Guild Wars 2

ASP.8093:

You’re assuming no one on the dev team is trans. That’s not a safe assumption to make. For all I know, one of the coders or artists or testers or managers wanted this character to represent their own feelings about their life.

That’s exactly what happened. A dev currently transitioning put her in.
https://twitter.com/PaschBlue/status/613515181985914880

Think the timing with the whole Jenner thing is just a coincidence

Nikkle.4013:

ASP.8093:

You’re assuming no one on the dev team is trans. That’s not a safe assumption to make. For all I know, one of the coders or artists or testers or managers wanted this character to represent their own feelings about their life.

That’s exactly what happened. A dev currently transitioning put her in.
https://twitter.com/PaschBlue/status/613515181985914880

Think the timing with the whole Jenner thing is just a coincidence

It’s not surprising that a trans dev was the one who put it there but at the same time it really does end up being a token character because it doesn’t help me learn about or even become aware of this dev’s experience.

However, I’m not saying it would be appropriate to make the character really deep and everything. There are tons of devs at Anet and they’d all have a story to share if you asked them, but that’s not what this game is about.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Only one side of the debate was asked to be respectful.

Maybe that’s because the motivation of one side of the debate is to defend the rights of people to live their lives free of harassment or judgement, while the motivation of the other side of the debate is simply to defend the rights of people to harass and judge them? The two sides are not ethically equivalent.

Just a thought.

minbariguy.7504:

Dashingsteel.3410:

Only one side of the debate was asked to be respectful.

Maybe that’s because the motivation of one side of the debate is to defend the rights of people to live their lives free of harassment or judgement, while the motivation of the other side of the debate is simply to defend the rights of people to harass and judge them? The two sides are not ethically equivalent.

Just a thought.

That is NOT it and is a very dangerous viewpoint to take.

To get things back on track, I feel I need to point out that while one single non-storyline NPC doesn’t seem like a big deal, the fact that Anet took the idea and put it in game is like tipping your hat to the community. Straight people like me will never fully understand what it’s like to be treated like a side show or a second-class citizen. One that is forced to hide or just not be open about their lifestyle choice, for fear of resentment. But while I can’t imagine being in their shoes, I can appreciate the fact that they do have a much harder life, and showing them respect is the least I can do to make them feel better.

It is “brave” of someone to be open about being an LBGT. The world as a whole, today, isn’t used to them, even though society in the days of the Romans, and even Asian cultures like the Samurai of Japan were more open to homosexuality or a man living as a woman. It wasn’t deemed “evil” or “wrong” until more modern times. But times change, and the more open we can be about topics like this (without the toxic hate), the closer we can be to a society that doesn’t see them as abnormal.

Sarevok.2638:

That is NOT it and is a very dangerous viewpoint to take.

Care to elaborate? In what way is my viewpoint dangerous?

Edit to add: Look at the posts directly above and below me (by Rukhas and Sogradde respectively, in case these posts are deleted later). I rest my case.

Great, so people who play games to leave reality behind for a while get force-fed the stuff that’s shoved down our throats everywhere. Same-sex relationships, transgender NPCs.. What’s coming next? Demonization of masculinity? “Healthy-at-every-size” promotion?

Well, as long as we’re politically correct, by force if necessary..

Minbariguy, you have something of importance to say?

Khristophoros.7194:

My opinion is not from bigotry. I have a close family member who has been in transition for a few years and I don’t accept it. That is a much more real experience on the issue than most people have.

See… that’s the problem. Your “acceptance” means jack kitten. You don’t get to choose whether it’s acceptable or not. You get to shut your mouth and let other people choose how they want to live their lives.

Your opinion gets to be dismissed without merit, because that is all it deserves.

Rukhas.2597:

Minbariguy, you have something of importance to say?

Yes. And I have already said it.

chemiclord.3978:

Khristophoros.7194:

My opinion is not from bigotry. I have a close family member who has been in transition for a few years and I don’t accept it. That is a much more real experience on the issue than most people have.

See… that’s the problem. Your “acceptance” means jack kitten. You don’t get to choose whether it’s acceptable or not. You get to shut your mouth and let other people choose how they want to live their lives.

Your opinion gets to be dismissed without merit, because that is all it deserves.

When the person is close to me it matters. It’s up to them if they want to go ahead and transition regardless of what I think, but there will be consequences because they cannot ask me to do or think what they want.

There are social and emotional complications for me that they cause by transitioning, so it’s not fair for them to ask me to continue to play the same role in their life that I did before.

All tolerance is, is not trying to stop them from what I truly believe in my heart is the wrong choice.

Lol this game just wants to be different SOOOO bad. Notice how there isn’t a single straight white male in Destiny’s Edge 2.0. Anet really just wants to push an agenda to a small minority to look progressive, and make us seem like we’re the bad guys for not supporting it. I wouldn’t even be bothered by this if my only reply Symon wasn’t “YOU’RE SO BRAVE!!!”

Bloodstealer.5978:

See .. this is why ANET should of steered clear of this kind of attempt at inclusiveness.. small and of little consequence to the game per say.. but that small thing has already begun to ignite that very hot potato Chronos is referring to.
Many of us genuinely don’t have any issues with LGBT inclusion and their preferences, but we also know and understand that not everyone shares that same level of acceptance, tolerance, acknowledgement and understanding around the globe.. its cruddy yes but it’s a fact. MMO’s or games in general are not the place to fight these kind of stigmas and hot topics and for good reason…
If this is allowed to escalate within game then maybe ANET need to start placing warning on boxes, or across splash screens and raise the age bar.. because this isn’t something that young kids need to get embroiled in when playing .. a game.

So do yourself and others in the LGBT community a favour and take your aggressive intent out of the thread because your actually the one who is doing their utmost to turn it into the cat fight many of us are are saying we would prefer to avoid.

And I disagree. I think this is the PERFECT place to fight these stigmas.

The art and entertainment we experience is the PERFECT place to challenge societal mores and rules. The best, most enduring tales we pass on to future generations are the ones that force us to think about the world around us and how we view it.

Video games need more like this, more things that make players reflect on themselves and ask if there is something more they can learn… because the answer is almost always “yes.”

Well, it took a while but its now back in the toilet.

AmFah.4389:

Lol this game just wants to be different SOOOO bad. Notice how there isn’t a single straight white male in Destiny’s Edge 2.0.

Why does it matter that there isn’t a 100% white (Braham is pretty dark skinned but is also Eir’s son, and Eir is on the fairer end of the skin tone spectrum) male character in DE 2.0? There are straight, white male characters throughout the game. As a side note, a majority of the human and norn characters (NPC and player characters) have light skin. Most Asura I see around also have light colored skin. You have plenty of light skinned characters to keep you happy.

anx.7549:

Great, so people who play games to leave reality behind for a while get force-fed the stuff that’s shoved down our throats everywhere. Same-sex relationships, transgender NPCs.. What’s coming next? Demonization of masculinity? “Healthy-at-every-size” promotion?

Heterosexuality…. ? Oh wait… that’s ok to have that shoved down our throats.

Oh and Rukhas, if you are leaving the game, can I please have your stuff?

this is precisely the type of double standard attitude that just reflects blatant homophobia disguised as something else.
“leave reality behind” but has no trouble with a game that has war, poverty, murder, betrayal, cruelty, etc…
but when there’s a gay couple or a trans character or anything lgbt related, then it’s some sort of “agenda” and “shoved down their throats” no matter if heterosexuality has been “shoven down” OUR throats time after time.

Coso you mis-read what I wrote. I was quoting an above poster.

anx.7549:

Coso you mis-read what I wrote. I was quoting an above poster.

yep sorry, I thought I was quoting the original post.
sorry man

S’ok And I’m a girl lol hehe

chemiclord.3978:

Khristophoros.7194:

My opinion is not from bigotry. I have a close family member who has been in transition for a few years and I don’t accept it. That is a much more real experience on the issue than most people have.

See… that’s the problem. Your “acceptance” means jack kitten. You don’t get to choose whether it’s acceptable or not. You get to shut your mouth and let other people choose how they want to live their lives.

Your opinion gets to be dismissed without merit, because that is all it deserves.

Sorry to break it to you, but that isn’t how society works. At least not outside of the “safe spaces” of Tumblr. There are things acceptable and unacceptable, both on personal and societal level.

And since you are so glib with your blanket statements, I suggest that you take your own advice. What goes for the goose goes for the gander, does it not?

coso.9173:

anx.7549:

Great, so people who play games to leave reality behind for a while get force-fed the stuff that’s shoved down our throats everywhere. Same-sex relationships, transgender NPCs.. What’s coming next? Demonization of masculinity? “Healthy-at-every-size” promotion?

Heterosexuality…. ? Oh wait… that’s ok to have that shoved down our throats.

Oh and Rukhas, if you are leaving the game, can I please have your stuff?

this is precisely the type of double standard attitude that just reflects blatant homophobia disguised as something else.
“leave reality behind” but has no trouble with a game that has war, poverty, murder, betrayal, cruelty, etc…
but when there’s a gay couple or a trans character or anything lgbt related, then it’s some sort of “agenda” and “shoved down their throats” no matter if heterosexuality has been “shoven down” OUR throats time after time.

I think what he meant was “leave behind current IRL issues that people talk about incessantly”

so people don’t talk about poverty and war and murder all the time?
not true, they do too.
when someone plays a game and has no trouble with violence, murder, war, genocide, and then looks at a trans npc or a gay couple who love eachother, and think that doesn’t belong in a game, then we have a problem.

chemiclord.3978:

Bloodstealer.5978:

See .. this is why ANET should of steered clear of this kind of attempt at inclusiveness.. small and of little consequence to the game per say.. but that small thing has already begun to ignite that very hot potato Chronos is referring to.
Many of us genuinely don’t have any issues with LGBT inclusion and their preferences, but we also know and understand that not everyone shares that same level of acceptance, tolerance, acknowledgement and understanding around the globe.. its cruddy yes but it’s a fact. MMO’s or games in general are not the place to fight these kind of stigmas and hot topics and for good reason…
If this is allowed to escalate within game then maybe ANET need to start placing warning on boxes, or across splash screens and raise the age bar.. because this isn’t something that young kids need to get embroiled in when playing .. a game.

So do yourself and others in the LGBT community a favour and take your aggressive intent out of the thread because your actually the one who is doing their utmost to turn it into the cat fight many of us are are saying we would prefer to avoid.

And I disagree. I think this is the PERFECT place to fight these stigmas.

The art and entertainment we experience is the PERFECT place to challenge societal mores and rules. The best, most enduring tales we pass on to future generations are the ones that force us to think about the world around us and how we view it.

Video games need more like this, more things that make players reflect on themselves and ask if there is something more they can learn… because the answer is almost always “yes.”

There’s a time and a place. You can’t just inject it into every game, movie, TV, show, book, etc…

Make a game about it. Write a book about it. Make a TV show about it.

Create a work that expresses an authentic experience that you want to share with the world. It doesn’t have to be verbatim but it should be based on something real.

That’s what some people are actually doing and it actually pushes the change you want.

coso.9173:

so people don’t talk about poverty and war and murder all the time?
not true, they do too.
when someone plays a game and has no trouble with violence, murder, war, genocide, and then looks at a trans npc or a gay couple who love eachother, and think that doesn’t belong in a game, then we have a problem.

I think it really depends on the context. When it comes off as a token thing then you’re going to get people complaining about it.

so apparently if a game doesn’t have only straight people then it needs some special permission? I think the opposite, if you’re going to make a game that doesn’t reflect society as it really is, you should have a reason.
apparently now having a game that reflects more than straight people is also part of a hidden agenda.

Xdmatt.3958:

Sorry to break it to you, but that isn’t how society works. At least not outside of the “safe spaces” of Tumblr. There are things acceptable and unacceptable, both on personal and societal level.

And since you are so glib with your blanket statements, I suggest that you take your own advice. What goes for the goose goes for the gander, does it not?

Then that’s a problem with society that needs immediate correction. Because it’s wrong.

What you think is “unacceptable” is completely irrelevant. Every person has the right to self-determination. You do NOT have the right to do anything but accept that self-determination, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you.

Take your false equivalence somewhere else.

Khristophoros.7194:

I think what he meant was “leave behind current IRL issues that people talk about incessantly”

I doubt it. War and politics are two major things that are current IRL issues that people talk about all the time that are present in the world of GW2 and people don’t seem to have a problem with that.

But a gay, lesbian, or trans character shows up and suddenly people are like “OMG, real life, oh noes!”

Let’s be honest. This excuse of “I have no problem with X-group of people, I just don’t want to see them in-game because Real Life” is a pretty weak excuse, and no one is buying it.

minbariguy.7504:

Khristophoros.7194:

I think what he meant was “leave behind current IRL issues that people talk about incessantly”

I doubt it. War and politics are two major things that are current IRL issues that people talk about all the time that are present in the world of GW2 and people don’t seem to have a problem with that.

But a gay, lesbian, or trans character shows up and suddenly people are like “OMG, real life, oh noes!”

Let’s be honest. This excuse of “I have no problem with X-group of people, I just don’t want to see them in-game because Real Life” is a pretty weak excuse, and no one is buying it.

my point exactly. the “real life problems” is one of the weakest arguments I’ve encountered in videogame forums, and yet it is one of the ones that appear the most.
people will always try to hide their homophobia because it’s known that it’s not seen as a good thing. but it’s easy to see through them most of the time.

Self-determination is fine but there are always consequences. When your choices offend other people they have the right to complain.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Self-determination is fine but there are always consequences. When your choices offend other people they have the right to complain.

Being offended and complaining is one thing. Telling someone to die because they disagree with you is another. (Not that you made the die comment)

coso.9173:

anx.7549:

Great, so people who play games to leave reality behind for a while get force-fed the stuff that’s shoved down our throats everywhere. Same-sex relationships, transgender NPCs.. What’s coming next? Demonization of masculinity? “Healthy-at-every-size” promotion?

Heterosexuality…. ? Oh wait… that’s ok to have that shoved down our throats.

Oh and Rukhas, if you are leaving the game, can I please have your stuff?

this is precisely the type of double standard attitude that just reflects blatant homophobia disguised as something else.
“leave reality behind” but has no trouble with a game that has war, poverty, murder, betrayal, cruelty, etc…
but when there’s a gay couple or a trans character or anything lgbt related, then it’s some sort of “agenda” and “shoved down their throats” no matter if heterosexuality has been “shoven down” OUR throats time after time.

Depending on the study but on average 2 to 7% of people identify as LGBT. So the fact that most games dipict the norm for upwards of 90% of people is shoving it down your throat. God shame on games for doing that.

anx.7549:

Dashingsteel.3410:

Self-determination is fine but there are always consequences. When your choices offend other people they have the right to complain.

Being offended and complaining is one thing. Telling someone to die because they disagree with you is another. (Not that you made the die comment)

And telling somebody that their opinion is invalid is bigoted and disrespectful. (not @ you lol)

1 lesbian couple and 1 trans character is WAAAAAAAAAAAAy lower than the 2to 7% of the population number you just gave.
by that number most games should have at least one lgbt character, and MMOs should have many more, considering how many characters are there in the game.

coso.9173:

1 lesbian couple and 1 trans character is WAAAAAAAAAAAAy lower than the 2to 7% of the population number you just gave.
by that number most games should have at least one lgbt character, and MMOs should have many more, considering how many characters are there in the game.

They should have way more ugly people too. The NPCs in GW2 are all beautiful. x.x

Dashingsteel.3410:

Self-determination is fine but there are always consequences. When your choices offend other people they have the right to complain.

No. Not really.

I do apologize for sounding combative earlier on this score, but this really is a matter of false equivalence. Your (and I mean this in the general usage, not specifically directed towards you) discomfort is not REMOTELY a good enough excuse to complain about someone else’s life choices.

The same thing goes with being gay, lesbian, black, asian, hispanic, Muslim, Jewish, or any other “minority” or “lifestyle” you wish to pick here.

And just in case someone wants to try and go down this slippery slope, no this isn’t comparable to pedophilia or beastality or any other “lifestyle” that inherently includes someone not able or not mature enough to properly give consent.

Someone choosing to change their appearance to fit their gender identity DOESN’T hurt you. It doesn’t change you. Unless YOU allow it to do so. At that point, it becomes YOUR problem, and your complaints deserve nothing but to be dismissed without merit.

coso.9173:

1 lesbian couple and 1 trans character is WAAAAAAAAAAAAy lower than the 2to 7% of the population number you just gave.
by that number most games should have at least one lgbt character, and MMOs should have many more, considering how many characters are there in the game.

3 major couples so far,

Caithe/ fiolin can’t spell her name

Kas / maj

Quenn/ log arnt actually a couple but close enough I guess

So we are sitting at 66% right now, I would say that is dam good represention

have you ever wondered if “important questions” could be in fact different for others? have you wondered than maybe this IS an important topic to many people on the forums?

I’m sure some of the mods/devs are glad we are not asking ‘Is HoM up yet’

Bacon seems kind of angry…. Must not have started the morning with a good breakfast.

coso.9173:

have you ever wondered if “important questions” could be in fact different for others? have you wondered than maybe this IS an important topic to many people on the forums?

This is not important. Take it to your guild chat if you want to discuss it. There are way more important issues in the game then this. This whole thread is just 12 year old’s being passive aggressive with each other. Like burning damage, skill bugs, lack of story to cover the changes to la, pvp in balance. These are just a few things that are more important. Better yet please.bring back the off topic board for threads like these.

Do we know anything about the character other than their transgender nature ?

Or are we making a point that that nature is what defines them ?

Seems awfully like an effort to include a token more than anything else.

Either way, Anet’s game. Anet’s decision. Don’t like, don’t interact, or don’t play.

Shinji.2063:

coso.9173:

1 lesbian couple and 1 trans character is WAAAAAAAAAAAAy lower than the 2to 7% of the population number you just gave.
by that number most games should have at least one lgbt character, and MMOs should have many more, considering how many characters are there in the game.

3 major couples so far,

Caithe/ fiolin can’t spell her name

Kas / maj

Quenn/ log arnt actually a couple but close enough I guess

So we are sitting at 66% right now, I would say that is dam good represention

I actually really love the fact that they put in homosexual relationships between some of the Sylvari characters. I don’t perceive this as token inclusion like I often do because it adds depth to the Sylvari lore. Generally in Sylvari romance, gender is not important. This is a unique feature of the race that they’ve successfully created examples of in the story. That’s why I don’t see it as a token inclusion.

Baconplease.1657:

This is not important.

But hey, thanks for taking the time to bump the thread anyway! Twice. Much appreciated!

Baconplease.1657:

This is not important. Take it to your guild chat if you want to discuss it. There are way more important issues in the game then this. This whole thread is just 12 year old’s being passive aggressive with each other. Like burning damage, skill bugs, lack of story to cover the changes to la, pvp in balance. These are just a few things that are more important. Better yet please.bring back the off topic board for threads like these.

You have some really odd priorities.

chemiclord.3978:

Baconplease.1657:

This is not important. Take it to your guild chat if you want to discuss it. There are way more important issues in the game then this. This whole thread is just 12 year old’s being passive aggressive with each other. Like burning damage, skill bugs, lack of story to cover the changes to la, pvp in balance. These are just a few things that are more important. Better yet please.bring back the off topic board for threads like these.

You have some really odd priorities.

If my prerogative is game balance and that is weird, then what does that make this thread? I’m done now. The hive mind here is like talking to a wall. Goodbye.

Baconplease.1657:

If my prerogative is game balance and that is weird, then what does that make this thread? I’m done now. The hive mind here is like talking to a wall. Goodbye.

Wow, three posts in the span of 20 minutes. This thread can’t be that unimportant if it’s got you riled up this much.

The Hive Mind bids you farewell.

chemiclord.3978:

Baconplease.1657:

This is not important. Take it to your guild chat if you want to discuss it. There are way more important issues in the game then this. This whole thread is just 12 year old’s being passive aggressive with each other. Like burning damage, skill bugs, lack of story to cover the changes to la, pvp in balance. These are just a few things that are more important. Better yet please.bring back the off topic board for threads like these.

You have some really odd priorities.

If my prerogative is game balance and that is weird, then what does that make this thread? I’m done now. The hive mind here is like talking to a wall. Goodbye.

Khristophoros.7194:

It’s not surprising that a trans dev was the one who put it there but at the same time it really does end up being a token character because it doesn’t help me learn about or even become aware of this dev’s experience.

Consider that every minority character doesn’t have to be a learning experience packaged up nicely for the majority. If all Sya accomplishes is making a couple of trans folks feel included in a game that previously didn’t really acknowledge them (despite the Total Makeover Kit making magically changing your gender presentation a literal reality in play), that’s still likely serving her purpose.

Note how this thread started, after all: not straight cis people going, “OMG, Sya opened my eyes!” or anything, just some LGBT folk saying “Seeing Sya in the game made me happy.”

Blackworm.2167:

Testudo.4620:

honestly it’s just really concerning how much people will say this ‘agenda’ is being pushed down their throats and then when something subtle and progressive is implemented, they go out of their way to let everyone know how personally offended they are.

Oh, the irony.

okay continue to be upset about a group of people who have done nothing to you while they are attacked for existing and then we can see who gets to be offended

Khristophoros.7194:

This is an extremely disrespectful thing for you to say. You have no idea what my experience is like.

I was actually very accepting of transgender people until this happened. I’d like to see you just accept it if it happened to you.

so now you dislike an entire group of people with vastly different personalities each just because someone pointed out your intolerance. doesn’t seem like it was hard for you.

Khristophoros.7194:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Halan.7931:

chemiclord.3978:

What you think is “unacceptable” is completely irrelevant. Every person has the right to self-determination. You do NOT have the right to do anything but accept that self-determination, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you.

If someone says he’s Napoleon or Winston Churchill doesn’t make it true, and if he insists – may end in mental clinic. But trans is for some reason encouraged?

You can say “I’m a pretty princess” all you want, but being born with a dingdingdong makes you a dude.

I’m intolerant to perverted mockery of normal gender roles.

Tell that to the species that normally change their sex. Is that a perverted mockery also?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_hermaphroditism

It’s logically flawed to justify something with examples from other species. Female spiders devour their mates. Ducks breed by the males forcing themselves on the females.

It shows that male/female is not as fixed as many think but is a lot more fluid and can change depending on hormones or other as yet unknown factors. It only appears fixed to us as our species is not as plastic in this area. But it doesn’t mean that our species is not plastic and able to change. People who are trans were born, that is, it’s innate, with a gender identity that doesn’t match their sex and it’s not unreasonable for them to wish to align the two.