Guild Wars 2

It is our fault for believing on support roles.

This game is just about zerg and dps.

No need for support on 99% of the game.

So go zerker or waste your time.

Edit. Editted to mention I had pve in mind, specially dungeons and zergs (World Bosses).

Edit 2. I have both specc and I’ve been and completed every single instance in this game, multiple times. And I know that I can support just fine as a zerker. Aside here and there, we barely needed support roles.

Or play what you want to have fun and don’t worry about efficiency. Join a casual guild. Prosper.

Or do high level fractals, while everyone is zerking (not zerging) and dpsing, the support is what holds the group alive.

Or do something other than PvE

@Vayne. Yes, I play like I want, but I dont want to feel gympsed. Right now we are forced into blindly dps. I have 2 sets and switch them back and forth. But sadly, I go far more zerker than I feel I should mostly because I know my support is useless.

@Esplen: High level fractals, Arah (to some extent at p4) and Aetherblade Retreat are the only places I can THINK of being support is important.

The problem is the rest of the game, and every single new event they add.
Champions? Zerk Zerg.
Dragons? Zerk Zerg
99% of the dungeons? Zerk Zerg.

@Klawlyt So you agree that there is a whole, huge part of the game, where zerk is the only way.

I don’t feel kitten if I’m enjoying what I’m doing. I obviously can’t tell you what to feel but if you’re having a good time…shouldn’t that really be the object of any game?

If you’re playing with a team of players who aren’t super-uber-leet, support can be very helpful.

Not everyone is good enough to play without vit/toughness, I like being able to stay alive.

I agree from a mostly hypothetical standpoint. I rarely poke my head out of WvW or PvP, but one need not poke his head out often to know that zerker isn’t just the meta, it’s the PvE game right now. I think it’s kind of funny how elitist the PvE side of GW2 is, while the PvPers of both stripes are a helpful, fun loving lot for the most part. It’s a huge part of what keeps me fighting other humans instead of bots.

In WoW I got mad other players were always 1-shotting me.
In GW2 I get mad mobs always 1-shot me.
In TOR I generally fell asleep before a fight ended, but that’s not really relevant.

It’s all who you run with, I have 2 friends, Guardian and Mesmer, wouldn’t leave home without them.

Reihert.1509:

@Klawlyt So you agree that there is a whole, huge part of the game, where zerk is the only way.

The game is pretty easy. There are 1-2 Dungeons that may be difficult but none of them require you to have a specific gear-setup.

Not quite… I’ve seen a lot of support thrown around in the pavilion on the harder fights. You can see the zerk builds because they’re usually lying there dead, but smart players are stacking on aoe heals and running helpful signets and things. I don’t know, maybe it’s just my perspective coming out of wvw.

Esplen.3940:

Or do high level fractals, while everyone is zerking (not zerging) and dpsing, the support is what holds the group alive.

This is the basic problem with the game. (It’s the same in WvW).

Trinity roles are only available the high-end endgame. This is Fractals and the 20+ organized guild groups in WvW. It is only at that level in WvW that healing (water fields + blast) and tanking (Hammer chain melee) become really possible of the critical mass of players.

It really does leave the “average” player out in the cold. (Super casual players will do just fine).

Sitkaz.5463:

Not quite… I’ve seen a lot of support thrown around in the pavilion on the harder fights. You can see the zerk builds because they’re usually lying there dead, but smart players are stacking on aoe heals and running helpful signets and things. I don’t know, maybe it’s just my perspective coming out of wvw.

^ This.

Reihert.1509:

It is our fault for believing on support roles.

This game is just about zerg and dps.

No need for support on 99% of the game.

So go zerker or waste your time.

Remember that video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWQ-39_C8LI

Estimated team composition :
1 support Mesmer. Portal, Blink, Signet of Inspiration, Feedback, Timewarp
1 support Ranger. Spirit of Frost, Spotter, Call of the Wild
1 support Warrior. Banners, Empower Allies, FGJ, Long duration Fire combo field with longbow
2 DPS thieves, kinda. Blast finishers in fire fields as support.

Support roles exist, it’s just that they are expected to deal some DPS themselves too so they gear in zerk stuff.

You can use support skills and still use berserker gear.

kokiman.2364:

Reihert.1509:

@Klawlyt So you agree that there is a whole, huge part of the game, where zerk is the only way.

The game is pretty easy. There are 1-2 Dungeons that may be difficult but none of them require you to have a specific gear-setup.

I didn’t say dungeons aren’t easy. Finding a group who will take a dude who admits to not knowing the dungeon and runs “sub-optimal” gear is the hard part. At least on JQ. It’s no big though, my interest in dungeons isn’t very great anyway. It would be nice to get the top of my screen to stop with the Victory or Death! thing though.

Blix.8021:

You can use support skills and still use berserker gear.

Yeah, I was about to say this. I run full zerk, yet I’m still reflecting Pyroxis attacks at him.

Actually, that’s a lie. When I fight in the Pavilion, I’m running full MF gear.

Pyroxis reflect hits himself for 15k a pop, about 6 times, even while wearing MF gear. Just sayin’.

Klawlyt.6507:

kokiman.2364:

Reihert.1509:

@Klawlyt So you agree that there is a whole, huge part of the game, where zerk is the only way.

The game is pretty easy. There are 1-2 Dungeons that may be difficult but none of them require you to have a specific gear-setup.

I didn’t say dungeons aren’t easy. Finding a group who will take a dude who admits to not knowing the dungeon and runs “sub-optimal” gear is the hard part. At least on JQ. It’s no big though, my interest in dungeons isn’t very great anyway. It would be nice to get the top of my screen to stop with the Victory or Death! thing though.

I have yet to find a group that asks me to ping the gear for a dungeon on my server.

Man, on JQ the day after the sky pirate dungeon went live, LA was full of LFGs with “please be experienced” or some variant. Again, no big. I’m quite happy with the WvW community.

I have 3 guardians with different builds and gears. My zerker guardian with a more dps oriented build does well in pve, while she is still quite supportive. But for the zerg in the Queen’s Pavilion my trusty pvt guardian with supersupportive build is best. Damage does not matter there, there are enough people dishing it out. But healing, buffing, condition removing and especially never dying – very useful.

Claudius.5381:

I have 3 guardians with different builds and gears. My zerker guardian with a more dps oriented build does well in pve, while she is still quite supportive. But for the zerg in the Queen’s Pavilion my trusty pvt guardian with supersupportive build is best. Damage does not matter there, there are enough people dishing it out. But healing, buffing, condition removing and especially never dying – very useful.

Damage doesn’t matter, except that the bosses HP scales up with the number of player. I suppose you should be happy there’s enough zerk players hitting the champions so that they don’t take ages to kill :p

Healing doesn’t benefit enough from healing power to justify the trade
Buffing doesn’t depend on gear stats, only on runes
Condition removing doesn’t depend on gear at all

Claudius.5381:

I have 3 guardians with different builds and gears. My zerker guardian with a more dps oriented build does well in pve, while she is still quite supportive. But for the zerg in the Queen’s Pavilion my trusty pvt guardian with supersupportive build is best. Damage does not matter there, there are enough people dishing it out. But healing, buffing, condition removing and especially never dying – very useful.

uh, i’ve been running around in the zerg on my guard in full mf gear, and on my war in full zerk, you don’t need ptv gear, just need vigor to dodge around

Sitkaz.5463:

Not quite… I’ve seen a lot of support thrown around in the pavilion on the harder fights. You can see the zerk builds because they’re usually lying there dead, but smart players are stacking on aoe heals and running helpful signets and things. I don’t know, maybe it’s just my perspective coming out of wvw.

Yeah, the Pavilion fights aren’t perfect, but it’s easy to tell the difference between a group that has a few people running support utility skills and builds, and one that doesn’t. It kind of reminds me of WvW a little; if you bring healing/CC/defensive skills to the Pavilion, you’re definitely helping by maintaining some situational awareness and laying them down.

If out and out dps is the only way…

Why doing the pavilion events as my mage do, I after spend loads of time in water attunement to keep the zerg alive? As soon as I stop being in water attunement, I end up surrounded by 20-30, no doubt zerkers crying to be rezzed…

They have annoyed me so much that I have started, when the boss is on 10% health, letting them all die and not rezzing one of them, I am hoping they get the message…

Also, in sPvP, why does my non-zerker Guardian hardly ever die and can still take out 2-3 (probably zerkers) with ease…indeed in sPvP ‘tanky’ bunkers = RULEZ…

Blix.8021:

Claudius.5381:

I have 3 guardians with different builds and gears. My zerker guardian with a more dps oriented build does well in pve, while she is still quite supportive. But for the zerg in the Queen’s Pavilion my trusty pvt guardian with supersupportive build is best. Damage does not matter there, there are enough people dishing it out. But healing, buffing, condition removing and especially never dying – very useful.

uh, i’ve been running around in the zerg on my guard in full mf gear, and on my war in full zerk, you don’t need ptv gear, just need vigor to dodge around

Indeed. I have a couple of guards and I have been running it with the one with full on zerk gear/ruby orbs and it has posed zero problems.

For the vast majority of pve content (Queens Pavilion zerg included), zerk seems the most optimal approach. For w3 and spvp though it is a different story.

What’s up with all the crying on the forums lately that zerker gear is practically required now? I’ve never used it and I’ve quite successful at every aspect of the game I play.

What am I missing here? Are these all people trying to farm CoF and being rejected? I can’t imagine anywhere else in the game, PvE, where anyone would really care all that much what your character build is like. I guess some people might not want failed dungeon parties, but there are plenty of viable builds for dungeons so unless people were farming they shouldn’t care.

Is this whole crying about zerker thing on the forums lately really about farming CoF 1?

No. I called non-Zerker builds selfish and literally ever since then people have been complaining.

Esplen.3940:

Or do high level fractals, while everyone is zerking (not zerging) and dpsing, the support is what holds the group alive.

Thank god there is at least one place in this entire game where it matters what you play….seriously, couldn’t they’ve made it matter in most of this game instead of just one place?

no matter what, i still think that there are classes more suitable for berserker gear than other, and classes that would benefit more from some other stat combination.
according to me it’s not only a matter of damage or survivability…

Blix.8021:

You can use support skills and still use berserker gear.

/thread

Stone.6751:

What’s up with all the crying on the forums lately that zerker gear is practically required now? I’ve never used it and I’ve quite successful at every aspect of the game I play.

What am I missing here? Are these all people trying to farm CoF and being rejected? I can’t imagine anywhere else in the game, PvE, where anyone would really care all that much what your character build is like. I guess some people might not want failed dungeon parties, but there are plenty of viable builds for dungeons so unless people were farming they shouldn’t care.

Is this whole crying about zerker thing on the forums lately really about farming CoF 1?

It’s harder to build zerker and then play with a non zerker group. The faster your group is dropping bosses, the less likely you are to miss one of your dodges. The longer the boss fights are, the more you have to dodge, and the probability that you will miss a dodge increases over time.

At the same time, you have people that are just cool with clearing content, and other people that strive to optimize and progress their play. As you get better and more comfortable with content, the less you need to rely on stats like vita/toughness because most damage can be mitigated before stats even come into play (dodge, block, reflect, etc).

So, the less you need to rely on defensive stats, the more you can invest in damage. But then you get back to the issue in my first paragraph, where difficulty is effected by group make-up, aka zerker group vs non-zerker group.

A zerker in a non zerker group gets dropped frequently because after spending X amount of time on a boss fight you finally miss a dodge. And a non-zerker in a zerker group is essentially carried because his damage doesn’t compare to his teammates, who depend on dropping their boss asap.

Alright OP

How about you make some suggestions rather than just complain on the current system?

Reihert.1509:

@Vayne. Yes, I play like I want, but I dont want to feel gympsed. Right now we are forced into blindly dps. I have 2 sets and switch them back and forth. But sadly, I go far more zerker than I feel I should mostly because I know my support is useless.

@Esplen: High level fractals, Arah (to some extent at p4) and Aetherblade Retreat are the only places I can THINK of being support is important.

The problem is the rest of the game, and every single new event they add.
Champions? Zerk Zerg.
Dragons? Zerk Zerg
99% of the dungeons? Zerk Zerg.

@Klawlyt So you agree that there is a whole, huge part of the game, where zerk is the only way.

Nobody forces me to play anyway they want. I play my way, and contribute that way way more than zerk-way. So the problem is you are letting others and metas rule over your strictly free-choice. Either that or you wanted to troll. :P

(To be fair, “support”/control/condition should probably be more attractive options than what they currently are-if this is what you wanted to convey, the tone is probably not the best, though.)

The GW2 PvE is supposed to be played with “zerk” only argument is hardly one, as it’s totally and irrefutably illogical, failing to see the whole picture other than a few niche goals that don’t apply to every player.

The game has zero team work… every patch is getting more and more like a single player arcade… gear doesn’t matter anymore since anything is designed in a way that full berzeker character with zero survivality can do it… so basically yes, support roles are indeed a huge lie as control roles are. Huge fail on Anet side.

Scrambles.2604:

A zerker in a non zerker group gets dropped frequently because after spending X amount of time on a boss fight you finally miss a dodge. And a non-zerker in a zerker group is essentially carried because his damage doesn’t compare to his teammates, who depend on dropping their boss asap.

This kind of thinking is flawed, because it always blames others for their choices. You chose to use Berserker’s on a non-speedrun. It is NOT their fault that you missed a dodge, because if you were better equipped for taking hits, it might have not happened. Also, claiming that others are “being carried” by “zerker’s” is absolutely wrong-he/she’s also carrying you by the fact of being there contributing in his/her own way.

I agree that Berserker’s work better together (extremely organized, just play for full DPS way.) I disagree other people “harm” the Berserker, or are “being carried” beause it’s the Berserker’s free choice to prefer high risk/high reward playstyle, and it’s a choice he/she has to live with without blaming others for their equally free choices.

Blix.8021:

You can use support skills and still use berserker gear.

And that’s exactly my point.
You can use support skills as a zerker.
All the other gear sets are just a waste outside some expcetional, yet lovely, content.

I agree that some entrance level instances could be just zerker run.
But if the vast majority of dungeon/pve content is done in zerker gear, maybe it is time to revaluate the need of other combinations.

Make healing scale to a relevant standard? (you wont dmg, but hell, you gonna heal).
Make toughness, outside it’s aggro drawing capacity, be able to actually soak up dmg.

Sadly, go zerker or hold back your team.

As for getting friends to run with you, I have an active guild and good friends that ALWAYS run with me. They don’t mind if I run naked or just wearing a small leather Thong (I’m a charr, so you can get the image for your whole life now).

But I do mind knowing I’m holding them back. That’s why I have a support gear in my bags for those excepctional moments (Aetherblade retreat, FotM 30+) but mostly, I see myself running zerker (either because mobs 2 shots you anyways, where they otherwise would 3 shot you or because of dmg being irrelevant).

Vol.5241:

Alright OP

How about you make some suggestions rather than just complain on the current system?

Do you want suggestions? ok, here are a few:

Make bosses hit faster but weaker. You cant dodge forever, so having someone being able to soak up dmg can do wonder. In a plus note, that player, for not having a dedicated healer, he will have to survive with party buffs, combo fields (blast on water, for example) that a dps can make.
Dont have a tanky character? That’s fine. We have a support build with healing on hand, whose healing would suffice to make the gap so a zerker can survive during that fight.
Dont have that? Chain CC, coordinate CC, coordinate line of warding, kites. Zerker could still do it, but they wouldnt dare to just sit there and dps with an ocasional dodging.

How about instead of GIANT freaking mutant bosses with ridiculous damage and hitpoints (which means zerk gear is automatically best gear), we make encounters more about

-Fighting zergs of enemies, which contain varying types of enemies

-Making control effects important, for instance certain mobs cant take damage, they can only be controlled, and take dmg while controlled, or whatever interesting mechanic you want to put on it

-Making control important by creating a area that you have to keep mobs out of, or you die

-Make WvW-like pve encounters, where you must defend a tower or keep or take a tower or keep against a massive amount of enemies

My point is with no traditional trinity of tank heals dps, having traditional bossfights with just one enemy means you can only scale him one way.. health and dmg. If you want to have a trinity that is more like control,support,dps, then you need to change the end fights to cater to that, scale the enemies down to be just as strong as the players, and adjust the number of enemies and add neat mechanics to the fights, like siege weapons, or wahtever

Here is an example of what I mean

Make a capture the flag type dungeon, i dont care much for the lore, write it how you want, when you get to the end fight, there are say a number of magic relics, say 3 that have to be placed on altars, your side has 3 altars and the enemy has 3, the relics spawn in 1 minute intervals in the middle, and the enemy can both pick them up out of the middle, and steal them from your base and vice versa

You can do all sorts of things with that, change the number and type of enemy that keep bumrushing either the center or your altars, anything you can do to make life easy like portals or whatever the enemy can do too.

Just please, do SOMETHING that isnt a giant mutant that one hits anything and has 1million life points

I always play support and survival, and I kick zerkers kitten. I can kill them faster than they can kill me.
Also, ever had a good guardian in wvw? What about wall of reflection+shield of avenger? That’s a lot of safe zones from projectiles. Basically, and I’m sorry to say this, if you think damage numbers are the only factor then you’re just not skilled.

Meglobob.8620:

Why doing the pavilion events as my mage do, I after spend loads of time in water attunement to keep the zerg alive? As soon as I stop being in water attunement, I end up surrounded by 20-30, no doubt zerkers crying to be rezzed…

They have annoyed me so much that I have started, when the boss is on 10% health, letting them all die and not rezzing one of them, I am hoping they get the message…

They’re probably wearing MF gear. It is the Pavilion, after all…

Taerik.3405:

-Fighting zergs of enemies, which contain varying types of enemies

CoF 2 defending mag, still zerked down

-Making control effects important, for instance certain mobs cant take damage, they can only be controlled, and take dmg while controlled, or whatever interesting mechanic you want to put on it

The more a mob is unable to attack the better zerking is

-Making control important by creating a area that you have to keep mobs out of, or you die

My Guardian can still zerk while using staff/hammer and sanctuary

-Make WvW-like pve encounters, where you must defend a tower or keep or take a tower or keep against a massive amount of enemies

See above

so as a matter of fact what we are seeing here is that when magic find will be removed players will ask to remove every other stat combination in the game that will not be power/precision/critical damage?

because at least their rage once was for magic find users… now they will rage at everything else?
i’m lucky i never met such players, but if this will be the result better get ready for no stat armor (which would be great for me)

Blix.8021:

Taerik.3405:

-Fighting zergs of enemies, which contain varying types of enemies

CoF 2 defending mag, still zerked down

-Making control effects important, for instance certain mobs cant take damage, they can only be controlled, and take dmg while controlled, or whatever interesting mechanic you want to put on it

The more a mob is unable to attack the better zerking is

-Making control important by creating a area that you have to keep mobs out of, or you die

My Guardian can still zerk while using staff/hammer and sanctuary

-Make WvW-like pve encounters, where you must defend a tower or keep or take a tower or keep against a massive amount of enemies

See above

Im not asking for removing the ability to zerk through things, I am asking for PvE to make it more beneficial to bring a balanced group, and you even just pointed it out, and made my point for me

the more a mob is unable to attack the better zerking is, control effects are there to support the damage effects

I dunno, I kinda use my warrior as a support role during events. I switch almost all my slots to banners and throw down:)

Taerik.3405:

Blix.8021:

Taerik.3405:

-Fighting zergs of enemies, which contain varying types of enemies

CoF 2 defending mag, still zerked down

-Making control effects important, for instance certain mobs cant take damage, they can only be controlled, and take dmg while controlled, or whatever interesting mechanic you want to put on it

The more a mob is unable to attack the better zerking is

-Making control important by creating a area that you have to keep mobs out of, or you die

My Guardian can still zerk while using staff/hammer and sanctuary

-Make WvW-like pve encounters, where you must defend a tower or keep or take a tower or keep against a massive amount of enemies

See above

Im not asking for removing the ability to zerk through things, I am asking for PvE to make it more beneficial to bring a balanced group, and you even just pointed it out, and made my point for me

the more a mob is unable to attack the better zerking is, control effects are there to support the damage effects

A balanced group is just a bunch of different classes all running zerker, though. Even if we had a dungeon where we had to heal, you could just bring a zerk ranger and a bunch of zerk wars and guards to blast his water field.

Reihert.1509:

It is our fault for believing on support roles.

This game is just about zerg and dps.

No need for support on 99% of the game.

So go zerker or waste your time.

do something more difficult than CoF1 and you may miss some survivavility/toughness/healing.

if you think 99% doesn’t need support then you don’t know what you are talking about. I guess you did not include WvW or sPvP.

Admittedly, most boss encounters TILL recently can just be dps if you are a competent zerker but the game is far from support free.

do something more difficult than CoF1 and you may miss some survivavility/toughness/healing.

You do realise people run fractal 48 and arah with zerkers, right?

if you think 99% doesn’t need support then you don’t know what you are talking about. I guess you did not include WvW or sPvP.
Admittedly, most boss encounters TILL recently can just be dps if you are a competent zerker but the game is far from support free.

The encounters do need support, just not the “afk then burst heal every now and then” support that people here want. You have players fury and might stacking for more damage, protection, aegis and regeneration for damage mitigation, reflecting projectiles for both, pulling mobs so the team can burst them down, etc.

Support in gw2 is proactive, not reactive.

I don’t know, I don’t really see it. Maybe because my ele is far too low level still.

My necro is max out exotics and ascended. I have little over 3k AttPwr, 50% crit chance, little over 3k armor.

I go to the the island in the middle of the lake (WvW BL), aggro the whole group of krait and AoE bomb them dead in relative ease. My Ele would be lucky to kill one before the whole zerg dropped him. Again, maybe it’s because my Ele is low level.

I do agree that the healing stat needs to have a greater impact. There needs to be some trade off between stats and some stats need to be kept seperate.

Power
Precision
Toughness
Condition
Healing
Vitality
(Won’t include Crit dmg yet)

These are the main ones. You have three offensive and three defensive.

They need to be paired off and they need to trade off with each other…

Power – Toughness
Precision – Vitality
Condition – Healing

If you want to do damage, it should cost you survivability and vice versa.

The game is already like this to a degree. As stated in a post above, healing should contribute more. Although I would say toughness is fine. A guardian that stacks toughness and healing can already withstand too much dps from a 10+ man zerg as it is. I can’t imagine if both toughness and healing were more effective.

I did notice that there isn’t toughness/vitality/healing combination. Yet I think there is a Power/Precision/Condition setup. There is also a Power/Precision/Crit Dmg.

The Crit Dmg stat on gear should be removed and if there isn’t a toughness/vitality/healing combination then there shouldn’t be a Power/Precision/Condition combination.

The removal of the stat and removal of the combination (effectively removing two stat combinations from the offensive side) would certainly open up all the other combinations as viable (equally optimal to each other). It would also balance the system. Right now because of the Crit Dmg stat and the fact you can combine Power, Precision and Condition but not Tougness, Vitality and healing has the system out of balance and tipped infavor for the offensive side.

I say, if you like a support/defensive playstyle, you should try Mesmer, Guardian or Ranger. They seem to do it best when built right.