Guild Wars 2

And, I’m sorry, for your loss, and I apologise if I misinterpreted what you said.

dom.2748:

Because if you want us to think “Oh, its just another person” Then there shouldn’t have been a point to point at that shes transgender to begin with.

But that would only happen if binary genderedness wasn’t assumed in advanced, which it is. Society isn’t at that enlightened point where people are just people yet.

Sarevok.2638:

They have that choice about their lives, let them get on with it, don’t hoist them up for everyone to judge. The only thing about this topic i can say is “The Road to hell is paved with good intentions” while people want to celebrate this NPC, it is only having the knock on effect of bringing these differences up and making them more visible when in reality, it shouldn’t be! It’s the opposite effect of what the end desire is!

Saying “well if they’re just people why even mention it!” is sort of missing the point. It would be like saying, well black homosexual women are equal to white heterosexual men so if we only show white heterosexual men on TV what does it matter!

It’s about people being people, unique but facing the same struggles and challenges as other people by virtue of being fellow human beings, not about everyone being the same.

And besides, it’s not as if this NPC is going “HEY LISTEN! IM TRANS!”, they simply mention they used to be called symon after your character asks “Have we met before?”. But I dunno, maybe what I consider a simple conversational exchange is a celebratory pedestal to you.

anx.7549:

I’m not angry far from it, but before you go instructing members of the LGBT community to leave the thread because you don’t like what they are saying, maybe you need anger management classes.

Unfortunately you just weren’t able to comprehend the point that was being made.. that poster who was so say from the LGBT community was in fact the one trying to ignite the flame war by falsely accusing others who post here .. that is why I suggested leaving the thread because what Jester was saying is exactly the kind of rubbish that creates the animosity in the first place and the thread is not deserving of having that kind of treatment..
I actually find the thread a very interesting debate but even I can see if this is what can immediately happen in one small thread on a forum frequented by a mere drop of the actual playerbase, then in game it will turn much worse very fast … especially when players like Jester start harping in to ignite it… both sides of the issue have their points and both sides have as much right to speak openly , but both sides can also push the issue beyond debate in a blink of an eye… is that what you prefer?

Khristophoros.7194:

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Khristophoros.7194:

My opinion is not from bigotry. I have a close family member who has been in transition for a few years and I don’t accept it. That is a much more real experience on the issue than most people have.

On the contrary, that means your bigotry is more deeply rooted and prejudicial than average. Most bigots are simply against a faceless hypothetical image, not a real person. But you’ve made the decision to turn against a real person who is part of your life, denying them the love and support they no doubt were hoping for and may desperately need. Your bigotry is on a whole other level than that of a mere idealogue.

This is an extremely disrespectful thing for you to say. You have no idea what my experience is like.

I was actually very accepting of transgendered people until this happened. I’d like to see you just accept it if it happened to you.

I would have absolutly no problem with it. ask them, their preferd pronoun and try my best to use it.
Sure i’d slip up ocasionally, but would correct my self right after.
Depending on if it was FTM ot MTF, i’d offer any help and support they would need.

I Don’t know why you have an issue with it. Perhaps learning of it was traumatic for you? People are all different after all. Perhaps you could go find somebody to talk to about your issue with it? Then you can overcome whatever made you so upset. And in the end be supportive for your family.

Kury.8210:

I know a big debate is over whether it’s a choice or not, and maybe for some there isn’t a choice. But for some it is and opinions can be swayed.

No. Just, absolutely, no. I am sincerely sorry for what you went through, but sexual orientation is not a choice.

In a better world, your girlfriend would never have felt pressured to “fit in” by getting involved with someone of a gender she was not oriented to be with. And you would have been spared that pain. But spreading the misconception that one’s orientation is a choice implies that anyone who is heterosexual can simply choose to be attracted to someone of the same gender.

Can you do that? Can you simply flip a mental switch, look at a picture of another guy, and find him attractive? If you can’t (and believe me, you can’t), then surely you can realize that no one else can do it, either.

I’m not picking on you. I think it’s a real shame what you went through. Anyone would have been hurt by that.

Swizzle.7982:

dom.2748:

Because if you want us to think “Oh, its just another person” Then there shouldn’t have been a point to point at that shes transgender to begin with.

But that would only happen if binary genderedness wasn’t assumed in advanced, which it is. Society isn’t at that enlightened point where people are just people yet.

Sarevok.2638:

They have that choice about their lives, let them get on with it, don’t hoist them up for everyone to judge. The only thing about this topic i can say is “The Road to hell is paved with good intentions” while people want to celebrate this NPC, it is only having the knock on effect of bringing these differences up and making them more visible when in reality, it shouldn’t be! It’s the opposite effect of what the end desire is!

Saying “well if they’re just people why even mention it!” is sort of missing the point. It would be like saying, well black homosexual women are equal to white heterosexual men so if we only show white heterosexual men on TV what does it matter!

It’s about people being people, unique but facing the same struggles and challenges as other people by virtue of being fellow human beings, not about everyone being the same.

And besides, it’s not as if this NPC is going “HEY LISTEN! IM TRANS!”, they simply mention they used to be called symon after your character asks “Have we met before?”. But I dunno, maybe what I consider a simple conversational exchange is a celebratory pedestal to you.

I’m saying that people can be different, not be judged on whatever differences and just let the day flow on, I certainly don’t think about these differences!

It’s not the NPC that is going HEY LISTEN about it indeed…

Sarevok.2638:

They have that choice about their lives, let them get on with it, don’t hoist them up for everyone to judge. The only thing about this topic i can say is “The Road to hell is paved with good intentions” while people want to celebrate this NPC, it is only having the knock on effect of bringing these differences up and making them more visible when in reality, it shouldn’t be! It’s the opposite effect of what the end desire is!

But, actually in reality, being LGBT does make you “visible” and a lot of the attention you attract — especially as a trans man or woman — is negative. Even if strangers on the street don’t know your orientation or past history, lots and lots of people involved in your life do, and trans folks routinely encounter discrimination, abuse, and violence as a result.

A bit of positive visibility, even if it’s rather tokenistic, can be a nice little balm. There’s literally no downside.

Besides, total invisibility is just erasure.

anx.7549:

And, I’m sorry, for your loss, and I apologise if I misinterpreted what you said.

No apology required.. its a debate.. one full of opinion and conjecture.. and sadly much of that stems from real life emotions and experiences…. we’re all different in our own ways.. I just prefer to not see this kind of thing go beyond the realm of debate within a game environment.

Unfortunately though this is the interweebs, its faceless and easy to say anything and everything and some will take that and abuse it.. from both sides of this issue.. I am not blameless for sure, but neither am I someone trying to point fingers or hurling homophobic comments.

Hopefully this thread can keep a steady course now moderators/ Gaile have joined in.

ASP.8093:

Sarevok.2638:

They have that choice about their lives, let them get on with it, don’t hoist them up for everyone to judge. The only thing about this topic i can say is “The Road to hell is paved with good intentions” while people want to celebrate this NPC, it is only having the knock on effect of bringing these differences up and making them more visible when in reality, it shouldn’t be! It’s the opposite effect of what the end desire is!

But, actually in reality, being LGBT does make you “visible” and a lot of the attention you attract — especially as a trans man or woman — is negative. Even if strangers on the street don’t know your orientation or past history, lots and lots of people involved in your life do, and trans folks routinely encounter discrimination, abuse, and violence as a result.

A bit of positive visibility, even if it’s rather tokenistic, can be a nice little balm. There’s literally no downside.

Besides, total invisibility is just erasure.

Agreed. Even walking down the street with your partner can be enough to get looks and comments, and I’m not even talking about walking hand in hand (something I don’t do) Sure it depends where you live. I’ve lived in big cities around the world and never had an issue. Now I find myself in a very small rural town. I’ve never been ashamed of who I am or who I love, but it certainly gives you cause for concern just going out and doing everyday normal things wondering if you are going to be verbally abused or worse.

ASP.8093:

But, actually in reality, being LGBT does make you “visible” and a lot of the attention you attract — especially as a trans man or woman — is negative. Even if strangers on the street don’t know your orientation or past history, lots and lots of people involved in your life do, and trans folks routinely encounter discrimination, abuse, and violence as a result.

A bit of positive visibility, even if it’s rather tokenistic, can be a nice little balm. There’s literally no downside.

Besides, total invisibility is just erasure.

(deep breaths, this might prove a bit unpopular…)

This…ISN’T…reality. This is a game, where those kinds of choices shouldn’t and DON’T affect your ability to play.

There is a little bit of visibility in the game, I have no issue with that, the NPC has identified themselves as such, fine, all good, now where is the next fractal run at? Tyria has races, there is plenty of acceptance and, look at Lion’s Arch. There are conflicts with these races, look at seperatists in Ascalon. It’s hardly being invisible about it, it just filters them into a gameplay context and with HoT coming out the Sylvari are going to get it in SPADES.

The reason we have people coming into the threads with these concerns about “agendas” is because they have a fear that this kind of thing could start to have too BIG a focus on the game because it shouldn’t affect play.and we have the “You Know what” fisaco to thank for that, people with agendas getting into other gaming situations. I AM NOT SAYING THIS THE CASE HERE, it is merely to help clarify why we have some rather stark attitudes in the thread and believe me, I find it terrible that such concerns should exist in the first place.

It’s getting a bit late and hard to express ones self appropriately, think I’ll end it there for now.

PeterFries.1057:

Iason Evan.3806:

This is great and all but can we finally get that Quaggan genocide we’ve all wanted since launch, please? Where’s Peter Fries when you need him? Take action friend!

On it.

Nooooo!

FooOoo!

Quaggans are people too! Not food!

anx.7549:

ASP.8093:

Sarevok.2638:

They have that choice about their lives, let them get on with it, don’t hoist them up for everyone to judge. The only thing about this topic i can say is “The Road to hell is paved with good intentions” while people want to celebrate this NPC, it is only having the knock on effect of bringing these differences up and making them more visible when in reality, it shouldn’t be! It’s the opposite effect of what the end desire is!

But, actually in reality, being LGBT does make you “visible” and a lot of the attention you attract — especially as a trans man or woman — is negative. Even if strangers on the street don’t know your orientation or past history, lots and lots of people involved in your life do, and trans folks routinely encounter discrimination, abuse, and violence as a result.

A bit of positive visibility, even if it’s rather tokenistic, can be a nice little balm. There’s literally no downside.

Besides, total invisibility is just erasure.

Agreed. Even walking down the street with your partner can be enough to get looks and comments, and I’m not even talking about walking hand in hand (something I don’t do) Sure it depends where you live. I’ve lived in big cities around the world and never had an issue. Now I find myself in a very small rural town. I’ve never been ashamed of who I am or who I love, but it certainly gives you cause for concern just going out and doing everyday normal things wondering if you are going to be verbally abused or worse.

That’s pretty awful I totally hear that… I guess the question that comes to mind for me is.. if that can and does happen in RL why then would we all want that to creep into something we’re likely sitting at home playing away from reality as well, I don’t think I would look forward to logging in so much for sure.

Peakitten.6412:

PeterFries.1057:

Iason Evan.3806:

This is great and all but can we finally get that Quaggan genocide we’ve all wanted since launch, please? Where’s Peter Fries when you need him? Take action friend!

On it.

Nooooo!

FooOoo!

Quaggans are people too! Not food!

You say that now until 500 cooking comes out, and we’re eating fried quaggans skin stew

Bloodstealer.5978:

That’s pretty awful I totally hear that… I guess the question that comes to mind for me is.. if that can and does happen in RL why then would we all want that to creep into something we’re likely sitting at home playing away from reality as well, I don’t think I would look forward to logging in so much for sure.

Think you put it into plain english better than I can right now, hah, the joys of staying up.

minbariguy.7504:

Kury.8210:

I know a big debate is over whether it’s a choice or not, and maybe for some there isn’t a choice. But for some it is and opinions can be swayed.

No. Just, absolutely, no. I am sincerely sorry for what you went through, but sexual orientation is not a choice.

In a better world, your girlfriend would never have felt pressured to “fit in” by getting involved with someone of a gender she was not oriented to be with. And you would have been spared that pain. But spreading the misconception that one’s orientation is a choice implies that anyone who is heterosexual can simply choose to be attracted to someone of the same gender.

Can you do that? Can you simply flip a mental switch, look at a picture of another guy, and find him attractive? If you can’t (and believe me, you can’t), then surely you can realize that no one else can do it, either.

I’m not picking on you. I think it’s a real shame what you went through. Anyone would have been hurt by that.

I appreciate the sympathy, but I have to differ with your opinion. From what I can tell it’s a lot like food. Sometimes you really enjoy something. There’s no question. You like it. Sometimes it’s more in the middle. With this type the food might grow on you if you keep eating it and aren’t determined to hate it. I even have some personal experience on the matter. Heck, in this strange place called the internet where the stereotype still somewhat exists that only guys game, I’ve had a number of people confess to thinking I was a girl at first. If I had grown up in a different environment or simply made different choices I could actually see myself having quite a different view. But, as is I’m pretty confident I’m just another straight white guy (sounds so boring and unflattering).

I understand why people say it’s not a choice. Not only is it certainly true in some cases, but it helps out in a few arguments as well. Unfortunately, on the off chance it really is a choice, saying it isn’t can go a long way for swaying someone’s opinion on the matter.

I guess the real reason I felt I had to type up this response is due to two factors in my own relationship. First, it feels like it implies what we had shared for over a year was never real. Second, I very much valued the experiences I had. I had reached the conclusion that despite how it ended, I would not have done it differently. I understand this is partially what I want to believe, thus is not evidence for or against, but if the relationship was simply a result of pressure from society and not a choice… That’s harsh. That’s really harsh.

BobbyT.7192:

Peakitten.6412:

PeterFries.1057:

Iason Evan.3806:

This is great and all but can we finally get that Quaggan genocide we’ve all wanted since launch, please? Where’s Peter Fries when you need him? Take action friend!

On it.

Nooooo!

FooOoo!

Quaggans are people too! Not food!

You say that now until 500 cooking comes out, and we’re eating fried quaggans skin stew

I know in the circumstances I shouldn’t say this but.. well I just gotta let it be known.
I dislike the blue Quaggans, I much prefer the pink ones… but I can’t manage to eat more than one in a serving!

To be honest I’ve never had an issue with the content in GW /GW2 or people in game. I and probably many others wouldn’t even have been aware of this NPC if not for this thread. And while I detested the bad writing / gushing love story in LS I think it is great to see ‘positive’ representations of gay/lesbian/ trans people in game.

Bloodstealer.5978:

… I guess the question that comes to mind for me is.. if that can and does happen in RL why then would we all want that to creep into something we’re likely sitting at home playing away from reality as well, I don’t think I would look forward to logging in so much for sure.

I’m not sure I understand this comment. What exactly are you referring to when you ask whether we want “that” to creep into our game? It’s not like the NPC’s of Lion’s Arch are going to come running up to you shouting racist or homophobic expletives.

If you’re talking about other players in map chat, well, people say offensive things all the time. You block, report, and move on.

Bloodstealer.5978:

BobbyT.7192:

Peakitten.6412:

PeterFries.1057:

Iason Evan.3806:

This is great and all but can we finally get that Quaggan genocide we’ve all wanted since launch, please? Where’s Peter Fries when you need him? Take action friend!

On it.

Nooooo!

FooOoo!

Quaggans are people too! Not food!

You say that now until 500 cooking comes out, and we’re eating fried quaggans skin stew

I know in the circumstances I shouldn’t say this but.. well I just gotta let it be known.
I dislike the blue Quaggans, I much prefer the pink ones… but I can’t manage to eat more than one in a serving!

LOL Are you being racist now??? Hehe I am joking! I actually like the black Quaggan backpack far better than the pink one.

Bloodstealer.5978:

BobbyT.7192:

Peakitten.6412:

PeterFries.1057:

Iason Evan.3806:

This is great and all but can we finally get that Quaggan genocide we’ve all wanted since launch, please? Where’s Peter Fries when you need him? Take action friend!

On it.

Nooooo!

FooOoo!

Quaggans are people too! Not food!

You say that now until 500 cooking comes out, and we’re eating fried quaggans skin stew

I know in the circumstances I shouldn’t say this but.. well I just gotta let it be known.
I dislike the blue Quaggans, I much prefer the pink ones… but I can’t manage to eat more than one in a serving!

Killer whale ones are really rare, but if you see one. Get your club out, because the meat is so juicy, the skin is worth as much as a precursor, and there’s buyer in the black market for the teeth because they think it can be used for come kind of herbal medicine.

I’ve read over some (not all) of the comments here and I see those who are happy to have a trans character and some not. Of the people who say they aren’t happy with this, I’ve seen quite a few people stating that they feel it’s being “pushed” on them or it’s “in your face” or they wish that the devs weren’t putting “real world issues” into GW2.

I’m thinking on this and I seriously wonder if what is bothering people isn’t that there’s a trans character but how this trans character is being included in the game. The citizen that Sya talks to treats her transformation casually, which is good. Not much fuss is made about it. Sya’s reasons for transforming are excellent and relatable. But there are two things about it that stick in my craw and leave a nasty taste in my mouth.

The first thing is the timing. And I believe when people complain about hot button issues and real world things coming to fantasy land, this is at the heart of it. Right now the western world is having a cultural moment concerning acceptance of different lifestyles and Caitlyn Jenner and her transformation is starting to feel rather overexposed in the press. It reminds me very much of the Simpsons episode where the pride parade goes by with the “we’re here, we’re queer, get used to it” chant and Lisa remarks “we’re already used to it”. Not everyone is going to like LGBT people but in terms of generally tolerating it, it seems, and I could be wrong, but a lot of main stream society has sort of just.. generally accepted it. We’re used to it. Some of us support, some of us dislike it and some ( a lot) are generally indifferent and couldn’t care less. Trans people are having their mid-90’s “Ellen moment” it seems, right now and I think a lot of people who are both generally accepting or indifferent and are already “used to it” are feeling a bit overwhelmed with trans-issues being everywhere in the media. This sense of growing tired of hearing about it may reflect more about western culture’s media saturation than it does about the amount of tolerance people have for trans people. They’re used to it, they’re tired of hearing about it and would like to extend their acceptance and move on to other topics.

The second reason, connected to the first is the comment made by the player character after conversing with Sya. The word “brave” being used directly connects this character with the events surrounding Caitlyn Jenner. While I won’t go into is this or is this not bravery, it’s certainly a buzz word that immediately brings up Jenner’s very public transformation and the media saturation around it. Personally, for me, this feels tacky and tokenish.

Had they introduced this trans character at a time when trans issues weren’t all over the media (mainstream and social) and the hype had calmed down a bit and had not included this line about her transformation being “brave” I probably wouldn’t have batted an eye. But that it happened when it did and with this buzzword… Now every time I see her when passing by in LA, I don’t think of Sya as Sya, as herself- I think of her as Caitlyn Jenner in GW2.

And that sucks.

Kury.8210:

I guess the real reason I felt I had to type up this response is due to two factors in my own relationship. First, it feels like it implies what we had shared for over a year was never real. Second, I very much valued the experiences I had. I had reached the conclusion that despite how it ended, I would not have done it differently. I understand this is partially what I want to believe, thus is not evidence for or against, but if the relationship was simply a result of pressure from society and not a choice… That’s harsh. That’s really harsh.

Sorry, I definitely did not mean to imply that your entire relationship was based on societal pressures. You’re right, that would be an incredibly harsh thing to say, and it’s not what I meant.

For various (unfortunate) reasons, sometimes lgbt people get into heterosexual relationships. The fact that they are lgbt doesn’t mean that they don’t love the person that they’re with, only that they are not physically attracted to them. Further complicating the matter is that there is an entire spectrum of attraction, the middle of which would be considered bisexual.

I think because bisexual people are capable of being attracted to either gender, many people confuse it with people they presumed were 100% heterosexual suddenly choosing to be gay.

In any case, for what it’s worth, although I disagree with you strongly about the “choice” aspect of this discussion, I totally respect the way you reacted to the situation you found yourself in. You handled it a lot better than most would have, in my opinion.

Edit to add:

I have muddled my own argument a bit by using the moniker “lgbt”, since the “b” specifically refers to bisexual people. This of course makes no sense when I go on to say that lgBt people are not physically attracted to their partners in a heterosexual relationship. Obviously I meant to refer to gay and lesbian people. Sorry!

I think of Sia the singer, purely because of the name. Just wish she had her hair!

owlslovetrees.4051:

I’ve read over some (not all) of the comments here and I see those who are happy to have a trans character and some not. Of the people who say they aren’t happy with this, I’ve seen quite a few people stating that they feel it’s being “pushed” on them or it’s “in your face” or they wish that the devs weren’t putting “real world issues” into GW2.

I’m thinking on this and I seriously wonder if what is bothering people isn’t that there’s a trans character but how this trans character is being included in the game. The citizen that Sya talks to treats her transformation casually, which is good. Not much fuss is made about it. Sya’s reasons for transforming are excellent and relatable. But there are two things about it that stick in my craw and leave a nasty taste in my mouth.

The first thing is the timing. And I believe when people complain about hot button issues and real world things coming to fantasy land, this is at the heart of it. Right now the western world is having a cultural moment concerning acceptance of different lifestyles and Caitlyn Jenner and her transformation is starting to feel rather overexposed in the press. It reminds me very much of the Simpsons episode where the pride parade goes by with the “we’re here, we’re queer, get used to it” chant and Lisa remarks “we’re already used to it”. Not everyone is going to like LGBT people but in terms of generally tolerating it, it seems, and I could be wrong, but a lot of main stream society has sort of just.. generally accepted it. We’re used to it. Some of us support, some of us dislike it and some ( a lot) are generally indifferent and couldn’t care less. Trans people are having their mid-90’s “Ellen moment” it seems, right now and I think a lot of people who are both generally accepting or indifferent and are already “used to it” are feeling a bit overwhelmed with trans-issues being everywhere in the media. This sense of growing tired of hearing about it may reflect more about western culture’s media saturation than it does about the amount of tolerance people have for trans people. They’re used to it, they’re tired of hearing about it and would like to extend their acceptance and move on to other topics.

The second reason, connected to the first is the comment made by the player character after conversing with Sya. The word “brave” being used directly connects this character with the events surrounding Caitlyn Jenner. While I won’t go into is this or is this not bravery, it’s certainly a buzz word that immediately brings up Jenner’s very public transformation and the media saturation around it. Personally, for me, this feels tacky and tokenish.

Had they introduced this trans character at a time when trans issues weren’t all over the media (mainstream and social) and the hype had calmed down a bit and had not included this line about her transformation being “brave” I probably wouldn’t have batted an eye. But that it happened when it did and with this buzzword… Now every time I see her when passing by in LA, I don’t think of Sya as Sya, as herself- I think of her as Caitlyn Jenner in GW2.

And that sucks.

You put all my thoughts surrounding this PERFECTLY.

Everything involving Sya, combined with how horribly they handled a queer couple (Marjoly/Kasmeer) made me feel like ANet’s writers have 0 real idea of how to write real people, only caricatures and facets mirroring real life events.

Which is to say, while the representation is nice, the characters should be written organically. You should write a LGBT character because you want to write a LGBT character, and not because real life suddenly has this big thing going on that you want to inject into a game everyone else is playing.

Bloodstealer.5978:

That’s pretty awful I totally hear that… I guess the question that comes to mind for me is.. if that can and does happen in RL why then would we all want that to creep into something we’re likely sitting at home playing away from reality as well, I don’t think I would look forward to logging in so much for sure.

Simple answer, without delving too deeply into how fiction can handle depictions of real-world harm: merely introducing an explicitly trans character doesn’t introduce anti-trans bigotry.

That’s part of the “escapist” appeal, in this case: the interaction with Sya is trying to signal “You can just be trans in Tyria and it’s not a thing people will flip out about.” Imagining and playing in a world like that makes a lot of people happy.

But you need to be able to actually meet someone like Sya because otherwise it’s indistinguishable from “Nobody is trans in Tyria.” And folks have been burned by media that avoids “LGBT issues” (or LGBT representation) only to eventually take some kind of awfully bigoted turn.

It’s the difference between “This world I made up has a place for you and it’s no big deal” and “This world I made up has no place for you whatsoever.”

DBZVelena.5186:

Khristophoros.7194:

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Khristophoros.7194:

My opinion is not from bigotry. I have a close family member who has been in transition for a few years and I don’t accept it. That is a much more real experience on the issue than most people have.

On the contrary, that means your bigotry is more deeply rooted and prejudicial than average. Most bigots are simply against a faceless hypothetical image, not a real person. But you’ve made the decision to turn against a real person who is part of your life, denying them the love and support they no doubt were hoping for and may desperately need. Your bigotry is on a whole other level than that of a mere idealogue.

This is an extremely disrespectful thing for you to say. You have no idea what my experience is like.

I was actually very accepting of transgendered people until this happened. I’d like to see you just accept it if it happened to you.

I would have absolutly no problem with it. ask them, their preferd pronoun and try my best to use it.
Sure i’d slip up ocasionally, but would correct my self right after.
Depending on if it was FTM ot MTF, i’d offer any help and support they would need.

I Don’t know why you have an issue with it. Perhaps learning of it was traumatic for you? People are all different after all. Perhaps you could go find somebody to talk to about your issue with it? Then you can overcome whatever made you so upset. And in the end be supportive for your family.

You can’t know that until you have the experience. It’s that simple.

I’m not going to go into all the reasons you’re probably not even considering, or which member of my family it is. It’s all too personal and I’m not comfortable with it. But I assure you that you simply can’t know what you’d do or think in my situation because you have no experience with it.

Khristophoros.7194:

DBZVelena.5186:

Khristophoros.7194:

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Khristophoros.7194:

My opinion is not from bigotry. I have a close family member who has been in transition for a few years and I don’t accept it. That is a much more real experience on the issue than most people have.

On the contrary, that means your bigotry is more deeply rooted and prejudicial than average. Most bigots are simply against a faceless hypothetical image, not a real person. But you’ve made the decision to turn against a real person who is part of your life, denying them the love and support they no doubt were hoping for and may desperately need. Your bigotry is on a whole other level than that of a mere idealogue.

This is an extremely disrespectful thing for you to say. You have no idea what my experience is like.

I was actually very accepting of transgendered people until this happened. I’d like to see you just accept it if it happened to you.

I would have absolutly no problem with it. ask them, their preferd pronoun and try my best to use it.
Sure i’d slip up ocasionally, but would correct my self right after.
Depending on if it was FTM ot MTF, i’d offer any help and support they would need.

I Don’t know why you have an issue with it. Perhaps learning of it was traumatic for you? People are all different after all. Perhaps you could go find somebody to talk to about your issue with it? Then you can overcome whatever made you so upset. And in the end be supportive for your family.

You can’t know that until you have the experience. It’s that simple.

Sadly it isn’t something that people who work on a false dichotomy will understand.

anx.7549:

I think of Sia the singer, purely because of the name. Just wish she had her hair!

At least she has a pretty name. But I would have given her different hair.. I hate the pigtails but that’s just me.

FirebrandFrog.7603:

owlslovetrees.4051:

I’ve read over some (not all) of the comments here and I see those who are happy to have a trans character and some not. Of the people who say they aren’t happy with this, I’ve seen quite a few people stating that they feel it’s being “pushed” on them or it’s “in your face” or they wish that the devs weren’t putting “real world issues” into GW2.

I’m thinking on this and I seriously wonder if what is bothering people isn’t that there’s a trans character but how this trans character is being included in the game. The citizen that Sya talks to treats her transformation casually, which is good. Not much fuss is made about it. Sya’s reasons for transforming are excellent and relatable. But there are two things about it that stick in my craw and leave a nasty taste in my mouth.

The first thing is the timing. And I believe when people complain about hot button issues and real world things coming to fantasy land, this is at the heart of it. Right now the western world is having a cultural moment concerning acceptance of different lifestyles and Caitlyn Jenner and her transformation is starting to feel rather overexposed in the press. It reminds me very much of the Simpsons episode where the pride parade goes by with the “we’re here, we’re queer, get used to it” chant and Lisa remarks “we’re already used to it”. Not everyone is going to like LGBT people but in terms of generally tolerating it, it seems, and I could be wrong, but a lot of main stream society has sort of just.. generally accepted it. We’re used to it. Some of us support, some of us dislike it and some ( a lot) are generally indifferent and couldn’t care less. Trans people are having their mid-90’s “Ellen moment” it seems, right now and I think a lot of people who are both generally accepting or indifferent and are already “used to it” are feeling a bit overwhelmed with trans-issues being everywhere in the media. This sense of growing tired of hearing about it may reflect more about western culture’s media saturation than it does about the amount of tolerance people have for trans people. They’re used to it, they’re tired of hearing about it and would like to extend their acceptance and move on to other topics.

The second reason, connected to the first is the comment made by the player character after conversing with Sya. The word “brave” being used directly connects this character with the events surrounding Caitlyn Jenner. While I won’t go into is this or is this not bravery, it’s certainly a buzz word that immediately brings up Jenner’s very public transformation and the media saturation around it. Personally, for me, this feels tacky and tokenish.

Had they introduced this trans character at a time when trans issues weren’t all over the media (mainstream and social) and the hype had calmed down a bit and had not included this line about her transformation being “brave” I probably wouldn’t have batted an eye. But that it happened when it did and with this buzzword… Now every time I see her when passing by in LA, I don’t think of Sya as Sya, as herself- I think of her as Caitlyn Jenner in GW2.

And that sucks.

You put all my thoughts surrounding this PERFECTLY.

Everything involving Sya, combined with how horribly they handled a queer couple (Marjoly/Kasmeer) made me feel like ANet’s writers have 0 real idea of how to write real people, only caricatures and facets mirroring real life events.

Which is to say, while the representation is nice, the characters should be written organically. You should write a LGBT character because you want to write a LGBT character, and not because real life suddenly has this big thing going on that you want to inject into a game everyone else is playing.

Also one more point I neglected to make. Using the word “brave” indicates there’s already discrimination in Tyria against trans people. What a shame. It shouldn’t have to be “brave”. It should just… be.

This post is just about details…

I’m not a fan of the “That’s brave of you” / “Being a mesmer makes it easier” part of the conversation. This is a spot where I think the dev team could’ve used some better writing. “That’s brave” is affirming but it’s also pretty shallow. I felt like my character was a bit clueless when that was the best thing I could come up with. (Actually, the first impression I got with that mesmer bit in Sya’s reply was that she was blowing you off because you said something tacky, heh.)

In particular, might be nice to give the player a few options here, including the ability to say “Me too!” One of the ways to avoid tokenism in an open-ended game is to allow for the possibility that maybe the protagonist is going to belong to one of the minority groups they encounter. (A good example of this from elsewhere in the game: if you’re human there’s a point where you’re talking to one of the nobles and you can say your family is from anywhere — Kryta, Ascalon, Elona, Cantha — instead of assuming a “default.”)

I’ve always find the concept of “coming out” annoying and absurd. In an ideal world such a thing should not even exist. Nonetheless it does, for a variety of reasons, and sadly the expectation of having to “come out” if you are gay it’s just a minor part of all the problems that come in hand with our sexuality. The fact remains that being a homosexual is attached to all kind of (extra) negative experiences through life, that should not exist in the first place. We are just people, and while some might not make an issue out of stares of disgust, angry comments on the street, and/or other kind of expressions, others are affected very deeply by this, it feels like being kicked on the nuts even while you are down.
I say this because I’ve read some comments on people saying that having the trans NPC, more than anything, brings more problems, its unnecessary, inflammatory, etc. And I can see why you would think that, in a different world I’d even agree with you, but right now, in the reality that we live in, acting like the problem doesn’t exist will do nothing to solve it, and so, such little things, like adding the trans NPC or having one of the developers of the game making the Points of Interest videos or something being homosexual, has the opposite effect of the “kick in the nuts when you are down”, it’s the nice reminder that there are people who not only accept you, but that are willing to endure the angry/disapproving comments of some of their customers just to tell you, in their own way, its ok =). So yeah, it’s a pretty nice gesture.
Anyway, I’m off to bed, I guess I just want to say thanks to Anet, it really does mean a lot!

Really disappointed to see that people with differing views on this npc were censored.

I love the line about “being a mesmer makes it easier.” Although some people seem to find that objectionable and respecting their feelings, a bit of magic IRL might make life all around so much easier, really. GJ folks!

Dashingsteel.3410:

Really disappointed to see that people with differing views on this npc were censored.

Think you misread, their views are still there.

owlslovetrees.4051:

Snipped for length

True, and you raise some really good points. But then one has to question what “good timing” is. With such a matter, is there really such a thing. Does waiting to implement such characters after such cultural shifts imply any more organic implementations versus them just existing as they are? One could argue that the cultural shift occurring now has got a lot of people thinking, informed, and generally more supportive, whereas presenting this too early in such a “revolutionary” period (so to call it) creates a lot of conflict, and doing so too late gets a lot of “..and?” emotions, where players may feel as though it’s forced and not relevant or making to big of a deal of something that’s seen everyday. I think that’s why the reaction to the Sylvari love-cluster-thing and KasJory are kind of negative – we’ve hit the point socially where that relationship isn’t really unique but there’s a lot of emphasis in the writing on trying to make it feel kind of foreign and culturally different (in a largely positive way).

The use of ‘brave’ (if it’s a corny token from the media, I don’t really read much about Caitlyn to know), may be heavy-handed, but it is a fitting and more touching word when coming from the hands of great dragon-slayers.

I give ANet a thumbs-up, though. I’m not going to go marching in a pride parade because that pride isn’t mine to be had (it belongs to the LGBTQ community), but I support the notions. What I support from ANet largely though is the implementation of hot topics in the real world. Getting people to think and relate is something I think is really good writing from a thematic standpoint and more intriguing than English-professor-“good”-writing-dialogue. I try to do this as much as possible in D&D groups I run, by forcing the players to deal with an awkwardly real world with stark parallels to thought-provoking topics in history and the current day. They seem to be tortured by it in that the universe isn’t happy-unicorns-fantasy-land and they as people are constantly challenged, but they keep coming back for more. The way I see it, the more profound the world, the more interesting it’s lore is. The same old fantasy wars and kingdoms get fairly old fairly quick, in my book.

okay we have a trans npc that has made many people happy. many of those people that may be part of the lgtb community haven’t probably had the easiest life, and things like this, even if they are a bit token-y, are greatly appreciated.
on the other side, there are some people who don’t like this kind of thing in videogames, because of their own reasons. Those people can just ignore the npc and the topic altogether, but they decide to post and comment on this. It’s of no importance to you, and this wouldn’t be such a big deal if you wouldn’t make it so, you’re the ones making it a big deal and a polemic topic. So don’t complain that you don’t like it because it’s polemic, because it’s only so because of you.

ASP.8093:

In particular, might be nice to give the player a few options here, including the ability to say “Me too!” One of the ways to avoid tokenism in an open-ended game is to allow for the possibility that maybe the protagonist is going to belong to one of the minority groups they encounter.

There’s a lot more to it than that.

The problem I have with it is, which person’s experience is being represented here? There are so many important facets to each person’s experience. I don’t see any depth in this NPC at all so it doesn’t seem to be based on any particular person’s experience. This makes it seem like a token character.

This reminds me of a blog post I read where the author was showcasing some art of black versions of Hermione from Harry Potter. She loved these artworks so much because she herself was African American and had always wished there was a black character in Harry Potter, and she also liked Hermione a lot. So of course there was all this stuff in the post about how she wanted to see her experience represented and whatnot.

What I think the blog author failed to consider is that if a character with African ancestry was in Harry Potter, and it was actually true to the setting and true to JK Rowling’s experience, this hypothetical character would not represent the blog author’s experience at all. Afterall, the book is set in Britain, not the US. African British don’t have the same culture as African Americans. They are actually a completely different people who happen to have similar ancestry and physical appearance.

A realistic character who is true to the setting would not be what this blog author was truly looking for. A character like she wanted would be a token character, since it wouldn’t fit the setting and the book’s author wouldn’t actually have the necessary life experience to give the character true depth.

That’s why earlier I said that the way to create change is to share your own experience by creating your own works or going out and representing your experience somehow, not by asking for or praising token representation.

@minbariguy: Thanks for the conversation. It’s very nice to see someone able to respect another’s position while laying out his/her views.

I’m not sure what I believe in the whole choice issue and perhaps you’re right. I had not considered the possibility of just being bi for the people who could go either way (though I should have). I think there is something that a lot of people forget though. If there is no choice in the matter but people might try something wrong for themselves, that mistake can happen to a hetero- or homosexual. Yes, heterosexuals are likely less pressured by “the social norm” to try things the other way, but there are other forms of pressure. I’m not trying to get something out of what I went through by saying this. It has more to do with the conversation I was responding to when I brought up my story.

Anyhow, thanks again for the conversation. I’m not sure if we ended up in agreement, but you seem like a good person.

One side of the debate was encouraged not to post. It’s blatant unfairness.

Khristophoros.7194:

That’s why earlier I said that the way to create change is to share your own experience by creating your own works or going out and representing your experience somehow, not by asking for or praising token representation.

… You’re assuming no one on the dev team is trans. That’s not a safe assumption to make. For all I know, one of the coders or artists or testers or managers wanted this character to represent their own feelings about their life.

Also, going back to what I wrote earlier, tokenism can be pretty weak, but at least it’s an okay indicator that you’re not going to see a flagrantly hateful depiction in the same work later on.

Deep depictions of characters are nice, but any game with an expansive world is also going to have a lot of background NPCs. Acknowledging that not every one of the random extras is going to be straight adds a bit of depth to the world even if the individual characters themselves are just a name, a procedural face, and a few lines of dialogue.

ASP.8093:

Khristophoros.7194:

That’s why earlier I said that the way to create change is to share your own experience by creating your own works or going out and representing your experience somehow, not by asking for or praising token representation.

… You’re assuming no one on the dev team is trans. That’s not a safe assumption to make. For all I know, one of the coders or artists or testers or managers wanted this character to represent their own feelings about their life.

Also, going back to what I wrote earlier, tokenism can be pretty weak, but at least it’s an okay indicator that you’re not going to see a flagrantly hateful depiction in the same work later on.

Deep depictions of characters are nice, but any game with an expansive world is also going to have a lot of background NPCs. Acknowledging that not every one of the random extras is going to be straight adds a bit of depth to the world even if the individual characters themselves are just a name, a procedural face, and a few lines of dialogue.

I’m not assuming that at all. It just doesn’t appear that the NPC has anything taken from a real person’s experience.

AlbertoAmoni.4362:

I’ve always find the concept of “coming out” annoying and absurd. In an ideal world such a thing should not even exist. Nonetheless it does, for a variety of reasons, and sadly the expectation of having to “come out” if you are gay it’s just a minor part of all the problems that come in hand with our sexuality. The fact remains that being a homosexual is attached to all kind of (extra) negative experiences through life, that should not exist in the first place. We are just people, and while some might not make an issue out of stares of disgust, angry comments on the street, and/or other kind of expressions, others are affected very deeply by this, it feels like being kicked on the nuts even while you are down.
I say this because I’ve read some comments on people saying that having the trans NPC, more than anything, brings more problems, its unnecessary, inflammatory, etc. And I can see why you would think that, in a different world I’d even agree with you, but right now, in the reality that we live in, acting like the problem doesn’t exist will do nothing to solve it, and so, such little things, like adding the trans NPC or having one of the developers of the game making the Points of Interest videos or something being homosexual, has the opposite effect of the “kick in the nuts when you are down”, it’s the nice reminder that there are people who not only accept you, but that are willing to endure the angry/disapproving comments of some of their customers just to tell you, in their own way, its ok =). So yeah, it’s a pretty nice gesture.
Anyway, I’m off to bed, I guess I just want to say thanks to Anet, it really does mean a lot!

Alberto you raised some really good points there. ‘Coming Out’ and I detest that phrase, is something I have found that we do usually for other people, as in my experience people have always wrongly assumed I was straight. I had to do the whole CO thing so many times to the usual ’OMG I had no idea you were gay/lesbian, when did it happen?"

It never did happen, I was never in a closet – but unfortunately society makes people feel as if they are and if they need to stay hidden away.

Gaile Gray.6029:

However… I believe we should be able to have a conversation about this without the moderator team being required to lock the thread. Don’t you agree? Especially when, as several forum members have pointed out, this is one NPC with a few lines of dialogue who it not part of the story or of an event. You may interact with her, or not, as you choose. Just as you may join this thread, or not. But if you do…

If you feel negatively towards the presence of this NPC, this optional, easily-avoided, easily-ignored NPC, please avoid her in the game and please consider not posting in this thread unless you can do so with respectful and constructive comments.

Thanks.

Dashingsteel.3410:

One side of the debate was encouraged not to post. It’s blatant unfairness.

How is asking you to be constructive and respectful unfair?

reapex.8546:

Dashingsteel.3410:

Really disappointed to see that people with differing views on this npc were censored.

Think you misread, their views are still there.

Eh, not to be that guy because this is a topic that i want to avoid like the plague but Gaile did say:

“If you feel negatively towards the presence of this NPC, this optional, easily-avoided, easily-ignored NPC, please avoid her in the game and please consider not posting in this thread unless you can do so with respectful and constructive comments.”

While this is not saying hey don’t post negative commentary on this NPC, it IS saying that negative commentary of this NPC will be under extraordinary scrutiny specifically because Anet obviously favors exclusively positive comments on their inclusive of a transgender NPC.

This is not censorship in a very explicit way but it does have a self-censoring element to it, because anyone saying something that they feel is counter-narrative or contentious will be leery of posting for fear of repercussions (infractions/bans/etc.).

It’s really just a weasel way to deal with thoughts and opinions you oppose.

This is assuming of course that they do not literally mean: “unless you can do so with respectful and constructive comments.” because let’s face it, 99/100 times this kind of wording arises it’s just a ruse to make someone seem like they are not shutting someone’s comments out.

Kury.8210:

Anyhow, thanks again for the conversation. I’m not sure if we ended up in agreement, but you seem like a good person.

Ditto. And maybe we didn’t exactly agree on all points, but it’s much more important that we were able to respect each other. Cheers!

Ooooooh. I am going to go find her immediately! This is great! Keep being awesome, ANet!

Reading this thread one should note that that assorted vile statements, insults, accusations of every shade of bigotry and general belligerence are a-OK so long as “your heart is in the right place”. Which is trademark of progressives at large and SJWs in particular, but what is new under the sun?

I’d also like to draw attention to the statement from earlier in the thread:

No that implies that Kasmeer is a transgender too! Rejoice!

Setting aside the ridiculousness of “all mesmers must be trans” (mine sure as hell isn’t last I checked); how do lesbians in the audience feel about this? Cheese and marginal usefulness in actual fighting aside, Kas and Marjory play a significant part in the story and are GW2’s acknowledged “gay power couple”. How, then, does this attempt at a hijack look?

Xdmatt.3958:

Reading this thread one should note that that assorted vile statements, insults, accusations of every shade of bigotry and general belligerence are a-OK so long as “your heart is in the right place”. Which is trademark of progressives at large and SJWs in particular, but what is new under the sun?

Bigotry – intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

Intolerance and disagreement are not the same thing.

Furthermore, tolerance doesn’t mean acceptance. What it means is you’re civil and as understanding as you can be towards people who you disagree with or dislike.

Only one side of the debate was asked to be respectful.