variation (and synergy) between players, players’ skill, as well as the non-combat aspect of sPvP.

However, WvW should be as holistic as it can be – given that focus is on large scale battles and sieges, what differentiates one “army” from the other is the total sum of its prowess, that means taking into consideration all things: strategy, good commanding, numbers, morale of players, mentality of players AND ALSO differences in quality of equipment, buffs (consumables) etc.

Ideally, WvW is an aspect of the game where one can say “our server beats your server because, hey look, everyone in our world gives their time and effort to polish our equipment, prepare our food before our fights, calling in more people to participate, coordinating our attacks based on our consolidated power, etc”.

Because really in a zerg fight (or a play-pretend large battle), how much difference do build variety and player’s skill make? It should be the sum of these small things that make the difference.

While it’s fair to disagree, and WvW is a coordinated effort, one must consider the important effects of Havoc Squads and small elite roaming group necessary for contesting, capturing, and holding smaller objectives and claiming critical areas at the right times rather than just the zerg. A lot of WvW-based players left GW2 altogether due to the current emphasis on the zerg. It creates a fairly unhealthy environment and does exactly what you mentioned; it reduces the sense of significance of the individual.

What define T1 servers and T1 WvW guilds is exactly the opposite of what you’re claiming, too. Organization among a group of players – while strictly larger than that of sPvP – is absolutely critical, and often times one’s status of actually being allowed into a guild or even allowed to remain a member of a guild rides solely on the individual’s capability to perform under stress and under a multitude of situations, both functioning alone and when included in smaller group dynamics. I’ve personally seen quite a few players dumped from guilds for not exclusively jump-dodging due to the very slight increase in evasion frames it gives, being kicked for dying while in a zerg while barred from TS to demonstrate the capacity of skilled individual play, and the likes. These groups often run no commander tags and are often extremely exclusive as well. If you want to run with the best, you need to be the best, and I think a lot of people neglect to consider just how impactful these groups are. WvW has various elements of strategy on this level, and a demand for small high-impact skillgroups to come out ahead in ppt over another server. Zergs aren’t so much dominant due to their inherent effectiveness, but because of how effective and reliable they are, and how little coordination it takes to make one capture land.

And that’s precisely it. A zerg is but a summation of its parts. If you have a zerg of inadequate players – disorganized with little PvP knowledge and mislead – they rightfully should lose to a heavily-skilled group consisting of but a few. Is it necessary to halt a group of 40 with another group of 40, taking the focus off of a critical capture on another server’s land just to defend a tower from a different invading force? It shouldn’t be, and in many cases, it isn’t.

There are plenty of people out there who can 1v5 – 1v10 – solo keep/SMC capture, and many of these people actually do. Is their food any more effective than their opponents’? Last I checked, it wasn’t. They win these fights because of their capabilities as individuals. If everyone has food, how is it different from a situation in which everyone has none?

It just seems illogical to market part of a game as PvP when it is balanced by PvE standards, which are way off the mark from sPvP.

@Wanderer:
You could interpret it that because you’ve leveled up and subsequently gotten proficient enough in combat to wear it that you have rightfully gained the capacity to be more proficient offensively, and that the stat bonuses are representations of character attribute gains. Conversely, eating a fruit tart and getting stronger makes even less sense, for one could even argue heavier armor on one’s arm if swung at the same speed as before would grant more destructive power to a weapon due to the increased momentum of the heavier arm (and subsequently a sword acting as a lever) from gravity.

DeceiverX.8361:

While it’s fair to disagree, and WvW is a coordinated effort…

What define T1 servers and T1 WvW guilds is exactly the opposite of what you’re claiming, too….

And that’s precisely it. A zerg is but a summation of its parts…

There are plenty of people out there who can 1v5 – 1v10 – solo keep/SMC capture, and many of these people actually do. Is their food any more effective than their opponents’? Last I checked, it wasn’t. They win these fights because of their capabilities as individuals. If everyone has food, how is it different from a situation in which everyone has none?

It just seems illogical to market part of a game as PvP when it is balanced by PvE standards, which are way off the mark from sPvP.

You’ll forgive me if I don’t take your word for a lot of things that you’ve said here. Mainly because I have never encountered any of your examples, nor any proof given, and that makes them fairly anecdotal for me.

For example, I have never seen someone “1v5 SMC capture”(whatever that means even) and find the idea very improbable. At the very least, skilled players can 1v5 some stragglers or roamers, or escape unscathed from a small group, but to say that there’s “plenty of people out there” that can 1v10 solo keep defies common behavior-not to say maths- in a way that if it is so, we don’t need to be zerging anymore (why dont we just call 10 of these people and ask them each to take one keep, castle and smc?).

There would be some kind of furor among the designers if this was a fairly common thing. Also, I can’t see how having full ascended gears plus food -versus players using even white equipment with no food at all- would give anyone that much of statistical advantage so as to allow them to take a keep against 5-10 people by themselves. Enemies must be sleeping at that point.

(Here, though, I have some semblance of proof at least. If you look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv96bvxO9ds

…one would realize how already difficult it is to take a flag point 1v5 (and even so he eventually had reinforcements in the ends, he only held out 1v5 for long enough) much so take smc 1v10 as you claim. Please show me a video or a stream of somebody doing so, I’m really interested to see.)

Moreover, you’ll also forgive me if I don’t understand a lot of the things that you’re saying, or at least how they are supposed to be an argument for why food shouldn’t be allowed in WvW. For example…

DeceiverX.8361:

Zergs aren’t so much dominant due to their inherent effectiveness, but because of how effective and reliable they are

…

and…

DeceiverX.8361:

And that’s precisely it. A zerg is but a summation of its parts. If you have a zerg of inadequate players – disorganized with little PvP knowledge and mislead – they rightfully should lose to a heavily-skilled group consisting of but a few. Is it necessary to halt a group of 40 with another group of 40, taking the focus off of a critical capture on another server’s land just to defend a tower from a different invading force? It shouldn’t be, and in many cases, it isn’t.

For the latter, what’s your point? Let’s say that you are right, that it isn’t necessary to halt a group of 40 with another 40 all the time (and not circumstantial), and then so? How does this show that food should be removed from WvW? At the very least I should say that food should help the smaller, heavily-skilled group to take on the bigger zerg, and it would be the fault of the bigger zerg for maybe not eating food. For had it been the other way around, they had more chances of mitigating the fact that they lack skill. In fact, this is an argument for favor of food usage in WvW.

You have however touched on an interesting point in the end:

“Is WvW PvP?”

Personally speaking, I don’t think completely so. And this is because of the way the WvW battle lands are designed compared to sPvP maps. Firstly, in WvW there are both enemy NPC’s and enemy players, and you can even harvest crafting materials. In sPvP, these elements of the game are removed. Secondly, in order to capture a tower in WvW, there are 2 things that hinder you: NPC lords and enemy players. In order to capture a point in sPvP, you have to fight purely other players.

Based on this, we can look at it this way: if sPvP is an aspect of the game that is to closer to “arena” type games and farthest away from role-play, and PvE is the closest to role-play, WvW is the overlap. It is PvE with PvP liberties. In truth, we don’t necessarily have to fight each other for all to benefit, as has been demonstrated by EoTM, but its more fun when we do fight each other.

That being said, normalization of equipment and removal of things like food and nourishment in WvW, which is both PvE and PvP, doesn’t match with the holistic idea of it.

Actually, my qualm with food and consumables is that is seems as though they aren’t well thought out conceptually. It seems as if the designers just went “oh, we have a list of bonus combinations equally spread among the different stats, and then let’s just match them with random food”.

Had it been polished out conceptually, maybe it would have went something like this:

Food heavy on meat – increases power and vitality.

Spicy food – increases Ferocity (since one would tend to be fired up upon consumption of spicy food)

Pumpkin dishes and the likes – increases precision (Vitamin A is good for your eyes)

Fruit delicacies – increases healing (Vitamin C)

Food heavy on herbs – decreases condition duration (more resistance to poison and ailments)

Carbs heavy food like pizzas- increases endurance (stamina) regeneration.

…and so on and so forth. And then…

Sharperning stones – increases weapon damage of melee weapons by a small percentage of base.

Maintenance oils – increases weapon damage of ranged weapons by a small percentage of base.

Tuning crystals – increases weapon damage of magic weapons by a small percentage of base.

…and things like Magic Find, Experience Gain, Gold From Monsters, Karma gain will be solely from Boosts.

But then again, I understand the complexity of designing for massively multiplayer games. MAYBE they did thought it out and decided that other considerations like mechanics are more important than role-play concept.

@OP

I’m sorry, but consumables were NOT REQUIRED to play GW1 or its end game zones.

Simply no. Just no.

“conset” was introduced in EOTN. How do you think people did UW/FoW/Deep/Urgoz/DoA before EOTN? Right! NO CONSET!

People used consumables and consets BECAUSE THEY COULD, because the option was there, and because it made runs slightly faster.

You could do all end game zones WITHOUT CONSUMABLES.

One of the MAIN USES of consumables, was to maintain the gimmicky Shadow Form skill.

I dont like consumables either. Personally i feel its like cheating, like dope. At first i thought yeah, removing them would be good.

Then i realized. I pride myself on beating content without F&N. When i beat Liadri, i was overjoyed. Looked to my right and saw another Blazing Light. On my left, another. I dont know if they used food to gain the title or not. But there was the chance that they did. I could tell myself that even though hundreds if not thousands can beat Liadri, that number is probably boosted by the advantage given by F&N.

So yeah. Unless it hurts me directly, i have no issue with F&N. Let them use it. Just dont drag me into it.

On the other hand i avoid WvW mostly because of this. In there, not using F&N is like a “kick me hard” label on my back.

projectcedric.6951:

Azrael.4960:

Let’s take it a step back and look at the fundamentals. As it is, food is a buff. Does it make sense to be? Not really (not that this matters too much in a fantasy setting). Maintenance oils/sharpening stones/tuning crystals are a buff and they make sense to be.

Why do maintenance oils\sharpening stones\tuning crystals make sense as a buff but not food? Whats the logic behind? (Narrative, concept, mechanics, etc?)

Concept wise in a fantasy world, food being a buff makes sense perfectly, even more so than things like sharpening stone and maintenance oils.

For example, why in the world would a sharpening stone convert 5% of my toughness into power? Do I use a sharpening stone to…what…sharpen the horns on my helmet so that I can use it to impale somebody?

I’m only replying to this since the rest of it is largely nonsense.

How a sharpening stone or maintenance oil buffs you is not the point. It’s the concept of a sharpening stone improving your combat potential that makes sense; you have sharper weapons, your sword cuts better.

How it was done was to maintain balance. Could you imagine it being linked to Precision or Ferocity instead?

As for maintenance oils, you oil your leathers, grease the rifle barrels, polish your bow staff and otherwise keep your weaponry clean means it will function better and fire more accurately, simple concept no?

Again, how it was achieved as a buff was to maintain balance. Imagine the buff being tied to power or ferocity?

Crystals of one form or another are the staple of fantasy RPGs and since Power and precision obtained a buff, as both improve outgoing damage, then condition damage obviously has to have its own temporary buff to keep it balanced.

How a chocolate chip cookie gives me anything but a sugar rush (or more likely a sugar headache), let alone a boost to my precision and healing, is not logical to me.

Can some of the people advertising taking out F&N explain to me again why we would want to reduce players’ ability to customize and adapt?

-Is it really adding to your overall experience?
Yes. absolutly.
Cooking is the most interesting crafting discipline there is.
I still have not discovered all recepies there are. (not using a guide) but by now have managed to know where to get all the ingredients.
Creating, using and testing different foodstuff adds more interest for me.
-Does it make things too easy?
No, there is enough contentwise where I can still keep improving my gameplay.
Too easy is only something you do too often and is always the same and have nothing to surprise you.
-Do I always use it? Why?
not always, but for leveling: yes and for WvW mostly (but I keep forgetting ^^).
-Do I usually win 1v1 fights against those who don’t use it?
Nothing to do with only the food – there are things like build or class balance in which the food is only a tiny tip of iceberg or just playing badly in that moment.
-Do I craft my own for fun? Or just buy it off the TP?
I only eat selfcrafted food!
There is this part of my gametime which is dedicated to excursions to restock different needed ingredients, as I do not buy ingredients from the TP aswell.
I do that because I like doing it and it is fun for me (I heard other people like to do dungeons…)
-Do I offer it to other people when I see them without it? Why?
I regularly feed special friends without the cooking profession on their request or offer some if someone says they have run out and we are in the middle of something.

What I would like to see is a balance overhaul, atm there are 4-5 major foods that are frequently used and the rest….well is not as usefull.
It is more fun to produce more different stuff.

Go back to discovery in crafting, dropping recipies are such a bane (and pain) and the ones that were added recently lack…sense and usefullness.

And potions…ahrg. It could have been as good as cooking. But it just isnt. Sadly.

Azrael.4960:

Crystals of one form or another are the staple of fantasy RPGs and since Power and precision obtained a buff, as both improve outgoing damage, then condition damage obviously has to have its own temporary buff to keep it balanced.

How a chocolate chip cookie gives me anything but a sugar rush (or more likely a sugar headache), let alone a boost to my precision and healing, is not logical to me.

But food giving buffs or healing the player is also staple to a lot of rpgs: WoW, Runescape, Ragnarok Online, Maplestory, Elder Scrolls, Atlantica etc. In fact it’s the first thing, along with potions, that comes into mind when one is thinking about “consumables that gives buff to character”.

Food/Nourishment boons work fine as it is. Could it be better? Of course, but the removal isn’t necessary. GW2 already got rid of health/mana/etc. potion-consumables that are found in other mmos.

1. Is it really adding to your overall experience?
2. Does it make things too easy?
3. Do I always use it? Why?
4. Do I usually win 1v1 fights against those who don’t use it?
5. Do I craft my own for fun? Or just buy it off the TP?
6. Do I offer it to other people when I see them without it? Why?

1. It is giving me more options to fine tune my setup. Food, runes, stats on gear and stats from traits are all part of what makes you build and each of them can be used to fill a hole in your build.
2. The only example I know of food making things too easy was Omnomberry Ghosts that allowed glass cannons to heal ridiculous amounts. That was fixed though.
3. I use food whenever I feel that the stats are filling a necessary hole (WvW) or when my choice of activity results in resource gain that far outweighs the costs of using the food.
4. I haven’t really paid attention to that. However, there is no simple answer, it depends on what your food is doing for you. If your food is your single source of condition protection and you don’t use it, yes it’s going to change things. If your food is just another 5% damage on top of your full glass cannon spec, no it’s not going to change a thing.
5. Personally I craft my own food but I buy whatever ingredients I happen to missing from the TP. This was mostly because I felt that the massive amount of chef resources in my bank would be better used for myself than for selling for gold.
6. I would give appropriate food to a friend who is missing theirs if our activity fulfills the aforementioned requirements for using food. Of course this is only applicable if the food I have at hand happens to be useful to them.

I can understand why people would argue for the removal of food. For some, it’s an element of stat imbalance. For some, the fact that food can fill some very large holes is a sign that it’s too strong. Personally, I think that straight up removal of food would be bad because it would bring some serious imbalances due to the holes that food can fill. Even if you tweak all professions so that they wouldn’t need food, you’d still end up with forcing people to go to certain specs due to the tweaks made. And that is never a good idea. As for tuning down food, it’s also not a very good idea as there is no build that is made impervious by adding a food item to it, so lowering the numbers would be no different from a generic nerf.

thaooo.5320:

@OP

I’m sorry, but consumables were NOT REQUIRED to play GW1 or its end game zones.

Simply no. Just no.

“conset” was introduced in EOTN. How do you think people did UW/FoW/Deep/Urgoz/DoA before EOTN? Right! NO CONSET!

People used consumables and consets BECAUSE THEY COULD, because the option was there, and because it made runs slightly faster.

You could do all end game zones WITHOUT CONSUMABLES.

One of the MAIN USES of consumables, was to maintain the gimmicky Shadow Form skill.

While I certainly agree with this to some degree, after consets were introduced there was a rather sad rise in SC groups that would only use consets and you were required to pay the conset holder 1k as compensation.

Besides, when people ran SCs before consets, it took twice as long. I addressed this in my previous post. So I think saying consets weren’t required is overstepping the line. More precisely, they just weren’t needed. However, based on community responses, consets were required.

Back in GW 1, consets never bothered me much. I was a seller, but it didn’t require much farming at all. If you just kept playing normally (advancing characters, doing dungeons, etc), before you realized it you already had almost everything needed. Then you just farmed a couple of feather stacks (which was pretty quick, btw) and voilla! 10 consets. I usually sold 7 and kept 3 for my guild.

However, the GW 2 system seems so messed up in comparison, I can’t help but to agree with your post.

Unfortunately, I don’t think they’ll ever remove consumables, because it’s a massive money sink for the economy – and they desperately need those, considering the way things are. The fact that there’s food to improve your magic find is enough proof of how much grinding is emphasized in GW 2.

I actually like consumables in GW2 because they’re plenty, varied and generally quite cheap. However, the point was brought of PvP and in that one I have to ask: “WHOSE MORON’S WAS THE IDEA TO MAKE IT AVAILABLE IN ANY KIND OF PVP?!?!?!” Seriously, mate, THIS is ridiculously stupid.
Otherwise, it’s one of the few things that help me get a bit more variety, there’s never enough mFind and I quite like crafting, so, perfectly fine with them in all forms of PvE

Vile Lasagna.1369:

I actually like consumables in GW2 because they’re plenty, varied and generally quite cheap. However, the point was brought of PvP and in that one I have to ask: “WHOSE MORON’S WAS THE IDEA TO MAKE IT AVAILABLE IN ANY KIND OF PVP?!?!?!” Seriously, mate, THIS is ridiculously stupid.
Otherwise, it’s one of the few things that help me get a bit more variety, there’s never enough mFind and I quite like crafting, so, perfectly fine with them in all forms of PvE

It’s not was anyone’s moron’s. Having your gear and consumables impact PvP is a perfectly reasonable idea. So is not having your gear and consumables impact PvP. As a compromise, we have both game modes. Granted, this isn’t the only difference between sPvP and WvW, so it’s not surprising to find WvWers who don’t want gear and consumables (or sPvPers who do?). But I think you overstate it a bit. Doesn’t it make sense that some players might want to see how all the gear and consumables they’ve acquired helps their character measure up against other player characters?

DeceiverX.8361:

You could interpret it that because you’ve leveled up and subsequently gotten proficient enough in combat to wear it that you have rightfully gained the capacity to be more proficient offensively, and that the stat bonuses are representations of character attribute gains.

That might make sense if armour didn’t have six tiers with ascending being far superior to plain white.

Let’s face it, GW2 (and any MMO I’ve played) isn’t even trying to be realistic. The weapons aren’t realistic, the armour isn’t realistic, the food and drink aren’t realistic. Even the fact that you can run endlessly without getting tired aren’t realistic.

Is food fair? Not really, but then neither are guard stacks, or boosters.

Harper.4173:

Can some of the people advertising taking out F&N explain to me again why we would want to reduce players’ ability to customize and adapt?

Leading everyone back on subject, I would like to share my point of view since I didn’t in the initial post. I know everyone’s going to be like “let’s take that one step further and remove armor” just stop…. I’ve heard enough of it. Yes, we could take it that step further; but just go troll elsewhere.

-Is it really adding to your overall experience?
Absolutely not. I find having to open the trade post, buy the one or two F&N I use all the time, run to the trade post to get them, and double clicking them not fun at all. In fact I find it rather tedious and pretty boring.

-Does it make things too easy?
Anything that increases your stats makes things easier. Too easy? Not really, but definitely easier.

-Do I always use it? Why?
Yes, if I can be better why not? Albeit tedious.

-Do I usually win 1v1 fights against those who don’t use it?
Yup, I feel more confident going into battle with say additional health regeneration with a rangers already 1.3k hp regeneration build. Although it’s probably just my skill level over the F&N really contributing to my win. It’s definitely a placebo effect.

-Do I craft my own for fun? Or just buy it off the TP?
Nope, I’ll just buy of the tp. I spent the 10s for several hours of unskillful buffs.

-Do I offer it to other people when I see them without it? Why?
Yup, a ranger running spotter (+150 precision to all allies) is great; but if I can give an addition +x to allies for 5c, why not? It’s pretty painful to see people playing high level fractals requiring “experience players only” not running F&N and dying, and then see them do fine with F&N after use.

I’d like to thank everyone for being relatively civil so far and for the very interesting, thoughtful posts.

UnitedChaos.8364:

Leading everyone back on subject, I would like to share my point of view since I didn’t in the initial post. I know everyone’s going to be like “let’s take that one step further and remove armor” just stop…. I’ve heard enough of it. Yes, we could take it that step further; but just go troll elsewhere.

-Is it really adding to your overall experience?
Absolutely not. I find having to open the trade post, buy the one or two F&N I use all the time, run to the trade post to get them, and double clicking them not fun at all. In fact I find it rather tedious and pretty boring.

-Does it make things too easy?
Anything that increases your stats makes things easier. Too easy? Not really, but definitely easier.

-Do I always use it? Why?
Yes, if I can be better why not? Albeit tedious.

-Do I usually win 1v1 fights against those who don’t use it?
Yup, I feel more confident going into battle with say additional health regeneration with a rangers already 1.3k hp regeneration build. Although it’s probably just my skill level over the F&N really contributing to my win. It’s definitely a placebo effect.

-Do I craft my own for fun? Or just buy it off the TP?
Nope, I’ll just buy of the tp. I spent the 10s for several hours of unskillful buffs.

-Do I offer it to other people when I see them without it? Why?
Yup, a ranger running spotter (+150 precision to all allies) is great; but if I can give an addition +x to allies for 5c, why not? It’s pretty painful to see people playing high level fractals requiring “experience players only” not running F&N and dying, and then see them do fine with F&N after use.

---

I’d like to thank everyone for being relatively civil so far and for the very interesting, thoughtful posts.

Well… based on everyone’s answers, its safe to say at least that your opinion over the matter is of the minority, aint it?

Although of course 10 or so people isn’t exactly a reliable statistical population.

UnitedChaos.8364:

I know everyone’s going to be like “let’s take that one step further and remove armor” just stop…. I’ve heard enough of it. Yes, we could take it that step further; but just go troll elsewhere.
…
…
…
I’d like to thank everyone for being relatively civil so far and for the very interesting, thoughtful posts.

You mean you’d like to thank everyone that agrees with you. Because anyone that doesn’t is just a troll and shouldn’t comment on your thread. How very nice of you.

Could work but you would have to re-inverse everyone that put time and effort maxing out cooking, not sure on how you would go about that though.

Azhure.1857:

UnitedChaos.8364:

I know everyone’s going to be like “let’s take that one step further and remove armor” just stop…. I’ve heard enough of it. Yes, we could take it that step further; but just go troll elsewhere.
…
…
…
I’d like to thank everyone for being relatively civil so far and for the very interesting, thoughtful posts.

You mean you’d like to thank everyone that agrees with you. Because anyone that doesn’t is just a troll and shouldn’t comment on your thread. How very nice of you.

I was actually being quite sincere for those that disagreed for having thoughtful posts. Thanks.

I agree, however, to save cook, do keep consumables that increase magic find, gold from monsters ect.

I agree with OP mainly because F&N are not balanced.
If i get -40% condi duration in wvw, why isn’t there a food that reduces physical dmg by 40%?
Logic please.

sMihaly.1492:

I agree with OP mainly because F&N are not balanced.
If i get -40% condi duration in wvw, why isn’t there a food that reduces physical dmg by 40%?
Logic please.

Because there isn’t a food that gives +40% physical damage either?

That’s not a fair reason.
I tried to point to the fact, that +/- 40% of anything shouldn’t exist at all.

If you use +40% condi duration food, that -40% on enemis won’t mean that you have your normal condi duration on them, but much less. Not to mention Melandru runes.
Conditions should influence WvW gameplay at least as much as normal dmg does.

Now it’s only take this food -> enemies will get tired of doing no dmg with conditions -> they will change build -> you don’t need to care about conditions anymore.
#FairBalance.

Oh… wait.. i suspect it is intended to be so, because less conditions mean less pressure on servers. What about reducing boon durations as well? I’m sure its a good idea in terms of bandwidth usage balance.

Harper.4173:

Again, I hope you realize that saying that F&N in this game is holding back players from engaging in content immediately and making the game worse is rather …skewed.

I think I made it clear earlier that I think it’s a minor annoyance, not a huge one, but perhaps I didn’t. My description you responded to was an attempt to paraphrase what ArenaNet said about their design goal of being able to jump into fun, not preparing to have fun, not describe what’s going on in GW2. Obviously no one is spending a half hour getting cons together before dungeon runs or WvW.

Still, there is the small tedium of making sure to stock up, as well as making sure to periodically consume. And on the balance, I don’t think there’s positives from cons that outweigh that tedium.

I think you could also make a good case for cons adding another element that skews builds toward min/max one trick ponies. People add up runes and cons to get silly amounts of condition duration reduction or push glass cannon spike damage even further.

As I stated earlier, though, I don’t think it’s practical to remove them at this point, so my contribution to the discussion is purely from a theoretical point of view. It’d only really matter when they sit down to start planning out GW3.

As someone who does a lot of WvWvW I absolutely support the removal of consumables. They do imbalance the game tremendously. Unfortunately I very much doubt ANet would do away with one of their gold sinks so easily.

People who say nourishment is a minor advantage I dont think so. If you look at the WvW montages on youtube the player ALWAYS has a nourishment buff and of course owns the group without them of course they are skilled without a doubt but playing against 5 people is quite hard without nourishments isnt it ?

Its pretty clear that two players with the equal skill lvl would make a hell out of a fight without the buff but if one uses nourishments its pretty clear who is gonna win.

However the people you can kill while they use nourishments are most of the time people who just started the game or are bad at it I dont have anything against nourishments if upscaled players use them or in PvE but in WvW the advantage is just to big.

If you still aren’t convinced think about why you can’t use nourishments in PvP, well and my biggest problem with them they are honestly quite expensive if you safe coins for multiple characters or legendaries

I’ve always hated consets in GW1, and I hate consumables in GW2 today. It has always been a terrible idea.

sMihaly.1492:

I agree with OP mainly because F&N are not balanced.
If i get -40% condi duration in wvw, why isn’t there a food that reduces physical dmg by 40%?
Logic please.

sMihaly.1492:

That’s not a fair reason.
I tried to point to the fact, that +/- 40% of anything shouldn’t exist at all.

If you use +40% condi duration food, that -40% on enemis won’t mean that you have your normal condi duration on them, but much less. Not to mention Melandru runes.
Conditions should influence WvW gameplay at least as much as normal dmg does.

Now it’s only take this food -> enemies will get tired of doing no dmg with conditions -> they will change build -> you don’t need to care about conditions anymore.
#FairBalance.

Oh… wait.. i suspect it is intended to be so, because less conditions mean less pressure on servers. What about reducing boon durations as well? I’m sure its a good idea in terms of bandwidth usage balance.

“Protection” says hello.

And Toughness asks “You forgot about me?”

The +/- 40% Duration food is massively overpowered, no doubt. But otherwise I think Food increases the build diversity and is something that sets WvW apart from sPvP.

NAGASIRENBEAST.5937:

If you still aren’t convinced think about why you can’t use nourishments in PvP……

Exactly my point. If ANET thought they were balanced, they would have allowed use in pvp too.

Why remove them if there no point in them then thers no harm done and it cant take away from the experience and the few people who enjoy it can well enjoy it.

When cooking was first revealed I was dead against prolific consumables because I though they’d be costly and required. Today I’m actually irritated when people are extremely lazy/cheap and don’t use them. The other day in FotM, the final boss, we had an AFK and everyone was dreading the fight (we had an average PUG). I couldn’t even sell them on using food/potions, and I even put out a BL trader.

Some F&N is OP, that much I agree with, but when it comes to imbalance it’s not even close to sigils+runes.

So, no. Either make them all more accessible or put in some restrictions.

They’re tedious to manage and give an advantage to people who are willing to put up with that. They should be removed, or be something you unlock and can access from your inventory freely once you’ve discovered it.

aliksyian.7642:

They’re tedious to manage and give an advantage to people who are willing to put up with that. They should be removed, or be something you unlock and can access from your inventory freely once you’ve discovered it.

So because you’re to lazy to use them, everyone else should be punished.

’Gotcha.

Please go play sPvP if you don’t want to see foods and nourishment in your PvP experience. They add complexity to WvW and that’s just fine by me.

I maxed out Chef as my first completed profession. I don’t give a flying cat about the stats of food. I thought it was fun discovering recepies(without looking them up), and making food for guildmates and nice people I could feed.

That accounted for 70% of my gameplay. It was geared to sustain my cooking. That’s the only reason I traveled as much. To get ingredients.

kitten was fun.

mcarswell.3768:

sure, why don’t we dumb the game down even more. how about removing traits also?

UnitedChaos.8364:

-Increases balance in WvW.
(Since F&N isn’t a requirement not every body uses it. For example, you come across a player who is using F&N while you aren’t. Your defeat usually is quick and painless.)

If you’re losing 1v1 to a player using food and you’re not, it’s not because of the food. That player obviously cares about maximizing his performance while you obviously don’t, which probably carries over to other aspects of your gameplay.

Bad argument. Let’s leave it at that. I don’t even agree we don’t need nourishments anymore, but there are so many other factors involved in one on one that have nothing to do with the temporary buffs. In short, your views about caring about these buffs as inherently meaning that the player said “maximized” character is naturally more skilled because he cares about maximizing his performance (and of course, the other player “doesn’t care” or “not as much”) are utterly false.

Some builds do better against others, granted players with similar skill levels, and regardless buffs. Don’t come here preaching that maximizing every bit of your character = being skilled at GW2.

There’s NOTHING wrong with maximizing, but there is with saying that doing it means you are inherently the better player. It’s utter (and silly) arrogance.

projectcedric.6951:

Azrael.4960:

Let’s take it a step back and look at the fundamentals. As it is, food is a buff. Does it make sense to be? Not really (not that this matters too much in a fantasy setting). Maintenance oils/sharpening stones/tuning crystals are a buff and they make sense to be.

Why do maintenance oils\sharpening stones\tuning crystals make sense as a buff but not food? Whats the logic behind? (Narrative, concept, mechanics, etc?)

Concept wise in a fantasy world, food being a buff makes sense perfectly, even more so than things like sharpening stone and maintenance oils.

For example, why in the world would a sharpening stone convert 5% of my toughness into power? Do I use a sharpening stone to…what…sharpen the horns on my helmet so that I can use it to impale somebody?

In fact, the only thing that makes sense about food is that they should only augment stats, and not things like experience gain, magic find and gold from monsters, because food is by concept an organic consumable that affects the character’s body.

Like why the F would eating an Omnomberry Bar gives me 40% more gold from monsters? Do I suddenly gain the Midas Touch upon eating some magical food?

But gaining power, toughness and vitality after eating food makes sense, no?

Apparently the concept of magic is lost on you. You said yourself that this is a Fantasy world.

Dee Jay.2460:

The +/- 40% Duration food is massively overpowered, no doubt. But otherwise I think Food increases the build diversity and is something that sets WvW apart from sPvP.

I know its a sensitive topic but I don’t see how it is overpowered. We have the ability to remove conditions, do we not? Cond. duration buffs seem balanced if you remember that you, or your allies, can remove them.
Am I wrong?

I don’t really use consumables, except for the piles of food I made while working up Cooking. (Lil asura Master Chef, and no Gordon Ramsay in sight.) I find it moderately useful with a few items being an exception but I also fall victim to “too awesome to use”.

(Which is why I always had 50+ Megalixirs on Final Fantasy games and never used any . . . )

I’ve used trays/feasts if they get dropped in WvW by commanders or such, but really I don’t find them essential to the experience. I don’t think I’d reasonably miss them if they disappeared.

All that said . . . I’d rather not see them be completely be removed. Toned down? Perhaps, or at least made to fit a power curve where Level 80 food is the same relative to a Level 80 set of stats as lower levels.

At least it’s not as ubiquitous as consets were in GW1.

thaooo.5320:

aliksyian.7642:

They’re tedious to manage and give an advantage to people who are willing to put up with that. They should be removed, or be something you unlock and can access from your inventory freely once you’ve discovered it.

So because you’re to lazy to use them, everyone else should be punished.

’Gotcha.

Yes, because you shouldn’t reward tedium with power. Do you not agree? If you don’t, where do you draw the line? Like, would it be cool if waypointing to all the cities gave you +1000 power for the day?

You are so heavily exaggerating that it can’t even be used as a comparison. You could have done better.

As far as nourishment goes and the line where some people choose to use it and others don’t. It makes little difference. We could easily make the same argument about traits, could we not? That some choose to pick more down one line and not another. Hell, I even caught myself playing an alt for a month after the 4/15 patch without remembering to retrait her. And guess what? I didn’t notice that much of a difference.